Wednesday Intrusive Thoughts: Volume 2

oh now we're live nice nice slide end Chris what's up workshop it is it is 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday April 29th as always we like to give a couple minutes for people to come on in and grab a seat grab some snacks at the bar they are free we have a great group with us tonight so I'm super excited in the meantime please please please say hello let us know where you're from and and we'd love to give you a shout out and then we're gonna get to questions pretty quick so we will start by just some intro and some information that we think might be helpful and then we are ready to answer questions so yeah let us know what your from see we have high justice on the stream she says hi Carol and Christian Ethan she doesn't like John apparently for us and the UK now somebody was asking what time in the UK would it be that now I don't know it's midnight in the UK right now midnight so Charlotte is eager to hear Carole speak so we will make sure we will let her talk down to twice Lindsey Robin says hi Carol I should have never had Carole on here like we're just invisible hi Charlotte Celine from Maryland hi Haley we love you Anna Smith from Virginia we got Lindsey from eastern Massachusetts Gwen it says hello Michelle Carroll our dear friend from New Orleans when Paul browning says greetings from Vancouver British Columbia hi Carol not sure if you remember I was a patient in your intrusive thought the OCD I in 2015 just not your hi Jeff Kaminski said no one likes John that is very true does I speak the truth should I speak the truth you can't and I'm curious about intrusive thoughts so it is two minutes went by like that so we will get rolling thank you all for being here this is intrusive thoughts vol 2 this is anything and ever regarding coping with and talking about intrusive thoughts on this stream nothing is off-limits we really want to dive in and discuss everything from sexual intrusive thoughts to violent thoughts taboo thoughts everything in between we've got an amazing guest with Manning panel which I will get to shortly so my name is Ethan Smith if you don't know me I'm the national ambassador for the International OCD foundation my feel I have OCD I like to talk about it that's pretty much good let me just read over this disclaimer real quick so the live stream is intended to serve as educational content and is not intended to replace therapy for treatment related questions please be sure to work with your local provider or contact a local clinician the international OCD foundation is not a crisis hotline and should not be used if you are in distress or feel unsafe if you are in a crisis or you're ever feeling suicidal or unsafe please go to your local emergency room call 9-1-1 or call the suicide prevention hotline and just I think we had that number in the overlays but it's eight hundred two seven three eight two five five and then as all we like to say be respectful be kind we try to create a safe and environment as possible to have some of these difficult conversations because this is focused on intrusive thoughts we know that the content may we discussed may be graphic so if you are a teenager or a young child or your parents with you I would consider that and watch with discretion and I think that covers everything so thank you thank you for being here I'm really to introduce our guests so we will start with the man in the top left corner john Hirschfeld MFP is the director of the OCD and anxiety center of Brenda Barton Greater Baltimore soon to be the director of the OCD and anxiety Center for Pratt congratulations John you offered we need to fix your your your bio because he's the author or co-author we're still not sure if you could read like that because then it goes list the title since then like author yeah yeah we don't know we but he wrote something with the mindfulness workbook for OCD everyday mindfulness group when a family member has OCD overcoming harm OCD and the forthcoming OCD workbook for teens he puts old bay on his eggs works out angrily to the New York Times daily podcast is very much looking forward to season three of I just pulled up your old one yeah there's an old bio because I'll see ya I finished Ozark and it was worth it was wonderful oh did you okay okay satisfy you John's next we have the incomparable and lovely Chrissy Hodges hi Chrissy Chrissy certified Pierson oh hi okay Chrissy's appear certified specialist their treatment for OCD consulting she's the chief operating officer and co-founder of peer recovery this PRS PRS was awarded the government contract to place peer support specialist in the entire state of Colorado civilian and forensic mental health institutions I add an entire state it just sounded bigger than just Colorado but it's cool either way thank you way to go way to go Christy is the author of pure OCD the invisible side of obsessive compulsive disorder and is an international advocate for mental health services business specifically for OCD she is the founder and executive director of the nonprofit OCD game-changers - which had an amazing conference in March to which John and I were both at and it was a really amazing experience so thank you Chrissy for being here thank you last but certainly not least out of hiding at the OCD Institute param heavy as a licensed psychologist has worked with OCD and related social disorders for 30 years so she's been practicing since she was three she has been working hospital for 15 years she loves working with the OCD population intrusive thoughts she has led the intrusive thoughts group the OCD I for approximately 14 years is her favorite group and in her small time she runs a small private practice and focuses on OCD and other anxiety disorders I was in her intrusive thoughts group in 2010 when I was at the OCD I as I'm sure many of people are watching so John Chrissy Carol thank you thank you thank you so much for joining us tonight thank you good night so as always before we get to questions I really want to open it up to - just some initial thoughts and and and keep it personal also John let's let's start with you I asked you earlier to just kind of weigh in on your take on intrusive thoughts or kovat or how it's related or what you're seeing your in your patients or what you're seeing with yourself so how is oh sorry okay yeah yeah opening opening to intrusive thoughts that's the line of work that we're in right I've been thinking about something I've been thinking about a lot today which is I guess not exclusive to intrusive thoughts on OCD but OCD in general and specific to kovat is how we get into trouble by training our attention to look at the small scary things at the risk of missing important elements of the large and important thing so for example with kovat I'm seeing a lot of clients who are you know very worried about a tiny detail like you know didn't the sleeve of my shirt touch the mailbox when I went outside and then later bump into my bookshelf and now I'm thinking do I need to disinfect my bookshelf and missing this sort of bigger picture of okay we're doing social distancing we're saying six feet apart wearing masks UPS and that's like 99% of what you need to do to stay safe but some of us are only focusing on that 1% of what if I make a mistake and I'm gonna be really humiliated ashamed if I get sick or get someone else sick and the real problem with that is it doesn't have anything to do with staying safe it has to do with focusing with how you train your attention because people often put themselves in less safe situations because they're not paying attention to the important things that focus on these little details so they're doing all sorts of you know worrying about whether or not the you know their fingernail maybe touch their wrist as they're removing their glove after you know getting gas at the gas station or something like that and while they're worrying about that they didn't notice that they put their finger in their eye to scratch an itch and I think we do this with intrusive thoughts as well where we have these sort of big-ticket morality items of both doing basically what I can to be a basically good person and you know I'm trying not to harm anyone and I'm sort of living a life that I think is more or less in line with my sexual identity or my gender identity or whatever it might be and then we get these what-if thoughts these intrusions of like that's all well and good but what if the thing that like is the least likely to be possible comes true you wouldn't be able to handle that and then we end up shifting our attention over to that and trying to solve that problem meanwhile forgetting to tend to the rest of our sense of self like who we are and so it gets very very confusing so I don't know really where I'm going with this but it's something that's been sort of coming up in a lot of my sessions today so it's been on my mind just this idea that we spend so much time worrying about that 1% and the problem with that is that you're training your attention to keep coming back to that instead of staying stationary on this 99 percent where actually we are in command of what we're doing we are in command of our behavior so that's my intro I guess for some people some people might say though that co vid is maybe more than 1% therefore they should be more hyper vigilant well know what I'm talking about is the the vigilance part is do social distancing do your civic duty don't flood the hospitals with sick people so you know only go out for essential reasons you know if you go out and you're touching things out there and wash your hands wear a mask you people wear a mask and stay with it you know what is it six feet from everybody there that you've done that so you've done 99% of what any human being could be expected to do at this stage to keep themselves safe does that guarantee you won't get covered no because there's that 1% where you know there's something that flew in at the you know on the wings of a fly through the screen of your apartment and somehow got in and and if you're gonna devote your attention to making sure that you're safe from that you have to take attention away from that other 99% that you're already doing a great job of so not only you're gonna become increasingly insecure of whether or not you're safe you're probably putting yourself in a situation where you're more likely to do something unsafe and put yourself at risk that's the is that clear it's great 100 percent yep absolutely it's great if you're just tuning out tuning in tuning us tuning us out but if you're just tuning in feel free to get your questions loaded in the comment box we will definitely be addressing questions in the next ten its I want to turn now to a wonderful advocate and one of my dearest friends Chrissie Hodges whose hair fortunately is here to deflect from my hair I can't go you know I have to make one hair joke smaller though that's fair it has gotten smaller so I love you Christy because you come from a peer support specialist angle but you also got experience and I think in many cases you have a real opportunity with the people that you sort of get down and dirty into the nuggets of what people are really dealing with and so like speak from your heart but also like what do you sing what do you what are you feeling what are some things that are coming up for people that maybe we aren't hearing about that we need to be talking about mm-hmm I thank you for having me on Ethan it's an honor to be here with three of you you know so I do peer support with people worldwide what one thing I definitely want to mention is that I'm certified so I've gone through the training supervision and I've gotten credentialed through my state in Colorado so it's important if someone is going to work with someone and support them in the capacity of a peer support that you do the proper training and you go through the avenues of being able to do it correctly so I do peer support and it's been a really it's been a few interesting waves of going on in what's happening with kovat and if you don't know we've been doing fireside chats over at OCD game-changers Ethan you've been on one John you've been on one Carole we'll have to get you on one apparently it takes everybody in the world like everybody in the world wants to see you so come on but either way um you know they've been it's been interesting to watch kind of the emotional roller coaster and waves that people who are coming on to the fireside chats are also mirroring the clients that I'm seeing whether that's clients that I've been seeing for a long time or those that are just reaching out right now for support from what first it was very much I see mostly individuals who are living with what we refer to as the pure OCD which is going to be intrusive thoughts with mental rituals is the nickname for the community if people experience that because of my youtube channel people find me I'm always talking about violent sexual thoughts and the gruntal and everything else you can talk about in regards to that so that's the community of people I'm typically supporting and at first it was very much this I don't care about coab in it I just want to know if I'm a pedophile or herbai me to murder my family like the eggs like who cares and then it kind of went into this oh wait this this is new reality this isn't just passing in the next couple weeks and then it moved into oh no isolation is bringing up a lot of intrusive thoughts maybe that I've had before or maybe that I've worked through or even bringing on new ones and now it seems in this in this past week I'm meeting with people and it's almost like full circle - Kovach relating somehow to intrusive thoughts and I think that the the brilliant and interesting thing that I feel so privileged to be able to work with people is that their experience is mirroring mine as someone who lives with OCD lives with intrusive thoughts I I feel lucky to be able to have the community of people who I'm supporting but also we just get to share our own experiences as we're going through this unprecedented time so I mean all I can say is this if my story is very much similar to most people's I struggled with with OCD for 12 years and had no idea because it was sexual orientation OCD fear vomiting scrupulosity suicide attempts you know hospitalization and then finally treatment because I was lucky enough to find someone that would do it in my states but so that's that is my story with it but what I want to say to anyone listening right now I consider myself to be in recovery 100% in recovery to me means managing OCD every day but I want you to know that whatever you're experiencing right now whether it be intrusive thoughts or or not or it's coming and going or whatever emotional response I am right there with you walking alongside with you because this is this is a greater area of uncertainty where as John was talking about like before it's just kind of like we hone in on little things that we're accepting uncertainty about and all of a sudden our entire world is uncertain and so I hear that umbrella you know OCD can go wild in all these different areas so my my hope tonight is that even in hearing anything that I say that you know that you're not alone that you know that people are right there with you whether that be emotional or symptoms of OCD for sure Chrissy and thank you like I totally agree with you actually like I'm starting to sort of feel all this this week last week I've sort of felt worn down and kind of really feeling some of that groundhog weirdness that's going on and struggling to like make sense of it and and and try not to make sense of it at the same time so I really resonate with you on that and so thank you because you're definitely not alone in this group okay Carol so here's the deal you're breaking the internet literally everybody's I can't believe Carol's on Facebook thought I'd never see the day I won't call everybody out because a couple people say you got you kicked them out of your intrusive thoughts group we don't know why they may have been too graphic we'll leave it alone you've got a massive fan base so I have to get to you before there's a riot so so Carol along the lines of what we've been talking about I mean what have you been saying what have you what what shifts have you been saying during this time from sort of the status quo and also if you want to talk a little bit about how Residential's change in how you're you know how you're maneuvering around that as well whatever you feel is applicable and um I see um the people who are on the unit in our census decreased a little bit so that we could accommodate the social distancing and requirements such as that but the people on the unit have continued to do their ARP work and I think that they have really worked hard at being very focused ironically you'd think they would be more anxious but I really see the people who are outpatient and still working or not working as the ones who are struggling more and the anxieties kicking up again there's so much more downtime there's there's all of a sudden your daily structure is totally discombobulated when you go to the grocery store is different when you go to the pharmacy is different how do you fill up gas now you have to wear a mask all of that stuff is very unsettling and it also continually is giving the message that the world is not a safe place which is not a great place to sit if you have OCD because that's what your brain keeps telling you the world isn't stapes the world isn't safe so and the other thing I keep hearing a lot about is people's pain I need to get anxious about Kovac because if I'm not anxious the anxiety is what helps me to be careful enough so I can't give up in other words I cannot give up my OCD right now because I need it so I can stay vigilant and keep my family safe and I reminds me what kind of what I was thinking about about just this idea that that focus on look you already have OCD and you're already being vigilant and now you're directing your attention away from the natural vigilance to this other kind of vigilance that actually is safe Wow also the shame that goes around with it so you're creating shame because you're not focusing your attention on kovat when a lot of people around you are yeah feeling guilty that they don't yeah absolutely yeah I'm just listening you guys are awesome Carol um I better ask you a follow-up because I might getting maimed by the hundred people that are you know you're seeing you on Facebook for the first time ever so so in regards to is there is there I'm trying to decide how to phrase this question but it okay I don't know in a way is being in residential in terms of OCD in this moment almost a safer place feeling to be because you're not out in the world with all this and then what are the anticipatory anxiety and the build-up to release and having to go out into all this and and and you know face sort of normally there's a lot of a particular anxiety in OCD just because you're transitioning back home where you may have additional triggers now you're transitioning into this unusual world that we're in now what are you saying I lost what you were asking because the pressure is so low I know I'm a windy god the first question was the safety of residential versus being outside this feels safer and and if all of the restrictions are not necessarily helpful for cultivating the culture of facing your fears so we had to add face masks so when people are on the unit they have to wear masks well on the one hand that's kind of uncomfortable and on the other hand maybe it's keeping you safe the hand washes we had to the the I'm pretty militant about how many hand washes people can usually have and now I have to accommodate what the CDC recommends so I do think and just because we cut down on that we eliminated the outings for right now people are basically staying right on the ground so I think it does feel safer they don't have to push themselves as much I think discharge brings a lot of anxiety how am I going to do all of these things when I get home I have to take out the garbage I have to make my own food I have to get my own food you know what do I do do I wipe down my groceries do I not like down my groceries there's a lot of things that they're trying to figure out yeah I mean go ahead John what that's Carol a question really curious about this I would imagine there are some people in residential who upon discharge are going to go home but their jobs aren't waiting for them the way they were because of the pandemic and there's maybe a lot of shame or guilt around that and so being in residential is like well it's functioning as a placeholder for I'm where I'm supposed to be because they can't work more residential so knowing that they when they then return to their homes they're gonna be expected to work but maybe they can't work when work has change or something like that that's it's a lot to take in at once yeah and usually when people are leaving us we're saying you have to do something outside the house 20 to 30 hours a week now for most people that isn't going to happen and the 20 to 30 hours a week whether it's volunteer or a job that's going to help them maintain their gains now they have to try and keep busy at home some of them are gonna go home to live alone some of them are going to go home to families who are also stressed I I think it'll be a challenging transition looking at a lot of self-compassion because to get out many of them are going to be thinking I'm not doing enough well before I didn't have to worry about that because I was in residential that's why I wasn't doing enough now I'm not done shovel and I'm expected to do more and I can't but I don't have that fallback of yeah but I'm in residential you know and I I find that the unit there is a cultural support you know when they're at home with their families if someone in the you know the family doesn't necessarily there aren't necessarily other people with OCD here they've got so many other people who have OCD and all they have to say is I'm having a terrible day and everybody else around them gets it immediately then when they go home they lose that even though you know they're all doing FaceTime and zoom and all sorts of things at home it still isn't the same yeah absolutely let's let's dive in Thank You Carol very much and thank you John we've got a bunch of questions here so I want to get to as many as possible hopefully all of them because I'm a perfectionist but uh so if you've got questions go ahead and ask we will get to them as quickly as possible the first question I actually want to throw out it at Krissi and of course John and Carol feel free to weigh in but Jess this is Charlotte Fullerton McDuffie at 7:08 p.m. sarah has a question about intrusive thoughts that may or may not be false memories how can you be sure they don't really happen and what do you do about them so I think this is specifically about you know false memories how to discern whether or not false memories or real-mode memories and how to cope with false memories well yikes so the easy answer is you'll never know live with the uncertainty you know this is I'm gonna I'm just gonna be honest here like false memory is one of those really tough topics that I've only done one video on my youtube channel about because I'm always so afraid that there's so many rabbit holes you can go to hang with them and I'm gonna say the wrong things and I'm gonna say all this stuff or get your good chronic girl to correct you so you're fine I don't want to assume yet though because I always get emails assuming so quickly let's define what a false memory is so people that are watching that may not know the term John yes what's actually the blog that I wrote on false memories consistently was the number one view blog on my website for a really long time right so people want to know about this because it's a very scary manifestation of OCD but the term false memories actually means a couple of different things so there's a technical term and maybe someone can correct me if I get this wrong but the technical term of false memories which is an actual thing which is a a memory that you have of an event that did not occur and there's various psychological experiments that can be run they can give people false memories through suggestion for example so so that that's what the technical term for false memories means but usually when people with OCD are worrying about false memories what they're really saying is I have a thought and I don't know if the thought is a memory of something that happened that I'm afraid of that would be really bad or if it's just one of my regular intrusive thoughts that I have all the time about something that could happen right so those people aren't actually having false memories they're having thoughts and they're having and they're struggling with uncertainty about is it a thought that is just one of these free-floating kind of words that pop in your head or is it a thought that coincides with actual recollection of an event that actually did occur some people take it a step further and get kind of meta with it where they think that the concern is what if I develop a false memory so I have an intrusive thought about having molested a child in a public restroom and I know it's my OCD and I'm thinking I should go back into the stall check and make sure there's no evidence the children there something like that and that's gonna come from me and they know I shouldn't do that I'm an OCD therapy and I should do the exposure is it maybe it happened maybe it didn't happen I should move forward and accept the uncertainty but what if I continue to ruminate on it and several hours later or days later I convince myself that it was a memory and now I haven't come back to check because of days have passed and now I'm really in a bad situation because even though I know I didn't I believe I did and you know that's basically where you're getting into sort of the pluperfect subjunctive of OCD where it's finding he's very clever pathways through semantics to get you to think that you're solving a problem that's not a problem a memory is a thought and a thought is a thought is a thought as a thought as a thought and so if you become too attached to what kind of thought it is just like if you get too attached is this is the okay thought they have or an OCD thought to have that's where the OCD really thrives that's where it gets its its lifeblood you know so that's yeah it can be very challenging to treat because the fear can be so intense and so reinforcing that in some ways doing exposure to it ends up being the compulsion that creates the new memory of is it a false memory and you could kind of get lost in the weeds with it nonetheless I say it's different it can be difficult to treat I don't mean to say that it's any less treatable than any other kind of OCD you just have to learn how to find the underlying fear and do exposure to what that actually is from an experience perspective of false memory and and often I can relate this to clients is in is the inability to recreate the emotion of the memory and so if I'm remembering something and that I'm remembering it I mean I want to remember the exact memory of how I felt and why I made these decisions and you can't do that if I'm visiting a memory from something when I was 15 years old I can't recreate what my intention was or what the feelings were or why considering I'm like are you okay also if she collapsed when you're talking she's just turning off the light in the other room well I agree with I'm sorry you have to go after what Chrissy said eventually you have to Sarah you have to go back to that leaning into you will never know if it's a false memory or not or if you actually something or not mhm and I know that usually with that people go yeah but what if I did something terrible and I need to go confess number one when you do go to the police station they will know in about 30 seconds that you have OCD when you try and confess but you have to sit with that you will never know because all of your trying to figure it out is just making the thought that you did something worse you hang out with tighter verses letting it go or you can go after it and say oh who cares what I did that makes a lot of sense I after all these years of advocacy I only recent only heard about false memories a couple years ago and it was like I never heard that term and I was like what's that I mean somebody explained it to me it really scared me because the visual it the visual I got was like OCD showing up with photographic evidence you know and that's and it was like one of OCD is tricky like yeah you think I got you now it's such a thought look proof your pictures everywhere pictures everywhere and I was like oh my god that's twice as scary so yeah but it speaks to an important point which is that memories are not events memories are thoughts memories are a kind of a combination of images and emotions that are held in a certain part of your brain that you associate with events that you know may or may not be true events and that's how a CD kind of gets on your skin but there's a big part of the confusion is this idea that the memories are photographic evidence and therefore you're supposed to treat them differently from other thoughts and and you know not to get you know to too lost in mindfulness world but I don't know that it's a fact that we should treat memories different from any other kind of thought because the memory doesn't make them especially so I can reckon remember what I had for for dinner or I can have a thought about what I'm gonna have for breakfast and that and there's no difference they're just that those are objects of attention arising in consciousness and I have to make a choice with each of them whether or not it's the best use of my attention right now and right now either those are particularly important I'm paying attention to you guys and that's that's what I need to do and the other important fact it Krissy well just really quickly I also you know Sarah if this house one of the things that I do when I'm struggling with any sort of false memory is I also try to pinpoint what emotion comes up when this trigger and this intrusive thought comes in so if I have a memory of something that happened when I was 21 years old is haunting me I can never get rid of it because some happen I also know that anytime I remember that memory I'm also going to have a really strong emotional reaction and I also know that that emotion can be tied into my compulsions and so in moving forward if I need to do some ERP about it I also include that emotion every time I have that memory I'm gonna have a spike in anxiety I'm gonna feel very sad because maybe I hurt someone and so then once I do I repeat with the actual emotion I can eat I can more easily experience that memory without feeling like the emotion is dragging me down the rabbit hole I know if that makes sense but that's just some way that it really helps me in in a kind of a little suggestion that helps people when they're dealing for this that's great and I think to bring it back around full circle back to your original first comment which is like despite what OCD throws despite the tricks despite it up in ante at the end of the day it's your mic draw comment which is just like embrace the uncertainty accept the uncertainty the the the ERP doesn't change just because OCD is whipping out new weapons and tools to scare us so to speak so I think it's important to come back around Charlotte who just asked that question by the way said someone is now obsessing over what John just said about the fly which is hilarious because apparently also threw someone into an existential crisis I think I'm just gonna turn them off sorry we aren't responsible for anything John does or says I do want to play my mind I've done it exactly so David hey David glad thank you for joining us I actually want to bring up I know you're asking a question I want to get to more intrusive thought questions but David at 7:12 p.m. I just think this is a great point which is one of my obsessions what was living and surviving a pandemic now that it has become a reality I realized that the obsession was far worse mentally than the actual pandemic any tips on helping the normal minded people navigate through uncertainty of Cova 19 he's basically asking you know can those of us with OCD that have had exposure response prevention and have a better tools and skill set of dealing with uncertainty what can we do to help those that don't but before we address that I really think it's important what David touches on which is this anticipate ory anxiety and thus fearing the things that haven't happened yet I read an interesting book years ago when I was undiagnosed and struggling and just looking for answers and it was actually a really good book had nothing to do with those tinea but it was on fear and how fear morphs and it made this interesting comment words said you know nobody with cancer is afraid of getting cancer right so everybody before they had cancer might have had a fear of getting cancer but once they had cancer they were no longer afraid of that anymore the fear shifted to something else so it's very interesting to know that you know most of the times what's in our head is far scarier than the actual reality of the situation is does anybody want to weigh in on that before we move to the second part of the question it's the reason people are so inhibited from accepting uncertainty I mean just like we're talking about false memories like what if they did some sort of terrible thing well the idea is I would never be able to cope with that like if it were to come true if this was a real memory and same as photographic evidence it's something that apparently I did was so terrible that I blacked it out and I can't remember it now it's being revealed to me and now it means on this terrible person I could never cope with a life where I didn't get that certainty that life where I had to consider that maybe I was a murderer and let me do exposure we're saying well let's see right let's practice coping with that let's practice living in a world where you don't have the answer and let's see if it's as bad as you say it is I mean it's not going to be a picnic not at first of course but is it really as bad as you thought it was gonna be and usually the brain kind of shuts off I mean I think that's what can be useful if it's done well with some forms of imaginal exposure where the OCD says well if you don't do the compulsion this things can happen is gonna be so bad and then with the purse so what the sufferer does is cuts the OCD off at that point since then I'll just do I'll just do the compulsion just just stop bothered me right but if we don't let them do that and we actually have the OCD talk itself out and tell the full story eventually it starts to kind of unravel and seem like well that seems like pretty intense but you know I've been through a lot of things in life I guess I'll get through that I don't really know we still rarely let the OCD finish its point because we get so scared that we won't be able to handle it so so I think a lot of what really inhibits people from accepting uncertainties this idea that they can't cope with it and exposure is is practicing that coping not with the event coming true but with the uncertainty not having the answer so so Chrissy David second question is any tips on how can we help people navigate to the uncertainty of Copa 19 my question to David actually is you know one is he just talking about anybody that struggling or - what we've been seeing a lot in our own communities and I'm experiencing myself are you know maybe what we need to do to live healthfully through this met live mentally healthfully to through this crisis may not be enough for people that may not have those see to you but want to wash their hands twice as long or they want to check clean off things a lot more than we would because we know that we need to still respect our OCD and ERP boundaries and so I know a lot of people have asked well how do I tell my parents that I'm doing what I need to do for me inside of the CDC guidelines but like I'm gonna stop at 20 seconds I'm not gonna do your minute you don't get it so I'm not quite sure where David's coming from in terms of helping other people navigate but do you have thoughts on maybe either people with or with it yeah but well I think that you know as soon as that question came up I have a lot of emotions and feelings about this this um this navigating cope it has been way more emotional for me than anything but I think that unfortunately in the community I have you know I feel so frustrated for OCD therapists we're in and for so long it's been very much this okay go lick that doorknob and it's gonna be all right whatever and now you're put in this position where you are actually having to do these these mechanisms that are you know I'm gonna do it keeping us safe I just had to do quotes but I did but anyways you know and so it's I think and then also Ethan I think the other part about this is what we are used to doing as individuals with OCD is challenging that status quo about whatever it is that's being intrusive and right now and in the last six weeks it has become increasingly difficult from the from the lens of shame from the lens of guilt from the lens of will I'm going to challenge this then I'm an absolute because I'm killing people you know what I mean and so it's it does that make sense it's it's this feeling of well I want to do what's correct of course by the WHO guidelines in CDC and whatever your state is telling you but at the same time I can't dive into the rabbit hole of being able to be to overcompensate for self because I have to think about my mental health and I have to think about where that's gonna lead me and so that presents again like kind of going back what we were talking about earlier just this this chain and this guilt about being someone with OCD in an environment now where everybody is engaging in behaviors that would make us worse Carolee that's the answer you were looking for but I just went down that way there's no it's audience Carol I see you thinking or writing or doing both just don't hit the light about okay what we're doing I hear what Chrissy's saying what I'm saying to people because like I'm getting a lot of pushback about yeah but we need to do what the CDC is telling us to do and I'll say okay do what the recommendations are but do no more do no less because your OCD we'll still get dissatisfied with that in some way shape or form and as far as like helping helping other people with the ko bid one is people are upset about how long is going to go on how bad is the gonna get how many people are gonna die when are they gonna get a vaccine is it going to be changed forever is it ever gonna go back to the way it was and again it's you really have to sit and marinate in this I know we don't know the experts don't know this is a new ballgame apparently at a ballgame last year according according to Facebook you know they show you your memories you know where you were the year before on that day oh yeah yeah and baseball game surrounding like 20,000 people watching the Orioles lose as usual and you know I wonder about that like when is it going to be normal to be in a setting like that will it be an eighth year will it be in five years will it be ever you know I really don't know I don't need to know but I'm admittedly curious and was trying to be mindful that curiosity because it's normal and I don't want to do the same thing where it's like well I shouldn't be thinking about that right now that's okay to think about it but I don't want to confuse myself into thinking that thinking about it will somehow affect the outcome exactly or thinking about it is going to hurry it a lot yeah mm-hmm hey that's a great point thank you so unfortunately when we get a lot of comments my screen shifts and I can't go backwards so I remember what I was gonna ask but just if you see a comment it was from a woman saying that she has a safe word I liked that question I may see it down before but it was something about a safe word and house does she let this safe word go if you happen to see that and can pull it up for afterwards that would be great but real quick Robert Benitez I don't see his question but he had two questions which I remember which was one Carol his first question was can his OCD he's a feedback loop that may be convincing him that he has depression and can his OCD convince him that he's depressed when he really is or isn't sure sure I actually yeah I've seen that before where they go they watch some some show about depression and then they go what if I have depression and I don't know it what if I have a substance abuse problem and I don't know it and then they start to check and look and start to look on the internet and then they're off you're running yeah or what if I convince myself that I'm depressed and that leads me to harm myself even though I wouldn't normally be depressed because I quite you know did these behaviors it's kind of like the false memory thing again yeah yeah yeah I just I mean and it works it you know I did I remember being eight years old and watching punky brewster I know that I'm dating myself but whatever but but in the episode she had a stomach pain on a right hand side and it ended up being appendicitis and I thought I had to pen Esaias for three years Thank You Punky Brewster oh I totally you know I relate to that and no way minimizing but I get it Robert also had a question I normally don't do two questions but this is an important thing and it was more of a statement but he said he's going to therapy but it's really hard because every day he comes home and he has new obsessions and new compulsions so let's go ahead and nip it in the bud about how you know OCD is can shift and you can come home with something new every day but the therapy is the therapy Chrissy you got words I can see him coming out your eyeballs well you know one of the things that always stuck with me when I did my therapist was dr. Stephen Thompson and one of the things that really stuck with me when I was in therapy and I our p therapy and I continue to see I continue to see this as I'm doing therapy through my recovery whenever I get spiked up with anything else is he always expressed that OCD will actually up the intensity of spikes as you are working through ERP so I translated that into my own recovery I can only speak for myself but I translated that into my cover e off recovery also as as I'm working through a specific theme I try to think about it as that part of the brain is trying to clean out all the corner is trying to turn over all the rocks trying to make sure that I am sure that this isn't a threat as I'm doing European telling my brains it's not a threat see I'm exposing myself to it it is going to actually be more intense and so I'm if let's say I'm I'm I'm struggling with sexual orientation OCD then you know that if I'm doing a RPG like three or four days later all of a sudden it's like am i transgender and then it's like oh wait but am I actually attracted to my mother or am i attracted to my female dog or whatever so it's just cleaning out the corners as I am fighting back yeah making sure that we are covering all grounds because it needs to make sure that if I think it's not a threat it's gonna throw everything that maybe - - so it doesn't fail at his job to keep me safe that's my that's my boss I think OCD can only play that game if we agree to a contract with the OCD that when it changes the words of the thoughts we're going to treat it like it's new thoughts if we if we disagree with that concept we can let go of the whole themes discussion and boil it down to one thing so it's not that I have 17 different obsessions it's they have seven different seventeen different ways of expressing the same obsession I mean it Chris you just you just gave multiple examples of one fear which is what if my assumed identity is not my real identity gay transgendered bad person murderer whatever it is their fear there is just what if I'm not really thinking and so it's just different manifestations of uncertainty it's all the same junk just with the ocean - using different words for the trying to figure out a way to get back in because you've evicted it and in what's back in mm-hmm so understanding that it will do that and then saying no I refuse to treat this like it's different my position is to look for how it's the same and the moment I can figure out how it's the same I'm going to treat it the same oh this is about me not really being who I think and well maybe I'm not but what's your breakfast so just to further hit this home because I think this is important Carol you know I just remember being at the OCD eye and you know I forgot who it was some less brilliant therapist than you because it wasn't you but you know they quickly said you know content fro city is relevant and they immediately described a tornado tornado is the OCD right and wherever the tornado goes it's gonna suck in a bunch of stuff cars cows houses whatever but really what it's sucking in is irrelevant it's still all the OCD can you just hit that home and clarify that a little bit more why why is the content relevant because the underlying mechanism is the thing there's it doesn't matter the I'm losing my train of thought so it's gonna be one thing and as soon as you come back down it's gonna be something else the content is irrelevant with intrusive gods like sexual and violent thoughts a lot of times people get wigged out and think they're worse because of the content of it but it's the same as contamination the thing that's fueling it is the same I like the tornado analogy too that's great oh it might have been yours yeah yeah it might it might have been yours definitely for sure and I think that I mean go ahead Chrissy I know you ever thought about this how could you tell because I know you go ahead my face is like I I do want to drive that home I also do from the surfers but perspective just want to throw something out there um and certainly we can even open discussion about this I would love to hear everybody's perspective on it but yes content when it comes to like the behavioral aspect of OCD a hundred percent irrelevant I've experienced probably any possible intrusive thought ever and have used ERP and have been able to get the same results I do what I would like to throw out there though that there is often and let's get away from the behavioral for a minute just this emotional experience that people have often when it comes to harm in pedophilia not that they are different and not that they're any worse or any harder to treat or any of that but there is just this added layer emotionally for people to go through in the healing and grieving process I think when it comes down to even if the core fear is I'm a bad person or sexual deviant or whatever we're dealing with but I just wanted to point that out because I have I I work with a lot of clients who go into ERP therapy and then and then getting kind of the emotional support piece of it say that they feel like the therapy is not addressing that underlying hardcore shame guilt embarrassment and just the really what kind of person what kind of like that kind of that belief of what kind of bad person would have paedophilia thoughts you know and for prolonged amount of times you know if someone's having it for like ten years and then they finally get diagnosed and they finally get treated I just wanted to bring that up and I would love to hear anyone's commentary I'm certainly not saying that those that they are different and they're they're not treatable because we all know that they are because it is behaviorally yes but just emotionally sometimes people feel left out from from the kind of added step of the grieving and the shame piece that they have to go through when it comes to really just some of those intrusive thoughts that kind of you know tap on that I am a horrible person for having these thoughts well yeah I want to know I definitely want to get Carol and Jon's thoughts I don't want to I want to get to questions definitely but it's definitely worth having this conversation about no no no no I'm I wouldn't have turned to you and said your thoughts if I didn't know what you were gonna say I knew exactly what you're gonna say but I think I think that and I want to turn to Carol because Carol has been running an intrusive group for 14 years but like the first thing I think of as well is that because a OCD is so misunderstood in the community and be then if it is understood to a certain extent most people only believe that its hand-washing contamination neatness and all that stuff so even the people that under intervene in the OCD community I mean in the media and mainstream community that even their understanding of OCD is really just the surface of they think it is and so therefore when they hear this other stuff they're just it's jit isn't talked about enough and because other people don't hear about it in the media there may be experiencing it thoughts that they don't talk about it enough so it's CC there's double secretive double shame double stigma and so forth and I think that's what Chris he's hitting on what what have you seen Carol sort of in the evolution of intrusive thoughts even from 14 years ago or 30 years ago in terms of like how secretive it was before how secret is is now the shame you know are people more open about an hour are we getting better without it i with it are we kind of staying in the same place I think for the person who is OCD they still are being quite secretive and and and not sharing with people because they think that their thoughts are different even if they've read John's book or Lee bear's book the IMP of the mind so maybe they know that there's sexual and violence obsessions but what they always say in group is but my thoughts are different than all of your thoughts so when at the start of the intrusive thoughts group every time they they have to write on the board what their interests have thought is that they're focusing on and then they have to go around and read it out loud and what what unfailingly happens is everyone's quite compassionate with everyone else's thoughts but then they say but my thought is different I could be a pedophile that person over there they wouldn't hurt a child in a million years and and so yes I think the world is getting more educated but I think the individual sufferers are still isolating themselves so John what is just a last follow-up to this question Chrissie my heart am i touching on what you wanted to sort of address yes yes okay cool cool I just appreciate the conversation around edges so we can open it up here so important so John content is irrelevant we've established that but obviously relationship to the content is different per person why is why is it in may up maybe I answered it but why is sexual violent intrusive thoughts why is a suffers relationship to that even more stigmatizing in a lot of ways more guilt driven more shameful than someone who is maybe just hand-washing or checking or or health anxiety not at all minimizing that's what I had I was miserable but why might there be a more shameful component uh a couple things come to mind first thing did you kind of just alluded to I don't think it's necessarily true that the hand washers and the lock checkers are feeling less shame than the people with pedophilia a themed OCD it depends on their personal cultural context you know what it means to them to have that problem this is a condition that highlights the worst thing that you can think and so the worst thing that I can think is different for the worst thing that you can think stiffeners that you would think it highlights the worst thing you could think as the thing you cannot accept uncertainty about you cannot accept uncertainty about a lot of things including coronavirus but you can't accept uncertainty about and there's your obsession and that's the battle right so it's irrelevant in the sense of the treatment is let's do exposure to that uncertainty where it becomes relevant and should be addressed in the treatment is how does that person navigate shame it is very normal to feel shame if you think you're a pedophile and you live in a culture where you know that word is used to describe people that we don't want in our society right so it's a natural reaction but it's part of the cultural narrative it's not that's not the part that's about your see that's a more personal thing about how do you deal with the fact that the content of your thoughts is the worst thing that you can think now the content of that person's thoughts is also first thing that they can think but you're my client so don't worry about them right now right so you do take some time to address that the shame is real and and needs to be brought into the into the room and and understood as a natural process is a natural reaction to thinking the worst thing that you can think you had suggest is something about you know stigma and how these things are talked about I think that definitely adds another layer to it I mean even in this this this group not with this panel but what we did last week right there was someone talking about their intrusive thoughts someone say oh well that's really weird you know you shouldn't have those kinds of thoughts that's not OCD someone who didn't really understand how hurtful they were being or if they did they're really not very nice people so so absolutely there's there's this added layer of when you hear other people's thoughts and you think whoa that's really messed up and I almost never see that in the OCD community it's the Carroll you're pointing at or you generally very compassionate towards other people with those but not towards ourselves the one thing I want to add to this too is that I think they should add terminal uniqueness to the criteria in the DSM for it for our diagnosing OCD right because it's a factor in every single person's OCD that there's something about this thing which I learned about by reading about other people who have this thing that I'm doing differently and it's without that uniqueness you wouldn't work so hard to solve the problem there's a caller that's OCD intrusive thoughts about knives and stabbing my baby oh yeah well yeah lots people have that okay I don't worry about it no no no but mine it's got like a little bit of a different thing to it which I really need to make sure that I get on top of this and then that's where the engine starts getting revved up this is worth all this attention because it's not like everybody else's OCD but that is a symptom of the OCD the uniqueness I can't man I can and I can relate to that a thousand times over especially like I think for people that have gone longer periods of time without getting diagnosed or getting treatment then that further supports my argument that my OCD is different from everybody else's because why is it taking me so long to get better and I know for a fact you know when I was at the OCD I and everywhere else and people were talking about the rocd that was my internal dialogue the whole time we have that's now my OCD my house needs completely different well all the time with everything I know and even within careless groups I remember people talking in like my OCD at that time and still is was self-harm OCD I was afraid that I was gonna accidentally kill myself variety through a variety of methods impulsively do it so my constant narrative in my head was well who cares if you're gonna molest a child I could die you're not gonna die I'm gonna die you'll get through it you cook death how can you all be so selfish what's worth until I met the person that was afraid of with the hell and then I was like nevermind that's worse yeah I totally relate to that uniqueness and that was definitely such a major barrier for me to get over to then be able to work my actual problem because before I just thought I would my OCD was so special that it deemed some sort of novel treatment that didn't exist and the uniqueness is also shame driven because if you were to drop that the moment the first therapist said no it's not unique it's just OCD you'd have to face a wall of shame over how much effort you put into something that you didn't need to do so we cling to our obsessions a little bit and treatments for fade sorry with it with the light we we cling to our obsessions a little bit afraid if we give them up too soon we have to admit how much time we lost that we're never gonna get back so the uniqueness holds the shame in that's so huge I want to thank everybody for listening as we had that conversation I think it was an important conversation to discuss now we'll call this the 30 minute lightning round well we were get to your questions and Spitfire answers to work our way through the next 45 minutes questions I'm excited hands on buzzers set fasten seat belts here we go 7:15 7:15 7:15 p.m. Rebecca Youngblood Potter says going to the grocery store is always a trigger of intrusive thoughts fear of running of out of food and my family not loving me anymore because I can't provide them the right food in normal circumstances I have been great since I've been great since kovat I haven't if I could take one of my teenage sons or my husband with me it'd be okay but my country isn't allowing that my husband has been doing all the shopping should i tackle this or continue to have him do all the shopping so so I will quickly say that the longer we avoid fear the bigger the fear becomes I think that's that's pretty much the gist of it so but I will throw this out to to Chrissy oh I I think that if it's in regards to living with OCD if it is something that you are having a behavioral reaction to compulsions it is something that you are fearing absolute we push into the uncertainty absolutely to start taking steps to do that you we're in these unprecedented times of Ovid we do have guidelines what we can and can't do that's the that is the great thing OCD doesn't have guidelines but the CDC does so as long as you're taking those precautions and if you really aren't up to challenging this absolutely do it and be precise in our fireside chat the other day we were talking about just being committed if it's okay I'm gonna do this one thing per day and I'm not going to do these compulsions during the Cova tour I'm gonna do them for X amount of time fine but make that decision beforehand find ways of pushing into the uncertainty because it doesn't matter what's going on in our world we still have to challenge OCD every single day because fear doesn't stop no matter whether all of the restaurants and everything around us does that's great advice bollocks John or Carole to that this is an opportunity she needs to go for the gusto worst possible case scenarios stick to somebody else in the car with her but leave him in the car she needs to go and find what is the worst thing that could happen and she gets groceries that somebody doesn't like she has the anxiety attacks he cries all stuff that she can live with that's a great exposure she has to do it absolutely that's excellent by the way guys go ahead John yeah yeah yeah just very very quickly there's a there's a deeper obsession embedded in the question she said that if she doesn't she can't provide for her family they did something like they won't continue to love her that was yeah the longer question yeah I think if that's the case this she should get a new family well basically if your family's gonna just drop you the moment you don't you don't provide for them then they don't that's not what family's about so I I actually would while I agree that that you could confront the grocery store obsession I think the larger obsession to confront is this idea that you'll be abandoned by the people who love you if you don't perform it's their love for you is not contingent on your perform that's great advice I urge everyone there's so many great comments that I want to make sure to get everybody's questions and so I'm not going to read them all but I please urge our panelists as well as as our viewers to read the comments because there's really really great insight and some people also Carol a few people are amazed that you're still drinking diet coke so so Carol is continuing to be a huge fan I'm excited that I that I that I thought of Carol because my street cred is going to go skyrocket after this I am so psyched I should have given this to just ahead of time at 7:21 p.m. Charlene Murray asks I hear a lot about act therapy which is acceptance commitment therapy and mindfulness skills accompanying ERP exposure response therapy as an effective approach to treating OCD and I am curious if any of you who experienced other approaches that have been helpful in treating OCD in addition to ERP curious if any of you have used internal family systems therapy as an approach to work with OCD symptoms I am familiar with acting and I can weigh in my own personal experience but I haven't heard internal family systems Jon or Carol do you want to touch on that at all what we do here is we do have a family track that goes along with the person has two behavioral therapists and they have a family therapist the focus of the family therapy is to help number one educate them about the OCD and and about family accommodation which is about how the family inadvertently helps the person to ritualized or to avoid it may be something overt like buying toiletries for the person or it could be waiting for them while they're continuing to ritualize in the house that's the focus of the family therapy I don't know any I don't know about internal family systems I but we do believe in having family therapy in addition to ERP so that the family can support you in a way that's helpful in the internal existence is a school of thought that that do you have sub personalities that interact with one another as a system like a family in your head and that you can use those interactions to better understand your circumstances and and affect some kind of insight and some kind of change I have heard of people using this to treat OCD but I don't know that there's any research that supports it it's not something I've ever done I do kind of going off what Carlos was talking about think that that not internal family systems but family systems concepts in general of a marriage and family therapists are import are an important part you know the the OCD is never a one-man project or one-woman project it always involves the people around you and how you interact with them and what they mean to you and what you mean to them and so bringing bringing people in to the equation and thinking systemically not just how does this compulsion what does this compulsion do to send a signal to my brain that I should stay immersed in the sphere but also how does this compulsion affect the way that I interact with my daughter and how does that affect her behavior which then affects how my wife behaves in fact that I behave so seeing the bigger more integrated picture can can be a very important part of the OCD treatment you know one person in a family is doing ERP they all have to be doing some kind of exposure to some kind of discomfort in order for that to work right and then quickly does just speak from my own personal experience I found acceptance commitment therapy and DBT dialectical behavioral therapy very very effective in my own treatment with OCD I will say that ERP is the gold standard benchmark it is the reason I stay well today and have been relapse free should I knock wood or no not not quit whatever will mow knock wood for for 10 years but I will say my own personal experience was I did 10 and a half months of ERP for five hours a day five days a week and I was having a trouble grasping and letting go and engaging in ERP because of 30 years of enabling and ritualizing and getting reassurance from people around me because we weren't in the right kind of treatment and so what acted for me was it changed my relationship to my thoughts and completely changed the way I viewed my thoughts and also DBT completely regulated my emotions where I would engage in an exposure and then the I was triggered I would fall on the floor in a puddle of tears I'm sure at some point Carol heard me screaming and went Oh Ethan again so so I think that I think that's from like an adjunct perspective I think Acton DBT were really crucial and then allowing opening sort of a window in my OCD to get the ERP in there and really really punch the OCD away so I found those extremely you know wonderful i junked of therapies to treatment but but not in replace of so John Smith at 7:23 p.m. can people without contamination OCD symptoms shift into contamination with all the germ news attention could this pandemic push people who were predisposed to OCD into full-blown OCD yeah Carol go ahead yes most people the old stats used to be 80% of people diagnosed with OCD would at some time in their life have contamination obsessions so most people will go through a stint with the hand-washing that's sad I agree with their concern I think many people who are subclinical meaning they might have some vulnerability or some family history of OCD that the kovat the stress of all of it may tip them into being symptomatic now the good thing is it will be newer or the obsessions about Kovan 19 will be newer and so it's that much more amenable I think to getting into treatment and getting help go John I don't know if I mean certainly someone could develop OCD like symptoms if they don't have the other predispositions I don't know if if it if it might just kind of settle back into the way you're predisposed after the pressures to be vigilant go away or if it develops in the full-blown issue that then requires additional treatment that's probably a vary from person to person in terms of whether someone who's sort of primarily obsessional in nature or doing mental rituals whether they could develop contamination OCD in my experience a significant portion of contamination OCD clients by which meaning the people who avoid and wash as their primary compulsions are really dealing with a form of moral scrupulous 'ti they're there they're washing because it would be immoral not to because they're pretty breaking some sort of morality roll rule and that's really just not that far off from the other kinds of interests of thoughts that that people have so I think it's very natural for it to extend to if I don't wash my hands it means that I'm okay with you know spreading covent and killing people mm-hmm and I mean just that just to chime in there I mean I I typically am going to deal with intrusive thoughts with mental rituals but I also have the fear vomiting and so even as you know you know two cases recently that said perfuse vomiting why would you even tell me that like especially while redlines it's fine what do you want anyway but with that you know i i've never considered myself to really have outward compulsions that most people would be able to visibly see or that could indicate that i have OCD but certainly contamination stuff comes into play when it has to do with if you're vomiting so and and so it totally interchanges from that and sexual violent interest of thoughts and then you know if I take a bite of chicken and it's raw in the middle then all of a sudden I'm washing my damn hands for the next four hours or resisting or messaging Ethan and having him make me laugh so it's not as bad exactly I will just tell you Carol your continued to love people want to call you on your office phone and see what happens just saying so like I didn't get to a question because you're such there's so many fans of you so real quick you know we don't need to bring this up Jess but Jennifer Vickery this just speaks to sort of what Chrissy began talking about and we kind of went off and had a conversation she said I'm seeing so many people without OCD going way beyond the suggested guidelines and I find what I am trying to not go sorry and I am sure and I find that when I am trying to not go beyond the guidelines I do feel shame and out about what I am doing as well as the fear of judgment from others that I'm not being careful yes that's what we were talking about brought that up the judgment piece too yeah and I think my was a great way to put it our next question just as 7:28 p.m. Gabby LSE Freelander Bowersox I think I got that right so and I'm gonna throw this out to Krissy actually how do you handle it because you're the shame expert so how do you handle the field how do you handle the feeling of shame when you spike especially when the obsessions aren't related to coronavirus and many of the life stresses pitched right life stressors people are facing like job loss etc aren't at play for me okay so are we specifically I don't see the question up there but are we specifically talking about covet are we talking about interests of us in general she's just saying how do you handle this how do you handle the feeling of shame when you spike and she's like what other people are stressing about Kovan I'm not nor my job or anything else I'm having other things and I'm feeling a lot of shame I guess a about that and being for not worrying about COBIT okay I I will answer I want to go ahead and address just the shame piece anyway when it comes to interest of thoughts I am you know I'm just a shame machine like I I feel like I wake up with it I feel like I do want it all the time and it is just a byproduct of of living with OCD since I was younger and the way that I have learned to manage it just to give you just kind of my experience here is I've also recognized that shame is just part of my journey with OCD so as I said before emotions can really they can they can accompany compulsions they can accompany spike so the blast intrusive thoughts I've hadn't been at about an injury which is a real event it's something that's real event but my OCD attached on to it and my life spun out of control for about a year and a half but one of the biggest driving factors of that was sadness and shame and so what I needed to do in my ERP is what I've had to do in the 30 years that I have lived with he has identified these heavy emotions that dragged me back down the rabbit hole shame being one of the biggest ones and I almost have to ERP those emotions before I even do the behavioral ERP for whatever the interest of thought is so one of the ways I do that is I flesh out that by doing imaginal exposures I flesh out though all the horrible emotions first before I even go into the content of my ERP so I can be like okay bring it on let's go let's feel shame let's feel sadness let's feel anger let's go all this and then I go into my ERP and that way I'm already there I'm already feeling it I'm already accepting it and living in the uncertainty of how horrible those emotions are and so when they show up I'm not even afraid of them anymore so it's basically for me just like ERP I just do it on the emotional side and that's really served me in a way of being able to identify that shame as part of my experience with OCD that is just the bottom line so I can either accept that and open the door and let it in and give it some coffee or I can wait for it to break down the door and drag me out screaming and I think look I think you know my automatic default is an OCD sufferer when I have a spike my brain automatically goes to what did you do wrong you're broken it's your fault it does every time it doesn't matter how many years I've been doing with the first five or six seconds of when I'm struggling or I what I call have an OCD attack or whatever that's what my brain says and then my skills kick in and the first thing you just have to remember is you're not your OCD it's a knotted decision it's a disease and remember that there will you remember your relationship to your OCD and and separate those two because I think that's where that stigmatization comes from and that spike in stigma and shame is really believing in self identifying with your OCD versus continuously reinforcing and recognizing that you are not in fact your OCD John oh there's one comment about the question because I think the questioner was getting it in part was a secondary emotion secondary emotions are trashed we don't need them scary guilt about shame it's it's some other emotions some some clinging on emotion kind of moonlighting as the important thing when it's not only the thing it needs to be addressed she's describing feeling shame but about half about her OCD stuff but then there's all these other people out there with like you know real problems that they're really worried about and I'm still stuck on my OCD stuff and I feel guilty about that I feel guilty about worrying about my stupid problems well there's people out there dying kovat it's guilt about having shame drop the guilt it's a distraction address the shame because this Christie was saying that's the work you have to do to stand up to your OCD and and these other emotions will come along like hey look look at me yeah look how angry you are about being sad no drop that just work on the sadness it's it's a skill that you can develop it's not easy but that's that's where I would focus that's a great point John you can never be a politician because you're really good at answering the questions like spot-on - honesty I know I know at 7:30 p.m. this Carroll I'm gonna throw this at you because it's a great question just you go ahead and put this up for Carol what is the difference between an intrusive thought and a ruminative thought because you can't stop a thought but then we were meant to stop a rumination because it's a compulsion I get confused by this I know it's definitely some target words in here you'll want to address it go for it ah man um this is the question for Jason Crump adjure from last week so he's the rumination King over here where we are so if you think about I think of ruminating as trying to figure something out or thinking about a thought over and over and over again in an effort to let it go and move on to something else so in a sense the interest of thought would be the obsession and the ruins have thought it's kind of like a in my opinion a mental ritual and so the intrusive thought you want to let it be there and the ruminants have thought you can talk back to it and say well I can think about it for the cows come home but that doesn't mean I'm going to be able to let it go that doesn't mean I'm going to be able to figure it out that's it yeah yeah absolutely so men do an add-on or Chrissy well also Carole like do we want to stop thoughts no no no no no no let the fight come in let it happen make fun of it move on we want to stop thought processes OCD is created in a sense because of the solution that someone is applying to the thought that frightens them their solution to a scary thought is to try to get rid of it or suppress or control it and push it away don't think about you know go back to don't think about being a pedophile the more you try to not think about being a pedophile it's like putting superglue on the thought and you're gonna think about it for hours and hours and hours so you want to let that thought come in let it be there kind of hang out with you and you go on and do the other things the thing you can combat is the meaning that you put on the thought oh that's terrible that I had that thought I almost liked what it was like to remind people with the word rumination means cuz I grew up in the country on a cow farm rumination is what cows do right they they eat the grass it goes in the woods they vomited up to it again in the effort in the hopes that they will then once they swallow that vomit be able to digest it and so rumination is doing exactly this it's vomiting up a thought for the purpose of further digesting it so that you can swallow it and hopefully keep it down then my advice is don't eat your own vomit sorry Christy I'm not strong a lot for you oh it's just the best way I can explain the futility of ready RP we don't stop thoughts but absolutely we stop thought processes we stopped working on our thoughts we stop trying to fix and chains and choose our thoughts and we stop letting our thoughts kind of take us away and try to stay in the present moment I'm so excited I was there for that thank you I love we have time and one more question I'm just I found one earlier for those of you kind of questions and I really appreciate it I actually may have may go back and try to get grab everybody's questions that we didn't answer and try to answer everyone's questions in a video maybe I'll grab everybody else and we'll come back I actually like this question so Rachel may at 8:16 p.m. says Christine Ethan now that you're out with your intrusive thoughts how do people in the general public react when you talk about having intrusive thoughts do they get it I think that's a great question not only from an advocate perspective but from a I suffer and struggle with intrusive thoughts perspectives so I love your thoughts Kristie yeah I thank you for asking this question and I just want to preface with I and I I experienced this too when I'm working with someone who's an ERP therapy and getting support people go all I want to do is help people I'll you know I am now through therapy I can get this under control let me go help people and then they're like wait I don't want to talk about my interest of thoughts out loud and I was the exact same way as soon as I got through effective treatment for OCD I wanted to scream and shout it to the skies and then it was just this shame and feeling of I don't want to tell anybody what if they don't believe me or what if you know I I'm so embarrassed and what if people don't understand OCD but 15 years later is when I finally started talking out loud about it and I will tell you Rachel that it is you know depending on your delivery of how you're talking about it because mental health is stigmatized however there are so many people out there that are struggling with my Ohio people are really open and grateful for people that start talking out about it once you hear the personal lived experience and you can people can relate to it and have empathy mean we're talking about one in four people who live with mental health struggles which means they're also supporting or know someone with mental health struggles when you put that story out there as scary as it is and as scary as it was for me I mean if you follow me on my youtube channel you know I just blasted out I didn't care but the reception that I got from people not only with OCD but other mental health challenges as well it's just that it's a worldview change it is I'm going to say this and I'll kind of close out my thoughts with this people who live with mental illness and people who work in the mental health sector we just have this different viewpoint we have this this deep level of empathy for those that struggle in the silence of mental health and so being able to be outspoken about it and share your experience it really you would be surprised at how many people could relate to that how it helps so much in your own healing but also how your story can really empower someone else and really can help save lives I mean Iacocca's Krissy I echo Chrissy's sentiments a thousand percent honestly you know I it helped me made sense out of my life 99% of the experiences have been amazing I wouldn't have bet any of these people without this and and also the insane community the amazing community that I've met I really don't have anything to add because I feel pretty much the exact same way as Chrissy and I will tell you that you know you also don't have to you can always come out in your own way there's no right or wrong way to do it you don't have to jump on YouTube and scream to the rooftops you know even just telling one other person I mean you know I always say we talk about this every week or every time I do a stream but you know everybody who asks a question or gives us a little insight into whether they're going through their advocating their telling their story and you if you read Rachel if you read a lot of the questions and a lot of the people people even the questions we didn't get to other people have responded with really really great answers and so nine times out of ten you'll find amazing support and community and I think I always said like I don't know I feel like I can see the matrix in life you know it's like you kind of have a perspective about life that maybe other people don't necessarily have and you know I don't think I would trade my experiences because I feel very blessed and lucky for the people that are in my life and what I get to do and to be to all of you and be on this journey together I think it's amazing so that's a great question Rachel I want to round out with some final thoughts John Hirschfeld oh ok so face final thoughts have never prepared for final thoughts this is like when when Stu asks us that what we're gonna put on our billboard I can never like always freeze me up so I think that I guess the only thing I want to say is that what I'm seeing that I think is and I'm just gonna be watching it carefully as I continue to to see people it's we've been in some version of lockdown for about six weeks now and the way people are handling it they're they're kind of their walls are starting to come up right so I'm seeing a lot of parents for like okay I've hit a wall this is the amount of time I can spend with my kids without a break or we're seeing couples you know hitting their walls you're seeing young people go like okay this this is the amount of video games I can play I'm kind of I need something else people are starting to get antsy now because you know I remember when this this started the day I left my office it was a scramble of like okay evil you know my clients that I'm gonna you know just do teletherapy for a week we'll see how this whole thing shakes out right now I haven't left this room since essentially and so I guess I'm just I just wanted to let people know that if you're feeling now like you've been handling it really well but soon you're not gonna be handling it well because you've reached your limits just just know that that seems to be the norm and so whatever you're experiencing whatever powerful feeling what you're starting to feel defeated or or you starting to worry again or you're starting to doubt your ability to get through this none of those are signs that you're doing something wrong this is just the next step in a process and it's probably a totally healthy normal way for your brain - sorry I guess we lost Ethan anyway it's a healthy normal way for your brain to start doing some recalculations like okay this is gonna go on for more than a week more than two weeks more than four weeks okay what six weeks so in that calculation process it's normal to see a lot of different kinds of symptoms mood symptoms OCD symptoms pop up that doesn't mean you're relapsing that doesn't mean you're failing in any way just just watch just keep stepping back and watching practice practice noticing this is where mindfulness is your your best skill set good luck out there so I'll just start since Ethan as it here to tell me to start since we're already in this order just to echo the mindfulness peace Jon thank you for bringing that up I hate even I'm just gonna go ahead by the way you know I just like John was saying you know this is this has been an interesting journey and as I stated when we first started talking just the waves of what we've been experiencing you know it was only like four or five days ago that I just felt really centered and excited and and connected to nature in my backyard or whatever and then the last two days I just felt this overwhelming fear of being depressed and not knowing if the world is going to to go back to what it was or not even knowing what it is and feeling really scared and the thing that really helps me is to continue to connect to this community and to know just like John was saying that just because I'm feeling like this today and just because I was feeling like this yesterday doesn't mean it's going to always feel that way and I think that that's what we struggle with OCD is that black and white if I'm feeling this way now that means it's never going to be this way again and operating in those extremes anyway is also dangerous for those of us with OCD but in general how can we or I so I can only speak for myself how can I practice mindfulness today and say today on the spectrum I'm way down here and that's okay and it doesn't say anything about me or my recovery or what I can bring to you today and in hopes that I can help you feel less alone or that I can walk alongside you you know even if we're both willing today and then tomorrow I might feel somewhere different on the spectrum so my final thoughts are wherever you're at it's okay because I guarantee you everyone on this panel and all the people that are here experiencing this with us right now are feeling the same way that you are now or have been in the last few weeks so give yourself some love some self compassion and just some grace as you're working through this unprecedented times that none of us know how to get through because we can and we are walking through this together Thank You Chrissy Carol did you get to speak what you get to speak okay Christy are saying it remember that you aren't alone just because you are stuck in your house does not mean that there aren't other people out there who understand what you're going through treatment providers are still meeting with people and picking up patients so I reached out and helped we'll be there Thank You Carol I think that I think that everybody you know made a great point I think that everybody's situation is unique to their own but at the end of the day there's this common humanity aspect which is we're all dealing with this bigger thing together and while our individual experiences may be different we can definitely all lean in each other and I think we have an amazing community to do that so our last of all or toward the end of this thing all I definitely want to thank John Chrissy and Carol for joining us I want to thank all of you for turning out we had another great great turnout I was gonna a Carol I know you're kind of you're kind of stuck in the basements of the OCD I but I just wanted to tell you know reading all of these comments you just have you've made such an impact on so many people I really was just like I remember Carol she did the truce of thoughts we should have her on but um but clearly like you've had this incredible impact on just thousands of people that all love you and just really appreciate all you've done all the good work you've done I'm gonna call that out because it's such a big compliment yeah and and if you ever feel down just go through the comments threads because everybody loves you they all take one of your coke and.and your furs in the back but notes sincerely um thank you for all the work you do thank you thank you for supporting those with intrusive thoughts and OCD and just giving of yourself the way you have you've made a definitive impact on on the community and we're very grateful for all the work that you've over the past 30 years so thank you Carol also thank you John and Chrissy some final thoughts if we didn't get to a question or you really want to ask your question you can always always always email the IO CDF below at info at i/o cdf org you can also email me at just ethan at i/o cdf org that email addresses in the comment threads and guess what i cut up on my emails today got no more zero in the inbox so Stephanie and france who gave me a lot of crap on saturday for not getting finger at you now that we've done responded to all of them so feel free to email me i'm not bitter about this at all um this some everybody knows i love them dearly i just have to get a little crap where I can just some super super quick announcements Friday at 1 p.m. on the IO CDF and YouTube Facebook pages as well as peace of mind we will be having a managing bf RBS group in the time of kovat we've been having related disordered groups all week we started with hoarding we have BDD today we will have bf Arby's on Friday and hopefully more continuing into the week so you'll definitely want to tune into that and then Saturday we will have our 2 p.m. townhall as usual this will be a special State of the Union town hall with the executive director Jeff Sherman ski board member lizmac and Bale and the president of the board Susan Boaz with lots and lots of updates and an announcements regarding the IO CDF and upcoming events as always I want hit the IO CDF I want to thank Jess behind the scenes for putting up the questions I again want to thank John Chrissy and Carole for joining us thank you for turning out being amazing advocates for yourselves we appreciate you we're grateful for you stay safe stay vigilant fill all the fields don't let a so city off the hook especially during this time as Carol said this is a great time to punch it in the mouth thank you we'll see you next time

Channel: International OCD Foundation

Views: 8,450

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Id: 9rUHc56CGbw

Length: 95min 30sec (5730 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 30 2020