Will Arundhati Roy Be Jailed Under Anti Terror Law for 2010 Speech on Kashmir? I Barkha Dutt LIVE

[Music] will Author arundhati Roy be arrested for a speech she made on Kashmir in 2010 I'm badat you're with the Mojo Story the decision by the Delhi leftenant Governor to allow the prosecution of a claimed author arundhati Roy has made Global headlines and some would argue for all the wrong reasons in 2010 arundhati Roy made a speech on Kashmir that the BJP says was secessionist and separatist in nature but why is the prosecution or the intent and talk of prosecution taking place in 2024 the decision by the Delhi leant Governor to allow this prosecution is is triggering a glob debate what is the signal and the message that the government is trying to send is the Delhi leftenant Governor acting on his own or is this the central government sending a larger message will the government actually move forward with the case and arrest arundhati Roy or is this saber rattling to try and understand both the law and the politics around this let's introduce our guests on the program today if we can bring them up please joining us is arnab R well-known author we're also joined by vinit Goa political analyst and BJP supporter we're also joined by Sanjay hegi uh who's of course a senior Advocate and we're also joined by thein punala Congress supporter and political analyst uh welcome everybody and uh let me actually try and understand what's going on here uh why are we seeing a 200 uh and 10 case alive or res directed in 2024 uh Vin G how do you explain what's happening ramam to you ramam to all my co- panelist and everybody is watching us and T by Eid good wishes to you I think this is an appropriate time I myself have one question why did the LG take so much of time she should have been arrested she should have been punished by now and she should have been made an example by now what she did is something which is I call them as to be enemies within it's an extreme case where you leave stay but yet you try to break that country and she has been doing this and rightfully said by the former CDs General raat he said we are fighting to and a half front War this is that half front where you know your internal enemies your enemies within try to create this kind of R so I think it is delayed LG should have given this permission years back she should have been prosecuted by now she should have served her term by now she should have served her term but given that it didn't happen all these years why is it happening now Vin G according to you she should have been jailed for those comments that's that's the question which is hovering in my mind that okay why was she given this Liberty all these years had a simple citizen done some small things like you know pck pocketing or maybe something like that he would have been punished by now now where somebody has done such a heinous crime of you know trying to speak against the motherland trying to be in Cession with the Deep green and the Deep Reds and we know that she has been funded somebody who has been funded somebody who has all these kind of elements should have been arrested prosecuted and by now she should have finished her terms also so this delay is questionable and I also asking the only thing is you're asking from other angle and I'm asking it from a different angle my angle is right and your angle is also my angle you don't know what my angle is my question simply is one should anyone be put in jail for a speech uh I think the Supreme Court laws on S or the Supreme Court interpretation of sedition is quite clear it has to be an incitement to violence for it to count as sedition and two why what is you know has everybody been asleep all these years including those who think that this is a jailable offense Sanjay Hegde I will bring you in on the law but punala let me bring you in and yes Eid Mubarak to you and everybody else uh T what do you make of what's Happening thank you Bara for having me on the show um there are there is the law that acts because it should act in defense of the country or to uphold the Majesty of the law and then there are bureaucrats and LGS who act or Force the law to act to uphold what they believe is their political agenda and that I think does not uphold the Majesty of the law now I'm not a fan of aruno in fact I think she's stupid and I'm saying this word with absolute no hesitation I think she is ridiculous but stupidity doesn't deserve a SED V said look uh if there was any other person he would have been prosecuted she's been funded from abroad deep green PR but that's not what she's being funded uh is she's being prosecuted for she's being prosecuted for something absolutely stupid that she said and I don't know if stupidity deserves a jail term but let me go back to the case in the US Texas versus Johnson 1984 uh this happened Johnson burned the American flag outside the Republican Senate uh convention and a 5-4 landmark judgment the American Court help and the the fourth the fifth the ninth judge was a conservative judge held that it is important and fundamental that the flag protects even those who hold it in contempt of course George Bush disagreed against it and I think a lot of people do and that's free speech but we are but every time someone says something that does not lead to immediate violence then how can you arrest them 2010 2024 14 years later how how do how's this Justified if she's got illegal money illegal funding by all means prosecute her that's not what she's been prosecuted for something she said in 2010 led to nothing in 2024 you've woken up to to Pro prosecutor now why is this happening if we go deep into it before I end is because the BJP wants to set a political agenda and that's why I said what must be upheld at all costs is the Majesty of the law and the Majesty of the law comes from the basic structure of the Constitution which uphs the right to life liberty and Free Speech if you're going to take away the basic structure of the Constitution which the Vice President of India has and chairperson of rajas saaba has spoken about recently which the ex-chief Justice who is now in rajas SAA see the BJP has spoken about that the basic structure is debatable then I think we're in a lot of trouble because it is only this basic structure that protects all of us a citizen that makes V and me equal but the there's a larger problem in this as I end the minute you take away free speech uh at a time when you find free speech inconvenient you say okay it's not acceptable Free Speech ceases to accept free speech is very good Bara you and I Vita and I will have a great conversation and free speech is flourishing that's not free speech when you and I fight Bara and you uphold my dignity to agree with you and I Appo your right to disagree with me that is the true test of V of democracy and of the law and our constitution so basically you're saying you don't agree with anything arundhati Roy said but you don't think she should be jailed for it either in 2010 or 2024 no I don't agree I think and I'm I'm using the word stupid again I think she's stupid I think she's ridiculous I think she's attention seeking perhaps even she needs psychological help I'm not in judge of that but none of that demand that she be jailed none of that demand she be jailed that's not fair didn't lead to violence immediately H had it led to violence as in the case of shil Iman where I make an exception where he came down and he said India should be cut off Assam should be cut off the chicken neck and all of these states should be made separate so people they suffer that deserves prosecution not this I'm very clear on that Sanjay heg speaking from the perspective of the law the Supreme Court also has a 2013 verdict where it actually says looking at the uapa the anti-terror law in which this prosecu has been granted that the prosecution basis should be explained we do not have a explanation from the leftenant governor as to why he why he has sanctioned this right secondly the Supreme Court has also been quite clear that something is seditious if it incites violence without the incitement to violence the mere expression of an opinion is not sedici what do you believe is going on here do you believe this is weak in law it might be weak or strong in politics that depends on your opinion but is it weak in law ABS it's absolutely weak in law now firstly let me explain to you that this is not a case of sedition uh sanction for sedition was sought and I believe that the leftenant governor had turned it down saying that the Sedition law itself has been kept on in Cold Storage by the Supreme Court now there there are certain disruptive activities which come within the fold of the uapa which are being sought to be applied however the UAP also has rules the rules say that an authority must first recommend that this is a this is a case where the government must Grant sanction after that the government must consider the Authority's recommendation and it is not bound by the recommendation it must Grant S it may Grant sanction it may not Grant sanction without sanction a case can't proceed further so the first thing we have to understand is that we are at a threshold where the government has applied its mind and says this needs to go to prosecute for prosecution however I believe that this very decision to Grant permission is vulnerable and should be struck down by a court firstly on the mere question of delay it doesn't take 14 years to decide whether a speech openly made in a public uh environment I think it was some little theater Auditorium in Delhi and it was covered in the Press at that point of time so in 2010 you take a decision this comes in in the uapa and I'm going to prosecute you can't keep something indefinitely in cold storage and after 14 years say that now I'm going to take it out forget the ordinary law of limitation which would have applied to ordinary crimes under the IPC now I'm going to bring out the sword of the uapa there is a judgment of the Kerala High Court in circumstances which were much less the it was a cpml member called rupesh or or some someone like that and there there was barely a delay of six months but the Kerala High Court said no if you have made rules those rules are mandatory if you haven't followed them then you can't Grant sanction at all I believe that if Miss Roy or the Kashmir professor shakat if either of them were to challenge this on delay the sanction itself would go and with it the entire prosecution so the question then is what is being hoped to be achieved here uh on you're an author yourself uh you know and you you may you may not be on the same side of the political fence as aroy but as we have one of our audience members saying this is a classic case of missing the forest from the trees it actually trivializes anti-terror laws and elevates mroy uh and and you know other of the Roy hasn't been in the headlines for a very long time now she's in the global headlines you know what has been achieved here according to you so uh first of all thank you for having me on the show Bara the last time I was here we were discussing something very similar about nitasha call and uh Nasha calls and my point then was that by doing what the government did they made her brand in this case they're Reviving Miss arundhuti Roy's brand like she's the OG of all agent provocators I would say this is her brand and I would disagree with the scene when he when he says that she's an I think use the word idiot or something of that sort she's absolutely not I mean first of all she's a great novelist uh let's let's all agree on that um or maybe we don't agree on that uh but U but she's definitely very intelligent this is her brand and what the government is doing is in my opinion she's actually become irr irrelevant she was relevant in the 2010s and by doing this they're basically and this is what I tweeted it's like trying to revive the career of Farin Khan in this day and age with a reboot of PR a gun I mean which which I think is a good idea but not this especially because I think what and this is with with uh with nda3 um we have to show as a country and maybe this was an issue in this election is that we should not be concerned as a mature democ Ry with what some people who are in any case going to say this to that audience that we should be concerned as a nation by what they said and by reacting like this and that to 14 years after she said this um because there is no reason right there has been no act of violence that has followed from that and we have had 14 years to see that so if at all anything the situation has become better why would you put that back on the front page internationally when she has no influence in my opinion anyways outside some very rarified academic um let's say places which would listen to let's say a Naomi Klein that kind of she's not mainstream at all so why do you why why do you think they've done it before I take this back to Vin and thein why do you think they've done it um if I could guess they actually wanted to put her on the front page news there were other things that they would rather not have on the front page news at this point of time this was like Bo what can we do hey some there's something lying there from 14 years let's do it right now so is it so it's a good change of headlines is what you're actually saying we don't know vinit G is that what you is that what you say uh is that what you would agree with and let me let me add a point of my own you know U my my election travels started in kanyakumari and ended in Kashmir and this is the point where the government should have been doubling down on the extra ordinary headlines from Kashmir in terms of its turnout right historic turnout instead you've gone back to some old chapter of Kashmir discourse also and as I said in my first dising it is delayed only thing is it is delayed because as per me she should have been convicted and served her terms now see B let me Point make a point separatist or whether is seist whether there are enemies within whether this nexit or there are characters like Ser Imam what tashin B said these all are the output or a product of the seeds which have been sold by these kind of farmers called us you know suzan Arun Roy suzan Ary knows what she does she does it deliberately with full knowledge and she knows that the repercussion don't come in one day or two days she's trying to set an agenda which will create a new world order when I say new world order it means orders for weapons from both the side whether it is from the security forces she so she's so powerful one person can set a new world order one person can set a new world order then she should have been able to define the she should have been able to ensure a loss for Prime Minister Modi to start with forget a new world order no so who say that she's only one this is your assumption when there is an investigation you identify then you'll know what are her links so let the investigating agencies have their own work done they will identify whether she's a lone wolf or she is a part of the larger deep green and deep red uh cartel around you which wants to break the country do you VIN G do you think that she should be sent to jail for her opinion on Kashmir expressed in 2010 and what might you think might will that make India look like in the eyes of the world so let me answer your second question first and then I'll answer the first one it will send a serious message to the world that we don't take separatist and enemies within lightly we will take the same actions what you you expect us to take against people like them or USSR to take against like that there are Provisions this law and she world will look at us in a higher SP lightly one and let me answer your first question I wish I wish there were stringent law and which could have been taken up S with the courts when the courts can open at 3:00 for terrorist why can't the courts call the government why did you delay this they should punish people who have delayed this they should take this on The Fast Track the authorities why did they take 11 years okay let me let me let let me get reactions I think you're today the only person on this panel who thinks that she should be arrested for her comments uh whether T and Orab don't agree with her comments uh but they don't think she should be jailed for them uh t uh you know the point is this has become a proxy political argument between supporters of the BJP and supporters of the opposition uh what are the politics of this what line do you think the opposition would would and should take on this not get into not play on this pitch because this pitch is a victory for Prime Minister Modi he will win on this pitch so don't play on this pitch explain explain that explain that expl let expl uh let good lawyers like Sanjay B here um defender in court and let the courts do their job no don't make political speeches don't get into the politics of it Parliament is starting on 24 there's lot to hold is government on ground for Arun DTI Roy is not going to be the center of it why is it happened just before Parliament it's happened just because before Parliament because the government is scared that now with the opposition and it increased trength 232 versus 290 odd there will be at least in the Lo saaba there'll be opposition they'll be heard they'll be forced to hear the opposition how do what is the best way to to stop an opposition by diverting the issue and the BJP particularly the prime minister is a master diversions so and every time the opposition takes bait Falls for that bait and and and argues on issues that don't really matter you ask a common man on the road right now and I'm and and I know that Free Speech must be protected but you ask a common man on the road who Arun daoy as much as Arab thinks she's a great novelist which I don't the common man on the RO doesn't know he might perhaps know fardin Khan is and between Arun and fardin I prefer Farin but jokes apart it's not your core issue right now um so the opposition shouldn't fall into the Trap of the BJP let the BJP do what it has to do let have let's have good lawyers like Sanjay good authors like anab come there and defend it or do what they have to do let the law tick itss cost don't fall for this political battle I'm very clear about it the minute you fall the only there's going to be only one winner and that's going to be the BP but on the larger end I think what the opposition can do but when you say that one minute one minute there's a contradiction in your response when you say that if the opposition plays on this pitch the BJP is the winner that means that you think the BJP has not been quite so silly as its critics are saying in raising this issue you think that there is smart done deliberately is please the idea you are more then all of us put together here of course it's done 2010 the aim or says the aim is diverent what do you think the aim is diversion there are the opposition with 230 is going to come with bigger strength in loksabha they're not going to have answers chra Babu Naidu is tickling them I don't think he'll take the speaker for the speaker post there is going to be some amount of pressuring on the prime minister they don't want that they want to run the so what is the best way they the best way to avoid any serious discussion is diver to issues that don't matter somebody said something in 2010 vene says that listen this is a very ious issue she could have broken up the country created a new world order but the country didn't break a new world order was not created then he says in 2024 we should investigate if she could do it if my Chachi had an Adam's apple she would be my Chacha it doesn't work like that she doesn't have an Adam's apple she's not my so you can't come down in 2024 and say if she in 2010 could have created a new world order no it doesn't work like that so there is no New World Order created Kashmir continues to remain an integral part of India in fact most of ation of article 37 in August 5 2019 I think there will be people who say stupid things just like Farin Khan did stupid movies you let go of them okay I don't know where we've gone with our metaphors today with Chacha chachis Adam apple and fine Khan so it's it's good to be able to enjoy a joke or two also once again v g let me get Sanjay and on up and then I'll come back to you uh Sanjay what happens now what happens now like explain to us the modality now the governor has allowed sanction for prosecution see what will possibly happen is that this very a sanction will be challenged in a court of law and interim protection sought there is another is also I believe that even a charge sheet has not been filed so without a charge sheet what exactly did the governor sign left and Governor sanction that also is a question you have an incomplete investigation and you've already given sanction for a prosecution the other thing I would like to disagree with theine is that she's a she's not stupid b what she said I was just reading the speech much much more has been said in the Supreme Court in the course of arguments in 370 itself so the situation in 2010 was a different thing the situation today may be a totally different thing when you are making a decision in 2024 to prosecute you can you cannot impute uh all that you know in 2024 to the situation in 2010 so there is more than one reason for this to be struck down and yes and the politics part of it thein may be entirely right that the opposition parties need not get into this uh Miss Roy is quite capable of being a one woman opposition to to not only the government here but she's been in opposition to most of governments all over the world the difference is that most governments all over the world do not come into jail her some of them actually provide her a platform listen to her and say thank you very much we've heard you yeah the real the real test of a democracy is how you treat those who are are not in the common medium how you treat your writers your even your eccentrics how big is the imagination that you allow your citizens but you we cannot simply say shut up you if you say this we will lock you that is not a democracy but I want to pick up on one one excellent point that you've madeen briefly and then orner uh that so much has changed the 370 you know Kashmir has changed and we are we are not just Reviving or not Reviving arun's relevance as Orab says you are Reviving an old discourse around Kashmir this this discourse is not applicable in today's context it's been tried tested discussed you know in the Supreme Court that's true but the idea is also the remember the last couple of weeks there have been terrible fire ings at jamu and most people who are BJP supporters says Kashmir Jam where kids have been massacred so I think this is also to avoid from that but I just disagree with Sanjay on one thing you see something said in Supreme Court first of all I did follow the 370 arguments Supreme Court nobody said Kashmir is not a part of India they spoke about the autonomy of Kashmir within the constitution of India which can be legitimately argued for which I think is fine they are the autonomous part her she's very specific Kashmir is not a part of India and to me as much as I support Free Speech it's unacceptable you say that every part is a part of India you can't say that it's and I then I think when you say that you're seeking attention or you're stupid how do you say something's not a part of India we we we are your passport if you're a passport holder an Indian passport holder you accept that kashm is a part of India so I don't think I don't think that is an acceptable thing to say um does she need to go to a jail no but it's not acceptable and and I don't think that was said in Supreme Court at Kashmir is not a part yeah so so so the question then to Orab is if something is not acceptable where which sorry sanj were you were you wanting a line sanj sanj I I was saying of course it was said that Kashmir was not integrated into India except through 370 and that breaking the 370 Buckle effectively detached Kashmir that was also an argument which was made but arundati is please also read what arundhati said and in what context she said that earlier she was asked in jaran aggressively by a reporter is it an integral part of India is it an integral part of India and there she says that my response is this this this this this so yeah the it's a entirely nuanced thing that she said and we should not go simply by headlines and hashtags but the question Orab is if everybody thinks that we don't agree with arundhati does the state have any business responding again it comes back to incitement of violence I think the Supreme Court has put that framework quite well on citiz that you know speech by itself is not secession is not ction speech which incites violence is seditious would you have in 2010 and 2024 just either ignored arundhati Roy or contested her with a better you know what you would say is a better set of ideas what what should the state's response be so first of all uh let me just Al answer you question but before I get to that there was a question of political strategy here so the only political strategy that I can think of other than deflecting headlines is it's a trap for the opposition so if you if you stand up and say I support the you can then legitimately attack the opp the opposition by saying they're supporting what arandu Roy said and that distinction is difficult to make it's a subtle point that I don't agree with arundhuti royy but I stand by her right to say that can be diffused in political rhetoric that look the Congress has gotten back to saying exactly what we say they say this so I think it's a trap and that's the only thing that I can think of charitably if this was a master plan I don't think it is but the Congress would do well not to step into this trap of any of the opposition but coming to that I would again reiterate the point that if if Mr Modi wants us to be a visha guru which is to lead the world to kind of then it is very important for us to behave like adults and one of the things that you know an adult does is to understand the level of a threat perception and to understand what is a threat and what is a tantrum so this is nothing but a tantrum and this behooves the Indian state to just ignore it and besides the fact that they're making aruti Roy's career again leaving that to the side if we want us we we really want us to think of ourselves as world leaders these are things which we should absolutely ignore that's that's that's actually well said and I'm going to take last comments vinit Goa if you want to be a visha guru you have to allow your outliers I think Sanji heg used the word eccentrics individuals who are on the margins who do not reflect the dominant opinion of a country to be there Express their opinion you cannot jail people you cannot be a world leader and jail people for having a unpalatable opinion that is the argument being made yeah go ahead yeah I heard there uninterrupted three four rounds of talking from them and got some learning at least now I'm will go a little more intelligent but one request to T don't rivalize this matter has to be BJP versus opposition don't bring politics in everything well there has to be an investigation why this delay happened for 11 years this should have been done then and there itself you cut the cancer there and there itself okay when I said World Order T by it is about orders of the weapons and the equipments which we as a state had to do and the terrorist did it to harm us so please understand that it's not a very simple thing you also made a point of Uncle and the Apple maybe your learning tells you that Adam is the only guy who can eat the apple but I have one more learning I read bhagat Gita where Krishna took care of his uncle K when he saw that he was not doing just things so I have been brought up like that and see if I would have been the uh Prosecuting agency I would have also put homicide against this lady because you know when she pushes innocent Kashmir innocent Muslims to take arms in the hand she's responsible for this particular activity so for me descent is okay but when you deliberately inite people under the N of separatist uh then they should be dealt with iron hand and then lastly one thing I'll tell you you know Arab G talked about her career this is exactly Arab G unknowingly said this is her career this is where she was paid and she did this with intention of career so we cannot ignore that there I D SAR or agencies should should take action and also we should penalize those people who delayed this action taking so we should rather ask one question why didn't you take action 11 years back okay okay sanj sanj if there isn't an interim restraint is there an uh is there a kind of immediate arrest that follows from San for prosecution or is there a lot that has to happen before no it would be up to the investigating agency right so if you want headlines or you want more of these headlines if there is no order from a court then the investigating agency which has not filed a charge sheet yet might say that we want custodial interrogation but if but what do you think is more likely to happen well I think they have got their headlines they've got their distraction beyond beyond this it would be globally counterproductive we can't uh be the Vish Guru of petulent nationalism so I I I think I think uh that uh if there is an arrest it would have to be cleared at the highest levels yeah uh do you think orup talking about political strategy it's one thing to trap the Congress for a couple of days it's another thing to be as Sanjay heg and you have also implied be the visha guru of petulant nationalism I mean even strategy taken that far becomes a self- goal possibly you're right but I think at this point of time it's all about headline management and the immediate gains so I don't think people are thinking long-term if at all this is part of political strategy which I also doubt I think this is there's there's no method behind this madness I think it's just to control the headlines for a few days I I don't think they're thinking about world image and the right thing to do I I I don't think they're thinking on those lines T last word sorry v v you had one line and then T yeah say then I'll speak because I'm taking concluding remarks so then I'll give the last one so you know I like the way everybody likes to tralize it headline management as if they know all the politics and the things going on in the mind of the Prime Minister sir for a God's sake understand that there have more issues to be dealt with as I said she is somebody should be handled by an IO level officer investigating level officer not even a commissioner of police so please sir don't tralize the entire matter it's about my motherland you may like my motherland may not like that is your issue but you cannot speak against my motherland sir we take great objection to this you try whatever no one no one is speaking no one is speaking against our country headline management as if you know as if she's it's a it's a particularized efforts Vin G Vin G Vin G in politics in politics there are many other things happening Kashmir is not a the terror attacks in Jammu are a live issue but the discourse of Miss Roy is not a inated because an innocent Muslim is instigated because of her statement she not sitting sitting she would have been sitting in such such okay last word I I want to agree with everything my friend V said everything except that the most powerful man in the universe and his Deputy the second most powerful man in the universe The Honorable prime minister and home minister are compromising with the tripura Liberation Front which even today right now right now if you go on to the website wants tripura to be separate from India as of now they have a Naga card which 2017 they were supposed to show you Bara they haven't got it which the Naga Rebel say ask for a separate Parliament ask for a separate flag the Prime Minister I RI the r Ravi the the governor of T of Tamil Nadu has signed it they are in Alliance or they were in Alliance with akalal which burnt the Indian constitution their members burned the Indian constitution couple of years ago and jman and the protest so the BJP has no morality to preach but look like I said of course this is about headline management this is about moving diverting issues from jamu the minute you come up at Manipur you go to Rajasthan this is the this is classic BJP tactic don't fall for for it one last thing I'm glad v p learned a lot just one minor thing I would like to teach you if K had uh if K had a laral prominence of the thyroid cartilage he too would be krishna's Auntie so it's not about Adam eating an apple it's about a scientific term that is called Adam's Apple just to tell you if K didn't have that he too would be krishna's Aunt so just to put that in perspective nothing to do with Adam and Christianity okay San I think sanj wants to sent one second sanj wants to sent sanj sanj no no I I was inspired by vene going to just imagine Pakistani terrorists reading arundhati Roy that would be cruel and hard punishment unusual punishment Orab did you want to add to that just wanted to say that that is exactly what I also wanted to say that you know futi if Pakistani is are reading arundhuti Roy this would be a huge increase in market for arundhuti Roy it's again all good for her I I really doubt having read arund Roy that anybody who's going to pick up a gun will even make it past the first sentence of any of her writings okay okay it shall be it shall be interesting to see what happens next let's leave it there V going or punala at least we've had a good laugh there should be some irony and wit in the most serious of discussions and disagreements that's what democracy is also all about thank you very much gentlemen and to our audience thank you for watching have a great day and see you soon it's great to see you here thank you for watching our work if you haven't subscribed cribe yet don't forget to click the Bell icon And subscribe to wo story and support independent robust journalism [Music]

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Id: C_UXw7IPbPI

Length: 36min 17sec (2177 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 17 2024