(relaxed music) - Yeah, so we are here
at Raspberry Pi Trading to talk about the new Raspberry Pi 4, and the new accessories
that we released as well. So first, team, would you
like to introduce yourselves so everyone knows who you are? - My name's Eben, and I
run Raspberry Pi Trading. - I'm James, Chief Operating
Officer and hardware lead of Raspberry Pi Trading. - And I'm Gordon, I'm Software Engineering Director at Raspberry Pi. - Brilliant, excellent, well I guess, the first thing really to mention about the Rasberry Pi 4 is how early we got it. I don't think we were
planning to have it this year. - No, it was a bit of a surprise. So I think we were telling everyone 2020. I think we told everyone 2020
because we were expecting to have to do A0
silicon, B0 silicon, C0 silicon, C1, C2
silicon, roughly that. So three major spins, and
two minor spins on the end. That's what we did with 2835 a decade ago. That's pretty typical for a new, very new chip on a very new process. And as it turned out, the B0 was fine. So we're shipping the B0. Took a year out of the schedule. - Okay everyone's--
- Ta-dah. - Yay. (laughs) Excellent, so we thought what we would do, is take some of the more
commonly asked questions from social media since
the release of the product, and get you to answer them so everyone can find out a little bit more about why things were changed with the 4. What's new, what's different. So really, I guess the
first thing to talk about is the fact that there
are now two HDMI ports on the Raspberry Pi 4, so what was the choice to do dual HDMI, and
also why go to micro HDMI instead of the standard? - Hm, who's going to answer that one? - I think everyone's
leaning away from you James. - Yeah we are, well
actually, are we out of shot? Yeah, because we're doing our best. - Okay, I get to answer
it because this has made my life hell for a while,
mostly because we wanted to get two display outputs,
and there's obviously various connector
standards in terms of HDMI. There's mini, there's micro, and there's the standard big one. So we can't fit the big
one, two big ones on there. And we didn't want to grow the board. So to keep the form factor as close to the original as possible,
we chose micro HDMI, which has worked out very nicely I think. But, it has proved you
know, difficult to move to a new connector standard, just because it's a new manufacturer, and the connectors are more expensive. So we've worked really hard to actually get these things on here in the right cost point so we
can actually sell the board. - Yeah, and the I mean, one of the reasons for doing it as well was
because of thin clients quite often require two displays, not one display, so if
you're gonna sit in a bank and have a thin client,
then having two displays, one for you and one for your client is like a really common thing, and Raspberry Pi is used quite a lot-- - And digital signage as well. - Digital signage is very useful, yeah. - It's quite a big thing
that they're used for. - And also it makes us, like handle multiple displays properly,
which is one something up to now we've kind of, not really handled multiple displays. So we've had the ability
to have a DSI display and an HDMI at the same
time, and in our software we've kind of not really
handled them properly. And this has now enabled
us to do it properly so you can have two displays
set next to each other and you can move your applications
onto different displays and it all works seamlessly. - Excellent, brilliant, yeah so obviously that's not the only change, another thing that a lot of people have noticed is the USB and Ethernet's
in different places to the previous Pis, again why was that the decision to be made? And is everyone gonna move
away from James again? (laughing) - James, James hates case manufacturers. And he wants to spoil their lives. - Yes, yeah okay, so the answer is, on this cheap PCB tech,
the wires that go to the gigabit Ethernet PHY, which is the chip at the back of the, behind-- - James mispronounced the word
low cost there, incidentally. - Yeah.
- Low cost PCB technology.
- Low cost PCB technology. So yeah, the gigabit
Ethernet PHY is wired to the big silver Broadcom chip with the pins coming out of the top so you can't string all of
the high speed signals across onto the other side of the board without making the PCB more expensive. So that's really the reason. - It also nicely consolidates the position of the Ethernet jack and the PoE tap pins, just takes one more bit of
long wire out of the PCB. - Excellent, and then lastly,
I guess the other change to the board is your USB-C. - Yeah.
- Previous models have obviously used micro USB, this is the first one with USB-C. There were a lot of
people asking for USB-C prior to this coming
out, so I guess again, why was the decision
made to move up to USB-C? - More current, we wanted
to get a bit more current into the board, allows
you to get more current into the board to be
able to get more current out of the board, so we wanted more margin for powering high power
downstream USB devices like SSDs. We kind of reached the end
of the road with micro B which was the standard
we were using before. We were able to get up
to 2 1/2 amps there, able to get to three amps very comfortably with USB-C, it's got four V-bus pins, so you can, you're not moving
all of that current over a little tiny thin bit of metal. - Excellent, and obviously it's becoming more of a common household power supply. I know I've got a few. - It's getting there.
- Yeah. - It's getting there,
yeah there's been some fun with the USB-C of
course, there's a missing resistor on the board which means that if you have, as far as we can tell, it means you can power it
from a Mac Book charger, in practical terms, so there are, if you have a nice smart charger, you have a nice expensive USB-C cable, there is a chance that it
won't power your Raspberry Pi. But other than that,
we've been pretty happy with the transition. - The nice thing about the OTG, you also got the USB OTG wired
up to that connector as well. So it will, the old, what used
to be our old USB interface is still available through that port which means that actually
you can then plug it into a PC or a Mac or whatever,
and have it come up as a device, as a USB device
plugged into your computer. So for example, one of
the common uses of that is to pretend that the Raspberry
Pi is an Ethernet connector on your PC, and then you can
talk to your Raspberry Pi through the Ethernet from your computer. And therefore power it as well, although whether or not
you get enough power, I'm not sure what those modest computers will supply through their USB, but should do enough powering. - But people do this do
this a lot with Pi Zero. The only existing product
we have that can do that is the Zero one, so that's nice to be able to do that with the main Pi product. - Definitely, so talking about USB-C obviously moves us over
to our new accessories. Which we have on the table,
we haven't actually-- - Are we gonna pick the accessories up, are we just gonna gaze lovingly at them? - What would we like? I don't know where the camera's pointing. (laughs) - I'm gonna, why don't I pick this one up and I will hold onto it lovingly. So yeah that, camera, is a power supply. It's a USB-C power supply,
it's a very low cost, and very nice USB-C power supply. Obviously one of the concerns about moving to new connector standards
is that you're potentially asking people to spend
money on new things. So we spent a lot of time
sourcing cost effective power supplies and HDMI
cables to put on the market. This is what we ended up
with for power supplies. Historically we had a
multi head power supply. And I always felt like
some sort of eco criminal because it came with
four heads, and I'd throw three heads away every time
I got one out of the box, and I was feeling like
someone out of Captain Planet. And so it was kind of, it was nice to move to a single head one so it was a little bit more cost effective. Quite a lot of effort went in here. Dominic spent a lot of time thinking about the caps.
- It's been well tested. - Sort of picked over
the design a little bit. Pretty happy with it,
seems to be well received. - It looks nice as well. - Very thick cables.
- Yeah the cable's very thick. - It's the trademark, it's the trademark Raspberry Pi thick copper cable that people recognize from,
oh well this is coaxial, which is nice because it's
got better self-inductance. So but yeah, the same trademark, slightly crowbar-y feel you find on the official Pi 3 power supply. - Excellent.
- Yeah, happy with that one. - Yeah, nice, it's really nice. Comes in two colors as well
which I think alway's nice. - Yes. Comes in a box.
- It comes in a box. - [Eben] Which is there, for some reason. Don't know where the other boxes are. - Don't know what, yes. - Great box, great box.
- Yes absolutely. - It's lovely.
- And then the, aside from the, well yeah,
aside from the micro-- - We have a slightly random
collection of stuff here. Because we have a product that we launched a long time ago.
- I thought it was worth bringing in, because we
haven't really talked about everything that went
behind making the keyboard. So I think it's definitely
worth talking about. But first, Gordon very
excitedly has the Raspberry Pi 4 official case in his hand. - So yeah, when we came to
talk about the new case, so obviously, when we
were designing the Pi 4, the one problem initially,
was actually it was the wrong size, so we had to force James to make it the right size, but even so-- - It was good fun,
pointy stick. (chuckles) - Pointy stick, but even so-- - The pointy stick of
engineering. (laughing) - There was nothing we could really do about the position of the Ethernet cable, the Ethernet adapter and the dual HDMI, dual micro HDMI, so
we had to make a change to the case, and in that,
we kind of had a discussion about what we wanted to do, and whether or not we just wanted to make the same case slightly modified, or if we wanted to have another go. And you know, what if
we, so we kind of like had that discussion where we said look, if we could do anything,
what would we like to do? And obviously we came up
with some silly ideas. But we also came up kind of thinking, well there were, the
idea of this comes from the Pi Zero case, where
it's kind of like just, and the A+ case, which is really nice. - So because those since these, this is our fourth case,
really, that we've done. And we try to kind of learn stuff each time we do a case.
- Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that's
really nice about that is this thing where you kind of just drop the PCB into the
bottom, then clip the top on. Rather than previously, where you had like all these separate bits
that you clipped together. There was five separate
bits in the previous case. And we just felt like this
was a better solution. So there were lots and
lots of different ideas and developments, and one of the things that I really quite liked on this was kind of the flow, the
line flow across here, which allows you to have the clips as we had previously for the lid, or what was previously part of the base. But also had the clips
for the bottom as well. Right, so you've got the clip down here, but also the clips up here. And then it comes together really nicely. And then there was a
period during the design we realized that when you do this, what you do is, if you
look sideways through, what you will tend to see
is a tiny, tiny little, even if it's kind of
point one mill of a gap between the, you will see light. - Even less.
- And it will annoy me and Eben significantly
every time we look at it so-- - The human eye is designed
to pick this stuff up, right? I mean, I think that for
me, the biggest thing that I've learned from doing cases, is how good the human eye
is at seeing tiny little variations in depth, variations in zed, tiny little imperfections,
tiny little bits of light. - Especially more, more
than anyone else would see, including our customers, but the point is, it has to be you know,
we are customers as well. And therefore it has to be right for us. So what you'll actually see on here, is it's actually a little step on here to stop that light
coming through the edge. You know through the edge of the case. - Sort of an S, sort of
S-shaped, so there's no, you can't draw a ray of light that gets from inside the case to outside. - Not in this universe. (laughs) - And it's nice plastic
as well, thicker isn't it? - Yeah and it's a lot heavier. I mean actually yeah, that was again, another thing which we thought would help the manufacturing quantities,
because if you have thicker, like if you have a mold
that's got a bigger gap because it's thicker, then
if you push plastic into it, surely it would move
faster, and because of that, surely you should be
able to make it faster. It turns out, our theory does
not work out quite as well. Because it also means it has
to take longer to cool down. Because you know, you have
to conduct that heat out. So actually the answer
is, no it still takes about the same amount of
time to make the same-- - It feels nice.
- Yeah it feels nice. - [Gordon] It looks brilliant,
and it feels really good. - It looks like a proper computer. I think that's the thing with the case. Is with the RasPi4
we've been talking about it being a desktop replacement, and that case just gives it
that extra, really good looking- - We're really chuffed with it. We're really chuffed with
it actually, I think it is-- - [Gordon] It looks really nice. - It is nice.
- It's nice. - And it matches all the other things. Including the mouse, which doesn't seem to be on the table.
- We had a mouse. Ran away. (laughs) But yeah, I think it's
definitely worth mentioning the keyboard, we released it
what, a few months ago now? We talked about it some on the-- - We sort of yeah, we soft
launched it in the shop. We never do this, we never
soft launch products. We just put it in the shop
and started selling it. And people started talking
about it, which was kind of fun. So, because it's not kind
of the core product for us. It's a little, and it's not a replacement for previous products,
it's a little less critical for us if we do that, but this was, I mean this was, Simon Martin
spent what, a year on-- - I mean we started,
probably two years ago. - So yes, 2 1/2 years ago.
- 2/12 years ago, kind of just with the
original, just the lay, the physical outline,
Simon's then kind of like, has done everything else,
done all of the hardware and everything, and all the
manufacturing and stuff, and the handling that kind of-- - So the main board inside
this has got like a hub in the back of it, and the board for that is our own design, Simon
Martin designed that. - Excellent. One question we get asked an awful lot, is why does the RasPi4 say 2018 on it? - [Eben] Because it takes a
long time to design technology. - Well no, that's exactly
it, it's a genuine question people ask, so if you
could explain a little bit as to why it says copyright 2018. - Yeah, because it was designed in 2018. That's really the answer. - Yeah, no that's. (laughing) - When did we cut the first boards out? Well we built them the same
time as B0 silicon backs. So, January, mid January, late January. - So the design was the
second half of last year. - Built them with, when he says, the second half of last year, okay, we've moved offices, you
designed the office as well. - [James] That's true, yes. - That and the office, so
everything you see here is James as well.
- Okay. - What actually happened
was, we had a first spin of the 2711 chip, called,
well they called it 'A Step' which was the very first
device, and then we had to have a board ready to
test that, and then give some engineering feedback
ready for the 'B Step'. Which is effectively fixing
bugs, and take it out again. And in between the A and
B, there's a bit of a gap. And as Eben said, we
didn't have to go to C, which is fine, so in the gap there was-- - I mean A was so good, that we were pretty confident actually that we weren't going to have go beyond B. - But there's a sort of
period where you're waiting for the software guys and the testing to sort of happen, to see if there are any hardware changes, now
the biggest hardware change was actually squishing
the board back down a bit. Because it was a little bit too big on the first prototype, and that consumed quite a lot of my time, but. (chuckles) But there we go, I'm forgetting
the pain already, it's fine. - We got there in the end. - The, I mean it's interesting,
if you look at the board. You won't be able to see it on the camera, but if you have a RasPi4 in front of you and you look at it, and
you look at the number of vertical lines on
it, the number of traces that go that way across the board. To some extent, they represent a kind of an incompressibility in the design, right? Sooner or later, you have
to get a certain number of signals from up here to
down there, or vice versa. And, once those traces
are up against each other. Some optimizations to be
done, but sooner or later, you get to a point where
you have a certain number of signals that need to go up and down, and all of your traces are
absolutely up against each other using every single
little bit of the board. If you look at it, it's
basically where we are. There really isn't any,
you said it was within a millimeter of, I mean you
probably could have gone another millimeter by compromising-- - I think it would have really squished a bunch of things
together, and it wouldn't have looked quite as nice, possibly. And it's hard to know,
when you get so tight, it's hard to know whether
you can achieve it without trying, and then... - I mean things like you
know, when we're talking about you know, how much more there might be to give in the board, things like, the things that kept
coming up were things like playing with the Ethernet
differential pairs. Right, the Ethernet differential pairs are up here in the corner by
these two protection packages, are very tidily routed, and there was, I think, it looked to me that there was space to give there, but it
would have cost you viring, it would have cost you viring stuff down and then bringing stuff
across and back up again. And it would have been filthy. - Yeah, it makes it a
bit icky, suboptimal. - It's probably not true that
it couldn't have been smaller. But I think it's pretty much true it couldn't have been smaller
without sacrificing at least, aesthetics, if not functionality. The particularly impressive thing, is if you look how closely the
SoC and the DRAM are there, there and there, you've got
got a hole to fit the DRAM in that space right, so
you've got a bunch of 32 data wires, two lots
of six control wires? - That's about right, yeah. - The strobes and clocks.
- There's a lot of wires. - A lot of wires, call
it 50 wires at least. And they all have to be length matched. They don't have to be
perfectly length matched, but they have to be length matched to within a certain tolerance. They all have to be sort of,
shielded from aggressors, and stuff, and they'll
run at 1.6 gigahertz. So you've got edge rates
of 3.2 gig per second. And it's astonishingly tiny. - So we can assume that
James is very good at Tetris. - He must be extremely good at Tetris. I won't play him. (laughs) - Yes, he's the traveling salesman. - You know when he goes the house on, do want me to come around to help pack? He's like, no. - It's fine.
- You all suck at it. But yeah, you know I mean, it's lovely. I just still like to look at it actually. - Yeah it's a good looking board. - It is a good looking board. It's got your signature
on it as well, right? - Yeah.
- Yes, your signature. - [James] Underneath the USB-3. - [Eben] De-solder the USB-3 if you dare, and you'll see James'
signature underneath. - [Alex] I haven't even seen it. I think maybe we might need to... - We can forge checks in
his name then, it'll be rad. - No, that's actually only
my initials. (chuckles) - It's his autograph,
instead of his signature. - That's the one, and
you could forge checks if there were such a thing
as checks anymore, so. - You could sign for his Amazon packages. Right, so--
- You could initial the pages of the contract,
but not as long as you could trick him into signing the signature page. - [Alex] Yeah, all the things
that we could do to James. - [Eben] Yeah, it would be great. - Three different RAM
options for the RasPi4. Firstly, obviously why? And second, why not just
put 4 gig in everything? - Well, money, cost, RAM
is relatively expensive. - It's not as expensive
as it was a year ago, but it's still quite expensive. Well I mean it's two things,
one we wanted to make a $35 product, with
RAM prices as they are, you can only fit a gig into that. So one, the other one is we have a SoC that can now address a lot more memory. Why have we never had
more than one before? It's because we had a SoC
that could only address a gig of memory, so we were
not yet to get beyond that. Wouldn't have been possible,
you can dress more memory, four's the most that
we can dress right now, based on the D-RAMs available to us. So one, and four. We were actually able to
put two in there as well. Wow that sounded really like, the two ends are really compelling right? The two ends are really compelling. I think you know, today,
I think the 2 is in stock more than the 4, if you go look out there. 2's in stock more than 4,
I think a little bit more, 2 was built early on, I
actually think early on, 4's the big seller, 4's clearly the thing people ask us about most, you look at our website traffic,
it's mostly about the 4. Over time, I think the 1 and
2 will come into their own. Partly because of industrial users. If you can deploy 10,000 of these on every lorry in your fleet, you
know one on every lorry in your fleet, you're gonna save $100,000. If you can cut down to two gig you'll save yourself another $100,000 if you can cut down to one gig. So they'll come into their own. The kind of enthusiast market is always likely within reason to take the highest density we've got. - Definitely, I think those people that have rushed out to
get the four gig now, when they realize they
maybe need another RasPi for a project, then they'll
go for the 1 or the 2. But yeah, everyone wants the-- - They'll optimize for memory size. And it's nice that you
have that option right? Because not everything needs four gig. A lot of things don't. - It's interesting how
much the memory helps. It really does, I mean 3XCP
performs great and everything, but actually in terms of
whether it's a PC or not, being able to open lots of tabs, not being under memory pressure, not going to swap really does help. - The other thing is that you
can actually switch it back. If you want you can take your 4, put something into config.tech,
switch it back to 2 and try an app, and that will behave exactly as it if was a two gig Pi, and then you can compare and
see what you actually need. But yeah.
- So everyone should buy a 1, a 2, a 4.
- And try them all. - Try them all out, try them all, or do what Gordon just
said that's just cost us a lot of 1 and 2 sales,
thank you for that. - [James] We should have
made them different colors so you can really collect them. - Collect them all. - We get asked that so often. The blue Brazilian Pi
started a chain reaction of people wanted Union Jack ones. - Looks good, the blue one, I
wanna do the Union Jack one. I don't think there's any reason we can't do the Union Jack one, because we can get colored silk you see.
- Yeah I guess that's true. - We can get colored silk. So you could just have a whatever, one color as the base
PCB, and then just have, I wanna do the Welsh one actually, because that's already got the green, and then you can put the white and then the red dragon on it. That would be pretty cool. - Is that kind of your first idea? - I really wanna do the Welsh. I really wanna do it so badly. But not badly enough. (mumbles) - And one other thing to mention, that's obviously getting
some traction online is the elusive eight gig. - Oh yes that.
- So if you wanna just say a little bit more about the-- - The typo that shook the world. Look the SoC can dress 16 gig of memory. But how much memory can
you address generally, is down to how many
address bins have you got? We have enough, he says,
grappling slightly, 34 of them. So you can dress 16 gig,
nobody makes a 16 gig package. Currently some people do
make eight gig packages. But nobody makes an eight gig package that meets our particular
needs of our SOC. So, there's 1, 2, and 4. There one day may be an 8. - But it was a typo. - It was a typo. - We apologize. (laughs) - It was two typos,
actually but yes it was-- - Find the other typo. (laughs) - Find the other typo, play hunt the typo. But yes, it was a typo. - When a Welsh, no, right so-- - Welsh eight gig Raspberry Pi. (laughs) When two things that don't
exist combine together. - They're all Welsh
Raspberry Pis, unless they-- (mumbling over each other) unless they say "Made in Japan" on them. - It's a small town called Japan in Wales. - That's it.
- Yeah. So we were talking
earlier about thin clients and obviously we've got
the variations in RAM. What are you hoping to see people do with the RasPi4 that they
haven't been able to do with the other models? - Oh, that's a good question. There are many more things
you can do with them. I guess we are very interested to see what people think of
the dual display stuff, and how much that matters to people. We think for a certain subset, it's gonna be quite a big thing. And as a PC, you know you
can run what you want it to. It's like, we've got some guys now running their main desktop in the
office here on a Raspberry Pi. So they're basically using that-- - And not because we made them. - [James] And not because
we made them, right. - We'll fire you if you don't. - And they're running
two harnesses, right? So you know, for dev work, the
kind of stuff they're doing, it works really well. - And yeah, I mean the, I mean what it does enable, previously we've always
called it a desktop. We've always said it was a real computer. You can always use it, but
there was always something slightly jarring, the difference between kind of using your Mac
or PC and then switching to a Raspberry Pi and using
Chromium or something, using the same application,
it felt slower. Like you know, loading pages was slower. And now I don't find that at all. I feel as if, you know and like say, multiple tabs, you can open
as many tabs as you like. Pretty much as I do on any other. So now at home, I've now switched to just using Raspberry Pi. I don't take my PC home
anymore for doing that. So I just do all the normal
stuff that I normally do. - It's important to say what we mean when we say it's a PC,
and it feels like a PC. That doesn't mean it
scores the same as a PC in synthetic benchmarks, right. So if you run up some
synthetic benchmark on it, it will be, if I run up JetStream, so JetStream on my laptop, I get about, 100 and, somewhere between
100 and 120 points. You run it up on there, I'll
get between 40 and 50 points. Okay, so it's significantly,
and then there will be various synthetic
benchmarks where the spread is even wider than that, I'm
sure you'll find synthetic, and you know particularly,
that was my laptop, you then take a big desktop
machine, spread gets wider. What we mean when we
say it's a PC is it's, for most users, experientially, subjectively indistinguishable from it. So it delivers the amount of
performance you actually need. It's able to sprint for the
period of time that you need. You know, the determinant of usability for a lot of applications is not actually sustained performance, it's sprint performance, I open a webpage. How quickly does it open
and become interactive? And so it's been a platform
that's been designed around the experience of using a PC rather than out of trying to
beat that experience to death with incredible amounts
of computing power. - And I think it's also
worth mentioning it's, like you were saying,
it's that PC experience with GPIO pins, which I think we often don't talk about enough, right? But additional makings becoming
more and more of a thing. More schools are looking
into using you know, Scratch and Python, Scratch itself, you can now tell it, I'm
attached to a Raspberry Pi, I have GPIO pins, they're
becoming used far more often. So if you have a home
computer that you're using for basic things like
web browsing and email-- - Oh we should just stop there, right. If you're at a home computer,
you're using it for BASIC. (laughs) That's my childhood right,
oh she's talking about me! - That's what we used to do.
- So, basic computing. That still sounds like BASIC, you have the added extra of
GPIO pins, which is a big deal. It's pretty cool.
- It's pretty much what we had when we BBCs,
which was BASIC and-- - Actually, GPIO pins on the user port was kind of a bit weak sauce wasn't it? And then they crippled the printer port by putting a butter in front of it. - That's right yeah, that's
the one that blew my mind. I think you'd probably have to destroy it and have to de-solder it. - Steve, Steve back away from. (laughs) - Just like that pries out,
just like pries the chip out and then wire across.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - [Eben] Because then you've
got the entire whatever, which it was like--
- Well because the-- - [Eben] It was the A port from the-- - From the other one, so
you had the printer port. You also had the user
right, the user port. - And that was the B port, yeah. - [Gordon] That used the
422, right and so we had-- - So 2, 4, 4, 2, 4, 4? 3, 7, 3, I don't know. - So bi-directional.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So it can then set up
and do reads and writes. And that was really good, and you know, you need to do that, and like you know, just to be able to communicate
with the real world. - (laughs) We're gonna
have to do a whole series of you two just talking about-- - Just saying numbers at each other. - [Man] We need subtitles for this one. (laughing) - Boot over USBs. - We should go back to the GPIO pins, because we made them better
on this board, right? So you've got more stuff.
- We did, didn't we? - This is something that again-- - We just never ever really talk about. They're much better now.
- GPIO pins are better. - Four I-squared-Cs, and four UARTs, and four SPI.
- And four more. - Yes.
- On top of the one of each that was available before. - And PWM that isn't
shared with the audio. And anything else? Think there's is there
a second I-squared-S? - No, I don't think we did that. - [James] We didn't do that, okay. - We should have done that. - Raspberry Pi 5? (laughs) (sighs) - Give us a break. (laughs) - You'll be surprised how many people are already ask for the Raspberry Pi 5. - Trigret, trigret, tape out regret. We taped something out, and
forgot to put something in. It's only like millions of
dollars to fix one thing. - That's fine. Yes okay, boot-over-USB, other surfaces that people are waiting for? When can people see themselves-- - Go on, lean away from Gordon now. - So yeah, one of the greatest
things that we did with Pi 4, and I think James will agree, Eben didn't to begin with, but he
now does, is that we-- - Look I didn't want to put GPIO on the original Raspberry Pi. (laughs) Reliable way to figure out what to do, is to just ignore what I say. - [Gordon] One of the greatest things was like to add the SPI EEPROM. So this allows us to
actually the boot ROM, so the boot code that actually
boots the Raspberry Pi is now actually on the chip,
it's like on the board. What that means is, those extra boot modes that we provided previously,
which is like network boot, and USB boot, we can actually
load them up inside there. And that means we can
update it in the field, and when there are problems, we can then fix them. When we put it into the chip, which is what we did previously, sort of writing it and
testing it internally and putting it inside the chip, you end up with some bugs, so invariably, standard kind of bugs and, you don't get to fix those you
don't get to fix them until-- - So we had one stab at fixing it. So we had A1, so twice into
A1, which we shipped in Pi 3, had a first cut of USB and Ethernet boot. And then it worked for some
devices and not for others. Fixed most of them in B
Zero, but that wasn't until two years later in 3B+. So that's a long cycle
time, we don't think people want to wait two years to have those features on this product. - So yeah, so the issue
right at the moment, is it shouldn't take
us a long time to then, to push that across,
we're just catching up. And I think we set like a month at least, to get the Ethernet boot
is probably the easiest and the quickest, and that
one will happen first. And then USB boot after that, but yes. The great thing is, that
we'll tell you about it and you can update your Pi, and
then have all that goodness. - And we can fix the bugs. - And we can fix the bugs as soon as they, there won't be any bugs obviously, because you know, software
doesn't have bugs, but. (laughs) - I wonder how it's
interoperability issues, I mean interesting about both of those is that the bugs that tend to arise tend to be interoperability bugs. That you have a lot of other things. This USB-C issue is a good example of an interoperability bug. Which is much, can be
more challenging to find. Particularly if they're only a small lump of peer devices that exhibit
some sort of failure mode, than something which entirely
a bug inside your own design. So, yeah, there will be
a USB device, USB disk, that takes longer to spin up and doesn't, I think we have ones in the past where they wouldn't enumerate until they were spun up, or something? - They'd have to spin up first. But yeah, they wouldn't even
do the hardware enumeration which means just put
pull ups onto the pins. - Which they're really
supposed to do, right? - Which could take five seconds. And then they do that,
and then of course they-- - All that time and process--
- Processes, they're just out there kind of going,
what devices are there? And it goes, none, and
so it just sits there. And it can't do anything, can't keep going to like, fall back on a
different boot process for like five seconds because the disk doesn't spin up in time, and that's like, one of the problems
that we had previously. And we had to like make
changes to do that. - So you have this invidious choice then, of do you always wait
five seconds on a boot, in case a USB device shows up? Or do you charge on to the next thing and then risk not booting
from the USB device which was slow to enumerate itself? A lot of fun stuff with
Ethernet switches, there's-- - STP.
- Yes, the sort of stuff for avoiding loops you know, you plug in your Ethernet device in, your new Ethernet device appears. And you just won't
route to it for a while, in case what has actually been plugged in is a loop, back routed to somewhere further up the hierarchy, and therefore you're just gonna be packets, always round and round
and round all the time. So you've kind of gotta get
comfortable with a new device. Unfortunately, I want to
say the A-1 boot ROM does, is it wakes up and it goes, DHCP request. DHCP request first? Yes, DHCP request, and then the switch eats your DHCP packet. - And you never get another one. - [Eben] You never get another one. - That's a great example
of a bug. (laughs) Bug, stroke--
- Didn't happen with any of the switches
that we tested it with. But you put, there's a massive difference what you can do testing in here, or testing with, in here plus a few tens of testing people, plus,
versus what you get when you build a million units. 27 million units of product in the field. - It's riveting. - So, field updates,
really, really useful. - It's great also, that
like during the process of doing that, testing in the field, I was giving people boot code, saying to them, can you just run this, you know the next version,
what they didn't realize, is that actually that was
whilst I was developing the new boot ROM for the new chip. Of course they didn't know about. Which was then, that's when we got 3B+. So actually the people who were helping me develop and test the 3B software, didn't realize they
were actually helping me develop and test the 3B+, so. But yeah, whereas now, one of the things that say for example, that
needs to wait for longer, we can put a thing that says,
how long am I gonna wait? Or shall I just wait forever? We can put that into the
EEPROM, and then the EEPROM will then you know, that
code will just wait forever for your disk to spin up. - I think that's a great
example of you know, when it's out in the field,
and really discovering what's going on, would be the heat. Which is (laughs) just the general heat. No, the heat produced by the Raspberry Pi. There have been some comments online, with people saying it gets quite hot. I would argue, if you open
up any electrical device and put your hand in there, it's probably going to get a bit hot. (laughs) But again, already that's been something I believe, that has been
addressed within updates, unless I'm completely making that up. - I mean it's early days for
the software and firmware. We are, it's a whole new platform. You've got a lot more
performance on the 2 to 3X. It does get a little bit warmer. However, we are crawling all over in the software and the firmware to find all the places we
can sort of turn things off or put things into low power modes. And as Eben sort of said before, this is designed for sprint performance. So your board sits there
doing idle things mostly, at a certain temperature,
and then when it boots up, say Chrome or something,
and does some load, then the temperature
rises, and eventually, it may throttle, but the
idea is to have that window as large as possible, so that the user doesn't really notice it,
and the more idle power we can get out, the longer
that window becomes. So we're working hard to do that. - So you have kind of,
you have the dynamic power associated with doing processing. There's not very much
you can do about that. That's just, you're doing
a lot of processing. You chew through a lot of energy. The idle power is both, as James said, the important thing, it's also something you're more likely to be
able to do something about. Because it's generally the result of doing things that
don't need to be done. So in particular, distributing clocks to bits of the chip
which are doing nothing. And so if I tell you, 300
million times a second, don't do anything, that takes energy. And the chip is full of clock gates, both automatic and manual,
that you can enable to turn these things
off, and it's a massive fettling exercise to go do that. We shipped an update to the
USB controller firmware. Prototype update, that takes
about 300 milliwatts out. It is not compatible with
every downstream USB device. It seems like some mass storage devices, some USB-3 mass storage devices
see reduced performance when you use it, so we're not shipping it as our default, but it is out there, available for people who want to try it. And it seems like 80 or
90% of people who try it are pretty happy with it. - Where can people find
it if they wanna try it? - Oh it's on the forum somewhere. - It's on the forum,
excellent we'll link to that. - Google form, VLI firmware
update for Raspberry Pi. - Just head up to the
Raspberry Pi website, click Forum at the top. - Read all the posts on the forum, until you find the post that talks about the firmware for the VLI chip. I don't know.
- We will make that accessible.
- Is there like, a down here somewhere?
- It's in the description. - Is there some space down in the-- - Just, so here.
- It's here. Go to this place, here,
to get your, is that good? - Yeah, that was perfect. - I've done this before. That's why I'm such a YouTube star. - Another question we get asked-- - Can each of us point
to one side of the URL? Like this, 3, 2, 1, it's here. (laughs) - Our videographer's are--
- Different. - Yeah.
- Really annoying. (cracks up) - 3, 2, 1, it's in this
general neighborhood. (laughing) It's on the screen somewhere. - Do like the Disney
Channel, it just appears. There are some countries,
when we released the RasPi4, there were certain
countries that will sell it, but just didn't have it
yet, due to various reasons. Various tests, example, that
they have to go through. Places like China,
Australia, could you kind of go into that a little bit more, and just explain for
people why their country may not have had the Raspberry Pi 4 for them to buy on launch day? - Yeah, so mostly, it's
because of conformance. So you know, for example,
great example is America, they don't have it on the day, because on the morning
when we do the launch, there is, we have done all the testing that you require to do,
and then on the morning of the launch, all the information is sat at the FCC website, waiting
for us to hit a button. And Roger goes along,
and he presses a button. That then goes through, and
then somewhere in America, there's a large quantity of Raspberry Pis. - Sat in a warehouse. - And it's sat in a warehouse-- - But not in America, not
yet legally in America. - That's right, yes, so
it's in a bonding warehouse. So it's legally not gone
through customs yet. And then they require that, FCC, so they'll (makes beeping
noise) and then it's like nope, it hasn't got FCC, they won't let it in. So at that point, when he hits the button, they get a call you know, and then some communication
happens, that then comes in. So that gives at least a day's delay, or you know a couple of day's
delay for launch in America. A lot of other countries,
then have based their tests on FCC tests, so we then
supply then our FCC tests, or our CE tests, they
then take the Raspberry Pi and do some more testing in country. And that then has to, and
again, it's the same thing. You can't ship into that
country and start selling it until you have that testing done, and of course we also can't,
in general these systems are not, these things are not secret. So it's not like I can do... (phone ringing) - I'm the worst human being in the world. - Sorry, is that, oh!
- It's you! - It's me. (laughing) I honestly thought it was silent. - That's great, I've done
it twice, so it's fine. - I can't remember where we ended, before Eben rudely interrupted
us with his cell phone. (laughing) - I can't remember what we were saying. - But yeah, so the RasPi4 was obviously released with Buster, at the
time the RasPi4 was released, Buster wasn't technically
out in the wild yet. So, that must have been a challenge. (laughs) Or not, maybe it's
just a walk in the park. - No it was out in the
wild, it just wasn't frozen. - Yeah I mean yeah, it wasn't-- - Because it's pretty, by that point, it's kind of locked down,
they're just doing final little small change before
they do the release. - [Alex] Wasn't in its final form. - Yeah, so I mean, we told everybody, look, that's where we
are, and soon as Buster was released properly,
we then did an update and pushed that out like last week. We did that update,
which had some security bits and pieces that had to go in. And that went in and straight out. And I think that's the point, is that we are making changes. Like especially at this point, over the next month or
so, you're going to see lots of little things changing. So it's well worth keeping
an eye on your updates to make sure you update stuff,
because things will change. Software you know--
- We're getting a lot of feedback from the community, and we're fixing bugs,
and we're doing work to try to improve power consumption, so. - This is an outrageously
different platform, from previous platforms.
- It is, yeah. - Everything has changed,
nothing has changed, and everything has changed, right? (phone dings) That can't have been me, because I put the damn thing on mute. - No it's you. - How can it have been me? How can it go bing? - Eben Upton.
- Worst person in the world. - (laughs) So, so yeah, so
people should always be checking for updates, obviously major updates. Simon Long tends to write
some really nice blog posts. But there are other updates usually, between those posts as well,
so how would you suggest is the best way for people
to just keep on top of that? - So, you can either use the, there's the package manager in Raspbian. So you can just open the package manager, have a look in there and update. And that will keep it updated, or you can just use sudo apt-get update, upgrade and update on the command line. And yeah, and of course,
as things come out, for people who are looking
at cutting edge stuff, then forums will tell you
about what's changing, so. - So things like the VLI,
the VLI firmware updates in the forums, I think it's actually also an app, I think there's a
package I think you can get, in order to install it as well. But you know, the information
about it's in the forums, because it's not
something that we're ready to push out to everybody yet. What I was saying is this is a really outrageously different
platform, everything is changed, and nothing has changed. There is a lot of software work going on in order to deal with the consequences of that platform intersecting with currently, hundreds of thousands, shortly millions, of people's expectations about it. Because of course, we have
lots of people's expectations about what the Raspberry Pi does, are based upon what
previous Raspberry Pis did. We don't know what all
those expectations are. We discover them by
putting this platform out and having people say, it
doesn't do what it used to do. And so there's lots of the software work, at the moment, really
is around doing that. - I think, you know,
considering so much has changed, we have now, a completely different method of communicating with displays, right? Than we've previously had, and generally, it's been pretty easy to
do the transition I think. - Much more standards. - Much more standards,
and they have much more open source code in the Raspberry Pi. And we're using it, the open source code that we were using previously, but it, so the 3D drivers are open source. But the point is, now we're
using them by default. And so everyone is using
that on the Raspberry Pi 4. So we've kind of done
that switch over now, to an open source driver from what was a closed source driver,
and that's now our default. - So when you say we
shipped a lot of product, on the 24th of June, we shipped
more than a lot of product. We shipped a lot of software
product as well, right. So we shipped a lot of
different physical product. We shipped a new Debian, we shipped a new desktop environment-- A heavily overhauled
desktop environment on top of Debian. We shipped a new
bunch of 3D graphics drivers, we shipped a new display
pipeline, and we shipped a completely new IO world right. All of that at the same time,
oh we shipped LPA kernel. - LPA kernel, yeah, H.UVC drivers. - H.UVC drivers, LibreELEC, yeah, there's an awful lot of stuff appeared at
once, and it was kind of, it all appeared at once because, you know we like to be incremental. But sometimes there are points where you have to do everything at once because there aren't neat dependencies. Everything kind of depends
on everything else. And so we did everything,
and having kind of whacked the world very hard, we're now
dealing with the vibrations. It's going very well actually. - I think also, those
changes that you're making, especially in these early days is another reason why we can look at some third party resources like RetroPie, being an example of why
that wasn't released on the day of the
Raspberry Pi 4 coming out. And all these things, you
know people are asking when will this be ready,
when will this be ready? Obviously it's up to the developers. But while we continue to make changes, obviously that affects them as well. - And it's only, it's been
less than a month since launch. So, you know.
- It's incredible right? - [James] A lot of work is
going on in the background. - The thing was shipped what, 300K. I was just talking to
Mike, it's about 300K has gone out now, which is good. Because we had probably as many again, as we had stockpiled on launch day. Which is nice. - That's wonderful, I
was about to ask that. You answered my question
without me asking. - Ta-dah. - Excellent, well I guess really, unless there's anything else any of you would like to bring up,
it's really just worth, we've mentioned it a couple of times. But the forums are such
a wonderful resource. Members of the Raspberry
Pi team, engineers, actually are there as moderators, and are answering questions. So if anyone does have any
questions about anything, whether it's the case of, you found a bug, or hopefully you haven't found a bug, but you know you found a bug, or you're having an issue,
you don't really know how to do something, it's a
really wonderful place to go. So go to the website, we'll put
the link somewhere. (laughs) - Here. - Put it right there, over Gordon's face. But also the other--
- Just for the entire duration of the video.
- Just the Raspberry Pi logo. The other place that people can go still, is the launch day blog post. It's a great resource for, like stuff we've been talking about here, but you know other things as well. Also, so many people
had question on the day. And it was engineers that were there, answering the questions, so do head to the launch day blog
post, do head to the forums. If you have any more questions, ask them. We're here, you know we're happy to answer more questions
in a future video. - I'm happy to just, I do have
something I'd like to say. So there's this nice wall here, right. If you were not here, you'd
be able to see all the way down the office, and
that room behind the wall is full of people who did a
lot of the work, you know. Pretty much all the work that
wasn't done by these guys. (laughs) You know, this
is, the interesting thing about Raspberry Pi, I think you mentioned the launch blog post,
it has a credits list. Which was over 300 people,
between three and 400 people. And that includes people
who were obviously involved in the chip development,
the sort of vast so be it, people at Broadcom who were
involved in the chip effort. Other silicon partners, people
like manufacturing partners. Distribution partners, but you know, these products are now so complicated that they are not doable, or even, to a complete degree, comprehensible to a single human being, or even a small group of human beings. And for me, that's what's
been wonderful about it to me. Is that, but then you can
actually write the people down in the end, if you try hard enough. I'm just one person off this. This is a personal best,
I have always done these. I miss Andrew Schelleroff,
because he wasn't on Emma's Who's in the Office spreadsheet. - That's all right,
Gordon missed RetroPie. So I think old James
is the golden boy here. - Really, do I have to mention it? Do I have to be-
- Okay, no okay. Well I'm the--
- We all missed exactly one thing off, it's
very interesting, right? (laughs) - What could we possibly be talking about? - No, you know this is,
it's really interesting that groups of people can come together and build systems that
are this complicated. That we just have systems that allow human beings to build stuff like this. And to be part of that has
been pretty good right? Been doing it for a while now.
- Six years. - Six years, eight years. - Well yeah, yeah, the
trading company, kind of. - So yeah you know, it's, it hasn't stopped being fun though. Which is great.
- It's more fun. - It it more fun, and we meet new people. - And it's still recognizably
Raspberry Pi as well. We like our form factor.
- That's the big thing about this, you can recognize
that is a Raspberry Pi. - Yeah. - Many try to imitate it. (laughs) - Few saw the movement of the
Ethernet connector coming. (laughs victoriously) - But yeah, excellent,
well thank you so much, for taking time out to chat. And yeah, thank you
again for, well thank you and everyone, 300 people
on the list for RasPi4. - Awesome.
- It's been wonderful. - Thank you.
- Yay. - Whoo.
- Yay. (cute popping)
ill never understand all the whining around here. put a fan on it, wait for the software to catch up, use the usb cable they provide or recommend, and shut up already.
damn how reddit can turn on companies so quickly. ffs - its a $50 board.
Did they address the heating issue or just have the annoying woman laugh it off awkwardly?