What Makes Someone a Good Hunter? w/ John Eberhart | HUNTR Podcast #93

unfortunately some of the garments that we got from just they don't fit right like this was years ago years ago yeah my my crotch was at my knees like I I can't it doesn't not in a good way yeah [Applause] [Music] [Applause] the hunter podcast is brought to you by deer grow man it's almost food plot season Jared and dear girl is one of those products that has really changed the way that we plant food plots and the success we've seen from them no doubt I've been you know trying to plant food products my entire the Whitetail hunting career is a little shorter than yours but the minute that I started or that I you know I realized that I could get deer grow back into some of these remote plots where I couldn't get lime or fertilizer especially in the 50 pound bag you know format so everything was changed you know I could get into these spots moving forward with the backpacks prayer in that sense escalated to these 40 or 60 gallon sprayers and we're doing upwards of you know five to ten acre food plots just with your girl and having phenomenal yeah and I mean with the price of fertilizer lime diesel everything this year I mean what better way to get in there and grow successful food plot at about a third of the cost check out deer grow at deergrow.com and we're back hey Hunter podcast episode 93. this year Jared was born yes yes it was we just discussed this so 3 3 93 390 easy to remember uh it is because anybody's looking for a birthday gift for me probably not uh September September 8th September 8th but you're listening to this I think we said like the 23rd or something or 30th mid-september yeah yeah late September I think late September yep and uh wash out in Kentucky last weekend not not the greatest yeah got some things done that that needed done but um we were in their wheelhouse man just uh every night they'd come in about 35 40 minutes after dark until was that Tuesday night I sent you the picture next night two nights later oh you weren't out Monday night no we came home Monday so it was Tuesday night and like clockwork there they are they're scouting out they were sitting in their car drinking coffee eating french fries waiting for you to leave and then so yeah I mean it was fun they were both in there so he hunted for like two nights and then left and then the following night they're both they were both in her broad daylight yeah it was 20 yards from a blind it you know the weather the first night was was rough I mean it rained really heavy that day kind of let up but was just Misty and nasty that evening we didn't see anything and then the next day they said it wasn't going to rain during the whole evening from the moment we got in the blind at like 5 30 6 o'clock till dark it rained poured whole time and to be honest even if those bucks came out I don't think I would have let the kids shoot because like I have a pretty big pet peeve about shooting in the rain for with archery equipment well yeah I mean it's just it's risky yeah so I don't know you know we weren't going to get out of the blind but I don't necessarily know if I would have let them shoot um because of that I was just hoping any minute it was going to let up and it just it didn't so uh we got some cameras to reset um uh one of the food plots looks baller looks great uh the the one that we were hunting had I assume they're just hammering the beans in there but there was a lot of weeds we talked about this before you know some seed beds I think are just loaded with weeds and with the amount of rain we've gotten in these places yeah you know just takes them over so I uh nuked that food plot and then I seeded in uh some oats and winter peas cool so hopefully but then I got rain two hours later so I'm hoping the Roundup took effect as long as it dried it should be good I don't know I'm not sure what the window is I think I think the rain fast Windows if it dries dust is that what it's called yeah you're good like once it dries then you're okay and actually rain basically reactivates it for the plants to pull it through their pores so you don't want like a downpour I think right after because that will wash it off but um so I don't know so we'll see I'll keep an eye on the food plots but yeah other than that man pretty uh uneventful opening weekend did the other night um I'll just let the dogs out before we go to bed and uh let them out and then uh went to bed it was like five in the morning it was still dark out I hear this freaking dog barking at my house what the hell oh and I was just like what is going on like and I look out and I and I think I see like a dog barking at our house I'm like oh my goodness there's crate doors are open I had never let them in I just left my dogs out all night yeah they were they don't have a fence like that no they were for sure I mean Gunner was looks like he had been I came from a rave or something he was yeah they were having a good time tearing up the neighborhood Gunner's fixed right yeah it's a Buckley yeah I don't even consider that we might Buckle is out there breeding like a madman yeah most other people are pretty responsible for their dog you came back making up for my irresponsibility turn it off I'm dry dude but vodka is like a running Buck at all times like he's it's it's uh I mean you got them all penned up with that Daddy's all pent up yeah he's got it all built up in there so yeah I'm sure he had a blast I don't know what kind of crosses you're gonna be producing out in that neighborhood or something the other night they had a groundhog cornered in my yard like in the middle of the night it was like 10 o'clock we were getting ready to go to bed and I same thing or bark and I go out and like what's going on and there's a groundhog like you know they've got them cornered hey little fella yeah hey buddy oh man all right so you're leaving on an elk hunt uh next week or within a week yeah if you're listening to this you're probably back or coming back at this point yep um we talked about that and one of the last I think two podcasts ago yeah um we kind of went through your gear and so when you come back we're gonna do a recap of that hunt but for most people listen to this if you're in Ohio I think season probably is just opening if you're in Pennsylvania Michigan uh Minnesota I think a bunch of these states are like we're just opening bow season so we figured like let's bring in a guest that's going to get everybody fired up for uh bow season so we got Mr John Eberhart back um and you know what better way to kind of lean into the uh the bow season opener than with a guy who you know probably has been bow hunting longer than both of us have been alive I would say yeah seen a lot of seasons and so we're going to kind of pick John's brain on a few things here and talk about what he's got prep for the opener in Michigan and uh you know what some of his strategies are and then you know maybe dive into a couple couple other topics while we got them cool let's bring John in hey how's it going guys good morning yeah look at that huh nice bottle of sheds uh pretty much none of them from Pennsylvania this one was uh but everything else was from Kansas I believe there's not as many as it they're just big sheds big Kansas hoping to catch up with this one this year wow that's a public public deer yeah for real yep that's a public deer six seven eight split brow time this guy was also a public deer where was that from Kansas it's not fair is it no it's not isn't it we're almost worried to tell you because we know you're going to tell us how easy it is yeah well I mean while we're striking out here nope it's never Eve well yeah yeah easier I mean the funny thing is well and most of those and again it's no not knocking anything in the midwest like it's deer hunting nothing's ever planned out but you know if you get to um you know a state like Kansas you know especially in that late October November time period you know and you set up in some of these funnels on public land I mean odds are you're gonna see a bigger deer there than you probably will see in you know any of the other states Michigan Pennsylvania wherever uh that you're hunting like it's just they make big bucks out there and it's because they get old John you guys hunt Kansas right I think I saw a video of you and you and your son's hunting out there was that last year yeah last year yeah did you guys draw this year we did you did good for you man we're ready to go again yeah we all shot nice we all shot really good bucks last year nice what part of the state are you guys in uh we are in Northern Central we're about half hour south of Nebraska pretty much center of the state East West maybe a little bit farther west so we're out in the Plains area yeah so that's where we're down south east corner um Coffee County yeah Greenwood yeah you know and I think it's it you know just like anywhere I mean it's not a gimme right but it you know I I guess John do you use um how do you alter your techniques from Michigan and apply them to Kansas you know guys so this is your first time to Kansas no we've been there for nine I've been there nine years I guess will be my third or fourth this would be my fourth fourth but sixth year we've been putting in didn't draw last year or a couple years ago I want to say it's easy but it's it's far easier than where you guys sure let's put it that way because there's there's so many more mature Bots I have never been to Kansas where I could not have shot a 1.5 I usually try to you know when I started that's because all the two-year-olds are 125 inches out there yeah yeah absolutely you're absolutely correct you see them all the time yeah I can remember one year I saw 18 different pnys in a week yeah I mean I won't see there's I had three years go by here in Michigan without seeing one PNY box 100 yeah and I'm sure you see the same thing in PA so I I'm sorry the question was what do I do yeah what you know I mean obviously you've got a a very definitive plan like for the Michigan opener coming up and stuff but when you guys go out to Kansas like how do you take that same kind of mindset and apply it to you know what is basically a completely different landscape we totally drop our guard when we go to Kansas so I'm very cautious putting hammers out in Michigan because uh visits are intrusive now with cell cameras it's not that bad I put out four of Salt cans yesterday extra scams and uh we put we actually put a cell cam the last three times we've been to Kansas at every single hunting location when we usually have about 11 to 12 Trees prep for three guys and we totally hunt by what we get on the cameras now even prior to the cell cameras in Kansas we would actually put cameras at every location and we would go visit them every day and pull the cards we'd swap the cards off and it did not seem to affect movements because the deer just they seem oblivious to human intrusions like I shouldn't say oblivious but more so than like Michigan or PA or New York or Virginia where there's a lot of hunting pressure um because there's just not a lot of hunting pressure and uh so we set up in either pinch points or at scrape areas and typically where we're at because we're farther west there's not a lot of Timber so you get these draws these old floodplains draws and they may be they could be 50 to 100 foot deep from the flat egg area and it's kind of weird you'll look across the section or two sections and you'll see the tips of these trees out maybe half a mile from the road and you go out there and they're 120 foot tall cottonwoods coming up out of these draws and in these draws that's where if there's ever any moisture that's where everything runs off into and there's weeds there's hemp there's Plum brush it's just excellent excellent security cover for that type of an area it wouldn't be good security cover for Michigan they'd all get killed because it's not heavy security cover like a swamp sure but it's the best security cover they have so you just set up in the pinch points in those draws because that's the only place they have to transition through with any security covered during daylight hours so where we're at I'd say 80 to 85 percent of the land is either open Prairie or it's in crops and 15 of the land is in security cover so the security cover is so small the deer during the daytime are very condensed and they travel those draws and it's just it's just really easy it's actually easier than hunting eastern Kansas in my opinion because eastern Kansas has a lot more Timber sure so deer tend to wander more in big here I'll try to make an analogy I don't know if it'll come out right or not but like was it the Native Americans that would you know make fish traps essentially that would push you know fish out of the main river into smaller pools and they were easier than at that point to spear you know the Midwest seems to just in its nature you know because of uh like you said how limited the the habitat or like the the you know the places they feel comfortable moving dirt late areas of the security camera they become you know you have much less to cover sure you know it it's easier to pick a spot you know it's basically like Hey listen there's they can only come through a handful of spots here you know that's that's the one so John I guess my question and it obviously you know anybody who hunts Pennsylvania New York Ohio Michigan whatever here's you saying like yeah we're going in and checking these cameras before cell camera days all the time like that's a huge No-No in our area right like we blow every freaking deer out from you know in a square mile radius when you guys are doing that in Kansas though are the let's say are the Bucks that you guys end up harvesting usually captured on those cameras like you're hunting than a specific deer in that area 100 huh 100 we are totally hunting even when we did the SD card weed spot I mean what usually we have one four-wheeler I have my minivan my man and my sons bought that four-wheelers so we would drive to we will physically drive right up to the cameras well you know 20 yards sometimes yeah wow because you can drive down the edges of these crop Fields then you just walk down into the draw where some of the draws you can drive and we would pull cards and check them and if there was a buck there that morning uh we would this was always midday when we're checking cameras on cars uh we'd go up to sit there the next morning there was a buck there the evening before we'd sit there that evening even though we were just there doing a car you would never do that no that is the truth man no way dude the way the way that I think about it is like all these Northeastern states is like you know we pieced together a plan in our heads and we're like uh okay these you know fence lines come together here or this is a this funnel is going to work because of this and and like so many times I think we we think it's going to work and then it doesn't you know we go and hunt it and it doesn't pan out it seems like oh that same thought process when applied to a state like Kansas and I can't speak to you know Iowa I've never hunted there but you know some of some of these other Midwestern states and I'll I'll make a comment too it seems like the further like West you go the more like this it is even for for mule deer I think like in The Dakotas and stuff yeah those deer just like they do what they're supposed to do like this thought that we have of like they're gonna do this because this is this way sure in the Northeast it seems like so many times that doesn't happen because it's like the cut your wind or they've been pressured and now they're doing something different or food source is different out there like the percentage of that panning out the way you thought it would be seems to just be higher well and I would assume it's all it's all circled around hunting pressure right I mean that is 100 that is the the commonality if you look at what Pennsylvania Michigan Ohio Wisconsin like all these states have that frankly Kansas Iowa and The Dakotas don't have it's hunting pressure period yeah maybe is more important than anything else everything revolves around hunting pressure the more pressure there are there is the less mature bucks move during daylight the more deeper into the security cover they are going to be during daylight hours and out there there's there's so little hunting pressure there's so many mature bucks the rut is so competitive they respond to rattling they respond to decoys they respond to just about anything and there's because they don't have a house every 300 yards down the roads you know there may be five miles between homes but the farmers they're always driving around in their quads they've drive down through the the uh draws and stuff draw you know fix fences and stuff but there's never any negative consequences to the deer you know when there is that human activity so yeah you know they can spook deer with their trucks and quads and tractors and they just go back and doing the same thing so when you go check a camera they just come right back and the very next day I mean they have a very routine but you know it's it's very common out there to get a picture of a buck in a in a draw in one spot and the next day get a picture that same exact Buck two miles away in the same draw because those draws run for miles and miles and miles yeah yeah they just run through those draws trying to intercept whatever rusters goes there may be we always go both so we always go afterwards okay so do we yeah we're usually leaning on the edge of it that makes me feel a little better about um there's a spot on public down there that I I've really clung to and recently here we've got a cell camera and we've seen some I don't know if they're DNR guys or I think it's the neighbor fix and fences and I mean it's back in there like in a like I can't believe they're back there honestly yep but I'm not too worried about it like I think you know by the time week before November or week before Thanksgiving rolls around which this one will be there um I I don't think it's going to have really any impact on how they're cruising through I think like John said even with those guys in there there there's no negative impact to the deer by them being there fixing the fence yeah like that you know it just isn't and we rarely we usually have cameras there maybe not 12 months of the year running but nine and we rarely see any other Hunters back there yeah like very very rare that's the other thing we said too is this is the first year we've got the camera actually on the fence line and so it's entirely possible that these past three to five years that we've been hunting and and they were in there doing that fence work and we just never knew it yeah sure like those Farmers out there they're repairing fences and stuff all the time but there's no negative like you said no negative here and it's good that you have that mindset over here because when I first started hunting out west I went with the same mindset that I hunt for Michigan everything you know I assumed it was going to be similar and it didn't take me long to find out if it wasn't similar it was much easier because there's so many mature bucks and there's so little hunting pressure and it it just got to the point where we just dropped our guard 100 just did the natural thing you know like the TV guys do you can look at it you know a private big managed properties they can look at an aerial and find a pinch point because there's no hunting pressure nothing's going to affect that pinch Point other than them and they can set up in that pinch point and do really well you can't do that you can't go Google aerial on public land in PA or West Virginia and find a pinch point and assume nobody else is going to have that all screwed up for daytime activity so you know it's good to go with that mindset though that you have because when you know how to kill deer in a PA or a Virginia and you're hunting some public lands and stuff it just makes it that much easier out there you just have to drop some of that Garden those deer will move in areas during daylight hours here where you home it is crazy dude I that eight point I've only killed one Buck out there right yeah I've only killed one Buck out there it's like a 140 inch eight point probably a four-year-old now it was my best year at the time and uh that deer came from dead downwind and I knew I know he caught my wind I saw him for seconds nose up and then he decided it's fine it didn't matter yeah I'm going anyways well and the reason you were in there like because this was what the the next little last day I think that we were in there yeah I had hunted it for like six days straight well and he had he had been on this pattern it was an old uh railroad track bed and he would he would get up on this railroad track bed and there was a couple scrapes on it but he would work this back and forth between north to south uh between the two properties and like we knew he was kind of on that pattern and so that's why you stuck it out and damned if that's not how you killed him he got right up on that bed walked and and again and you know it was the only tree that we could make it work for that that situation you're basically eye level with that deer because the tree sat down and the railroad bed was up high you're almost it was all the things that back home we would have been picked out miles before yeah yeah the odds of that deer where you're at in PA not turning in inside out to get the hell out of Dodge we would have never even seen them 100 he would have caught our win far before we would ever laid eyes on him and hightailed it out well like it gets it's worse than that I had rattled that deer into the set earlier in the week yeah and like almost got a shot at him and I think he ended up kind of boogering or whatever and like he didn't see anything he didn't see anything and then that the morning that I killed him I saw him at first light you know and I'd run it at him and like he so he's well aware that there's like there's something happening in that bottom like it's kind of weird yeah and then later in the morning he just was he was going back to bed and even though he smelled me he says you know I'm going that's where I'm going there's no other way to get there so that's where I'm going yeah and and like you said yeah I killed him I leveled at 15 yards the other day which I rarely watch TV but I'm watch the more I watch and the sicker I can and this guy shot at this Buck I think it was in Kansas actually but it was on some a lease uh he shot at this buck and he missed it at like 20 yards and he was hunting over a pile of corn and that buck ran out about 20 30 yards far there would be nice brush and stood there and looked at the guy in the tree and then he walked off the guy tried to run him back in which was stupid to try and Punisher and that you just missed and the deer is looking at you in the tree uh that buck came right back the next day he shot it I mean it's just yeah it's I mean I feel like if I spook if you're in Michigan that tree to me is compromised for that year for that year yeah that deer is not going to come by that tree in the daytime you may go buy it but he's not gonna come you know if it's an old for they acorns he may come feed at it at night well I think it's you know a lot of guys here say like it's it's easier and that's just like I don't know the term that we're applying it's not necessarily a negative like it's it's pretty freaking cool I mean case in point we're all going to Kansas this year to experience that yeah it's amazing man how awesome is it that you can go in get aggressive get away with stuff you never would otherwise and maybe kill a giant Buck yeah that's awesome when we when I took my dad out there I think it was the first year he was there you know and this is a guy who hunted his entire life in Pennsylvania never hunted out of state Pennsylvania is all he knows right we put him in a stand in Kansas and one morning there were eight different bucks chasing a single doe and probably three of those were well over Pope and young and he's like what kind of place is this you know but it's it's because like you hear people and and again go back to the TV side of things you know you watch these things and you're like man that's like that's not real like that never happens exactly we never see it it's exactly what I was saying earlier it's like even our dads had gone in with that mindset of oh this setup's gonna work and yeah and it rarely does it you know just does and pan out the deer's not there whatever and so to go to Kansas and have all of your wildest dreams that you've had for 30 years fulfilled in a single morning in Kansas is like where has this been my whole life you know yeah yeah so I thought when I went out there and I was always man 20 or something so I mean you know I've got no we talked about it the other day I think you know four of my five biggest bucks have been from Kansas no surprise right yeah yeah I mean it's just just what it is it's interesting how the guys from out there perceive the eastern states I was talking to uh Cameron what's Cam's last name cobal Cameron Coble yesterday for a while we're gonna have him on a podcast here so he's from Southern Iowa and he was asking me about like Ohio he's like what do you think is better like Kansas or Ohio and I'm like what it's interesting that to hear him saying to hear him say that I mean this guy breathed your you know he's constantly studying the record books he's a Boone and Crockett official scorer and stuff and a lot of Boone and crocodere have come from Ohio and so I think having not hunted it he's like well like I don't what do you think like because Ohio seems like way up there and he's not wrong I mean they do kill a lot of Boone and crocodile we've killed some nice deer out of there but it is it's a different it's very different thing for a lot of reasons the main one we talked yesterday was I think topography yeah I think deer have a ton of advantages uh in the Northeast the two that come to mind is expose closed captioning not available yeah well and it's not even that John as much as it is like you know I'm a very I use my ears probably more than my eyes when I'm hunting right I'm a very here here I go out to Kansas and it's blowing 35 miles an hour I'm holding on to the tree I can't I'm not hearing anything you know and so it's just it always you're just hoping you can draw your bow back yeah by the time they come in you know play the play The Lean as the wind's blowing me but it it just it seems very strange that that is a very natural movement in weather conditions for those deer whereas if it was blowing 35 back home in Pennsylvania those two aren't moving at all they are locked down you know and it's just that's the way that it lays out because there's when you get a heavy wind in a Northeastern State you got a lot of movement so a deer's Visual and a deer's hearing is pretty much worthless yep and they they are just uncomfortable with all that move now you get out west where you've got a lot of wins I can remember I shot one of my bigger bucks in Illinois on public land two days after gun season ended in mid-December 35 mile an hour winds wind chill is like 20 below zero and I shot a monster 12 point um and he was moving in the wind I saw five bucks that night yeah but it was out west you know Southern Illinois you get to Southern Illinois and you go Iowa Kansas Nebraska uh The Dakotas the parts of Missouri I mean those are all anomaly states that just have monster big bucks and very minimal hunting pressure you know I can remember I'm a sales rep and I'm retiring at the end of this year from that job um and I rupt for Quaker boy yeah and this the this kind of goes hand in hand with deer but there's so many videos there were so many coyote videos where they were filmed west of the Mississippi River and basically you you know two every two or three calls out of five or six you have something come in yep and it got to the point where the stores in you know where I'm at in Michigan wouldn't even carry a coyote video call video if it was made in Kansas or Iowa or Nebraska they wanted videos that were only made east of the Mississippi River where there's hunting pressure because coyotes are exactly the same yeah you can go out there and call coyotes with no problem I can remember a guy shot over 150 coyotes he lived in Iowa and he hunted in Kansas it's not in Iowa and he shot over 150 coyotes and he moved to Michigan because he married a girl that worked at a sporting good store up here and he thought he was going to do something similar to that in Michigan he shot one coyote in a full season wow the winner of calling tiles he shot one and it had to me I've said this on the podcast before John I've got some family in Montana and like just to paint a picture of how different these places are that country is so vast out there and the coyotes are so plentiful they just run them over with snowmobiles they don't even like they don't even go with calls they're just like there's one a mile away and they just run it down and run it over and they'll kill dozens of them like that every year they do big like Voyages of like a dozen sleds and they're hey let's head to Billings and you know dogs they use snowmobiles well those snowmobiles will go like 90 100 miles an hour I'm just coyotes have no chance geez you know and I think we brought this up last time with John you know it and it's not it's not in a cocky way right but I do think that there's a strategic advantage to anyone growing up hunting Pennsylvania Michigan New York Wisconsin Etc then you go to these states that have complete opposite of of hunting pressure that we see and I think that you know you probably are overly cautious the first time you hunt it because you're trying to apply the same skill set and the same strategy that you've been used to hunting your whole life but quickly you can adapt and say well damn like this this isn't nearly as hard as what I'm dealing with back home you know flip it around like you just said in the coyote situation John this is what Kansas and Iowa people and I'm not picking on them but bring them to Ohio Pennsylvania New York Michigan and ask them to do the same thing it's not happening I I feel you know I feel sorry for a lot of those guys because they don't know any different I mean when I wrote my books pretty much every time I talk to anybody out west they they don't know anything different than what they're hunting sure so they can't comprehend how some states in the East can be more difficult the more they're at they don't they just can't comprehend that because they think they're hunting pressure dude yeah yeah so until they actually do it which they're not gonna do you know they're not going to see somebody that in Kansas yeah it's just not going to happen unless it's with a family for a social event yeah so and here John if I can like you know shed light on it too because if I heard that and I was a Midwestern Hunter like I would take offense like just it would be my first uh first response would be like well what do you mean it's not obviously not their fault I think what Jeremy and I have come to realize is um in a lot of different aspects of life and hunting is it really is like the the the the difficulties and the struggles and like so for us just the fact that we live here in a high pressure State and don't have access to a huge box writing like crazy all the time and that sucks ninety percent of the time but when we do get to go out and participate in something like like a Kansas Whitetail rut hunt it's like it's beyond our wildest dreams you know whereas if we lived in that environment 365 days out of the year it's just kind of another day and so we've had to just change our perspective and say the way we look at it is that you know in that same same respect I do feel bad for those Midwestern guys because it it seems it's kind of a weird way to say it they don't get to experience those yeah you know the difficult the difficult times it goes back to one of our past discussions we had I don't know if it was a podcast or two ago John but we we discussed um I don't know how to say it without like sounding we've discussed like how nobody's ever really been labeled like the best Whitetail Hunter because you can never label that that's impossible yeah well and that's what I'm saying is because like you hear it thrown around like and I'm listen there are very there's some very good Whitetail Hunters we're talking to one John eberhardt is one of these guys but like I can't compare you to uh don Higgins who lives and hunts in Illinois and Iowa right it's it's two completely different beats what relative yeah what you're what your success looks like in a Michigan compared to what Dons looks like in an Illinois maybe on the same playing field but from a number standpoint if I'm talking purely from a score standpoint or or whatever it's not it's not the same playing field right because so it's like when you're I'm sorry no no no you're fine John go it it's kind of like when you're the only person hunting a property it's like if I were the only quarterback in the NFL at my size 160 pounds I'd I'd win the MVP every year I'd be the best quarterback in the NFL or if I was the only guy in a swimming match you know did Mike you know Michael throw Michael Phelps out of the question if I was the only swimmer in a competition I would win every freaking time yeah so anytime you are the only one if you you can't do something against competition there's no way of rating your skill set absolutely none all competition or all skill set should be paced based on what type of competitive situation you're in because none of these pro athletes the icon Mickelson's the LeBron James is the uh Michael Jordan Mickey Mantle uh Michael Phelps Tom Brady you know they grew up swimming or playing golf or playing basketball or playing football on the same exact Fields as all of their competitors through Middle School through High School through college if they got Scholarships in college and then when they made it to the pros that's another step up in skill set but they they surpassed all of their competition to reach the icon status right and they competed on the same exact field all the time yeah you can't I can't take anybody seriously that hunts 100 exclusive property and kills a monster buck every year and his skill set means nothing whatsoever personal I watched a podcast with Tom or Tony labratt and Don Higgins and it's the only podcast I've ever watched from start to finish that was the one with both of them on at the same time Tony blew him out of the water oh totally perhaps from Michigan he's a Tony lapratt used to kill deer before he did this Land Management thing because he's a pretty Stone Cold killer and he knows how to hunt uh in my opinion Don Higgins you know anybody with the finances to do so can kill Monster Box can buy a bunch of property and don't let anybody else hunt it put food plots out there never interrupt the property uh put cameras out once you get a beer coming into the camera you know that takes zero skill in my opinion other than the fact that you planting nice crops like a farmer and growing deer um Tony I mean when you if you ever watched that podcast Tony absolutely blew down away you could tell who the true Hunter was we'll have to watch that interesting I am not a Land Management guy but I know Tony and Tony was killing deer before he started this Land Management thing in pressured areas so when he goes and does Land Management things for people he knew how to kill pressure deer so if you're going to do Land Management on somebody and all their property ordering properties are surrounded by tens and twenties of people that are not like-minded Tony knows how to set up property so you're gonna have their opportunities on your property even though the deer may be pressured on the board yeah I think In fairness or just like the conversation and this also ties into what you're talking earlier in terms of like competition or uh you know icon status who's the best or whatever yeah it almost just seems like it's a different thing um I mean there's a big conversation to try to like put into a few statements here but like it seems like what Don Higgins and you know some of the guys let's throw Mark jury in there are some people that are known for you know managing you know you know high profile Farms Ultra management that that is a very different thing and requires almost a it's not no skill it's a different skill set to be able to like you know to to you know build a farm into like a hunting environment that's like the ultimate control like I put the food collector I put the water hole here I put the Box blind here I manipulated these deers movement to be able to get them to do that that that's almost to me it's the same activity same sport but it's an entirely different thing and skill set than what you and Tony are going after which is very little manipulation solely hunting Pursuit understanding you know reacting to what a deer is doing to be able to kill him on on his terms like you know I think Jeremy and I have respect for for both well it's because we do both we we do property that we manage and we hunt and it is not pressured right we also go to a lot of places where there is pressure and the challenge of getting on a buck and finding that buck and getting in the right place at the right time is it's satisfying but in a different way and why and why I think John and I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you have a red bottle here why I think that that relates to like our the competition thing and like who's who's the best hunter which is a fair question like as human beings I think we all want who's the best you know who can we look to who's who's like uh you know the best um unlike Sports you know even though you know you play on different fields against different teams like you know there's different objectives or ways to score the the sport of hunting I think is so much more Dynamic not only in the sense that like the environments are different but literally the objectives are different you know it's it's like well if my objective is to kill a certain age class of animal a certain score a specific animal with a certain weapon like it's so it's so much more Dynamic than you know just use the NFL say like the point is score a touchdown get the most amount of points and yeah I can do it by running or throwing but they grow those plants I mean when you are on those Ultra management places you are not shooting deer or you're calling eight points you're calling any deer that are not double digit when they're two and a half year olds you're physically growing deer just like a Rancher grows cattle for the market yeah the only difference is they grow deer they got multiple multiple monster bucks on their properties and once they hit the entertainment value of TV then they shoot them so it's not like it's to me it's just different if when you take competition out of the mix uh I think 50 of the hunters in this country could go on drury's property or dining and property and do every everything but but In fairness John I don't think that 50 of guys could have manipulated the property the way that Don and and Mark have done well they wouldn't have the finances sure sure big part of it and that's that's what I'm saying is like I think that it's not like a point that they've reached like it's beyond what any of us have done it's just the the circumstances that they're in because they have finances to do it because they live in a state that you know allows that for that to happen it seems like those guys and I've experienced a little bit of this like just in land ownership I can see why it's appealing not again not as better or worse I think those guys are getting more satisfaction out of being able to manipulate a property in a deer's movement yeah and then ultimately killing him then you know in your in your word essentially being a better Hunter like under being able to read sign being able to hunt against other Hunter pressure it's a it's become a different thing for them well it's their job that's their job I mean Mark drury's job is to sell his skill set to Hunters and that's fair obviously get sponsorships that's his job so he's in the entertainment field I can remember when he first started coming out and bowling in the 90s we were I used to wrap jewelry videos and and those guys well you're somebody else Johnny well there's somebody that's not in the engine like are you guys brought up breweries I didn't oh yeah yeah no no no and I want to stay on it but so let's use another guy who's not on TV who's it's not his business like you know the question would be are there guys out there who oh without a doubt I know what you're doing I know where you're going yeah there's thousands and thousands of people that loved it and I agree with that you know what Jared I I'd be an idiot to say I don't agree with that people want to kill big bucks so they want to have the least competition they can they want to grow as many big bucks on the property as they canceled their odds are going to be better obviously yeah and uh you know obviously the more people you keep off your property and the more you keep it to yourself the less the deer are pressured the more they're going to move during daylight hours the monster bucks you're not targeting them until they're four and a half years old so they have no negative consequences when they go by the hunters as they're growing up to that age so they're more apt to move during daylight hours they're going to be less worried about wind direction you know if they smell humans because they did it when they were one and a half two and a half and three and a half year old bucks and they didn't get shot I think I think it's just a lot of difference I think it's a control thing John I think it's just and maybe not everybody has that but like I think as Hunter as bow Hunters especially and as as men I know I am this way inherently like I feel the need or or the desire to like have control over the situation or or wildlife and so you know I having planted food plots myself or you know even on the the lowest level of it hung a stand a set that was successful the fact that I manip controlled that environment like the deer did what I I made it do that essentially like and I've said it before in when it comes to deer hunting I'd almost I'd rather be good than lucky because the satisfaction that I get out of having controlled that situation you know I think some guy's really taken around with that all the way to the point of managing Thousand Acres I think it's gratifying to do what you're doing and have it all together and I almost think to to a point and again biggest property I'm managing is 130 Acres so in all aspects I'm not controlling anything but the the fact I can't even control my emotions uh the fact is is like much less yeah no [ __ ] I missed uh I must get more sad like I it's two very different things like so for instance last night I'm behind my house I got 28 Acres behind the house that you know we cleared out an acre of Timber recently and the food plot looks great and the kids are excited about it like the hunting aspect of that although in the back of my mind is not nearly what's registering at that moment to me it's more of like cool I set out a goal on this property I wanted to do this I want to see deer I want to observe deer but I'm almost not even thinking about like how am I gonna kill that buck or a big buck or whatever like it's more of what did I what did I create to then and I'm I'm agreeing in John's sense too of like that control or that you know unpressured situation that said if I have a camera on public land five miles away and it gets a five-year-old Buck on it I'm hunting that deer yeah so it's I want that success of you know I don't necessarily think it's to the extreme of deer farming it's deer management or wildlife management or habitat Management on a private property because frankly I like to see deer I like to see turkeys I want to see grouse when it comes to the hunting side of it I do want to kill the biggest deer I don't care where he's at if he's not on my property and he's on public I'll hunt him on public like it it's almost like as much often don't you rather kill him off of that food plot that you planted than on public I that's the control line that's where you say that's where you say well it's more satisfying because I created the environment I controlled it I don't know man I I just never heard that see I've never heard it put that way Jared I to me I would do the if I had a chance of killing 140 on my own property with food plots and stuff versus a 140 on public heavily fresh Republic man I'd take the public land because he's the harder one to kill right interesting yeah I think you're a minority there too I respect the answer I probably am I like it I like the answer I I don't know if I could say personally that I would take that either because I know it's going to be harder I know I'm not I know I'm the other way I know and it's not a I don't think about it in terms of difficulty necessarily while that may be true I think about it like I put the work in and he's doing what I said it's that to me is gratifying just even to see fawns eating in a food that's what I'm saying like I I like that aspect of the wildlife and seeing it when it it is really a switch on and off because like the moment I see a buck that I'm interested in I don't care obviously I have to have permission to hunt the property but I don't care if it's my property I put uh six months of work into or permission that makes it even harder yeah it's even harder at that point all right let's raise the stakes here gentlemen so yeah I mean that's that's but it is it's a very it's a very different approach on it now pose with the situation of I have a an exact same age very close score Buck on my place versus uh public at this point in my life frankly I probably would kill the public one because my kids probably are going to hunt the easier one yeah I mean that's just being honest with myself is like the kids are probably gonna get a chance at the easier one than I am hence the dynamic you know why I'm saying it's well and that's why I ask about the Kansas thing because what's so interesting like we all seek um a weird satisfaction right at the culmination of this thing we all seek a weird satisfaction of of accomplishment and so like when we go to Kansas I don't care if we're hunting a lease or public or whatever you kill a mature buck in Kansas that is my that is what I set out to do I don't care if he scores 125 or 185 like you know I'd love to shoot a giant but like if I shoot a mature buck in Kansas with my bow that's what I set out to do same with Pennsylvania or Kentucky or wherever I'm hunting but how that satisfaction individually is perceived per John if he has access to a piece of property behind his house and there's a 140 or there's a 140 on public Heap you probably get more satisfaction out of killing that public land here without without question and also you got to keep in mind when you're going on these out-of-state trips there's a real high level of satisfaction because it's a short-term hunt absolutely anytime you have a short-term hunt and you get it done uh I don't care what state you're in you go out on a one-week hunt and you kill big buck on public Landers knock on doors for permission stuff uh in Kansas or Iowa or Missouri that's a big sense of satisfaction you made it happen on in a week seven days of hunting versus three to four months of hunting in your home state and on the as far as the best hunter in the country it could be some dude that hunts public land in Pennsylvania you know in the Hill Country AG property and he's killing two and a half and three and a half year olds every year in a heavily pressured areas he could be the best hunter there's there is no way of putting it well and I think that's what it comes down to we we always want to search for it I just think because there's so many different Dynamics yeah we all know it's not you can't name it you know good good Hunters but it's always with an asterisk because is it good because they kill it on a high pressure public is it good because they're killing giant bucks in the Midwest every year like there's always some undertone asterisks to it when you say they're a good Hunter yeah yeah and there's so many levels okay are you gonna say a guy is a great hunter because he can go hunting an enclosure and kill 100 or 200 incher every year and pay 17 000 is he a good Hunter because he did that and then you go the next level down the next level down is ultra manage drop you like the TV Guys Don Higgins you know can Don Higgins go to PA and kill that two and a half or three and a half year old every year that that guy's been killing that is a phenomenal honor no Don Higgins couldn't do that he doesn't have that skill set so he's not multifaceted well and let me throw you guys let me probably go to Don it's every bit as good that's an interesting point let me throw this into what you just said right there because this is what like the the thing that just throws a wrench in in all of it is you know bad Hunters like we say kill big deer all the time like there's a there's an element of luck that that's why 100 existence and so for us to say well there's Don or whoever you want to use well Don couldn't come to PA and kill this buck who knows a little Amish girl with the crossbow did so John might get lucky also I said consistent I didn't say oh did you okay yeah yeah okay consistency well there you go that's kind of the defense for what I suppose and so and here's the the thing that we haven't even addressed at all let's um yeah let's let's look let's let's look at this overall is what about the guy and we talked so we we talked to um uh Jake elinger a couple weeks ago John you know Jake he's a Michigan guy was in qdma stuff big big bow hunter in Michigan as well um and so I think I know who he is yeah and so when we're talking to Jake you know Jake got to a point in Michigan where you know I don't know if it was in the late 70s early 80s where he basically started passing one and two-year-old bucks to try to kill a three year old Buck Right and and so how many great hunters are out there in Michigan Pennsylvania et cetera who for and I'm not putting this like egotistically in there but I've killed a ton of two and three-year-old bucks consistently on public land in my life I eventually said you know what I'm always for and older that's my goal now there were several seasons I didn't kill [ __ ] because my goal was forward and older does that make me or anyone else not a great hunter because I could have killed three-year-olds all day long if I wanted to but I chose not to so now I'm not killing deer but it's be not because I didn't have chances it's because I set my standards higher well what a great what a great opportunity to like look look and so you know we're looking out at an industry or at you know people to say who's who's you know how am I rating myself as a hunter and so like I think what you just said right there is a great evidence to say maybe I should just look at myself that you can have the only competition you can have is within yourself because that's the only time that the playing field will always be level um Jake's Jake's got a really cool story because he you know he evolved out of um just a really a high pressure state where if it's brown is down that was that was the culture it was Michigan right and there was I think it was there was very few deer at when he first started his hunting career so to even see one was like I was crazy he was a Trapper and a small Game Hunter when he started and so he now at this point in his life think he's in his 70s 78 is 78. oh wow that's not what I was thinking I think so yeah older gentleman and he's got he's got essentially a wall of it's pretty I think it was pre-85 is I think the time for 85.87 pre-him you know trying to like hold out for an older age class if you're trying to uh you know and he's big on the he was a qdma guy like we said so he was starting to make modification he was one of those guys that sat down for hours you know he would sketch out plans on his just obsess over his 160 acre property or whatever it is all these tree plantings and stuff and that's where he finds joy but so he's got this pre all of that wall with like a bunch of forked horns all over it you know and then he's got another wall after the fact that's like a trophy wall you know and people might take that out of context but they're big deer yeah one anything from 115 to 150. you know and it's pretty cool to see that transition but there's a guy you know and John I'm sure you're even to that point because I mean how many how many two and three-year-olds do you probably pass in a given season oh I yeah I like you I do I pass up two and three if they're not 125 I typically won't that's the goal is that the goal now John is in Michigan is uh 125 is the goal in Southern Michigan my goal which is more Ag and they they did Bigger parade group uh it's 125 in northern Michigan 115. yeah because I mean I've shot five-year-old bucks up here that are 105 inches this Buck was a seven and a half and he scored 106. yeah but that's a Pennsylvania Mountain buck in fact he decreased probably 20 inches from the year before otherwise if you're yeah if you're hunting in an area and there's no 125 you're wasting your time sitting in a tree oh yeah I mean that deer the deer feel dressed at like 235 you know so I mean you know this big old bug back to your point qtm things just talking about regular hunting and you know a lot of qdm guys they have they qtm their property but they still don't know how to hunt I would agree with that yes and so I've done a lot of seminars at those and I've talked you know and then you would always be the cocky guys to come up well you know I'm qdming and I'm you know these guys are in their 70s late 60s and you know I've shot six pulping Young Bucks off my property and these were all admissions by the way and I said okay well how how many years so he's being cocky like he's this great hunter I said well how many years have you been doing this qdm on your property uh 10 and I've got six people Young Bucks well how many years did you bow hunt before you did your qdm property of 35 how many Young Bucks did you kill during that 35 years before you did qdm property so that I put it in I I just put them back in their place okay you're not hunting property that a normal person gets to hunt well I am in the minority Jared I totally agree with you and I get a lot of black for that I just deal with reality sure and uh and you know like you guys you guys can go to Kansas and you're gonna see three and you're gonna see 125s and 140 inches whether you put them or not yeah where you set your criteria yep you may come home empty I totally agree with you Jeremy if you will come home empty it's because your criteria was above what you know you could have killed something maybe 125 I'm hoping young yep and then maybe the last day you say okay I'm gonna drop my sure thing down to 125 and then you don't get the opportunity and I'm satisfied with that like me too you have at home yeah I'm content driving home I'm not having filled that tag knowing that like the one that I wanted or or a group of bucks that I was looking for just weren't there well it's what you said there just a minute ago I think is is really interesting as it pertains to our conversation about like Land Management and manipulation versus just call it hunting skill it seems like the the uh implementation of qdm is almost a substitute or you know it it lessens the hunting skill required because you're producing an environment like it's not like before I had to go to a blank slate and just read what the deer are doing and take advantage of it no I've spent time and money to to create a food plot or you know something that's going to funnel deer into a certain area thus my hunting skill or ability to read is less less is required of me to be able to kill those deer that's why you know on on the extreme end of it you know Mark durian Don Higgins can go out and sit in a box plan on a food plot and not read a lick of sign never go into their woods and kill the biggest deer on the property right so that's interesting it's kind of yeah I I totally agree with that yeah you're absolutely right it is an interesting thing because uh you know again I like Jared and probably a lot of guys listen I get a lot of satisfaction out of planting a food plot and watching the deer and think like I I do you know and almost in a way of in Pennsylvania because we can't bait you know my food plot behind my house is just as much a tool for my kids to hunt over as it is to keep deer at two and three-year-old protected or try to keep them protected on my property so the neighbors don't kill them right I mean that's it's almost as a defense Technique we talked about this with baiting in Ohio as like almost as a defense technique in some cases not only that I just just popped into my head think about the same way that we don't you know not let kids shoot small bucks you know it's because we want to keep them interested you know we want them to have a fun would have them to have success you know some guys could look at this as an excuse but I think that's it could also be applied to guys you know hunting over corn piles or hunting with cross but like something that gives us an advantage like I was just saying because there's I've got a deer on my property right now that man he might be he might be killable like you know enough time enough effort enough enough skill you'd be able to read how he's coming out of this clear cut into a bean field and maybe kill him um but like so for my uncle not that my strategy would be any different putting a corn pile out is not out of the question you know because and I'm trying to think you know why is that like we talk so much about should we not bait Like It ultimately it seems like we're if I don't know if Michael and I are at the same point here in our hunting careers but it's like man that that they're killing that buck off the corn pile like we're making the assessment at this point like right now at that point in the season you know would be worth making it easier with a corn pile like the satisfaction would still be there to get the satisfaction man it's a tough It's a complicated like decision so many levels to the corn thing because you can go out you can go out west where they allow you know putting out corn like you see on the TV shows that you're always come in and they may be in a weed field and they always come in right to the tree yeah they got corn in the weeds so that you can't see the camera well John we're we're friends here so I can say this and I'm I'm not like uh holier than now I bought 7 500 pounds of corn the other day my barn is full I need like a freaking I need like a silo okay you know what's important man it was 13 bucks yeah Lake community so like there's deer in my yard my wife likes I got it for eight from a neighbor and at the end of it he said y'all got any flavoring I was like uh no he gave me a little water bottle with no label on it that says Apple p.m guys they become good I mean they are becoming good at farming you know you know how to put in the soil to make the crops grow and you plant this and that and you line your property figure out what grows the best with the deer like the best and that's what you plant so there's a lot of farming spill so you you become skilled at other things and there's an element of that I like I just think that the the I don't want to say like true Hunters but a hunter will then make a flip of a switch to say okay where is the opportunity for me to achieve my goal and and the where I'll get with that John is I don't think that many of these guys who hunt solely manicured properties would be willing to not hunt those properties and go find a deer on public or elsewhere if they don't have a deer that meets their criteria right so if my criteria is to hunt a four and a half year old Buck if I don't have one on my my managed property I'm going to go and start placing cameras on public or elsewhere to find a four and a half year Buck for me to hunt this year not a lot of cameras if you do that well yeah maybe I do but but yeah my goal is where I think some people I I would and I think we talked about this like if you don't have a four and a half year old buck in your area then like you have to reset your realistic goals or be ready to not shoot anything the hunter podcast is brought to you by stealthcam dude where would we be without our cell cams I would definitely be divorced at this point yeah I hear that I mean the fact is is I spent more time checking cameras than I actually did hunting prior to cell cameras now at least my wife can enjoy me being in the comfort of my own home buried in my phone checking those pictures 100 and dude when it comes to trail cameras I definitely sell cameras reliability is I think the number one thing that we're looking for Stealth cam just has a long reputation of reliable cameras and ultimately that is the most important thing to us they have to work in terms of reliability there's not a better camera on the market than Stealth cam whether you're talking about the fusion X the reactor the DS 4K transmit and most of them are under 200 bucks southcam.com check them out [Music] pertain to your your goals John so where you're at in Michigan it's it's 125. uh and you know obviously situational my my uncle and I who I bring up in the podcast all the time my uncle's one of my biggest influences for getting into bow hunting and and wanting to pursue big animals but even today after hunting together for years and years we've got some pretty Stark differences in how we look at you know dear we should Target frankly yeah so you know his and he's you know 58 I think he's 58 and so he is very much interested in the score very much it sounds maybe more in line with your thinking you know he's like not an age guy so when presented with the opportunity I think 10 times out of ten he would rather shoot 150 inch three-year-old than a 140 inch four-year-old um and I am I'm on the other side of it I I prefer an older age class of animal you know I would rather shoot a lower scoring well but you're saying that because you want that three-year-old to make it to four to be bigger right that's where it gets interesting because if if it's 170 inch four-year-old or 150 inch five-year-old I'm probably going to shoot the 170 inch four-year-old because there's a point where age becomes it's it's mature it's it's no longer it's not going to get a lot bigger yeah and whether it's four or five I totally agree with that yeah there's just so many levels and all so well so what are your thoughts on that John would you you know West yeah it probably pass on the younger buck with the higher potential or if I was managing property there's no question I'm not worried about that you're getting killed by anybody else so he's gonna be there next year unless coyotes get him or something happened the HD or CWD um so yeah I'm gonna definitely do exactly what you're talking about and let that deer grow another eater but didn't where I'm hunting in Michigan you can't let a decent deer go because the odds of them getting killed they're really high here at guns I see I guess I guess the question is and stick with Michigan where you're hunting primarily does does age bear any relevance on your desire to shoot an animal or not none absolutely zero wow I'll be perfectly honest with you nothing it's all about antlers yeah they're not I can't say that deer's gonna be there yeah for your style of hunting John being a lot of high pressured areas I think that's you don't have a choice yeah exactly I don't have a choice because the odds that you're making it whereas you're passing that deer because you think you will make well and those odds are such a such a gray area that's where I that's where we have conflict is that my uncle will be you know and I'm fully support where he's coming from he'll listen to this podcast at some point but like you know I think we convince ourselves that he will or he won't get shot it's easy to let that influence whether or not we'll shoot that animal you know so in my defense you know I want to believe man if I kill him he's truly not going to make it like there's always a chance and I want to hold true to that maybe it's because I have just in terms of our age and maybe I have more years ahead of me type of deal but and he is more like dude that thing's getting shot like there's a 90 chance it's not it's not gonna make it I'm gonna kill that animal and so we we have conflict there say we should or we shouldn't you know yeah obvious I've had that discussion with a lot of people you're absolutely right you kill it it's guaranteed he ain't gonna make another video yeah well you know and it's one of those like it's one of those staple statements that I could see somebody hating it's like you can't come from the couch yes but well I mean I'll be I'll be the first to say it at some point I change to that four-year-old status but I was probably closer to John's mentality when I hunted a lot of public land uh of which you know I was looking for probably at that time 110 or 115 inch deer and bigger like I mean you know it was at one point when I was in college it was a legal Buck right I was just looking for legal bucks with my bow to kill uh it it is you're doing it right Jeremy you're doing the progression that's the natural progression of becoming in my opinion a good Deer Hunter you know when I started Boeing I'd shoot a button buck one I'd shoot a dope one yeah and I graduated up to a mature dogs and you're an apple bucks yep and then it's two and a half year old bucks and then I went to three now so I kept progressing my skills set whereas if I just shot a deer I'd be done in two days a season and I you know I just kept wanting to up my challenges and that's kind of exactly what you're doing and I don't I'm not knocking anybody for this but we've brought this up before and I know people give us [ __ ] on it essentially but like at some point you have to challenge yourself like that's anything in life but but let's just focus on Hunting here like at some point if I go out with my bow and I kill a four corn or a one-year-old six point every year for 10 15 years in a row do you not want to challenge yourself like absolutely and I don't question this is like just on a hunting side I question it as an overall life goal of like if you never challenge yourself at this point or you're comfortable and satisfied every year killing that four point you better check yourself in the mirror I totally agree 100 yeah it's just a natural thing like to improve as a human to improve as a husband or a father or a boyfriend or whatever it might be at your job like at some point you have to challenge yourself and you will fail you will eat tag soup you will not be successful but that's only part of the process you're never afraid if you're always afraid of failure you're never going to get good at anything in my fear John in this society and this is why like I I wrestle with this with my kids all the time is that we are very quickly approaching where everybody wants it easy and nobody wants to fail um you hear people and this is not the pick on people but you hear people that have a failure in their life and they literally mentally break down like they fall apart as a human being when I failed I learned from it and said [ __ ] don't do that again how do we beat it we'll take that and relate it to what we're saying about the like the Northeast for example versus the Midwest like easy is overrated you know yeah because if you're only experiencing big box fronting all the time you know it just becomes like you expect that you know and you just it's just what it is and if that gets taken away from you it's like it's and where does that satisfaction go like at some point if every season I hunt and I see multiple four and five-year-olds multiple booners and I kill a booner where do I go from I can't just say well cool I'm only going to kill 200s exactly it's a unicorn well and this is this is what's cool about deer hunting is I think it and I don't know I mean I think it's to me the pursuit of a specific animal and the fact that each one of them has a different personality and stuff that seems like kind of an unending Pursuit John does that uh fall into your hunting style in Michigan at all I know it has I'm sorry finish your statement well uh just because you know you talk about the the ability not to purposely pass but obviously you don't get an opportunity at every Buck you hunt so do you start to build history with a specific deer that becomes that individual you know competition you against a specific deer uh there are times where I will in the last few years I'll get pictures of this specific beer like the one I got last year up here one of the two I got last year in Michigan I was targeting that specific deer typically when I'm doing all my scouting and location prep I'm prepping locations based on deer sign and why deer mature bucks should be in this area and if this specific spot so typically I'm not targeting a individual beer okay I have in the past and I'm pretty good at it you know Miles Teller was like that I don't know if you guys remember I remember miles he had a job where in the 80s he was driving around he'd see big bucks out in fields and he'd get permission because it was a lot easier back then and he was excellent probably the best man I've ever known that I've read about that was good at targeting a specific animal just randomly not on a specific piece of manic property with no competition it just ran he would just see a deer and physically go get permission try to figure that deer out in a short period of time and kill that beer and he was really really good at it I on the other hand am a little bit different there's times when I know somebody will tell me there's a monster deer in this spot so I'll go Target that deer but usually I'm just hunting places where big mature bucks in a pressured scenario would be you know back in the heavy security cover I hunt in Bedding areas a lot everything is security cover oriented and I would assume John that some of those places fail to produce right they just they don't have a buck of the caliber that you're looking for they either don't have one I'm looking for the timing is not right now I'm not there on the right days where you go find a tree so that's a scenario too because I never overrun my spots a lot of times I'm sure they go buy it when I'm not there sure I I think John what you're saying in my opinion depends a lot on time of year like early early in late I assume early early and late in the season it's very much you know patternable but it's you really can't beat a good spot during the rut um yeah you're right yeah that's why I can't rewrite three rights in my favor that's like what so in Kansas granted it is Kansas but we go during the rut and that affords us the opportunity to just hunt good spots we don't have a specific the Bucks coming out here he's doing this we don't know we know what a good spot is because of terrain topography and they end up there they all end up there and I would assume that you're probably more efficient at hunting the deer of the caliber you're looking for now John because of trail cameras right in the 80s and 90s it was purely signed and you're basically saying well there should be a big buck in here or there could be a big buck in here based on the sign but you don't know you have no idea we've got lots of locations and we have a camera at every location and you know according to what you see on on the camera yeah so it's uh it's just totally different it's an interesting thing yeah I mean when you when you start to look at kind of the the situations and again it's that satisfaction which everybody's different on that you know there's definitely a time in the season probably mid-october I would say when scrapes are cranking that like I just go for probably I don't know eight to ten mile walk on on deep public land and find scrapes and put cameras up just because out of curiosity just just because I want to know like I tell you a lot you know there could be a big buck and if there is you know what I'll go and hunt them if I'm not tagged out but everybody should have that like time frame in their mindset that says I'm gonna go and try something new I'm gonna go in a new area I'm going to look at new sign because even if you hunt a very very well managed property I do not think that there is any substance to for woodsmanship and being able to understand deer sign I don't care how good the property is I don't care if you just want to go to a box blind and hunt a food plot it it still understanding woodsmanship and and how deer react and behave and the sign they leave behind is a critical skill maybe you don't use it this year but sure as hell you're going to use it at some point in your hunting career yeah and one thing you mentioned uh you know going during the run you mentioned that Jared we go pulse running campus Because I suffered in Michigan with everybody else you know I like to suffer with all the people on public lands and you have to work hard at it and so I don't leave Michigan until gun season yeah because I don't gun it so 15th in November so we go to Kansas we leave on the 16th and Kansas has such a late gun season just like yeah December Ohio does but we can hunt the post ride yeah in Kansas before the gun season what are you call it what do you call it same time frame uh our hunting starts getting really good around the 22nd 20 . so the pink ruts over most of the major the vast majority of the does have been bred and now those big bucks actually because when we go during the peat run which when we get out there and we start hunting about the 19th because the first two days we just prep location the 19th 20th 21st we see a lot of 130s you know 135s lots of them um but then once it gets the 22nd 23rd 24th we start seeing the monsters no longer right at the end of our trip yeah they're no longer doed up and now their testosterone is still extremely high and they they want to keep reading so now they physically have to go out and search for those late episodes because typically during a Peak ride those mature bucks are breeding those in heavy security cover and not moving a lot yeah that's why you see all the little bucks searching around and moving around so they're looking for a loose doe so I think I think we're either a week ahead of you or we usually it overlaps we always leave um the Friday of Veterans Day that's that is just that's the day that we always and then we're we're there through like the Saturday before Thanksgiving yep and what day what day is that of the Year I'll tell you right now so we are leaving we find the 23rd through the 27th to be I think this year we're there the 12th to the 18th so you're there over Thanksgiving you guys are there Pete right yeah we're there over things yeah over Thanksgiving okay so yeah we'll be there like the 13th through the 19th type of deal and what we've seen is like uh I I don't think we've granted you wouldn't see it but like it didn't uh it seems like what has a way bigger impact is the the temperature yeah the weather you know it seems like when it's cold they're they're gone you know we see a lot of scraping activity a lot of cruising activity um I guess it could be hit or miss but on trips that we have that it's warm like I think 2020 we was it 2020 yep and it was hot and I mean they just shut off completely it was terrible it was terrible you know my son went to my son Chris when he was with me when he was around he uh he went on an Iowa by himself in was 80 degrees in three days he saw no bucks dropped out to 35 degrees one night next day he saw 11 bucks yeah the hunter podcast is brought to you by Hoyt Archery dude where would we be without our hoytos probably shooting crossbows or a Matthews here one in the same but in all seriousness we love being Hoyt guys because you stand out when you're in this room full of other people that shoot these other types of bows I feel like the Hoyt guys just stick out dude it's just a legit bow I mean especially that carbon Riser man I mean I know that they've got several other aluminum lines as well but for me I'm shooting that rx5 in the carbon model they've since come out with the RX7 and uh I can't tell you how much I love being a white guy amongst the C4 of Matthew's guys so we're out there I think proving them wrong shooting 80 pounds and killing stuff hey man if you want to get serious get Hoyt [Music] okay so one of the things I wanted to talk about just because it's been brought up and Jared and I don't know a lot about it so we figured maybe you definitely know more than we do is the Mitch rumpola buck and so um if people don't know what this is they probably will then they see the picture Mitch has got like a big black beard and there's this giant wide Michigan buck that um maybe you know I would say is probably one of the most debatable Buck slash pictures um what's debatable about it well I mean is it is it real did he kill it is it legal was it a high fence like and that's where I'm at Q John in because I don't know much more than that about it well there was there'd be no way it would be a high fence because somebody would have a picture of it sure a Rancher sure obviously um I I've been a score since 1985 in Michigan and uh uh Mitch is actually was the scoring chairman for a lot of those years he actually signed my card wow famous for so I know Mitch very well I've done seminars with mentioned Lansing Center before at our dear Expo um Mitch is a different type of bird um I was I can remember I was at a show when I rep for Golden Eagle bows which you guys remember those yep he got bought by Baron went defunct yeah um yeah I was at the Deer Expo and Mitch took me back in the back room he had this big white lock box and he opened it up he unlocked it and pulled out this shut and it was a hunter or it was a 98 inch one-sided by typical five it looked like a Jordan which the Jordan Buck was the world record for years and years yeah yeah it looked just like that and when he pulled it out of the box you know I could immediately tell that he had put something on the antler colored it because you the antler was weather checked Big Time sure you could tell this antler had laid outside probably in a Midwestern State a Kansas and arid state for a couple of years it was that weather check and out there they don't get eaten by the mice and squirrels and stuff you see some of those on the on the table here that we've picked up many many years after they were shed yeah yeah and you could tell that he was he was trying to tell me that this was a two day old show he said I had picked I saw this book two days before I found this shut red flag well I immediately immediately knew that was alive John's got a Spider Sense did you say something no I didn't why not he was already that would have been like what do you mean it's like clearly glossy like what's the deal with this thing I just didn't say anything he had it colored like it was brown like it was a fresh drop but you could see the weather checking underneath the big time weird I don't know I just thought well mention whatever blows up your skirt man he wants to help me he's got a world record [ __ ] his where he's hunting that's fine so anyway if you if this Buck would they had a matching side that would have been 196 and then if it would have had a 20 inch spread that would have been 216 world record final answers to 14. yeah okay the [ __ ] Mitch supposedly shot was also 216 30 and a half inch inside spread so immediately you know things like that raise a flag because I've scored so many beers yeah he's lying to it it's obviously a red flag yes from ranches and uh I just kept that in the back of my mind and I'm like Mitch had the state record in Michigan 182 12 point and now it I could mentally say he's trying to go for a world record somehow you know because this Buck obviously would be a new world record aside and it's going to be there next year so nothing happened the next year and then like three years later he kills this 216 14 points now initially I was giving him the benefit of the Dallas because I knew one of the guys that actually handled the rack and said the rack was real and it was that a seven by seven John is what you're saying was a seven by seven correct so he did like a rake on each side so he didn't use the five point that you had seen several years ago oh no no it was totally different totally different really wide 30 and a half inches the other one if it would have had a matching side would have been about a 20 inch in size okay okay but that's two world record Bucks from Grand Traverse County which is all sandy soil for sure you're hard-pressed to see a buck in that county that's over 150 inches in the record is that Travis is that Traverse City area yes brand yeah Grand Traverse County so you're up there I'm sorry you're up there North no he's way up in the northeast corner of the state it's all sand over there I mean no minerals in the soil um you know I think the top buck in that state or in that area where the bow is 150 inches wow over all the history of Michigan okay so now he's supposedly found the shed of a world record potential world record [ __ ] now he's supposedly killed the world record [ __ ] well when he got the state record buck which he killed in 1982 there wasn't really any scrutiny that went with that it just got thrown in record you know it's just a state state record and back then you know they weren't critiquing everything like they do now now they stick a microscope up your ass and want to know everything about it so so they wanted to to confirm this they wanted to x-ray the animals and he refused to x-ray the antlers so when you X-ray antlers that can tell you if there's any if the antlers have been altered sure not pure bone because there were differences in the X-ray of the bone yeah he refused to do that everything he did thereafter was a negative to that you're being real and I've talked to world class Tax Service they can alter antlers while they're on the deer sure and you would never ever know it we just had antlers by Klaus to uh fix a shed for us who is a world-class you know taxidermist and and you would never know the difference you would never think that yeah he does like all of the uh Kings of bucks and Bass Pro all this stuff you see like he does all of them he makes all the replicas but that's that's something you're aware yeah so you're aware you know and obviously that's in my personal opinion that's exactly what happened is he had these antlers altered and he did not think he was going to get a microscope up his yin yang to get it entered as a world you know a world record uh so anyway then this is way way deep that's all right there was a guy that had killed 196 inch buck in Jackson County Michigan Craig Calderon was his name okay and that was going to go in and be the new state record buck this is before this is before that big one yeah this was in the early 90s so that was going to be the new state record typical with both 196 inches so Mitch didn't like that too awful much well it come to find out Greg galdrone had several poaching and not really poaching but violations for shining after midnight with a high-powered rifle so he had that buck taken out of the record book now Mitch's is the state record again so by the time Mitch showed everybody this big wide butt Craig Calderon had bought this little trailer and he was taking it around to all of these shows the Ohio Deer Expo Michigan Deer Expo and he had bought the rights to the Milo Hanson Club so in this trailer he had his 196 inch Buck he had the Milo Hanson replica in there and it was he was charged I don't know two or five bucks to go through this trailer at these shows and he had a bunch of big antlers in there for people to see and the and the current world record box well because Mitch wouldn't get his antlers x-rayed and he also from what I understand and I don't have a solid proof of this but these Cape got spoiled all the meat got spoiled so they couldn't do any DNA testing because they can do DNA testing and tell if that buck was from that area he would not do that that's like and then but he kept saying you know I've got the world record buff even though it was not legitimately entered as the world record but because you wouldn't go through the steps to do so so Greg galderone because he was charging people to see the world record buck he told Pratt or he told Mitch you know I'm gonna sue you if you keep telling everybody you got the world record buck because I'm I'm monetarily profiting off of the Milo Hanson buck as the legitimate world record so [ __ ] actually signed some paperwork that he would never enter his buck as long as the Calderon you know had that deal with Milo hansenberg and and the first Year Mitch shot that bucket the ATA show his pictures were everywhere you know he shot it in the fall that next January that next January so later his pictures were all over that show everybody was excited we got a new world record both kill typical and then once all this other stuff happened and he wouldn't get it entered he wouldn't get it scored he wouldn't x-ray the antlers uh the next year the only guy that had Mitch's picture at the ATA show was Kevin Craig Now Kevin cray owned Hogs Unlimited which was synthetic sense familiar with that yep and Sons things that we see no I think Hogs unlimited eventually became Buck feather fever synthetics it might be I don't know I know it was Hogs unlimited but Kevin was kind of a shady character too he ended up going to jail after Mitch wouldn't do all this entering and stuff and then Greg Calderon was going to sue him and he signed this paperwork and Mitch lost all of his credibility so in the next five years he killed four bucks in Michigan all 25 and a half inch to 28 and a half inch inside spread what oh you guys you heard me 25 and a half inch inside spread was the narrowest 28 and a half inch was the white this is Mitch killing them yes and keep in mind the one that he shot is what he was claiming as the record was 30 and a half inches so I'm talking to Tira O'Brien which is a female d-i-r-a she's dead now but she was the scoring chairman for CBM I was talking to her on the phone you know multiple years after this whole Buck thing has kind of been put to bed and I said well I was talking to her on the phone about something and uh we got on the Mitch thing and she said oh yeah I believe that was the you know legitimate and stuff and I said you do realize he's killed four more bucks since then that were 25 and a half inch spread or bigger she said yeah yeah I'm aware of that I said do you know how rare a 20 inch inside spread Buck is and she said yeah they're kind of rare I said are you on your computer and she said yes this I mean just like I'm talking to you guys are you on your computer and she said yeah I said uh can you look up how long would it take you to find out how many Bucks in Michigan gun ball pickups whatever have been entered into the Michigan record book for all time that are over 25 inches and she looked it up took her like 10 seconds and it was eight eight bucks all time in Michigan gun bow and Pickups okay how many are over 26 inch inside spread four and then I said how many were over 27 inches I spread zero so you're telling me that in a county that's not known for big bucks because it's such sandy soil that there's a bow hunter that has killed four bucks plus that 30 and a half inch inside spread buck so basically five bucks that were over 25 and a half inch inside spread over this many years with a bow and there hasn't been any entered during the old history of C CBM that are over 27 and a half inch I think there was two or three that were over 27 inches crazy never been one entered over 27 inches so then it kind of got she started thinking about it yeah that is kind of strange I said yeah you're talking six or seven years killing five bucks between 25 and a half and 30 and a half inches how is Mitch like I mean obviously after the first one Mission alive I don't know is Mitch still alive John yeah he's still alive you know what's he doing is he like I have no idea probably still killing 30 inch wide bucks no no I I I never hear about his humping anymore well I mean it's a very knowledge the seminars with them he he seemed more into social behavior than actual hunting skill sets and I he's from Missouri and when he was 14 I think he was 14 years old he'd kill a Missouri state record but I think he had family that had an enclosure so if you're asking me I I would bet my house and my life that that was definitely not say your wife or your life my my wife you know what's so crazy about that is is like you said if for you know before that buck happened you would yeah maybe Mitch was a strange bird but you would have known him as like you know a decent Hunter an authority I mean obviously nobody questioned the 12 point which now probably should be in question um and then after that that giant and all the controversy around it what would drive somebody to then try to pull it over four more times basically while he wasn't trying to pull it over four more times he was just trying to earn his Michigan credibility back in my life yeah so he wasn't he wasn't showing those fear to anybody other than people in Michigan that were with CBM and scores and stuff I I think he was extremely embarrassed about the whole big life yeah oh and and when he showed me that first shut out of that lock box and it was all weather checked and it would have been a new world record I immediately knew Hmm this guy's going yeah I just met Mitch was he's just a different he had been arrested for some other stuff we worked for the Post Office and those posts names yeah you know and a lot of this stuff uh voters some of this is second-hand information but I've seen pictures of some of the 25 and a half and 26 and a half inch boxy shot after the big one yeah and also when when you look at that picture of that buck the big one I mean to me those brow times are way well yeah it doesn't look it doesn't look natural I mean that that's the thing that anybody that sees the Metro on pull up Buck looks at and just says I mean it it just it doesn't look natural like I mean I've seen people have seen pictures of Milo Hanson's Buck if you've ever seen it in real life like the replica and stuff it is a giant that that that Milo Hanson Buck is a giant there's a reason that it has stood to test the time since what early 90s was when he killed that John I mean so you're talking 30 plus years you know there's a reason that that has stood the test of time is that it is a ginormous Mainframe 10 point about as clean as you could possibly get with a huge frame huge yeah he's just another Milo Anthem was just a guy that was just another guy you know Mitch was a guy that was always wanting you know credibility yeah he's always wanting to further his credibility in the in the country as far as the Deer Hunter he had it in Michigan for years and years and now I think he wanted to step up to that next level and he was willing to do whatever and people still do it I mean it wasn't too long ago that um spook span killed that buck in in Kansas and took it and said he claimed it in Tennessee as a Tennessee state record um you know and I'm sure there's other guys that have well we just talked about the guy who killed it in the hyphens in Indiana and tried to pass it off and I mean and that's a laciac violation right that's a federal law a break in in those cases when you're moving those deer across state lines and but it it's just um again I think it goes back to that inner competition or that comp like to that point I mean that's a that's a disease to that point to to feel like you have to go and do these things to prove your worth in a community it it it's uh you're hunting for the wrong reasons Yeah well yeah there are quite a few a few of those guys just like we talk about you know TV personalities that have gotten you know maybe they did love hunting at one point in time but they got distracted by it's a business for them and that you know they have to produce I think in the same way guys can get caught up in in the scorebook side of things where they're like well I just you know I get my my fulfillment my my notoriety you know from being in the book for having killed a certain deer and if they can find a way to I think people do that now I mean look look at many of these shows whether it's tv YouTube whatever how many people say well killed this six-year-old Buck now that's a three-year-old like clearly like you know or I killed this 155. no that deer is not an inch over 140. you know and and without anybody laying the hands on it to actually verify because these guys aren't submitting them to the books or anything like it just and and that we've talked about the quality assurance checking content even even though I don't think everything was accurate that came on hunting TV back in the day the fact was is there was still a quality assurance check when it hit the network with YouTube and anybody being able to upload there's misinformation delivered every day in The Hunting Community yeah here's a good picture of a seven-year-old Buck uh what no that there's three clearly or younger you know and it and for in and I don't know if the guys say it because they want to convince you they're they're hunting this like Majestic seven-year-old Buck or if they do it because they frankly just don't know they want it to be the case is what it is and it's bad because yeah you know deer hunting is such an egotistical activity yeah it is super it drives your hunting or your ego now there's a lot of hunters in the country that are not ego driven and they kill nice bucks and they keep it to themselves they don't say squat to anybody um I I definitely have an eagle on the deer hunting side um but I try to educate Hunters I'm not out there trying to brag about what I've killed I try to educate Hunter to make them better honors um so you know I can remember we've got a magazine here called Woods of water and there was a guy on the cover I think it was two years after we had pulling collusion crossbow and he was a scorer he was a CBM score and he shot 182 inch Buck typical and he had it on the cover of Woods and Water it was going to be the new state record uh crossbow kill because obviously we hadn't even had a crossbow category until two years prior and so his pictures on the cover and he had one other buck with a ball is like 117 inches in the honorable mention part of CBM and come to find out he shot that but in an enclosure with a Muzzleloader holy the guy that owned the enclosure actually called the president of commemorative bucks of Michigan and said you know what I own this enclosure enclosures get a bad rap all the time and I don't like it but the guy that's on the cover of that magazine that said he put that buck in the CBM he shot that in my enclosure with a Muzzleloader I have a picture of him with that buck and I have pictures of that buck in my enclosure so I know the president of CBM was John Neville and he actually had to go and kick the guy out of the book and go to his house and he had to write a disclaimer just like I want to have a disclaimer to everything I said about Mitch or Kevin right um some of that maybe second hand information most of it's personal information I know 100 to be true um just so I don't get sued though I want to lay a disclaimer too fast well yeah I mean you know and again it goes back to that satisfaction like the fact that these guys are doing that kind of stuff it is an empty void that you will never feel was was satisfaction right if if we go out there yeah we shoot a four-year-old brother we shoot a high pressured public land Whitetail like there is a satisfaction we fill and we get to feel every year it's a great feeling these guys have a void that will never ever be tamed it just it just won't and that's why they do these things that are that are so wrong and they know it it's just they can't help themselves they're trying to figure out how to how to change their their feeling in their life and and it won't work it's a short time more Prestige you know yeah crazy I think uh no no we have to go all the way down this route but you touched on it there briefly and Jeremy and I've been talking a lot about like um trying to get to the root of inherently like what drives us to try to kill the biggest oldest highest scoring like most sought after animal whatever it is you know deer or or fish like dude I just think it's like Primal like it's in our DNA like you know oh without a doubt you know I think back just to ancient civilization like for us just early Americans they were Native Americans you know not that I you know was there for this but I can't imagine because I know how I feel dude when they went and killed Buffalo or whatever whatever they were hunting they came back and it was like they you know the best warrior killed the biggest one and they wanted to show it off and they want you know they wanted the notoriety that came from that and dude there's definitely something you know Primal or it's it's in our DNA as human yeah I want to say men but maybe it's women too but there also was an ideal an ideal uh ideology there of like sustainability in that like the Native Americans needed to hunt for food but they knew that they couldn't abuse a resource right when when frankly the white men showed up they abused the resource and that's why most things were extirpated in in the United States from a wildlife side and so those Native Americans knew that they if they harvested that biggest oldest more mature male in the buffalo herd or whatever there were younger ones that would then grow to fill that void you're saying I came from the Native Americans yes I don't know if that's well and you're talking when when the America I mean when the white people came in and they started this building stuff that was called Market content yeah they killed everything there was no man yeah I guess yeah they were just killing to sell to make money for profit it's funny and uh reference for that is like movies and yeah I don't know yeah but then that's one thing that when hunting eggs started happening in the late 1800s and they were trying to get rid of that stigma of Market hunting because Market hunting was just total greed she didn't care if they totally eliminated a species it was all about money that was their living yeah so then when hunting started and they named it sport hunting you know that created as the years went on and you get into the anti-honors of PETA the word sport hunting kind of labels it as like basketball or baseball you're doing it for fun right and killing never be labeled as a sport you know they should to call it ethical hunting or something like that because you know killing animals is not a sport it's an activity but it should never be labeled as a sport to be interfered with right by people that don't Hunt is something like it's basketball or football or something like that yeah so Market hunting they they that went right to sport hunting to people that were just hunting for leisure and for food and for fun um and I'm gonna send you guys an article I wrote if you promise me you'll read it okay sure party intense but it's about that whole situation that we are talking about right now yeah no I think it'd be a great one and I guess it or read it out loud I bring I bring yeah I bring that up because there is a um there again there's a lot of verticals in here we obviously hit on the guy who intensely manages his property we hit on the guy who really hunts for the challenge in a past podcast we talked about um you know unfortunately a lot of Outfitters in the Whitetail Community I wouldn't say are necessarily Market hunting but they're damn close to it right I mean most money out of the resources they are maximizing a property in a resource it's a business for them but they for sure are are over hunting a herd you know they're abusing it and or you know at least taking such Extreme Measures on it that it could damage that herd long term um you know and so you see these buckets out there and and this is why people say all the time well we don't want to be divisive about hunting listen it's not anybody or any person saying anything to be divisive it's the fact that naturally we are divided as Hunters everybody does it for a different reason everybody kind of looks at it for a different purpose um and and you until you come to that realization you're not going to come to the terms of the fact that as a group of hunters we are divided it's just we are we'll we'll never be unified we will never be unified well and that doesn't mean that we can't be unified on certain grounds on yeah if it comes to issues that would threaten all of our our ability to absolutely there are things okay and it's very in-depth and yeah if you want to read it or is it more more or less in depth than the ascent lock what more or less in depth in the set lock instructions um it's less it's probably three or four pages I'm gonna send you that the short version well on the cell lock documents when I send that all you need to read is is document one and two I sent 13 documents and some pictures and activated carbon with uh molecule bonded to it but the rest of this stuff I don't you know to say just do this and you don't have to pay attention away you have to understand the technology sure you know people spend five six hundred bucks for Sigma which is way overpriced a year for what it is it's nice stuff way overpriced it has zero technology whatsoever yeah what I said yeah we just bought a ton of it we get a discount through Whitetail properties so we were just looking for an upgrade in apparel I just don't understand how people can buy so much super high price gear that has zero technology other than obviously windproof waterproof you know maybe it has some you know uh anti-microbial interior which it's not touching yourself I mean for mine for my stuff it's mainly I I want it to fit well I want it to be comfortable I want it to keep me dry if you want a quality garment you want quality of apparel yep that's what I pay irregardless of scent technology any technology other than that yeah I I just it blows my mind that people don't take advantage of the scent technology that just that boggles my mind it's a belief issue 100 I mean if people believed yeah despite your best efforts to convince them I you know I realize you're fighting a good fight all you gotta do is try it and do it right I think I believe I think a lot of people are just like well I can't I can't possibly be true and so they just kind of um what's the word they uh just like dismiss it to dismiss it well and you know unfortunately because I mean we wore scent lock for many years um and unfortunately some of the garments that we got from just they don't fit right like this was years ago this is years ago yeah my my crotch was at my knees like I I can't it doesn't not in a good way yeah their stuff is better now and I would guarantee is your new suit out John is it like available for sale in fact the pants just came out I think Monday they got or Tuesday but anyway that's that's another story but uh to me if you're not there's lots of people that have had sound like and they didn't use if you don't use it properly if you don't if you don't uh desorb it properly if you don't care for it properly if you don't store it properly and if you don't use it properly with other stuff in conjunction with it it's not going to work right so you know people that have used it in the past and it didn't work I totally 100 understand that because they didn't do it properly John they didn't do everything you needed to do I'm assuming you've got a fairly intimate knowledge of how the technology and scent Lock Works is that something that's fairly easily applied to another garment is it something that's proprietary to scentlock like could somebody else make that technology no they have the US patent on nobody else can use it without paying them a royalty okay and the patent is on the activated carbon activated carbon yeah okay correct interesting and they have not done a very good job of telling people how to properly well frankly they you know they battled sent blocker until eventually they acquired send blocker you know that that battle lasted and probably drained a lot of resources I'd have to imagine um well some block or once that blocker came out sunlock came out in 92 sun blocker is owned by Robinson Industries which also owns scent Shield which is this phrase yep and when they came out with some block or they used activated carbon with scent lock owning the patent on it well after a couple years they sell oxena May cease and desist order they refuse to do that so it's not a lot of equipment before they won that in a court and they paid them a lot of money for all the suits they had sold up to that point and then sent block or actually license uh they were paying something like around 800 Grand to a million dollars a year from royalties to use activated carbon double between your legs five years they decided to go to something different so they went to this man-made stuff which had some absorption capacity but it was nothing is that when they ran they push like the anti-microbial type stuff it was Trinity I remember yeah I remember Trinity technology yeah yeah and so then they they just once they went to Trinity it just wasn't effective and they started losing business and finally they ended up selling the scent lock so now it's not blocker uses the same exact activated carbon liner that's some lock used for years but it's not lock clothing uses activated carbon plus treated carbon plus zeolite got it so that patent blocks the patent will expire at some point right 20 years usually 20 plus depends on using just activated carbon has expired but the patent on using carbon alloy with treated carbon and zeolite does not okay and I was saying yeah I mean again I think it's um it's one of those things that I think people just fail to realize or frankly you know they just ignore like they just don't they'll pay attention to it and and you know wear whatever their buddies are wearing I don't know well I I think it has a lot to do with uh social media I think yeah social media has guys on there that say it doesn't work because they've never done it effectively properly and I think Hunters typically tend to be pretty lazy and they're like well if I just not like he does in a plaid shirt and blue jeans and a pair of sneakers and he's killing big bucks I can do that and then they don't kill it because they're not under the same type of property so they just they still follow the guy because they like him or whoever it may be and they just do that same method even though they're not killing anything because they're not hunting in the same types of properties here I mean I could remember doing a podcast in the name of oh the lone wolf guy Andre dequisto yeah and you know he had shot 580 inches on his property 800 acres in Iowa I think it was 800 something like that and it came up that well he doesn't pay attention to Cent well it's the same deal as the Don Higgins you know if you're on the property all the time you're the only guy hunting 800 acres and you're growing these deer and you're out there and they they smell your odor or they you know they're never getting shot at until they get to be that 180 inches yeah you don't have to pay attention to scent control you know just like the TV guys so look how many guys on TV shoot monster bucks with no set control whatsoever but for guys that are working hard and hunting pressured areas where every little detail matters and helps your kill percentages over your lifespan of funding I just don't understand not using it it can't but it is it can't help either John that you've got you know essentially every you know hundreds probably of different products in the hunting industry claiming to eliminate sound the ozone one was the one that I think fooled most people yeah yeah they bought into it everybody bought into it hard and then when you finally learn about ozone and you're like wait a minute I can't even breathe this stuff in without it like damaging me if it's at the right levels to destroy sand or cover whatever it does it you quickly realize like there's no way I can plug this thing in my truck and like survive I thought that was the craziest thing ever that was like you're right you know I would watch it we joked about it I won't name names but I would watch people like using it in the Blind and thinking their face was gonna half melt off or something Bill winky I thought he was gonna fall like he's like man Bill's been looking awful dreary since that uh he's been taking a lot of naps in the Rednecks ever since that ozonic sponsorship yeah but that was one and I mean I think we can all say that that's kind of faded off now right I mean uh yes and no there are still guys that are bought in but I don't think it's nearly as because I think sent uh what the hell is saying Crusher has sold to faradyne recently okay well and see that's a gray area one because it's like and I haven't I'm not a doctor I've done the research but like I enough people have basically filled me in on the fact that like there is uh there is uh some validity to Ozone technology they'll use it to like sterilize surgery equipment and like it absolutely it kills bacteria that's all but it has to be at a level that literally you can't breathe in or it's going to damage well and so that's why like the scentcrusher approach you know stero you know treating your clothes and your gear with that makes sense like I can see that working but I agree but an in the field application where it's supposed to a shower is supposed to cover your scent cone is like just unreal and people swear by it and I have to believe it's it's just um I've used it it's like a smell me I don't know if it's a false confidence or or um 100 of those yeah they're just it's like a placebo effect yeah like they they have it in place and if they don't they'll screw up a deer hunt because they don't have it in place because mentally they think that everything is going to go wrong 100 percent yeah ozone is interesting they sent me free ozone six machines when that first came out yeah and did yeah oh it ozone definitely works it definitely kills bacteria no doubt about it but it also leaves a foreign owner yeah sure it was only for an order so when you have one over your head and you're out west I'm or you're hunting TV and micromanaged properties you're accepted a lot of things they accept that man oh man you use that real high profile TV Guide that I know he was sponsored by ozone and he shot I know 70 80 Pope and young Buck's out of state on his TV show and he owns 80 acres up here in Everett Michigan and he said the first time he used it in his property and he said every year and a half and two and a half year old Buck came in from school because it's a foreign yes so let's say in terms of like uh if if ozone is not eliminating scent altogether it must be some kind of odor you know we're saying it's it's foreign because it's and I would agree it's produced by a machine it's a foreign smell um the alternative would be okay if you're not gonna eliminate smell completely like something that I've done is I I'll just like bass in like my my parents have a big wood burning stove outside that heats their home I'll just smoke it up like I'm wafting my clothes in her I get as smokey as I possibly can and I know that obviously has a smell I I can smell it but I think that it's not a foreign odor I think there's you know in the fall time there's fires all the time them deers you know smell campfires they smell you know wood burning stoves and so I would prefer and you and I are gonna disagree on this junk because like I don't think I can completely eliminate my my human scent I just I haven't been able to do it um so I would rather have not an unforen smell like the smell of smoke covering up you know cover sense not A New Concept I mean I I've had a lot of luck with smoking out that's definitely going to be better than having human order without without question and debatably ozone owners can be better than ozone because that's a foreign smell as opposed to an iPhone okay yeah I think ozone works great for like uh treating your yeah if you like if I wasn't wearing scent lock I would have no problem because I would never use Zozo nine myself great for putting the kids to bed you know settles them right yeah they just started getting real groggy yeah for treating your clothing because the ozone odor does dissipate after a while and it does eliminate all the human odor that was in it so but still if you're wearing permeable clothing as soon as you step out yeah as soon as you get your clothes on it's gonna your human odors you're emitting you're going to be met through the permeable Fabric and gonna be out into the open and it's another thing I wanted to mention because um you know you talk about all these different scent things I think sprays are the same way sodium bicarbonate is something you can definitely smell and then where I hunt in Michigan uh every little detail matters so if I'm using I I quit using sprays years ago because they would I think I got winded because I had spray on my clothing what's in there are they all they're all a sodium bicarbonate you said only one that's not would be dead downwind they use an enzyme but I think that also has sodium bicarbonate in it as well which is nothing more than baking soda put it in your refrigerator to absorb odors out of your refrigerator so it does have some older consortment capacity but it has an odor as well and that as far as antimicrobials because you get a lot of clothing manufacturers keep in mind I'm a rough I know all this stuff about clothing when you put an antimicrobial in an exterior jacket on the interior of your exterior jacket it's not touching your skin for an anti-microbial to work it has to touch your skin and come in contact with the bacteria to kill it and it's like you have ants in your house spraying the outside your house to fill the ends inside it doesn't work that way yeah so antimicrobial is in a base garment or having silver or gold like sun blocker does on their base garments see silver is a natural antimicrobial and you can wash your bazillion times and it's still going to kill bacteria antimicrobial treatments or a treatment and when you wash your clothes a few times that treatment is gone what was that was that Under Armor who was the anti-microbial push on it yeah it was yeah and so I think there's been a lot of other clothing well it's a lot of them doing on base Gardens continue on continue on with your sprays because do those are a big question mark for me that's one where people are like does it work or not I have no idea I get the biggest laugh out of watching a TV guy get out of this truck go to the back and pick up a truck put on his clothes and then Spritz down a spray like that's gonna work you notice they always still pay attention to wind direction yeah yeah always yeah sprays definitely 100 guaranteed do not work at eliminating your motor no way no way sodium bicarbonate has a very minimal amount of older uh absorbent capacity and also when you're spraying it on as soon as it dries a lot of that the actual sodium bicarbonate is going to you know just flop off the soup especially when you walk through vegetation I think that the probably the two main uses that I've still like I clung to I don't know it's one of those things where it's like in my my heart like I know it doesn't work but I'm like oh it's like man if I don't do it I don't know it's like my boots and my hat like the inside of my hat and like the outside of my boots just being like I don't know those are the things that I don't know seemed right to spray well your boots are I mean your boots are waterproof while I spray the extra well it's not human odor it would be just other odor like if they've come in contact with my truck or you know that's the thought I I guess I never I never thought about spray as you know having to correlate specifically with human scent as much as just any scent yeah well I I always view anything is a foreign order is negative to me so my boots I I never wear my regular honey boots you know in anything other than a hunting scenario so I don't really worry about the exterior and when I buy a pair of new boots I don't wear a hunting for two years I let the exteriors well and so I didn't let them air out for a couple years and tell me I'm a lazy Hunter because I probably deserve it you know so that's fine oh I'm not gonna tell you that well but so and I'll just be honest with you here so like you know I started out pretty strong first couple hunts out of the year it's like you know I dress outside the truck I try to you know but you know end of October early November starts rolling around I'm like okay I'm gonna rip over like it's I'm I'm riding in the truck and I know full well like I've went to the gym and sweat on my car seat you know what I'm saying like I know it's but I know I know I know it's bad man I know and and I definitely take the wind into account for that reason a hundred percent yeah I'm way more regimented than that I had ice my guns all the time sir are you traveling to your hunting spot and street clothes basically John and then yes and I assume you wash your street clothes too uh no I know you son of a [ __ ] I got you there well once I put on my sunlock exterior I'm not worried about it you're you're welcome you're keeping it captured in inside of those garments John that's everything underneath is irrelevant got it before you go out in the mornings I do not in the evening because I do in the mornings I just get out of bed and go on I'm gonna put on my street clothes because I don't hunt by my house right where I'm going slide between the seats into the back uh put on my scent lock gloves I take off my pants and shirt and then I put on my sun a lot of gloves and then handle everything with myself gloves on what I'm putting on my scent lock yeah it's not lock pack in my boots and stuff and then I just open the side door and go well I mean I do take it serious it's funny because like is it stored in a scent lock bag everything is stored in airtight containers including my undergarments and all my rain where everything is in airtight container everything even my underwear So when you say airtight containers you're talking like uh like a plastic tote or is it something specialized it's a plastic tote okay vacuum sealed Rubber seal on it it's not like the sterilites and all that kind of stuff yeah Walmart grade books it's the actual 40 50 Plano makes them 100 specialty make some yep we have some of those and Iris make some do you ever have any issues when you come back from a hunt let's say you're hunting and it rains and your garments are wet what's the process there because you're not probably throwing them right in the tote what are you might put them in a plastic bag the plastic bags in the back and then when I get all my frying I don't wash myself because the carbon is activated via the heat cycle right correct yes okay that's what D absorbs the it's not reactivated you can't reactivate the carbon in a celexu okay and reactivating means you bring it back it's pristine State when it was originally which is not possible yeah yeah it's 1450 degrees plus Fahrenheit under pressure yeah so all the drier does is it deabsorbs it it removes the majority of the molecules off the carbon pores and then over time you know those molecules that it doesn't you know deabsorbed from over about an eight to ten year period it gets to the point where it's kind of compromised got it but every time you deabsorb it it gets rid of a ton of those molecules it opens the pores up so it can absorb more no no no no no no I feel like John's gonna be disappointed when we're drinking coffee and eating Casey's breakfast pizza and our hunting suits before we go out check our Ozonics it'll be fine I have no problem with that no it's I think I really cut out his pungent food you know like garlics and onions because I permeate that oh yeah yeah coming out of my body I think it's just the thought of um you know how easily a scent regimen can go wrong oh very I think I would say that most people listening at this don't have as good as scent regimen as they think I don't yeah I know it well because it's like you know I'll first of all we don't we don't know we think we know it works but it's so influenced by marketing or our our ex perceived experience and so like for me at this point I I watched at the beginning of the Season at a bare minimum I wash everything possible like so for this elephant I washed my sleeping bag my towels my pillowcase anything that I'm gonna be you know having a lot on contact with and obviously my clothes and my pack you know everything fabric that I can fit into the washer I I do that um but inevitably you know on the elk hunt I'll be in contact with a with a horse and you know we're not be able to shower like morning and night like as often as you would be and when it comes to deer hunting it's like man whether I get on the e-bike and the seat has some scent or I get in my truck and that obviously you know it's it's so easily tainted and it's just like it can be overwhelming to try to keep up with John are you concerned at all what okay I'm sorry well I was just gonna say the process of being sent free is all in the it's just like hunting all of your hunting revolves around how well you are prepared how well you've prepped your location so well you're scouted if you've done all that correctly you're probably going to kill something if you're on the area where you got a couple nice bucks um scent control is the same deal it's all in how well you keep your clothing prepared once the my vehicle stops I slide between the seats take off my pants take off my shirt put on my base garments throw on my jacket throw on my pants grab my backpack out of the tear tight tote grab my bow and I'm out the door I'll be out of the door I 100 guarantee quicker than either one of you if we park behind each other at the same moment so it's all in the preparation stage it has nothing to do with once you get to your spot how long it takes you to prepare to go walk into the field maybe last question here on the sun stuff what do you do with like I don't have to say orifices on your face nose mouth that's all covered with a head cover to drop out Facebook 40 percent of your odor comes out of your head so you have that's what that's the thing most sunlight guys don't do is they don't put their head cover on I'm not talking about ball cap like you guys have because now you got air sticking out yeah yeah you know a huge monitor out of your hair I know oh you gotta have your nose covered your mouth covered your ears covered back your hair to your neck you know it tucks down into in here so you got a face covering the only thing you expose is your eye and then when you go to take a shot with a release you just you know reach up and pull it down under your chin and then pull backs without the camper your Anchor Point and so it's not you know it's not like a filtering mask it's literally you're trying to contain oh yeah it's got carbon in it it's yeah okay the mask you're wearing is a it's not like head cover with it and it's got a drop down face mask so it covers everything except your beauty little eyes John are you concerned uh I guess past the scent piece uh at all with UV the electric Electro radial yeah you've heard of this you know what the heck yeah I've heard I don't know much about it I the guys that used it though they got wind you know they trained a lot guys and they just wanted to try it just so they could tell us when they speak about it and they got winded with that well it's not I don't think it has anything to do with scent it's it's like what hex and I correct me if I'm wrong I thought it had to do it no no no no it has to do with like the electro magnetic electromagnetic fields of people yeah yeah nothing to do with wind which I guess could be their out well he got winded not detected so uh so what's the what's its function to not pay attention they think so I think they're marketing and I don't I think they're still in business but basically it's like have you ever you ever know when a big buck just knows you're there you know even if he's upwind that's your electromagnetic field like you're putting off an energy that the hex garments are claimed to be able to like contain yeah well I apologize because I thought it was something to do with something the guy said I they still get they you got winded when they used it yeah as far as the electromagnetic field I would would absolutely zero into that yeah I don't know I I I I I I've never seen that you react to my electromagnetic field yeah I mean I think it's uh it's a stretch Pizza the UV and deer Vision has been one that I've always kind of paid attention to because you know if you ever take a black light to a hunting garment there's certain ones that are very dull there's other ones that light up like the Fourth of July and yeah yeah and most suits are made out of polyester anymore very few were made out of cotton yeah yeah and so that was that was a big one that came out and was kind of like whoa you know how do you do that oh yeah because that's when I don't know who's who makes the sport wash you know just a little white bottles yeah yeah yeah let's go yeah because that was one where you know those guys I don't know necessarily were marketing to us as Hunters but became very popular for that UV deterrent type detergent it's that product has always like because the packaging is so terrible like it just looks like it looks like such a b product but it's hilarious like how much you know and again I just word of mouth I don't know how much that actually works like I do know that UV is but like you know whether it actually does something or not I don't know I mean I I when I when I shot Lee yep in the in the actual room and boy if a guy walked in there with a cotton t-shirt he he glowed yeah yeah that would be washing if he had washed it quite a few times yeah interesting doesn't came to that oh my God always learning something new for Mr Eberhart you know it's just the way we are just young I've been in the rag industry for years yeah well you've seen it man and it's evolved and you know the unfortunate thing is there are plenty of gimmicks out there um you know and and ultimately everybody's gonna find something that they feel secure in or comfortable in or or believe in and you know I think that that confidence you know often will you you'll you know success results tenderloins as your uncle that's when it has a lot to do with it what you have confidence and means a lot yeah I tell John my uncle's uh little adage sir I don't remember if he did if I did not get out of guilty it's my uncle who you would really get along with my uncle well you guys have a lot of similar ways that you think about things he says a little bit of baking soda to the arson groin will often yield the tenderloin that'll do it you know something to live oh my god I've been watching these commercials on TV now where this woman is actually talking about putting stuff up her butt crack dude wow he's like it's these high number ones late at night I don't get it five five five five oh man well listen John we appreciate you coming on and and getting you before the season we look forward to kind of how the season goes for you and hopefully we'll be able to grab you at some point later this fall and kind of recap what you saw and keep educating us on it it's always it's always a true pleasure man to have you on we really feel I feel lucky to bring you in and share share your wisdom with us and um you know just to share passionate talks with somebody else who really enjoys bow hunting you know at a core level is you know something that we always just find ourselves attracted to so can I throw a plug in there about my saddle Hunters do it yeah absolutely uh price point wise with 20 discount there's a it's online only and the uh 20 discount is s-a-d-d-l-e 20. Saddle 20. that'll get you a 20 discounts and that's 159 per jacket for the pan and the jacket is you know I designed it's got 100 grams of insulin in the body 80 grams in the arms it's got a polyurethane membrane so it's windproof they're overlapped and sold so it's damn near waterproof it's got a 180 uh fleece exterior a 180 police interior so it's not an overly bulky suit and basically I want that 180 fleece exterior to mask the noise of the polyurethane it's got a really short collar damn you're no collar in the front but it goes up under your ears it's three inches tall in the back the black wind it's got a shirt tail him in the back which is I think I started that whole design on shirttail hands back 2005 when I designed a River's West garment uh and it's designed for saddle Hunters so the pockets on the jacket are up higher so you can get into them because Pockets regular slash pockets on a regular jacket or low enough where you can't get into them when you're in your saddle right saddle tank covers them a little bit and then on the pants the pants have built-in knee pads well the jacket also has a slot in the back so a regular Hunter can use it harness the pants have built-in knee pads it has a rise in the back of the pant to help overlap that back so you don't get any wind up in there and it has a quick draw on the front where you just grab a tag in a quick adjust on the front so you just zip your pants up pull on that and it's tight so you don't have to have a belt it does have belt loops uh does not have pink pockets in the rear because when you're in a saddle you don't have any use of the rear pockets it's got leg Pockets Pockets up at the top and then it has a two-way zipper so you can zip it from the bottom up or the top down on your fly and and it's designed for Rod face hunting you know 60 plus percent of the Bucks entered in the PNY book and I've done that research for 20 years or shot during the rut business so rough base hunts in the Midwest and in the Northeast typically you're looking at you know 20 to 40 degree weather 45 maybe and so that's what this suit is designed for it's designed for rut-based hunting but it's not bulky most suits you get for cold weather they're just super bulky and I like to layer underneath stuff on an Agony basis and not overheat on my entries so it's uh it's very well designed and again it has a carbon alloy liner so it's uh you know got all the sun protection is that um or so they're buying that directly from scentlock.com right now right got it perfect go get yourself yeah and and tether's still carrying the Eberhart signature saddle they are there you go yes yeah so is there two two stops if you're listening to this and I've got one of those I went back to tethers and I bought all the uh what they call them alignments yeah yeah yeah lineman for each other you got the Carabiner and everything too uh well yeah what's the little gold guy that instead of a person I bought two of those I bought one for my my belt and also my um line I modified I think I modified this ESS for you guys you did we're not exactly yeah you may have pulled the restrictor plates off of ours yes it makes it easier to use yeah cool well awesome John well we appreciate it man if uh anybody's listening to this check out John's new suit at scentlock.com in the Eberhart saddle at uh tether.com and well I'm sure we'll be yanking on Mr eberhart's ear at some point this fall and pull them back in you started October 1st John is that opening day and are you you're you're a go at it opening day right I mean you're you're you're diving in oh yeah I did a speed tour yesterday I did I went to do the speed tour and put out some cameras and I ended up finding a about 18 Oaks and I'm back in the swamp of Marsh Grass and I I ended up going back my vehicle and getting stuff and prepping a new tree too you think that might be an opening day set for you uh um no because there's there's two guys that hunt this property and they walk the edge of the swamp on opening morning it just about to crack at daylight so if I hump back in the swamp they push everything Beyond me yeah because this is like 100 yards into the swamp they push everything back in farther upon it they're two times opening morning before both times they come through there with their bright ass headlamps and scoop everything back in yeah son of a [ __ ] if that's you I just did two videos on headlamps reflective markers and um I didn't I don't have much good to say about it I like it well cool John we appreciate it man and uh we'll catch up with you later this fall okay thank you good luck guys thanks sir all right bye-bye uh awesome John always good to have on we covered a lot yeah that was a long one if you're still listening to this it's like late in the game it's like three hours in oh yeah so um but no cool I mean some really critical points obviously I wanted to pull that Metron pull a piece out but uh I think his scent control I don't know it I'm not defeated on it it's just is a lot and frankly I know that I'm sloppy at it so John's a lot in a good way yeah the best way possible yeah well I think um I mean first of all and no knock on his age like I hope when I'm his age I have that fire still because that dude is just like we didn't even touch on it I don't think but you know his his shoulder issues are you know he's having to continually decrease weight like he's down to what 40 pounds 40 pounds on his bow um so it's all you crossbows which there is yeah yeah he's like it's possible it's a giant middle finger to it and said well he just you know he just loves it you know and so he's just trying to stretch it out as long as he can which I admire yeah it's it's um you know it's interesting to hear him and and John's just he's super confident in what he does you know and I'm sure you know I twitched a little bit as he talked about the egg and stuff but like you know it's just because he is very sure of what he does and how he does it and you know I'm sure there are some people out there that you know hunt very managed setups that if you drop them onto you know a piece of public that they wouldn't be able to you know kill themselves out of a wet paper bag well you know differing opinions even strong ones like John's and they are strong um you know it doesn't mean that they're bad guys you know you just you just if you see something a different way you know and you're adamant you've seen success maybe personally and like you know it can it can be natural to be like well F that guy like I'm not gonna listen to that I do love hearing him like he is purely uh 125 or bigger I don't care if it's a two-year-old I don't care if it's an eight-year-old 125 or bigger like and and I part of me appreciates that because it's a little simpler uh in that like you know the Age game is tough I mean how many times a day do you and I probably send pictures to each other and we're like three or four well it's a uh it's simpler it's a simpler way to look at it um you know you could make the argument also that it's a it's a less um like what would be the opposite of simple you know harder but in a good way like it's more Dynamic it's more thoughtful to consider the age of an animal and the potential it has to display over well and I think that's again a situational thing because he has to he can't think of age in a place like public where he can't control the age structure versus private Land Management which in some cases we can sure so he has to then say well that's what's the best I can do it's probably based on score now again I'm sure if he's hunting the same area and there's a two-year-old 125 and a four-year-old 125 I have to believe he shoots the four-year-old 125. I think he will Zero none whatsoever somebody told us I think he cares somewhat I don't I don't think he does man I think he's popping Young maybe it's uh-huh it's hard for us to get over because that age is so important to us and it it was not always important to me like I mean there was plenty of time where it was big big rack or points or whatever you know and then at some point it you know and maybe that's the management brain so if you only hunt public land maybe age means nothing to you it is it's cut it's the management but it's I'll be interested in hearing for people because I know there's a lot of people that just hunt publicly and listen to this like does age matter or are you literally trying to kill just a big buck right well and it's not as black and white as size is the only thing that matters it age is the only thing that matters uh the rod you know they both matter independently or you could make the argument that they do but I think for a lot of you know age-oriented guys it's because of their ability to produce inches of antler at a certain age class yeah it's an interesting thing because like part of me thinks it's attractive to think man if I just said I just want to kill a pope and Young Buck every year okay a lot of freaking deer man I'd be whacking and stacking I've passed so many three-year-olds it's sick I would be stacking and and I don't say that in an arrogant way I'm just there's a a lot of opportunities to kill PNY deer every year yeah and normally they're not not bragging we're just like not in the states and the spots to do it you know but normally it's because and I don't shoot them because they're three or younger right um and that's that Evolution to where I want to kill and and for me and I know we're the same but a little different on this like I really get a kick every year of of going after an individual yeah like when I find that buck that I want to kill it may be in one of the three states that I hunt like I am sick over that deer um and that's just kind of the way I like to hunt I probably miss a lot of opportunity these on other four-year-old bucks I could shoot but I just I don't know I kind of like that one-on-one battle a little bit I'm more of an opportunist dude I I feel so strongly about uh and and this is I don't know maybe just dumb uh like if I was faced with a situation where the best that I could do is is 125 like that's the the best that's the biggest baddest buck in the area at least well that's what I'm saying earlier I would go hunt somewhere that's right so like I'm I'm kind of situated he is I mean he's that's why he goes to Kansas yeah I'm kind of situated with that in Pennsylvania right now like I'm going to kill a Pennsylvania but I believe is in live somewhere else but my hunting would take price so like where that's possible the the places I have nine or ten cell cameras out in Pennsylvania right now I do not have a buck that I want to shoot on camera in Pennsylvania right now I do not I'm not saying that he won't show up I just don't have one at some point in September I'm gonna make the move to start going to find a buck that I will want to hunt um and and I'll do that for at least a little while until at some point I have to balance my efforts between trying to find a buck in Pennsylvania and hunting A Buck in Ohio or Kentucky that I want to kill um but I you know and I've got openly you know 1100 Acres of Pennsylvania ground to kill I don't have a buck on there that I want to shoot so I'm going to go to public probably and eventually we're hunting with Steve shirk up north which he's got bucks will kill I just don't know where or what we have no connection to it um but yeah I mean you just have to figure out what um what you want to do and I think that it all depends on what your expectations are but yeah I mean there's you know maybe if I want to kill buck in Pennsylvania this year I have to shoot a three-year-old I think uh let me clarify what I said on the 125 thing like it's not there's anything wrong with 125 inches at all you know I have done and I will in the future shoot mature bucks that are of that yeah score you know score yeah I think for me what's disappointing is like regardless of the location knowing that a two or three year old Buck is not showing its full potential that that to me is um takes away from the experience so even if the the oldest that a deer can get in an area is two or three if I go and kill him knowing that man that's the that's the biggest oldest buck in here it still is disappointing to me that that animal didn't get to show its maximum potential even knowing that he likely because you never know 100 but likely he wouldn't yeah and I think that's where the public land guys and and being a public land hunter for a long time like that was the first four-year-old Buck I killed on public land I was in Missouri um it you know being like I've I've had that fight of like uh why not shoot that three-year-old because there isn't a four-year-old I'm gonna kill that I've seen or that I know about you know and yes I'd like to get them to four but like he probably won't um so that's that's kind of the battle and I'm not I'm not saying that John or anybody is wrong like that's you hey you got to work with the hand that you've got dealt I just personally find it you know it doesn't uh like I I don't feel good about killing an animal knowing that that's tough man it's I don't know yeah I think it's I think it's also stages of the career um you know what have you harvested in the past like if you've never killed a buck over 120 then yeah you're gonna kill that 125 30 year old well and I feel like I've been there I've been there when guys have killed nice two-year-old deer and even three-year-old deer and I have there's no animosity towards the hunter like I don't I'm not like oh dude you ruined my opportunity there's there maybe at one time I felt that way but that was you know pretty immature of me at this point it's just I just feel it's a shame well you know I think that it's the uh not that the hunter should be ashamed no no it's a bummer for me that that that that deer didn't live to see his full potential see I would have to hear it in context more right because let's say a guy's been bow hunting for 10 years he's never killed a buck or killed a couple small bucks kills that two-year-old 120. I'm happy for him I think he's happy it can be both things there are people though who I think every year hunt and just kill one and two year olds one and two-year-olds and at some point maybe they're happy I just me personally how I am as a human I question why haven't you tried to do better yeah why haven't you tried to challenge yourself further less of our I mean I agree I agree with what you're saying I feel it's less of our place to judge why people hunt I mean that's what makes it yeah and I'm not that's why I said I have to understand it in context but I I it's just like if you complain to me even in context though I mean people are different like you know I mean there are people that just for that's what they want to do and that's I don't think it is though I think that they convince themselves they want to do that it's just like their job if they go to a job eight to four every day and they're miserable change and if you tell them you can't change you're not trying that that is the world we live in I understand you have to pay bills right but you can figure something else out you can you can look for another job you can attempt to get another job um ultimately if if you have if you're miserable at what you're doing or you're not happy or you're telling yourself this is the best you can ever do and you haven't challenged yourself that's a personal issue um you know and you you can you can fix that you can get out of that you can't change your life you can do better so I I question that in context if somebody is just wanting to kill a buck every year I don't think that they like to hunt as much as they think they do sure that's fair that's fair you know but there are guys out there that just you know it's it's priorities you know I mean you know some people have obligations responsibilities like that just they keep them out of the woods maybe maybe they have like you said in context maybe they haven't been able to get out in two years in a weird way I like hunting so much I don't want to shoot a buck first day because I don't want to be done no I understand that that's why we have other states to hunt like it's just uh again I'm not picking on anyone there it's just at some point if you kill a bunch of of um one and two-year-olds especially if there's the opportunity to do bigger and do better why haven't you have to ask yourself why haven't you challenged yourself to pass a two-year-old well the question is at the end of the year you know what is better because like it's not everybody's goal to kill a big buck I don't I don't think but everybody there's not a person listening to this thing that doesn't step into a tree stand or a blind and say in an imagine and daydream of a giant Buck coming out I don't know I mean yeah they might not be listening but they're out there you know and that's why they do it then you know me I don't know I don't think meets a legitimate answer I mean given I I I eat a lot of deer meat every year yeah um I don't think that there are or I won't say that there aren't any there are very few that hunt purely for a sustenance reason now yeah I mean I don't think it's a huge number but I definitely think they're out there not many I I think people I don't want to speak for her but like you know outdoor alley is one of those people yeah but she doesn't need to kill to survive well I'm not saying they need to kill them that's what I'm saying sustenance of like I want to kill to to like I can't afford groceries yeah preference over necessity is but that's kind of irrelevant here which is what like I would eat deer meat over beef most days I wouldn't see I would why uh I just like it I know where it comes from it's lean yeah okay I like that aspect but I don't need like I don't need to do I could go out and buy meat right but you're also a die-hard bowhunter trying to hunt mature boxes but I'm going to kill a doe or somebody if the kids don't kill a doe I will smack a doe early just so I have fresh deer meat yeah um well I know what I'm saying is there definitely are people out there that hunt once or twice a year for me because it's their preference that they have an organic food sort a hundred percent do you only hunt once or twice a year though if you're really wanting that meat I don't know that's my question if you get to meet in one or two hunts then yeah yeah yeah and I'm not saying don't challenge well but here here would be my counter that then don't shoot a one year old Buck shoot a doe yes but it's irrelevant to them oh you know they I see what you're saying it would be to our benefit that they would shoot a doe so that those bucks are left so that we can achieve our goal as well you're saying they shoot a buck to say I shot a buck first Brown down yeah whatever's legal whatever has adequate meaning see like I I've heard a lot of people say I shoot a buck just to say because I want to shoot a buck like I want to say that I killed a Bach yeah that happens too I'm sure a lot of layers man that's what I mean that's what I'm doing them out I'm going down the onion route at some point you guys will make me cry but you like that Nick that's pretty good that was good that was um all right uh we're done all right we're deep into this one 93 John Eberhart um it is almost October if you're listening to this or maybe it is October if you're listening this I don't know and it's hunting season so enjoy it regardless of why you hunt so yeah I brought everybody together at the end there still pretty warm inside it might make you cry yeah okay we'll see you next week later [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: HUNTR

Views: 235,548

Keywords: hunting podcast, deer hunting, john eberhart, bow hunting, whitetail deer, public land hunting, deer hunting videos, saddle hunting, the hunting public, land management, mature bucks, big bucks, hunting tips, early season hunting, hunting techniques, joe rogan hunting podcast, how to hunt the wind, deer and deer hunting, bow hunting deer, bow hunting tips, john eberhart hunting, john eberhart scent control, john eberhart saddle hunting, john eberhart podcast, giant deer

Id: rXAFt-l-o3c

Length: 157min 34sec (9454 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 27 2022