When can Christians divorce & remarry? - Wayne Grudem

we are delighted to be joined by the man that invented systematic theology or at least that's how it seems a best-selling author and distinguished research professor of theology and biblical studies hello and welcome to exposit the word dr wayne greenham good to be with you david thank you good to be with you as well wayne wayne you're here today to talk about a different book that you have out but it would be a miss of me not to mention that you've just brought out the second edition of your amazingly popular systematic theology it's fair to say that you made the most of kovid lockdown last year [Laughter] i think the work was done before covert came out how long does it take to do a piece of work like that well the first version took about 10 years i wasn't working on it full time that was i was teaching full-time and working on it in spare time the revised version took about two years but a lot of the material the new material was material i had incorporated in lectures over 25 years as i'd been teaching through the first edition of the book systematic theology so um it was two years plus 25 years of yeah of extra preparation yeah just in case anybody listening hasn't heard of systematic theology before what is it and why is it so important well it's answering what the whole bible says about different topics what does the whole bible say about angels what does the whole bible say about the deity of christ what does the whole bible say about salvation and how people can come to know forgiveness of sins and personal fellowship with god what is god like uh is he what is his wrath what is his jealousy what is his mercy what is his omnipresence any questions that people have about god and who he is who he is and who he is what he has done for us how he relates to us those are the subjects that come under the general heading of systematic theology systematic means organized yeah well organized by topics yeah and if somebody already owns the first edition is it worth their while investing in getting the second edition oh yes of course [Laughter] well there are 295 pages it's 295 pages longer so the additional material there's um there are specific sections now that interact with contemporary roman catholic theology and the catechism of the catholic church and explaining where evangelical protestants would would differ with our catholic friends on some points of doctrine there is a section on protestant liberalism liberalism would be people in the academic or religious world who don't think the bible is the word of god but just human writings and i explained where liberalism and evangelicalism differ there's a section on mormonism and what perspective mormons have on different doctrinal positions and how that would differ from evangelicalism i have new um new material on open theism the idea that god doesn't know the future new material on the new perspective on paul as promulgated especially by ng wright who's a british scholar um more material on guidance by the holy spirit more material on the need for repentance in the christian life as opposed to what's called the free grace movement all the bible quotations in the whole book are changed from the revised standard version to the esv the english standard version so that uh and we've added we had a we had a hymn at the end of each chapter and i've added a contemporary worship song to the each to the end of each chapter along with the hymns which are retained yeah so um quite a few new things completely new chapter on creation and evolution am i right in thinking as well even though this book has got an extra 300 pages it's actually lighter it it i don't know if the british edition is lighter but the us edition is lighter how did i do that dinner paper i think okay yeah yeah amazing brilliant well you're here today to talk about that what the bible teaches us about divorce and remarriage when you were researching and writing this book how is the church faring on a scale of one to ten inaccurately teaching what the bible teaches us on these matters at the moment i don't have the information available to know how well the church around the world is doing on any one topic so i i'd best not say what i don't know my impression is that the churches that believe the bible to be the word of god and seek to follow it faithfully have held to a number of different positions on divorce but the most prominent one and most frequent one has been that which is found in the westminster confession of faith from 1646 1648 and that is that there that marriage is permanent it's lifelong between husband and wife with the exception of two situations in which divorce would be legitimate in god's sight and therefore should be allowed by the leaders of churches in those two situations would be the physical act of adultery and desertion by an unbeliever physical act of adultery according to matthew 19 6 and um desertion by an unbeliever because of first corinthians 7 15 if the unbeliever separates let it be so let him separate in such cases the believing brother or sister is not bound is not enslaved um so those are the two uh legitimate causes for uh seeking a divorce not the divorce is necessary or required but is permitted in such cases for a christian believer who's been against whom adultery has been committed or who has been abandoned by his or her spouse um david i don't know if i should go on now and say that within the last two years additional research into first corinthians 7 15 has led me to conclude that there could be another ground for divorce um and that would be other situations that damage a marriage similar to the extent that is damaged by desertion in 20 in 2018 i published a book called christian ethics and it's a it's similar to my systematic theology book but it deals with how to live the christian life and in it i held the view that was traditionally the majority of you among evangelical protestants since the reformation as there are two legitimate grounds for divorce adultery and desertion but in this uh since that 2018 publication of christian ethics i've changed my mind and concluded that there is additional ground for divorce that paul hinsat or teaches about speaks about in first corinthians 7 15 where he says if the unbeliever departs let him depart in such cases the believer leading brother or sister is not enslaved and the phrase in such cases entois toyotois in greek doesn't occur elsewhere in the bible but it does occur in literature outside the bible where it means in similar cases but not exactly the same cases so um the jewish author philo just excuse me a minute david yeah to speak filo the jewish author who lived 30 bc to 45 a.d he comments on the tenth plague on egypt when the egyptians woke up and discovered that their firstborn sons were all dead because of the last plague that god brought on the egyptians and philo says as so often happens in such cases they thought their present condition was but the beginning of greater evils and they were filled with fear of the destruction of those who still lived now what does pathalo mean as so often happens in such cases well how could he say as so often happens when the firstborn sons are dead in the whole country that had never happened before he says it so often happens in such cases he must mean in cases similarly shocking or similarly troubling which means that it isn't limited that the in such cases end towards toyotoys is not limited to the specific example of first-born sons dying it must be broadly more broadly expanded to want to be understood to refer to general situations of sudden tragedy so now there are other cases like that i'll give you one more uh lysius a greek orator in writing around 400 bc said when farminicus had to pay a fine to the treasury my father did not bring him his contribution of money it is in such cases that we see the best proof of a man's friends now is it only referring to when someone has to pay a fine to the treasury no i think it's when someone has a sudden need of money he says in such cases you find out who your friends really are well i've found a number of those examples with that greek phrase entoys toyutoys applied to a broader category than the specific example name and we bring that back to first corinthians 7 15 and we find that paul says if the unbeliever deserts if the unbeliever departs let him depart in such cases the believing brother or sister is not enslaved in such cases i think must therefore refer to cases that similarly damage a marriage similarly to desertion and one that some of the puritan authors recognize and some modern church leaders have recognized is severe abuse where the abused spouse usually the wife but sometimes the husband has to physically flee the home yeah to protect herself or himself and um that would damage the marriage as much as desertion would but the the the abusing partner has caused the desertion rather than actually deserted himself yeah um and it seems to me therefore that pastors and elder boards and churches when consulted about the advisability or moral legitimacy of seeking a divorce have to evaluate each case on its own merits but there are cases which would be damaging to a marriage similarly to the damage exertion would cause and i think that would allow for additional reasons for divorce yeah repeated uh uh incurable from a human standpoint um addiction to drugs or gambling or pornography addiction damaging a marriage severely might be considered to fall in such categories yeah and so with caution uh to seek the preservation of the marriage if possible i would be willing to counsel people to be willing to seek a divorce when a marriage has been so severely damaged as that and what does the bible have to say about remarriage well if a divorce is legitimate in god's sight then the divorced person is single not married so if say um harry and sally to use two common words names if uh harry commits adultery and sally gets a divorce from him because of his adultery unfaithfulness sally is single she's free to marry be married again because she's not married to him any longer in god's eyes and in the eyes of the civil society she is no longer married she's divorced now in the first century well the the jewish mishna which was recorded later in 2nd century but reflects the earlier oral tradition it says in the mishnah the essential element in a divorce certificate is this you are free to be married to any man so divorce in jewish culture in roman and greek culture in the first century always assumed the right to marry someone else yeah yeah um david i i should also say though i've i've heard statistics that people claim the divorce rate among believing christians is as high as among non-believers yeah and that is just not so there's a book that i i have noted in my ethics textbook by um shanti s-h-a-u-n-t-i it's an unusual name feldhan f as in frank e-l-g-h-a-h-n shanti feldhan the good news about marriage and after extensive research she says now this this is statistics for the united states but i expect for the uk would be similar um 72 percent of people who have ever been married are still married to their first spouse 72 percent that leaves 28 who are not married to their first spouse but that includes all people who have whose spouse has died yeah so um probably at least 80 of people who have ever been married are still married to their first spouse and then she says weekly church attendance alone lowers the divorce rate between 25 and 50 percent and uh the median number of those who are say who say they are in happy marriages is 90 so um but and then my personal experience i've margaret and i have lived in six different states in the united states in two different countries the uk and the us we've been active members of nine different churches and i've taught for 40 years in three different educational institutions and we've known many many hundreds and hundreds of couples and the divorce rate is nowhere near fifty percent i would say it's maybe three or five percent yeah max so those statistics just didn't ring true to me they didn't seem valid in my own experience and i think it is an encouragement that the church continues to uphold the importance of preserving marriage and the belief that marriage is intended by god to be a lifelong institution yeah yeah how do you respond to the statement that the old testament contradicts the new testament on the grounds of divorce well it doesn't um the old testament talks about in deuteronomy 24 if a man divorces his wife and she marries someone else and then he dies or divorces her she can't go back to her first husband i'm not sure that that applies today because we're not under the mosaic covenant that was laws given under moses they're given to us now to be observed and gain wisdom from but not absolutely directly binding on us the new the old testament doesn't specify the legitimate grounds for divorce adultery was of course punished by by death in the old covenant but those punishments are not um intended by god to be applied to us directly today uh without consideration of the change in the covenants that came about with jesus death and resurrection yeah what's your advice for someone that may have married within a same-sex relationship and has since become a christian and wants to divorce because of their convictions in a same-sex relationship yes well i think the same-sex relationship is contrary to the moral standards of the bible and the person should seek a legal divorce as quickly as possible yeah yeah what some of the other views you give on the topics of divorce and remarriage well there is i have some friends uh um who say that there should be no remarriage ever even if divorce happens and i interact with them in my book christian ethics but i won't mention their names on this podcast but they're good friends and we respect each other's differences um so there are more strict views of divorce as far as christian leaders i don't know of any responsible christian leaders who would advocate divorce for any reason just being unhappy with one's marriage or having difficulties in the relationship now people do get divorced in our both in the us and the uk uh for reasons other than the biblical biblically justified reasons um and for those persons um the question is what should a pastor do or a church elder church leader or a good christian friend do in terms of giving advice to someone who comes and says i got a divorce for a wrong reason now what should i do the first option with option a would be seek to rebuild restore the marriage if the other spouse has not remarried but if the other spouse refuses to be reconciled and restore the marriage then i think the person is let me just be careful how i say this david i don't want to undermine the high value of the permanence of marriage but if the un if the other spouse has remarried then the remaining spouse is no longer married to this to person a and can marry someone else if the spouse is unwilling to reconcile after a sincere attempt has been made then um i think that would be counted in most cases as a desertion willful desertion of the marriage first corinthians 7 15 would apply and then the person is free to marry someone else but there's something else that comes up david when i've taught on this in adult bible classes for instance i'm always aware that there are people that i don't know the background of in the class and they've gotten divorced and then married someone else for got divorced for not for biblical reasons but for wrong reasons just selfish reasons reasons perhaps or they fell in love with someone else once they've been married even though it was wrong to begin with i believe that god's will for them is now to make that second marriage a good one and remain married so i start out a class on divorce by saying the first thing i want to say is if you are married today no matter what the background is you are married to the right person and god wants you to continue that marriage and make it a good marriage we further sin to break up this marriage and and destroy that current marriage that you have uh let's not make the same mistake again jesus said whoever divorces his wife except for marital unfaithfulness or adultery uh commits adultery oh whoever divorces his wife except for marital and faithfulness and marries another commits adultery so he assumes that they they do marry someone else and uh once that has happened then i think pray for forgiveness for past wrongs and uh seek to be faithful to god in this marriage yeah i hope i'm being clear on this david because there are so many complications that can enter in yeah and it takes real pastoral wisdom on the live on the part of pastors and church leaders and and christian friends to speak to one another yeah and the great thing about your book as well wayne is it's only a short book isn't it it's a really accessible book you know for a recommendation for anybody listening with you know listening to this interview now wrestling with any of these topics would be to pick up a copy of this book uh are you are you speaking david i i should be clear are you speaking of this short book yeah yeah what the bible says about divorce and remarriage yeah oh i do have the new argument about first corinthians 7 15 in this book this first time published okay and the the quotation from philo and lysius and other greek authors the quotations are reported in this book brilliant so yes it is short and we'll make sure there's a link to that book in the description below that's a book by crossway excellent you've got another book coming out at the same time as well haven't you wayne tell us a little bit about that um yes the principle is that um we're not obligated to have as many children as we possibly can any more than we're obligated to get as much physical exercise as we possibly can or sleep as much as we possibly can um or study as much as we possibly can just the fact that something is good in god's eyes doesn't mean we have to maximize it so it seems to me that birth control is a legitimate option for christians to use again with prayer for god's wisdom in each situation yeah um but birth control methods that cause the death of a unborn child would not be morally acceptable and i don't think surrogate motherhood is acceptable either puts too much of a strain on the original marriage and separates the child from its biological mother it's not the same as adopting an orphan it's uh willfully yeah planning to separate the child from its own mother yeah so i don't think that i could give approval to that as far as i understand biblical teaching yeah there's another small book called what the bible says about how to know god's will and uh that's in that's more complex question than immediately it appears to be there are a number of factors to take into account um teaching of the bible the circumstances sense of leading of the holy spirit um understanding the situation anyway i go through a number of factors to consider and how to know god's will and i say it's like a golf swing it looks simple from the outside but once you get to trying it it can be very complex yeah we gain skill over time in the christian life in knowing god's will yeah we'll make sure we links to all of those books in the description below wayne before before we let you go i've got to ask you you've uniquely more than any other person that i know managed to walk on a line that has brought you the respect of both sides of the spiritual gifts debate how have you managed to do that [Laughter] wow um i think through god's graciousness um part of the part of the background that god brought me through which i didn't understand at the time included life in both of those cessationist and continuationist camps i grew up in a baptist church a bible-believing baptist church in wisconsin in the united states and had never heard of speaking in tongues or prophecy any of these things um i was in a charismatic prayer group while i was in university as an undergraduate um and experienced and worked for a leader in the charismatic movement one summer as a pastoral intern his name was harold bredesen and uh i worked his church as a pastoral assistant for summer and so i saw people being grateful and the lord doing miracles of healing and speaking of tongues plus interpretation and casting out demons so i had experienced those things then i went to westminster seminary in philadelphia which was a bastion of a cessationist viewpoint on spiritual gifts and i had to learn in the classes what the arguments were for that position and then i wrote some papers for john frame my theology professor there and ended up going to cambridge and doing a phd on the gift of prophecy in the new testament why could continue today and didn't challenge the authority of scripture and even the reformed people who don't agree with me on the nature of prophecy i think will admit that it's given a a position that is if if they don't agree with it still a respected option in the theological world to think that prophecy is reporting something that god brings to mind without having the authority of scripture but people who believe in god's providence believe that he directs all of our thoughts so why shouldn't be surprised that he could bring thoughts to mind that would be helpful in the situations in which we which we find ourselves from week to week i've been inside both movements yeah for some time and then five years in a vineyard two different vineyard churches and friendship with john wimber um also was uh influential yeah yeah so it's been a fascinating conversation dr grudem i really enjoyed speaking to you do you have any clothes and thoughts and how can people follow your work waynegroov.com website which i keep up to date from time to time but um my books and articles are listed there and hundreds of hours hours of audio teaching on theology and ethics brilliant well i'm going to make sure that the link to your website into your um books are in the description below do you do social media at all dr greeting um the the general answer is no i decided um if i got on facebook and twitter i would not get any books written yeah you made a wise choice no zondervan has a there is a facebook page for wayne grudem and there's a twitter account but it's wayne grudem and um what does it say and associates or something like that for you yeah it's it's a firm hired by zondervan to promote books that i publish through them yeah and they take excerpts from my writings and post them yeah so in that sense i am on facebook and twitter but um i don't i approve all of those postings month at a time in advance but i and make some slight edits to them from time to time yeah but i don't uh initially authored them i've been thinking maybe i should but on the other hand i don't it doesn't seem to me david that i have an ability that some christians do to respond instantly to new situations or developments in the news i have to think for several days before i come to a conclusion on what i should say about this news event or that news event and i'm just standing in awe of those christian friends who can within five minutes a tweet that analyzes the situation accurately and i say yes i i i agree i don't know how they thought of that analysis that quickly but i don't think it's what god has gifted me to do will you keep on writing books dr greenham i think you're in the right place i think you're doing the right thing thank you thanks so much for your time really enjoyed it good to talk to you great

Channel: Exposit The Word

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Keywords: When can Christians divorce & remarry?, divorce and remarriage, is remarriage a sin, what does the bible say about remarriage, divorce and remarriage in the bible, divorce and remarriage adultery, divorce and remarriage john macarthur, divorce and remarriage mike winger, divorce and remarriage john piper, Wayne Grudem, divorce and remarriage debate, divorce and remarriage in the church, divorce and remarriage tony evans, divorce and remarriage everything the bible says about it

Id: 3Ai9qQdV0TA

Length: 29min 54sec (1794 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 15 2021