Why are Muslim Scholars MOVING THE GOALPOSTS?

[Music] well this is a fascinating month that's just gone by and we've heard claim after claim from Muslims concerning how well-preserved the Quran is and then we see that these goal posts are changing as long as I've known dr. Shelby Dalia I don't know dr. Joseph Gotti but I do know dr. Shephard Adi we've been friends and have debated since the 1990s over 20 years now and nowhere in the last 20 years of debates with him has dr. Shepherd Adi ever claimed that there were differences in the Quran or that the Quran was any different today than it has always been he is always maintained very clearly that the Quran is well preserved let me just put these two quotes up here yeah in front of you here he says very clearly what is important to notice is that throughout the ages of Muslim history the Muslims have not quarreled over what is the text the Quran because the text was known through memory work and through the written materials handed down right from the time of the Prophet mom and as I said the two copies that were made 1,400 years ago a one of witches in Tashkent Russia for example has been demonstrated by a flint long denver in his book Loulou aqua bond to be an an early copy from that time and we find no difference from that copy to what were reading today so you can see he's very clear there's no difference between the Quran then and the Quran he said before let's another place she says we have a copy of the Quran dating from 790 in the British Museum that's the mate'll goddess known as the ms2 165 folks he said that's 1300 years ago and we can compare that with what we're reading today and we find them to be exactly identical so certainly this is a debate he had with Tony Costa back in the earlier in the beginning of this century as far as ability is concerned the Koran is exactly the same as we have today let's see what the Quran says on that and there are three passages we need to go through and I've mentioned them many times before because they're very clear just start with chapter 10 Sura 10 Yunus verse 15 and when our clear verses are recited to them those who hope not for their meeting will with us say bring us a grant other than this or change it saying it is not for me to change it on my own accord I only follow that which is revealed to me verily I fear the torment of a great day if I were to or disobeyed my lord so it's very clear that nobody dare change the God the Word of God on fear of penalty on the day of the Lord that's 10:15 what about Allah what is he gonna do well let's look at chapter 15 verse 9 sura al hidden verse night verily we it is we who have sent down the dhikr which means the Quran is another word for the Quran and surely we will guard it and in parentheses the translators have but from corruption we will garter who's we well this is the plural name for God Allah so we God will guard it very clear they're gonna guard it and then a third one is which always goes right on after that is chapter 18 verses 27 this is a cuff and it says and recite what has been revealed to you of the book of your Lord none can change his words and none will find you find as a refuge other than none can change his words so it's very clear in the Quran in 10:15 that no one could change his word in chapter 15 verse 9 that God Allah guards his word from corruption and then in chapter 18 verse 27 no one dares change his word so it's the Quran itself that makes that claim not just shove it on he well let's see what others say and I want to just bring up gadi let's look at see what you said card he says so look at this clip here concerning what he says about the Quran Muslims are always happy and proud of the fact that their book is the only preserved book of of the scriptures of God that this book the Quran is not like the Old Testament or the New Testament it is not like the Gita's of the Hindus or the Puranas of the other religions this is a book that we know for a fact that has been preserved for the last 14th centuries ever since its revelation so Yasir Qadhi is very clear that unlike the old and new Testament he says this is the only book that is being preserved by God and that it has been preserved for a fact he says for the last fourteen generations ever since its revelation so he's going right back to Muhammad himself it's revelation that means since 632 it is exactly the same since 632 that's Joseph kotti very clear what he makes on that let's go and see what else yeah good friend yes sir God he says because that's not all he says let's continue on with this clip here so the caliphs remain standardized the copies of the Quran and therefore from his time up until our time there has never been two copies of the car that are different even in one letter or one word and this so here you have Gandhi I mean this is brilliant I'm just gonna quote rather than me quoting off the top of my head I'm just gonna put these clips up here so you can see the claims they're making so here he says that Earthman standardized the copies the ground and from his time until our time there hasn't been two copies of the Quran that are different even one letter or one word so he's saying not one letter or one word has changed from the time that it was created from the time that it was standardized at the time of movement so that's 652 so since 652 to now not even one letter not even one word let's see what else he says that's the Quran is the most did of all scriptures and in fact we as Muslims believe that God in His divine wisdom and plan has protected the Quran from any type of alteration from any type of deviation from any type of of miss of miss writing because the Quran tells us that God has revealed this Quran and he is going to protect it couldn't his six now it is the most protected of all scriptures he is saying Ickes I mean now he's really going out on a limb it is the most protected of all scriptures and there are no alterations no deviations no miss writing man why because Allah is gonna protect it going back to chapter 15 verse 9 that's why you won't see any alterations what else is easy all future Quran even up to our times conform letter for letter word for word with the Quranic most haps it was a drastic measure but it was a necessary measure and it is due to earth man it is due to the efforts of with my Nibin i found odie allahu ta'ala anhu that allah subhana wa ta'ala preserved the or on to this day there is no different version of the quran there is but one or on every cross all try he's not just saying one or two crops all crops even up to our time that means up today all the grants today conformed letter for letter there he goes again word for word with the month masaf to the state there is no different version of the quran there is but one quran yikes i mean that's that's a mouthful right there but he doesn't just say that let's see what else he says de hecho and this gives us some examples of the earliest must haves that were written and they are available to this day anybody who wants to compare and compare letter for letter and word for word they can do so the Quran indeed has been preserved from the time of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu aleyhi was seldom yep here he goes again letter for letter word for word since the time Muhammad this is not even since the time but with money he's putting out all the way back to 632 so you can see exactly the same not the only one what about chef batali what does something on you say let's go and see what your belly says even the academic scholars will maintain that the Quran has been preserved in a very accurate and closed manner and and more so than other scriptures and documents that we know from the ancient world looks like chef batali agrees with you Scotty that this Quran has been better preserved than any other scripture from the ancient world so he would agree with Yasir Qadhi it is the best preserved of all scripture so that's what they say however there is a problem take a look at it yes yes okati says just a little later in the same one that we did earlier some of our brothers who live in Algeria or Morocco or other North African countries they recite the Quran in a slightly different way not just a voice or not just a a speaking style but also changes in letters and words and haricot did you just say a few minutes earlier that there is not one letter there is not one word that has changed at any other Cron's and now he's saying that in North Africa actually they have one what of the derivation out of the water says he's referring to that does have letters and does have words different to the truth so where are you gonna believe where are they gonna go with this can you see the problem here I've got some difficulties because it looks like they're not quemic to the right narrative but let's see what is it that these two scholars are saying what are these changes what are these variants because now they're admitting that there are variants let's go back to chef batali and let's see what he says about these variants now some people were curious because they said you know you've always maintained that the Quran was preserved word for word over a period of more than 1,400 years and yet here you are in these videos saying that there are some variations within the wording of the Quran so how do you explain that dr. Shapiro's no this is fascinating because this is a show let the quran speak that is but put out by the daughter of Shelby naughty and this was just put up about a month a half ago during Ramadan and I've already talked about this earlier so I'm bringing it up again because here you have Sofia the daughter of Shelby Dottie asking him this question that you have always said that the Quran is preserved word for word but now you're saying that there are some variations it's fascinating to me because even in that I would have loved to been there and asked her a secondary question to that why is it you didn't tell us this before Shelby body dr. Adi all these years that I have engaged with you and I've known you since 1996 for goodness sakes that's 20 that's 24 years I've known you and I don't remember you ever admitting what you just submitted there on May 19th there in this video here to your daughter what's going on why is it now you're suddenly changing your narrative and moving back it has something come up is there something that you need that you're being bothered by is this because we possibly are the ones that have caused this problem by introducing these other currents as we did in 2016 could that be I would like to know shopping audio if you're watching this is this the reason why now some of your cherry changing your narrative are you seeing the narrative is starting to change now so now there are variants there are variants but hold out of it he's gonna qualify what he means by that let's go back and see what he says how do we explain this variance then Muslim scholars have explained this by saying that the Quran has been revealed by the Almighty God to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and that the Prophet peace be upon him taught his companions in a variety of recitals and that all of this is revealed by God so that's the end product that we have today in in the Quran that is widely circulated among Muslims that is often referred to in academic circles as in 1924 the Kyrene edition of the Quran this is one of those streams of the revelation so that's one thing is that argument well from a religious point of view to Muslims this has been what has been circulated among Muslims for a very long time this is the accepted narrative and we should be asking as you're asking now how convincing is that to non-muslims now non-muslims looking at this from an academic point of view they're not gonna start with the idea that God revealed this Quran God is protecting it God taught it to his prophet His Prophet then recited it to his companions and each companion goes off in a different direction with a different a slightly different recital all of these being approved by the divine authority they're going to look at this from a secular point of view and they're going to say that it looks like the Quran has been transmitted in the way that other books were transmitted with variations this is normal it happened with other sacred scriptures now that's a fascinating exchange that you see here and this is what I like about shuvit audio at least he's willing to admit that there are variants and he tries to explain it and he tries to go back and when he's asked this question how how are you can explain these variants and he talks about the fact that there are Muslim scholars but he doesn't mean who the Muslim scholar is I wish he would we're gonna do that in an upcoming video in fact probably the next video we want to know who this Muslim scholar is that he's referring to it's actually two scholars one is eben winds ahead and the other one is algae's Adi which I just caught he talked about in his June 8 interview with Muhammad hijab so he is talking about these scholars have decided on different variants and these variants are important because they do bring up different categories but notice um what Sophia assists after he talks about this she says how convincing is that argument oh oh dear I wish I wish I could have been there to VAS I'll continue that question that is not a very convincing and you can see it was a but look at the body language of bidadi he was kind of taken aback I don't think he was prepared for that question so what did he do well he tried to backpedal and he says okay listen it's accepted by Muslims this is understood we understand this this is that red that red line that yes if Connie had talked about in his interview we have a respect for the crown that we just don't ask certain questions of the Quran but he said but Shelby Nadia's agreeing with him on this that is where you don't go beyond now you just accept that these variants are their use accepted these different recitations that you is just accept that these different dialects are there because different people have different ways of saying the same thing that so he's talking about that's what you don't go beyond you just stay there and you accept and but he then says but non-muslims I'm not going to accept the classical account true we don't have a red line and that's why we're talking and that's why we're asking these questions so fascinating because then he went on to say and I'll just let me show you what he then went on to say now what they would say though in favor of the Quran is that despite that naturalistic explanation the Quran actually remains fairly intact the variations that we find between one recital and another are not such to change anything that Muslims believe and they're not such to affect Muslim practice in any significant way so now from being the same lot any letters change not any words change that it's exactly the same Quran that we have today as has always been from the time of Whitman even back to the time Muhammad the yes Akkad he is talking about shall be are you saying it remains fairly intact it's that's the word he uses fairly intact and as long as there's no change in beliefs and practices it's okay it's okay we can have these variants as long as no chance no chance that there are at any beliefs practices or doctrines that would creep in can you see the goal posts are changing now the moving they're moving the goal posts this is never what he said in the last 24 years that I known him this is only coming out now in May of 2020 May 19th in fact this is the first time I've heard him say this publicly fascinating how he's been forced to change the goalposts I hold on let's just continue on because there's some more I want to talk about what exactly changes RZ is referring to let's go and see what these changes aren't now fascinating this video I'm going to show you now is only just came up yesterday this is something he just did yesterday and you can see he's moving the goalposts day by day by day and he's trying to playing what these changes are that these changes really don't change any doctrine belief or practice but he wants to go it he says listen there are different ways that they're very so differences in these changes because he knows that there are 93 thousand changes that we've already seen ninety-three thousand not we I didn't do this but these are the team that Hutton has put together Hutton has put a team together of Arab speakers not her she didn't do this I didn't do this were not the Arab speakers that would have be qualified to do it and so these are Arab speakers who is who they are teachers of Arabic they know what they're looking at and they have already found ninety three thousand differences so he's trying to hedge his bets on this because he's not looked at all these ninety-three thousand I don't think he's looked at hardly any of them but this is what he wants us to look at and so he first of all notice what he says let's look at what he says what has happened here is that even though Massoud gave him a synonym with that one word which he couldn't pronounce and and is the Quranic word and and it there would be no harm if that man went back to his people and tell them that there is this tree in in hell which will be the food of the sinners and so the first category are the synonyms these are synonyms these are different ways of saying they're different things different words but they say the same thing okay so that's already one admission so now he realized that there are different words you know a saccade saccade he would not agree with that no letter no word has changed but now Schaben Adi is admitting there are different words but there's cinnamon cinnamon so they're very much the same thing and so there were some leeway especially in the early phases to let people recite as they could be comfortable with in order for the message to get across correctly and later on that the scholars would put their efforts in place when the time is right and necessary to make sure that they get the wording preserved correctly so let people read initially as as they are as they are comfortable and then we can do the work later on of compiling of checking of preserving copying and disseminating the Quran so this is how the history unfolded did I hear that right am I correct on this did he not just say that they are going to have leeway on how people wrote the crumb that they would recite it as they wanted to to begin with later on the scribes would get the word incorrectly later on and that later on there they were then compile it and they would check it preserve it copy it and disseminate the Quran Emma did he really did say that so really this is something that happens later on is this not human manipulation I thought this quran was already compiled I thought it was all reap reserved I thought it was complete I thought it already existed in heaven but what he's saying here is it looks like there's all kinds of human intervention let the people say it this way to let them write down every they wanted to and later on as he said the scribes are that compiler checketh preserved copy disseminated into the Quran that we now have today whew that's quite an admission that's one we don't have the copies exactly as left by even though Massoud of Ivankov and other companions of the Prophet peace be upon him you only have now reports about how they recited certain things and and these reports have to be taken with a grain of salt because as you know and the Quran was compiled very early memorized and passed on in writing from one generation to another the great caliphs made attempts to ensure that we have the Quran preserved with us not we don't have a text that is attested to say this is the recitation of hypno Masood close companion of the Prophet or oh baby cub another close companion of the Prophet peace be upon him we only have reports in the later sources saying that here by being carb read I first like this or even a Masood read the worst like this and they are at some variance with the Quran as we are reciting it today now well so now we have some other currents we have one by a bit Masood another by UBA even Cobb and then he says we don't have the originals we just have reports but you must take those reports with the greatest also don't trust the reports but we don't have the originals anyways however he did admit there did you not hear my heard him say that both it been dudes and uber even cops Tech's are at a variance with the Kron where is signing today so now we're talking about some other currents by the companions of prophet that are not like the Quran we have today which comes from Earth month so already now I'm seeing at least two other currents that we don't have today that we only have reports about them and they don't add the reports that we do have actually do not die well actually Arthur Jeffery dr. Arthur Jeffrey did a holes the study of this in the 1930s and he came up with I think around 15,000 differences between who by been Cobbs in eben Masoud and eben Moses Corral's different than what we have today so she'll be dahlias Elise admitting that but he's just saying of little variants no these are huge variants and these are yet other currents that are not the one that we have in our hand today and not from the one that booth one categorized as the master copy allowance from the Prophet peace be upon him to recite in this variety of ways which meant not only is there a dialectical difference but there is also it's not only a pronunciation all difference but it is also a difference in the wording and and the consonants as well now okay so now we have dialectical differences now we have wording differences and continental differences so they're starting to proliferate now quite a few differences that he's now coming across and mentioning now we also have reports in our classical sources for the Kenny telling us that this or that companion of the Prophet peace be upon him read a verse with a different word order but it has basically the same meaning so the seeing is mentioned last the action is mentioned before it means the same thing but now he's added in the order whatever you you do God sees it which is the same as God sees whatever you do but it's a different war order and again these are only reports that have come down to us we don't have his actual text no well now he's admitting that there are different word orders whoa so not only are there different words that are synonymous but now the words are different in different ways of saying it in fact he gives an example of changing an entire sentence one way or the other so now we're seeing that this is not the same Quran there's even different word orders that document no indicates that the Quran we know that aslan radiallahu on had according to Muslim traditional sources had issued a decree for people to scrape off whatever they have already written of the Quran and to copy instead this text that was man had produced by a committee of persons if you eggs I'd been Sabbats who wrote for the Prophet peace be upon him and other persons besides in a committee so after that work was double-checked and it was carefully put together that was said to be the copy that must be copied and preserved and circulated so if anyone had anything different they were to either scrape it off or remove it in some other way here he's looking at Pilate not the Hillary con it's what's-her-name Ozma he'll Holly's book that he puts up there and he puts it in looks and he says the bottom column says because he knows that there are 63 verses in the bottom layer from this what this book that was just published two years ago by us mahealani and it is not the same Quran at the bottom layer then is on the upper layer seventy difference so what he's trying to hedge his bet you can see he's backpedaling now because he knows this is now in public he cannot keep this under wraps this is all over the world everybody now knows that there are differences they're different different styles of writing there and so he's trying to come up with synonyms he's trying to come up with different word orders he's even talking about even mentions there were different currents different writings private currents that had to be scraped off because they did not agree with the the one that Whitman together so he's admitting that there were quite a few different currents if they had to scrape it off if they had to get rid of this layer that's proving to me different currents fascinating look how he's changing the gopis enormous leap and this is what's fascinating because if this is the case then let's see what else he says sometimes there is an additional particle which does not change the meaning sometimes there is an extra particle in this text which in a way shows that that what we have and what we holding and reading in our hands is the conservative text whereas you know sometimes what what scholars do when they look at varieties of ancient texts is that they see that somebody may add something for clarity so if everything is left a little unclear they know that that's the original one because somebody tends to add something for clarity rather than to take away something and make the text on clear so here we can see that sometimes something is added for clarity and it's slightly different from what we are reciting but most of it is they is the same hold on a minute additions to the text for clarity so people add to the Quran later on so they can understand it better is this a preserved text that guard got preserves for eternity that is exactly like the one that is booth one Commission or the one that was received by Muhammad which comes from those preserved tablets in heaven those eternally preserved tablets can somebody change the text can somebody actually do it create the additions to the text so that they can understand it better are you following are you seeing all these additions these synonyms that have been added the word order has been changed even different currents are additions to the text I mean what I'm hearing here is this is from human manipulation all the way through and it's just pulling away from that idea that God preserves his word if God can you preserve his work in one complete Quran that is exactly the same as that is in heaven exactly the same that that was given to Muhammad exactly the same that that was preserved by with my and remember as both Shiva Dali and - sacani say did that preserve that one that final one that one the core issue one that was there written by site design even Thabeet there in 652 that Quran then was sent to every major city and served to all five cities and we know that that's mcmechen inna we know that's Damascus the Neue less and that screw for those of the five cities that were sent to that's what they're all agree upon now we probably think of another four they could have been active but let's just go with those five so it's set to votes marches what was the reason to assent to those five cities so that it would be preserved so that the court HD dialect would be the dialect that would be the only dialect that could be used for all people everywhere at any time at any place that's the reason you have that with money Crescenta am I am I missing something here or have I not got a correct if you Muslims find that I'm missing something here correct me but I have always been told that I still been told that why would then booth Mun burn all the other ones why would he burn anything that disagree especially those that the the those people from Syria in Iraq were actually reciting differently remember they were citing it differently at the battle for a bazaar by Jean there is the battle for Azerbaijan and the people from Mecca Medina were coming in Eric making contact with people from Iraq and from Syria they're fighting alongside each other and they heard them reciting at a different way who died fur comes back to with money says we've got to preserve it in that with money sorry in the goraishi dialect we've got to bring it back to that original die like that which Muhammad himself said and so it had to be written in the code Asiatic and sent to all these different five cities if it was preserved that accurately then how can you have synonyms how can you have word orders that are different how can you have different grants how can you have additions for clarity how can you add all this to the Quran if it was only one Quran what sub inaudi is doing here is he's come he's you could see he realizes that we're coming across these crowns we're now reading them there's a lot of work being done on them and these crowns are proving to be quite different ninety-three thousand a thousand differences and those are not ones that he studied yet nor how the scholars got to these yet weird cartoons team is the only first one to come across him Wow man oh man I feel sorry for Shelby I hate to be in his shoes he's gonna have to put video after video after video after video I'm not gonna be doing the comparisons of the different Arabic because that's not my area of expertise now I'm gonna let people like Al Fadi and people who are expert like that the Arab speakers do that but it's fascinating to me what you're seeing here is a changing of the post you can see a changing of the narrative and they're moving further and further to the left further and further away from the original at the beginning no longer are they claiming one Corral that's very clear and even when his daughter says is that very convincing is that a very convincing argument and he's admitted it's not convincing to the Westerners but it is to the Muslims that's not gonna be good enough no it's not convincing to us we're not being fooled by this we have heard you safe for 24 years I've heard you say there is only one Quran and all the currents are exactly the same I've heard Yasir Qadhi say and that there if every word every letter is exactly the same now yes of khadi is not agreeing I'm sure with shibulata I'm sure lots of the Muslims their traditional are having a problem with shall bid on it because she'll be naughty has to say that he's living in the West he realizes that as more and more research as we come up with more and more of these derivations he's gonna have to come up with excuses and these are excuses that's exactly what he's doing he's having to do that because the evidence is now facing him he can no longer walk away from the evidence and that's gonna cause him a crisis of faith in time in time until then this is Jake [Music] you [Music]

Channel: PfanderFilms

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Length: 32min 34sec (1954 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 08 2020