When did Gandalf know Bilbo had The One Ring? | Tolkien Explained

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The new „does he know?“ meme

👍︎︎ 2 👤︎︎ u/ZoroStarlight 📅︎︎ Jan 29 2023 🗫︎ replies

What did the Wizard know and when did he know it?

👍︎︎ 1 👤︎︎ u/doegred 📅︎︎ Jan 31 2023 🗫︎ replies
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Today’s topic is one I get asked about fairly  often. While in so many other cases, we are given   insight into the wisdom of the wizard Gandalf,  this topic along with portrayals in adaptations   has led many to wonder if his brilliance faltered  when it came to one of the greatest threats. Today, on Nerd of the Rings, we cover  Gandalf’s knowledge of Bilbo’s ring. I feel like today’s topic has been  a big one among fans for some time,   and has been brought to the forefront ever since  the conclusion of The Hobbit trilogy nearly 10   years ago. I remember having to revisit the issue  of Gandalf’s knowledge of the ring all those years   ago because it can be easy to interpret Gandalf’s  awareness being greater than it truly is. We’re going to look at the situation with  the ring, and Gandalf’s knowledge of it   in as close to chronological order as I can  muster, in hopes this will bring into focus   how this played out and why Gandalf  came to the realization when he did. We know that long before Bilbo entered the story,  Gandalf would have had some knowledge of the Rings   of Power. Afterall, Cirdan the Shipwright gives  Gandalf his own ring - Narya, the ring of fire   so that he may use it in his many adventures to  come as he works against Sauron. Gandalf, being a   member of the White Council - which included the  greatest elves and wizards of Middle-earth, and   possessing a ring of power himself, knew a great  deal more about the rings than the typical elf. While we don’t know the exact timeline for  Gandalf learning of the creation of the rings,   we know that in 2850, Gandalf enters Dol Guldur,   discovering the Necromancer is indeed Sauron -  who is gathering all rings he can while seeking   for news about the One Ring and the Heir of  Isildur. Coincidentally, it’s during this   trip to Dol Guldur when Gandalf discover’s  King Thrain and receives the key to Erebor. 91 years later, Gandalf sends Bilbo and the  dwarves on the Quest of Erebor, in hopes   of solving the potential problem of Sauron  teaming up with the dragon Smaug. As we know,   it is during their time in the Misty Mountains  that Bilbo discovers the ring and he initially   leaves out any mention of the ring in recounting  his tale to the rest of the Company and Gandalf. While Gandalf would find Bilbo’s story  suspicious, Bilbo doesn’t reveal the   ring’s existence to the wizard within the  pages of the Hobbit. Only the dwarves are   with Bilbo when he reveals the ring in saving  them from the spiders of Mirkwood - by which   time Gandalf has gone to Dol Guldur with the  White Council to drive Sauron from his fortress. Eventually, Bilbo would reveal he had a magic  ring, though when he says he “won” the ring,   Gandalf does not believe him. As  Frodo later tells us, Gandalf pesters   Bilbo until he gets the true account of  Gollum and Bilbo’s Riddles in the Dark,   and his taking of the magic ring.  The earliest this could have happened   would’ve likely been sometime in the Spring  of 2942 TA - either when Gandalf and Bilbo   make their way back from their journey or  some other time Gandalf visits the Shire. Gandalf would of course check in on the hobbit  from time to time - for instance, we know that he   came with Balin in the fall of 2949 - seven years  after their adventure together. This is when Bilbo   learns of the new prosperity of the Kingdom of  Erebor and the restored mannish realm of Dale. Just four years later, in 2953 TA, the White  Council would hold their final meeting,   for the Tower of Barad-dur had risen again. Then for the last time the Council met; for now we  learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for   the One. We feared then that he had some news of  it that we knew nothing of. But Saruman said nay,   and repeated what he had said to us before:  that the One would never again be found in   Middle-earth. ‘“At the worst,” said he, “our  Enemy knows that we have it not, and that it still   is lost. But what was lost may yet be found, he  thinks. Fear not! His hope will cheat him. Have   I not earnestly studied this matter? Into  Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago,   while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River  to the Sea. There let it lie until the End.” ’ When Gandalf recounts this portion of the story  at the Council of Elrond, he blames himself,   saying he was lulled by the words of Saruman  the Wise. This is a very important point - one   of Saruman’s greatest powers is his voice.  We find in The Two Towers that when Saruman   focuses his power on a person or group of  people, he can sway their hearts, plant fears,   and sow lies as he pleases. This spell, so to  speak, could last as long as the speech itself or   it could take root within the person’s heart and  last forever. Indeed in The Two Towers chapter the   Voice of Saruman, we find that even those who  are forewarned of this danger find themselves   affected by his words. The way Gandalf describes  himself - “I was lulled by the words of Saruman   the Wise” - leaves open the possibility that  it was not merely Saruman giving ill counsel,   but actually working subtle magic  against those who saw him as a friend. And the fact that Saruman was still seen as a  complete ally at this time is crucially important   not only for the effectiveness of his lie, but  also their natural trust in his expertise. Saruman   had spent years in Minas Tirith during the time  period of 2500-2759 TA, studying in the archives.   Saruman was unquestionably the expert when it  came to the Rings of Power and specifically,   the one Isildur had carried for two years  before his death. If anyone remaining in the   late third age could speak with conviction  on the One Ring itself, it was Saruman. Now, over the coming years, Gandalf would  certainly notice that Bilbo did not appear   to age. While we as readers and viewers  know this to be a symptom of the one ring,   Gandalf provides additional reasoning  why he wasn’t initially suspicious it   could be the One. Looking at Bilbo’s  genealogy, we see that he comes from a   long-lived family - his maternal grandfather is  remembered as the Old Took, and lived to be 130. Even with Bilbo being from a well-preserved  family and Saruman’s convincing argument   that the ring was swept out to the Sea,  Gandalf had another reason to believe all   was well - perhaps the greatest reason  of all. What isn’t as commonly known,   and what is omitted from the films, is that  there were more than just the 19 Rings of   Power created in Eregion during the Second Age.  Before any of the 19 were made, the smiths under   Celebrimbor made the lesser rings. As Gandalf  later tells Frodo in the Fellowship of the Ring: ‘In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made,  magic rings as you call them, and they were,   of course, of various kinds: some more potent and  some less. The lesser rings were only essays in   the craft before it was full-grown, and to the  Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still   to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great  Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.” Gandalf essentially comes to the conclusion that  Bilbo has likely stumbled upon one of these lesser   rings. We don’t even know how many were made, and  they certainly weren’t thought highly of by the   elves. Gandalf also knew from his conversation  with Saruman at the final White Council that   the Nine and Seven rings had jewels on them -  the three were accounted for between Galadriel,   Elrond, and Gandalf himself. Only the  lesser rings and the One were unadorned   by any jewel. But Gandalf notes that Bilbo seems  unharmed and unchanged by the ring - and surely   the One Ring would have had a far worse  effect on Bilbo if he indeed possessed it. And now we come to the fateful evening in  Sept, 3001. Gandalf, once again in The Shire,   sees that Bilbo still has hardly aged in the  60 years since gaining the ring. This gives   Gandalf his first true warning that all is not  well. Bilbo has certainly passed beyond being   “well-preserved”. That night, Bilbo takes a  great amount of convincing to follow through   with leaving the ring for Frodo - going so  far as to imply Gandalf wants it for himself   and placing his hand on the hilt of his small  sword while calling the ring ‘his Precious.’ As Gandalf later recounts to Frodo: “He said  and did things then that filled me with a fear   that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew  at last that something dark and deadly was   at work. And I have spent most of the years  since then in finding out the truth of it.” And indeed, this would be the moment Gandalf  would launch into his investigation after   warning Frodo not to use the ring. Gandalf  would still periodically check in on Frodo to   see how the ring was or wasn’t affecting  him. Gandalf begins to notice there are   spies around the shire of many sorts -  even beasts and birds. At his request,   the Dunedain double their watch on The Shire,  and Gandalf finally confides in Aragorn. Aragorn   in turn counsels that they should hunt for  Gollum to find out what they could from him.   Aragorn proclaims it is fitting that Isildur’s  heir should labour to repair Isildur’s fault. Aragorn and Gandalf searched  at great length for Gollum,   but are not successful for a  long time. Nearing despair,   Gandalf remembered the words of Saruman at  a previous meeting of the White Council… Gandalf: “The ring itself might tell if it were  the One. The memory of words at the Council came   back to me: words of Saruman, half-heeded at  the time. I heard them now clearly in my heart.” ‘“The Nine, the Seven, and the Three,” he  said, “had each their proper gem. Not so   the One. It was round and unadorned,  as it were one of the lesser rings;   but its maker set marks upon it that the  skilled, maybe, could still see and read.” As Saruman had continued to say the ring was  swept out to sea, Gandalf decides to go to Minas   Tirith himself. Arriving in 3017 TA, Gandalf  discovers the Scroll of Isildur, which states… Already the writing upon it, which  at first was as clear as red flame,   fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It  is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion,   for they have no letters in Mordor for such  subtle work; but the language is unknown to   me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black  Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What   evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here  a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's  hand, which was black and yet burned like fire,   and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and  maybe were the gold made hot again,   the writing would be refreshed. But for  my part I will risk no hurt to this thing:   of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is  precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.  In early 3018, Gandalf makes his way to  Mirkwood, where Aragorn has taken the   captured Gollum after finding him at long last.  Gandalf interrogates the miserable creature,   though by now, he is merely confirming  what he already believes to be true - that   Gollum discovered the ring in the  very location where Isildur died. With a clear history of the One Ring, and a  fool-proof way to determine if Frodo’s ring   is The One, Gandalf returns to the Shire  in secret the night of April 12, 3018. The next morning, Gandalf inspects the ring,  using fire to reveal its strange markings… 'I cannot read the fiery letters,'  said Frodo in a quavering voice.  'No,' said Gandalf, 'but I can. The letters are  Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is   that of Mordor, which I will not utter here. But  this in the Common Tongue is what is said...:  One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,  One Ring to bring them all  and in the darkness bind them. It is only two lines of a  verse long known in Elven-lore: Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,  Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne  In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,  One Ring to bring them all  and in the darkness bind them  In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.' He paused, and then said slowly in a  deep voice: 'This is the Master-ring,   the One Ring to rule them all. This is  the One Ring that he lost many ages ago,   to the great weakening of his power. He  greatly desires it — but he must not get it.' Knowing beyond doubt that Frodo’s ring is the very  ring he has feared, he sends the halfling upon the   quest that would lead him first to Rivendell, then  onward to Mount Doom. However, there is one last   question to be answered. If this ring was indeed  the One Ring, why did it take so long for Bilbo   to show such symptoms? How could he have seemed  unharmed for so long with such an evil object? The answer lies in a dialogue between Frodo and   Gandalf shortly after the ring is  revealed, when Frodo says of Gollum: “What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that  vile creature, when he had a chance!’ ‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand.  Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without   need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be  sure that he took so little hurt from the evil,   and escaped in the end, because he began  his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’ In the end, it was Bilbo’s pity that would save  his own life, for the manner of receiving and   giving the One Ring is vital. Smeagol murdered  Deagol to claim the ring, and he lost it to Bilbo   in the caverns under the Misty Mountains. But  Bilbo began his ownership with an act of pity, and   in the end, though it was with encouragement of  his friend Gandalf, Bilbo indeed gave up the ring   of his own accord. If Gandalf had taken it from  him, it would have destroyed the poor halfling. Instead, the pity for Gollum by  both Bilbo and later Frodo and Sam,   would not only save themselves,  but all of Middle-earth. as always I want to say a huge thank you to my  patreon supporters who make this channel possible   Tom to bombadil19 listen me the Cinda Keller  brimbor the mighty MIM team weasel Rabbi Rob   Thomas Charles Leisure Toby mobs music CCDC red  team nerd sichman any timer pelkey sports cards   monkey the brown Christopher carbaugh Joe Tepper  Sky carcass slide belts Dane ragnarson salimerman   zetrock bertelberg Grand strategy nerd Graham  derekot the dark-haired one Wyland Michael Wu   Grant McGregor and Debbie if you enjoyed  the artwork in this video check out the   artists in the description and purchase prints  of their great work for yourself thanks so much   for watching and subscribing and we'll  see you next time on nerd of the Rings
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Channel: Nerd of the Rings
Views: 919,697
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Keywords: tolkien, lord of the rings, lotr, hobbit, the hobbit, nerd of the rings, silmarillion, did gandalf know, did gandalf know bilbo had the ring, did gandalf know bilbo had the one ring, the one ring, gandalf, what did gandalf know, when did gandalf know, when did gandalf realize, when did gandalf know bilbo had the ring, gandalf bilbo ring, gandalf frodo ring, rings of power, lesser rings, lesser rings of power, history of middle earth, gandalf the ring
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Length: 15min 34sec (934 seconds)
Published: Sat Jan 28 2023
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