“Plants could feel MORE than animals” - Hunter debates vegan.

well I think that if you know you catch a fish and you immediately you know put it on its way you're trying to end the suffering as soon as possible and now I'm feeding this to my family you've created this suffering you're not ending this stuff and you've created the suffering I created the suffering to feed my families versus creating healthy relationships or you have to feed them the fish I don't and then what do I feed them plant-based foods and stuff are you 100 like plant like do plants feel like I mean you know I mean if you're trying to make the argument that animals we don't know any more that plants feel than the animals do we really do we do hey everyone I'm just interrupting this video briefly to tell you all about today's very exciting sponsor which is Omni vegan dog food did you know that in a 2022 study of over 2 600 dogs the researchers concluded the pooled evidence to date indicates that the healthiest and least hazardous dietary choices for dogs are actually 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to be healthy and happy while also protecting the environment and of course other animals then you can get 60 off your first order of one Omni item by clicking the link in my description and using the code ed60 at checkout alright let's get back to the video at hand but a huge thank you to Omni vegan dog food for sponsoring today's video hi Victor nice to meet you my name is Ed thank you today I'm at Boston University I have a sign that says why aren't you vegan yet you very kindly sat down so I'd love to know what your response to that question is you know so I I come from a family of you know like fishermen not commercial fishermen but just hobby fishermen and um but what about now in Boston um I haven't actually been fishing or hunting in the last couple ever in Boston and then just generally for like the last year or so okay so it's not something that you're doing right now and maybe we'll Circle back and come back to this topic at the end because I think it's interesting but maybe not as relevant to your personal situation now yeah um what animal products you consuming now and then why are you consuming them well let's see I had uh Subway for you know like lunch steak and cheese I don't think the quality of that beef is too good I don't necessarily believe in the industry too much but like well I supported that um it was just that I didn't think too deep about it I mean you can't really always be thinking so deep about things in life I'm like all right let's go get a Subway because I'm in a rush to get the class and that's just what it was in that moment yeah absolutely that was what it was in that moment but do do situations or behaviors that that can inflict harm onto others do they demand or do they deserve some form of consideration I I think it depends because we don't really know how conscious animals are do we what do you think I think certain animals are more conscious than others I I have a hard time eating octopus yeah I mean um you know I would never be able to eat like a a mammal dolphin you know what I mean like things just because I feel like they're more conscious and like they think and maybe like when they're being hunted they're really feeling like possibly like a human could and I just couldn't you know eat those kind of animals now like a chicken or like a cow like are they really are they are they conscious are they thinking are they feeling I don't know what do you say feeling yeah when you what do you mean by feeling well the only way I know how to feel as a human that's all I can you know that's all I can relate to what creates feeling for you um a certain part of the brain I'm not a neurologist but there's a certain part of the brain that is um you know structured for emotion and made for emotion so that part of the brain and of course there's emotional feeling but there's also physical feeling as well do you think animals have the capacity to have physical feelings I I wonder if it's like a reflex I really do because like fish for they act really like kind of like they're like having reflexes to like certain things going on I don't know what they act they can't they can't they don't have the vocal capacities to make nicely so it's like okay so they don't have vocal capacities now they're not expressing so they have an attractive part of the brain that is an emotional part of the brain so are they really feeling if they're not vocalizing well let's let's put it this way um obviously there are certain things that we do when we have a sensation of pain and obviously we might scream and obviously cows pigs they do uh vocally emit noises dogs do as well but beyond that there are also things that happen such as dilation of pupils you know uh heavy breathing you know heart rate can increase things that we can defecate you know there are certain things like that they're indicative of a sensational experience Beyond just the vocalization of that so other animals do have those same biological markers or they do display the same biological behaviors that we do and the reason I asked the thing about why do youth have feelings was to emphasize that feeling in terms of like pain is based on a nervous system that sends the signal up to the brain that receives that and then creates a sensation of pain and there's also the evolutionary perspective you know we feel pain to avoid danger but then also other other animals also have the same reason evolutionary speaking to experience pain and suffering like we do because it's a survival mechanism that allows us to avoid things like Flames or things that might cause us harm and suffering and pain it's about survival at the end of the day yes I agree it is about survival but um you know just because an animal is equipped for surviving and has these reflexes for surviving doesn't mean that it's conscious and feeling I don't think that you have to put those to I don't think one equals another necessarily okay so with that in mind then can we do anything we want to a cow or a chicken or a pig because they don't have as you might argue or trying to argue they don't have feelings well if they don't have feelings and it's is it like it almost it I don't want to say you know inanimate just seems like so it doesn't seem like the wrong word but if they're not feeling then what's going on there that like why why can't why can't we eat them why can't we not quite do anything to them burn them alive stop them do that for that would almost be like kind of like a a useless reason you know burning them alive doesn't well I I don't I don't feel fun from making animal suffer but how can they suffer if they don't feel well then if they're not feeling or suffering it doesn't matter I'm still not doing it because I I because I'm not I'm not feeling Joy from that but if someone does feel Joy does that make it okay um no it doesn't not in that case because making a something suffer for no good reason how can they suffer if they don't feel well then if they don't they don't have to I'm saying if that person is feeling Joy from what they could perceive as animal suffering then they they argument the animals don't feel yes I'm saying it's a possibility and I don't know okay but what did you what but the reason that you're against someone like setting an animal on fire for example is because you are concerned that they have the capacity to suffer yeah so if you have the concern that the other capacity to suffer why don't you put that concern into other situations where they also could potentially in your eyes have the capacity to suffer such as when they've been fished or such as when they've been found and slaughtered I do but since I'm not I'm not I'm not certain I'm only you know like kind of 50 on 50 50 50 on it or maybe not even that it's not enough for me to concern and I'm and that's just what it is you know so but it's enough for you to say that someone shouldn't do certain things to animals but the things that you want to do to animals are okay to do well I think that if you know you catch a fish and you immediately you know put it on its way you're trying to end the suffering as soon as possible and now I'm feeding this to my family you've created this suffering you're not ending this stuff and you've created the suffering I created the suffering to feed my families versus creating healthy relationships or you have to feed them the fish I don't and then what do I feed them plant-based foods and stuff are you 100 like plant like do plants feel like I mean you know I mean if you're trying to make the argument that animals we don't know any more that plants feel than the animals do no we really do we do yeah I mean in the same way that we have an understanding that we feel based on certain biological markers evolutionary functions and also responses these animals also display them we can say I feel and this human likely feels the same way I do but we just can't do that with animals we just can't we can dolphins recognize themselves in the mirrors we can say that they react certain ways but they can't feel pain I said Dolphins likely can and that's why I would never eat a mammal Dolphins but why can dolphins because they're just so much more intelligent than other animals but where's that stemming from the recognizing themselves in mirrors solving certain puzzles but they're actually but there are humans who maybe have severe learning difficulties who maybe not be self-aware but that doesn't mean they don't feel pain if we were to stab them well I mean I as a human if you're born a human you have human rights so that's where that stems from but the the argument you're making now is that worth of life is dependent on the recognition of oneself so being able to see oneself in the mirror know that is oneself but the argument I would make is there are humans who maybe lack that ability due to certain learning difficulties but their their ability to feel pain isn't then disregarded they still feel pain regardless of that lack of self-awareness when looking into the mirror well exactly they feel pain which is why they're human beings and why they feel well that's not why they're human beings but the the the the the requirement to feel pain and suffer doesn't stem from the understanding of you know seeing oneself in the mirror and understanding that is oneself because feelings like pain and suffering are separate from a conscious awareness of oneself and I'm not saying animals don't have that I do think that animals are aware of oneself even if they're not necessarily recognize that in the mirror but I'm saying the two aren't inextricably tied to one another I I understand what you're saying and I don't think that we're necessarily like disagreeing on too much I mean humans likely you know humans almost all humans I mean from what you're saying feel pain and have their you know ability to suffer and feel emotion and likely some animals do too but do you believe that all animals have the same ability to suffer and feel emotion no not the same ability I don't think that an aphid for example has the uh the same ability as say that of a cow or a pig or a dolphin or or a primate so I'm not saying that all animals feel and experience in the exact same way but I am making the argument or trying to at least that the animals who we kill have experiences and the capacity to experience that makes their their life and their experiences they have worthy of our consideration so whilst we can't we can't definitively say that cow's stuff is the same way as we do or you know maybe they suffer more we we don't know that's the point right whilst we can't say that they do or don't what we we can surmise based on certain things like biology and you know reactions and things like that is that they do have an experience and that experience in and of itself means that we should view their life as having or deserving consideration that makes doing the things that we do to the morally role I see where you're coming from and I think that's Noble I think it's very good to consider other like living beings although I mean would you think that all human all human beings today in this globe on the globe can be vegans I don't think they can because not everybody has that option maybe you and me do today I agree I agree not everyone does but the point the reason why I'm here and the reason why the banner says why aren't you vegan yet is to highlight that point that there may be people in the world who can't and I'm not going to argue against that but it's about what we can do you and I in this moment right now what can we do and if we can be vegan then that conversation is different to can other people be vegan because it's specifically about the capacities that you and I have yeah I understand that and but like I'm going back to just what I believe in in like the argument that I came here I sat down here today with which is you know I'm I'm not sure I'm not certain of like what these animals are feeling and it's just not enough for me to be vegan because that would be a pretty big Catalyst in my life as far as dieting and like you know eating goes so but it interestingly it is enough for you to be against certain other things like you know the the as I said before sitting an animal on fire or something you are against doing certain things to animals so there is an obvious contradiction which is the things that you don't want to do you're against but the things that you do want to do all of a sudden this justification holds up but to me that seems hypocritical because it should be the we don't do anything that caused suffering to an animal when we can avoid it or everything's okay in that regards well I mean I didn't I believe that you can kill an animal and then eat it and then that I feel like that could be okay but I feel like making in making an animal suffer and not necessarily getting any more meat or any more food or any more benefit from this might not be so okay and that's like that's what I stood for absolutely but what you're against is the suffering and let's say sang an animal on fire which is the example we've been using is one of the most horrific things we could do to an animal who can suffer um that doesn't mean that in and of itself doing something that you know does less suffering to the animal is then Justified as a result of that when we have something that can cause even less suffering overall and the point the reason why I use an extreme example like this sign on fire is to illustrate that that when push comes to shove we don't like it because it causes animal suffering so the argument that I'm making is that if we're against suffering of animals then we should do what we can to reduce it as much as we can and in that sense that's what leads me to veganism because whilst you know there are situations where we can kill an animal that causes less suffering than setting them on fire of course if there's a situation where you don't have to cause any suffering to an animal that is the preferable thing for to choose okay so you you for the most part I think I don't know if you believe animals are conscious or not but okay so now we have a good amount of animals that eat other animals what do you say about these animals well they don't have the moral agency that we do we know these other animals they do so because they have to and also they can't rationalize their decisions you know so I don't think we should look to them as Role Models you know for example other animals rape one another oh are we then Justified to rape because other animals also do that no I don't think so but you mentioned that these animals don't have the same oral like ability as us and stuff which is kind of you know uh leading to my argument which was maybe animals have less understanding less Consciousness less moral ability than us so I mean that kind of supports the argument almost not necessarily because the argument is that we can't hold lions and tigers to the same moral standard as us because we have increased intelligence which creates increased moral agency which also creates increased um moral um accountability um but even though other animals may not be as cognitively as advanced as we are in those in in that sense what's important is what they can experience and what and what we force them to experience through our choices and so whilst I'm not going to say that other animals are as cognitively advanced as we are the argument I'm making is they're more cognitively advanced than plants and their capacity to suffer is higher than that of plants and as a consequence consuming plants reduces suffering overall and reduces death overall compared to the consumption of animals and that's where this argument for me is you know that's where I'm coming from I guess yeah I understand I think we should uh we'll leave it there for today but what do you think then what does contribute to less suffering and death overall I mean um in the definition of that like the question it would be to be if plants definitely suffer less than animals than it would be to be vegan but we don't necessarily a hundred percent know that well I also don't necessarily 100 know that a baby suffers more than you know an animal or a plant beating that same logic but what we have is I suppose uh logical intuition and also as I've said many times before the things that we know that have created this sensation within you and I you know I know that you feel pain or at least surmised you probably do because I know that I feel pain and I know the reasons why I feel pain and I can look at another animal and see that they have the same reasons evolutionarily speaking as I do they have the same biological systems as I do and also they react in a similar way that I do when I feel pain and so they might not go ow that hurts I'm in pain but they may bark they may cower they may make noises and also their body reacts in a similar way they try to avoid that they prefer situations where pain is reduced they prefer situations where they don't have to live in fear that's why they prioritize the same things that we do which is comfort and you know safety and note that to me is a very instinctive drive or an intuitive uh at least um Arguments for believing that they suffer and as a result of that deserve consideration that means that we should consume plants over them yeah I mean I understand where you're coming from although we all were you know as humans we're once babies we know that um we can just relate more to babies because you know they're human beings they're young infant human beings we were ones just like that and we humans react from emotions so we just you know relate so much more to babies we do relate to them but but using the logic that you're using you can't prove to me that the baby in a hospital right now feels more or less than a calf or a cow or indeed a plant using a lot of the Oilers you can't prove that to me no no we can but I'm I'm not do that we let the baby you know live with his parents and grow up with his parents because I am not a baby eater I don't eat baby no why do we give that baby consideration use if we use the logic that you're using why don't we treat the baby like we do any other animal or indeed plants well I mean uh assuming that we're saying then there could be certain reasons but I mean there's definitely plenty of psychopaths out there that if there were no law if it was um The Purge they would probably do some really up things I don't even think that is a human oh why would that be bad because I just as me Victor I believe that you know babies shouldn't they shouldn't be abusation and suffer why how do you know they stop well we don't but we know that one day it has a chance to be a human being like myself and I think that babies that shouldn't be traumatized if there's a chance that the baby has memory from those early moments in its life but how do you know that they suffer oh we don't but regardless a baby still has human rights and that that I I'm not going to break the law and I wouldn't even want to but if there's a psychopath out there that wants to they wouldn't do it for certain reasons legally and then if you're staying human being you want to want to do it because you can relate and you feel emotions towards this other human being I agree that obviously humans have rights and we recognize that but the point I'm trying to make is that if because what we're doing right now with the animal stuff is we're disregarding their biology We're disregarding The evolutionary reasons for them to feel pain and we're disallow or disregarding the things that they do that will be indicative of them experiencing pain there's things I've spoke about a few times now the argument that you're making is disregarding all of those things and I'm saying if we take the example of a human baby or any human if we also disregard all three of those things we also have nothing to prove that they feel pain or suffer because the reason that we recognize the other other animals including humans feel pain and suffer is because of these three things these three things so disregarding them means that we that we're also disregarding our acknowledgment that you humans can suffer as well that's the plan I'm trying to make all right and I mean when I'm when I'm hunting if you if you shoot an animal I mean you try to Target it's vital so that it you know it gets killed immediately so that it doesn't suffer assuming that that animal could suffer we try to end the life as soon as possible so that it doesn't suffer so why do that if you're in doubt because there's a chance exactly there's a chance and so if there's a chance that they can suffer let's do what we can to minimize the suffering and death that we cause I think that's a fair argument and I'll consider it and uh let's end it there okay all right thanks Victor thank you [Music] thank you [Music]

Channel: Earthling Ed

Views: 64,663

Keywords: earthlinged, earthling ed, vegan, veganism, why, be, go, earthlings full movie, activism, ted talk on veganism

Id: c3VQRI_bemU

Length: 19min 55sec (1195 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 06 2023