Who is St Catherine of Siena? | The Catholic Saints Podcast

welcome to form live I'm Tim gray president of  the Augustine Institute and joining me today is   Dr Elizabeth Klein who's a professor of theology  at the August Institute and we wish you a happy   feast of St Catherine of Sienna so she's it's her  feast day today it's she's an amazing remarkable   Saint there's a lot to say about her she led a  remarkable life and of course she's one of the   few doctors of the church so one of the few women  who's a doctor of the church and we're going to   talk about what a doctor Church means but just a  few simple facts about St Katherine of Sienna you   know St Katherine of Sienna was a saint who was  born in the year 1347 she lived to be 33 years old   the same length of time as our Lord and she was  very devoted to Jesus she really saw herself as   uh a spouse to Jesus and of course she consecrated  herself to serving Jesus Christ and loving him and   she was the 24th child of 25 children so we should  why her mother's not canonized I don't know but   she probably should be uh amazing family of 25  kids her father was a middle class uh Merchant   who dyed wool and and uh and did fairly well  for himself and for his family even supporting   that many children and uh she lived in a time of a  lot of upheaval and Chaos politically in Italy at   that time she of course was from Sienna and she  also had a deal with a lot of corruption in the   church and a lot of upheaval in the church one of  the things that we'll talk about is that uh Pope   Gregory VI 11th who was the pope at the time he  didn't you know enjoy living in in Rome especially   for the summers in Rome but also because of  the political situation and the King of France   welcomed him to aanon France and it was you know  the wine tasted better there and the climate was   better and so the papacy kind of moved to Southern  France and you know P will play play a pivotal   role in bringing the pope back to Rome where he  belonged and we'll talk a little bit about that   too but uh a remarkable woman but you know doctor  of the church but also by the way before I forget   she was a nurse and she's considered a patron of  nurses and so in this time of the covid crisis   one of the beautiful things about St cathine of  Sienna is that as a young woman she went out and   volunteered and and helped out in the hospitals  and she helped out when people were were ill and   she was remarkable for her courage with the sick  that's another interesting thing so there's a lot   of connections with st cathine of Sienna in our  own time right now and I we'll make some of those   connections and talk about it but let's just start  with st cathine of Siena as a Doctor drct Klein   what what is the significance of a doctor of the  church you know a lot of people hear doctor of   the church and it's a great honorific title but  what does it mean right so to be a doctor of the   church you might think immediately our mind goes  to medical doctor uh but of course a doctor of   the church is more like a doctor of theology so  one with the doctorate and um you know that comes   from the Latin for being learned so it's someone  who teaches and uh Katherine of Sienna and trce of   Avala were only made doctors of the church more  recently um because traditionally doctor of the   church has been associated with someone who really  is doctrinal has a lot of writings and Katherine   does have a lot of beautiful writings but I  think something that the church sort of grew   into is to realize that doctors of the church  don't necessarily just teach Doctrine but they   also teach sort of mystical and spiritual theology  which is a little more in the category of Teresa   and and Katherine although of course there's a lot  of beautiful Doctrine and theology in Katherine's   writings as well she is a Mystic and now that  we defined doctor why we talk a little bit about   Mystic is people hear Mystic and it's mysterious  to them it doesn't there's a lot of questions what   what does it mean to be a Mystic and uh how have  we explain that yeah well I mean to be a Mystic   can mean a lot of different things I think there  are different approaches to mysticism and mystical   theology uh but I think one thing that really  characterizes characterizes Mystics is that they   write a lot about prayer and how to attain Union  with God in a spiritual sense what does it mean   to cultivate your interior life and what does the  interior life look like I think that's something   that both Katherine and teres of Avala who was  made a doctor at the same time they both write a   lot about that I like that idea that that they're  really focused on the interior life and lot you   can get a lot of great writings like St Thomas us  will talk about the virtues quite a bit and you   get the exterior life and not that he doesn't  talk about the interior life but the idea that   these Mystics like Theresa Avala and St Katherine  of Cena were focused on the interior life I was   you know struck reading uh C St Katherine's  dialogues uh her her major Treatise and she   talks about prayer as uh and and I think it's you  know paragraph or section 66 of the dialogues and   she talks about prayer and the need for courage to  be able to pray and when I read that it resonated   because I had read Teresa of Avala before and  Teresa of Avala really highlights that it takes   courage to pray and I I love that because I I  found it so uh striking and fresh in Teresa valal   but now I realized she stole it from this previous  doctor C you know but she she developed it and   made it her own for sure but I loved her idea that  to really persevere in prayer and to even take up   prayer it takes courage and you think about  courage to maybe for Katherine I think of her   having courage to go be a nurse and to take care  of patients who are ill and diseased that takes   courage but the idea that prayer takes courage  that's a really interesting striking idea yeah   I really think that those two things are actually  very related courage in prayer and then courage to   go be a nurse because one thing that really marks  Katherine of Sienna is she writes a lot about   trust in God and it takes a lot of courage to have  trust in God uh and that kind of trust manifesting   in Katherine's life in very extreme asceticism  which we might not think is obvious uh and some   of the things you read about that Katherine  did you know that she ate only the Eucharist   for many years that she lived as a as a Hermit  in her parents basement for a long time that   she didn't talk to anybody except in confession  that these things she did a little bit earlier on   in her life before her more public Ministry um  as a nurse it takes a lot of courage to say my   life is going to be fulfilled if I give up all  these other things and talk only to God my is   going to be fulfilling even if I don't get to eat  a steak uh and so I think it's very connected and   she had a lot of strength from that intimate time  she spent with Christ in her younger life where   she gave up a lot of other things to be with him  but that gave her this courage and gave her this   profound relationship that then when she went out  and worked with the poor she saw that really as an   extension of that that still is prayer she talks  a lot about how everything is prayer it's not that   you pray to fill up and then go out but if you  are able to orient it correctly serving the poor   is also a form of prayer one of the stories early  on in her life that strikes me is just humorous uh   is that her parents wanted her to get married and  when she was 16 they were really pushing for her   to um to get betrothed and and uh they wanted her  to marry and you know one of the things she did to   kind of foil her parents' attempt was she cut all  her hair and she was wearing a hat and her mother   comes in one evening and says you know what's  going going on and she pops off the hat and all   her hair is cut off and her mother's ah you know  all upset cuz she was supposed to be you know she   was encouraging her daughter to look pretty and  to go out and find a Suitor and and uh you know   that's a that's a she's a bold woman I mean that  takes a lot of Courage because it's just it's   saying I'm not going to trust in my good looks I'm  not I'm not going to do what everyone else expects   of me and even though it's a funny simple Story  I mean if you actually think about doing that   as a young woman that's it's scary to do that um  and I think that that story is really interesting   especially because I'm a scholar of the early  church and so there's a lot of women in the early   church who have a very similar story to Katherine  where their parents are trying to get them to   marry and so they cut off all their hair uh you  know and they refuse and some of them end up dying   for it and those stories sometimes seem kind of  like legendary and distant um but then when you   read Katherine's story and it's so similar and she  faced a lot of resistance from her own Catholic   Family then all of a sudden those earlier stories  start you start to see no that really could have   happened and that really did take a lot of courage  to resist societal expectations and the gospel is   still really really challenging a thousand years  later in Katherine's life when she's living in   a completely Christian and Catholic world it's  amazing that she had that strength to stand up   to her parents and of course you can see how  God's preparing her with these little trials   I mean it was a big trial for her as a teenage  girl girl but the bigger trial is that she's   going to have to stand up to the pope eventually  right she's going to have to say to the to the   leader of the church that she's very devoted to  you're doing the wrong thing you have to come   back to Rome and that that's really striking to  see how these little trials maybe lead up to some   of these bigger trials but let's go back to her  early life before we talk about her confronting   Pope Gregory VI 11th but her early life where she  discerns and she even says I think actually her   biographer was one of her spiritual dors and and  and father Raymond who is who ends up becoming the   head of the Dominican order and uh is a very well  educated and known for his character and Holiness   and he's her spiritual director in the latter  half of her life and and father Raymond talks in   her his biography that she had a kind of her early  mystical vision of Jesus when she was six or seven   and that she dedicated she wanted to consecrate  herself to serving Jesus and not be married and of   course she fulfills that and faithful that promise  when she's 16 and her parents wanted to marry and   then she kind of lives a very closed life you  mention you refer to this you know she kind of   hides out in her parents home doesn't go out much  but really dedicates herself to prayer and to the   stud of the faith and but she's influenced uh by  the Dominicans a great deal the Dominicans will   have a great influence and that's the church  that she and her family goes to is a Dominican   Church there's a major Dominican um prior there  that uh and school that is going to influence   her and she's going to she's going to go there  quite a bit and then she becomes really devoted   to the Eucharist and going to daily mass uh at  a key time and that that that Devotion to the   Eucharist will become a very powerful thing for  her and at one point in her dialogue she refers   to something about the Eucharist and it's this  really powerful moment where she uses this very   uh like Teresa Avala one of the things I I find  compelling about Teresa Avala is when she writes   she's down to earth using metaphors and just kind  of very grounded and very humble style and you   get that with Katherine too a bit uh Katherine  uses the style of the Eucharist and she's trying   to reflect on the Eucharist that she can receive  God in her and God who the whole universe can't   Encompass is within her and she's and she's in  this dialogue with God the father as you know   and and the father says to her you know look it's  it's it's it's like this how can how can God be in   you it's like how can it's it's more like the  fish is in the ocean but the ocean is also in   the fish because the fish takes in the water of  the ocean so the ocean is contained in the fish   but the fish is more properly said to be in the  ocean and I thought that was just a beautiful   meditation about God's presence in the soul and  how can this God uh who encompasses everything   be in in the soul and yet the soul is in God so  it's a beautiful that's really interesting teres   luia who's another doctor of the church he's a  woman has a very similar image of the ocean as   being in the ocean when you're receiving the Lord  so that's that's interesting I didn't know about   that uh that crossover yet that um image that that  she uses or just that that attempt to contemplate   the god of the universe how it can be within  her seems related to a lot of the the things   you'll find in Katherine's theology which often is  about trust absolute trust in God and one of these   things that God says to her when she's trying to  contemplate this is that I am and you are not uh   and that sort of resonates with her whole life and  how she tries to live it trying to live into the   truth that God is the source of all existence  and I'm not and God gives everything to me uh   and I think again that's related to these very  extreme acts of deprivation that she undertakes   because she feels that's a important part of  training her to understand that she needs to be   completely dependent on God and this is especially  an issue with food for her apparently uh then she   comes as I said to rely completely on on feeding  on the Eucharist um and that we might think that's   sort of a frivolous thing but that's exactly  what we do in Lent we try to deprive ourselves   and fast from specific kinds of food and part of  that reason is well when we're going to turn for   to something for Comfort instead of turning to  chocolate or burgers or beer or whatever we give   up for Lent we hopefully turn to God and so it's  part of training us through a physical act to rely   on God spiritually and I think Katherine really  embodies that that full trust and you find that   in her theology a lot and she speaks about that  in terms of Desire especially in the dialogues   the idea that in her dialogue with God and the  dialogue uh uh is really a dialogue of the Soul   which is Katherine but it's the idea of the soul  the human soul dialoguing with God and she talks   about how this idea of Desiring God and the more  we desire God the less you desire other things   and of course we'll see this taken up in a in an  extraordinary Way by another doctor of the church   and the doctor of prayer which is St John of the  Cross who talks a lot about desire and the idea   of giving up desire as you mentioned uh Dr Klein  is this idea of penance and renunciation is or as   St John of the Cross would call it the NADA in  Spanish that this nothing is not this idea that   Christians are just negative or down about the  world it's about creating space in one's heart   in one's Desiring for God and that if I like you  said if I desire food and I desire good music   and I desire entertainment to just constantly  satisfy me I'm that those are never going to do   that but what I'm doing is I'm filling myself  with things that are you know we could use the   analogy of junk food rather than filling myself  with God looking to God for consolation you know   I think of St Thomas aquinus uh says that man  cannot live without Joy right man cannot live   without Joy but without that Joy Of God then we  turn to carnal Pleasures to fill that void and   that's interesting because apparently Katherine's  dickn name when she was little was that she was   like the Joyful Joyful one um and that's s sort  of a Hallmark of what's to come I but I think   something that's interesting about this Dynamic  of fasting well recognizing that the things in the   world are good Katherine's not saying burgers are  evil uh is almost like Katherine's life is sort   of like lent and Easter in miniature she has this  period where she fasts and cultivates this desire   and longing for God and then she has this period  where she's able to take that inner strength and   go out into the world and then serve her neighbor  and th but those reserves of Love have come from   this time that she spent with God and so there's a  kind of lurgical pattern you might say to the way   that she lives her life and that's really common  to a lot of saints a lot of Saints have a period   where they go and live in a cave she doesn't  literally live in a cave even though there's a   story about her when she was a little girl that  she went out and lived in a cave for a day but   she says she lives in her parents' basement but  um St Benedict for example literally did live in   a cave for a period of time and then emerged  to found his Monastery or St Anthony of the   desert literally buried himself up in a cave for a  period of time and then emerged um you know ready   to provide spiritual fruit to others just like our  Lord who had the the silent years of 30 years of   Silence before his public Ministry or King David  who spends that those years in the wilderness on   the run from Saul so there's a beautiful biblical  pattern a pattern to the Life of Christ that she's   living that you highlight with just such a pattern  of so many the Saints well you know when she's 21   she's going to really uh enter into she doesn't  enter into an official comment she becomes a   tertiary which a lot of people might think well  a Dominican tertiary and so people refer to her   as a a lay person she later on towards the end  of her life founds a very strict Convent and you   know we don't know why but she there's maybe  there wasn't a conent that was strict enough   so she joins this or this third order Dominicans  and it's typically she kind of broke the mold for   them because this third order of Dominicans were  widows who dedicated themselves to the work of   God and doing acts of Charity helping out in the  hospitals and feeding the poor and things like   that and so she wants to do that she wants she's  compelled after this this quiet phase after this   period of of silence and withdrawal to go out and  do works of Charity so you could kind of see uh Dr   you were mentioning this deep welling up of love  in her interior life now overflows in this desire   to go do good deeds to go serve people in charity  so she goes to the hospital and she starts taking   care of and working as a nurse but she does so  as a Dominican tertiary and of course they had   never had somebody who was a young woman who was  a virgin dedicate themselves to this it was always   women who were later in life and who were widowed  and then would dedicate to the poor and so it   kind of kind is a bit of a controver iiv that she  joined that and again you see this this something   about Catherine she doesn't simply follow the mold  of what's ahead of her even when she joined this   this third order of Dominicans she didn't she she  saw what they did and she liked what the freedom   they had and the service of Charity they had and  she's like I'm going to do that and they're like   a lot of them are like no you can't do that  you're not married and widowed and she's like   that doesn't matter and I like that boldness  she had yeah and it's interesting there a kind   of tension because she has this boldness but that  boldness comes from as she it radical obedience to   Christ and so she really feels from an early age  that she's consecrated herself to the Lord that   the Lord has called her in a special way and that  gives her that obedience to the call of God that's   what gives her the courage to cut off her hair  in a shoe marriage that her parents want uh and   similarly similarly she has a vision of St Dominic  that makes her feel very called to the Dominicans   and so in that obedience to the call from God she  is able to sort of resist what we might call Norms   of her own t I like that you mentioned her vision  of St Dominic she was a real daughter of Dominic   the Dominicans have a love of learning and but  it's not just learning for learning's sake I mean   for St Dominic and the charism of the Dominicans  the idea is that the Dominicans would have the   Leisure to to study theology to reflect and pray  on the word of God and then they were to take the   fruits of their contemplation and share it with  others and Katherine is definitely in that mold   of St Dominic she wants to share that fruit so not  only is she working in the hospitals doing Deeds   of Charity but she's talking to people and she  simp she she's an attractive engaging young woman   and she quickly becomes a magnet for many people  she ends up having disciples both men and women   and she kind of becomes a spiritual director and  a mentor to a lot of people that she encounters   and I just want to highlight this idea of her  being a daughter of St Dominic the very opening   of her dialogue I wanted to just read this these  opening lines because she's going to talk about   something here that will be a theme throughout her  writings and that is if you could boil Catherine's   teaching and writing into two key themes it would  be Truth and Love and they're deeply related for   Katherine and U so here's what she says at the  beginning the prologue to the the dialogue she   says a soul Rises up with tremendous desire for  God's honor and the salvation of souls you can   almost see that that is what impels her to go out  to do these works of Charity and to be out in the   world and active after her deep contemplative time  she has for some time exercised herself in virtue   and has become accustomed to dwelling in the cell  of self- knowledge in order to know better God's   goodness toward her sense upon knowledge follows  love and love loving she seeks to pursue truth   and cloth clothe herself in it so I I love this  idea that um the knowledge leads to love and uh   and that what that that is going of what impels  her to go out into the world and she'll talk about   that here in in the dialogues that knowledge  leads to love and love you know leads to um   these works of Charity it really flows into her  life well yeah as a theologian Katherine is very   helpful because you know you think about mystical  Theology and traditional theology as being sort   of separate but Catherine was highly influenced  by St Dominic and highly influenced by Thomas   aquinus and Thomas aquinus you might think is  sort of the Paradigm of the stuffy Scholastic   who just writes all these books of course that's  not actually true of St Thomas either but I think   St Katherine really shows that forth because she's  very famous for this deep deep Love Of Christ of   these mystical experiences as being the bride  of Christ and yet at the same time that's very   much clothed and expressed in the language of the  Dominicans and of Scholastic theology one of the   Great Encounters she has and she mentions this in  the dialogues and as God is speaking to the soul   and and God the Father speaks and talks about the  two main ways the devil ens snares us and leads   us down the first way the devil does is by making  us kind of despairing or discouraged so the devil   tries to discourage us you're sinful you're not  worthy of God's love you shouldn't try to pray   who are you to be in God's presence to call upon  God to be a daughter of God a child of God and so   that's the first way God does that and and and  God the Father you know in this dialogue says   when the devil approached you that way you then  said you then fell upon uh my mercy and so what   Katherine's answer to the devil is yes but God is  so merciful and and that's and so the father says   you you as the devil tried to push you down  you you were exalted on my mercy and love and   then when the devil said yes but look how later  on came back to her and said look how virtuous   you are look how righteous you are you you you  have you have made the way you don't need to do   these self-examinations you don't need to go to  confession anymore you're you're a saint and then   Katherine's response to that was I'm a wretch I'm  no good St John the Baptist was purified in his   mother's womb and yet he did a life of penance  how much more should I and you know and so you   noted her life of penance but then she said then  then the father says then you lowered yourself   in humility and so the devil realized he couldn't  you know take you down in discouragement because   you would be exalted in my mercy and he couldn't  raise you up in Pride because you would be cast   down in humility it's so beautiful dialogue there  on prayer and it's in the uh in the dialogues it's   really a wonderful idea of how she dealt with the  Devil with in in that two-fold way what what what   strikes you the most about her encounter which  she know she's famous for kind of calling on the   Pope during this time of chaos and Corruption  and decadence and the papacy in the Vatican   and worldliness I think one thing that strikes  me about her letters of Correspondence whether   they're to the wife of a tailor or to the pope is  that they're really from a heart of Charity and   that the Dual love of God and neighbor really  drives everything that she writes about and so   part of what compels her to write to the pope and  to even enter into the corruption of the church   which you know if you're a Hermit may not look  all that great to even even go there you just   want to check out is because she has this deep  love for the body of Christ she feels that she's   the spouse of Christ and so to see the church  divided is so Grievous to her because she's so   close to the Heart of Jesus and so I think again  what allows her to speak in this way and be heard   is because it comes from a very authentic place of  having close relationship with Christ and I think   there's just a very basic lesson for us which is  if we don't have that relationship with Christ if   we don't haven't cultivated a kind of prayer life  if we don't see ourselves in that light it doesn't   matter how busy we are in the church and doesn't  matter how much work we do it's not going to come   from the right place and it's not going to have  the kind of success that Katherine had no I think   that's so well said that the her Effectiveness  came from her interior life and uh and that's   the what later on Dom Shar would talk about is  the the soul of the apostolate right that that's   the it's it's the interior life again that feeds  the exterior life life and the exterior life is   nothing as our Lord says in John 15 you know you  are the vine you I'm the vine you are the branches   and if the branches get separated from the vine  they can't bear life they they shrivel up and and   die one of the images she loves to use and I think  you're so correct in highlighting she saw herself   as the bride of Christ that was really Central to  her identity and her Zeal for love of Jesus and   everything she did came float out of that one  of the images that's really striking when you   read uh the dialogues uh is that she talks often  about the blood of Jesus the blood the blood and   it strikes me I'm used to hearing Baptist speak  about the blood of Jesus have you been washed in   the blood of Jesus and uh I I had a a dear priest  friend of mine who grew up in in Louisiana and in   New Orleans area and he he talked about being at  a gas station and a Baptist woman came up to and   said father have you been washed in the blood  of Jesus and he said Madam not only have I been   washed in the blood of Jesus but I drink it every  day she was like but really Catherine she speaks   about that I mean she speaks about taking the  Eucharist that she's washed in the she talks about   being washed in the blood of Jesus and receiving  the blood the body and blood of Jesus all the time   it's really a stark image throughout and it's a  it's a powerful image that um she uses for Jesus   this Blood yeah she she often in her letters will  say in you know that it's from the blood of Jesus   or in the name of the blood of Jesus or things  like this but also she has this striking image of   being clothed in the blood of Jesus uh she gives  her undertunic to a beggar and then has a vision   that Christ sort of gives her a garment made from  his the his side that was pierced on the cross uh   and that's a very there's a lot of in her mystical  imagery there's a lot of really striking um really   striking images but if we think about being  clothed in the blood of Jesus that also helps to   explain her life of penance and suffering that if  shares in the suffering of Christ that serves as   a kind of clothing protection robing beautifying  her whole life and that's not something I think   we're necessarily always comfortable with or  that we think about or talk about that much   and that's that's her mysticism right I mean  that's she has a deeply spiritual vision and   that Union with Christ which is so Central to  St Catherine you know St Katherine is a very   special Saint you know we I can't believe that  this time has gone by so fast uh Dr Klein that   I mean this is uh she's a remarkable person you  know you can uh take up her dialogues uh the the   dialogue with Divine Providence is a beautiful  spiritual writing of St Katherine her letters   you know if you if you're looking for something  for Spiritual reading you know she's somebody   you should think about taking up and of course  uh today let's pray to St Catherine especially   for those who are working in the health care  profession those who are nurses and doctors   you know what St Katherine of Santa was remarkable  in her courage that we've spoken about before but   her courage to face those who were ill she would  take and embrace lepers and those who were dying   of disease and now we have this great covid uh  pandemic and let's play Pray for health workers   you know that they may have the courage to care  for the sick like St Katherine let's pray to St   Katherine today uh that this plague may end you  know when she was born the year she was born the   Black Death the black plague hit and it came  probably from China and hit Italy hard and uh   today we have a plague that's come from China so  let's pray to St Katherine that this pandemic may   end and that those all of us but especially those  in taking care of the sick may have the courage   to love in spite of the risks right we want that  kind of Courage St Katherine can give it to us we   also want the courage to pray so I encourage you  if you've kind of have wimped out or you know not   been uh persevering in prayer ask St Katherine  today to give you the courage to pray that that   the blood of Christ may wash you in that prayer  time in that interior life and you can grow in   that Union that God wants you to have don't let  the devil deceive you don't let him discourage   you pray and draw closer to Christ thank you for  joining us and may the Lord bless and keep you God [Music] bless

Channel: Augustine Institute | The Catholic Faith Explained

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Keywords: eucharist, Catholic eucharist, transubstantiation, catholic sacrament, 7 sacraments, augustine institute, formed catholic, ignatius press, lighthouse catholic media, lighthouse talks, Dr. Tim Gray, Dr. Brant Pitre, Chris Stefanick, holy communion, catholic church, Catholic Faith, the augustine institute, catholic theology, catholic graduate school, christian theology

Id: rEccVRcM0Ek

Length: 29min 55sec (1795 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 15 2024