Who Governs the Church?

Fubini one of the interesting things about church government and the theological discussion about what we ought to do in terms of leading the church is that Baptists and Presbyterians have among all Protestants shared a very important agreement even though we have disagreements in the specifics about how we think a local church ought to be governed and that fundamental agreement that we share is that both Baptists and Presbyterians have historically believed that the Bible is to inform and direct the way that the church is governed at the local level there are many other Protestants who believe that though there may be some random principles that can be deducted from the Bible that it's perfectly appropriate to accept tradition to bring in pragmatic considerations even at the foundational and principal level on how you do church government and Baptists and Presbyterians have said no we believe that all of the principles for how the church is to be governed are provided for us by God in Scripture we recognize that there are hundreds and hundreds of decisions that we have to make according to the light of nature into our best judgment in submission to Scripture but the fundamental principles come from the Bible it's one of the reasons I appreciate appreciate mark Dever and 9 marks ministries you and I both benefited from Mark's work there it's one reason I encourage Presbyterians to read that material because mark takes Ackley's e ology very seriously it is a desire to be biblical so even as we talk about elders and congregational government I think is important for people to recognize that that we share a significant commonality that we wouldn't say with many of our anglican brethren who on the whole don't believe that the bible provides an authoritative form of church government yeah and that's a that's an important starting point because theologically what we are knowledge instead of Scripture exactly taught us told us enough about how to organize things in and again particulars in details may vary but if you don't have that in my opinion if you don't have that that principal agreement then you and I would be having a different conversation very much we just wouldn't be able to it's right we don't even have a plumb line that's what sort of saying yeah this is this is according to rule or this this isn't and so it becomes it becomes difficult to be fruitful with without that kind of principal agreement about the sufficiency of Scripture so if you were going to explain to someone based on the convictions that you have derived from Holy Scripture who is to lead the church elders or is the congregation to lead itself how would you talk about that well first I would say Christ Christ leads the church yes and he's the chief Shepherd yeah and and the way he administers his rule is by his words on him back to the word again in the church and he's put his word in the hands of qualified men and unqualified elders first 73 Titus one men who are able to teach and enable to use the scriptures to lead and Shepherd and and correct and encourage God's people by the word I love the way mark Lauterbach puts it he says an elder without a Bible as an elder without authority and that's very helpful it's good it's very helpful so it keeps us rooted in the authority that comes from Scripture it's good what white Presbyterians have have tried to emphasize that in history is that we have called the meetings of elders courts now a lot of people think that that sounds real formal and judicial and intimidating the point of that is actually to make it clear that we're not a legislature we have no authority whatsoever to make up rules for the people of God our only job is to administer the Kings Authority the Lord Jesus has made the rules our job is just to just like the judiciary has the job of interpreting the Congress the Constitution we have the job of interpreting God's Word in the leading of God's people and that that's really helpful because in some ways it's just reflective of Paul in first Corinthians is there there not one among you who can judge and and the real indictment of that is that should at least been true of the elders who were skilled in God's Word teaching God's people by his words I I would say elders elders lead the church but that probably brings us to an important distinction I know Presbyterians make between lead and rule yeah so talk about that a bit how Presbyterians think of that well I I think here's what I'd like to do I may answer another question all right I think that however you distinguish the teaching office and the ruling offices Church those things are considered together in the New Testament that's all elders rule this way and all elders teach period I mean the only competency qualification that Paul gives for elders of any type in 1st Timothy 3 is the ability to teach exist so it just as you said it's if we don't have the Word of God in our hand we have nothing to say we have no authority we have no word there's nothing that we have to lead with so I think that's important for us to realize I think for Presbyterians we believe that the congregation does have to consent to the rule of the elders in two ways one by being the confirming body of those qualifications those character qualifications and the teaching qualifications however that's done whether it's done through an election and a nomination process that precedes that there there's not just one way that can be done but somehow the congregation has to consent to the governed in that regard and and then the congregation is to follow or obey literally the language that's used in Hebrews 13 is to submit to those elders now even then you've got some you know you've got differences in how that plays out in a Presbyterian setting for instance it would be the elders that would be actually the ones engaged on the front lines of church discipline whereas my guess is at First Baptist Church and Greg came in the if church discipline is done the congregation is going to be involved in a very direct way I don't know how that would look in your setting what I would use same language you say I would say on the front line right discipline it's probably going to be the eldership at some point and the issue comes before one or more of the pastor's who at some point brings it to the eldership as a whole we may make some exhortations we may get involved as a whole or some group representing in a whole but we wouldn't be the final folks to actually make the decision about removal right about excommunication that we would propel it to the church yeah and that would that would be the functional difference our elders would be the final ones making that decision they would be the final ones making the decision to receive someone in the middle dismiss someone from membership or exercise discipline although there is a role that even Presbyterians believe the congregation plays in that in that then that is conveyed to the congregation that and that that would be one of the areas of difference in tell it to the church between a a pure congregational form of government and a Presbyterian form of government that's exactly right any things you want to argue back against me about or tell me other than the Bible about on that or almost convinced me to no I think you know tell to the church and we have conversations as we you know train elders and think through those things and sometimes people hear that and they say well that's it's a notification it's not involving the church in in the discipline to which I would say two things you know when when Paul writes to the Corinthians in first Corinthians 5 I addresses the church and says put this man out of your fellowship yeah you look at 2nd Corinthians where Paul is addressing whether it's the same or different sort of situation a punishment has been inflicted by the majority of body assembly right and and he instructs the assembly to now affirm their love for this repentant brother so it was seen to me that that their the congregation is exercising some responsibility over its membership who's in who's out Rhyno and how that's affirmed so I would see that as more than simply notification the elders have a cry in this way but that the congregation I used to please are taken and a Presbyterian would point out passages like Titus 1 and Hebrews 13:1 Paul strengthened Titus to appoint elders in every Church and even if that language and it may well mean to lay on hands and thus presume behind it a congregationally engaged process in the selection of those men it does seem to put a tremendous role of influence and authority on Titus and then the obey your leaders injunction in Hebrews 13 which seems to indicate a congregational defferent deference to the elders in that regard but that's what I mean it ends up being a point of emphasis and then you still have a lot of practical questions you have to address I think it's right it's a dance and I think we can we were talking now about the dance with regards the congregation yeah in its response to the leadership but but there's also even on the other side a dance that's happening at least practically for the leadership which is how we don't lord it over - yeah that's right no we're not eating this are leading by God's Word and and there is I think you would agree that I'm hearing this in your comments there is at least practically prudentially we need to consider the congregation let me respond those conversations happen in a Presbyterian setting as well because the other day the worst thing that happened not the worst thing always but sometimes what happens is the congregation votes with its feet you know or the Carnation up rises in ways and and sometimes that's an indication that we haven't been listening well we haven't been sort of working through the congregation well whatever the polity yeah we haven't been shepherding in that way and listening to the bleeding of the sheep well thanks for talking there presbyterian about these things look thanks for talking to a baptism

Channel: The Gospel Coalition

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Keywords: churches, church, Jesus, teaching, preacher, spirit, reformed, God, reformation, Christianity, biblical, bible, spiritual, the gospel coalition, Christian, Holy Spirit, faith, minister, pastors, preaching, ministry, evangelical, gospel, pastor, Christ, coalition

Id: 0NC9OytbYGc

Length: 9min 56sec (596 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 24 2014