- [Cameron Cole] Good morning,
my name is Cameron Cole. And thank you for coming
to this panel. The title of this panel is
"Youth Are Not the Future, The Urgent Task
of Evangelism Today." I'm going to pray for us,
then we'll introduce the panel. Lord God, thank you for your
goodness and your loving kindness. We thank You, Lord, that you've
made us alive together with Christ and that You've
raised us to be seated with him in the heavenly realms where we
pray that You would bless this time that we would see the
goodness and the grace of Jesus. And we pray, Lord, that we would
be at edified and sanctified for the sake of glory of the
name of Christ Jesus. In Jesus' name, we pray.
Amen. All right, well, today,
we're going to be talking about discipleship and
evangelism to young people. And so, when we talk about young
people, we're primarily talking about late elementary age,
all the way into college age. And so, we have a host of people
from a variety of contexts. And so, we're all going to speak
about the task of discipling kids, whether
that's our own children, or if you're in Children, Youth,
and Family Ministry discipling and evangelizing
kids in that realm. And so, again, my name is
Cameron Cole. For 14 years, I've been the
Director of Children, Youth, and Family at the Cathedral
Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. I'm also the Chairman of Rooted,
which is a ministry that promotes gospel-centered
youth ministry. We have partnered with The
Gospel Coalition for the last seven years to produce content
about parent discipleship and youth ministry on
The Gospel Coalition blog. And so, Jackie, would you like
to introduce yourself? - [Jackie Hill Perry] Hey,
I'm Jackie. And I write, speak, talk a lot
on social media. For that reason, I have a lot of
millennial friends and people to talk to. I also served as a Female
Mentorship Coordinator at a nonprofit in Chicago for some
time that sought to mentor at-risk teens. - [Glen Scrivener]
I'm Glen Scrivener. I am an evangelist working in
the U.K. I'm from Australia originally. And I spend a lot of my time
going around university campuses in the U.K.
and also producing media that is particularly consumed
by older teens. - [Stephen Um] My name is
Stephen Um. I'm the Senior Pastor of
Citylife Presbyterian Church in Center of City, Boston. And I guess the reason why I'm
on this panel is I get to speak to a lot of university students. - [Cameron Cole] Great. So it's not an obscure fact that
the church has had a tough time with the discipleship of young
people over the past generation. There are a variety of studies,
but somewhere in the range of 70% of kids who grow
up in the church, do not return to church after high school. And so, the first question we
have is where have we seen problems with and failures in
the way that parents and churches have presented the
gospel to young people? Stephen, do you want to
start us off with that? - [Stephen Um] I think we need
to be more concerned about addressing the issues of
the heart than we are about behavior modification. Not that behavior modification
is unimportant, but we need to model to our children in the
church and also in the home that the way we think about every
dimension of life in ministry is centered around the gospel. So, that is the way we look at
life and the way we look at our ministry and the way we look at
our families is rooted in what the gospel is. So, the way that we parent and
the way that we communicate, we have to show our children
that the gospel is distinctly different than just behavior
modification or some religious expression,
but it is a real-life relationship with Jesus Christ. And I think because that hasn't
been modeled as well in our churches and in our homes,
a lot of our children get this illusion whether by hypocrisy or
inconsistency and they don't see how their parents are really
relying upon the sufficiency of Scripture for all things. And so, they see it more as we
go to church on Sundays but they necessarily do not see how it
shapes the way they do everything in life. - [Glen Scrivener] I think off
the back of that, a gospel-centered youth ministry
is so vital. I remember in my teenage years,
I grew up in a church-going family,
and I remember giving my life to Jesus about 1,000 times in my
teenage years. I don't think that's an
exaggeration. I think from about age 14,
it was sort of the first time, at a big sort of conference like
this, and it was a very melodramatic giving of my life
up to Jesus, and that didn't seem to work because I went home
to the mirror and I didn't see a shining light behind my eyes or
a halo above my head or a funny feeling in my stomach. And so I prayed again
and again and again. And I think the passage of my
teenage years that haunted me was the God in the Gethsemane. Because I had the bracelet that
said, "What would Jesus do?" And apparently, Jesus would go
into a wooded place and bury his face in the mud and give his
life to God in an incredible act of self-surrender and service. And I thought, "Well,
that's what I need to do." And I would volunteer to walk
the dog into a forest and bury my face into the mud and give my
life to God, and give my life to God. And I'd run home and I'd try to
see if there was a difference, and there was no difference. So I prayed again and again,
and my youth leaders were continually telling me to give
my life to God, to give my life to God. And I think by about the 950th
time, you know, how do you think I was feeling about God,
you know, just taking my life from me? And it was really only aged
about 20, I got down with a friend reading through Luke's
Gospel, and we got to the God in the Gethsemane, and I said,
"I can't handle reading this passage because
I can't do it like Jesus." And my friend said, "You know,
Glen, do you think you're Jesus?" And I said, "Well, no, not 100%,
but you know, getting there." And he said, "Glen, in that
passage, you are not Jesus, you are Peter." And what's Peter doing
in the passage? You know, failing, rubbish,
stupid, foolish Peter, and Jesus prays for him. And I thought, ah, and here is
what was lacking for, you know, so many years of youth ministry,
when I was just trying to foster and forge a vertical
relationship with God and give it up to God and give it up to
God and give it up to God. And suddenly he told me,
Christ did that for me. And the release and the service. And I just wonder, if in youth
work, one of the reasons why we don't reach out with the gospel
is because we're constantly trying to forge and foster that
vertical relationship with God that's already
a free gift in Jesus. And if only we would know that
and receive that, maybe we would flow out to the nations. - [Cameron Cole] My story is
pretty similar to yours, Glen, in a way that the gospel got you
into heaven, and then after that, Christianity was
just another form of performance. It was about
trying really, really hard for God. That's what
it meant to be a Christian. And so, quite honestly,
you know, I grew up in a suburban, I minister
today, and I grew up in a suburban setting where people do
things like bribe college admissions officers to let their
children into college. That's the holy grail. And I really was just a
performance addict, and my religious experience in the
church really just kind of reinforced that. And I really came to a point
when I was 22 years old, I basically had
a nervous breakdown. And the thing that healed me and
set me free, and this was as a person who grew up going to
church every single Sunday of my life, even in college,
even in graduate school, was my pastor saying to me the
gospel is rest, the gospel means that Jesus carries the burden of
your life, and the gospel means that you'll never have to
impress anyone again. And so to hear that the gospel
actually had relevance to me as a Christian was when I really
came alive in Christ. And so, I think that,
to your point, Stephen, there can be this...we can kind
of, in some ways, just contradict and undermine that
original presentation of the gospel if we don't let that
message of grace saturate the whole life, the whole Christian
life and the whole process of discipleship.
How about you, Jackie? - [Jackie Hill Perry] Yeah,
I think it seems to me that one of the faults of how the gospel
has been presented is that I think it's been assumed that the
gospel is only supposed to affect us and not affect our
neighbors, our neighborhoods, our homes. And so I think it's disorienting
even in our culture now where it seems as if the gospel has only
changed how you love the other people in your church but not
the others that are outside the church, not the
immigrant, not the oppressed, not the prisoner. And so, I think that makes the
gospel very unattractive. When it seems that how did God
make you holy but you don't love well? So, I see that the most is that
they don't want our God because our God doesn't seem to reach
outside of the four walls of the church.
- [Cameron Cole] Great. - [Stephen Um] And if I could
just add to that, Cameron. I think the doctrine of the
union with Christ is so important in helping us to
understand the relationship between justification and
progressive sanctification. It is the work of Christ that
provides rescuing grace to overcome the penalty of sin,
but it is the life of Christ that provides the rescuing grace
to overcome the power of sin. And I think that oftentimes we
simply think about the justifying work of Jesus and
it's something that has happened but there isn't this ongoing
work of the spirit as we think about what it means to be in
union with Christ to overcome all of the struggles that we
have on an ongoing basis and overcoming the power of sin. He who is in us is greater than
he who is in the world. - [Cameron Cole] That's a great
point that takes us to the next question. In your particular context,
what benefits or aspects of the gospel do you find really
resonate with the kids that you minister to? - [Jackie Hill Perry] These kids
are depressed. They have a lot of anxiety. I think I saw an article today
that after I think 1997, the anxiety and depression
rates went up. I don't know if that's because
of YouTube or what. But I think, I had a
conversation with a student, I was at a college...no,
high school in Montreal, North Carolina two weeks ago. And she said, "What is it about
Jesus that I'd need to believe the most when life is hard?" And I said, one, that's a great
question to ask. I was like, I think we can be
encouraged by the fact that we have a God who stepped
into suffering. You know, that He was not in
heaven seeing the suffering of the people because
of sin and death. And now that's affected us and
told us to, you know, just get through it,
just charge through life, you know, cast your anxieties
on me, don't trip. But He condescended and He
became a man of sorrows. And so, we can look at him and
know that He gets it. We can look at Him and know that
He was God yet sorrowful often. But we can look at Him and know
that even in His sorrow, He had joy. And so, I think that that's one
thing that I think our students need to see is that their God,
our Jesus, is one that gets their pain. - [Glen Scrivener] I think
Christ-centered theology, a knowledge of God that is
focused on Christ is just so vital. I do a lot of evangelism with
adults as well as youth, and my rule of thumb is always
if someone is over 55 and they tell me that they are Christian,
I don't believe them, at least, not right away. Because there's such a thing as
nominal Christianity. You know, I'm not rude about it,
I don't poke them in the chest and say, "You know, sing a few
hymns or something." But it has been easier for an
older generation to look at the labels that are out there and
pick the Christian label and put it on and go out into the world. And we know there's such a thing
as nominal Christianity. But I speak to a lot of under
25s, and when they tell me that they're an atheist,
I don't believe them. And for the very same reason. Because it's very, very easy
today to go to a shelf full of labels and to find the
atheist label and to put it on and go out there into the
world, and you haven't done more than five minutes of
philosophical thinking about, you know, materialism,
but you're an atheist. You know, are you really? Well, it's just an identity that
helps you to navigate the world a little less frictionless,
a little more frictionlessly. So, there is such a thing as
nominal atheism. And so my question to over 55s
is you know, "Which God do you believe in?" My question to under 25s is,
"Which God don't you believe in?" And usually, they end up
describing some distant individual high on power,
low on personality, kind of, a Thor figure with a thunderbolt
ready to hurl. And I just say, "What?
Sounds like Thor. I don't believe in Thor.
Can I tell you about Jesus?" And I'm always using the phrase
the Jesus God. I picked it up from an Iranian
woman who'd sort of escaped from Iran when
she became a Christian. She'd become a Christian because
her uncle had given her a copy of the gospel. She read through the gospel and
she got halfway through Luke's gospel. And she said, I realized that
God cannot be the god of the ayatollahs,
he must be the Jesus God. I love that phrase. I've been using that phrase ever
since that moment. So, I do think the big doctrine
that I'm just always preaching when I'm speaking to youth,
in particular, is let's be talking about the Jesus God. When I say God, I'm picturing,
most particularly, I'm picturing a man on the cross with his arms
wide open to the world bleeding for his enemies. I don't know what you're
thinking of when you think of God, but I think if we are to
really shape our thoughts in Christ and in Christ
crucified, then that's the sort of thing that we should say,
and it's the sort of thing that's really compelling,
especially for the youth. - [Stephen Um] When we think
about the baseline cultural narrative among young people,
not only millennials but this new generation called iGens. What we realize is that they
have a great concern for justice, speaking into
injustices and having a concern for those who are marginalized
and vulnerable. And the Bible has a lot to say
about that. So, scholars have said that it
is important for us to find a point of agreement or what we
would call an element of contact with our baseline
cultural narrative. That's exactly what Paul did
when he spoke to a non-Jewish or non-Christian audience,
whether in Lystra in Acts 14 or Acts 17 in Athens. That's exactly what he did. He found a point of reference,
reference of identification. And so I would say the baseline
cultural narrative, for many of them, would be justice. And I think the aspect of the
gospel that is able to make contact with that would be the
incarnation, right? When we think about the three
non-negotiable, the essential elements of the gospel,
it would be incarnation, atonement, and resurrection. And so, I really press into
that, the incarnational ministry of Jesus and how he was
concerned about reaching the quartet of the marginalized and
the vulnerable and how he brought healing and restoration
for those people who were in need. - [Cameron Cole] Yeah, I found,
in my context again, over kids... I've had probably over 1,000
kids go to my youth ministry and I still have not had a child
not go to college right out of high school, still
batting 100% on that. So that gives you a sense of
what my children are like. And so, one thing that I
emphasize quite a bit with them is the active obedience
of Jesus. It's not just that Jesus died on
the cross for your sins, it's that Jesus lived a perfect
life for you. Like, that was a necessary part
of your salvation. And so, something I'll say to
kids on a Sunday night before we dismiss is, "Remember that Jesus
has already lived this week for you perfectly. He's already lived this week on
your behalf perfectly." And you know, we certainly are
not, you know, saying to kids, "You don't have to obey the
Lord, you know, you don't have to live a life of
sacrifice for him." But we find that for our kids to
really come to love and appreciate Jesus, to hear that
he has already lived a life that they feel like they're expected
to live every day and that's reinforced via media and social
media and their parents, their schools. It's a very, very freeing and
compelling thing for them to hear that not only did Jesus
die for their faults, but that Jesus also lived this
perfect life when so many of them are striving to measure
up to perfection in every way. So you know, as we talk about
trying to lead kids to Christ, you know, we often see that
there are idols that they cling to, that they don't want
to let go of in order to surrender their self to the
lordship of Jesus. And so, what are some of the
most common idols that you're seeing in your context that kids
are really clinging to that are a challenge to them to let go of
to come and follow Jesus as their lord? - [Glen Scrivener] I think it's
difficult for everyone in every age, but the dangers of
narcissism are just huge, especially in a social media
age and especially for younger people. And of course, the thing about
the Narcissus myth is that Narcissus wasn't just in love
with himself, he was in love with the image of himself. So think that's something very
interesting in an Instagram age that we fall in love not even
with ourselves, but we fall in love with the curated image
of ourselves that we project out into the world. And yet it's so empty,
it's so hollow. So you've got this really
interesting disjunction between an investment into an
image and at the same time the prizing of authenticity. You know, everyone wants
to follow on YouTube the most authentic vlogger who says,
"Hey, guys." And you know, if you can fake
authenticity, you've got it made, I tell you.
But that's this age. This age is so hungry for
authenticity and maybe it's because we're all front,
we are all show, we're all taking the selfie 17 times and
putting the filter on it and getting it out there. So I think, falling in love with
our own image would be at the top of the list for me. - [Jackie Hill Perry] Right,
it's all the same. What have you dealt with?
I don't know. I think one thing that I see,
I guess two things, one would be just kind of this
addiction to doubt. Like, the wrestling for the sake
of wrestling, but never really wanting to come to a conclusion
on something that you have to now submit to. And so, it's like, ah,
having all these questions of the text which you should
have, having all these questions of Jesus which you should have,
but when you get, you know, some type of resolve or some
type of answer, now, you have a question of the
answer where it's like you don't even want the answer,
you just are addicted to questioning it. And so, I think I
see that a lot. I think that's an idol where
it's, like, you really don't really want to know.
I don't know what that is. - [Cameron Cole] Yeah,
and on that note, I think I find myself for a lot of kids where
they're kind of caught in the same position. It's really a matter of not
wanting to give up autonomy. You know, I feel that the world
celebrates human autonomy and self-rule as a virtue. You know, to do what you want to
do is really the most virtuous thing. I have found it just so puzzling
that when Bruce Jenner transitioned that he was given
the Arthur Ashe Award for courage by ESPN when he had
left his wife, he left his wife and left his family and done
something that, you know... If let's say that he had run off
with another woman that would be criticized and condemned. But because there was some
sense that he was being true to himself and that he was
really embracing human autonomy, for whatever reason it was
celebrated as a virtue. And so, I think for a lot of our
kids, something I'll say in bolder moments is, you know,
what are you going to have to give up if this
Jesus stuff is true. And you know, I think really
what you're going to have to give up is doing
whatever you want. You know, if Jesus really rose
from the dead and the Christian story is true and the Bible is
God's word, that means you can't go around partying and smoking
weed and sleeping around. Like, that's just
not part of it. You have to submit yourself to
the lordship of Jesus. And so, I think that you know,
what really is the core of sin wanting to be our own lord,
I think that autonomy because it's so celebrated and embraced
by the culture, maybe the biggest idol that I encounter in
trying to lead kids to Christ. - [Stephen Um] For sure. Yeah, I mean, what I have to
share is essentially everything that you've shared already. And I think a major idol for
this younger generation would be comfort because they are so
individualistic, right? Every generation has been
individualistic but this generation...
Let me commend to books to you. For those of you who are
parents, and if you have children who are born between
1995 and 2007, they're not millennials, they're iGens. And they're the ones who are
entering into the university. The reason why there have been
all sorts of disinvitations and so on and so forth is because
this younger generation is so consumed with comforts. So those two books, one would be
Jonathan Haidt's <i>Coddling</i> <i>of the American Mind</i> and the
other one would be Jean Twenge <i>iGens</i>. And what they highlight is that
there is an oversafetyism that these young people want. This generation wants
oversafetyism. So, they have medicalized
everything, they refer to harm. Even if it's not real harm,
they will respond to perceived harm and also they'll say,
"I don't feel safe in this setting." And so, they don't want to be
challenged with anything that will make them feel
uncomfortable. So they believe that somebody
who disagrees with them is a potential threat to them. We used to call that
intellectual inquiry and having the willingness to be able to
respect all sorts of diverse views. And so, this generation really
wants to hold on to comfort. I heard Keller say something
like this. He said, "There's a liberal
individualism and a conservative individualism."
And that is for... A liberal individualism is that
they have essentially co-oped to some Christian ideas such as
just justice and caring for the poor, but they have
taken it and extrapolated to its extreme end. And therefore they'll say, "Hey,
you know, it's good to take care of those people who are
vulnerable but don't tell me what to do with my body." And that's essentially where
we've come to, where this generation is saying, "Hey,
it's great for me to be a part of that, but if you're going to
disagree with me, especially as it relates to my body or as
it relates to my money, for those who are conservative
individualists, I don't want to be challenged that way.
I want to remain in my comfort. I want to remain in this world
view and I want everyone else to assimilate to what I
believe." So that could be one.
- [Cameron Cole] That's great. I'm getting a lot out of this
panel, I don't know if you guys are. So, one thing that's becoming an
increasing challenge to pretty much everyone in the ministry is
sharing the gospel in a secular age. 50 years ago, 6% of college
students, when they enrolled identified as having no
religious affiliation. In 2015, 30% of students
identified as having no religious affiliation. So, what advice would you give
to people in evangelism in a secular and post-Christian age? - [Glen Scrivener] It's
interesting when you press into those figures about the
nones, not the N-U-N-S but the N-O-N-E-Ses that... Like, there was a Pew Research
poll done in 2017 here in the States, and people asked,
you know, do you believe in God, and I think 80% said did,
but of the 20% that said they did not, they then pressed in
and said, you know, do you believe in some kind
of higher power. And at least half of those said,
"Oh, yeah, absolutely, but not God." And then when they pressed into
those who said they did not pray, a majority of people
who said they did not pray, when they were asked,
do you ever talk to God, they said, "Oh, yeah,
I talk to God. I just don't pray."
I think, oh, that's interesting. Whatever you thought prayer was,
maybe stop doing that and just talk to God. That would be quite a good
thing, right? So, people don't know
what they think. And when they present as no
religion, I'm an atheist. When people present as an
atheist, quite often, I'll just ask, "Oh, when's the
last time you prayed?" And they said, "Oh, actually I'm
praying for my mom. She's going to the hospital." And you know,
"Ah, got you," right? But there's a nominal atheism,
and I do think we are a little bit too cowed by statistics
and figures. One of the ways that outreach
happens in the U.K. on campuses is the students,
the Christian students, want to put on talks and then
they invite evangelists like me to come and speak. And they'll basically troll the
student population with the most inflammatory talk topics
imaginable. Like, why does
God hate these people? Glen Scrivener will explain. And I arrive and there are
massive posters. And they would have come for the
free pizza and yet... Just give them the free pizza,
I just want to talk about Jesus. But there was one time,
it was why does God hate women so very much or
something like that. And the wise thing they did was
they got a woman to come and speak to that topic. And she did a brilliant job but
I was in the audience watching. And there was a Q and A session
afterwards. And one guy from the atheists
and secular humanist association picked up the microphone
afterwards and he just dominated the Q and A and just asked all
the most aggressive, angry questions about homophobia
and sexuality and gender and what about hell, what about holy
war in the Old Testament. And she did a brilliant job
answering the questions, but everyone's shoulders were up
around their ears and some poor student had to get up afterwards
and sort of say, "Well, time for lectures. Everyone,
hope you come back tomorrow." And everyone's shoulders
were still up here. And I just turned to the guy
who's next to me and I said, "What did you make of that?" And he said, "Oh, I wasn't
listening to that girl with the microphone. But my granddad died last week,
and I've just been wondering what life's about.
Do you have any thoughts?" And I did, I had
a number of thoughts. And so, we had a conversation
for an hour. I looked around and all these
students were getting into conversations with all
these "apparently" angry atheists. And I mean, the guy I spoke to
came back that night and became a Christian that night and,
you know, he's still walking on with the Lord. And my motto ever since then is
that the guy with the microphone does not speak for the room. And so now, I agree too,
because you know, the mainstream media does not speak for the
nation and the statistics are not the person who's
in front of you. So, however, cowed we might be
the rise of the nones or whatever, just talk
to your neighbor. They've just lost their granddad
and they're wondering what life is about, you know. Don't be too worried about the
cultural trends. Jesus said,
"Love your neighbor." So turn to your neighbor,
and you'll find that they have spiritual needs. - [Stephen Um] Yes, Charles
Taylor in his book <i>Dilemmas</i> <i>in Connections,</i> he's a
world-renowned Canadian philosopher and he's written a
lot on secularism. And he says that when you think
about secularism, it's simply saying that any comprehensive
view of religion has no space in public discourse. That doesn't mean that our
culture has not co-opted or borrowed or
adopted Christian ideas. And so, late modernity has
adopted all sorts of Christian ideas. So, we have to be keen on
observing what those ideas are to be able to find
a point of reference. And so, it's not very difficult
to speak with a professing atheist or people who are
a-religious, because the thoughts that they have,
even though they don't realize it, many of those thoughts are
connected to a Christian idea that has been adopted
and co-opted. And so this is why I think that
progressive Christianity is very, very dangerous. They don't know the distinction
between Biblical Orthodox Christianity and a co-opted
version that seems to assimilate and accommodate to what the
baseline cultural narrative is. So I think that the situation
that we're in is not hopeless by any means. People say, "Oh, no, you know,
we should perhaps consider the Benedict option and isolate
ourselves and so on and so forth." I really think that God uses
opportunities and moments like this for us to be able to
speak the gospel into those ideas which have already been
borrowed from Christian ideas in the past. So, I think that those are
things that we can consider. - [Jackie Hill Perry]
Your question was about encouragement? - [Cameron Cole] This was a way
of [inaudible]. - [Jackie Hill Perry] I'm
sleepy, I haven't... That's in my thought, I'm sorry. - [Cameron Cole] You're cool,
you can get away with that. - [Jackie Hill Perry] I
appreciate that. You're so kind. - [Cameron Cole] So, you know,
we're talking about, you know, navigating the waters of sharing
the gospel in a secular age. - [Jackie Hill Perry] Beautiful. So, I think primarily, for me,
it is encouraging. I think somebody could be
discouraged by the statistics, but if anything, it means that
people are being more honest. And so, I think because people
are very clear on what they believe and what they don't
believe, we have more to work with. So for me, it's easier for me to
do ministry in places like Boston or Portland or
New York, these places that people would call secular, than
it is for me to do ministry in Texas and Memphis and
Tennessee, because I have to now get through all of this like
religious jargon that they've never even submitted to in their
entire life. And so for me, I'm encouraged
they're like, "Oh, you will see it and you know it, good." We can do something with that. But also, I think one
encouragement would also be is that this is secularism and all
of that is not primarily an intellectual or
academic issue. Should we educate ourselves? Should we know how
to defend the faith? Should we know how
to contend for the faith? Sure. But the things that people are
grabbing a hold of and believing are coming out of a passion. And so for me, it's sitting with
somebody and saying, "Why do you want this
to not be true? What is it about god that you
don't want Him to be God? What is it about salvation that
you don't want it to be only one way? What is it about sexual ethics
that you think is...?" So, getting to the root of the
unbelief, I think, gets beyond the academic level and
more a passion, heart level that I think allows us to speak
into some deep-seated things that Christians probably haven't
talked to them about. - [Cameron Cole] Great. And I think, you know,
secularism just is not really working very well for people.
- [Jackie Hill Perry] No. - [Cameron Cole] People are
anxious, people are depressed, people have no sense of meaning
or purpose in their life. And so, you know, we can
absolutely dominate those topics, right? We, I mean, in terms of
redemption and joy and companionship of the Holy Spirit
in union with Christ, like, we have the market, and Jesus
has completely dominated the market on those things. And so, I think one thing we can
get very caught up in sharing the gospel is purely operate at
the intellectual level, like get into intellectual
matches and, of course, intellectual side is important. And at the same side,
at the same time, I feel like apologetics that really
resonate with people at the heart level. And that really reveal to
people how hopeful and how life-giving and joyful it is to
follow Jesus. I think if we operate at the
heart level in our apologetics and evangelism, I think that we
really offer people that they are not going to find in this
humanist worldview that most are living under. - [Stephen Um] And to that end,
Cameron, every individual, whatever their ideological
worldview might be, they struggle with problem emotions,
right, as you've shared already. Everyone struggles with fear,
insecurity, anxiety, depression, despair, boredom, anger. We all wrestle with this. And if you get to the
underneath, the root issue of all of these problem
emotions, you're going to find deep-seated idols like approval
and power and influence and control and comfort. And again, there's no other
system or reality that speaks so well into those issues and
providing a remedy and resolution for problem emotions
and deep-seated idols than the gospel. So, you're right, it's not just
an intellectual issue. Sometimes, that is just a smoke
screen because people don't know how to deal with some
deeper emotional stuff. - [Cameron Cole] Amen. Well, in a similar vein,
I think one of the biggest conversation pieces that comes
up when talking to people, this day and age about the
gospel or about Christianity is issues of gender
and sexuality. And so, do you have any advice
to offer people on how we navigate those ways in a manner
that's Biblically faithful and honest and that's also
compassionate and redemptive? I mean, has anyone like,
maybe written a book on the topic, perhaps? - [Jackie Hill Perry] I was
trying to be humble. - [Cameron Cole] Anybody win
the TGC, book award on this topic? - [Jackie Hill Perry] I was
trying to be humble. I think it's imperative that the
conversation does not center around sexuality but it centers
around God who created sex, God who created people. Growing up in church being
someone who was same-sex attracted,
I saw only... It seemed that the only reason
that I was to turn from it would be because I should do right,
I shouldn't go to hell, I shouldn't do wrong. But I always, in coming to
Christ, I wondered if anybody would have just told me about
the beauty of God if I would have repented much quicker. They never casted a vision for
this is the reason for your turning, this is the
person that you are turning to, and this is the person who will
give you hope, and this is the person that will give you power
to flee your temptation even when you walk with them. And so, I think that's really
what our culture needs is to see and understand God. And I think in understanding
God, then everything else makes sense. So, if it's, why should I not
give in to my same-sex desires? Why should I obey Jesus?
Because he's good. And he created your
body for himself. And the body was not meant for
sexual immorality but for somebody. Who is that somebody?
For the Lord. And so, he's not telling you to
turn from something that you suppose is good to turn to
something that is bad. If God created sex, then surely,
He has to be better than it. And so, I think casting vision,
I sound like John Piper but casting feeling... But really, like, showing that
God is so good and so big that even if it hurts, even if there
is some grief from you detaching from the flesh and living the
way that you used to live, even in all of that,
God is being really good to you to tell you to stop. And so I think that's what we
need is just sexuality underneath the goodness and
glory of God. - [Cameron Cole] Awesome,
that's really good. - [Jackie Hill Perry] Thank you. - [Cameron Cole] You should
think about writing on that. - [Jackie Hill Perry] I should. - [Cameron Cole] I would say,
I think one thing that's important, and when I... This is a major shift in the way
that I have to do sex education, like, twice a year for 14 years,
that's 28 times, I can no longer blush. But anyhow, I no longer talk
about sex as a category in and of itself. I talk about sex as a
subcategory or one component and form of intimacy
that God gives us. Because you have to remember
that, you know, what people are really longing for as sex is
connection and intimacy. And the world upholds
sex as an idol. And really honestly, the world,
kind of, conceived of sex in the way if you will not be
fulfilled, you will not flourish, and you will not
feel any sense of connection and fellowship unless you are
sexually active. And so, you know, for when we
talk about, I just try to communicate to people that
sex is just one form of intimacy that God has given us to be
enjoyed in marriage. And there are all kinds of other
forms of intimacy, with the greatest of those being found in
intimate fellowship with Jesus. And so, that's part of how I try
to kind of frame the conversation. Get away from letting sex be a
category in of itself, but talk about sexuality in a
broader category of intimacy and fellowship. - [Jackie Hill Perry] That's good. - [Glen Scrivener] Lots of
things to say on the topic, but one thing to encourage
evangelists and youth workers with is that it might not be as
big an issue with the person you're talking to as you think
it might be. So, in the U.K., they did a
massive survey, it was sponsored by the Church of England and The
Evangelical Alliance and Hope, which is a very large kind of
fellowship of churches, asked a lot of non-Christians,
"Would you associate any of these adjectives
with Christianity?" And one of the adjectives
was homophobia. And 7% said they would. 7% would associate Christianity
and homophobia in a very unchurched,
very secular nation. And that always shocks
Christians. Christians always say,
"They haven't asked my friends. If they asked my friends,
it would be 97%." And you're like, "Well,
I think they did the survey, I think they went through
due diligence. Let's maybe listen to that and
let's not let that issue disqualify you from turning to
your neighbor, from just turning to the youth are who in your
care and actually talking to them about Jesus." Because I think, there can be
this thought in the back of our heads.
Everybody thinks we're bigots. We can't open our
mouths about Jesus. And we actually, we censor
ourselves when, if statistics are to be believed, there's 93%
of people who aren't even thinking about that. So you know, that's just an
encouragement to keep sharing and not let the thought that you
might be considered a bigot stop you. - [Jackie Hill Perry] That's
good. - [Cameron Cole] I'm going to,
to turn the page here, we've talked so much about
evangelism to kids in the world, and we haven't talked a whole
lot about evangelism within the home. And so, you know, as kind of,
let's spend the remaining five minutes of our time there. What advice would you give
parents about sharing the gospel with and discipling
their own kids? - [Jackie Hill Perry] I don't
think I'm qualified for that. - [Glen Scrivener] Me neither. We're all looking to you,
Stephen. - [Stephen Um] No, oh, boy. Believe it or not, I have three
daughters, two of them are millennials and one is an iGen. And so, I say that from
preschool to about fifth grade, they respect you and they honor
you as they should, and they'll listen to you. So you have an opportunity to be
able to always have a point of reference there. They're going to church,
they're going to Sunday school, they have an awareness of who
God is and Jesus. And so, you simply talk to them
about these sorts of things. But as they get into middle
school, junior high, and high school, as they start
trying to think a little more independently and as they're
being influenced by what the culture is saying, you can't
just simply speak the truth, you need to continue doing that,
but you also need to be able to be aware
of their social context. And if that's not part of the
discipleship, if that's not part of what you do as a parent,
you say, "Oh, that's the responsibility of the church." What's going to happen is
they're going to go to college and then you're going to be
utterly surprised that they have abandoned their faith or they
have assimilated into mainstream culture and you're going to
wonder why that they're not continuing to grow
in their faith. So I think it's the
responsibility of the parent to be well equipped,
to be able to understand the social context. Again, this iGen generation,
remember, iPhone 2007, Facebook 2006, Twitter 2006,
Instagram 2010, Snapchat 2011, this is the first generation
that has grown up with social media. So they don't know
of any other reality. So, if you're not aware that
iGens, the ones who are in high school, who are freshmen
or sophomores in college, don't want to use Facebook,
if you don't know why they don't want to do that, why millennials
do that, and why they just want Snapchat, then you need to
read some books and you need to prepare and equip yourself. Jean Twenge's book is really
helpful in this regard, but I think that has to be part
of the discipleship. - [Jackie Hill Perry] So,
I have a little advice. - [Cameron Cole] Yeah. - [Jackie Hill Perry]
Real smidge. I have a 4-year-old and a
10-month-old. So, 10-month-old doesn't know
anything, so I can't speak to that. But the 4-year-old, our primary
active fellowship is over Daniel Tiger. So I'll say what I am trying to
do and what I hope to do. What I'm trying to do,
me and my husband, have been kind of talking to her about
things over dinner, about sin, about God. One, I think some people,
it seems as if like-- So I'm trying-- I wasn't raised
in a Christian home. And so, a lot of the ways I'm
trying to model, I guess parenting, discipleship,
is to the ways that I was discipled. But also learning from all of my
friends that grew up in Christian homes and trying
not to do what they told me their parents did. So, one thing is it seems I
guess didn't start early enough in facilitating conversation
that didn't always feel preachy. And so, like, having
conversation and her having the freedom to push back and the
freedom to wrestle, because when she's 15, 16, 17, 18,
I don't want her to have to depend on me to come to
conclusions about what the Scriptures are saying. That doesn't mean that she
shouldn't come to me and all of that, but I still... Christianity is a hard thing. There are some stuff that
you...when you're in Leviticus and you don't know what the heck
this is, you got to somehow figure it out yourself. But also, I think just talking
to her on a level that she could understand but also not doubting
that she can't understand. So what I mean by that
is she's four. And she told me, we were talking
about God. She said, "God isn't real." I said, "Why isn't He real?" And she was like,
"Because I can't see Him." So, that makes sense. I said, "But can you see
grandma?" She said, "No." I said, "Why not?" "Because she's not here." But is she real?
"Well..." But I'm using terms and language
that she gets, but I'm not treating my child like she's
stupid and only talking to her "Do you know who God is?" I'm not doing that to my baby
because I understand that God has given her brains,
she is an image bearer, and He has made her a
communicator and so Myla can get it. And so, that's why I'm trying
to do. I don't know. - [Cameron Cole] I think two
things I would say on the... to parents on this. Anyways, I as a paid Christian
who, you now as children, youth, and family, I have a lot of
times feel this pressure like I've got to save my kids. You know, like, it's incumbent
upon my performance to model a godly life and to share the
gospel with as much clarity as possible such that I will
save my kids. And I have to remember over and
over again that like God loves my child more than I do,
and God is infinitely more effective to rescue my child
from sin than I am. And so, to actually trust God to
be a better parent than me. I'd say also, too, probably most
powerful form of evangelism that you can have as a parent is too
frequently confess your sin and apologize to your child
especially when you have lost your temper with your child or
you've been unfair or you've been insensitive to get down on
your knees and say, "I need to apologize to you.
I sinned against you. And you know Daddy is a sinner
and Dad needs the grace of Jesus Christ
every single day." Because especially for someone
like me who works in the ministry, there's such a
risk of coming off as a huge hypocrite to your child if you
try to act like you're perfect and you don't a humble yourself
and show that you're as depraved as they'll ever be and that
you're as dependent upon the grace of Jesus
as they'll ever be.
