Why "Contemplative Prayer" is a dangerous new age mystical practice

pastor Chris thank you so much for being here today to explain a topic that I've had a lot of questions about and I keep seeing this phrase bantered about about contemplative prayer so I'm wondering if you could walk us through the basics of what it even means and what's involved and sounds like there's some spiritual dangers involved - well thank you very much for the invitation to come on the program yes it is something that is is you find it everywhere though a lot of people may not be familiar with all of the terminology that comes along with it it's like everything that I believe that when the devil does things and he tries to confuse people he'll wrap it up in idioms Christian idioms to make it seem somehow acceptable and so a lot of times you'll see that they will proponents of this well a lot of times go to the Book of Psalms and they have a selection of the Psalms especially because David will talk about meditating on the Word of God and being silent and and the idea of contemplating God's Word and so there's all the same wording but it's the methodology behind it that becomes very very destructive and that's really more the focus of what we should look at and not just because it's an English word but what's really going on behind the scenes it is kind of a system of methodologies in order to enlighten ourselves in the spiritual sense so whether it's prayer or meditation or study or silence or any of those kinds of words it's still nonetheless an experiential methodology that's supposed to produce some kind of an outcome it's very heavily dependent upon experience and feelings and emotion and yes it is an incredibly Eastern in its orientation so this was something that when I was saved I was confused about because as you said in Psalm one it says to meditate on the book of the law day and night and to me the word meditate was something out of the New Age was very Eastern kind of emptying your mind right going within noticing everything I'm thinking and feeling and and then in one of my classes the teacher pointed out the the Hebrew word for meditate is Haga which means to much her to speak out loud and it's the opposite of emptying your mind and that really helped me to see that this is about focusing on scripture not focusing on some random thought that could come in that could be dangerous correct and the problem is whenever you get into the Eastern methodologies God is not personal if there is a even idea of a deity it's one of a multitude of deities so since they're impersonal there's no way to directly community how other than how you may feel about it but when it comes to God he's our Father and he has directly communicated and wants us fully engaged oddly enough when you get into spiritual formation and whether it's the meditative practices or the prayer or whatever else I could read something for you from Richard foster about this very same thing if the piece is notable as a person as there is but he addresses or tries to address how people will look at this as being Eastern in its orientation and the gymnastics that he has to go through to justify it is breathtaking but I've always thought of it this way just to verify because I threw away my Richard foster book because it seemed like it was a lot of New Age in there oh which one did you have was it a celebration of discipline yes uh-huh yeah I was taking a class on spiritual disciplines and and so I had his book and I threw it away afterwards this one particular book I remember when I first read it I bought fell out of my chair but he he was talking about contemplative prayer and when you're going to enter into contemplative prayer this is my paraphrase because I don't have it right in front of me but he said you're going to be entering into spiritual things and not all spirits are friendly so he says it's always good to pray a prayer of protection before going into contemplative prayer and of course me being the one the way I am I you know want to say objection I have a question here show me in the scripture where God ever said you have to pray a protection prayer before you come to me and if you're sinning he God won't does never never says he's gonna protect you while you're sinning and yeah and this is really this is the mixing of the kind of spirituality that God has always just wanted nothing for his people to be involved with people have tried to do was diminish parts of the scripture so that they can incorporate what they want to into this spirituality and you know you would be a perfect person to talk to because in your New Age time when you were doing that you know that there was an emptying of yourself and really what what they tried to do and reading what Foster had to say about that very topic it's fascinating but I've always thought of it this way and many of us who've had children we know that there are those times when you really need to get their attention and if they're staring off into nowhere you're gonna grab them by the face and say look at me when I'm talking to you if there's this relationship that we had with the father he doesn't want us just kind of staring off blindly into his face when he wants face to face and you know I again it can become so experiential that we just kind of jettison the clear teaching of Scripture and and it there's such violence that's done to the text of the Bible in order to make these things operate coming from a new-age background you would understand what alpha alpha brainwave is supposed to be and that's typical contemplative then yet you know when you when you look at what the the just a dictionary would have to say about alpha brain that is not the way you want to go through life and that's not how you want to to engage in things let alone you're really ship with God had better be focused and you better be thinking on these things yeah the I mean Peter said we're supposed to be sober-minded and alpha would be akin to being kind of drunk all the time well here's something that that richard Foster says no first of all he deals with the spirituality that we've been discussing and how he approaches the whole eastern part of it and then what's very interesting is how he tries to justify it listen to this often there is a question to whether meditation can be spoken of as Christian is it not the exclusive property of Eastern religions whenever I speak to a group on meditation as classic Christian discipline there is the inevitable raising of the eyebrows quote I thought that Transcendental Meditation or he says TM was the group that dealt with meditation don't tell me that you're going to talk about reciting a mantra and yet breath prayers and centering prayers oftentimes is picking the word or even a phrase and repeating it over and over and over and over again Jesus told us not to repeat in prayer right and so they'll read right past those things but it is amazing you see the violence that he'll do to the text here in just a moment now of course he mentions these great minds of the past who dabbled in all kinds of mysticism and they're basically your middle age middle ages mainly Catholic mystics and so he goes through that list of those people and he says this then there are those who feel that the Christian idea of meditation is synonymous with a Content concept of meditation centered in Eastern religion in reality they stand worlds apart Eastern meditation is an attempt to empty the mind Christian meditation is an attempt to empty the mind in order to fill it the two ideas are radically different but the methodology to get to this meditative state is identical oh my goodness emptying the mind is dangerous though exactly and see again from his his book prayer finding the hearts true home he tells you to be careful when you go into that kind of meditative state because it's dangerous because there are other spirits that aren't friendly that's right not only not friendly for evil well precisely and then here's the Alpha thing but I wanted to make sure and then I'll read what the internet says about it he says perhaps the most common misconception of all is the view of meditation as a religious form of psychological manipulation it may have value in dropping our blood pressure or relieving tension it may even provide us meaningful insights by helping us to get in touch with our subconscious mind but the idea of actual contact and communion with the spiritual sphere of existence sounds unscientific and faithfully or faintly rather unreasonable if you feel that we live in a purely physical universe you will view meditation as a good way to obtain a constant alpha brain wave pattern so alpha is this this is the way I heard it described when you first wake up in the morning what's the first thing that you do perhaps you turn off your alarm clock and you stretch and at this point your brain is relaxed mm-hmm so while you're warming up your muscles your brain is producing alpha waves you're not asking your brain to to process a lot of information or solve big problems the waves simply indicate that you are in a state of wakeful you may also be able to increase your brain's production of alpha waves when you stop focusing or concentrating on a task and simply try to relax an unlined interestingly a 2009 study suggests that your brain may produce even more alpha waves in the posterior part of the brain when you meditate this is not a Christian site here yeah so here you find Richard foster kind of advocating for this idea of alpha hmm and that when he says that since God is on the other end of this the methods for how you get there is not important because you'll find him at the end and that's when you start to pour into yourself oh this is so New Age I can't status I can it is so so for someone who has the Holy Spirit within them I would imagine that they would be convicted at this point hearing this unless they're conscious is seared I I just I mean this is a hundred percent based on deception and it is still here's the thing that's really kind of interesting about it right now you have church models especially in the West and I know that this raises eyebrows when I say as I said it a lot of at the church where I pastored recently much of the way that we see Church done in the world around us we see it mainly from the western side of things so the big mega churches and the big lights in the big stage and the big production all that stuff works really great in the West but it doesn't work well and most of the rest of the world mm-hmm and so what we find is a consumer-driven kind of Christianity and so for a consumer type of Christianity that's not so dependent upon the Word of God it becomes much more dependent upon gimmick and and methodology so whether it's the hyper charismatic things that we see in the signs and wonders or if it's the kind of things that we're looking at here which is much more ancient in its origins it still depends primarily on the experience how did I feel what did it make me you know how did I process these things and what did I feel then what was the experience that I received from it what did I learn and what did I come to know never looking at what the Bible says about these matters but rather what was the experience and how did I feel and what did it make me do taking experience above Scripture I was the authority yes it reminds me of Bethel reading you know the infamous Bethel reading has these so-called healing rooms that people would go into and conduct contemplative prayer sure and and my initial sense what does anything I'm suspect you know suspect of anything Bethel does first off but then it's all about special revelation before that person from God that's extra biblical I mean this is there a definition of contemplative prayer or is it just kind of this loose conglomeration of listening for God within well there you go you've just you said it so succinctly that's how you can get people that will be wearing brown robes and humming to themselves in some monastery somewhere or the people at beth-el or at IHOP with Mike Bickle because let's face it the whole hyper charismatic movement is decades old Bethel's just become the new shiny object that everybody's watching yeah so it still becomes the experiential and really what's kind of funny if you think about it for the most part the the real old line denominations the very liturgical types of people especially within Catholicism and the old Orthodox beliefs and in a lot of Lutheran circles the older that they are they will hold on to a lot more of that middle age kind of mystical worship and and and that the whole liturgy kind of lends itself to that because it leans heavily on tradition and the people from the past regardless this isn't about who is doing what I think again before the program started you and I had had a brief conversation that the people who are the advocates of this will come and go and so and who they are is really almost secondary we want to be familiar with what it is that they teach and is there a biblical reason for it and so again when we come to the matter of Prayer anytime that we see prayer actually done we find that that prayer is incredibly active and it is directly fully aware eyes wide open it is the person coming before the father making petition the best place that we find for it is is John chapter 17 as Jesus prays right before his arrest and you'll see that he is fully and absolutely engaged between he and the father and so remember he was given the model they had asked him you know teach us to pray and when he gives them that that model for prayer again it requires a very active mind and if we want to use one of their words very present like be there don't be off somewhere else and don't check out mentally because you're coming before the creator of the universe who is very personal unlike the Eastern the impersonal gods or deities or spirits they don't really care to commune with people you're just usually there to try to keep out of trouble with them you'll stay off the radar but with the god of scripture he desires his children to come to him eyes wide open paying attention to the things taking place that's such a good point about being fully engaged and and focused on glorifying God and praising God and worshiping God I think that with contemplative prayer would be the opposite you'd be glorifying yourself you'd be all thinking about yourself sure well it is very much focused on the inner person but if I could once again and just reference what I what I saw from I actually the first time I opened this book it usually just frustrates people can't read it so I become kind of I don't want to read anymore but since you've had a copy of this book at one time you would know that the disciplines are part of a larger spirituality and that's why I mentioned spiritual formation because they use the spiritual disciplines it's a methodology and the prayer is just one aspect of it so we looked at that in the earlier part now there's a whole chapter on study and when he says that the intrinsic rules of study however they are themselves inadequate so he would look at people like myself who says when I come to the Bible I'm not terribly conservative about how it makes me feel because I don't want to read into the text because I don't want to have a preconceived idea about things I want to come to the scripture which was in place before I ever showed up and God used it to communicate truth to me whether it's historical truth whether it's doctrinal or theological truth there are you know different books have different topics Paul's writings were primarily to say okay Church I'm glad that you guys are cruising right along but you got some things that need some straightening out in the Gospels we get the message of Jesus walking among his creation if it's the Old Testament we'll have the poetry books but we'll have the historical books will have the doctrinal and the theological books the books of Moses those types of things so whatever it is that we're coming to we want to know the text that we're looking at but we don't want to always go how does it make me feel that's not why it's written it's not written how do I feel about it well I mean there's the conviction of the Holy Spirit with some of the passages and what would be the difference between the Holy Spirit convicting you versus this kind of touchy-feely contemplative prayer approach one is objective and the other one is subjective you know we want to be able to say how do I feel about it well if it calls me to repentance that's how I feel about it if I'm offended in some particular place I wouldn't know my offense if God didn't take the time to instruct me about that offense mm-hmm and so if I if I'm only going by how do I feel about it well that's subjective because that means sure you could have ten people read the same passage and you'll have eleven opinions so what good is that there's no objective standard at that point then God's Word becomes just an accessory and not his word that's the danger mm-hmm so when you hear him say listen to this this is a crazy talk the intrinsic rules of study however are themselves inadequate to read successive successfully we need the intrinsic aids of experience in other books and live discussion now this is all in the context that God's given us his word but without saying as much he's saying but God's Word is inadequate because it needs these other devices in order to make it understandable experience is the only way that we can interpret and relate to what we read experience has been understood and reflected upon and it informs and enlightens our study other books can include dictionaries or commentaries or other interpretive literature but more significant are the other books that proceed further on the issue that is being studied of course he doesn't give a lot of you know details on this what does he even I mean if you're talking about historical context you know I mean you could go to Josephus perhaps to help understand the culture but it sounds like he's reaching into maybe philosophy books or sure or just dangerous oh absolutely when you see what else he says maybe he'll he'll lead you through a whole contemplatively your your leaving your body and your looking back and oh yeah if you want I can read it for you but here's here's probably the most telling thing that he says second Timothy chapter three verses 16 and 17 note that the central purpose is not doctrinal purity what is wait it says all Scripture is god-breathed yes and it is profitable for what the very first thing is doctrine and then for reproof and correction and instruction and righteousness so he's he's completely doing I see Jesus with key Scripture and he's recommending nice to Jesus yeah I consulting who knows what books and your experiences and feelings precisely so here's the rest of his isn't it I mean if you could just say that the name of the genre of the book is a new-age book then he'd be honest but the trouble is as I've come out of the New Age to be so shocked that there's new-age teachers calling themselves Christian teachers and New Age books calling themselves Christian books that's where I get righteous anger because you know in the New Age it was very clear this is not a Christian teacher this is not a Christian book and so you've got those lines drawn but in in a lot of Christian circles like richard Foster and contemplative prayer people who are new Christians lukewarm Christians those who have not studied the Bible they're like lambs being led to slaughter here mm-hmm absolutely well here's what else he says on it I'll read it again because it is so eyebrow-raising when you say this second Timothy 3:16 and 17 note that the central purpose is not doctrinal purity though no doubt that is involved he says this but the inner transformation Wow you just have from verse 17 the man could be thoroughly equipped for every good work okay that's where he gets it so it's like let's skip over 16 to get the 17 I wonder how a translation of the Bible he's reading - is he reading the message or something or before the message when I turn it would have been something along those lines it says when we come to the scripture we can be changed but we don't just amass information wow so there's no renewing of the mind right then it's because it's not about trying to remember the scriptures remember Paul's whole thing if you come to it right before that he in verses 14 and 15 he's talking about that you've known these things in chapter 1 he talks about the people that he's learned them from and he says that the scriptures that you've known from your infancy they are able to make you wise to salvation and here's why because all Scripture is given by God and it is profitable it's useful for these things and it begins with doctrine Dada Scalia and that here's an interesting thing when it comes to that because again I've heard pastors say this doctrine is divisive so we don't spend a lot of time on doctrine I've heard him say it Paul uses that word Dada Scalia the Greek word Dada Scalia in fact you'll see in the Bible it is used let's see if memory serves I believe it is 21 times and twice it is used in Jesus's own words and he's talking about those people that would teach us doctrine the traditions of men the other nineteen times it's used by Paul and 15 of those 19 it's used to either Timothy or to Titus a pastor - a pastor about Dada Scalia that thing that you teach your doctrine but notice what Paul says in that passage he says it's profitable for doctrine and for reproof and correction that means if people are in need of understanding what is right and what is wrong absolutely yeah I mean this is Paul's last letter that he's writing in prison he's going to be executed he knows it and he's appealing to Timothy to keep teaching the gospel so as so especially for Richard foster to twist that book in those verses I mean that's just that's painful it is and unfortunately there are so many people in fact um I think that this might be very instructive for your viewers because again here's what I do realize I realized that pastors are incredibly influential in people's lives and they come to respect them there's a good friend of mine who's also a pastor out in Pasadena who said I never I never liked to quote anybody unless they're already dead because then they can contradict themselves yes I can really relate to that virgin it's just one of the funny things to me that you know you're not gonna have to worry about yourself but the idea that you will hear so many people quote the some of these names you probably you've heard or maybe your pastor has used these names but think of if you've heard of them over the pulpit augustine francis of assisi madame guillaume bernard of clairvaux Julian of Norwich brother Lawrence let's see who are some of the Thomas Merton and there were some other ones in here but sometimes you'll hear pastors that will quote people with some very odd spirituality and again I think it's very important who we quote because even if they could say something I'm sure if I go through that whole book I could find things that I would say well there's a sense I have no problems with but just because I can find a sentence doesn't mean that I ever want to quote this guy because then I give people the license to go grab anything that those people read because I've never cautioned them exactly that's like people who say that they're gonna play the to Bethel songs that might be scriptural and and it could lead people to the Bethel reading theology of canosa switch says that Jesus emptied his divinity when he came to earth which is heresy so so yeah I mean you could find probably two sentences and in Jehovah Witness book or Christian science book that are sound but don't do it right well because here's what we know again I really do that believe that the devil is a real person I believe that he has existed since God created him we knew him as Lucifer now we call him the devil or Satan I believe he's real and I believe that he's very good at incorporating things that the church should never be involved with and and wrapping them up so that they look useful and palatable and yet we should have nothing whatsoever to do with them in fact if I could just let me expand on that really quick if I could mm-hmm for the people that that really have a problem with what you're doing with the things that I've said in the past it's like you're just dividing the church and you're just you know you're just creating dissension and strife and this is not about unity you're doing things that are breaking the unity of you had that stuff said to you oh sure yeah I'm fighting the Calvinists dividing the body is the number 1 Thing Thing leveled against me and they don't even know what Calvinism means this is the frustrating thing we get that kind of thing levelled at us all the time rather than want to deal with the argument or what it is that we're saying that we have a concern for they want to make us the issue rather than our warning so here's my reply to that at all times when I read the book of Revelation and I read what Jesus said to the seven churches there are seven churches that are being addressed by the close of the first century so 60 years roughly after his resurrection five of the seven were in some state of pretty deep trouble spiritually a few of them were into full-blown apostasy so if the devil could infiltrate a church in 60 years to think he couldn't after 2000 you're kidding yourself it's ridiculous on its face to think that we shouldn't be concerned about infiltration in the church or else forget everything that Paul wrote yeah I was writing about correction so often yeah almost all of his letters so we're talking about the Judaizers or the ones coming in and saying from a false gospel or they were being prideful and they're saying follow me instead of follow Jesus I mean Jesus himself said that he was the first one to call out false teachers and sure and and they would name names too it wasn't like they were saying don't follow false teachers they were saying don't follow the Pharisees don't fall I can't remember all the Greek names of the false teachers that Paul talked about but yeah so what we're doing is is love it's what I wish that someone had done to me when people knew I was a Christian Scientist back when I was being raised in that religion whereas a New Ager I wish someone would have just sat down with me and so let's talk about Jesus and what he really said in the Bible right and so these videos were doing and the work you're doing is is really putting ourselves at risk to warn others as we've been told to do its righteous judgment yes and it's taking the scripture at face value and letting God be the one who directs what it is that we say in what we do again there's there's an Old Testament passage that works really well in this and it does have implication I believe for anybody that's in a place of doing any kind of educating or teaching or whatever else and it's found in Ezekiel 33 and it is a very simple passage that just simply says this to Ezekiel I'll just paraphrase it then it goes on for about the first 12 verses that deals with it but he says to Ezekiel if if there's a person that is in the place of being a watchman on the wall and he sees this encroaching danger of an incoming army and he doesn't say anything then the people that die are gonna have his their blood is gonna be on his hands right now you Ezekiel I've made you a watchman over the house of Israel and he turns it into a spiritual application so he says if you see their wickedness and you don't warn them as I've told you to warn them I'm gonna hold you accountable for their blood mm-hmm but if they refuse to hear you it's gonna be on them and he says now go tell them this turn from your wickedness because why should you die o house of Israel so he gives them the choice through Ezekiel and Ezekiel was that man who was supposed to tell them about the encroaching danger of their wickedness and I believe that it is the same thing in the church to be able to say the devil's really subtle he's played the game if we're talking about this particular topic that you and I are discussing right now it is to bring a meditative practice that is very Eastern very experiential and it doesn't have anything in any way to to check the genuineness of it because it's all based upon emotion and feeling and it's completely subjective yeah well that was that's what you're talking about is one of the reasons why people were attracted to the New Age isn't it is that kind of that high you get the experience the me centeredness of it all and and in just very much feelings and and such where a lot of people may have come out of spiritually dry churches or what they perceive to be spiritually drive churches and so they go to hyper charismatic churches they get involved with mystical forms of Christianity and and so let's can we talk about some of the dangers of this I mean we've touched on a little bit that this is the devil's counterfeit which throughout the Bible we see Devil's counterfeits can we take like a kind of a a case study of a person who gets involved in this what could potentially happen yeah here's one of the practices of this kind of spirituality is to take passages of the Bible have you ever heard the term lectio divina yes I was going to ask you about that a quick story when I was first Saved I was sent to a spiritual director which means like a spiritual a Christian life coach and she told me to use lectio Divina and contemplative prayer and the alarms went off for me the Holy Spirit just said danger danger and just I just I never went back yes like do you mean a divine word is it the same as contemplative prayer it's the same methodology it's the same kind of spirituality okay and that's a medieval monastic yeah nothing actually before that believe it or not Oh lectio divina yes but it all comes from the same spiritual root that really is kind of from the early Gnostics in the early church no this isn't even oh sure yeah if your if your readers want to go back and read it you can go look at a group called the Desert Fathers and the terminology that came out of that but I mean that's really early on that's in the first a couple of centuries first few centuries so this is the stuff that made it through the early Roman Catholic Catholic again Augustine and people like that these were the very experiential type you know mystics and that's why it really hit its stride in the Middle Ages that's why you find so many that people that are quoted are those people who had all kinds of alleged super natural kind of powers that's why I think you had the Beth L type C it really drawn to it's like really these people could levitate and teleport all this stuff it's just like wow that sounds more rated so experienced so cool yeah and it's it's pridefulness too it's that desire to be special sure but if you watch anybody and people can go do all they want to you can go on YouTube I don't I don't say do this to learn what it is and and to mimic it watch it and see what it is so that you noticed you're clear of it but collected I mean it would be pick a particular Bible verse and you know whatever you want two or three verses whatever you can remember and say it read it you know multiple times doesn't even matter how many times and just incorporate it into the the subconscious of your mind that you can repeat it it will all throughout the matter of the day and then at some point you kind of come back and say so what did it mean to me how did it affect me what do I believe of it and so you know I as a pastor if somebody came to me and said I really wanted to start doing this I would tell them why on earth would you ever want to do this because how you feel about it or whether you even understand it is a very big question so that's not Bible study that's reading and repetition that's supposed to how somehow assimilate that truth into your life but if it's not correct it's like mathematics you may be able to do some big long bit of arithmetic but if you start at your first one or two steps and you're wrong there I don't know how good your math is down the line your error at the beginning is corrupted at going forward a faulty foundation absolutely so what we want to be able to do is to take any particular passage that we read and we can find that it will have somewhere else in Scripture that's dealing with that same thing we can go to the Greek or the Hebrew for reading old or New Testament we can find out about tenses of verbs we can find out the meanings of words where else is that word that we might see in English it may be the same Greek word used somewhere else but it's a different English word what does it actually mean why is it necessary that I understand this what's the general context who was the writer who was the recipient what was the reason for the writing these are things that we're supposed to know and it's going to inform what we know about the passage more than just repeating it over and over and over again and never seeking out any further information other than how we feel about it mm-hmm exactly in feelings the Bible says again again the heart is deceitful and if we even look at our own lives I mean no matter how old or young you are you can look back and see them the mistakes that you've made by trusting your feelings and not doing research I know for myself I have I mean I've been forgiven I've repented but gosh I have some regrets about wasting time and hurting my children by making decisions only based on feelings and we don't want to do the same with our salvation we don't want to make decisions and and have a faulty theology because we're going to our feelings about Scripture instead of a solid commentary and I am really learning well and when the Bible says that we walk by faith and not by sight sight is just one of the senses you can say any of the senses that way we walk by faith not by feelings not by sight not by any of those things we walk because God has put these things in place Romans 10 would tell me that faith comes by hearing and hearing by what by the Word of God not by my experience not by someone's opinion not Brad by how it makes me feel but what God has breathed and what is what he is the author of and so I don't get stuck in trying to build an entire belief system based on one particular verse I haven't mentioned it yet gosh what is it it's got to be close to 10 maybe 15 years ago that a DVD came out called be still have you had a chance to see who was in it yeah Beth Moore was in it and that was one of the most notable people in it but there were a number of contemplatives that put that out and it's taken from Psalm 46:10 be still and know that I am God right but I used to be twisted in the New Age well it's just be done by Christians now so that's see right there there's the stillness there's the silence there's the solitude those are disciplines and they'll pointed that but a simple look at the text is God saying if I could paraphrase hey people who are running around like with your hair on fire thinking somehow that you can fix your problems stop it be still stand there and let me do what I do okay be still and know that I am God you're not it isn't about stillness it's not about methodology it's not about meditation it's about stop it mm-hmm yeah that's in the New Age we twisted that scripture to say that we were God be still and know that I am God we really twisted it beyond recognition and you're right you know it reminds me of this big cultural push which I was involved in and probably tragically promoted it when I was in the New Age to believe in yourself you know it's it's it's not about believing in God anymore it's about believing yourself trust your feelings follow your feelings Joseph Campbell follow your bliss and and so it's that me centered theology isn't it sure it is and look at Paul Paul would be probably the closest that we had to a theologian you know in the people in the first century look at what he says about all of his religious pedigree in the book of Philippians yes and he says hey you guys think you've got stuff to brag about let me give you my pedigree mm-hmm and so he does all that you know tribe of Benjamin Pharisee of Pharisees according to the laws blameless he goes through that whole litany of things he says but these things that were gain to me I can't lost why that I might gain Christ and be found in him not having my own righteousness I count those things as as just dung their garbage they are their refuse to me so his point was I can have all of my intellectual things I can have all of my pedigree or I can have Jesus and it's not some weird mystical weird pursuit it is a genuine vital day-to-day walk with him as he reveals himself through his work and so if people just understood that our ultimate authority comes from God's Word only and by the leading and the work of the Holy Spirit revealing this these words that are on a page because I mean it was probably the same with you as it was with me at one time the Bible was just literature and then there was that moment when the lights came on because the word became alive because of the agency of the Holy Spirit it went from being words on a page to words of life and it was the Word of God that the transforms and revolutionize it's a person's life that's right so you know you even think you can illustrate it this way the Word of God off the screen and then our own feelings I mean what do you want to listen to the one who made the universe in the New Age we would talk about co-creation with God but the book of Job really convicted me out of believing that because God is talking to Jobe and saying did you make the ocean did you make the clouds did you make lightning did you make the ocean did you make the land no we we didn't God God's the creator of us of everything and to listen to his words that he's gifted us through His mercy and grace and in Scripture versus listening to our feelings that change and are reactive and in accurate I mean there's just no contest what we want to listen to right and if we really if we really do understand this there is roughly about 1500 years worth of history in the writing of the scripture and how he used the people that he did through such different historical times and different events and all the rest of it and yet there's such a continuity and a consistency in the text and it does speak of a God who is intimately involved in his creation even more so when Jesus walks among us and so it's but there's there's this really cool passage that a lot of times gets overlooked and it's in that John 17 passage that I told you about or that I mentioned about him when he prays I think it's in verse 21 where Jesus speaking to the father says now I don't only pray for these the men who were there with him the disciples but I also pray for those who will come to know because of their testimony their witness that's you and me so when I when I stop to consider that the people who wrote what they wrote they were writing on their first-hand experience and witness of what Jesus had taught and as a result of that by extension the things that he had taught them they taught to us and that was expanded in the person of the Holy Spirit a lot of times be correction was needed in the church so why we would go outside of what's already there to try to pursue after something experiential and subjective is just that in and of itself should just proved how demonic that that belief system is mm-hmm speaking of demonic could someone open up kind of a portal to demonic oppression or are demonic harassment by using some of these methods the foster team seemed to think so did indeed you did yeah I got got a pray for that he analyzed it yeah sure because really what you are you're you're beginning to play games with the mind and changing the mind and the there's the the real danger of the spiritual matters but you know if you and I were to just try to really narrow it down I think we would just be about as much concerned about the spiritual damage that happens to people when the experience begins to trump the actual Word of God you're liable to to open it up to all kinds of spiritual things but I put a quote up here that I thought you'd be interested in because of where the spirituality leads where does it wind up and that becomes very very concerning to me have you heard the name Henri Nouwen is that name something Henri Nouwen is when you when you hear the names like Brendan Manning or Richard foster or Dallas Willard again Henri Nouwen would be one of those people there are just a number of these modern-day Thomas Merton is another one that you'll hear these are names of these these people that are adherents of this usually in some form Catholic fosters a Quaker but the the people that that are into this are really into very old mysticism so here's the question that I would want to ask do we want to dabble in these types of things and and then ask where does it all end I want to read something from Henri Nouwen because he would agree with foster he would agree with Merton he would agree with brother Lawrence or you know any of them Madame Gilot on any of the rest listen to this he wrote at the end of his life he went on a sabbatical by the way he went back east oddly enough and and got a chance to see what the Eastern mystics were like and he came back and wrote a book called a sabbatical journey and he said this today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God's house all human beings can walk through that door whether they know about Jesus or not today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God now he would be a textbook contemplative spiritual formation adherent and if his spirituality could lead him to universalism I want nothing to do with his spirituality it's dangerous so this is salvific then this could be someone's salvation at peril absolutely so that feels dangerous as a kid's sure because notice that their pursuit is never about understanding in detail the Word of God they mock that that's all you people trying to memorize scripture we want to have the experience of spiritual formation so the idea that most of these people when you talk to them talk to your garden-variety person that really is very much into this ask them about the plan of salvation how does a person become saved what does it take to qualify or disqualify a person from eternity or for eternity asking those very basic simple gospel questions and a lot of times they're going to look at you like a deer in the headlights interesting so they don't know the gospel or they don't believe in the gospel it's never emphasized so it's not something that becomes a thing that is concerning you again read through you could read through the entire celebration of disciplines you'll never hear the gospel presented and that's true and this makes me want to weep it's sickening but you know again I just have to ask myself the question when I look at the church today and the things that the church is really concerned with you just think and you don't understand the gospel at all right they don't because it's not articulated it's not it's not ones last time that you heard without it being screaming and yelling as you see sometimes of people being called to repentance and a reckoning and the the recognition that we are indeed we're sinners and we need to come before him and seek reconciliation we're saved we don't become unsaved all the time that's not at all what the case is but if we look at it in the in the Old Testament sense they were still the children of Israel they were still the call they were still the chose and they were still all of that but they were constantly making sacrifice that was enabling that that renewal of their fellowship with God because of their sin mm-hmm and there is still that same thing with the Christians we don't fall in and out of God's favor because of sin but sin needs to be addressed and break down that wall that's that sin separates us from God at least as far as fellowship but it's not salvation but that's never discussed in these circles no it's not well let's discuss it in this circle because here we're filming us in the midst of the covet 19 corona virus pandemic where tragically a lot of people probably will lose their lives and my concern is a lot of people might die without ever hearing the gospel and as you know very clearly from your life work Matthew 28 Jesus calls us to make disciples of all nations and this is an international show so I wondered if you would share the gospel with us please well thank you yes absolutely and you you actually quoted such an important part because again I will look at the church the modern day and say they're so busy trying to make converts they never even deal with the cycles if you want to know what what would be one of the best ways to destroy contemplative spirituality make disciples because then they would end up understanding what the Word of God teaches and how this is such a fraud and it's it's not being called to an experiential you know kind of a belief system that is detached from from an active mind so what's the gospel what does it simply mean look the easiest way for us to understand is that God is perfect when we look at what either he says in Peter or from Deuteronomy and a couple of the other Old Testament books you'll find it said very similar in Moses writings God says to the people I want you to be holy for I the Lord your God am holy that means perfect you and I would hear that no that's impossible that's where Paul picks up in the book of Galatians and says look here's what the law was I I have to agree with this I believe that the law was absolutely perfect but I'm not I'm the problem in this equation so what what we had in the beginning with Abraham was that God said I want you to do this I make this offer to you do you trust me and of course Abraham's reply was I trust you and it says that God saw his act of faith and saw it his righteousness and it was acceptable as far as God was concerned there was no law there was nothing that was written - how that happened with Moses God writes it down and says here's where you've been wrong so that we can't plead ignorance right so the law puts in place what was absolutely perfect and Paul would say this the law is perfect we're the problem but what the law does is it brings us to the person of Jesus so if we understand the law and no it's a very lengthy answer to your question but the law was its limitation was this we could come to the law and say what's this thing about sin and the law would say well it's this this this and this it's whenever you fail to do this it's sin whenever you do this and you should have that sin okay what do I do about it you got to make a sacrifice yeah but what's the permanent solution the law would say I can't help you with that you're gonna need to talk to him that brings us to Jesus and we say I've sinned and I have I've offended you a perfect and a holy God what do I do and it's that you acknowledge that sin you come to him and say you paid the perfect sacrifice price that I could never pay for myself I trust you and what you've done in the completed work of your death and your resurrection and the the the the atoning work that was done at the cross that the law never could do but he did and so it brings us to him and we say Here I am this broken sinner in need of your forgiveness at your restoration and he offers that freely to the person that asks oh man thank you so much for sharing the gospel with us so many people need to hear that for me I heard the gospel I didn't think I did but when I look back on my life I'd heard the gospel but I was insulated by New Age teachings that told me that I was not a sinner that I I mean it's tragic but that's what the New Age teaches that there's no such thing as sin except for negative thinking and and so how could I be a sinner I thought that if you called me a sinner that you were cussing at me or calling me a bad person which is the worst thing you can be called in the New Age is a bad person and so that's why I had mentioned earlier that Deuteronomy 18 10 through 12 I needed that conviction from this extrapolation of the first two Commandments to really understand that yep I'm a sinner and then when you look at the rest of the Ten Commandments that were still all under I mean it's easy to see that we've all dishonored our parents every one of us has told a lie or maybe in childhood we stole something or we've had a hateful thought jesus said that's akin to murder and we all deserve death we all deserve punishment we all deserve God's wrath which is real and there's two places we can go to heaven or hell there's no reincarnation and that's a belief that you know we could just have Groundhog Day other chances so yeah this is very real this is right now with the coronavirus this is where the rubber hits the road isn't it sure and you know there's an interesting thing and the people that are so caught up in it are really not seeing this - the believer there is a piece that that we have that the world just genuinely cannot understand and it's very simply this look I don't care how old you are I don't care if you live to be 120 okay that nobody seems to ever live that long anymore but if you manage to do that what benefit is it to you eternity is the issue so you know we have that peace of knowing that no matter what happens to me even if Corona comes to visit my home and it takes my life okay it's not as though I'd wind up standing before God and he would say well wait a minute you're not supposed to be here yet I wasn't expecting that's right oh my last breath is known to him mm-hmm and so as long as I have something here for four that he has me to do like this I mean what we're doing right here if he set this up and I'm sure that he did and I make my way through it it's because he wants me to make my way through it but I have no guarantee of another breath after that that's right I'm okay with that I'm fine with it actually because to be absent from the body is to be present before the Lord is Paul tells us mm-hmm oh man exactly so is there anything else about lectio Divina or contemplative prayer that we should have a heads up on I mean you've mentioned some names thank you Richard Rohr are you familiar with him would he be amongst those person Marcus Borg yeah there's there are so many people but they're all kind of singing the same tune I would just tell people if you see these these phrases spiritual formation spiritual disciplines contemplative spirituality contemplative prayer or words like lectio divina centering prayer breath prayer if churches reduce your walk with God to a methodology or something that you can just study in a book and you get a checklist of things that you need to do okay that's methodology that's not Scripture well the Bible will not put it in that way it's very important that we understand that thank you I mean that's exactly what we needed to hear is is some of the churches I think they may be people get bored they're in psychology it's called habituation where you you you don't even see your sofa in your living room anymore people who work in a doughnut Factory they don't smell the doughnuts anymore because it's familiar your brain Tunes out what's familiar and people maybe get bored in church they've heard the same Bible stories since childhood and they want something more you even hear that in them a hyper charismatic church as you say give me moral Lord give me more and there's that there's that lack of peace that you were talking about that lack of satiation that I've got everything I need yeah and really what what it comes down to is that they're looking for the next big sugar rush unfortunately experiential Christianity works in the same way whatever worked yesterday won't work tomorrow because it's like a drug because it works on the emotion and the hype and the sin the senses and the problem is sooner or later whatever was working last week's not working this week so it's got to be something crazier and crazier and that's why we see it moving into that direction give me something more something more potent if you will oh wow that sounds like a drug tolerance or something here it is it's probably brain brain drug tolerance sure you end up you end up having a resistance to it and then it becomes mundane interesting so the problem that you and I would look at what that is to say but the the Word of God is so far beyond the simple intellect and the experience and if what we end up doing by trying to make him and we and confine him to an experience we we rob god of who he is and if we don't make the scripture or the focus of why we do what we do if it's not the reason that we that we walk with him to have him reveal himself to us we will then depend upon the experience and sense that is subjective you you become the arbiter of whether or not it's right or wrong based on how you feel that is so incredibly dangerous I'll tell you one last thing I thought this was really interesting or however long you want to do this I had there is a this really interesting video that people have they wanted itto see it it was a question that was asked of Dallas Willard before he had passed and it was a a pastor who said that we have people that come into our church all the time and they give their lives to Christ or however he said it some just generalization and what he asks what would be your recommendation what should they do and his instant thing was to go to the disciplines silence and solitude and contemplate beauty and these just all these you know phrases and slogans and bumper sticker things about methodology and really when you get right down to the bottom of it it was about isolating themselves to consider all these things if we understand what the Bible says then the last place you want to send a new believer is into their own thoughts and their own understanding that's not making disciples that's that's sending somebody into the clutches of a devil who will feed them whatever they want and steer them in the wrong direction because there's no direction at that point so so true and you know I just have to say that I wrote maybe 75 books when I was in the New Age and probably 80% of them maybe 90 were the process you're talking about Pastor Chris where I would empty my mind and I would pray a prayer protection which doesn't work if you're sinning and I would just notice whatever thoughts came in my head and I would that's how I would create these heretical New Age books because I figured with that method that I could trust the thoughts that came in and then that's the the whole foundation of my New Age career was writing about the thoughts that came in my head and so it sounds exactly the same as contemplative prayer yeah because then anything that is quote true is dependent upon the person going through the exercises and the methodology to get to the desired location well that is really frightening stuff so frightening you guys this is nothing to mess with as Pastor Chris is saying this is this could be someone who's not saved yet this could keep them away from the gospel and salvation because they're not hearing the true gospel and they're not repenting this could lead to more false teachers people who think that because they think it it's true and this is just super super dangerous stuff so even if you're bored with church don't mess around with these newfangled seemingly exciting methods they're just not what the Bible points us to and if you if you're at a church where they are not reading the Bible if the Bible's not open in the pulpit and your pastor is not reading from the Bible that's a huge red flag isn't it Pastor Chris yeah it's as big of a red flag as it gets because at that point if you're not getting your input from the Word of God you're getting it from his opinion needs that's right boy that's how I was raised this Mary Baker Eddy's opinion oh please don't make the same mistake I did don't follow these false teachers follow Jesus in the Bible yes well I want to thank you for your time today and you've just been such a clear guide to us through the dangers of this minefield and we really appreciate this I hope you'll come back on again sometime and and share other parts of the wisdom that you've acquired over the years of being a pastor and your expository teaching a course is on your website we've got the website here below do check out his classes you guys he's he's come from an expository teaching background so you'll go through deep deep deep verse by verse in the Bible if you're like me that's exactly what you're craving and hungry for and and you'll find it on his website

Channel: Doreen Virtue

Views: 52,439

Rating: 4.593925 out of 5

Keywords: Alisa Childers, American Gospel Movie, Warren B. Smith, Justin Peters, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel Wretched, Fighting for the Faith, Chris Rosebrough, The Messed Up Church, Costi Hinn, Redeemer Bible Church, Paul Washer, Strange Fire Conference, Clouds without Water, NAR Heresy, ex new ager, new age to Jesus, Christian discernment, heresy hunter

Id: tszjdXVpCLI

Length: 61min 39sec (3699 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 22 2020