[Music] well hello everyone welcome to uh why Christianity thank you so much for uh joining us this morning we got a little bit of a late start but that's all right we have a incredible guest for you this morning Dr J Smith I'm excited to have him with me and I'm gonna go ahead and bring him on now and U welcome Dr J Smith thank you so much for uh taking the time to be on my Channel today and looking forward to listening to you and U Learning a little bit this morning how are you it's good to be here thanks for having me on this is my first time that I've been on your channel uh but listen Allen we worked together we've been on the same platform together in different conferences so this is nice that I can finally come on your platform here yeah I was uh I was telling somebody the other day that God does still perform Miracles I I found my myself on stage with Jay Smith and Anthony Rogers and hun and and you know honestly sitting up there I'm like how in the world did I end up here but what what an honor um to to be a part of that uh and certainly love um you know working with Muslims and sharing the gospel with them and just appreciate your work yeah that was in September where we were together and uh in California you're referring to Yes um and then I think also in in July right when we were in Detroit yeah that's right yeah that's what I was thinking of was was Detroit Dearborn yeah but because totally different personalities different types of ministry what you're doing is different than what no one does what what haton does and uh no one is capable of doing what haton does she's so unique and then Anthony Rogers what a mind he has got and his ability to just take scripture unpack it and then show exactly why it's important and also to be able to walk through scripture and find the Trinity all the way through the the Old Testament find and look and see how we can really pinpoint the the antecedence to the Divinity of Jesus Christ and also show that all of scripture fits together it's so good to have someone of his mind his ability and his background and then of course you there on board with us who's actually using it in the uh on the trenches and working with Muslims it's great to have a whole panoply of different styles and different Ministries and different gifting that we had both there in Dearborn and then also you and I were together earlier than that in North Carolina weren't we that's right yes with Anthony huton wasn't there but with Anthony and uh then when we were in California together we also uh had David wood and so again another great mind ability to really say things very piffy and able to bring humor and cynicism and satire into his his um oratory to on top of which he um he has a great grasp of how to engage with Muslims philosophically and also theologically yeah I used to think you guys had just some kind of elaborate note system set up and you were you know looking at those notes and then I watched you live and and uh I think you're you're a lot like Anthony Rogers you know you you present different material but you're you know you're speaking from your heart and you have all this stuff in your head and uh what what a what a a great gift that God's giving you you know you know Alan the reason why that is and that has to do with with speaker corner for 25 years every Sunday I was down at speaker Corner when you're at speaker corner you don't have any computer in front of you you have no books you can't carry books with you you have no notes it came to a point where we did have iPhones but you couldn't see them because it was so bright we couldn't see it so we never used it so if you're going to get up on that lad in front of hundreds maybe thousands of people and they're going to be throwing questions at you and you have to answer those questions you better have everything in your head and here's what's terrible they do have iPhones they do have smartphones and they're recording you and if you get one date wrong or if you get one person's name wrong or one incident incorrect or if you quote somebody and you misquote it you know that that evening it's going to be all over the Internet and you're going to be lambasted the next week you come down there they're going to miss show the quotes they going to laugh at you yell so we had to as a team all of us Beth grov she's now Beth pela uh hatun Tosh was on my team that she was one we kind of I trained her up to do the work though she would not get on the ladder after I left she only gets on when I'm there but all of us especially when you're on a ladder you have to make sure that you have everything in your head because you're on stage you're it's theater it's great theater and the part of theater is you have to memorize your lines in our case we have to memorize our material but see that helps me now I don't you notice I don't have any books in front of me I don't have any notes I don't have I'm just looking at you there's nothing I'm going to look at whatever question you're going to throw at me I have to be able to recall it and be able to answer it and be able to Source what I'm saying from that recalling otherwise I'm going to be held accountable so it's a great training ground a place like speaker corner it's Unique in the world that's why huton so able to do that I don't know how David wood keeps all his figures in facts in his head because he doesn't have that background uh nor does Anthony Rogers I just think they have great minds better Minds than I do absolutely well listen before we uh you know get into it um you know some of the material that you're going to present I want to ask you you know we talked beforehand um do you have any kind of update at all on hunon um can you tell us anything about uh what's going on with her well we do know she's safe we do know she's alive and we do know now pretty much uh that uh she is uh I'm I'm guessing she's under police protection there's no way of doing that she hasn't said so I'm just saying it this is my guess right when you and the reason why is because of this Edward little this fellow who came with a gun he was on his way to buy a gun he had 5,000 pounds that's about $8,000 in his napsack here's a guy off the street who just become a Muslim a convert to Islam where did he get 5,000 PS from where' he get $8,000 obviously someone was Sting him in fact he didn't even know who she was in his backpack when he got stopped by the police after getting off the train there in London he had a picture of haton so he knew she who who so he could recognize her and he had a map of Speaker's Corner so he was on his way to Speaker's Corner on a Sunday to shoot her with the gun he even had the address of the guys that he was going to buy the gun from and those guys have been arrested there's three of them have been arrested now he gets caught and he is now incarcerated well this I think it was December 15th December 15th was his court case knowing that his court case was coming up and knowing that this is going to be there that there are other people who sent him to do what he was going to do who paid for that gun or gave him the 5,000 pounds and would like to finish the task and also what greater way than to show that he is successful by killing haton that's why they put her they took her away and they put her under not house arrest but under uh uh what's the word they use where victim uh housing what there's a name for it I can't remember what it is yeah something prote where they're where they're protecting the victim they they know and this and they give them a probably even a different identity I don't know and you don't even when that happens you don't even tell your spouse in many cases if it's that dangerous in this case she was not able to tell any of her team which is really unusual she disappears all the time she goes on overseas trips she goes sometimes she goes into places that are dangerous I can't tell you where they are or what they are what exactly how she does it uh she goes under the radar all the time and when she goes she went always tells her team her dcci team this time she didn't nothing was told nothing she missed the meeting that she was supposed to have been at uh on that Saturday on the 26th of December I think it was and so that's why people knew something was wrong when she didn't show up so from that time on um it was more it was before 26 December I can't remember the date off off the top of my head uh because it's not that it's not that important but here's what's interesting we didn't know at all if she was alive three different emails came out where she says don't worry about me I'm safe but they were just general emails uh from the dcci email which anybody can hack it it wouldn't be too hard to hack that email so nobody really knew if this was really her there's no way to David would also too to another friend on her team and one to a person here in in the United States so finally back in in January right the beginning of January right after Christmas I then sent her a mail on her dcci which is the general one and I said huton you need to tell me something specific at a conference we were at three things actually I just asked her to tell me one thing that only she and I knew that only I would know that that's from her no one else would be privy to this not even my wife and she wrote back me an email then about 3 Days Later says Jay please tell people to stop writing into the police I am safe I am okay and then she told me not one but three things that were specific to that incident that only she and I knew about that only I would know about to prove it was her and no one else and then she and I could see this was not done under duras because she even then introduced some other new material that I hadn't even thought about and she brought that into the equation so that's why I know we know that it was her and then David wood got a phone call about two days after that saying that he saying that and and so talking to her and she said much the same message stop this we don't I don't need your help I am fine I am safe I'll let you know what's going on when the time comes well that's that's very encouraging um glad to you know to hear that we we'll continue to pray for I've you know we've had our church praying for my Sunday School school class and uh they're they're constantly asking me if I've you know heard any news but uh we know that uh she's in the Lord's hands and I just have the utmost respect for her and what she does but um here's one other thing on any given week hotun is discipling 600 new Believers in Christ mbbs that's what she told me back in September on any given week now to do that she has to use YouTube sorry she has to use the internet not YouTube she has to use zoom usually she uses Zoom or what we're using here streamyard but she's always always discipling them on her computer and they're in other countries all over the world these are people from the Lord interesting not one of them has said anything about her disappearance have you noticed that so what does that tell you I know what it tells me she is still using the internet and she is still discipling those people and she is still in contact with them that's what I'm guessing because we haven't heard a word from any of them that there's a problem here proving that she is still accessible she does have access to the internet that means but she chooses not to get on to her dcci uh um her dcci um account or her other one the one that's uh both of them are dcci so she has her plans and looks like she's going to wait until she's ready and she has to be the one that tells us what's going on and what's happening yeah I shared uh in one live stream I remember um when I flew into California you know there was a gentleman there that picked me up and uh we were we were waiting on hotun and uh I didn't know what she looked like and this is of course the first time I'd ever seen her but uh we looked for you know we waited for about 3 hours you know just constantly looking and here she come and she was abs absolutely loaded down with bags and you know different things and she she's a very strong will woman you know she wouldn't let us carry anything for her um you know get the car door for her I mean she was she's very respectful about it but she's uh she's very independent and and strong willed and I guess she has to be doing what she's doing but um and did she tell you why she was three hours late no honestly I was I was zombie I had I flew from uh Charlotte North Carolina to Chicago to Texas and then on to LA and then sat there and wait on waited on her for about three hours so it was is never late why do you think she was three hours late it's a good question the airplane the airlines probably no the airplane you saw when the airplane landed right I did yes but I wasn't sure three hours after the airplane landed she was in interrogation m H she didn't even tell you that did she no I never even thought of it only she gets interrogated for three hours they interrogated I think it was for two and a half hours actually then half an hour for her to get her luggage and everything else together because it had already gone through and it was been put I think it was been locked up when people don't pick up their luggage they lock it up and so she had to get that out out of security that shows you what what she has to live she has to live a different life than you and me I don't get interrogated for two hours two and a half hours when I go to Britain she did coming here and that's the problem she has to live with because of uh uh because she's so notorious yeah I'm surprised you didn't ask her why is she so late well you you don't uh you know we sat down in the car and and and and I you know before I met her I thought I was a pretty good apologist but uh she started firing questions at me from the get-go and you I didn't have I didn't have a chance to ask her you know a whole lot of anything but uh she was susing you out yeah it it was an honor to meet her and to meet you as well but um we we were also talking you know before we got started here um about you know the material that you present this this historical argument that you're pretty well known for and we were talking about how easy it is for people to understand and I have uh you know spent the last 12 years of my life you know studying and um you know working on various deg reason and one of the problems that I see is that a lot of well-known apologists their material is is above a lot of people's heads um it's U they just can't grasp a lot of it and and I think that's a that's a problem that we need to you know to think very carefully about we as I mean at least um as as pastors and and church leaders and even the evangelist an apologist our our our job is to equip the people to to do the work of the service to you to go out and and to interact with these Muslims and um I just appreciate this uh this historical material that you're going to present for us today and um again I'm just grateful that it's it's actually useful for a lot of people you were sharing about uh the last time you I think you spoken at Calvary Chapel Hills was that right yeah and uh you tell us about that and you what you told me let back up and tell you why we're why I'm even doing this and it has to do um back in the 1900s that seems like a long time ago doesn't it way back in the um when I was um when when we were I was in London I had just come to London uh in 1992 so we're talking about in the last century 1992 we had just come there I was going to Speaker's Corner I was told that's the best place to learn your apologetics which is true as I said earlier and then in 1994 I was taking a course uh under a professor called Dr Gerald hating who was at that time the world Authority on what I call the origins argument it's called the origins how did what was the origin of anything the origins of Christian the origins of Buddhism and the origins of Islam this is a this is a whole new area that no one really has touched at least in depth and he was introducing a he had a course called the the origins of Islam I took it out of curiosity uh I thought I knew everything about how Islam began I didn't think I was going to hear anything new I had already had a master's degree in Islamic Studies from Fuller Seminary under Dr Dudley Woodbury and I thought goodness sakes what what's more can he teach me all you do is you read the S of of Muhammad the S which would be the biography of Muhammad and that's written by Alfred Gom translated by Alfred Gom about from Ian isak iban isak lays it all out exactly Muhammad's story and how Islam began with him now of course Muslims will come back say no Islam has always been but the Islam that we see today the Islam of Mecca and Medina the Islam of the Quran that Islam I'm talking about yeah that Islam began with Muhammad and so I thought I knew everything so I go into class there right all in and there are what maybe 50 students in the class and this Dr haunting uh he starts introducing and he starts saying you know we don't have any reference to this guy named Muhammad at all in the seventh century and I'm say wait a minute hold on a minute IB isak I put my hand said what about iban isak he was right there and hating says do you know when he done died well no some some are in the 7th Century no he died in 765 that's the mid eth century you think he was there 130 years earlier did he live for 130 years are you saying I mean he just kind of threw it right back in my lap he wasn't being foolish he didn't mind try to make a fool out of me I had never heard the dates nobody had told me these dates and see the Muslims you're going to read or you talk to no one none of the Muslims know these dates of these people oh they know the name is and and alari and sah Muslim and I and these are all the dates that they grew up with I'm sorry the names that they grew up these are household names what you don't know is that these guys died at a certain time like we all died but nobody ever bothered to look and see when they lived or where they lived he said listen this is 130 years later that you're reading this story but he says did you do you think that story is from him I said well yeah it is he said did you read the introduction by Alfred Guam Alfred Guam spells up very quickly that this is not from iban isak it's attributed to iban isak but it's actually written by a guy named iban Hisham in 833 he dies in 833 so he's writing maybe the first the last 20 years of his life so say 810 to 810 to 833 that's 200 years after Muhammad died so the earliest we hear anything and I'm sitting there listening to this and I'm scratching my I well then what about the Hadith at least you know the Hadith alari he was there he says no he died in age 70 that's the late 9th century that's 240 years after Muhammad died he died and he would have been writing the F you know the last 20 years of his life right or at least what is written down would have been written within his lifetime so let's say 870 I said yikes well as he's saying this and he says Abu or even they come after Al bhari I said well then what about the the the history the history there are certainly the history is uh from people that knew him history alab you're talking about yes alabi alab died in 923 that's the 10th Century that's even later that's 300 years and I'm sitting there scratching my head but I'm not the only one listening to this all the other students around me were listening to this about half the class were Muslim Students about 20 25 of them and they were hearing this and they had all been told since they were kni to a grasshopper that These Guys these are household names for them they've heard of IB is andam and alari and sah Muslim andb and certainly alabri and BWI and Jan Makari and suyuti and all these guys every one of them were from the ninth 10th of suti is from the 16th century none of them were from the 7th Century not one knew Muhammad now he didn't have to say it like I've just said it right he said you know what that means none of these guys knew Muhammad actually I don't recall now whether he said that or I said that because I kept on raising my hand you know I was the oldest person there because these are all young students in their their teens and 20s and I was there in my 40s and I kept on raising my head I said wait a minute wait a minute so you're telling me that none of these guys actually lived at the time Muhammad they never knew Muhammad they never heard Muhammad they never saw what he did or heard what he said like we have with Jesus Christ Matthew Mark Luke and John well Matthew and John they were there in the first century they were with Jesus for the last three years they saw what he did they saw the Miracles he did they heard what he said they wrote down what he said and did Mark and and uh Mark and Luke got it from those who did hear what Jesus said and did I said we don't have anything like that for Islam he says there's nothing like that for Islam he said 'you know I spent 20 years as a scholar trying to find anything wrong with the Bible and I'm a historian he said and what I do is I look and I try to see whether the historical facts fit the evidence on the ground that's what I do that's what a historian should do and for 20 years I've been doing this against against Christianity after 20 years I gave up however he said the skills that I use against the Bible are the same skills I would use against the Quran because you have like with like you're in the same part of the world you're with the same kind of people and you're using the same languages I already had the languages down I knew Arabic I knew Acadian I knew Syriac I knew uh Hebrew and Greek these are the languages that we're all taught to do as as as as Scholars of the Middle East we have to learn these so I said I already have the skills I already have and also I knew about redactor criticism and Source criticism he says I knew everything about textual criticism and all these different criticism against the Bible I just took those same criticisms and I went over this direction and he says for the last 20 years I've been applying applying them against the crown we couldn't find anything wrong with the Bible that hadn't already been found it already been done over and everything had been had been answered now suddenly we're finding all kinds of stuff against the Quran the very same things we've asked in the Bible the Quran cannot answer the very same things we've asked of Jesus Christ Islam cannot answer about Muhammad the very same thing we asked about Jerusalem they can't answer about Mecca I said Mecca what do you mean Mecca oh you didn't know about Mecca I said no what are you talking about there is no reference to Mecca I said there's no reference yeah Dr patsha Corona found that I said who's Dr ptia kurona now it was like and as I'm having this discussion with with now it didn't happen all in one day it happened over about period of two weeks because everything he kept on coming up with like he said did you know the Dome of the Rock has no kibla I said' wait a minute the largest structure of its day the most resplendent building it's beautiful there has that golden D said no no no no no no no hold on a minute that golden dome is not original I said it isn't he said I said wasn't that build by Abdul Malik in 691 he says yeah but it didn't look like that I said what do you mean said look at your history that's been destroyed and rebuilt 11 times the only original part he said is the inner ambulatories those two amtor is they're in the in inside he said but even that doesn't have a kiblah I said how can it not have a kiah it's the third most holy Shrine in Islam it's where all the Muslims believe why they want Jerusalem back because that's where all the Muslims believe Muhammad went in the middle of the night called M and he went up on the W back of the wing horse called abak and he flies up from Mecca up to Jerusalem and the Ascend the seven Heavens I said that story's got to be there he says okay see if you can find it look at the inner ambulatory the only original part look at the inscriptions there and see if you can find it so as I'm having this kind debate with him it was fun and I you could see he was enjoying it but the other students weren't suddenly I noticed that one of the after another of these Muslim Students started getting up walking to the door and slamming the door oh I don't know what that thing's doing up there right there my computer loves it my computer listens to me all the time and it puts up a one you'll see some balloons go up after a little while and so here he they start slamming the door and yelling at Dr hating saying things that were not very pleasant as they left they were leaving the class why because they had never heard this material before it wasn't just me that had not heard it they had never heard it and they knew how damaging this was and they could not sit under that they couldn't come up they were quiet they some of them once at the very beginning someone said certainly you got your dat dates wrong he says no these are not my dates these are your dates go up on Wikipedia go up on branica encyclopedia and look at the dates for these guys ibam Al Muslim look and see what their dates are says they're all there it's just that you haven't been taught this because you're not taught this in your Islamic schools so as I was watching this I said wow this is amazing I've got to take this down I've got to try it out now remember from 199 92 I was up down at speaker Corner every day I was not up on a ladder I was always on the ground I didn't know how to do ladder all are we taught to do this at Seminary or Bible School how to get up on a ladder and preach no we're taught to do 20 minute sermons and people listen to us right they listen to us they talk and they and they you know they may applaud us but at least they don't Hackle us and they don't get up and walk away because of what we're saying but we we don't even do a Q&A homiletics you're taught how to take an idea Source it in scripture apply it using three different applications and then and then that's then you let them go back to their dinner and you better keep it to 20 minutes otherwise you're gonna have a lot of people sleeping on you so we're not taught how to get up on a ladder and take on and engage in a volatile situation a very hostile situation where they're going to yell at you and maybe throw some few punches if they don't like what you're saying that is what speaker Corner was like in the 1990s it's not like that today anymore not since 9 since 9911 everything changed and it been par them the narrative became we are people of Peace it's a religion of Peace but before that it was not so back then in 1993 94 I was going down and I heard this stuff in 1994 I decided to take it down to Speaker's Corner on the ground wow goodness sakes I I I got punched I had my glasses broken H they these people were these Muslims did not they didn't know how to answer it and so they use fists to answer me and I realized this is amazing but I unbeknownst to me someone was filming me well you know there are lots of camera and back then you didn't have smartphones you had these big wuming cameras you put on your shoulder back in the 1990s and there was no internet and so these were these big VHS cameras remember the VHS you got gray hair you know what I'm talking about anybody that doesn't have well we're talking about these big boxes where you with uh with two spools inside the tape that go across well they were filming me and they were selling this film uh in some of the bookstores these Muslim bookstores there in London and one of the students in our class found this it was on the front you know as he went in it was being displayed uh in the window and he went and bought it and he gave it to Dr Gerald haunting with me using his material at Speaker's Corner and he called me into his office he was angry and he gave me about a 10minute uh a 10min diet tribe against what I was doing he really really wailed into me and he said don't you ever do this again how dare you take what I'm teaching you and use it as Speaker Corner The Last Place on Earth you should be using it and I said hold hold on wait a minute wait a minute Dr hating you're teaching this material I'm your student once you teach it to me it no longer belongs to you once you give once you give me a lecture I am free to do with it what ever I want I can even plagiarize you though I would I would be caught out for plagiarism but I'm not plagiarizing you I'm saying who you are he said you're giving my name I said yes don't you ever give my well then what who am I name am I supposed to give he said do you realize how dangerous this is I said yes this is exciting of course it's dangerous it's exactly what we need and he says you may get me killed I said hold on hold on stop and think what you're saying you're not down at speaker Corner introducing this I am yeah I'm the one that's going to get killed not you I'm the one that's getting punch in the face not you if anything I'm putting my life on the line for you and I'm field testing your material in the most volatile environment the best environment to hear peerreview you want peerreview I'm getting you peerreview within seconds you have to wait six months if you write a book on this material you have to write six months to a year before you get a first article that reviews what saying and most of those will be benign because they're done by other academic because only academics listen to you I'm taking it down to the street where it belongs I'm taking it out to where people need to hear this I'm going to the place where you're going to get the most the most reaction the best reaction and it is yes it is volatile I agree it is volatile but I'm doing you a favor because I'm fuel testing and see what's your what are the material that works what doesn't work and I'm coming back every every week and I'm telling you this work this doesn't work here's a question and I asked how do you answer this have you noticed that's why I'm ask put up my hand all the time but see he the gears started going in his mind and he was saying hold on a minute I'm losing all my students and I get paid depending on how many students I have in a class I could see his dilemma more than that these students are starting to go to the higher ups and they're saying this man is lying you need to stop this is all trash this is islamophobia yeah that's when islamophobia started being introduced wasn't that early actually it came later on but they said this is hate speech is what they were saying and he was getting calls from his supervisor saying you need to tone this down well what he knew he knew that it wasn't he that needed a toen down it was me that needed a toen down I was his problem because I was the one that was raising my hand and telling them to come conclusions and he did not want to come to the it came to the point where any time he said something new and I raised my hand he said I'm not going to answer that you can come to your own conclusions he would not come to conclusions because he saw what was happening within two weeks every Muslim except for two had left only Muslims stayed for the whole year all the other Muslims had left and he left he lost half his class because of this material and also because of me I'm sure I had something to do with it because I kept on putting my hand up there saying you've got to come to conclusion help me with this this doesn't make sense I've never heard this before and neither had anybody else this was all so new so that was 1995 and that's when I got beat up really bad at speaker corner so bad conscious a black man put himself over top of me and took the blows for me and when that police finally pulled me out they said don't you ever do that again you need to get on a ladder and from that point on from 1995 I had to be on a ladder and for my safety for my safety right my own safety well uh you know just thinking you know thinking the Speaker's Corner and uh thinking about how things you know go down over there so to speak and uh what what are some things maybe that you saw over there that would be helpful to us here in the United States because I'm I'm constantly telling people in our churches that uh you know you're not going to have a problem talking with Muslims here in the United States if you're talking to them face to face if they're your cooworker or whatever Muslims love to talk about God they love to talk about Jesus and and we don't have to deal with a lot of these things that you you know you're sharing about they're taking place here in the OR there in the UK um is there anything that uh that you see that or anything that you perhaps learned while you were there that would be very helpful for us here in the United States yeah and I think I think there's lots of different things you can do I've been working now in Islam for 40 years over over 40 years now I started in 1983 we're into 2024 so 41 years we've been working Islam my wife and I and what I noticed alland is that the only Paradigm I had was to confront Muhammad's character that's all that anybody ever did was to confront the Quran the internal part the problem with the violence the problem with the misogyny the problem with the crudity and all the problem of irrelevancy of the Quran and the irrelevancy of Muhammad and how what he did with women what he did with what he did with families what he did with anybody that stood against him those are the things that we've been confronting which makes sense to us because we've been comparing him with with Jesus Christ and when you compare him with Jesus Christ Jesus comes out on top but here's the problem what we didn't realize is every time you're comparing Muhammad with Jesus Jesus certainly comes on top well what about the Muslims who are listening they're seeing this as hate speech yeah they're seeing this as islamophobic that's why they're yelling islamophobia phobia all the time because and they walk away from you why would they want to listen to you if you're sitting there bis Bisping their Prophet the man who they have so much reverence for and I realized I wasn't really making much Headway oh we were getting a few converts one here one here one here maybe one over here you know you could number the number of converts we were getting from this material not that many not at all what we were getting is a lot more anger more and more anger because if someone were to come up to you Allen and say look how irrelevant Jesus is he didn't marry he had no children he never knew anything about families he knew nothing about the most the mo you know the most foundational blueprint for living how why should we follow him more than that he never stood up to anybody he was a Wim he let people kill him all he could do is run run AR and and not even the disciples could defend him why would that be a model for today he never LED anybody he never LED any government uh he never no don't knew anything about politics he never was involved in these areas why is he a model for today I mean these are perfectly valid valid points what would you do as a Christian you probably want to just walk away from that because you're Bing and there's hard things to find about Jesus that really hurt you you know what I'm saying that really but Muhammad there's lots of things you can find that really start to cause you it's like a prick in your side it's like a thorn in your fresh and you don't want to deal with it so what do you do you don't understand Arabic therefore you don't understand what you're reading or you have no idea what you're talking about because you're not going to the right sources or you're looking only at one area of his life and you're not looking at the other area I mean this is something that David would and I had in our debate you know in our debate three years ago when he said you know we have to use these traditions we have to use them he says why would anybody write such terrible things about this man if he was such a model for them and I said no they're not terrible to them they're terrible to you because you're comparing him with Jesus but every Muslim that reach that does not come to the same conclusion you come to as Christians is terrible but as a Muslim the fact that he was strong the fact that he did destroy his enemies the fact that he was able to rule and look what he get left behind and look how he controlled the whole continent I mean a whole Peninsula and look see what he did to women he kept them in their place and made sure that they were real women I mean and look what he did to his enemies he destroyed his enemies that's hugely attractive to a lot of Muslims urah I want a man like that I want to be like that that's we seen so many Muslims like that that's hugely attractive even the things that David brought what about the fact that he was seduced seduced by Satan I said yes but look what happened afterwards every Prophet is seduced by Satan but they you don't read you didn't finish the story what about the fact that he wanted to commit suicide but he didn't did he yeah we all go through that there are many times when men of God want to commit suicide but he didn't he worked through it and he came out stronger the other R what about the time that he was froing at the mouth and he was induced by demons I said you don't even realize exactly for a Muslim that shows you that you're inspired that's what aah every kahin gets thrs at the mouth and has all these manifestations that shows you that you are actually talking from God we don't like that because we're you we're seeing what the Bible says about that but see you're looking at Muhammad through Christian eyes and Muslims don't they don't know the Bible they don't see that part of Muhammad though everything you're bringing up they're say what's your problem who wrong why wasn't Jesus like that in fact why do I want to meet why do I want to talk why do I want to follow a whip who never ever stood up to anybody except the money changers in the temple and even then he only whipped he only whipped the animals he didn't even whip the people why do I want follow so you can see I we were we're we're arguing against talk we don't realize our audience and we think our audience Is Us when they're not they don't know Jesus like we know Jesus and therefore for They Don't Really Care in fact they're also saying Jay you're making our point for us Muhammad's a much greater man to follow not Jesus that wimp never married didn't last very long and then let people kill him so ignorantly on the cross and even couldn't even defend himself from the cross not much of a prophet there so you can see why I realize goodness sake this stuff really we're just we're talking right past the Muslims that we're arguing with then I realized when I saw this class and I was in this class with Dr Haik just how powerful this material is because you're not talking about his character you're not Muhammad's character you're not talking about his misogyny you're not talking about all these what I call bad breath material you're not bringing Bad Brad breath bad breath into the discussion and remember when you have bad breath no one wants to talk to you right right walk away in the same way we're looking they come to us and say you're just bad breath who cares about you why should we listen to you you don't even understand what you're talking about and you're not making you're not very convincing plus you're not fun to be around because just look at the stuff you're doing you're you're looking at these you're not looking at really what he did and then you want to introduce me to this guy this guy who has just nothing attractive about him of the fact that he healed people can you see why can you see why they're it's not resonating so what saying is who cares whether or not he was misogynist who cares whether or not he killed everybody that stood in his way he didn't even exist he wasn't even there now suddenly how are you going to defend that now suddenly they got to pay attention yeah now said oh that is a problem if he didn't even exist if there is no place called Mecca see if if you start with Mecca Allen everything else Falls flat because you have to have Muhammad living in Mecca that Muhammad because there are many muhammads we kep we have have reference after reference to Muhammad in the 7th Century every one of them look and see where they lived they lived in Damascus they live were in Gaza they way over in staphon what is today bdad tell us about that name tell us tell us what that means Muhammad mhamad is just a title it's not a name it became a name in the 8th century and it was created as a name for the Muhammad of the South the southern Muhammad is the name itself but before that it was nothing more than a title and more than that it was also a title for Jesus Christ cu means the praised one or the the it could it's the praised one or it is the anointed one even the the lovely one it's there in song of Pon chapter 5:1 16 it's in the Old Testament the lovely one that altogether lovely mahmad mhmd it's the same word in Hebrew as it is in Arabic and we've been trying to say when people are saying see this is Muhammad yes they are correct it is Muhammad but it's not the Muhammad it's not the Muhammad it's the lovely one altogether lovely that's referring to Solomon Solomon was referred to as muhmed you can trace this name all the way back to the I think it to 1400 BC it has been used by the Phoenicians it's been used by the Hebrews it's been used by the Christians the Syriac Christians in the sixth Century use this name use this title sorry not a name this title to refer to Jesus Christ that's why on the Dome of the Rock when it's introduced by ABD Malik who's an anti-trinitarian Christian he's still a Christian he is re he says say not three for God is one he has no son it's attacking Jesus Divinity attacking the Trinity attacking his sunship and then it says Muhammed there's only one God but God and the praised one who is it referring to then this Jesus you just been talking about the one who's not Triune who's not Divine who doesn't have he's not the Son of God neither does he beget nor he's begotten that's right before it so it's all referring to this this praised one is nothing more than a messenger he's not these things he's this he's a messenger and only a messenger that's an Aryan argument that's what aryion was arguing in the fourth Century right AB mik is so why are we surprised it's the same thing that the Jehovah Witness is are arguing today it's been around since the 4th Century probably even before that so certainly it's it's no surprise it's there on the Dome of the Rock and it's there as the shahada even today but it was the praise one when it was first introduced how do we know that look at the coin by muia muia in 661 he keeps this coin up until 679 so for almost 20 years he has a coin of himself a copper coin and he's there as muah and he has a cross above his head and he's holding a cross so what does that say to you he's a Muslim Muslims have a problem not anybody who's wearing a cross and holding a cross has to be a Christian right because that's the symbol of Christianity on the back side of the coin is the letter m above the letter M is another cross a third cross and what's right below the m mahmad mhmd in Arabic this is the same mahmad that is in Hebrew mahmad that we see in song of Salon 516 exact same letters yeah why are we so surprised we a Christians who know Hebrew should know exactly what that is so who is this referring to the praised one the lovely one the anointed one and who is the praised one who is the anointed one Jesus that's why we is holding a cross it's Jesus who is the anointed one why then are we surprised it's on the Dome of the Rock or it's on the coins that he coins in six in 696 sorry 691 ABD mik coins in 691 and then really does it in 696 look at the coin in six I have it here it's actually I've just moved so we don't have it unpacked I have that coin in 696 and on it it's all these references against Jesus his divinity the Trinity it's all about about it's all about say not one for say not three for God is one he is no son he is not Beth nor does he begotten for the praised one then right after then the praised one is nothing more than the prophet and you associators see there's the associating mush mus Musik you associators what is the associator who is that referring that's us why because we are saying that this Jesus Is God we are the associated we will defeat you Associated it's right there on that coin everything is on that coin it's an attack against Jesus it's an attack against his Trinity it's attack against his divinity it's attack against us for equating him with God it and for being mushriks and that's why you've got to read the script just read what the evidence tells you the coins don't lie and that's why the G the Muhammad of the seventh century many times not always because other people we have Umar who's from uh from Iraq who comes over and destroys and takes over Jerusalem in 638 he refers himself as the uh the muhmmad the the praised what because people who go to battle they then call themselves the praise one it's a title they use to aize himself so other people were called praised ones that's true but look and see um I I mean someone like um Thomas the preser who talks about this muhmed he talks about it in six I want to say 636 he writes about him but he writes about him and he uses the Persian spelling mahmed with a t which means that this Muhammad is a Persian Muhammad he is a loid where are the lochman just look on a map and see where they lived they lived in what is today Iraq in what is today mosul and tiit so that Muhammad was way up there so there's another reference it's not Jesus this time it's actually a praise one it is the king of the lchm mits it is the roer of the lochet so in many cases it is used it is quite a normal title but by the Christians it was used to refer to Jesus Christ now now so when did it become a man that happens in the 8th century and we can see this by law following the inscriptions and specifically we can see it by looking at Jonah Damascus Jonah Damascus writes the um um of the heresies what's it called the heresy of the ishmaelites heresy of the ishmaelites thank you the heresy of the ishmaelites in 7:30 look at the date 7:30 this is well into the 8th Century who is Jon and Damascus he is absolutely important for this whole discussion because he's living right there in he's living right there in Damascus yeah he's living in the cifal courts he was there working under abik he was there working under almalik he was there when this was all being introduced he was privy to this happening and that's why he in 7:30 this praised one who's referring to Jesus on the Dome of the Rock by 7:30 within 40 years it's now call blessing into a man named mhmed now it's becoming a person named mahmed why because these Arabs who now are isites remember they're isites they're not Muslims yet isn't that interesting he doesn't call them Muslims and we're in 7:30 there's no reference to Muslims they are ishmaelites they are still in the line of Abraham like the Jews and the Christians but whereas the Jews and the Christians come through the line of Isaac they come through the line of ishel so they're ishmaelites they're Arabs they are they don't have a revelation like the Jews and the Christians have they don't have have a prophetic line like the Jews and the Christians have you need a prophetic line you need to have a revelation that's why ABD mik starts the revelations that's why all the earliest manuscripts all come after 705 after he dies and his son W is the one that really introduces these manuscripts look at the manuscripts we have today I have three of them right over here and they're all from 705 720 760 780 and 800 they're from the 8th and 9th century none of of them are from the seventh century proving that this was all done in the 8th century and that's why Jon of Damascus but see Jon of Damascus is so revealing read the heresy of the ishmaelites and what does he said this mahmmed who has these weird beliefs in four books notice he mentions four books the Quran is one book isn't it actually no 116 books right sorry 114 books it's 114 books but notice he Nam the books the book of the cow that's Surah 2 today the book of the women that's Surah four today the book of the table that's sah five today and the Book of the camel that's Sirah nothing there is no camel book that's right yeah and the Quran is not made up of four books it's made up of 114 of them why in the world are there only four in 7:30 camel ate it well you got the wrong one it was actually a goat that ate it that's right yeah can you see the problem here can you see just look at the evidence and you can see that even by the 8th Century the Quran had still not been put together but now this Muhammad is now been attributed as the author and what does he say that this Muhammad got it from a monk a Christian monk what Christian monk bahira is the name of the Christian monk that is well known so it looks like the Baha of the 8th Cent who is re who is introducing this to this Muhammad of the 8th Century he only had four books three of which are now incorporated into the Quran and they're three of the largest books in the Quran proving that even by the M early 8th Century the cran had still not been finalized this is exciting stuff so you can start to see the evolution of not only the name Muhammad but also the evolution of the book you need to have a prophet in the prophetic line from ishmail and you need to have a book because every Prophet has a book that's why Muhammad had to be chosen that's why the book had to be made but what do you do when you write need a book you have to write it quickly right how do you do that well you don't have material at hand so therefore you go and start borrowing from all different sources that's why the quran's all over the place it's ultaa no one one book does not follow the other there's no there's there's only one complete story in the entire Chron that's in chapter 12 you can see it's all over the place it is confusing to read it it has Old Testament characters who do things that none of the Old Testament characters did I don't recall Abraham going into Mecca I don't recall Abraham even being anywhere near Mecca not that far south that's Thousand Miles too far south in a city didn't even exist going into the cabba and taking a big Idol and destroying all the smaller Idols in chapter 21 verse 51 of the Quran it says so and then be thrown into a fiery pit no not Abraham he was not in a fiery pit that's Shadrach mesach and amedo they got the wrong guy doing the wrong thing at the wrong time time because you're borrowing and when you borrow you have to start putting stuff together as you can and that's why you don't sit there and look through and try to make sure that it makes sense that's why the Quran is so full of misconceptions so full of contradiction and is does not flow whatsoever it's what you would do whenever you create a new book you just borrow right left and center and hopefully nobody will notice that You' got the wrong story and the reason they've got the wrong story is because everything they borrowed were apocryphal these were sectarian writings because those are the only thing that were written in Arabic that they could use so you have all of these apocryphal accounts like the one of uh in chapter 5 verse 31 and 32 of jonath uh of uh Abel being killed by Cain Cain and Abel and the Raven showing Cain how to bury his brother that's not in the Bible but that comes from the the um the the T the tarum the tarum of Jonathan Ben uziah written in the second century it's an apocryphal account the story that I just told you about of Abraham going and destroying all the idols that comes from the mishna of rabah written in the second century almost word for word the exact same story the story of Solomon and sheba and the hoop Bird that's a great story in chapter 27: 17-44 but that comes from the second targum of Esther so these are all apocryphal accounts they have been written in the vernacular they had been written and they were not really written they were orally transmitted in Arabic and so they grab these stories and they put it into Arab but see then you got to say what Arabic are you talking about because the Arabic was not a language at that time that had any dots or vowels it only had four 16 consonantal uh consonants it had 16 letters and that's why they didn't know what they were reading and so by the time in the eth and n9th Century they had to start adding five dots and three vowels once you add the dots and vows everybody could put the dots and vows where they wanted to and by putting the dots and vows where they wanted to they came up with by by the 10th Century 700 different crr according to Dr nasar Dr nasar out of Harvard University Shar nasar by that time you can see there was a dilemma and that's why even mued in the n in the 10th century was then told was given authority to then choose seven of the 70 sorry 700 he chose the seven that we have today and he called them gads and every Muslim believes that those Gat writers every one of them was there listening to what Muhammad said look at their dates they begin in 836 go all the way up to 905 I'm sorry 736 go up to 8:05 so 8th and 9th century that is 100 to 200 years after Muhammad none of them knew Muhammad and they did live where Muhammad lived and so that's why you can see the kitat start to proliferate and that's why Al shatab in the 11 in the 12th century 1194 had to choose another 14 and then Al Jaz Al jazar sorry in the 15th century in 1429 had to choose another nine so seven plus 21 plus plus 14 meets 21 plus another nine gives 30 by the 15th century there were 30 of these Whittle down from 700 that was still not caused huge dilemma by 1924 they had a Whittle it down to one and that's the Huffs that we're using today so you can see all of this you just look at it you can just follow the evidence on the ground and it shows this is as man-made a religion as you can find let's let's go back to those manuscripts for just a moment if you don't mind you know I have somewhere here I have a copy of the John Ryland fragment which is a second century um credit card size fragment of John 18 um what what's the earliest um quranic manuscript that they have you mentioned some of those uh and I know it depends on who you ask but uh what's the uh I would this is a contentious and I'm I'm not going to take a stand on this but I would suggest that the Birmingham folios are probably the earliest however however be careful because now what Dr frano D Ro is saying that actually those two folos it's just two pages front and back actually belong in the petropolitan manuscript it belongs to the one he has there in the British Li I'm sorry in the bibl tech National because they're missing they are the same script that you'll find in the one that he has there in Paris so it could be that if that's the case then they are 8th Century nonetheless the carbon dating dates them from 568 to 645 568 that's two years before Muhammad was born if he lived 645 that's about uh that's about nine years uh well it's about 6:45 so we're talking about uh 13 years after he died if he lived now if that's the case it covers his lifespan so Muslims are going all the place this is proof we now have chronic material that's from his time without looking and asking have you Le have you read those two folios they're made up of three from three different suras in your Quran chapter 18 chapter 19 and chapter 20 there are 330 verses in those three chapters these are only made these are only 33 verses so it's only one tenth of those three folios and they're not all together notice they're spread over three different suras so it's obvious these predate the Quran what's more they are in Arabic that's true they don't have any dots and vowels that's true so they are manuscript they are Continental text but notice what they are they're nothing to do with Islam the chapter 18 vers material is all about the seven sleepers of Ephesus that's a story that was around since the sixth Century well known and it's still there today you can go and see it you can even I've been there I've been to where the cave is supposedly there real close to Ephesus my sister lives in Turkey so we went to visit it and it's been around since the fifth century sorry so that story is nothing new the next one in chapter 19 that's the story of J Jacobs of sarum that's been around since the second century and it's nothing to do with Islam it's a Christian sectarian writing it's an apocal Christian writing we would never it's never considered to be authoritative but it's not Islamic okay and then the fourth one the third one in chapter 20 is all about Moses the story of Moses lifted straight out of the Old Testament so there's nothing about Islam in any of these three stories of course they would have been there in the seventh century in the sixth Century in fact they were there in the second century so these would have been around in Arabic not pointed not dotted and not vowed that's why if you're going to create a book in the 8th Century you've got it pull from these very certain sources and they poured they pulled a little from the uh they pulled the story of f they took this folio and split it up into three different different suras why don't they just put it the way it was when it was written in the seventh century if those dates are correct I will those dates but if they are correct then those would be the earliest now the only of the other ones have been dated to 705 and later and that would be the saana manuscript would be the earliest of all the manuscripts that's 705 so that's early 8th Century that would make sense because that would have been the one that was written at about the time of of the W but it only it was only 90 93 verses so it's I mean sorry um it's only 23% of the Quran it's very small part of the Quran and parts of it are written at a later date so it's an amalgamation later on but the earliest part now what's interesting is it is a Poes so it has an under scpt below it and when you separate those two the unders script is made up of 63 verses but when you compare those 63 verses with the same verses above it there are 70 manuscript variants they they disagree with each other in 70 places proving that the lower script which is probably late 7th Century that would be the earliest chronic man we have that did not agree with the upper script which does not agree with the manuscript we have today right so you can see there's problem after problem after problem it looks like these dates fit perfectly with what um our good friend uh Dr Dr um Shoemaker is coming up his book creating the Quran if you read that book He suggests that the Quran started to be put together not in its complete form but started to be put together during the time of Abdul Malik and and uh alhaj which is around the beginning of the 8th Century let's say 700 to 705 is when it was starting to be put together these manuscripts support that I was just trying to think they didn't have access to an Arabic Bible until much later on too right until the nth Century because the Bible was not translated the earliest manuscript we have for the Arabic New Testament is the caticus codic caticus 121 or it may be 151 can't remember it's 151 or 121 that one is from I want to get this right 868 so that's late 9th century yeah and that's an Arabic and that's the first so if they didn't have the New Testament you you can see then why they had to borrow all these other extra biblical extra chronic I'm sorry extra revelatory material that were more many of them were just being written down in Continental form excellent well uh just one more question and I'll again I want to be respectful of your time here today we're kind of getting close to the end um you know uh just thinking too about you mentioned the the coins and U you know seems like every time a shovel goes into the ground in Israel they're they're digging up something to support the Bible and and they've really never found anything that is is problematic for us as Christians but U what is there anything outside of the coins as far as archaeology that that you could share with us that uh tell us a little bit about Islam yeah well actually this is the be I mean what you're bringing up is one of the most difficult things for Muslims to respond to and that that is if you have a city let's just start with Mecca okay if you have a city which is called Mecca where Adam and Eve were thrown down to well actually Eve was thrown down to Mecca Adam was thrown down to Sri Lanka he was 90 feet tall so he went boom boom boom boom boom and just walked his way up to Mecca to join his wife nonetheless that would be the earliest City in history am I correct there's no one earlier than Adam and Eve in order to have a city in order to have a settlement you have to have people if they are the first people that's the earliest settlement so it's the oldest establishment for humankind in history now we don't know the date for that I'm not going to put a date on that but let's just say it's thousands of tens of thousands of years old okay obviously it was also where Abraham lived according to chapter 21 in the Quran he's there in the cabba he's rebuilding the cabba with Ismail and he goes destroys all the idols in the cabba so in 1900 BC he should have been there so in 1900 BC there should been a Mecca by 1900 BC there should be well known because if Abraham knew it everybody knew it right Hagar and ishmail are running hegar's running back and forth there in the same story looking for water for her son and that's where safan mwa are just a hundred yards from the from the cabba so certainly by 1900 BC Mecca is well known and then we're told that it was a Center of Trade northsouth East and West it controlled all the trade according to trade rout Theory which means everybody anywhere should have known about this place it's probably one of the greatest cities in the history of mankind well then why can't we find one reference to it anywhere remember according to the Islamic Traditions up to 300 prophets were buried in Mecca all around the cabba and you're buried the same day you die and they buried them in a kneeling position so they could pray while they were while they were while they were dead now if that was the case they should still be there today their bones should still be there today look at all the construction that's going around there are cranes after cranes building all these 50 to 60 story buildings these skyscrapers all around the cabba the fourth highest skyscraper in the world is now there that clock tower if you're building Skys scrippers you've got to dig into the ground when you dig in the ground you come across artifacts and certainly you would come across these bodies they haven't found one bone anywhere there are no bones anywhere more than that they don't find anything wow Gibson asked this at a conference he was at for archaeologist in Dubai and he asked them where um what have you found and they said we the earliest thing we have been able to find is ruins of an ottoman Fort the Ottomans come to power in 1299 ad so this is after 1299 that they have the earliest art artifacts that they can find proof that it is obvious that there is nothing there for them to find for Mecca if Mecca is not there all like I said at the very beginning then you can't have Muhammad there now there's no way we can we can find Muhammad I'd love to be able to take up I mean we can't we I'd love to go to Medina and take off that lid of his of his burial and see if there's bones inside there right probably are but I'd love to be able to do DNA testing on that bone and see how old they are and I would suggest that they are probably no longer no more than 7 to 800 years old and they had nothing to do with a man named Muhammad who lived in the seventh century 1400 years ago so there's these are the things that Muslims won't let us do but we can look at other things we can look at the coins there are no coins that from that far south there's nothing there are no mints that far south all the coins are up in the north then we can look at the inscriptions and the inscriptions are also devastating because all the inscriptions these are rock inscriptions they don't incinerate they don't deteriorate and they're all up in the north they're all up in the down in the South nowhere in between not in the seventh century it's not to the e8th and 9th century that we start seen Rock inscriptions from the middle part called it was called Petra deserta for a reason I'm sorry Petra um desert um um let me get their names right I better get this right um AR Arabia we have Arabia petrea which is in the north Arabia deserta and Arabia Felix those are the three arabiasaudi Syria and Iraq Arabia deserta was that whole middle area all desert that's why there was no one there and then Arabia Felix was in the South what we call Yemen and Oman today and there was a lot of people down there because why because there was water in the South there's water and the no and there's nothing in between if you don't have water you're not going to have food no food no people no people no towns no towns no cities no cities no civilization no civilization no history it's as simple as that so when you ask me what do they have well just go and ask I mean Patricia cron asked us when she was living and she wrote read and wrote 15 languages she went back to all the documents from the second third fourth fifth sixth sth all the way up into the 8th Century she went to the she went way up to the North she went to the Assyrian Ian documents and she read them in Syriac and she couldn't find any reference to Mecca she went to the Roman docments no reference to Mecca she went to the Persian documents nothing to Mecca she went to the naban docments which were up in the north which are about 600 miles away no reference to Mecca she went to the South she went to the hadrat area to the hyar no reference to Mecca she went to every one of the civilizations surrounding Arabia couldn't find any reference to Mecca at all even across the Red Sea she went to the Nubians look at all the abian documents she could read all the documents couldn't find a reference to Mecca at all until 741 741 that's the 8th Century that's the mid eth century that's a hundred years after Muhammad was dead and that Mecca is referred to in southern turkey it's not the mecca of of today so you can see coming and going in every piece of evidence you cannot find Mecca now this is the statement I always make the more you scratch the more you find the more you find the more we shine the more we shine the more they whine oh how sublim why is it that whenever we scratch in the ground we only find things to support our mat in his place doing thing at that time in every case you cannot find one fault with the biblical material because he the right men in the right place doing the right things at the right time that's why biblical Archaeology is a grow is a growing is a growing field of study veritos International University has one of the best archaeological uh has one the best archaeological material what I I want to say um programs programs thank you programs anywhere in the world Veritas International University where I teach is primary known for its archaeology digs all over the Middle East why is it that they haven't found one thing that that contradicts the biblical text they haven't found one thing and yet we're find one thing after another and that's why so many people are coming on board we are able to shut down Islam just by using historical historical artifacts and historical texts and his what we call redactive criticism or Source criticism or textual criticism any of these criticisms that are asking the question you just asked shuts down the crown shuts down Mecca once you shut down Mecca you shut down both the crown in Muhammad that's why it's so important for us to learn this material and you know I I encountered a lot of Christians that you know they're just like just share the gospel and uh uh I I think again this is just why it's so important that we know this and we're able to present it to our Muslim friends and we we do this because we love them you know the more just to kind of say what you said a little differently you know the more I I study and the more I learn uh you know pursue apologetics the more I'm convinced that Christianity is true and I um you know I couldn't quit if I wanted to but at the same time I'm amazed at at some of the things that people will believe that contradict Christianity and you know it's it's so important for us as Christians as the church to to be able to have these meaningful conversations with our Muslim friends and present this material that you just shared with us to be able to talk about it and I I just believe God's going to use it and I'm grateful that he's using you and I appreciate you uh being with me here today and U sharing this information any closing thoughts that you might have yeah and I'll I'll end with this this is why in some ways this is probably our our our not only our best material but this material has to be used by Christians we need to use this more than anybody else uh why because every one of these questions that were throwing at Islam The ractic Source form uh textual criticism all these criticisms that we are throwing these are all neutral anybody can use them and certainly the atheists love them the humanists love them I know non non-muslims they all love this material and I keep on saying don't use it it's not for you the reason why I don't want them to use it I only want us to use it is that they don't have a response to this they have no answer they have no antidote and because of that they're just going to make Muslims as nist they're just gonna make them humanist I don't want them to become humanist I want to bring them home I want to bring home to Jesus Christ because we are the only ones who when we shut down Mecca we give them Jerusalem when we shut down the Quran we give them the Bible when we shut down Muhammad we give them Jesus Christ when we shut down we give them Yahweh we are the only ones that have the antidote we are the only ones that really have the response the answer we are the only ones that have what they already want and what so many of these Muslims they're halfway home they're just like us they want to know God they just got the wrong God they want to have a relationship with God that you can't get with Allah they want a scripture that is not only codified but can be supported and that fits the historical context of what it talks about not with the Quran only the Bible has it and they want to know who Jesus Christ is they've got Isa they've got the wrong Jesus we need to bring them home this is really our material this is really our time and this is why I want to get as many people excited as possible now everything that I'm that we've been doing the thing that I did at at at Calvary Chapel in September and then I did in a much more unpacked form longer form in in November that is now being written up we're writing it up we're just putting in our proposal we've been we've been uh we've been approached by a publishing house they want it published by this summer so that's going to be in written form all this is going to be written form hopefully within a few months so that people can read it and see the pictures and if has see the visual material rather than just hearing it on YouTube amen all right real quickly tell us about your YouTube channel and where people can find out more about you I know probably everyone watching knows all about you and where to find you but just in case maybe U maybe so I'm I'm on I'm on really two channels one of them is fander films p f n d r f i l Ms so it's it's the German spelling of fander and named after Dr Carl fander who is my hero PF n d r from the 1800s I do pretty much what he's doing uh I do both pmics and apologetics like he did pmics and apologetics so fander films is where I primarily have my material I also have the J show but that has not been going for about seven years we're going to resurrected this year so that will be interviews like what we're doing right here I'll be bringing people interview them and then I'm on S International C International what uh Alfa Alfa and I we work hand inand together and we go to a studio here in the United States and we put out sometimes 30 to 40 episodes at a time in a two-day period we do that twice a year so that's where all the newest material but I take those same videos and I put them up on my show and then I embellish them put more pictures and get more material on it than what we do in the studio because that's we're doing one after another I have much more time to unpack it much more when I'm here in my my own studio so fander films C International and the Jay Show excellent all right Jay well uh thank you again so much brother for taking the time to be me come on board anytime you need me God bless you and thanks for what you're doing all in it's so good to see you then good also to have participated with you in these different conferences and to see your heart you have such a beautiful heart and God going to use you mightily may this continue God bless you bless you Jay have a good good Afternoon brother all right just want to encourage everybody as we close here to go to Jay's Channel um like And subscribe to it share these videos and uh certainly would appreciate it if you would do that with mine as well thank you so [Music] much [Music]
