WATCH: Andrew Cuomo's Full Testimony To Sexual Harassment Investigators Just Released By New York AG

this is quite the video exercise yeah i know we're on the record it's 8 17 a.m on july 17 2021. audio video recording will continue to take place until the parties agree to go off the record please note that microphones are sensitive and may pick up whispering and private conversations is the video recorded testimony of andrew cuomo in the matter of the independent investigation under new york state executive law section 63 8. we are located at 633 third avenue new york new york my name is christian biden i'm the legal video specialist on behalf of u.s legal support the certified stenographer is patricia b donde on behalf of u.s legal support i'm not related to any party in this action nor am i financially interested in the outcome council state their appearances for the record after which the certified stenographer will swear in the witness uh my name is june kim i'm an attorney at cleary gottliebs dean and hamilton i'm appearing today in my capacity as a special deputy to the first deputy attorney general for the state of new york my colleagues here with me are jennifer kennedy park andrew weaver and charlotte chun all from clear galley and i'm anne clark from the law firm of vladicraskin and clark also appearing today in my capacity as special deputy to the first deputy attorney general of the state of new york well good morning everybody my name is rita glavin i am here in my capacity as counsel to governor cuomo with me today is sharon nellis who is also representing the governor with me along with our colleagues nikki friedlander jacob singer serene armani and katie petrino i know that there are three other people in the room on your side which you've introduced yes would you rate your right hand please do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes i do can we start good morning governor how are you thank you for meeting with us today oh thank you um as you know the new york attorney general has appointed our firm and ms clark's firm to conduct an independent investigation under section new york executive law section 63 8 into allegations of sexual harassment brought against you and the surrounding circumstances and you're here today pursuant uh to a testimonial subpoena issued in connection with that investigation do you understand that i understand that and uh as you know you've just been placed under oath and that means that you have to testify fully and truthfully as if you were in a court of court of law before a judge or jury and that your testimony is subject to the penalty of perjury you understand that i understand that i didn't understand when you said you were the special deputy to the first deputy and then said you were appointed by the attorney general that's the title that we've been given as a special deputy the first deputy attorney general but you said you were special deputy appointed by the attorney general appointed by an order by you and the attorney general selected us but your counsel to the first deputy we're special deputies to the first deputy attorney general that's our title okay without saying the fact that you're under oath subjects you to the penalty of perjury and although this is a civil investigation although it's a civil investigation the attorney general's office has uh criminal enforcement powers and as a result you have the right not to answer questions if you believe it will incriminate you as a former attorney general i'm aware of the attorney general's power i'm aware of the special prosecutor power uh independent investigator power and i understand there may be subsequent investigations to this investigation yes understood but i just need to on the record make sure we're advising you of of your rights i understand um and although you have a right not to answer questions that you believe may incriminate you a refusal to answer questions under the fifth amendment may have consequences in civil proceedings and it can be used against you do you understand that yes i do and we have a court reporter here president and a videographer so i know uh you're obviously well familiar with it but i will try to and if you could also try to make sure i finish my question before you answer yes sir and i will try to uh wait for a complete answer before i ask a follow-up question our team will do the same great okay um we're going to be asking you some questions about some specific dates and events and if you don't remember a specific name or time or date please tell us but if you do have a general recollection uh that's we ask that you provide the general recollection of what you do remember while noting that you may not remember certain specific things i understand um could you please confirm that you're not otherwise recording uh this testimony other than the testimony that the recording that's being done by the court reporters today i am not okay could council confirm that others are not that counsel is not we are not recording but as everyone in this room is well aware in these situations we take copious notes understood i fully expect people will be taking notes but in terms of a physical recording or a transcript yeah and we will discuss afterwards as we've mentioned before our desire to get a copy of this transcript but that's not for today understood transparency is normally a good thing mr kim but go ahead i understand and can you also confirm that uh you are not streaming this real time to someone uh outside of the room and that you won't consult and talk to people other than your lawyers about the substance of your testimony while we're on breaks we are not streaming this real time okay the governor is not streaming this real time and we made that clear to you in a letter that we sent to you mr kem and the governor will be consulting with his counsel as needed throughout understood not intending any offense by asking these questions we have had instances of people who said they were trying to record stuff of live streaming yes they're not live streaming yet so but you understand why okay i have that on the record yes um governor are you um on any medication or drugs or anything that might make it difficult for you to understand certain questions is there any reason that you would not be able to answer the questions today truthfully if you could wait till the end answer the question um other than conversations with your attorney what have you done to prepare for today's testimony conversations with my attorneys have you spoken to anyone else about the substance of your testimony no sir are you familiar with what type of conduct constitutes uh sexual harassment uh under new york state law yes sir okay uh can you tell us your understanding of what type of conduct constitutes sexual harassment under new york state law we changed the sexual harassment law recently 2019 i believe it's physical sexual advances sexually explicit statements that would be discriminatory derogatory cause offense to the hearer the listener the recipient of the remarks or interfere with their job performance okay and over the years as governor have you completed sexual harassment training i've taken sexual harassment training since i was uh secretary of housing and urban development attorney general we had sexual harassment training go as governor we have sexual harassment training and have you taken sexual harassment training every year we have taken i believe the last time i took it was 2019. last year we were busy with covid which basically shut down state government in many ways so i don't know that the annual trainings were done during the covert year so you took it 2019 you're not sure about 2020 how about prior to 2019 we had trainees prior also and have you taken sexual harassment training in the years prior to 2019 yes every year that you've been governor i don't know how many years i would have to check do you remember any year where you did not take sexual harassment training i don't remember what years i did or didn't take sexual harassment training so is your recollection that you think you did take every year or you would have to check i just said i would have to check i don't recall what years i took it what years i didn't take it so you don't specifically recall taking it every year i don't recall not taking it every year either i don't recall understood so you don't recall one way or the other you get asked to answer that's what i've said three times i apologize if some of the questions may sound repetitive just trying to get a clear understanding all right just just to start off ms glavin i know you may have an urge to uh object or insert objections like as unanswered this is not a civil deposition we're preserving rights this is an investigation we're just trying to get information i understand you may continue to do it but it's just going to take more time and i'll obviously advise if there's issues of privilege that you need to consult with the governor on please tell us and feel free to do it but i'm largely not going to respond to objections like asked and answered you can do it it will just take time yeah i know the reason i made that objection is it also takes time when the same question gets asked over and over i understood i understood so is your recollection that you did take it every year before 2019 i do not remember what years i took it what years i didn't take it and in 2019 you do remember taking it yes sir and did you sign attestations saying that you took the sexual harassment training either i signed the attestation or i would have my assistant sign the attestation that i took it okay and do you remember either you signing or your assistant signing it every year that you've been governor for the years that i took it i don't remember if there's always an attestation attached to the form so there may have been some years when you took it but no attestation form was signed i don't know if every year had an attestation attached to it you're assuming that every training had an attestation i don't know that that's a fact not assuming anything governor i'm just asking you whether you recall signing an attestation every year if the answer is no no but do you remember i don't remember if uh the the training had an attestation or not okay and so when you say it has an attestation is it your recollection that the training form comes with an attestation 2019 my recollection is it had an attestation and so if it did not have an attestation then then you couldn't sign it you could ask for an attestation correct if it wasn't part of the training if it wasn't part of the training and the training didn't come with an attestation and the recipient just took the training would i then ask please send me an attestation that i took training that is not when you don't require an attestation so is it your understanding that um if an attestation form does not come attached to whatever form or documents provided to you that the signing of an attestation form is not required if the attestation form was required i would assume that they would attach an attestation form to the training some documents have attestation forms included some don't if they included whoever did the training i don't know if they always included an attestation form or not so you only signed it or had your assistant sign it if there was an attestation form attached to the material provided to you i would assume so i don't recall but i would assume that if there was an attest no attestation form then there would have been nothing to sign okay um and how what kind of uh what form did the sexual harassment training come to you in it came as a printout of an elect electronic presentation and it came out as a print out of an electronic presentation and your your recollection isn't on some occasion it also came with an attestation on 2019 i recall it came with an attestation but on other years uh well do you remember taking it ever other than 2019 i recall taking it at other times okay but just not clear with its every year you definitely remember at least once other than 2019. i recall taking it at other times in other offices also i don't recall whether or not they had attestation forms attached how about as governor any other year other than 2019 that you do remember i remember taking it prior to 2019 i don't remember when and it came to you in a printout form and who gave that to you it would have been given to me by one of the administrative assistants and what do you remember doing once you received that form i remember reviewing the training going through the training and then either signing it myself or telling my assistant signed the attestation fill it out um and do you remember for the one you did take 2019 do you remember what kind of substance the sexual harassment portion of it covered yeah it was uh basically a printout of a powerpoint presentation it talked about definitions and then it gave model scenarios uh with little true falses after a little vignette is this true is this false uh little subsets of a practical nature for employees in a practical workplace if your boss says this then this uh so and was the uh the form something that was created by goer i don't know who created the form or the training but you remember there being models or hypotheticals about yes if your boss does this is it sexual harassment false true or false that kind of thing do you remember any models or hypotheticals that involved a boss who uh would touch someone's hand or shoulder and would uh get too close to that employee remember a hypothetical involvement i don't remember remember that one specifically no how about a fact pattern that involved comments that an employee made about a colleague's jewelry and why they were wearing jewelry yeah models to that effect i remember i don't remember jewelry specifically but you would you'd actually read through yes the harassment policy yes or the training sorry yes okay um and if you can look we have a binder in front of you we won't necessarily refer to it that often but we have some documents there just in case if you can turn to tab 131 don't worry i don't we won't be going through all of it but we didn't have our office at our availability okay so um this is a uh transcript of um a press conference that you had on may 13th of this year right and if you go to page 18 the page numbers show up on the lower right hand corner 18 of 23. if you could tell me when you're there okay so during the are you there yes okay so during the press conference you were asked the second question can you say where and when did you personally take the sexual harassment class you mandated others to take employees and you answered yeah i took it in my office in albany when uh you say the executives have a powerpoint they go through you don't participate in a class you're given a powerpoint you take it every year and the reporter asks but i mean this year when did you take the class you say oh i don't know the date but i took it this year you see that yes um and when you're referring to the powerpoint here is this are you referring to the same thing we've been talking about the document yes and at this time were you aware and when you were saying i took it this year you were talking about 2021. you took it no this is this press conference is on what date uh may of 2021. no then if uh it was not this year it was uh 2019. so you recall only take it in in 2019 you don't remember taking it in 2021 2020 was last year 2021 is this year we were overcome with covet state government basically closed down employees were sent home only essential workers were working so a lot of the normal operations of government ceased for covet not just this state but all across the nation all across the world so there are many normal functions that went on that didn't happen because of covet i don't believe we did the trainings sexual harassment trainings during the covert year like we didn't do many things the department of motor vehicle offices were closed the essential services were closed there was nobody in the office to perform uh anything so i don't know uh that anyone did the trainings we're now back up and running and we're we're rebooting uh government so for 2021 and 2020 2020 and 2021 you did not take sexual harassment training i believe that's right okay 2019 you did i believe that's right um and if you can turn to 18. are you there yes i am um and this is an uh mandarin mandatory training attestation form is this a a type of attestation form that we were talking about yes sir and this says that in 2019 uh you took you completed the following mandatory training course and sexual harassment in the workplace is one of those that that's checked out right and it has under your name i have read and understand the material and acknowledge that i'm responsible for complying with its contents andrew chromo and there's a signature october 8 2019. you see that yes is that your signature that it may be my signature or maybe stephanie benton's signature sometimes i will sign it and then say fill it out or sometimes i'll say sign it and fill it out this signature could be mine or hers she definitely filled that out i didn't write that andrew cuomo or the dates so the andrew cuomo that's not your handwriting no the signature you're not sure whether i'm not sure okay but if she if she filled out the name she may very well have signed it also if you look at tab 9 and if you can just kind of keep your finger on tab 18 as well [Applause] this is an executive order that you signed right if you look at the last page that is that you signed this executive order uh i don't think i signed this executive order i think this was auto okay is that an auto pen of your signature that is an autopilot my signature this signature you recognize as yours this signature i recognize is my autopin signature okay the signature on 18 you're not sure it could be your signature it could be stephanie benton signing yes i often will say to her you sign it for me um or she can order pin documents um what other doc what other types of documents does stephanie benson sign for you also it's the documents what types of documents virtually almost any document that comes across my desk you know i get hundreds of documents per day that have to be signed so it's very there are multiple ways of signing the auto pen can sign it or she can sign it or i can sign it but i normally will i sign very few actually myself [Applause] i'll often review the material review the documents tell her to sign them or auto-pen them okay so does she sign checks for you she can sign almost anything for me executive orders could sign an executive order well if you can auto pan it she could not auto pen uh not but actually she could start replicating someone else's signature she could sign an executive order okay she has she signed an executive or she can authorize an auto autopilot has she's has she physically signed an executive order i don't know has she physically signed any bills you mean legislation laws tend to be autopenter auto pen with your actual signature well it's not my actual signature it's an auto pen it's a mechanical signature okay but but it's a mechanical signature i understand what auto pen is it's your actual signature and then it it replicates that very image and then there's that's different than someone else just signing your name as if it looks like it's a machine signing my name because i'm not asking about auto signing i'm asking about physically signing a document stephanie benton physically signed bills for you legislation she may have how about bills or like checks she may have she may have signed anything that i would be required to sign because she's authorized to sign anything yes do all the trainings that are checked off here yes ma'am and did you do them all in the same day uh i would assume so but i don't have a specific recollection do you recall how long it took you to get through the training on these six subjects i don't remember i see fire safety and internal controls was not checked off do you remember why those were not checked off no i don't and you mentioned earlier that uh you the law was changed in um 2019 and that's legislation that expanded uh workplace sexual harassment protections it changed the law yeah changed the law and it actually eliminated the severe or pervasive requirement for sexual harassment to be actionable right if you can look at tab 14. okay and this is a press release that went out when i believe that law was signed okay and you say in here the quote from you is there has been an ongoing persistent culture of sexual harassment assault and discrimination in the workplace you see that yes it did is that something you recognized as a problem yes 2019 yes that's something you recognize as a problem today yes if you could uh just for the court reporter's sake uh yes let me finish the question oh okay um and it goes on to say by ending the absurd legal standard that sexual harassment in the workplace needs to be severe or pervasive uh was that a standard that you believe that the time was absurd yes absolutely high yes and is that something sitting here today you believe yes still yes if you can turn to tab 24 and this is the equal employment opportunity in new york state handbook rights and responsibility a handbook for employees of new york state agencies andrew m cuomo government do you recognize this document as the employee handbook yes this is a handbook that governs new york state agencies including the executive chain right and does it apply to you as well yes and if you look at um page 11 that's the part of this or the bottom part of this employee handbook that addresses sexual harassment okay and it defines sexual harassment um and i want to read you parts of this and ask if it's consistent with your understanding of the sexual new york state sexual harassment law um it says sexual harassment includes unwelcome conduct which is either of a sexual nature or which is directed at an individual because of that individual's sex when such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating hostile or offensive work environment even if the reporting individual is not the intended target of their sexual harassment second bullet such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of employment or submission to or rejection of such conduct is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting an individual's employment does that part is that part consistent with your understanding yes of sexual harassment law yes and then it continues actions that may constitute sexual harassment based upon a hostile work environment may include but are not limited to words signs jokes pranks intimidation or physical violence which are of a sexual nature or which are directed at an individual because of that individual sex is that consistent with your understanding of new york state law yeah this is the policy right you're not reading the law well i i'd like to know if it's um if it's consistent with it's a policy start with is it consistent with your understanding of the new york state policy yes is it consistent with your understanding of new york state law yes uh it goes on to say sexual harassment also consists of any unwanted verbal or physical advances sexually explicit derogatory statements or sexually discriminatory remarks made by someone which are offensive or objectionable to the recipient which caused the recipient discomfort or humiliation or or which interfere with the recipient's job performance is that consistent with your understanding of the policy yes is that consistent with your understanding of the law yes and then it goes on on the next paragraph i won't read the first sentence but the second sentence sexual harassment need not be severe or pervasive to be unlawful and can be any sexually harassing conduct that consists of more than petty slights or trivial inconveniences is that consistent with your understanding of the policy that is yes it is is it consistent with your understanding of the law yes it is next paragraph it says it is not a requirement that an individual tell the person who is sexually harassing them that the conduct is unwelcome is that consistent with your understanding of the policy yes is it consistent with your understanding of the law yes it goes on to say in fact the human rights law now provides that even if a recipient of sexual harassment did not make a complaint about the harassment to the employer the failure of the employee to complain shall not be determinative of whether the employer is liable is that consistent with your understanding of the policy i'll stipulate mr kim deep this is the policy of the state which i believe is consistent with the law with the law okay um if you can turn to um well sorry my question was is it consistent with your understanding of the problem yes and your understanding is the law yes if you go to the next page page 13 any complaint whether verbal or written must be investigated by goer or pursuant to the employing agency's policy is that consistent with your understanding of the policy here yes and are you aware of any other uh employee any other policy in the executive chamber what's that just you don't just throw it clear the employee should complain promptly to goer is that what you're reading no i'm reading at the in the reporting sexual harassment paragraph any complaint whether verbal or written must be investigated by goer or pursuant to employing agencies policy if there's other parts of this that you'd like to well read the piece before that okay that you omit it as with all forms of discrimination harassment of employee including an internal contract to work against the employee experience the sexual harassment of our services the employee should complain promptly to go or where are you reading from governor the very first sentence first sentence that you omit it i'm not reading the entire thing yeah right so i know but you're welcome to read other parts yeah i'm just saying it's you're starting in the middle of a paragraph i just i think to give the context of the paragraph you start at the beginning normally if you want to represent okay the paragraph the employees should complain promptly to goer here's the form if deploying agency is not subject order 187 they should file a complaint in accordance with the their employer's discrimination complaint procedure the employee may also report such contact to a supervisor employee a person or man the complaint will be verbal in writing okay okay is that consistent with you yes sir any of the policy yes and if i can continue it says if the complaint is verbal a working complaint will be requested for the employee in order to assist in the investigation is that consistent with your understanding of the policy and then it says if the employee refuses to reduce the complaint to writing the supervisor or other individual who received an oral complaint should file it in writing yes on the new york state employee discrimination complaint form is that consistent yes you understand the other policy yes and then it goes on to say any complaint whether it verbal or written must be investigated by goer or pursuant to the employing agencies policy yes is there any uh other policy within the executive chamber that would be inconsistent with the requirement that it must be investigated by goer that you are not that i'm aware then it goes on to say furthermore any supervisory or managerial employee who observes or otherwise becomes aware of conduct of a sexually harassing nature must report such conduct so that it can be investigated is that consistent with your understanding of the policy that is yes just for clarity's sake we understand that this is talking about a complaint that would be a sexual harassment complaint as defined by the sexual harassment law and policy is that your understanding that when someone receives a complaint that that supervisor role is to determine first whether it satisfies that person's definition of sexual harassment under the law before they report it i'm just saying that's the reading in the paragraph if an employee including an internal contractor working as they were experiencing sexual harassment then everything you read so my question is in your mind you read that as saying that a supervisor who is informed of a complaint or learns of a complaint first must decide whether in his or her view it satisfies sexual harassment under the law before reporting it no i'm not expressing of you i'm expressing what the words say that's how you read these words it's not that's the literal reading of the words it's not how i read them i have no interpretation of them i have no opinion that's the literal reading of the words that's how you literally read this paragraph well that's how it's written that's how the paragraph is written the paragraph doesn't talk about whether a supervisor needs to make a determination legally whether the conduct satisfies sexual harassment i never said it right i just read the literal question in your mind is that a requirement that's part of the policy i have no opinion or interpretation the literal words of the paragraph say experiences sexual harassment or observes it you're just reading the words yes just reading words it's going on to the next paragraph it says if an employee is harassed by a co-worker or a supervisor it is very important that a complaint be made to a higher authority promptly is that consistent with your understanding of the policy yes an agency cannot stop sexual harassment unless it has knowledge of the harassment yes and once informed the conduct must be reported to goer or the employing agency which is required to initiate an investigation and recommend prompt and effective remedial action where appropriate yes that's consistent with your understanding of the policy yes all qualified by sexual harassment experiencing sexual harassment if you can turn to page 39 of this document this talks about retaliation and you can read any part but uh drawing your attention to uh the last sentence or second the last sentence in the first paragraph retaliation can be any action more than trivial that would have the effect of dissuading a reasonable person from making or supporting an allegation of discrimination you see that yes is that consistent with your understanding of the policy yes and such action may be taken by an individual employee is that consistent with your understanding yes yes and it says in the second paragraph actionable retaliation by an employer can occur after the individual is no longer employed by that employer is that consistent with your understanding of the policy governing retaliation yes and this says it goes on to say this can include giving an unwanted unwarranted negative reference for a former employee yes that's consistent with your understanding okay you can put the go ahead sorry sorry um governor if you could turn to page 42 it's a section that starts on page 40 reporting discrimination in the workplace and at the top of page 42 it says any discrimination or potential discrimination that is observed must be reported even if no complaint has been made failure to comply with the duty to report may result in disciplinary disciplinary and or administrative action was that your understanding of the policy yes i think you could uh put the binder oh actually you can leave it there if that's easier but um i'm going to switch um governor when did you first meet lindsay boylan uh i met her when she was chief of staff at empire state development corporation and about when was that several years i don't remember the year several years ago uh this 2015 sound about right sounds about right okay and how did you first meet her she was the chief of staff to the empire state development corporation the head of the corporation was howard ziemski and i met her in those interactions okay and how often while she was chief of staff to howard zemsky how often did you see her not not that often empire state development corporation is located in this building it's the primary state agency you could say in terms of economic development but not that frequently and which floor was empire state development in of this building i think it's the 36th and so um about how often did you see or interact with her when she was chief of staff to howard dempsey when we would have meetings on related issues or economic development events and would that roughly be once a month a few times a month or a few times a month and when you met lindsay boyle in that context um would it generally be with other people or would one on sometimes one-on-one generally with other people and who would the other people be generally other economic development people howard zamsky one uh yes um and on occasion would you also meet with her one-on-one probably on occasion and would they generally be here in new york city or up in albany or both both would be both and at some point in time lindsay boylan moved to the executive chamber correct yes and she became the deputy secretary for secretary for economic development yes when was that that was some time uh after that was a uh i'd say a couple of years after she started okay so around march of 2018 sounds right enough okay and once she moved into that role uh did that change the frequency of your interactions with her or seeing her yes deputy secretary role is basically the governor's liaison to that agency it goes uh governor secretary director of operations deputy secretary deputy secretary as a portfolio of agencies deputy secretary for economic development the main agency is empire state development corporation she had been the chief of staff to empire state development corporation becoming the chief of staff means she's also the liaison to empire state development but vis-a-vis the governor's office um and so you uh met with her or interacted with her more frequently once she took on that role okay how uh what was the frequency of your interactions with her uh i think it's fair to say we would have like weekly staff meetings as a general rule that you would attend bi-weekly staff meetings with members other members of your staff yes and again uh would you once she came into that role uh were most of the meetings that you had with or interactions you had with her with other people present yes uh were there times when you met with her one-on-one yes um and again were those primarily or were they in new york city or albany or both they could be both um and did she travel with you she would travel on trips and events how often not often at all okay that be once a month more than once a month or less than once a month i would say less than once once a month but we couldn't find out but i don't really remember so she would travel with you on your on the airplane with other people yes and the helicopter uh i'm sure uh one or the other how about in cars if we went to an event in a car and how did the decision come about that she would become the deputy secretary for economic development i was part of the process deputy secretaries i'm part of the process other people may have recommended it also but i thought it was a good idea deputy secretary is an important position deputy secretary is an important position but the deputy secretary within the framework of the bureaucracy the deputy secretary has a portfolio of agencies uh here the main agency was economic development which then has a commissioner howard ziemski is a commissioner the deputy secretary is the liaison to a commissioner to the governor but a commissioner believes they're a commissioner and they are the head of the agency and the deputy secretary believes that they are the governor's representing representative over the commissioner these are often tense relationships in the case of economic development the head was howard zemski who had a very good working relationship with lindsey boylan and did not like to be micromanaged by the chamber staff so lindsay as the deputy secretary uh made sense because she had a good relationship with howard zemsky and could facilitate it because we had had issues howard was a very talented person and a senior person these deaf people are sometimes younger people uh and howard zamsky's attitude was i don't need this person telling me how to do economic development i'm the commissioner so lindsay made sense because of her relationship with howard and you said you were part of the decision to put her in that position why did you think she would be good for that as i just explained her relationship with howard zemsky yes we had had issues in the past with howard who was a very valuable member of the administration bristling at micromanagement and i thought lindsay wouldn't present that problem would facilitate the relationship and who was in that role prior to lindsey boylan we had a number of people it was a very difficult position to fill because of the dynamic i mentioned and when lindsay boylan took that position did she physically move onto your floor uh she kept the other hat of being the chief of staff at empire state development corporation which was a different model so she remained chief of staff at empire state development but also served as the liaison physically she kept her office where she had it at empire state development i believe so but i don't know and then i don't know where she what her office was in albany et cetera i just don't know and while she was uh working as the chief of staff to howard zemsky did you have conversations with mr zemski about ms boyle uh i certainly would have before she was appointed to because part of it was to make sure the relationship with howard was facilitated did you discuss her work there with howard zemsky her work in terms of his level of confidence in her to that extent yes and what was his view of or the quality she was very good and what was your view of the quality of her work based on what you had observed i thought she was very good and to the extent she could facilitate the relationship with howard zemsky even better did you discuss while um she was chief of staff to howard zamsky did you discuss lindsay boylan's appearance with mr i don't remember any conversation that i had with howard about her appearance how about anyone else i don't remember having a conversation with anybody else about her appearance and i had limited my earlier question to while she was chief of staff to howard zemsky but how about ever have you ever made any comments about lindsay boylan's appearance i don't remember ever making any comments about her appearance to anyone okay do you remember uh saying evra that you thought lindsey bowling was beautiful i don't ever remember saying i thought lindsey bowling was beautiful do you remember ever saying uh that she looks lovely i don't remember saying that no uh do you remember everything that looks excuse me but that is something i'm capable of saying to someone uh so do you remember you mr kim but just never said i'm not broke um do you remember ever saying to her ms boylan you look lovely today or words to that effect i don't remember saying that but i wouldn't be shocked if i made that comment and you wouldn't be shocked because that you can see yourself making a comment to someone saying they look lovely uh i could see maybe not lovely lovely is not really my word but i could see complimenting someone on their looks on their appearance you look nice today okay what are some of the things that you would say when you compliment people on there i could say you look nice today okay uh anything else then generally that you know that that expression that uh someone is beautiful have you said that you look beautiful no it's no i don't that's not my word or my expression how about italian version of beautiful the italian expression is bella which is more of a greeting than a than a statement of bella ciao bella ciao bella is hello uh it's a greeting more i have said ciao bella on occasion it's casual informal uh but i have said ciao bella um so you you you do say things like ciao bella it sounds like lovely may not be a favorite term but something to that effect someone looks nice someone looks attractive i could say to a man or a woman you look nice today man or a woman man or a woman and so that's why you don't it wouldn't surprise you if you don't remember it but it wouldn't surprise you if you said something like you look lovely too lovely is not really my word or you look good today you look nice today i could say to someone you look nice today mr kim just to clarify the question when you're saying commenting on you know somebody's looks are you including people's clothing in this question are you referring to that as well because that question yeah uh yes primarily about the clothing okay primarily about clothing yes that's a nice tie i don't really think it's a nice type but for purposes of illustration i happen to think it's a nice time uh it's a nice tie you look nice today shoes nice shoes for women what have you uh have you said about people's appearance either clothing or otherwise their appearance you look nice today it's a nice outfit just general human interaction welcoming uh hospitable comments nice dress i don't know that i would really get into dress just a generic comment okay how about making fun of people about their clothing have you done that sometimes with men about ties where i just teased you about your time how about with women no not really did you ever ask a woman wearing a dress to spin around for you never that i recall never there's not something uh i would do and i don't have any recollection about that um going back to ms boyle and do you remember ever comparing her to any actresses no i do not recall that in discussions with anyone not directly with her no i do not um do you remember ever comparing her with any ex-girlfriends of yours not an ex-girlfriend i did say to her words to the effect of uh in this small talk uh you have a clone do you know that you have a clone a person looks just like you uh and uh because there is a person i know who was an unc in my opinion an uncanny resemblance to her uh and uh that was that and then i said to stephanie later on as i recall tell her to google a woman named lisa shields who uh is the person i was referring to as the quote-unquote clone or replica i forgot exactly what he said uh and that was it and so you recall uh having a conversation with her where you said in words the effect of you know you have a clone did you say at that time lisa shields i don't think i said the name at the time and that's why i told stephanie afterwards tell her to google lisa shields i did not say lisa shields was a girlfriend was she a girlfriend of yours she was a friend of mine 20 years ago i think lindsay herself in one of her tweets or letters called her rumored to be a girlfriend which i found interesting because rumored to mean a girlfriend means i did not say she was a girlfriend because if i said she was a girlfriend she would have said who the governor said was a girlfriend she said rumored to be a girlfriend i don't believe there's a news article that ever said she was a girlfriend there may be a news article this is 20 years ago i don't remember but there may be a news article that says rumored to be your girlfriend or something like you know a page six piece or something like that so my question was uh actually was she a girlfriend of yours she was a friend how do you want to define girlfriend did you date her how do you want to define date how do you define date but doesn't matter how i define date how do you define date because it's your question my question is you don't understand the question of first i'll go to my earlier question was she your girlfriend you don't you don't understand what's she my girlfriend meaning do you understand what a girlfriend is oh girlfriend means different things to different people okay what does it mean what a girlfriend means to me may be different than what a girlfriend is doing what does it mean to you it doesn't matter what it means to me it matters what you want to know i'd like to know whether you thought she is was a girlfriend of yours do you not understand what is yours i don't know a good girlfriend my understanding doesn't matter friend who is over without christmas okay it is a friend who is a girl that's how you define girlfriends yes okay how about someone you date have relations with have relations kiss you kiss you did i kiss her yes it was a period of time that i kissed her okay you kissed lisa shields yes you went on dates with her she was a friend and we did activities together you kissed her on the mouth okay that's i think a general and you have relations with nowadays physical relations with nowadays mr kim i believe you have to be very careful about how you define what term girlfriend could mean this i she is a woman who was a friend who i did see romantically for a period of time okay if you define girlfriend as a woman friend who you see romantically for a period of time was lisa shields a girlfriend of yours if that is your definition yes and did you tell um uh stephanie benton to say that uh she looks like lisa shields but a better looking no version no okay so if you can turn to tabs six in your binder and this is a a text exchange between ms benton and lindsay borland that has been made public you've probably seen it before have you seen this before i think i have seen this before and uh stephanie benton says to lindsay boyle and he said look up lisa shields and uh you testified that you did tell stephanie benton to tell lindsay boland to look around yes okay and then it says you could be sisters is that something uh you asked stephanie benton to convey i don't remember asking stephanie to say that i think she said i think stephanie is saying you could be sisters except you're the better looking sister do you remember uh asking stephanie benton to convey that lindsay borland was the better looking sister no of lisa shields no i do not remember that i don't remember saying to say you could be sisters except you're the better looking sister i certainly didn't tell her to say you're the better looking sister i don't remember telling stephanie to say you could be sisters either okay so just so we have it straight you don't remember saying you could be sisters except you're the better looking sister you don't remember telling her to say either of those things that's right [Music] you you don't remember but you may have said you could be they could be sisters i don't remember saying you could be sisters i remember saying just the first remark look up lisa shields okay and then except you're the better looking sister that's something you don't remember saying i don't remember saying you could be sisters or except you're the better looking sister could you have said those things i could not i do not see myself at all saying you're the better looking sister i could have said you could be sisters because it's consistent with my recollection saying you could be clones you're you're cloned identical twin i could have said sister and why can you not see yourself saying you're the better looking sister it's just not something i would say you would never say that something like that no i wouldn't say something like that why not uh it's just not me it's not you and i don't think it's uh i wouldn't want to go down that road what do you mean by that commenting on who's better looking between uh two women that would that be inappropriate i don't know if it's not who i would not feel comfortable with it you would not feel comfortable with saying to lindsay boylan that she's the better looking sister of lisa shields you know comfort level is based on the facts and circumstances and the relationship with lindsey boylan i wouldn't have felt comfortable saying that okay and you say it depends on the facts and circumstances in the relationship what facts and circumstances would make you feel comfortable saying something like that if i was talking to a friend who i knew for a long time was talking to a girlfriend as you've defined it as we've defined it mutually and how about to someone who's a staffer of yours an employee of yours or someone who works on you know underneath you yeah i don't make comments about uh physic comparing who's prettier better looking uh with staff you know the uh you look nice today uh that's one thing i am more free with men frankly more on the negative side the teasing joking side i think i have more license there to tease men who i know and i know they know it's just teasing and it's more for the benefit of the whole group you know but with female staffers this is not a this is not an area that i would be comfortable so comparing appearances and looks um for female staffers that's something that would not be comfortable for you i would not be comfortable saying you're better looking than this one would one of your discomfort or part of your discomfort be that they might feel that you're attracted to them they could feel that i'm disparaging someone else i'm complimenting them on their looks and uh could one of it your concerns be that they might think that you're coming on to them or positioning them is that one of your concerns that's why i think reader's clarification was important it's easier and safer i think when you're talking about appearance with clothing it's a nice outfit but personal attractiveness i'm not comfortable with um other than stephanie benton and lindsay boylan herself have you mentioned to anyone else that she looks like lisa shields not that i remember did you tell lindsey bolin at any point about how had also dated lisa shields i don't remember saying that it happens to be true but i don't remember that conversation are you aware of that well i don't know if it's true it happens to have been reported in the newspaper uh i knew lisa like 20 years ago in that ballpark i haven't spoken to her since so it has been reported in the newspaper i don't remember telling lindsay boylan that if she did google lisa shields that would probably be the first thing that came up now is that uh she supposedly dates that person uh but i don't recall telling her that okay okay when lindsay borland served as the chief of staff to howard zamsky do you remember ever inquiring with anyone as to whether lindsay borland would be coming to a particular event or any meeting any particular meeting i don't recall any particular inquiry but it would be commonplace i often inquired who was coming to what meeting and what of well who was coming to what meeting what event first of all i needed certain people at certain events and i would say does x think they're going because i need x to go to the meeting or i need x to go to the event so that is a common interaction so it's something you do often which is ask people who's going to be there is so-and-so going to be there yeah who is this person going to be there they have to be there this person should be there find out if this person thinks they're going uh if they think they're going tell them not to go if they if they don't think they're going tell them to go that's a daily occurrence so is that something you ever remember doing with respect to lindsey boylan i may very well have you may very well have but you don't have a particular recollection no but if the commissioner doesn't come to an event then somebody uh and i feel someone has to be there from that subject area and they say well howard zemsky is not coming i would then say it would be commonplace for me to say well then is lindsay coming if he's not coming that type of situation so it's commonplace but you don't have a specific recollection of doing it with respect to language right boil it okay um have you um ever hugged lindsey boiler i'm sure i have in what context in greeting hello goodbye events congratulations well done and would you do you recall hugging lindsey boyland um every time you met or said goodbye or just sometimes it more depends on the frequency of how long ago i just saw a person if i didn't see a person in a while then it's more likely to hug or if the person is the person upon meeting uh goes to hug then i will hug you know i'm i'm trying to make you feel comfortable uh so i will respond to your cues so if you walk in and you are commencing initiating an embrace i will embrace you so hugging people generally which also applied to ms boyland would depend on the frequency if you hadn't seen that person in a long time you're more likely to hug is that fair yes but with a general caveat of i hug a lot there are thousands of pictures of me embracing people it is part of my customary greeting maybe it's cultural maybe it's personal but i hug a lot in all situations women and men okay but uh maybe uh sticking for the moment with staffers uh whether you're likely to hug a staffer depend on if you hadn't seen them in a while or if they initiated a hug if they initiate a hug um do you ever uh or have you ever asked a staffer permission before hugging them usually not on a hug you say usually not do you ever remember asking i think a colloquial expression i have used is give me a hug got it so give me a hug maybe and then they would initiate it in effect just on the point to give context can you just sort of give circumstances governor where it's sort of if if there are occasions where say give me a hug what's going on in that moment give me a hug is more of a colloquial expression uh that would be in the moment uh ceremonial celebratory i don't even have a specific recollection of saying doing it tell you the truth but i'm familiar with the expression give me a hug how about kisses more in the personal context i do it more with my daughters because with them i have to ask for a hug they are not initiators of hugs unfortunately with me i'm sorry your question how about kisses uh with we'll just stop with staffers i uh will customarily kiss people who on the cheek who uh i feel it's appropriate and again i deal with the cues from people i recently fairly recently have started to say to women on occasion may i kiss you that's fairly recent uh more responsive to the shifting norms if you uh as you may call it but i'll do that on occasion may i kiss you before even kissing them on the cheek and you say uh the asking may i kiss you is a a more recent thing you do how recent we have a couple of years more if i don't know the person and before that uh you would on occasion kiss staffers on the cheek on the cheek and before that you may not have you don't remember asking may i kiss you before doing that not as a practice i may have but a few years ago with people who i don't know uh i would start asking may i kiss you and is that now as as of a couple of years ago is that in every instance do you ask that it's not in every instance it's more with people who i don't know uh and more with people who i uh more with people who i don't know and uh you know you sometimes there's a situation where you get a feel for people some people are much more outgoing and much more affectionate and they just you know they grab you when they're kissing you and they're hugging you you know more formal setting um so uh going back to lindsay borland have you kissed her on the cheek i probably kissed her on the cheek do you have any recollection of them no but it would be unusual for me we've been to a lot of social events together you know you do christmas parties etc uh it would be usual for me in relation to her to kiss her on the cheek on occasion so you don't have a particular recollection of it but it would be usual to kiss on the cheek at an event or or yes on occasion yes on both cheeks or one cheek good question uh probably one cheek and why do you say probably one cheek uh because i don't the the the two cheek kiss is uh more of an ethnic greeting so are there people you are more likely to have engaged in the two cheek kids versus the long chicas i haven't really thought through this area you know it's going to follow governor do you have a policy on the one no i don't think i've ever thought about kissing as much as i have in these past few minutes i don't have a a policy but i don't think i would have kissed it twice but you've said that the two-tick kiss is more of an ethnic greeting what do you mean by that i think italian people often kiss on both cheeks jewish people sometimes kiss on both cheeks i think there's a cultural greeting element to it but i don't think i don't think i would have kissed lindsey on both cheeks how about on the forehead i kiss women on the forehead on occasion and on what occasions um [Music] just as a a greeting appreciation thank you and so you do you recall um ever kissing lindsay borland on the forehead no but it's possible but it's possible um do you uh have you kissed other staffers on the forehead i saw a picture of me last night actually i was looking through pictures kissing congresswoman nita lowy on the forehead um i don't recall kissing staff people on the forehead but i would not be surprised that i have okay was your relationship with lindsay boylan such that you would joke around with her on occasion on occasion she was not an especially uh i was just on occasion sometimes but she wasn't when you were going to say she's not especially what were you going to say um it was uh we didn't i didn't interact with her that much so we also weren't in those settings where people would be more jovial but generally it's fair to say when she was in the role she was in the executive chamber and esd that you had a friendly relationship with her friendly friendly i did not have a i don't even recall having at any time a problematic relationship with lindsay that's one of the things that was so shocking she had issues with many many staff people but not with me not with me uh that's one of the things that was so shocking here you thought you had a good relationship with her yes never you hadn't perceived any problems no did you ever ask her about her personal life i met her husband i met her child she brought them to an event uh did you talk to her about her husband we chatted about him [Music] at one point his friend had a wife who was helping us in puerto rico with disaster recovery would you ask her about her husband's job well she the husband was in a hedge fund that worked with this other hedge fund manager whose wife was from puerto rico and was helping on the puerto rico disaster relief so it did come up did you talk to her about or joke with her about how much money he made a hedge fund person i don't remember it but was i capable of making a comment about a hedge fund person you don't specifically recall but it's not wouldn't be unusual to joke about hedge funders it would not be wholly unusual no okay did you ever show ms boyle in the boardroom in your office in the capitol i don't remember i know her story that she just up there when you say board room what do you mean did you show her your offices and uh you have described i think and we'll get to some of the documents of a standard tour uh of your office space in the capitol do you remember ever uh showing or giving lindsey boylan such a tour can you show me the document that we're referring to um we'll get to it i just want to see what your recollection is whether you remember ever showing her i don't remember it i saw a document where she says she was in the conference room there's a conference room so i don't remember that at all but i know what she describes you don't specifically remember showing her the things in the conference room no sir okay but you know the space she's talking about yes okay and is that the space that has the cigar box yes bill clinton yes sir okay and so do you remember showing her uh the cigar box from bill clinton no specifically her no but that wouldn't surprise you if at any at some point you did show it to her let's say governor to the extent what mr kim is asking is raising for you sort of if you have any type of a pattern or practice with respect to your conference room the uh if you visit albany you will see there's the outer office there's then an inner office which is stephanie's office there's then a conference room and then there's my office on the other side of the conference room the conference room in albany is much different than this conference room it is almost a museum of really magnificent artifacts and when someone comes in i do a a tour if you will which is standard and routine i've done hundreds of times it starts at the door and the first thing is the clinton memorabilia and there is a box of cigars it's actually not a humidor it's a little box like this that has his name on the top with a signed note card to me that says these are the last batch of cigars legally imported from cuba which means they were pre-1965 pretty the kennedy embargo so uh that's there there's then a bowl from clinton uh i was a cabinet secretary uh housing and urban development secretary to bill clinton he had this bowl designed for the cabinet members when they left an original fdr memento poster uh calling him where he is the progressive champion on an fdr everybody now talks about progressive progressive progressive fdr original poster i'm the progressive candidate american flag that ted kennedy got for me which was the flag that flew over the capitol the day i was confirmed at hud and senator kennedy got arrested so had it taken down put in a flag box a poster done by my daughter uh indian honeymoon fan fans from the cling yet klinget haida indian tribe as hud secretary went to all the different many of the different indian reservations because hud did the indian housing and they presented me with caribou hair honeymoon fans uh which are there so there's a tour that i have done uh just because i i think it's interesting and i think people find it enjoyable uh on that tour the first stop in the normal trajectory is the box with the card from president clinton no one has ever said to me i got the implication of monica lewinsky which is the implication that she drew no one has ever said that to me and it's been there for 10 years and i bet you have done this tour a thousand times in that period of time okay so you've done that tour that includes the cigars from president clinton many many times yes and so although you don't have a specific recollection of giving such a similar tour to lindsey boylan could have happened yes uh and you are no one's ever said it to you but no one's ever said brought up monica lewinsky when you showed them the cigar box cigars you are aware of the monica lewinsky story with bill clinton and cigars yes um i think we've been going like an hour and i could use a bathroom break that's sure let's tell from her face that this might be sorry he means that in a nice way don't take offense i do think you commented on our looks she looked she looked unhappy okay the time's 9 48 a.m concludes media one off the so record time now is 10 02 a.m this begins media two on the record good um governor how long did lindsey boland work as deputy secretary for economic development uh several a couple of years um you think a couple of years or not or so couples i frankly i don't i don't really know how long she was in that drug i see that job versus the chief of staff yes um do you remember the circumstances of her departure from the executive chamber yes what do you remember about that actually can i phrase that differently um because you may have learned since at the time she left what did you learn or know about her departure at the time i knew that there were a number of complaints against lindsay from staff people higher up staff people and subordinate staff people and this was a constant theme although she did not have issues with me i would hear about them from the others and there were issues about her coming directly to me and bypassing all the other staff people the senior staff and that she would keep coming to me so i would hear it that way they would say she keeps coming to you tell her she has to go through the chief of staff the chain of command but they were not about me i knew she had issues with the staff they had progressed to the level which surprised me where there were formal complaints that went to the general council and the general counsel interviewed her on these complaints and they were much more serious than anything i had thought about the meeting ends or she walks out in the meeting or she gets offended at the meeting and then calls me a couple of days later and the council says to do not go into any privileged conversations that you have with your counsel the [Music] she quotes my office i'm told not to talk to her and basically i'm then told don't talk to her she this is what happened we had a counseling session there were complaints the very serious i learned i don't know at that time was subsequent that esd wanted her terminated and she left the meeting upset resigned and then called back and said i want my job back the counts the council wouldn't agree to give her her job back she was then calling me to intervene with the counsel and governor let me stop you there when she you say she called you she called my office spoke to stephanie and said basically to stephanie as i understood it i want my job back i love the governor they the senior staff are not serving him well i can serve him better than they can i want my job back please tell them to call me i never call her back pursuant to the advice i got i did not feel comfortable not calling her back because i had had a very friendly relationship with her and i i said at the time like i would i want to even if i don't get into the job just on a personal level i want to call her back and say i'm sorry that this happened this way and uh but the advice i got was no no no stay out of it this was very serious i think they didn't want me saying because esd had recommended terminating her they didn't want me giving a contrary opinion and that was the last time i spoke to her well you didn't speak to her yes i did not speak to her so it was prior to that so let's unpack that a little bit so you said that you learned there were complaints about her and issues with her both senior and below her is that something you had heard before she left i had heard a constant din of lindsay issues just a constant din how long was that constant in i think as soon as she became the deputy secretary position and who conveyed this constantine of issues about lindsay borland it was just atmospheric okay atmospheric but someone must have it was virtually mr kim all of the senior staff can you name any particular people that you remember raising he uh had constant issues i heard about it because they would say to me tell lindsay to follow the chain of command which i did i would say to her please follow the chain of command get along with everyone let's play nice basically without those words did she uh on occasion come to you directly without going through other people apparently yes see but you would know if she came to you directly well you can call me directly and go through the chain of command you could have gone to the dir her boss her supervisor and said i want to call him and talk to him about factory and she said okay fine call him and talk to him about factory their point was she called and talked to me about factory i told her to do something they didn't know anything about it so there were occasions when she would call you directly talk about something you didn't know whether it had been run up the chain or that's right or not but that's right there are occasions where she reached out to you directly about issues but there are yes but that is that is the modus operandi people talk to me directly all the time it's up to them to check the boxes on the chain of command right so you heard uh a din of issues that people raised with you one of them was he comes she comes tells you things it hasn't been run up the chain or socialized or whatever the word would be difficult very difficult personally uh emotional just along those lines okay and then you've also mentioned uh some specific complaints that you said the council at the time was looking into was that alfonso david yes sir okay when did you learn about the issues that alfonzo david was looking into generally when they were telling me not to call her back which i was resistant to uh just on a human level they i don't think they got into specifics but they said these are very serious complaints and they were afraid that i would in some ways say say something in the conversation to diminish the complaint and they didn't want me to have that conversation and they had to communicate to me to stop me from calling that these are very serious complaints and you don't want to be a witness in these complaints so you heard about it that way yes okay and do you remember that the issue that uh alphonso david was looking into was right around the time she left or shortly before you remember him looking into some issues right before she left my understanding is at the meeting with him going through these complaints and again now that i know he had a termination recommendation from the agency signed by howard zemsky uh it was that's very serious i don't even remember a time where the council to the governor's office didn't follow the recommendation of the agency so he has a recommendation fire it was serious she gets upset as it was related to me in that meeting she leaves the meeting she sends an email that says i resign she then sometime after that meeting she then calls back the next day next two days next three days or something and says to the council i was what's the effect of i acted out of emotion i didn't mean it i want to come back he basically says no she then calls me to appeal that decision is the way i understood it and so this uh recommendation signed by howard zemsky termination recommendation have you seen that document only recently let me tell you right there have you actually seen a document signed by howard no i have not seen that okay i've seen one referring to i'm sorry i don't even know that the document referred to howard zemsky i think the document referred to esd was recommending termination so you have never you've never seen a document signed by howe zemsky with a termination recommendation i don't but i don't remember seeing howard zemski's name signed on that letter but i may be wrong okay and so at the time that alfonzo david is looking into this issue i'm just trying to figure out when were you informed of that before that at the time or after after i see not until i was being told don't call i see so she has left and then you're told don't call her back because whatever the reason don't call her back or don't call she left sends a letter of resignation calls the council back says i want my job back words to that effect he says no words to that effect she calls me to appeal the council's decision they come to me and say don't call her back okay and it's at that time you learn what's happened yes so it's you you're not hearing it or know about it before you'd learn later yes okay but before is you you have heard the din as you can constantly yes and that's mostly or some of it is about coming to you directly anything else everything just not pleasant everything like what what's everything just personal human dynamic difficult emotional uh always complaining just the whole repertoire of human relations but you're an exaggeration your interactions with her had been fine fine did you ever raise with her what's going on i said to her please it has to work as a team we're a team where's this effect it doesn't work it you have to work well with them because it has to work as a please just make every effort to try to make it work it'll be better for you it'll be more productive more enjoyable it's better for everyone so you were you you had these conversations with her how often did you have these conversations with her uh not that often a couple of times because her response was it's them it's them and my instinct was you know there's only so much you can do in one of these uh interpersonal situations uh so i raised it a couple of times i raised it in a positive way team etc uh and that was it okay um and when she said it was them who was she referring to who did you understand her to be referring to jill the rosier stephanie anyone who was in a supervisory position to her in retrospect when she was at empire state development it was just her and howard she reported to howard and she basically ran the agency and then she had just howard and she had a very good relationship with howard and she just ran esd deputy secretary you now have a whole infrastructure above you you have to go through four levels and i think that's what created the tension um so uh you never spoke to her after she left never have you spoken to her at all no have you seen her no so between ms boylan's departure and the time when she starts to tweet things about the executive chamber which happens in the beginning of december of last year did you have any discussions with anyone about lindsay boyle i did not talk to lindsey boylan i heard there were some conversations about her clashing with them still but just again generic then nothing specific do you remember that she you learning that she ran to challenge jerry nadler in a primary oh i knew that she ran against jerry natalie yes um was that the subject of discussions no among the staff okay um and when when you said general din was some of it around uh tweets you were sending or do you don't remember the specific uh no impetus in retrospect when i reconstructed i do did not know about her retaliation threat at the time or i didn't if they mentioned it to me i didn't remember it didn't register at the time but that's probably what prompted the renewed conflict so if you can turn your binder at tab 29 um this is one of her tweets and follow-on tweets from december 5th of 2020. and the top one she says most toxic team environment working for at new york of cuomo do you remember learning about this tweet in that time period december 5th i don't i'm not on twitter i don't read tweets if i read all the tweets about me i would pull out my hair whatever's left i don't remember when they would normally alert me to things i needed to know about in the press office i don't know when they uh first said to me you know lindsay is is taking this uh attack okay and by them you mean the press yes operations and who was that in end of 2020 that would be whoever was in the press they would brief me when i was going to do a press event on things that might come up so whenever they thought this might have come up with lindsay is when they would have briefed me on it but you don't you're not on twitter so the only way you would know is if someone told you yes okay and so uh you don't have a specific recollection of toxic team environment no okay and then if you look at the next tab uh 30 um it's more of uh more tweets from lindsay boyland uh now it's uh a week and a half later december 13. then she's now tweeting more about sexual harassment right and she originally says at the top my first experience of workplace sexual harassment was with when my mom got her first real office job and then going down she says yes at new york oklahoma's actually harassed me for years many saw it and watched i could never anticipate what to expect would i be grilled on my work which was very good or harassed about my looks or would be both in the same conversation this was the way for years uh et cetera et cetera she has i still love others do you remember learning about this tweet or this substance of this allegation uh that now she was saying they must have told me about it at the time i don't remember it but i'm sure they told me about it at the time you remember being told in substance she's now saying this yes and like you don't have a specific recollection but likely the press yes yes yes and just to be clear on this point governor in terms of what um mr kim just showed you at tab 29 which were a series of tweets on december 5th and then tab 30 which are tweets on december 13th do you remember having separate conversations about it between the 5th or the 13th or do you remember this together i don't remember any of it okay i'm just sure that at one point that reached the level where they said we he's going out there we have to talk to him about it you don't have even looking at this you don't have a specific recollection no they came in told me about toxic that you just have a general recollection at some point they said to the something to the effect of you should be aware yes she's saying yes um and then was there any discussion that you were involved in about how to respond to this the the yes well then it became a question uh what do we what what do i say when i go out there which was more after she wrote her magazine article okay so putting aside and we'll get what you should say if you're asked at an event press event or something about how what can what you and the executive chamber should do to respond it was about what i should say you know i am the responder right so it was about when they asked me what do we say okay right so putting that to the side how about should we do anything well that's all part of the same thing okay were there any discussions that you were part of where people said you were you just you or others discussed releasing documents relating to her issues i was not i do not remember having any conversations about releasing the items about the complaints against her i don't believe uh i was involved in that there was a protracted group discussion about what is the best way to handle this and what to say and what who was part of these uh protracted group discussions everybody and their mother okay everybody had an opinion and who like melissa derosa melissa had an opinion uh steve cohen had an opinion the press office had an opinion uh they then would ask outside advisers what's their opinion they then talk to lawyers what's your opinion then they talk to advocacy groups what's your opinion because you need to say something this is not an option ghosting nothing but uh obviously a high level of sensitivity has to be taken in what you say so that you don't uh you're not perceived as attacking her for saying it so they talk to time's up they talk to council uh female plaintiffs councils uh and everybody had an opinion um and by the way i think we wind up seeing nothing okay um but on the question of releasing the documents uh about her issues and the complaints were you part of any discussions i don't remember being part of that conversation did you remember learning about that that that had happened after the fact you learned about it after the field yes who did you learn that from i think i learned about it when it was in the newspaper and then we were talking about my response uh to the press and what was in the press and then who told you well you read in the paper uh and did you did someone in your staff confirm that it had been released yeah well yes they must have because they were saying it was accurate and who who confirmed for you that that happened the general liaison with me was the press office through this and who was in the press office at the time it would have been a jamian or as a party or i don't know if danny lover had left at this point or not um and do you know why uh they had not consulted with you before pub making public or sending out these files you know the there's such a constant banter with the press and constant assaults on twitter and they do a lot without me being involved i only get involved when i have to go out there and what am i going to say okay so it didn't you weren't surprised that they hadn't consulted with you before sending that out what was your reaction when you found out that they sent that out uh i asked them about it and they had i talked to melissa about it and they had uh thought about it talked to council about it but they wanted uh the facts out and they thought that uh what lindsay had said was totally contrary to the truth and that this was responsive and that the council said that it was responsible it's going to say don't want to get into privileged conversations okay um and what was it that she said was was what was your understanding that what was it that she said that was contrary to what was reflected in these documents that were released i don't remember if it was released before the medium piece or was it released after the medium piece you noticed before then what she was saying in the tweets i don't know exactly what she was saying in the tweets but that it was responsive to what she was saying in the tweets were you aware of what specifically she was saying in the tweets that it responded to but you were told in effect that yes we released it because it was contradictory yes okay and you said that who told you that council had been consulted i don't remember who could have been as a party could have been any of them and when they said council who did they what was your understanding of who they consulted they had consulted in-house counsel outside counsel special lawyers for female plaintiffs the time's up group i know they spoke to they were talking to everyone and so when you say in-house counsel who in-house counsel yeah you know specifically i don't know specifically you don't know who no did you have an understanding when they said in-house counsel who would have been i heard beth garvey but i don't know if that's who they were talking about how about outside counsel uh steve cohen they were talking to uh linda lacewell they were talking to uh just just be clear when you say they were talking to governor do you know what specific topics on this that they were speaking to them about no i just know that they were all talking okay so you were saying steve cohen linda lace while anyone else time's up person who's the time's up person do you know who it is no yeah you also mentioned a plaintiff's lawyer i heard i believe it was robbie kaplan but i'm not sure did you have any conversations directly with robbie kaplan on this subject of responding to lin lindsey boylan i don't recall having any conversations i may have i know her but i don't recall direct conversations but i may have it uh anyone else you remember being consulted did anyone tell you goer was consulted i don't remember that you said steve cohen who did you understand steve cohen to be representing at that time as a lawyer well i consider steve cohen representing represents me represents other people in the chamber so you viewed steve cohen as uh someone who represents you yes okay and other people in the chamber they you many of them they have relations that go back a long time with him and when you say other people in the chamber who else did you think or understand he would represent i don't know and when it's you when you say he represents you what do you mean by that that he is he's a lawyer started uh in an office that many people deem incredible u.s attorney's office um but i would uh consult him for legal advice and so he's a lawyer fair to say you trust his judgment most times most of the time and you would consult him as a lawyer yes okay uh not in any or have you ever retained him formally in any context we kid about the bill when the bill comes due does he send you bills he has not yet sent me a bill but he threatens that the bill is going to be very large when it comes so he's never actually sent you a bill not yet but he talks about it often as a joke no i think he's going to send me a bill for how many years of work could be multiple years okay but that's not a joke you actually think steve cohen will send you a bill i think he will work you know steve cohen i think he could but no engagement letter you know i've never had a formal engagement with him so more just want to sort of i may have done an engagement letter with him at one time i think okay when i may have uh it may have been uh moreland i may have done an engagement letter with him but i would have to check i don't i don't remember did he advise you personally on moorland i don't i don't remember moreland i'm sure your recollection is better than mine on that one um and so he's someone you turn to for advice a lawyer he has said threatened either jokingly or for real that he's gonna one day send you a bill but for many years he hasn't been with the executive chamber in a long time right right um did you specifically uh ask that steve cohen be consulted on issues relating to lindsey boylan i would have yes who who would you have told i would have told melissa i would have told linda lacewell in the normal course talk to steve and uh talk to steve uh as someone who is acting as your lawyer yes or their lawyer you know i don't i don't i don't know they also have a relationship with steve for many years did you understand that people in the chamber would call steve for his legal advice yes all the time okay who did you understand did that melissa did linda lacewell did i my councils did so he's just generally someone that you and others including melissa derosa and linda will call and consult with for legal advice yes you also consult him for general advice that may not be purely legal in nature judgment calls not so much he offers them but his legal advice i have more trust in than his political or life or public relations advice um on public relations will you did you have an understanding that josh blasto was being consulted josh blasto former press person was one of the people they were talking to about richard bamberger richard bamberger they were talking to a former press person anyone else not that i recall and do you know when they were consulting with lawyers um what they were told about the for the files that were going to be uh released oh i don't know that they were consulting with them about the files i don't know what i don't know the topic of the conversation um just to make sure we have it straight you did not learn about the release of those files until after that's my recollection yes but you did learn that or they told you that they had consulted various people prior to doing that they had consulted counsel before releasing the records they were talking to various people about the overall response okay uh but with respect to what they were telling council or various other people did you have any knowledge about the specifics of what they were being told no yeah during your administration were there other occasions when you know that your staff released any anyone's personnel records to the press i just want to how do you define personnel records just so we can start on this sorry any document relating to the terms and conditions or issues relating to someone's employment i can't miss clock i don't remember specifically but i believe we have if a person misrepresented their employment or something that happened that we would correct the record but i don't i can't as we sit here say who will win did you recall anything more about the circumstances other than it was somebody misrepresenting their employment we're not misrepresenting the employment but but misrepresenting the facts of that happened during their employment right um so it wasn't just their employment but they said they had a great working history in fact they were terminated for this reason you know how many times did that happen i don't remember the specifics but i believe it's happened a number of times um and do you recall any of the positions the person held that had their records released i don't know because i don't recall the specific per person but you know we've had thousands of people leave and uh thousands of people out there in the universe saying things running for office like in this occasion saying things and if they were not correct i believe we released the documentation correcting them and are you aware of any process that the chamber goes through in determining whether or not to release that information i don't know the law on releasing records did melissa derosa tell you that she expected any sort of negative reaction from releasing ms boylan's records on this complaint yes no there was a general conversation on what is the right response to the entire situation i believe it's not factually accurate i believe there are total falsehoods i believe it was slanderous to me and defamatory to me on the other hand there's a high level of sensitivity about what you say and how you say it because it could be a backlash in the public statement so there were ad nauseam discussions among them uh about what to say to such an extent that we literally wound up saying nothing different ideas you know we just all looked through the biden campaign i thought something that the biden campaign did which was intelligent was rather than biden saying i think this uh former staff people for biden said i think this female staff people i thought that was more credible than biden just saying so we talked about a number of alternatives but they were all debated to death and then we literally wound up doing nothing and i had like a two-line statement that i issued at the end of the day was it your idea to try to get women to sign on to some statements i thought it was more effective than just me going out there saying uh no none of this happened i thought it was more effective to have female staff people say make a statement that's what biden did that's what other politicians have done in this circumstance i thought that was an effective uh vehicle who did you discuss that with i discussed it with the press people and when you say the press people which press people it would have been as a party probably melissa um i like you um you said you were one of the things that you talked about was the public backlash you know and what what about attacking a complainant was there any discussion that you weren't a part of where anyone raised the possibility that it could be considered retaliation well that was part of the theory of the backlash now you have to remember the context for this in the concept in the conceptual if you look at this without any context you could say here's a person who's making a complaint uh the context here is this is a person who threatened retaliation who in a really outrageous text announces she's running for office and then happens to put out a totally different set of facts that are directly contrary everything that actually happened almost point by point uh and [Music] that this was lindsay either in her new race for manhattan borough president preemptively prophylactically protecting herself from the truth by asserting the charges the exact same opposite way uh toxic work environment she was accused of a toxic work environment by a subordinate or words to that effect she was accused of harassing people and using them as a punching bag those were all allegations against her she takes every allegation and puts it against me uh literally weeks after the election so when you say after the election uh after she announced she was going to run and many of my people understand uh life and politics right uh you announce you're going to run for office first question your campaign people say to you is what do we have to know and what do we have to worry about the way they would hear this is she said well this is what happened when i was in the state i had this meeting here with the complaints i quit i tried to get a job back and this was a reversal of everything that she had been all the complaints against her she made against me and uh so you're understanding that if a complainant has had similar complaints made against them that it's okay to make those public uh following any complaint that they make no but no but mr kim this is what i would say in a practical context because this is not an abstract textbook situation she ms boylan has said multiple times i have the resources i'm coming after a-holes i'm going to retaliate uh they believed she had a plaintiff's attorney working with her the question i would ask is why didn't she ever file a complaint if this was all true why didn't she file a complaint she had the plaintiff's lawyer they were trying to put together a class why if if this were true why wouldn't you file a complaint only one reason my opinion you don't want a real investigation it's a political situation not a real legal situation because the first thing your lawyer would have said was we have to file a complaint she's got 57 advisers call goer go to eeo go to division of human rights she's got a specialized lawyer why no complaint if this was true why no complaint so my question was um is it your understanding that if a complainant has had similar complaints made against them that it's okay to make public those complaints uh because they had no i didn't say that no so that that you don't agree with no you can you can be a perpetrator of sexual harassment and be a victim of sexual harassment you can be both um but that was one of the things you mentioned in terms of what was being discussed in terms of responding to lindsay bone that she had these complaints against her with so that was diametrically opposed you said or in conflict with her allegations one of the reasons why i was saying i believe the way a reasonable person would look at this situation in this environment in this moment she runs for office she said all good things about me before then wrote articles or beautiful tweets he respects women he's the greatest thing since sliced bread all of a sudden you were announced for office two weeks later all these allegations out of nowhere which mirror every allegation against you and your lawyer doesn't say a single word funny sure um i just want to clarify one point are you is your understanding that any of the complaints against miss boylan were that she engaged in sexual harassment oh i think you can read those allegations to include sexual harassment i mean i just read that top sheet but treated me as a punching bag i think there was a a suggestion about racial discrimination fired people illegally harassing bullying i think it's very possible that had those you pursued those complaints that you would wind up with racial discrimination uh very well sexual harassment you had men and women in there and again it was enough of a basis for esd to recommend termination you said there was a possibility of racial discrimination and sexual hara sexual discrimination do you know if that was referred to goer i don't do not know what happened once she was dismissed gee i don't believe if i made ms clark i don't believe when she says i resigned i believe that is an untruth you did not resign you resigned and then you called and you asked for your job back and they refused to give you your job back you then called the governor and asked him to intervene to get your job back he refused you resigned but you recanted if you got the cv of an attorney coming looking to come to your firm that says i quit uh working at sullivan and cromwell and then you called sullivan cromwell and said well yeah he quit but then he called and wanted his job back i think you would say well it's misleading or mischaracterization to say he resigned so my question was whether the allegations against miss boylan that you think could possibly race discrimination or sex discrimination were ever referred to goer i don't know if they were by the council because she was effectively terminated and you've raised questions about why she never filed any sort of complaint when you've been working on legislation for sexual harassment has anyone ever shared with you what percentage of women who say they've been sexually harassed have taken any sort of formal action or filed any sort of complaint yeah but this would be a different question what percentage of women who have gone public have hired a high profile plaintiff's lawyer are working to put together a class never ultimately file a complaint what percent of people who have retained you and you work to put together a class and then you never filed any complaint well i i'm not answering questions today um you keep referring to the high profile plaintiff's glare who did you understand or believe that miss boylan was working with i don't have the name with me but it was a high profile person as relayed to me by the way miss [ __ ] can't be that many because otherwise the firms would go broke right um do you have any knowledge as to what if anything miss borland may or may not have consulted with an attorney about no who was sharing information with you with speculation as to what ms boylan was doing with an attorney uh i think it's just something that they had picked up from google and the internet or i don't know you say they picked up who picked who picked it at the press office i think a reporter probably asked them this lawyer is representing lindsay but i'm just speculating i don't know how they heard it you said that you heard that she was putting together a class did you hear that i heard that from from the press office from reporters when you say class i want to make sure that everyone understands what you mean did you hear that she was reaching out to get other people a group okay is that what you meant that's what i meant okay not in the quote-unquote class action right that's right okay because that has a you're right good point council uh can you look at tab 10 and these are some documents including a memo from alfonso david ray confidential personnel matter uh and then emails relating to lindsey boylan and complaints about her um have you seen there's another memo sort of about seven or eight pages in that is also a memo from alfonzo david to julia koopieck oh sorry from julia could pick albanza david have you seen these documents um yeah let me say mr kim uh i made a mistake earlier when you said to me did the document i saw say that howard zemski authorized it and i said i don't remember seeing howard zemski's name i did see this document and it does have howard zimsky's name other than in uh with your counsel or in preparation for this testimony do you remember seeing these documents before no i saw this with my counselor prior and and recently in the past few days okay before that or around the time when lindsay boylan was um when she left do you remember seeing i don't remember seeing these documents do you remember anyone showing you documents as the documents that relate to the complaints against lindsay boyle no i think this is what they characterized to me at the time when i was telling you they said to me don't return a phone call because they're serious complaints i think they were characterizing this situation and it was your understanding that these were the documents that uh were inconsistent with whatever lindsey bowen was alleging which is why they released it i don't know what else they based it on do you know what was your understanding of these are the documents that were released i don't know what they actually released but you and you knew that what they released related to the complaints against lindsey boylan yes okay um actually can you turn to tab 11 which is actually um an email uh from richard as a party to zach fink with some of these documents with a memo two memos are you at uh are you at 511 and if you look at the first page you'll see it's in it's an email as discussed by the way let me just correct the record again i may not have made a mistake i may have seen this document which doesn't have howard zimsky's name on it so do you remember seeing these particular memos or documents i saw this document in uh in the last couple of weeks a couple of weeks okay so at the time governor okay you would not have been given the memos right okay so the all these documents you've seen recently meaning within the last month yes so at the time in we're talking december of 2020 do you remember seeing any documents relating to lindsey boylan i do not remember seeing any of these documents so at the time you would not have known or thought of that there was a memo that either howard mc was mentioned in or signed at the time you didn't uh see or know about any of those documents well when we were talking about the there are three time periods when it actually happens when lindsay leaves right and then the response to lindsay uh and what should the press response be at the time of the press response they were telling me about the actuality of her departure and i didn't review documents but they were telling me about the complaints etc okay so it was just being informed to you it was being characterized to you yes described to you yes and were you aware so you haven't other than in your prep with your counsel you haven't seen the version of documents that was sent to reporters that is my recollection and if you look at page two there's sort of white out and handwritten anonymization of people esd official one especially two do you remember seeing any memo like this with redactions i do not remember seeing any memo like this at the time okay at the time and do you remember at the time having any discussions about some of the documents being redacted before being sent to reporters i don't remember having that conversation and if you go to the third page of this one memo from julia kupiec to alfonzo david is privileged draft privilege and confidential attorney client privilege communications any discussion or knowledge at the time about the documentary i do not recall seeing this document at the time but any discussions at the time that documents that were provided to reporters were marked privileged and confidential i do not remember any conversation that i was part of did you know or hear whether these documents were provided to reporters on the record or off the record i don't remember having any conversation about that did you hear from anyone that some outlets didn't want it no and that the um the press office sent it in any in any event no did you express a view one way or the other after you learned that files uh of this nature had been sent out to reporters when you say files you mean documents okay um did you express the view one way or the other when you learned that documents relating to lindsey boylan had been sent to reporters no but but i didn't we never really got into that conversation i didn't know what the documents were they said that they had done it they said that they had spoken to council about it it was responsive i didn't get into it more than that you knew they related the complaints that had been made against lindsay barlin i knew basically what it said in the paper okay you mentioned earlier that one of the things you did do was um talk about um sort of uh drafting a letter uh from former staffers right did you draft that yourself or draft a draft of that yourself i participated in drafts there was it was a circulating revolving draft where everybody put in two cents and then the next person took out four cents and then the next person put in two cents and it was just uh a continuous talking to yourself exercise but you personally participated in some of the draft advising i'm sure i did and generally your practice how do you draft documents material do you type yourself do you hand write dictate all of the above i don't type myself i will dictate or hand write and correct and you have a recollection with respect to this document the letter uh proposed letter how you participated in its drafting or revision do you remember writing handwriting something or dictating or we had a number of conversations because i didn't really know the facts here so there were a number of conversations that i talked to with people to get their two cents uh there was then a draft that started circulating as i said mr given the drift went on forever uh there was no consensus on the draft everybody had a different opinion and we did nothing we wound up doing nothing for myself i ascribed to the lincoln theory president lincoln would read an article in the newspaper that totally infuriated him where he was accused of all sorts of things he would sit down hand right a long response letter and then crumple it up and throw it up it was just cathartic for him to express the outrage and the truth and then just you know what's the point i'm over it so that's also part of these drafts for me anyway but uh at the end of the day we did nothing because it was such a complicated uh issue that we just did nothing and do you remember handwriting this letter can we go to a document just so specifically because i think he's let me ask him a question i don't remember handwriting any document uh i know i participated in drafts i don't know if i started it or if i was someone else started it and then i chimed in okay let's take a look at tab 34. [Applause] and this is a um a long uh email from stephanie benton to linda lacewell that gets forwarded to judy mogul um and it's a it's a draft of a letter or an op-ed um and is it when stephanie benton let me take that back as a matter of practice do you sometimes ask stephanie benton to send this yesterday and if she sends something free uh substantive like this is fair to assume it's coming from you uh yes she normally says it's from me but right this one just has the text so if you could sort of i know it's somewhat long but if you could skim it and see if you know this looks like one version of this was a version but this has input from other sources because this has things that i wouldn't have known okay so can we look to the first paragraph here and it says danny whoever served as direct it it's a proposed letter that comes from danny liver kathy calhoun alfonso david right is this is that something you remember thinking that those three could be people who could that's what this is saying there would be three i had suggested frankly women this is alfonso david danny lebron kathy calhoun are women are other women you yes no i'd suggest just women i suggest women yes i thought that's what i'm pretty sure that's what the biden campaign did but and that's what i was thinking of if you go down to the third paragraph here it says the fact that she served as an advisor for the governor for nine months in those nine months there were no less than six complaints against ms boylan um did you know that there were six complaints no that's why i said this had to be done with input from other people i didn't know that you didn't know that yourself but people inputted it i had there had to be because i didn't know that and then um complaints against ms boylan african-american and white women you remember that or do you see that here i see that okay is that something that you played a role in putting in there no because i wouldn't have known that i didn't know about who the complainants were do you think it was important to note the race of the complainants well one of the accusations by ms boylan was i'm surrounded by white men which that's what someone i told you no yeah that i'm surrounded by white men governor cuomo sits there at the coveted briefing surrounded by white men that's not factually true and that's one you want to create the opinion that i'm biased or i don't have a diverse staff i mean that's not true uh but i don't know the the point of this did you think it was important to note that one of the complainants was an african-american woman i didn't know there was an african-american woman so i couldn't put it in but you knew it was in a draft well yeah as i see it now yes i don't know that i reviewed this draft all that carefully because it was never going anywhere so i don't read drafts that are circulating among people until it's a final draft because otherwise it's a waste of time they will circulate 50 drafts among themselves in a constant revolving chain and the drafts are wholly irrelevant because anyone can add anything in at any given time and change the whole draft so i just don't engage in them until they we say here's a final and then i'll actually read it and this is in that dishwasher washing machine of draft circulation but in that dishwasher washing machine draft circulation if it's it's coming from stephanie benton to going out and saying last um it would have been likely something that you would have reviewed yeah last of the series but we never got to a final you would have reviewed a letter like this that stephanie benton was sending well the last doesn't mean the last it means of those circulating this is the way i read it is this is the last of the current spin cycle now but my question was for stephanie benton generally sends things that on your behalf right this isn't yes i don't believe this was a final draft but it was something you would have reviewed i don't remember reviewing this one because frankly i think i would have said not to include alfonso david so you think now you didn't review this because it includes alphonso data well if i did i would have my suggestion was just have female staffers respond that's was my main point let me ask it differently then do you remember the letter any version of the letter you looked at having the substance of six complaints uh one of the complainants being african-american and one being a white woman do you remember that being in any version that you looked at i don't i don't remember that i remember these words punching bag degrading insulting bully i remember that yeah but you don't remember african-american i don't remember african-american i knew i knew that i don't remember being in the letter although you remember that lindsey boyland had said that it's white men yes so do you remember thinking well one way to respond to that is to show that one of the uh i don't remember that no i don't remember that and then it goes on to say that is boiling people have said was rude treats people like children punching bag degrading insulting harassing and a bully that you remember i remember those words or words to that effect yeah and those those are things that you would find inappropriate uh i thought the words i thought they were worse words than that and i thought that it said racial discrimination so my memory is off i thought the complaints against her included racial discrimination so my memory is off and so do you also recall feeling like this letter should respond to that no i i think or sorry if improper do you remember thinking that the letter should disclose that she had been in effect accused of racial discrimination no but i would have gotten that from a draft that i reviewed and that's how i remembered it so either i am remembering it incorrectly or there was a different draft that had it um but also to what end mr kim it never went out i mean how many drafts do you write were you just a cathartic allah abraham lincoln but never go out were you advocating that it actually go out in some form i thought if we were going to do a response a response from female staff would have been the best vehicle a la joe biden and it wasn't going through multiple drafts just as catharsis correct well there was a this was not even from all women i would have argued against putting in uh alfonso david in the letter and they were having a discussion amongst themselves with this very large group with different opinions and i'm sure for everyone it was a little cathartic because they were all upset about it you know many of them had personal uh situations with lindsay so uh you know it's a person by person but i think a lot of them part of it was probably cathartic was that the intent in drafting a letter and having it go through multiple iterations and having a large group of people involved was the intent to just have a catharsis for the staff no the intent is theoretically to come up with a final that would actually go out the i think it winds up just being cathartic for people and everybody gets to express their opinion but it's very often that we start drafts that go nowhere i just want to finish on that point and why is that is there sometimes there's an idea yeah everyone has an idea and you have an idea okay do a draft send out your draft june gets the idea he says he doesn't like that he puts in his idea rita gets the next draft she takes out both of your ideas so it's this this washing machine of drafts that just continues i don't really get engaged until there's a final and we're actually going to do it and we just never got to that point did mr rosa ever speak with you as to whether she was in favor of sending out a letter that had details about ms boylan's departure and issues such as that everybody had a different opinion about everything i don't remember [Music] you have a spectrum of more aggressive response more conservative response and then you have 15 people along that spectrum and i don't know who was where but there were just too many opinions to ever conclude a document and we did nothing um if you go to the second page of this it says ms boylan claims the governor made comments about her looks you see that paragraph ironic given that ms boylan referred to the governor as handsome and told staff that she loved the governor do you remember that being in the draft of the letter i don't remember it was someone else's memory i think that about the handsome point uh but i don't remember if i don't remember the particulars okay because i remember the handsome sort of someone told you that stuck out with she referred to you as handsome yeah it resonated had you been there when it doesn't happen often to me mr kim but when it does i take note uh did she say that to you she said it apparently in a text to me you don't remember the text uh i remember it uh now but someone else remembered it first and it says here that that ms boyle's conduct was unprofessional and inappropriate intimate behavior did you consider her calling you handsome as inappropriate behavior i think what they're talking about is the next sentence okay but let me ask the question first the uh calling you handsome do you think that's inappropriate uh i think no do i find it offensive no okay so that's not the calling the handsome part is just in there it's not because it's inappropriate that's not what this is saying you're misreading it it said inappropriate intimate behavior colon sitting on co-workers laps kissing them in public presence of other co-workers even the extension companies send multiple text messages to apologize to a male staff member okay then on that sitting on co-workers labs is that something you had heard happen no what i did hear was she sat on the lap of a person named uh and kissed him she had been drinking he was highly offended complained she called him the next morning and apologized profusely to stop him from forwarding the complaint who did you hear that from josh blasto was there and so this is a reference to that yes okay um has any member of your staff ever sat in your lap not as a general rule but uh i wouldn't be surprised uh at a social event or something somebody may have sat on my lap who who do you remember sitting on your lap at a social event i don't recall anyone specifically but you know i have people who worked with me 14 years 10 years to go to their weddings we do social events we do christmas parties uh you know i don't if somebody would have sit on my lap you know i wouldn't i wouldn't uh push them off you know but as a general rule no but you do do you remember anyone in particular sitting on your lap i don't remember anyone in particular i can tell you this i don't remember anyone i don't remember sitting on anybody's lap kissing them they said they were going to complain and i had to call them the next morning and apologize for what i did that never happened has stephanie benton ever sat in your lap oh she may have but i don't remember but you may have in uh on a on a boat cruise in downtown manhattan you remember sitting on your lap we did a i don't remember sitting on my lap we did like an office cruise social event uh on the hudson river i don't remember her sitting on my lap but she may have i know her for 14 years you know she's uh i've gone through a lot with her uh it may have been an event where she sat on my lap but i don't recall it how about annabelle walsh does she have a set on your lap she may have she may have animated the same thing she's a friend she's worked with me for probably seven eight years something like that we've gone through a lot together how about danny lever that she ever said i don't remember her ever sitting on my lap either how about melissa derose i don't remember her ever sitting on my lap okay but nobody can you just want to leave out i understand how it works for you but nobody where the next morning i called and apologized and said i am sorry for what i did and offending you right i understood i didn't ask that i wasn't trying to leave that out i know but that's that's the point of that paragraph okay um do you see um and later in the letter it talks about coincidentally a political campaign consultant is also a consultant to uh jimani williams a political opponent of the governor see that is that something that you were aware of at the time i was aware that her i don't know at what point i became aware of it but that hurt is a uh not is a was a who had conversations with that's something you knew at the time no i said i didn't know at what time i became aware of that i see so in december of december 16 of 2020 do you know what this was a reference to it's also true that the consultant worked for jimani williams and for the working families party which is the coalition of many of the people who are political opponents to me and have been part of orchestrating uh and resonating the complaints against me that's what you thought in december of 2020 no i said i didn't have that knowledge then that's what you think now that's what i know now there were conversations between which created this narrative and the and they had communications on multiple occasions at the time which raises significant ethical and legal issues and who's that consultant uh and where did you learn this that they were having multiple communications with i learned that from my staff who in your staff well it's a matter of public record works for lindsey boylan worked for the attorney general's campaign any investigation would have seen that fact because it's in both filings uh it's a matter of fact that was a tish james was working for and then i know from my staff that was having conversations with um do you either have you heard either from your staff or anyone else whether it's in touch with charlotte bennett i have not heard that have you heard or from your staff or anyone else that had advised or pushed charlotte bennett to make her complaint well as a consultant to the boiling campaign you then have the attorney that the boylan campaign consulted uh and other people associated with the boiling campaign so did uh make a network with certain individuals i don't know who did what do i have the belief and understanding that there were multiple networkings from the boiling campaign to other complainants and political officials who have been involved in this matter yes but you're also aware that charlotte bennett first raised her issue with people in your staff in june of 2020 correct yes okay and that was six months before lindsay ballin any tweet from lindsey boy yes but as you're aware to the extent the facts matter what she said at that time charlotte bennett is markedly different than what she said post lindsay boylan right you know that we'll get to that the question was uh simply in in you were aware that in june of 2020 charlotte bennett had raised an issue about interactions with you correct that had nothing to do with what she then said post lindsay boiler the question was simply you were aware though that in june of 2020 she had raised issues with members of your staff relating to an interaction with you i was aware that she said at that time i did not sexually harass her i did not make inappropriate advances she considered me a friend and that i was paternalistic and a mentor that's what she said that's your understanding of the extent of what she said yes and then a much different story post the lindsay boylan announcement uh have you seen or had read to you the notes that uh judy mogul and jill de derosier took of their conversation with charlotte i haven't seen them or read them no you have not they've been produced i was going to say and with respect to don't talk about any conversations that you've had with council okay okay on that issue except well we can we don't those notes have been produced and they've been described and i'm talking about conversations with council about them okay you made reference to you understand that there were communications between and which of your staff members told you about that uh multiple i think there were multiple conversations multiple conversations between your staff and somebody else or multiple conversations between and which of your staff members told you about conversations they were involved with about this uh for sure melissa de rosa and what did melissa de rosa tell you uh that she had conversations with uh who said that he had a relationship with uh said orlais saying the campaign isn't advancing these harassment complaints it's all lindsey boylan on her own and uh that there was an issue where the press secretary quit subsequently because she felt that these were not bona fide complaints and didn't want to advance them i'm not sure exactly who said what in that cluster and i'm just trying to understand what you were alluding to are you suggesting that you said this to me said this to mr rosa to try to advance the claims against you i'm just trying to understand no i'm just saying the as a matter my what i heard was says said the campaign's not advancing these complaints uh period fast forward the campaign does advance the complaints uh and the press secretary then leaves for what i believe press secretary says she was uncomfortable advancing the allegations because she asked miss boylan about it miss boylan did not have any bona fide evidence who conveyed that to you uh i heard that from melissa derosa did mr rosa tell you that she asked to reach out to i don't know how those conversations went um do you remember that after versions of these this letter was circulated there was a discussion about something shorter that's more there were multiple discussions about multiple things do you remember a discussion about a letter similar to the one that was sent out for tom brokaw i there were so many conversations of so many options i didn't even pay any attention so if you go to tap 35 and you're not on this and i understand you don't really use email but um there's a email exchange including to melissa derosa talk with some text from a letter for that was used in tom brokaw and then talk of doing that instead of the longer letter yeah i'm not aware of this but i doesn't shock me as i said they were everybody had an opinion do you remember there being discussions about trying to get as many as 50 people to sign on to a letter i don't remember that anyone tell you that we're trying to get they may have people but again mr kim there were so many ideas and options and discussions you know i just tuned out it was all irrelevant okay if you go to tab uh 36 [Applause] and if you go to the email on the second page there's one from stephanie benton to linda lace while copying melissa derosa with a long list of people and it says so this is progress how do we get him 50 plus names would be great to keep his mind on this path and would be a real shot in the arm if we can get him names in a.m is that reading that jog your memory at all about stephanie benton and others talking to you about getting 50 aims plus no except that is consistent with what i said to you which is my idea was get female staffers to sign a letter do you remember and this email references keeping his mind or your mind on this path do you remember people trying to get you along this path as opposed to a longer letter i thought it was my idea to get the staff to sign the letter i never had suggestion about a long letter short letter or a letter that's uh was more of the type we saw earlier versus the tom brokaw letter you don't remember i don't remember hearing tom brokaw or a supportive a positive short letter versus a longer letter no but i wasn't i wasn't wet short or long or you know positive not positive i just thought the vehicle of female signators was a good idea beyond that you don't have a recollection no and then they were all talking to among themselves about you know what to say how to say it but this is all to no point if i may add mr kim right how many drafts of papers do you do on a filing that turn out totally irrelevant you know 15 ausas give you their ideas then you say thank you very much but we're doing it this way this email is from miss benton to miss lacewell and it's talking about getting the 50 plus names and if you go on the next page after a long list of names it says send to linda tell her ask 50 names to sign the following letter and then in quotes there's a there's a statement um did you draft that portion no do you know who did i do not know that's a fairly innocuous that's the saying that's on our pin i didn't characterize it one way or the other i'm just asking if you drafted them yeah i don't send this to linda and ask her 50 names to sign the following letter i may have i don't recall other than discussions of a possible letter do you remember uh discussions about anything else to do in response to lindsay boylan's allegations no any discussions about identifying and circulating the positive things she has said about you and the executive chamber i don't remember but it may be a good idea how about identifying and publicizing the threatening texts that i think you mentioned earlier that she had sent to people i don't remember that either but i think her threat i don't remember this at the time i'm telling you to this as we sit here today i think her threat of retaliation and then her retaliation are kind of relevant right governor on that point where you you've mentioned this a few times about the threat of retaliation if you could just provide some context for what the texts what you understood they were related to what the issue was she we passed during covid the election law requires that you must go out and get 50 000 signatures pick a number to sign an election petition to put you on the ballot to get a signature you have to go knock on the door hello i'm ann clark hi are you a registered democrat yes i am would you sign this petition or you do it in a shopping center grocery store or something like this covid you can't go knock on people's door and we don't want all this interaction i reduce the number of signatures that are required to be on the ballot statewide for every candidate i don't remember the numbers forty thousand down to ten thousand or something okay five thousand but it was every candidate in the state did you reduce the number of days we may have okay but the point is you don't want a lot of interpersonal contact we reduce the number of signatures required lindsay apparently i didn't know this at the time response to that saying basically i know this was directed at me we will be okay anyway but important my language something like life is about getting even with a-holes and i have the resources to do it i think she even used the word retaliation in there you must have it yeah if you want to turn to tab 34 it's later in that letter that we were looking at if you look at page bottom of page two to three top of three that's what you're referring to right it was in the draft matter the future is coming after [ __ ] absolutely not helpful please relay that while we are okay i see what the point is here and i will find ways to respond the point is here was not had nothing to do with her personally she's one of you know 2 000 elections i'll find ways to respond life is long and so is my memory and so are my resources i mean she makes that threat and then she follows up and she does it i'm going to shoot you and then three months later somebody shoots you what is it normally people would find that uh factually interesting no this is what you're referring to that's the part of the letter i don't know if that's the full text is that the full text no there are we we have the full text um do you remember any discussions about looking into her donors charlotte lindsey barlins no okay how about looking into like getting the list of her vendors no i know it was looked at to the extent that they identified but that's all public information it's on the record how about looking for evidence of campaign fraud no did you direct anyone to do that no and so we talked earlier about one of the things you talked about with your staff was how to respond to if you got questions about lindsey bonner's students what do you remember the advice being or the discussions you had the advice was all across the lot they circulated dozens of drafts uh i agree to a two-line statement basically that i put out and so if you can look at tab 31. and this is a text exchange that includes melissa derosa josh blasto daniel ever rich bamberger steve cohen linda lace well richard gaza party peter jamin are these some of the people you're consulting with during that time this is the some of the people consulting with themselves and then if you look at the second page they've drafted uh some possible responses yes i heard about the tweet about the comments or supposedly made and there's just no truth to it or yes i heard about the tweet there's just no truth to it it also looks like they're preparing you did you comment on her appearance it says there's just no truth to the tweets and then a statement i support women having the opportunity to speak out i believe in transparency but there was nothing inappropriate that happened here you see that i see that okay is that sort of some of the back and forth that was going on before you i didn't pay attention to the back and forth but this is now getting down to more like two lines and i eventually did two lines i don't think these are the two lines yeah um if you look at the last page of this steve cohen has uh some thoughts about actually look at the second to last as well uh linda lacewell says does he get away with not answering if he commented on her appearance and steve cohen says i think going down that path doesn't end cleanly no doesn't make sense yes invites another question it sounds funky and a quote i often comment seems similarly weird the problem is lb doesn't mean what she says she must mean he made a comment that was an inappropriate sexual innuendo to that the answer is strong it didn't happen but you're forced to unpack it to get to the direct no you see that yeah do you remember i'm just gonna say and i know for the record the governor is not on this pin understood yeah i don't know what they're talking about do you remember having discussions with anyone about how to answer that question if someone asks did you comment on her appearance no i don't remember any conversations like that i remember this wound up being a two-line sentence and that's what we released yeah or you said it actually but um yeah um at the time in december if asked did you comment on her appearance you couldn't have just said no right did i comment on her appearance well it's going to get into your point about the clothes versus might i have commented on what is the comment uh you look nice today what is that that would be that conversation right um on the comment here from steve cohn about that the suggestion was that he made a comment that was an inappropriate sexual innuendo in your mind does a comment for comment about appearance to be inappropriate does it need to be about sexual innuendo no i don't think so you can say inappropriate things about someone's appearance even if it's not it doesn't have sexual innuendo i think that's right so if you go to tab 32 this is actually [Applause] a transcript of the press conference if you look at page 12 out of 17 and at the top at 34 minutes 43 seconds you're asked by zach fink about the tweet and you say i heard about the tweet and what it said about comments that i had made it's not true zach look i fought for and i believe a woman has the right to come forward and express her opinion express issues concerns that she has but it's just not true that's the short statement that you made right i assume yes and in this type of context if you've had some prep with staff about things about questions you might get do you generally go out with something written or do you after prep have it in your head well it's only two lines two lines i can have in my mind so this is the type of thing you kept in your yeah and when you said um it's just not true zack what's the it here she at this point there was just the limited tweet about sexual harassment right actually can we go back to have him look at the tweet so he has that in front of him tweet so this is the press conference on the 14th so if you just turn us to the team what time is it the press conference no the uh 33 14 and then the tweet is tap 30. yeah i got it it's zach says accusation by a former raider of yours that accused you of sexual harassment and said that it happened over a period of years i want your reaction to that i heard about the tweet and what it said about comments that i made and it's not true the it refers to sexual harassment and also go if you could look over at um if you go to 30 go to tab 30. [Applause] yeah cuomo sexually harassed me for years many saw it and watched i could never anticipate what to expect would i be grilled in my work or my looks or harassed about my life or harassed about my looks so the it refers to sexual harassment had you seen this the full tweet before the press conference i probably did had you ever grilled her on a work grilled is your word did we have conversations about her work of course sometimes you criticized it criticized is your word uh would we have discussions about the work do i ask questions about the work yes i asked questions about the work she wasn't perfect she was very good she was very good the i don't know that she was accustomed she was not all an attorney uh and i don't know that she was accustomed to the drilling down on questions right we want to give plants grant to rebuild are they going to create jobs are there more jobs than are there now do they repay you know i i don't know that she was familiar with the drilling down on questions but she was very good she's very good sometimes she could do better and everyone can do better right so at some point in february of this year um did you become aware of lindsay boyle and uh publishing a longer piece in the medium yes with more detail yes how did you first learn about that the press office would have told me about it do you remember being in a meeting where it literally posted and people saying she just posted something no it may have happened but i don't know okay and have you read it i have read it since yeah uh was it so you don't remember a meeting where uh you and members of your staff were uh preparing for something else nursing home stuff and then it posting and then people reading it aloud i don't remember that but it may have happened that happens all the time you know people post if you go to tap 53 it's the this is the medium post and it's a long piece and obviously you're free to read all of it or as we go forward but just focusing on her allegations uh it starts off with the let's play strip poker and are saying that on a plane ride you had said uh sarcastically or you had said let's play strip poker and she said that's exactly what i was thinking do you remember anything like this happened yeah let's first on this piece i don't believe she wrote this piece i know her voice i know how she writes i've read many things that she's written i don't think she wrote this piece if you look uh which i'm sure you have her campaign hires a woman named who is a uh writer who specializes in sexual assault etc are you familiar with this really doesn't matter familiar with it or not all right it actually does but uh and not for the purposes of today's test well and uh she also posts on medium let's play strip poker that never happened i've never played strip poker i've never used this use the expression let's play strip poker that never just pause there you've never in your life said strip poker or let's any version i've never said let's play strip poker never in your life i've never played strip poker no not whether you play in my life i never remember saying let's play strip over or or the word strip poker i don't ever remember saying strip poker uh we're flying home on a taxpayer-funded jet ooh sensational there is no taxpayer funded jet it's a uh 1974 propeller plane if you were on the plane you would know it had propellers because it's a dual propeller plane i don't think you'd call it a jet when and she was on the plane a number of times lindsay very hard to miss twin propellers would you agree with me just as a matter of fact okay yeah it's not it's not trying to be rude but okay about me i know no i'm just asking so it was not a taxpayer event he was seated facing me so close our knees almost touched it is impossible to sit on that plane the seats face each other uh they're only basically it's a very tiny plane it's impossible to sit on the plane without the knees almost touching there are two seats facing each other but it sounds sensational his press aid was to my right state trooper behind us by the way none of those people heard strip poker she says whatever she says she said governor cuomo creative culturalism under the section of his own bullying so parents only condone do you want the governor to go through this piece by piece look i have i have parts that i was going to ask but it's also this also is an opportunity for you know if he wants to talk through it i know at other times when i focus on one part you and the governor have suggested that i deliberately didn't focus on other parts so i'm on this one i'm happy for him to go through it or i can have focused on particular allegations so the strip poker um never happened you've never said that right at work okay if you go to page two at the top parts of a supposed confidential personnel file were leaked in an effort to smear me that's one version the other version is she's making statements to the public in the middle of a campaign which were not true about her employment in public service and what is the duty to correct those statements ausa says i tried the most important organized crime case ever in the southern district totally not true but they're running for d.a and they say that is there should the u.s attorney's office say that actually isn't right and they're running for office and you're going to vote and the voter has a right to know but uh ron kim spoke out publicly bob de blasio said bullying is nothing new de blasio said a lot of things about me as you know governor's aides were attempting to disparage me nobody attempted to do anything she was the aggressor who threatened retaliation etc uh right the elisa shields we just post before lisa shields there's a reference to a first encounter governor came at january 6 2016 at an event madison square garden new pen station farley complex he stopped to talk to me i was knew on the job surprised by how much attention he paid me do you remember seeing her at no at this event no but it would be normal for me to say hello to staff when i'm at the event that's what i do next allegation is my boss soon informed me that the governor had a crush on me had you ever said that i'd never said that to howard zemski and i don't know why he would say that have you ever asked howard zemsky whether he said that to her no howard and lindsay had a complex relationship so i don't know why he would say that but i haven't asked him since so you don't know whether howard zemski said that to him or not that's right governor touched my lower back arms and legs i may very well have touched the lower back let me take a photo began keeping tabs on my whereabouts so um uh i have a note saying that court reporters informed us that we've hit the two-hour mark okay i know we're in the middle of this letter but maybe we take a ten minute break okay times twelve people exhausted sorry it must be the video times 12 35 pm media 3 on the record governor when we took the lunch break we were in the middle of lindsey boyland's medium piece which is tab 53 yes sir i think if you when we broke you were starting to address the part on page i don't know it doesn't have page numbers but one two three four where it says i had complained to friends that the governor would go out of his way to touch me on my lower back arms and legs i think it's right above the picture of the next page okay all right above the picture of the okay okay and so on that allegation had you um touched her on the lower back arms legs i had not gone out of my way to do it if i did it it was incidental you take a picture with somebody you may put your hand on their back an arm i don't know what that means legs i don't remember touching our legs but it was only incidental i never went out of my way to do it the next is senior staff keeping tabs on whereabouts and that that you had talked about before people asking where they are i think this is more of her and the senior staff but they ask where are you going to be there's a meeting okay and then if you go to the next page after the text chain there's uh her discussion about the senior staff employees gathered at the empire state plaza convention center in albany to celebrate the holidays and that's when she says she was called to your office and there was the the cigar box do you remember that party december of 2016. i don't remember that but that would have been the annual christmas party it's about 500 people at the party and well that's it's about 500 people at the party do you remember her coming up to your office uh during or after that party i don't remember that but you have 500 people in the party so you have a lot of the senior staff there a lot of students when i go back to my office and i just need to work on something i'll say you know uh can you get x to come and if you're in a party or if you're in your office they would just call you to come so that's not unusual to call someone up a staffer you have to remember the state campus they call it it's like a college campus it's like eight buildings they're all connected by underground tunnels so if you're in one of those buildings i'm at one end if i'm going to have a meeting if i say you know we're going to talk about x can you ask ann clark to come over you might be in your office at the other end of the campus and you come over but you don't remember specifically lindsey bowling coming that day then at the bottom it says uh his inappropriate justice became more frequent he gave roses to female staff for some valentine's day and arranged to have one delivered to me the only one on my floor um is it true that you uh have uh on in certain years had roses delivered on valentine's day i've gotten into trouble for not sending roses now i'm getting in trouble for sending rose what happened here is i had a public relations friend who told me one year he said i'll give you a great idea what i do on valentine's day i send women one rose in the office and it's a nice gesture i told stephanie years ago why don't we do that on valentine's day send the senior staff one rose i didn't even know we still do it and she must have just gone down the senior staff list and sent the roses it's one rose that is disconnected from the picture i didn't send the rose and the picture of me the picture is when we do an event if there's a staff member at the event they send them a picture pro forma afterwards and on the rows uh is that something that stephanie benton handled every year yes there's nothing to do with the power dynamic or anything she makes a list of the senior staff she sends them a rose did did you look at the list of who got it no did you know who got it no do you have a sense of where uh the women who got it sat in the building was it this floor versus other floors i am sure she just went down the top 20 or 30 people lindsay because of her dual hats is the only senior person who sits at esd and that's why she would have been the only person on her floor because she sits at empire state development there are no other senior staff there do you understand what i'm saying yeah do you know if the year that she received the rose she was already deputy secretary of dual roles or just chief of staff i don't know my guess is she was deputy secretary and if she was just chief of staff to um howard zamsky would there have been a reason for her to be depends where the cut off was even as chief of staff she came to senior staff meetings because economic development is like our main portfolio and she was chief of staff tozemsky but she basically ran that agency and howard was in buffalo so he didn't come to many meetings and he sent her so i don't know but it was i'm sure stephanie just used the the senior staff list or the staff meeting list or some list so you don't have a recollection of either discussing with stephanie benton who should get it or looking at it i never told her who's on the list who's not on the list did you ever see it i don't think i ever saw the list okay um she says on page top of the next page she kept her old agency office and remained on a separate floor that was correct right that was true yes that's true um then says the governor made unflattering comments about the weight of female colleagues yeah i do not do that have you made comments unflattering or not about people's weight no i don't make weight i don't make comments about people how about being skinny or fat no i don't make comments about uh weight period never dealt with some people who had weight issues in life i make no i'm very sensitive about weight comas have you ever said uh that's too skinny i don't even i don't even think i said that look how skinny she is nothing like that even as a joke governor is it possible that you would notice if you thought someone lost weight or were worried or something along those lines but it would be as a positive way or uh you know if there's some if there's an issue with the person but it's normally an issue a topic i stay away from okay so you don't remember saying i was commenting on how skinny she is i may have because she tends to think she's heavy i don't know but uh so i may have been like trying to counteract that but as a general topic i don't get into it did you ever speak to about his weight no they did tease about it though quite often you say they who's they uh there was actually a christmas party that the troopers did a spoof video and in this spoof video uh i think there were comments about his weight which troopers did the spoof video it was the overall there's a christmas party for the troopers and the troopers do a uh spoof video do you call any of the troopers who are involved with that yeah well we let them know i didn't handle it directly but we let them know that was over the top wasn't actually his weight they had because his name is so they had him depicted in this stupid cartoon as a and he who was told that that went over the top the uh this goes back years but it was whoever was in charge of the detail at that time anyone other than the troopers ever make any comments about weight i don't know i don't know but you never did no not that i recall so if you go to the next part of that the medium piece it says he ridiculed them about their romantic relationships and significant others how about that allegation i don't know what that means i can make jokes sometimes about marriage what kind of jokes have you made about marriage uh just about the basic advisability of the institution have you said what no have you said uh to anyone who's about to get married why are you getting married always ends in divorce no i did say publicly i passed gay marriage now but don't ask me to pass gay divorce or something like that but no i'll tease a little bit about marriage divorce have you said to anyone um that marriage just ends up in losing money no i don't think so have you said to anyone that uh marriage uh results in a decline in your sex drive no i don't think they said that yeah so what kind of joke i don't think that was a i don't think that was a necessarily funny or true just you know so what kind of jokes have you i don't even remember what kind of jokes just uh i don't remember what marriage jokes had made but but you think you probably had humor about marriage yes yeah so and you've have you talked to staffers about their personal lives and their romantic lives i'll talk to people you know getting married i've married staff members staff members have mentioned they are getting married they are getting divorced they're having a baby you've asked people about whether or not they have a boyfriend or girlfriend yeah i'll ask in sort of if i have that kind of relationship with them you're still with your girlfriend you stay with your boyfriend do you ever suggest um staff members date each other not uh no that's more of a senator schumer boasts he's had 22 marriages among his staff but i've never suggested a particular coupling so the next line here it says he said the reasons that men get women were money and power is that something you've said no you've never said uh men get women through money and power no sounds like a line in a movie but it's not mine you've never said it no and then she says uh she has the part in here about being in your office and uh as she got up to leave uh that you stepped in front of her and kissed her on the lips yeah that did not happen okay nothing like factual matter did not happen no okay have you kissed any staff member on the lips i kiss on the cheek there may be an occasion where a staff member kissed me on the lips but i kiss on the cheek as a rule okay so what who which staff member has kissed you on the lips i don't recall anyone specifically but it could happen that somebody kicks kisses on the lips you know some people peck on the lips never a romantic kiss but some people peck on the lips even at public events by the way people i don't know uh but as a general rule i kiss on the cheek so but you don't you think a staff member may have kissed you on the lip but you don't remember who yeah i wouldn't say to you no one has ever kissed me on the lips on the staff you know but uh i don't kiss people on the lips as a rule so you can't say no staff member has kissed you on the lips but you can't say who may have kissed you on the lips right okay does it happen often no how many times do you think it's happened in the last 10 years not many but that's what some people do and in life and never a romantic kiss right we're just talking about a peck on the lips okay so but you don't remember who among your staff had done that has done that and that's when you say they you never kiss anyone lips but they kiss you obviously you both have you both you mean both your lips touched right my intent is to kiss you on the cheek uh it then becomes you know sometimes maybe it's accidental or maybe sometimes people just want to do it back on the lips okay but you don't know who okay how about um that ever happened uh it may have i don't recall doing it having a kiss on the lips with her you don't remember no but it may have happened yeah okay but that would have been because also the different events you know i was at her wedding uh so sometimes at different social functions but i don't remember that no but it may have happened may have happened how about i don't remember but i'm not going to rule out that i've ever kissed someone a peck on the lips how about half a peck on the lips you know okay pex like peck you mean lips touching right yeah annabelle walsh have you ever kissed annabelle walsh in the lips not that i recall but i may have not that i recall but i may have you know these people this is like 10 years with people social events weddings parties deaths wakes uh brittany commission bernie commissioner never that you're sure never yeah why are you so sure about that well i had very limited interaction with her okay but so you it's got to be someone you have a lot of interaction with you don't you don't remember for sure you may have but definitely not brittany commissioner well as a the other people long period of time and a much closer relationship brittany commisso only started working with me really during covid so it's a relatively short period of time uh and i didn't know that well and have that many dealings with her and but uh lindsey boyland no never that that could not have happened no okay why is that i it's i didn't have that kind first of all i don't do it in general there may be exceptions and uh i didn't have a close that kind of close relationship with lindsay uh i may have given her a kiss on the cheek once in a while but no and not in the office like that the way she claims on the way out of the office in front of stephanie benton now some of the people you're close to who you may have had kisses on the lip that could have been some of those could have been in the office i it could have you know you're asking me to speculate could have could have been at a wedding could have been at a birthday party so who are there who are the staffers with whom you have a close enough relationship such that you think you may have kissed on the lips no i don't think i have kissed anybody on the lips i just don't want to sit here and say to you i have never kissed anyone on the lips absolutely no period well i thought with respect to some you said it's possible and then with respect to britney commissioner you said not possible because she's not someone i'm close to i'm trying to understand who are the people i'm looking possible tenure people who i've if i've known i've worked with four years i don't even remember all the situations that i've been in with her the weddings the deaths funerals uh over 10 years could i have kissed her on the lips am i absolutely sure i never kissed her on the lips no i'm not absolutely sure i never kissed her on the lips uh brittany commisso is the past year always in one type of environment uh yeah i feel confident saying i've never kissed her on the lips okay so who else is in that category of the long-term employee who i've been in a variety of situations with where i would be uncomfortable to say i never kissed them on the lips so in that category it would be in that category annabelle walsh she would be in that category uh it would be in that category be in that category be in that category have you kissed any men on the lips not purposefully i kissed them on the cheek often okay but not not on the lips other than accidentally i may have kissed a man on the lips who i don't know but not none that you remember no but same answer i'm not going to say i never kissed a man on the lips have you um have you ever lie down uh on a couch with your head on the lap of a staffer i have i laid down on the couch often because i have a bad back so i will often lay down on the couch uh with staff in the room and when we're going over documents or something else i normally i'll put my hand behind my head to sort of prop it up and look at the documents there have been times when people are sitting on the couch and i'll lay down on the couch sometimes they move sometimes they stay there i don't remember a time when i had my head on their lap but i'll lay on the couch and there'll be a person who there's been times when the person sat on the couch okay so you lay down your couch sometimes people sit on the couch but you don't remember ever lying down with your head on their lap you don't remember that ever no you ever do that could be proximate you know put my hand behind have my hand on my uh my head on my arm uh arm perhaps leaning against propped up but i don't remember having my head on their lap how about no same same same you don't have a recollection putting your head on her lap and lying on the couch i don't have a recollection i have a recollection of laying on the couch quite often with people sitting next to me quite often i don't have a regulation of my head on their lap but when you say that your arm could be in the back of your head could that be leaning against the side of their leg yes is that you do you remember that or is it yes that's what i was saying to you and have my arm behind my head okay have you ever lie down with your head on lap without your arm there but just i may have you may have but you don't remember right um have you ever touched any staff or on the butt they're behind if anything a man not a woman okay which man did you generally i don't know i don't remember any man but if it ever happened it might have been with a man now i don't remember any particular band but i just want to say as a blanket never happened and if it happened it might have happened with a man how about no no i don't have any recollection of ev ever touching a woman on her butt you don't remember ever touching any woman on the butt well let's qualify this okay he has he can answer this question i understand he's fully capable i understand no recollection of touching a woman on her butt may it have happened accidentally incidentally [Music] yes but i don't have any recollection of purposefully touching a woman on the butt may have have given a man a pat on the butt i don't remember that either but that may have happened presumably touching women on the butt there are people you were in relationships with at the time that you may have you don't want to exclude that as a possibility say that again please people you're dating seeing if i'm dating a woman yes then i may have touched her but other than that i don't remember ever intentionally touching any woman in the butt right does that include any area uh near the near the butt could you define near the butt do you understand where a human's butt is and anywhere near there well near the butt now becomes an uh expansive area but yeah i mean you can explain i explain you may hold people in pictures near the lower back that's what i'm trying to explore what you do remember in the picture uh might i have my hand you know you you have a number of people you're taking a picture you're taking a group shot do you have your hand on the lower back do you have your hand on a hip depending on the configuration that might happen but you have no recollection of intentionally putting your hand on anyone's butt oh right other than people with whom you have an intimate relationship at the time do you remember a regional economic development council award event where maria bartoromo served as the emcee yes did she do that more than once or i think she's done it a couple of times and do you remember any such event when lindsay boylan was also in attendance she would have been in attendance at those events while she was here because those were a main economic development event and are those award events are they in albany or in new york city albany and do you remember any such events where you traveled there or back with maria bararomo i don't but on the state helicopter a it is for the transport of authorized personnel only who are state employees so if maria bought aroma went up or down i would have probably been on the helicopter with her or another state employee probably would have been with her but you don't have a recollection of taking the helicopter with her not specifically do you have a general recollection of being on the heli on a helicopter with mario barama i do not do you have any recollection of after one of those events there being a discussion about whether lindsey boylan should come back with you and maria bartoromo on the helicopter i don't remember any conversation do you remember ever saying that she should come back with you and her not coming back with you on that helicopter no i don't remember that i wouldn't have that conversation about directly normally anyway what do you mean by that i wouldn't normally say to someone i want you to come on the helicopter you know the staff determines who travels where did you talk to any staff about having uh lindsey boylan come back with you on the helicopter with maria bartoramo no i don't have any recollection of that do you remember ever being on an airplane or helicopter with maria bartoromo and lindsey boyle i don't remember that um have you commented on maria bararomo's appearance to anyone physical appearance not that i recall except to quote my father who said she had a face like sophia loren so you quoted your father saying that she has a face like does it feel all right who did you make that i may have said that i may have said that a couple of times to who uh i didn't say it to maria bought a roma just in passing i don't remember who have you ever made any comments to people about breasts no um have you ever been with lindsay boylan at the mansion where your dog was there my dog is always at the mansion uh she has been at the mansion at events and have you ever been there uh where your dog was scratching or jumping onto or around lindsey boylan i don't remember my dog jumping near lindsay boyle he normally doesn't they don't come into events but if whether it's at an event or not you don't remember any interactions with with lindsey boyland involving your dog no he's not the most socially friendly dog so we tend not to expose him to a lot of people has he bitten people no but he's he's big and he bumps and he jumps and has he bitten any troopers he as a general doesn't like troopers i don't think he's bitten any troopers but he uh he's not fond of some of them some of them he loves some of them he doesn't love any time when um the dog was either jumping around or on lindsay borland where you said towards the effect of if i you know if i was a dog i would mountain you too that is a gross and vulgar statement and i wouldn't say that to anyone under any circumstance because you've never said that that's a gross and vulgar statement no now after the medium article do you remember discussions with your staff about how to prepare and respond to some of the more specific allegations in the media article i remember the discussion just as a whole continuum that we were talking about earlier although there is some time difference so the tweet comes out in early december and the medium piece comes out in february so it's not there is some i don't remember any differentiation okay if you look at tab 59 it's in front of you see this is a list of questions that melissa derose sent to stephanie benton yep um do you remember um so we're going through a list of questions like i don't no i don't say you don't no um can you stay on that tab i just wanted to go through some of these questions so i think uh in our testimony today we've probably covered most of all these questions but did you forcibly kiss ms boyle and as soon as no from your prior answer right uh did you touch her in the legs and arms of course we've covered that mr poker we've covered uh did did you ever call lindsay boyle and lisa no i don't remember that okay could you by mistake or you don't you don't remember i don't remember ever calling on lisa okay um there's a question here of have you ever had an inappropriate relationships with women on your staff what's the answer to that question uh inappropriate i assume means a sexual relationship with women on my staff the answer is no have you had any uh romantic uh relationship with any member of staff never never never um the question and you don't remember going through and preparing questions like this what's the what's your understanding of why melissa derosa might send an email like this to stephanie benton would it be these are the questions that i you know they will offer say before i go out to a press conference she's saying these are questions that he's going to get asked do you know of liz smith never prepared a list of questions to prepare you for a press conference she wouldn't send them to me she liz smith may have been working with melissa and that group but not with me to me directly what's your understanding of liz smith's role in advising you or the executive chamber during this time relating to sexual harassment she's a she's a political advisor press adviser a friend of melissa's melissa uh trust her judgment she's very smart so melissa will talk to her as a press advisor do you talk to her she worked for me in a campaign i think my last campaign she was a paid advisor have you had discussions with her directly on issues relating to the sexual harassment allegations she was i think she was in attendance at a meeting that we had or on a phone where they were all given their two cents on how it should be handled and what was her view on how things should be i don't remember so if you go down here um there's a question do you have regrets about the language you have used toward women in the workplace do you remember uh being asked that question in preparation for any of your public appearances or ever no ever i don't think the press have ever asked me that do you do you have any regrets about the language you've used towards women in the workplace i don't have regrets look if if you could always state everything over i'm sure i would state things if i could restate everything i've ever said to a woman or a man i'd say it differently but generally no you have no general regret you have no regrets generally or specifically about language views with women in the workplace no the next question starts you have a long history of saying inappropriate things to women is that something that someone suggested you have done no oh eat the whole sausage i did say that that was taken totally out of context there is a tradition at the new york state fair in syracuse that every elected official goes to uh a uh out store that vendor that sells sausage and the political tradition is you order a sausage in a bun with peppers and i was with my daughters and the political tradition is you have to eat the whole sausage you can't just take a bite and then put it aside and the press is all around so that's what i was talking about was at a sausage event i had a sausage shop but uh some press quipped that it had some other connotation sausage have you ever referred to any women in your staff as honey i may have sweetheart well on the staff i frankly can be a little old-fashioned this way and i'm conscious of it and i have three daughters who keep me conscious of it not to say sweetheart darling honey hon and i am conscious of it have i slipped on occasion yes okay and who are some of the people you may have called honey i don't know darling i don't know but it could have happened could have happened but you don't think recently i don't think anywhere near the frequency uh you know one time in my life honey was a fine thing to say darling was a fine thing to say uh it's it's not anymore so i'm very aware of it but there are times that i slept but that's not an example of regrets about language you've used toward women in the workplace you don't have regrets i didn't think of it in terms of that i thought it was more asking about specific things that i may have said to a woman um i'm going to move off of lindsey boyland but before i do i don't know if any of my colleagues have any questions and also uh if they don't uh is there anything about you know your interactions with lindsey boyland or her allegations that we haven't covered based on my questions that you can think of that you wanna no i think he has what yeah why don't we do this when we have a break if there's anything he can confer with us something at the end and at the end we can you can also give a sworn statement on the record of you know whatever topic you want so there'll be an opportunity everything's sworn everything's sworn a statement not tied to any particular question yeah i mean if there's anything that we want to clean up on the end i may ask him some questions yeah at the end we should obviously take a break and then before we close right record okay okay new topic new topic so we're making progress um when did you first meet charlotte bennett a couple of years ago and how did you how do you remember meeting her first the most salient recollection i have of meeting her was i was working the mansion she brought over a powerpoint she dropped it off and we had a conversation and when she came and dropped it off what do you remember her role or position being she was a junior assistant slash briefer sort of a starting position people do briefings for the next day general office work so there there are people uh who go by the function or title of briefers briefer and briefer and do they put together books for you put together a briefing book we'll do administrative work and how many briefers are there at any given time three or four and so are they different than your executive assistants yes uh but do they sometimes do some of them yes play the role of helping yes and the executive assistants what are their general phones dictation typing okay and briefers are putting the binder together and dropping it off with you but sometimes there are briefers who would help out on the phone dictation typing yes sir is that does that uh generally fit the description of charlotte bennett's role over time yes she start out as a brief friend and started helping out no the briefers help out on the administrative functions also okay um do you remember um at what point in time uh charlotte bennett started helping out more on the executive assistant type functioning no i don't think you really transition from briefer to helping out on administrative things briefers do help out on administrative things did charlotte bennett sometimes travel with you yeah and not do all the briefers travel with you briefers who are also doing administrative duties too and who are some of those people who are some of the briefers who have had those administrative duties uh i forget i don't remember their names there are people who will come down basically to this city when i'm in albany stephanie's busy stays in albany they come down to answer the phones um or they staff the phone here if they're in new york city did you play any role in deciding to have charlotte bennett help out on the administrative side no i didn't hire charlotte bennett i don't get involved really in stephanie's decision of who works where if a person doesn't do their job or it doesn't work i'll tell stephanie but if it's working then it's fine that's right so once they've started to help and things are not working out you might tell steph yeah so-and-so is not that good yeah how about in deciding who's gonna someone who hasn't been doing that to start are there discussions between you and ms benton about you know so-and-so should play that role or not you know it's more a person doesn't work and then we go to the next person that person doesn't work we go to experts so with charlotte bennett you don't remember having a discussion or being a part of the decision to have her start playing that role no but she she seemed competent and capable and eager so you know i think she she would have and in her performance she was competent and good um and so it sounds like and did you find her to be competent and good yes okay uh were your interactions with charlotte bennett generally positive they were generally positive but uh different and what do you mean by that different different she had a particular background and a particular mindset uh and was at a particular place in her life that she was working through which is different than other employees okay so tell us about the particular mindset the particular place in her life and what she was working through which you said is different from other employees when i the most memorable i don't know when i actually first met her but uh the most memorable interaction i had she brought something over to the uh mansion memo or drift powerpoint or whatever it was and uh it was like a saturday or something and i was just going through all this paperwork and i said to her so basically what brought you here and meaning to the administration and she started to say she came because of what the administration had done on sexual assault and the laws that we had passed on sexual assault which were national groundbreaking laws and she was so excited about that work that she wanted to come be part of the administration and volunteered in a very forthright way she had been a victim of sexual assault uh and i'm going to tell you this but obviously leave it to your discretion as to the use of the information to respect your privacy and the college was unfair and biased and she had a fight with the college and she got through it anyway and then started a an act an organization on campus i believe to organize students and has and wanted to be a a woman's advocate for justice and was attracted to the administration because of all of the good things it did and she wanted to learn the skills necessary to pursue that and she said these things to you uh when you spoke to her in january at the at the pool house i was gonna say i don't think he gave it time for him so do you remember when it was it was when she came to drop something over the pool house i don't have a date but that's forthcoming with that detail uh in sometimes a clinical way and then sometimes a very emotional way and i was just stunned by what she said and touched by what she said and disturbed by what she said did you say anything in response i said to her i was going through a situation in my own personal family that was eerily identical to the situation she was talking about so eerily identical that i had first thought to myself is there a way that she actually knows this it was that close to what i was going through so i said to her look i understand a little bit because i have someone in my family who had the same basic type of experience i said to her i'm telling you this in confidence that i want you to share it because people don't know and i don't want people to know more importantly the victim doesn't want people to know but i understand what you're dealing with and it takes tremendous courage and i'm sorry for what you've gone through and i respect you taking that energy and putting in a positive place and the trick is to take the pain and turn it positive there will be pain in life but how do you take that pain and bring it to a positive place and that's what you're doing and that's a good thing and any way i can help you do that i will and in telling him about your in your family's experience did you say did you use the words cone of silence did you tell her in a cone of silence yeah cone of silence and confidentiality because it was about my family member it was not public i wanted her to know that i had a situation that i could relate to her and this wasn't bizarre and i wasn't being judgmental i i got it because of this but cone of silence please don't share it because of the privacy of my family member and when she had told you about the work that the administration had done did she specifically mention enough is enough in 2015 i don't know what legislation she mentioned we had done a number of bills i think she was talking about mostly our work vis-a-vis universities okay and did you tell her do you remember telling her in words or substance that uh she shouldn't let that experience define her uh because and because people in power never give up power you remember saying words to that effect no she would often juxtapose concepts on the advocacy she wanted to be a female advocate and change uh the way institutions treat women and especially how in universities deal with sexual assault and we had done a tremendous amount on that i was saying that is a long battle you have to chip away at it don't you don't think you become an advocate and in one fell swoop you're gonna change the world uh it's a process it's a journey it's a destination uh and it's hard she was she i think she said something like well why don't you make the universities do this and i was saying we did everything we could but these are calcified institutions and you don't just change everything overnight and you said that she would often juxtapose subjects what do you mean by that she could hear things through a filter is the best way i could say it she processed what she heard through her own filter uh it was often not what was said and not what was meant how did you know how she processed because you would repeat it and it was different than what i had just said okay so she you would say something she would repeat it and it wouldn't be what i said right okay what what examples just in general just any examples no but sometimes you put two concepts together like uh institutions are powerful people it wasn't people it was powerful institutions but there was a disconnect sometimes um so it sounds like this was a conversation that how long did that conversation last that was a long conversation he told that whole story like without break so how long half an hour anything else you remember about that conversation it was very tough for me because it brought back didn't burn back because it wasn't over it it was her in pain and trauma and working through the trauma and trying to find out figure out what to do with it and angry at parts but then a little light at parts and crying at parts and uh i was in the midst of dealing with a family member on the same thing and having the same same discussion and the same issues and it was just a repeat for me so and it was sad sad sad said you said earlier that it sounded so similar to something you were going through you you thought for a second did she look it up and say what was that about did you think she was that's my paranoid been in public service too long been under the microscope too long it was so similar that i said is there any way she knows about this other situation with my family member it was that similar but i quickly dismissed that that's something you were thinking at the time yeah it was that similar it was like incredible anything else you remember about that conversation no okay i was just wiped out afterwards so that sounds like a obviously a very serious conversation and that happened in albany at the pool house prior to that were your your interactions primarily with her in new york city i don't even remember i don't remember i don't remember her before that in new york you don't remember meeting her before that i i don't remember any incident with her or any discussion with her before that um you remember seeing her i had to see her before it was not the first time i saw her but i don't remember any dealings with her you don't remember any conversations with her no you don't remember coming in to provide dictation or before that yeah no i don't how about just banter any friendly discussions with her no remember talking to her about her family in that conversation if no in that conversation okay other than conversations on that day about the family any discussions with her about her father howie only about this that was the main point okay how about not about that event but her father for example liking motorcycles and having discussions with you i don't remember anything nope no discussions about the phone there's like you know 10 people in that category will come in and out and all day and i try to you know i talk to them but i didn't remember it yeah i'm trying to just gather what you do remember yeah i don't know yeah and you said you didn't recall when the conversation happened where you talked about her history of being a sexual assault victim was it before or after the pandemic started can that help you place it it was must have been before thanks okay so and any so you don't remember any real interactions with her before that not remember uh talking to her about her boyfriends no okay she then talked about her boyfriends after this later yeah so like including a that's all that's after yeah okay how about just joking with her uh you talking to her for example about singing a song remember telling her to sing danny boy i think that would have been after that would have been after too so before that um very you don't have a lot of interactions okay so what's the next time next thing you remember um happening with or your what's the next interaction you remember with charlotte bennett after that meeting then just a series of for me that was a moment of new awareness and then when i would deal with her this was always the backdrop of our discussions okay so then what kind of discussions do you end up do you have with her after that she [Music] it was before the pandemic because then she comes up to albany at one point to help on the pandemic and everything was basically closed down she had been at westchester before where she lived she came to albany to help she was staying in a hotel she there were only a few people working she i said how are you doing how are you feeling how's everything going she had like a regimen she was exercising everything that's great she was doing a lot of analytical work and she said uh she had no uh all she did was work and go back to the hotel and there was no real uh she hadn't made any friends on the floor that there was a group of young people who did work on the floor that would go out but she wasn't part of them and i said to her well you should get to be part of them they're a nice group they're easy group just me talk to one of them and say you know what are you doing when are you going out can i go along with you guys we talked about that at one time remember asking her who are you hanging out with well that might have been part of this conversation uh hanging out yeah she was hanging out with nobody did you suggest to her did you ask her about if she had any interest no when she was saying i can't she wasn't part of that clique she didn't call it a click but this group of young people who were going out uh so that there was some social activity i said there are some people on there they're just very nice easy people it's not like you have to it's hard to break into is was one of those people she said was in that group i said he's sweetest pine just a sweet nice guy just say to him you know when you guys go out i'd like to go out with you it's very easy uh they weren't difficult uh kids you know so i made that point to her how about what did you ever suggest same thing because another nice sweet and i was sure that if she said i'm up here i'm alone invite me when you guys go to dinner that they would say yes did you um uh with your staff sort of informally talk or gossip about who's seeing who and who's hanging out with who is that the type of conversation you have had with people no i've learned subsequently when i said hanging out i talked about the i just meant hanging out as friends charlotte was the she told the number of people about her experience so people were aware of it i assume she's told a number of people because the a number of people were aware of it so i think there was there was more in her experience what are you talking about that she was a victim okay but sometimes she would she'd be very forthright about it so there was some people who were aware of that how are you aware of that that she had told other people because other people knew who just people on the floor would would shatter like who like junior staff people more the people that she would uh hang out with a younger group and who are some of those people they're like press people they're like intern level lower level you know 25 year old starter any names i don't really know many of them uh but there's a significant number of young people who are just sort of coming up for a first experience so my question was a little bit separate from charlotte ben this this question which was more do you have you had conversations with staffers that sort of just informally asked them who's hanging out with who who's dating who what's going on type of gossipy type conversations have you had those types of conversations with staffers first hanging out to me maybe this is generational hanging out to me is just hanging out as friends right dating is different than hanging out so i was trying to get up with no i'm not trying to suggest hanging out or anything more okay hanging out no i mean look is there gossip you know it's albany it's a small town it's a state capital it's one office uh everybody goes out to the same restaurant the same bars is there gossip chatter like there is in any organization yes probably a little bit more because it's albany uh but i mean in a nice way because it's a capital town so the people you work with go to the same uh restaurants like da's office and ferlini's you know but uh no more than usual do you sometimes say the staffers tell me what's going on i don't ask but everybody loves to tell the governor something but you never ask not really but people like to tell the governor something so do you know i like to tell the u.s attorney something right do you sometimes say tell me something new what's going on you never ask these i'll ask what's going on but not meaning like that what do you mean by like that well what's going on not about who's dating who you never inquire about what's going on like in the world what happened with biden today what's happening in the senate are we getting transportation money like that's what i'm interested in not trying to ask a trick or loaded question you're trying to ask do you have conversations with people like what's going on not what's going on with biden but what's going on with people's staff i don't solicit you don't solicit any of that no do people pass on gossip from time to time yes but they pass on gossip but you never solicit it never solicit i never say never about anything might i ask a follow-up question or have a specific yeah but as a general rule do i ask no as a general rule you don't ask people what's going on how are people doing how it's who's hanging out with who hanging out meaning just hanging out how are people doing yes you're doing covet there's it's isolated you're working 24 hours a day you're scared to death how are people doing yeah not who's sleeping with who okay again didn't suggest didn't have that in my question not talking about covet times generally you as a general rule you don't solicit sort of questions about people who's friendly with who who's hanging out with who but they like to tell you things right because you're the governor but i think that's the general they just come in you don't really ask them yes so um is that the type of conversation you have had with have you had any conversations like that with charlotte bennett where you ask sort of questions about other than what you've said which it sounds like the way you've described it is she said she's lonely you said why don't you try to hang out with these young folks they seem nice they seem nice other than that any conversations with her about informally about us office gossip type no things with charlotte i tread very lightly because with a victim of sexual assault and she was clearly fragile and in a delicate place i was very careful about those conversations always yeah and did you ever for example i lived this in my life i know this uh i know this and how delicate it is okay so have you ever uh asked her for example to memorize lyrics to a song i never asked her to memorize lyrics of the song you mentioned danny boy danny boy is a song that we would sing together as a group none of us could ever remember the words oh danny boy then everybody stops the so i might have asked her i've asked at times for people to google the words so we can read the words i may have said okay your job is to get the words for danny boy but something like that so that may have happened that may have happened you don't you don't remember it specifically how about bohemian rhapsody bohemian rhapsody yeah no um what is bohemian rhapsody it's a queen song which one you can't do it right now any discussions about that with her not that i remember okay have you ever sung uh parts of the song to her maybe danny boy okay how about do you love me by the contours no i'm the on a phone call no do you love me no you don't remember doing that no i don't even know that song you don't know that you don't know the do you like another verse it just says do you love me it's the contours could you give us a couple more lines no i can't no you don't you've never said that to her no do you have you sung a chorus of any song to her i think you just answered yeah no not that i remember on the phone when you're talking to her no while she's taking dictation no did you have you ever um talked to her about how many push-ups you can do yeah okay tell us about that she was exercising uh daily which was a positive thing in a constructive thing i thought and i wanted to encourage her on that so i said to her uh will a push-up competition i said how many push-ups can you do and she would give a number and i said oh that's nothing i said i'm gonna do your push-ups plus 20 when you get to a number that is respectable and then for like a couple of months you would come back and say okay i'm about up to 30. i said that's nothing 30 it's nothing it's a waste of my time and they should go back next month i'm up to 40. and i said that's nothing it's a waste of my time and we never actually had the push-up competition did she ever do push-ups in front of you uh there was one time where i said because she got up to like a very high number and i said well how do you do what are you you're doing the push-up wrong how do you do a push-up and i said you're doing a cheating push-up that's not a real push-up i think she said she could do like 40 push-ups or something so i said no i'm talking about a real push-up nose touches the floor and either i did a push-up nose touches the floor or she did a push-up to establish what was the proper form no she did the push-up and she did nose to the floor i remember that because i was a little intimidated and that that interaction where she did push-ups i was in albany no i think it was here okay so that was before the conversation you remember from the pool house unless we were down here i would come down here during covert too i see can you place that exchange relative to the conversation up at the pool house no it could have been before could have been after yeah you said when you saw her do it put proper push-up where she touched her nose to the floor you felt a little intimidated did you say anything along those lines to her no had you made any comments it was always this i'll do 20 more than you can but you have to get to a respectable number and whatever number she came back with i said it was not respectable but after she did the proper push-up you didn't say now i'm scared no i may have said okay we agree on form something like that do you remember have you made any comments about her appearance in what regard start with have you made comments about her hair not that i recall do you remember her she had her hair in a bun at one point no you remember calling her bun after that after she had her you don't remember that no do you remember uh she had her hair in the bun i called the button now how about uh do you remember her ever wearing jean shorts i remember her wearing jean shorts in albany yeah and then you remember telling her she looks like daisy duke yeah i remember wearing jean shorts uh which frankly i thought were a little uh inappropriate in the office and i said something like uh uh oh uh i said what are you wearing uh daisy do shorts today not that you would know who daisy duke was i think daisy duke must be like 110 now but uh just to register a little bit about the shorts because i thought they were a little inappropriate but i didn't really want to say anything uh directly so you do remember saying that what did the shorts look like they were jean cut off shorts how short were they they weren't short short but i never saw anybody wore jean shorts into the office before what day of the week was it i don't remember but it doesn't even matter i never saw on even on the weekend remember of casual dress but not jean shorts but i didn't want to say to her you know i was sensitive in what i was saying because of what she had told you about her experience yes and you were sensitive so you said it looks like daisy duke are you shorts yeah she wouldn't know what it meant but it was just i thought a subtle way to say those shorts were a little off so you said it specifically because she wouldn't know what it meant i didn't want to say to her i think you're dressed inappropriately do you remember commenting on her eye makeup i don't remember commenting on it but i do remember it was i thought it was a little different i don't know if i ever said anything do you remember calling her wings because the eye makeup goes up i may have said something like that remember sort of using wings as a nickname for her i don't remember that but i mean it's possible that if the day i said that i called the wings do you uh you generally give nicknames to people or use nicknames yes like what are some generally but what are some nicknames you've used for staffers uh beth they'll call bethesda robert who goes by bob and robert they will call bobert uh i call rita my new friend lovely rita meter maid i call sharon southside sharon she's from the south side of it's the bad side it's just a little levity that i try to inject sharon and rita didn't find it funny but did you have any nicknames for charlotte bennett i don't think so did you sometimes call a lot charlotte yeah lot maybe charlatay sure latte no unless you drink lattes did she drink lettuce i don't know okay what did you think of her work that she was that she did for you it was fine i mean she didn't she did phones and administrative work she seemed smart she seemed smart enough and fragile she was fragile always fragile always fragile even before she had that conversation with you always stretch what do you mean by fragile that i think she had gone through a very difficult situation and was still working it through and you observed that about her even before the conversation you had with her in the pool house it became clear to me after that pieces fell into place after that conversation before that she seemed fragile she seemed a little different what do you mean by that just to me there was something peculiar about part of a personality nice smart but something uh a little different i don't really remember her that well at all before but when i heard her story then i remember thinking now this makes sense okay so even but even before a story you thought she was fragile i didn't think that much frankly before the story but now you think she's fragile still to this day well i don't know you said she seemed fragile so i'm trying to figure out when you thought she was fragile i thought she was fragile all through the time i knew it okay and then to this day too i haven't seen her in a while have you seen the interview that she gave cbs no i didn't watch it why not i find the whole situation uh depressing frankly so you didn't see it or you read a transcript no i don't want to do you think she was a hard worker i think she was a competent worker i think her attendance was fine i didn't keep track of her that well but i have no reason to think now do you remember people talking about that she was work how hard she was working no you remember people talking about how for a while she is holding on to a couple of different roles including helping with the briefing book but also helping with administrative work no do you remember discussions about how she wouldn't be able to travel with you as much because she had a lot of other things going on that she needed to do no but i wouldn't know that i'm not asking whether i'm just asking whether you did no did you ever say anything to annabelle walsh about how hard miss bennett was working during covert at any point i may have i do that from time to time if i see one person you know sometimes they'll have because i work seven days a week so sometimes you know i'll see a lot of a person and then say uh why don't you switch off because i've seen this person for the past two weekends that happens from time to time i don't remember saying it about uh charlotte but i say it frequently did there come a time when you learned that charlotte bennett would stop working with you yes okay how did you learn that uh i forget who told me that she was changing positions i don't remember who told me was it jill the rosie i don't remember you don't remember do you remember about when no does june of last year sound about right june of last year is just a blur because it's like the covid year was doing the covet year yeah and you don't remember who i don't remember who i heard from first no what did you hear about why she would be no longer be working with you i don't i don't remember who [Music] i don't remember this discussion of why she was leaving or where she was going i don't think anybody talked to me about that so you just learned from someone you're not sure who that she would be moving she wouldn't be yeah it wasn't about the move there was there came a point in time and i don't remember when and with who exactly but i had a vague discussion that of her not being comfortable in the position and wanting to do something else i don't remember when that was or where that was did you learn that she was not comfortable in the position because of an interaction with you i later learned uh that it was the interactions with me not a specific one later by later what do you mean after how long after she stopped working with you i don't remember shortly or months i don't have no you know it was during covet it was relatively insignificant in the scope of things people came people left who was quarantined who was not there so i don't remember where so you were you just remember being told she's no longer going to be working with you you remember learning sometime after that it was because she was uncomfortable with an interaction with you generically yeah okay and then who if anyone did you have discussions with about that the first conversation i had really uh about that was with melissa de rosa who came out from a different angle who said why you basically i shouldn't have been having personal conversations with charlotte and that she was a trauma victim and i forget how melissa said it but that she was a little uh off in terms of personality and you know a victim of sexual assault is dealing with trauma and is susceptible to susceptible to different interpretations of things and just why were you talking to a victim of sexual assault who you knew was off so when was this conversation with melissa sometime last year okay so you have a general recollection of being told she's not working with you you also had a recollection that it you learned that it was because of an interaction with you and then a conversation with melissa derosa when was the conversation with melissa derosa relative to the learning that it was because of a conversation with you that she felt uncomfortable presumably afterwards yeah and where was that conversation with melissa drosso uh it was we were in a car i think in new york city okay and uh what did you say i got offended i said yes she's a victim of sexual assault but what does that mean she's a kid and [Music] that we should just give up on her she's irredeemable i said to melissa i said how about if i said that about your i'm going to make it up well they're a victim of sexual assault so they're a little off so they're damaged so uh we're not going to deal with them because you know you're a victim it's irredeemable you're scarred for life you're a damaged person and even though you're 25 years old that's it for you uh you're never going to figure it out you're never going to work it through i said i'm not doing that i'm not doing that i don't believe it and i'm not doing that so what is it that she was saying you had said that you shouldn't have she was saying you had no business talking to this girl you knew she was damaged you knew she was a victim of sexual assault and you shouldn't have put yourself in that position that's what motivates you yes and so i'm trying to understand what is it that you shouldn't have done talk to her at all engage in any conversations whatsoever whatsoever that's your understanding of what yes personal conversations any personal conversations what personal conversations did you understand she talked to me about her rape what personal conversations that she was okay what personal conversations did you believe charlotte bennett was saying you had with her that she was a victim of sexual assault that would seal governor was there a specific instance where you felt uh charlotte was uncomfortable with you that you recall yes okay do you want to talk about that no i just want to understand what melissa i think she was talking about well what melissa was talking about is why did i have a conversation with her about her sexual assault how did melissa derosa know about your conversation with her about sexual assault she had to get it in reconstruction she had to get it from june and jill okay judy judy mogul and jill sure so you understood that judy mogul and jill derozier had spoken to melissa derosa and reconstruction i now get it all yeah had they spoken to you i if they had spoken to me it wasn't in detail and i don't remember it but if they had said to me you had personal conversations with charlotte that she finds upsetting yeah i know the conversations that i had with her i'm very well aware of them and melissa's point was you shouldn't have had a conversation with her about rape okay putting aside the rape had uh melissa duros was she talking to you about some of the other personal conversations you had with her charlotte bennett no the only other conversation that i believed charlotte found problematic was she comes to me she says uh she's going to give a speech to her alma mater which was hamilton or hobart one of the two and she's very excited because she's going to be able to speak about the sexual assault experience would i help her on the speech i said yes i'll help you on the speech what do you want to say and she i said you have anything written i'll read it she said i don't have anything written i said what do you want to say and she went through basically what she wanted to say and i found it hard to follow what she was saying she was going to say uh except her point was the university did the wrong thing by her she said what do you think i didn't want to say that speech doesn't work because as i said i wanted to always tread softly i said let me tell you my advice on a speech the rule of the three eyes speech is either about inspiration information for impact this is not about inspiration this is not about information it should be impacted so just make it impact i was raped at this school but then i was violated a second time by the school when they victimized me a second time by denying my victimization and i was raped and then victimized the second time by the school i said that impact the school the institution of the school victimizer she did not like that idea visibly she didn't like it and said basically that's not my voice that's not my voice that's not who i am i said okay okay that was just my idea whatever you want to do i'm sure it's going to be great but she was that was the one conversation where i would have said she was disturbed by something okay and so is your understanding it was that conversation that led her to say uh she was uncomfortable and didn't want to work with you anymore what i have been told again in reconstruction was that she said to june to judy and jill that i didn't sexually harass her didn't make any advances she had a number of conversations with me about her rape which she wished in retrospect that she didn't have she considered me paternalistic and a friend but she was uncomfortable because of the conversations that she had was the thrust of what uh i had heard from judy and joe how about your uh saying that uh you would be comfortable uh dating or seeing someone as young as 22. i never said that you never said anything like that no she said to me okay let me let me pause putting aside whether you ever said that is that something you were told by judy and jill or melissa in that conversation as having been said i don't think they're related it's one of the stories that i heard at the time they didn't tell you that not that i remember but it's one of the stories i've been told the this is darren covert she comes in and she says i've been looking at your social media all sorts of women want to date you which is a running joke right all through this there's a group called homosexuals women are sending me these videos i want to date you chelsea handler's running around on uh twitter saying here's a video i want to date you i'm doing interviews they're saying you're the most eligible bachelor she comes and says i'm looking at social media all these people want to date you so yeah that's great that's great let's just chit chat while we're doing whatever we're doing uh i said well go back and find me a good candidate whatever that means uh and she says i said she said what qualifications and i said uh anyone over 22 which i not only have no memory saying it doesn't even make sense to me it's not even funny what does that mean anyone over 22 my daughters are over 22 years old it just doesn't make any sense so i don't remember saying it and it doesn't make any sense okay just i'll ask you about what you remember saying you're not saying so you don't remember ever saying 22. okay let's let's let's take these um conversations one by one because there's a number uh that have come up so first in may of last year and i get you don't remember the specific dates or times but during covet you mentioned that she talked to you about giving a speech in hamilton college right and you you were giving advice on the speech it sounds like you thought she didn't agree with some of your advice in the context of that did you say to her you were raped in the speech no to her as something to say you were raped no that was part of the speech did you say it to her yeah i said the speech is i said here's my idea of impact for the speech i was raped at this school right because the first rule for assault victim overcome assault is to acknowledge the issue which she was very clinical about acknowledging i was raped in this school but i was violated a second time by the school that was the impact that i was and in the context of delivering that message did you say in effect you were raped and repeat that phrase you were raped because i said it you were raped i never you were raped i never did you never did that no you know you never did that yeah it's what she heard i believe or what she thinks she heard it's not what i said because the emphasis was the school the first point is in this proposed speech i was raped at this school that grips people and you admit it and you acknowledge it i was raped by this school at this school at this school but i was but i was violated by this school a second time that was the point of my idea and when you said i believe that's what she thinks she heard you think she heard something else and then thinks in her head that you repeated you were raped three times you think that's a figment of her imagination she's delusional i'm actually going to object to that form you can object i think look you're going to have your own recognition your your own uh yeah so sorry let me memory of what i said point because i was trying to repeat what you or give this sense because you said i think that's what she heard yeah i'm trying to understand because normally okay people can hear the words and remember them yeah i think you don't understand that you can leave here and have a different interpretation and say i think he said this doesn't mean you're damaged certain statements resonate with people i think the i was raped not you were raped i never said you were raped i was raped she says i said that three times i didn't say it three times and you're sure of that i'm virtually positive because it makes no sense in the in the idea of the speech that i was relying on bring aside whether it makes sense or not you don't remember the date of this conversation you barely remember interactions with charlotte bennett she's one of many assistants you've interacted with over the years but and and you know you were helping her with this speech that included a reference to her being raped but you're also testifying you're certain you never repeated the phrase i was raped three times mystic testimony i'm just trying to understand my testimony you would remember how you talked to a rape victim about rape that's my testimony okay do you remember uh around when this was this conversation no no okay so you definitely remember that you did not repeat no i'm going to take a break okay thank you times 2 19 pm this concludes media 3 off the record time now is 2 33 p.m vegas media 4 on the record governor during this uh conversation with charlotte bennett and she was talking about a speech at hamilton college um did you say to her at any point that you were lonely the pandemic we had a separate conversation i don't know if it was at the same time or a different time about the covid i was doing the covert briefings every day and i started to talk about the isolation of covet covid had another consequence that was not a medical consequence it was isolation of human beings you can't touch anyone you don't see anyone you don't see your family you're stuck in your apartment you're all alone that concept of loneliness in covert is something i was talking to people about because i wanted to articulate it in my briefings and i was so i would talk about that the loneliness of covet not my loneliness i wasn't frank i had all my kids i wasn't that lonely but the loneliness of covert the isolation of covid and i talked to a lot of people about that did you talk did you tell charlotte bennett in any conversation that you were lonely no i talked about the loneliness of covid i was not particularly lonely you never said that to charlotte bennett not that i recall okay how about that you wanted to be touched no not that i wanted to be touched i was talking about the concept of touch during coving you can't touch another person you're afraid to touch another human being what does that do to you but it's a concept of it not me you never said to charlotte bennett that you wanted to be touched no did you ever say to her that you wanted to get on a motorcycle and ride to the mountains with a woman no not without the woman i may have said and i've said on occasion to my staff uh i'm going to leave you all here i'm going to get on my motorcycle and driving to the adirondacks which by the way i do uh like i'm just going to get away from it all and leave you while you figure it out and i would say to that to them during covid uh once in a while i'd say i'm going to get on my motorcycle i'm going to the adirondacks i'm going to leave you alone you south covic did you ever say to charlotte bennett that you wanted to ride get on your motorcycle and ride to the mountains to leave out for the moment i may have said that you may have said that part yeah may have said that rhetorically this is terrible it's every day it's not getting better i'd love to get on my motorcycle and drive through the adirondacks let somebody else figure this out how about ride uh get on your motorcycle ride to the mountains with a woman i do not remember saying that and i've driven to the adirondacks many times never with a woman and if i take my motorcycle to the adirondacks it's to be alone so i wouldn't want to bring a woman do you remember a subsequent uh interaction with charlotte bennett where she and came into your office to take dictation from you no but that would happen often do you remember in a time during covet when both she and wearing masks and you had commented on the breathing in and out of the mask no you remember ever commenting saying you look like the alien predator no no you you've seen it i don't remember it but it sounds funny i could see that okay but you're aware of the movie predator and aliens yeah okay do you remember saying ever saying something to the effect of and if there was ever a sexual harassment investigation they would say i said you look like the alien and predator no i don't remember that either do you remember then subsequent to that initial conversation where you spoke about her speech upcoming speech at hamilton where she told you again that she's going to be giving that speech a second discussion about the speech yeah she then it was coming like close and i remember said she was going to do it i didn't go near the conversation about the speech again okay why not but just because i had the conversation and uh it didn't work i remember her saying she gave the speech and it went very well and she was happy and they celebrated or something like that with champagne i don't remember that part but that she gave the speech and she was happy with it did she actually tell you she took your advice on some of the speech and incorporated it no not that i remember do you remember her telling you that her speech was going to be i don't remember that do you remember ever talking to her about monogamy no you've never had conversations with her about monogamy i don't remember talking to you about monogamy did you ever ask her if she was uh sleeping with other people who she was sleeping with no sleeping with no i would never ask her who you're sleeping with okay or hooking up with or would never say hooking up with i did ask her at one time it's a conversation she refers to uh did she i don't remember the exact words did she or does she have relationships with older men that conversation i had with her okay how did that conversation come about i had had a conversation with someone who relates second or third hand that charlotte was and again privacy discretion uh i did not want to ask her directly and again this is all when i said that the filter for me was all as a victim of sexual assault and somewhat aware of the possible consequences of a victim of sexual assault and how it plays out so i said to her something like do you have a or did you [Music] have a relationship with an older man i don't think she responded that was my way of saying if she wanted to talk about something that was going on here i wanted to give her the opportunity she didn't take it i didn't say anything else about it so you asked her if she had been with an older man either was she or i don't know the tense did she date older men was she dating older men something like that okay and why did you ask that question because if she was in if she wanted to talk about what i had heard which was i wanted to give her the opportunity to do it but i didn't want to say it directly so that's the way i posed the question okay and this was at a time this is after that initial conversation about her being a victim of sexual assault and in asking that question where you no longer worried about sort of steering clear of those subjects i think you testified earlier you decided to i thought this was my way of treading lightly given those facts and so you she did but she did not respond to your no okay and then did you ever ask her uh it sounds like you said you did have discussions about the people who are writing uh sort of love notes or admiration notes to you right you mentioned that earlier she raised that she said i've been reading your social media that a lot of women want to date you did you ever say to her can you find me help me find a girlfriend yes that's what i said to you before i said something to the effect of uh oh good see if you can go find me a good candidate you also mentioned earlier i believe that she mentioned jada pinkensmith and chelsea handler no i didn't say that no he didn't okay did she i don't remember her saying that i mentioned to you that chelsea handler had sent me uh videos or was tweeting me or whatever you remember discussing either chelsea handler or jada pinkett smith with um charlotte bennett i think i would have said uh i don't remember it i probably would have said chelsea handler is a little bit too wacky for me or something like that and jada pickett smith i don't know okay and in terms of criteria for your prospective girlfriends did you say anything to her about it no even as a joke so the someone in the 20s would be fine that's not something you said no and it's not a joke and it's not even funny do you remember her saying that that saying wouldn't it be difficult for you to date because it'll be hard for you to have privacy i don't remember her saying that do you remember saying anything to the effect of privacy would not be an issue for you i could have said that but i don't remember that whole i don't remember why she would have said that you can't date because you don't have privacy i don't remember that whole conversation do you remember uh saying that uh any girlfriend you would want a girlfriend in the albany area no you remember having any conversations with her about a tattoo yes what do you remember about that she said she was thinking of getting a tattoo and i think she showed me a picture of it or she described it and this again was just unsolicited i had i didn't say this to her but i had happened to have a conversation with about a rape victim getting a tattoo that's when i said this was all eerily similar for me and said to me a rape victim often feels indelibly marked post the victimization and a tattoo can be like a scarlet letter that they are marked and that stuck with me uh and there are three things that you can do when a person says they want to get a tattoo and i had asked this question previously for myself uh don't say no you can say wait and think about it you can say there is now a tattoo that is quote-unquote a semi-permanent tattoo with semi-permanent ink whatever that means or put the tattoo somewhere where somebody can't see it in case you wind up reconsidering i said to charlotte tattoo is a big decision you may want one now you may not want one later on in life i left out the first two options and said uh maybe at least you put it somewhere where it can't be seen i then said to her you know the state police have a rule that a tattoo cannot be visible outside of the uniform so think about it it's a big decision but if you decide to go ahead think about putting it somewhere where it won't be seen if you wind up regretting it later on did you uh specifically suggest a pot no just somewhere where it won't be seen did you talk to um charlotte bennett ever about her piercings not that i remember and i don't remember piercings do you remember her telling you how many piercings she has no you remember ever asking her whether she had any piercings other than in her ear no do you remember sort of after it doesn't sound like you remember a particular day days well correct that you saw it right you remember that after one of these conversations uh you saw her again the following day early morning on a weekend no but assume i did you remember a weekend day where she came in stephanie benton and melissa derosa were there but then they left and it was just the charlotte bennett no but i wouldn't necessarily know that anyway okay and you remember asking her to come in and help with your iphone apps an app on your iphone no but i could have is that something not an app on my iphone i don't have any apps on my iphone were you working on were you working on your book with your iphone yes what did you how did you use your iphone dictation i dictate it into the iphone and did you ever ask charlotte bennett to come and help you move something from your iphone that i could have done okay fair to say you're not great with the technology that is more than fair yeah and so on time on occasion she would come in and he would ask her to help you don't remember a particular morning um do you remember on that morning or on any other day saying uh words defective to have you found your girlfriend yet no and then uh that's what we had i'm just i'm sorry sir we had had a conversation where i said go out and i go look and find me a good candidate how many different times you think you've had the conversation about finding a good candidate for girlfriend i thought it was just once the one we've talked about earlier yes uh and then i think we you mentioned the daisy duke but do you remember that being some uh a weekend as you were leaving you saw her wearing jeans i don't remember when i don't you don't put this together in terms of how close in proximity time wise it was to these other conversations do you remember commenting to her that she seemed low energy the day before no and asking whether she was hungover no is that something uh that seems unusual or uncommon would you talk to staffers about you know did you go out were you hungover are you hungover if the drinking was interfering with their working yeah as a serious matter like that they're not performing their functions well because they're hungover yeah if they had a drinking issue that was affecting their work yes how about as a joke you seem low energy are you hungover not so much okay so any other interactions you remember now we've we've covered a few interactions and some of these questions have tried to place it on particular days but doesn't sound like in your mind you put them in clear days but any other interactions with charlotte bennett that you remember i just wanna have one moment governor with respect to your conversation with miss bennett about her speech and you were giving her how you would deliver the speech do you recall whether or not she used the words overpowering to you along those lines overpowering her yeah were those words words to the fact that when i gave my suggestion of the speech which i may have done in speech language you know in impact speeches or about your tone etc she said that's basically that's not my voice uh uh did you like physically almost move back in the chair that you're overpowering my voice or my idea was the general notion and i just i backed off and when you delivered the speech you know that you would give you know how was your voice how was your delivery of it if you recall or how would you have done it i would have speechified right it's impact it's an impact speech so it's all the way you say it and you deliver it and this is impactful i was raped when i was at this school and that's a powerful statement but then i was violated a second time by the school and i would have said it impassioned to her because that was the point of the speech i would have said it in my voice which is also true which is not her voice and uh she said basically i felt that's not my voice or your your overpowering my voice and she didn't like it how did you feel after that conversation i i was you know i was fine be careful how you say things they can be heard a different way and especially when you're talking about sexual matters that's why when you ask hook up have sex with i would never say anything like that uh and if if the person has a bad reaction back off yeah just back off and with respect to the conversation that you remember having with charlotte regarding whether or not she was dating or had a relationship with an older man were you concerned about charlotte well that was the point now she's a grown up that's your business there's no law etc uh how did she wind up in that situation i don't know did she feel exploited i don't know did she feel trapped i don't know uh was she acting something out i don't know she's an adult if that's what she wants to do fine did she want to get out of it did she need some help in extricating herself that's what i was trying to find out but i didn't want to say i know you're doing this first of all because i had it like second or third hand plus it's no good was going to come in that conversation so i tried to do it in a way where if she wanted to say i have a problem or i got trapped or that was a window for her to do it that was what i was thinking so you've said you don't remember telling her that you would date someone as young as 22 but do you remember judy mogul or jill de rosier telling you that she says you said that do you remember that i don't remember if judy or jill told me i know she has said that but um so you don't remember whether coming from judy or james no but it it i don't even understand how i could have possibly said it because it doesn't make any sense to me you know sometimes i can make a bad joke or a throwaway line or something but what is that what is the significance of 22 or in the 20s you never said anything like that no okay and did judy and judy mogle and jill de rose when when conveying what charlotte bennett told them did they tell you that they found her to be credible no they never said that did they give you any sense of what she felt about charlotte bennett's credibility they told me their uniform feeling was this is a woman who had gone through sexual assault and my word is fragile i don't know what word that they would use but melissa's point was sort of their point which is this is a sensitive fragile woman and it's dangerous to be engaging with her that concept strikes close to home for me there are young people who go through things and i dealt with charlotte the way i would want someone to the exact same way there was never a suggestion that i wanted to date charlotte all right i mean just to think about it that was never the concept of grooming nothing happened but i felt like we were on a path to something maybe happening she felt that way i understand that i respect it but this is all her perception right do you remember the conversation you had with melissa derosa in the car how did she react her point what she says to me i don't know why you're engaging with this uh woman you have a personal conversation with her you know how this is in her word but she's fragile she's a little bit off you put the whole administration in jeopardy and i said i find that offensive i find that offensive and who the heck are we if we're gonna say well this kid went through this you better not engage send them down the hall and let them work for somebody else you know i get pragmatically yeah that would be smart and a lot of my life is pragmatic and i live most of my life pragmatic because it's a pragmatic world and risk is not a good thing in my life but i thought i could help her i thought i could help her i studied this i've read books i lived this she needs help and i thought i could help her and you know what i still am schizophrenic on the whole thing well you should have just walked away yeah i should have just walked away but you know what that stinks on a human level that just stinks so that's that and what did melissa derosa leave the car and sort of storm out of the car do you remember that oh it was a bad conversation did she leave the car well she said you had to go to lunches go to lunch did you end up having a conversation with her later that evening that day i don't remember you speak with anyone else about the conversations with charlotte bennett no then at some point i had a conversation with june and judy judy and jill and that was it how about stephanie benton not really did she tell you that she thought some of the things that she heard you said were inappropriate look they all want i don't know what she said you didn't i don't remember saying it to me they all want to now say you shouldn't be talking to a woman who is a victim of sexual assault you shouldn't be talking to her about her rape yeah i get it how about about other things about dating girlfriends no one said there was no girlfriend talk there was no girlfriend talk you find out and you're going to say nothing knowing that a person often acts out and here she is a kid and you say absolutely nothing well it's not your place yeah i know so on that point other than asking her have you been with an older man you didn't say anything else i never said the tattoo conversation we had i never said but she may have heard that's where nobody's going to see it uh i never said but the uh older man you said he said but she didn't respond older man she didn't respond well i thought the older man he meant him yeah i get what she thought that's not what i was saying but that's what she thought i get it uh the either looking on social media all these women want to date you yeah go find me a great candidate 22 i would have never said 22 and it doesn't make any sense anyway and she then imputes it to mean her i don't get that but then why don't putin i have just said your age but uh and those were and then the speech conversation do you remember after charlotte bennett expressing her concerns to uh gilda rozier that and judy mogul that there was a change in protocol or practice put in place about whether young staffers could staff you alone or should staff you alone i don't remember i don't remember a protocol change and i don't think there has been a protocol i remember having a conversation that look how do you protect yourself about against any allegation you'd always have to have a witness now i'm pretty paranoid as you know having investigated me for so many years the there's always always virtually always additional staff there everybody can hear everything doors are open [Music] but you'd have to have a witness literally full time all the time is the only way to deal with that problem so was there do you recall a discussion about a practice where it would not be one we talked about having a full-time witness situation you didn't have a discussion about how there should you should not be uh left alone with i didn't have that conversation because it's not just female it's male staffers what would stop a male staffer from walking up and saying he said uh let's go to lunch i took that as a come on you'd have to have a full-time witness to everything was there any discussion with anyone about whether it would be better for a staffer not to be alone with you to protect the staffer from any inappropriate conversation no i got it to protect me no but did anyone else discuss that possibility not that i heard you remember an instance where uh were staffing you together and then left and you're alone not especially but i remember and you remember melissa derosa calling you to say to wrap up the meeting because you were alone with no she may have done that but i didn't know that's what it was about at some point in time did you learn that charlotte bennett would be going public with her allegations basically when she did okay how did you learn about it i think she did it and then you learned in the new york times yeah okay and when you read the new york times did you read the new york times piece no you've never read it okay can we if you can turn to page tab 65 um so this was the new york times piece that talked about her allegations so you didn't read it when he came out no you haven't read it to this day nope are you not curious about what it is she's saying no i mean i know basically what you're saying how do you know because i've talked to people about it and i responded to press questions okay so who who told you the details the press person would have told me okay who's that as a party and do they walk it uh through yes yeah line by line or else everything i had to know but you didn't read it yourself no uh do you not normally get uh articles or press clippings that mention you sent to you yeah no they do and do you what do you normally do when you get them uh if i i normally read them unless i don't want to read them okay and this is one you didn't want to read right because you knew well did you know it was going to be no because i talked to somebody about you know i get briefed on what's in the news anyway okay and so you were briefed by the press people you didn't read this correct right um you didn't read any reporting of uh charlotte i didn't watch her on the tv right you didn't watch on tv did you get uh a report of the notes that uh judy mogul and jill derosier took from their conversations with yes okay how do when did that happen i don't remember but at one point i got a report on their notes did they literally read the notes on a call no they just talked to me about it okay and so through those uh and in did you respond to the allegations to them i told them what i told you okay uh and so it wasn't like a was it a point by point uh discussion or just generally what you were thinking and how you interpret it how you think she interpreted it yeah well it's all her interpretation you did all the men he meant him yeah i know that's what you think okay so if you go to and then did you make public statements about charlotte bennett's allegations i responded to the press okay and who did you discuss the response to the press with i would have talked about the press team in general okay and if you look at tab 74 this is one of the statements that you issued yep and you say ms bennett's initial impression was right i was trying to be a mentor to her see that yes okay when you when you said then her initial impression was right i was trying to be a mentor to her uh how did you know what she was alleging was it just through what the press people were reporting to you yeah without but june and judy and jill said uh she thought i was being paternalistic and a mentor and then she changed or she said that somewhere but was everything she was saying were you being a mentor to her in your mind with respect to everything yes you said you said yes including the the comments about uh the girlfriend chelsea handler she said to me i'm looking i'm looking through your social media i said if i'm a good candidate okay find me a good candidate that wasn't mentoring but what was i supposed to say to us in response to that i'm just trying to understand is that that wasn't part of it was a throwaway line it was an insignificant conversation that part was an insignificant conversation that's not mentoring no that was insignificant she also said hello she wants to say goodbye she also said do you want a cup of coffee do you need a sandwich yeah no no but those things she didn't allege to be fair she didn't allege the hello goodbye were things that she took issue with she did specifically allege that the conversations about girlfriends you're saying you deny saying i understand 20 younger but our allegation is let's see the 22. i didn't say that but even if i said that how was that a solicitation of her okay so that you deny the 22 right did you ever say to people in your did you ever consider saying i never said that that part i think i did say i never said that when did you say i said i never said what she heard are you referring you said you never said that are you referring to the press are you referring internal discussions let me say publicly yeah to the press publicly i believe i've never i didn't say what she heard okay but it's not i haven't seen it in any of the statements but you know you could have said it but that you know it is what your rat collection is you know you've said to people i did not say what she heard yeah i did not say what she heard okay but you haven't publicly said i never said um i'm okay with anyone as young as 22. i think i have publicly yeah okay is that a do you remember having that discussion with people we should we say that or no no i think i've said that okay how about going uh saying that her allegation that you said you were lonely and wanted to uh ride on a motorcycle into the mountains with a woman remember any discussions about denying that allegation no i i i don't know that anyone asked me but i would you would deny it yeah although you've testified you have had you have said things to people about adirondacks but without the woman yes but you haven't have you had discussions about denying that allegations i don't have discussions i think i've denied these statements publicly i've talked to the press 11 times since then you know we've had these conversations have you uh did you ever have any discussions with charlotte bennett about the last time she's hugged anyone no except in the vein of the isolation of covid and a situation where you can't touch anyone there is no hugging there is no human touch there's no humanity it's isolation what does that do to uh people's psyche and the mental trauma that we're gonna have to deal with after this fact okay but not specifically to charlotte bennett have you when's the last time you've really hugged anyone have you ever said anything like that no except in the context of you can't hug anybody during covert okay in that context have you asked her have you in that specific context so with charlotte bennett you don't remember saying anything like that at all that's the answer that's the answer except i did say during covert you can't even hug anyone yours you don't go to dinner with anyone you know it's the whole concept but you don't remember having that conversation with charlotte bennett you don't remember saying when she said when she talked about hugging family members you said no a real hug no if you look family members i would consider a real hug yeah or parents but yeah you don't remember having that question if you look at tab 80 you issued another statement this one the third paragraph says just just for the record date this is a july 13 20. february 28th february 20th we may have printed it that day okay it says this statement you say at work sometimes i think i'm being playful and make jokes that i think are funny i do on occasion tease people in what i think is a good-natured way i do it in public and in private etc etc this statement about being playful and making jokes was that uh in your mind responsive to anything that uh charlotte bennett was alleging i think it was just generic just generic yeah do you remember uh being playful in making jokes with charlotte bennett yeah sensitively what are some examples of the playful and jokes i don't remember specifically but i try to make jokes during the course of the day okay but you don't have you don't recall any specific jokes with child dependent well when you every time she said the number of push-ups and you said it had to be higher well that was an ongoing joke not a haha joke but other than that find me a good candidate that's a joke anything else no the bottom you say separately my office has heard anecdotally that some people have reached out to ms bennett to express displeasure about her coming forward my message to anyone doing that is you have misjudged what happened what matters to me and my administration and you should stop that now period see that yeah had you heard that people had been reaching out to ms bennett to express this pleasure she must have said that i hadn't heard that you hadn't heard that um did you hear of anyone researching uh charlotte bennett's past no if you hear people um looking for and looking up her the any complaints that came out of hamilton college no is that something that you would have uh wanted people to do no you never heard of it can you turn to tab 112 [Applause] and this is a text uh between melissa derosa and madeline cuomo yeah and it attaches a what appears to be a a tweet um that says um and then it says do we know about this involving charlotte bennett were you told that people were affording uh texts like this and looking into hamilton college no but there's a lot of people on twitter and the internet who say all sorts of stuff right but this one was forwarded to between melissa derosa my sister madeline is on twitter and the internet and engages people but no neither of them spoke to you about it no it looks like something that was sent to madeline from okay how about if you can turn to tab 13 the next page uh there's an email from to madeline donohue and then it gets forwarded on to steve cohn yeah i don't know about it i don't know yeah i see it did anyone talk to you about this no steve cohen no tap 14 114 114 sorry from uh chris cuomo to various people not including the governor not including the governor no madeleine probably sent it to him you haven't had discussions with anyone no about anything like this have you um heard of or been part of any discussions uh into finding negative information about any of the complainants no okay is that something you uh specifically directed anyone not to do no one ever suggested that we would do it or were doing it no yeah but you never told anyone let's not do that nobody suggested we do it okay uh how about um looking for negative investigating information about uh lawyers involved in in our investigation what do you mean by negative information identify you know what opposition research is oh it's support category yeah so fair to say identify negative information about people that's uh opposition research what are you worried about you just the question have you had any discussions about looking for negative information about any of the lawyers involved in the investigation no are you aware of anyone doing that well no but your history is well known uh and miss clark's practice is well known and the facts of this situation are well known the attorney general had a conflict i tried to bring in an independent council they created political pressure against chief judge k and committee judge fury uh and federal judge or whoever else the referral was conditioned on picking an independent reviewer i had a conversation with the attorney general where i said there can't be any games here i said the reviewers can't have any bias can't be political no plaintiff's lawyers she said no no no no don't worry about that you then get selected as a reviewer you as a reviewer i believe is such a perversion of fair independent fair reviewer with no predisposition investigated from the years your office compared me to trump your office was sanctioned by judge caprone you know that i said that preet and you were unethical and should not be considered for attorney general you know that conversation because you referred to it in an interview with me cleary gottlieb i had questions with your closest associate uh conflicts with when i was attorney general uh preet pahara has political aspirations may have political aspirations against me his rabbi your rabbi senator schumer called for my resignation i mean the concept of you as the resolution to the conflict as an independent reviewer is bizarre to me and raises ethical and legal questions the way you then have conducted the review itself i believe raises ethical and legal questions well the balance to kim is miss clark with all due respect i believe comes with a bias given her occupation and her practice so those are facts that are established not from negative research or opposition research and those were facts that you were both aware of before you got involved in this is not the u.s attorney's office if the governor delegates jurisdiction based on a condition of picking an independent reviewer and the reviewer is not independent that's illegal and an ethical matter but that has nothing to do with opposition research that's just a state of facts and so these um state of facts that that you've listed what have you done or directed people to do to follow up on these theories that you have those aren't theories those are just facts okay to follow up on those facts or develop them i haven't done anything have you been uh have you shared those uh views with others in the executive chamber i've shared those views with people who i have counseled me those facts when the new york times wrote the story yesterday they went right to your history etc right that wasn't prompted i mean how you didn't think this was going to be an issue is just beyond me ethics law the even the appearance of impropriety so those are well-known established facts that's not opposition research negative research or anything have you shared those views of any uh with any potential witnesses in the investigation no okay any potential claimants no uh you're aware that a number of uh current members of the executive chamber have made complaints of sexual harassment correct current members yeah i'm aware of what you've told me well there's been reporting of yeah is there something that if you could say a number of current members if you could be specific because you've been doing an investigation so publicly there are uh at least two current members of the executive chamber who have publicly come forward with allegations you aware of that who are you referring to fill me back are you aware of any current members of the executive chamber who have publicly made allegations of sexual harassment against you one who who besides brittany okay are you you're aware of brittany i'm aware of brittany okay did you share or with brittany comisso the views about the views you have about the investigation no okay how about alyssa mcgrath oh you're right two uh no okay how about you so we were clear when you said alyssa mcgrath is that the second person you were just referring to okay how about alyssa mcgrath no okay how about others they work with no if you give me a moment i was going to move on are you all good okay so if we can switch to brittany commission when do you when did you first meet brittany comissa i met her a few years ago she was working for a different office during covert the office she was working with basically dissolved so last year she came over to help in the with the executive administration and who was she working with before she came over to john majuri and what was her role with john majori basically an executive assistant okay um and do you remember going to um john majori's birthday party at a drive-in movie theater yes does he do that every year i hope not it was a bizarre kind of birthday party but i went you remember going one year yeah 2019 sounds right okay uh and do you remember uh seeing ms camiso there no do you remember joking to mr majori that you were jealous that ms kamisso was his assistant no do you remember um talking to miss kamissa miss kamisso saying she works for john majori and you saying no you ultimately work for me because he works for me i don't remember that but i may have said that that sounds like something that you might say as a joke yeah okay and then about what a point in time if you can recall the approximate period did she start working with you more closely majori left the administration during coving when he left the administration uh she started working with def uh stephanie did you play any role in having her uh no come over and work with you no that just happened yeah okay and do you understand her off is dissolved right john quit well he took a leave of absence technically and then stephanie must have brought her over to be part of stephanie's team okay and you say stephanie must have brought over you don't remember being playing any role in in that decision you just at some point she started working with you yes and you understand that uh do you remember that in sort of the early part of covid late spring and summer she also started helping with doing testing called the testing executive chamber i think that's what she was she started doing i think was coordinating the cover testing and then at some point did she start doing work for you in terms of answering phones dictation yes notes yes through stephanie and that operation and how would you um and there were there a number of other people who were playing that role at the time during covet yes this is the whole team that worked for stephanie who were the others that were doing that last year you'd have to ask stephanie there were a number of people uh well uh were more senior than there were a group of junior uh brittany was there uh elicited less of an extent uh and some others okay our regular executive assistants longer longer term and senior more senior uh brittany and alyssa were two that more more recent more temporary more recent okay and then how was it determined that who would on any given day help you with phones dictation stephanie would basically do that and how would you and sometimes would the help be at the mansion yes very often because during during the pandemic were you mostly at the manchester was more at the mansion how often did you go into the office i would go into the office in the morning do the briefing and then go back to the mansion and so uh would pretty much every day someone come over to the mansion to help you with phones and how was it determined that who would be coming on a given day stephanie would basically make that determination unless uh the preference i would to the extent i would have a preference is if i was in a rush and i was doing dictation uh is the best at dictation and typing uh then well stephanie is the best but then i have to take her away from everything that she's doing stephanie uh brittany in dictation typing and it was just some administrative stuff then it didn't really matter how about alyssa alyssa was would be below below brittany and what you talking about is dictation the dictation and then the typing the dictation they do on shorthand they do on a pad and then they have to type it and then they have to bring it back and some of them are better than others oh yeah okay and in terms of typing what do you mean speed or quality or both it went together with the dictation so they would take the dictation then they would type it i'm like from the old days before tape recorders and lawyers type their own stuff so the differential is is very high if it was just administrative test then it didn't matter to me sometimes i would say please send and if i couldn't get say um and so did brittany commisso uh sometimes cover you at the mansion to provide this work sometimes on weekends and what were your interactions with uh brittany commissioner nice fine she's very chatty she's outgoing a little bit of a character entertaining uh friendly friendly affectionate yeah did you find her to be flirtatious you could say she was flirtatious yeah okay were you flirtatious back with her i was i would say i was warm back okay um did you would you talk to did you talk to mr about her personal life she was a chatty person so she was would always be chatting about everybody's personal life she was like a uh gossip hotline who because she lived in albany and she was from the albany government crowd and she was out and about in albany so she would know who was at dinner with whom you know who was dating whom you know she was and would you talk to her about it she was entertaining she would just talk okay did you talk to her about her marriage there came a point in time when i talked about her marriage when did that happen she came in one day and said she was getting a divorce where did this happen this was in the mansion okay which didn't stun me and then she was concerned about job security because she was getting a divorce and then she said she had so she and she had to leave now in the afternoons and she was worried about money and what did you say i responded more to the divorce side uh and i said divorce is uh serious she has i said divorce is serious uh i'm divorced i can tell you it's not that the other person disappears you have to raise the kids i did not uh on the job i said basically what we can figure it out there are a lot of single mothers in government she went back to i don't want to move my job i want to keep the same job and then started on saying and if i leave at three then can i get the overtime on the weekends because i need the money that was beyond me it's not what i do so i just left that alone did you mention anything in this conversation about marital counseling with her oh i think i may have said did you go to counseling she was then offended on two fronts she got upset she was sitting on the other side of the desk for me she got upset and said you're saying i'm a bad parent because i'm getting divorced i'm going to hurt and she got upset about that and then she was also upset uh that i wouldn't say to her you can have the same job on whatever schedule she was talking about and get the overtime on the weekends to make up the money that she would lose and i didn't say don't worry you have the job you will stay in the governor's office she wanted to stay in her current position i didn't know enough that's not something i would do stephanie would have to do that her supervisor would have to do that so i just stayed away from that you just said for a moment stay in the governor's office did you say she could stay in the governor's office no she wanted an assurance that she could stay in the office because she was getting a divorce and her husband was the politically connected person did you know who her husband was yeah who was her husband have you met him no but i know his father and is in a political associate of mine and [Music] my understanding is that's how she got her job and this conversation you had with her was it one conversation or several i think this was one conversation and about when was it it was about november of last year and did she just bring up the subject out of the blue or were you talking about i wasn't surprised about divorce because she had made comments about people that she was seeing etc before but she said out of she said i want to talk to you about something important on that day yes and then after this conversation you had with her did you ever revisit this subject with her she would bring it up to me i would say go talk to stephanie she was very concerned about the job security my understanding is she then went to melissa and stephanie a few weeks later and said i i am getting a divorce i don't want to be transferred i want to stay here this is my dream job i get up every morning loving to come to work i need a raise and they wouldn't they said we can't give you a raise now's not the time we have a budget deficit we're not doing raises now she then after that went to stephanie and said the same basic thing i love the job i want to stay in the job please don't transfer me um i think she was thinking because she was getting a divorce then she was not going to have the same political uh clout through the fam for her father-in-law and husband and stephanie said basically you have to talk to somebody else who makes the determination about overtime what she was trying to work out i think was complicated so i think stephanie said i can't do it and send it to someone else how did you learn all this the other the follow-up from stephanie benton uh i had conversations with from stephanie melissa any direct conversations with miss comisso about this yeah whenever i would see her she would raise the basic topic you know i don't want to leave and i would keep saying talk to stephanie talk to melissa okay um would you did you ever talk to did you know that uh ms camiso and melissa mcgrath were friends oh yeah like live since childhood yeah did you ever talk to ms comisso about alyssa mcgrath's marriage no she was they would talk in front of each other that she was i think unless it was already divorced okay and they would did you they would talk in front of you or with you about i'm sorry started they were both married because the conversation about the mingle mamas they said they were going to florida together with one other friend and they were going to leave their husbands and the kids behind and they were single and ready to mingle except they weren't sitting and i said yeah you were the mingle mamas that's where that line came from that was my quote-unquote joke playful response so that the the claim that you called the mingle mama's that is true they said we're single and ready to mingle i said and they were kidding about that too you know it was all playful they were together and i said oh yeah you're the mingle mamas who are going to go to florida or something like that okay and how did you know about that allegation did you read that article about listen yeah i heard that allegation that was from melissa i think yeah and so that how did you learn about that allegation i think i read about it that that article you read yeah or they relate it to me and with respect to that just on that point to make sure that he gets contacts how do you get news each day governor you get the clips i get the clips but the clips you know there are 100 clips every day so i also have a phone call with the press office where they'll bring things to my attention and will they read it to you or no they just give me a synopsis of what it is and did you um let me just look give me a moment so that was the you recall the conversation about a trip they were planning to take to florida but they that's what they said to me yeah uh and do you remember them saying asking brittany uh at the time whether she would be what's your recollection of whether britney kamisa was married at that time i think they were both married okay and did you ask them whether they would hook up with other men they said we're going down with we have no husbands and no children which i took as the implication of we're going to go down and date we have no husbands and no children with us but they did have a husband's intro but they were and they said single and ready to mingle single suggests you're not married and my joking response was mingle mamas which wasn't a great joke um do you remember uh ever talking to ms comisso about your personal life no my personal life is sort of very well known did you ever say anything to her to the effect of can you find me a girlfriend no or similar conversations about the fan mail you were getting no they would all joke about the fan mail that was a major running theme in the media and did your staff and family joke with you about that yeah everyone did but you never said to miss commisso help me find a girlfriend yeah um did you talk to ms comisso about what the acceptable range age range might be no for a girlfriend of yours no okay did you ever talk to her about uh someone in their 30s or 40s uh having to be in their 30s or 40s or the public wouldn't accept it no did you ever comment on her appearance from now from 22 to 40. the no i would say you know might i have said you look nice today or something like that i might have said that but no i think more than that you might have said it but you don't know i don't i don't know for sure but i might have said it okay how about saying that she looks good for her age no that's an insult how about saying that she looked good for a mother no that's an insult the question is did you know you haven't said anything like that no you've never insulted anyone i have insulted people uh but i didn't insult her okay how about her hair have you ever commented on her hair no is it possible you could have commented on her hair i don't remember anything extraordinary about her hair or any change or anything do you remember uh telling her that you don't like her hair up no i don't believe i said that i don't even know that she wears i don't remember her ever wearing i don't remember how she wears her hair frankly um have you ever commented on her legs no have you ever said anything to the effect of it's about time you show off some more leg no no i would never say that have you ever uh talked about her height not that i remember have you ever talked about how how much taller you are to her the we took she asked me to take a selfie with her i she says somewhere i think i asked her for a selfie i never ask anyone to take a selfie because they are a pain in the neck to take a selfie they're awkward and she asked me to take a selfie i then had to get ben down to get in the same frame with her on the selfie and i may have said something at that time i got your way down here to get in this selfie with you but that's the only thing i can imagine where that would have come up okay how about was there an instance where you measured your height with her and you stood behind her and showed that you're almost ahead taller than her was there ever time do you remember her and alyssa mcgrath together ever working on putting together your state of the state book they may have done that i don't remember it but they may have done it and you remember that happening on a weekend where she was wearing a sweatshirt no normally they don't uh how do how does they don't wear sweatshirts yeah normally they dress up more correctly yes okay do you ever remember seeing her in a sweatshirt at the no working on the book no do you ever remember telling her that she can take the sweatshirt off because of the heat no okay have you called her by any terms of affection like honey sweetheart darling same answer as before i'm aware of it i try not to say it i may slip on occasion and your answer before was that more recently you try not to right yes at one time years ago i said it with more frequency now i'm conscious of it and i try not to say it but if i can slip especially if i'm not aware of it or tired or like in a semi secure location okay but so you don't remember specifically using any of those terms with ms comisso but it's possible is that right it is possible you don't have a specific memory of ever doing it no but a generic honey or something i'm i make a conscious effort not to i may slip on occasion can we take a bathroom oh yeah break oh great in a while okay okay i'm just gonna run out say four or five three fifty six people yeah four five nine minutes yeah how much more do you have times 4 15 p.m this begins media five on the record governor did you have any nicknames you used for ms kamisa not that i recall you call her brit maybe britannica maybe um did you on occasion give her hugs she was very affectionate i would say more she was the initiator of the hugs she said that she was italian and italians are very affectionate people uh but she was a hugger have you said that as well that your italian italians are affectionate people yes not to her but generally that's something yeah no i don't disagree with the factual thing i think italians are affectionate people i think a lot of people are affectionate people some people are not that affectionate uh and so you have hugged ms comisso i have hugged her and she has initiated many of the hugs would you say she's initiated all of them no and by initiate what do you mean she's the one who comes to you for the hug you know i'm more in the reciprocal business if you walk up to me like this i'm going to hug you okay and how i want to make you feel uneasy you know how often have you hugged miss kaminso it would depend on the frequency of how long it's been since i saw her or whether she was initiating the hug okay uh was it every time you saw her it wasn't every time if i had just seen her okay and uh how close were the hugs with miss comisso a normal hug were they particularly closer or tighter than other hugs you've had with staffers she i would say she was a tight hugger if there's such a use of the english language she would pull you in tighter oh yeah she was tighter she was an affectionate person and a hug can go from like a slap on the back right a man hug slap on the back to uh more affectionate sincere hug uh i would say she was an affectionate hugger okay and so when she would hug you tight would you push back or would you go along with it no i would go along with it i don't want to make anyone feel awkward about anything you know but you felt she more than other people other staffers you hugged would be more affectionate yes she's more affectionate than most people on staff i mean you were hugging each other where were her hands placed her hands would be around my back and where were your hands placed around her back and was it her mid back her upper back her lower back she is shorter than i am should i be mid back um did you ever kiss uh miss commission on the cheek i don't recall doing it but i'm sure i did it you don't recall a particular occasion no how about uh one cheek or both cheeks do you remember i do not remember how about on the mouth or the lips you may have fallen to the italian two cheek kiss but i don't remember that never kissed her on the lips um even sort of um where one of you went in for the uh cheek kiss but then lips ended up touching i don't remember a mistaken lip kiss so you don't remember any kiss on the lips with her no um did you ever uh touch her on the butt no okay did you ever while you were hugging lower your hands to her butt not her butt may have hugged her in the lower back on your prescription before near butt area but not at her honor okay never grabbed her butt no the butt cheeks no no no no no no no did you ever massage her lower back while you hugged no you don't remember you know i don't remember ever massaging her lower back i don't know what that even means but no um do you remember while giving her a hug ever saying that this feels good no i don't remember ever saying that and you've also you've taken pictures with ms kaminska right oh yes and uh and there's a couple of pictures in if you look at cap 20 21 and 22. [Applause] so these are uh pictures with 20 21 and 22 pictures of you and ms kamisso and alyssa mcgrath yep there they are and you'll see that in um 20 we'll start at 20 it looks like you're maybe going in for a kiss on the forehead that must be the reported kiss on the forehead what it looks like is that something do you remember kissing melissa mcgrath on the forehead no but it looks like i'm going to kiss her on the forehead okay can we just go through who's who in this first yeah sure thank you so who is this alyssa is on the right okay and brittany commission's on the left yes wearing like the i don't know is that like a leopard skin yes top okay and have you kissed do you remember have you kissed britney commission on the forehead i don't remember kissing on the forehead but i may have and if you look at tap 21 see where your hands are with respect to both uh yes commissioner mcgrath ms mcgrath is that uh is that positioning of your hand for pictures uh common for you yes you grab them and pull them in for pictures yes you're trying to look warm affectionate right you know you want to take a picture that suggests that you know the person and you're friendly with the person do you ever remember telling alyssa mcgrath that it's unfortunate they haven't she has a name tag in the picture she shouldn't have a name tag i don't remember telling her that but they very often will tell people when we take the pictures take your name tag off so it's not in the picture the advanced staff these were look like it's at the christmas party so there's like 500 people there the advanced man or body person will very often say do you want to take your name tag off so it doesn't look as staged the photo when you get it back it doesn't look like you were at an event where i didn't know who you were and you had to wear a nametag did you ever take someone's name tag off their chest yes but i won't take it off if it's in a very sensitive position i think more men's name tags off a lapel and sometimes a woman if it's like on a blazer or something but you've never taken a woman's name tag off if it was near her breasts yeah if it's in a sensitive area then i'll say to them do you want to take off your nametag do you remember ms comisso coming over to the mansion to help you on new year's eve in 2019 no not particularly okay um and you mentioned earlier about the selfie do you remember on how many occasions you took the selfie took a selfie with ms kamisso i remember once and i remember her saying she's going to send it to alyssa and alyssa is going to be so jealous which was peculiar to me but i remember saying that so that day that you said that what do you remember where were you i think was in the mansion office okay and she was there to help you that's why she would be there do you remember what it was she was helping with okay and uh how did the discussion of a selfie come up you said she raised it she said can we take a selfie okay and what did you say i said okay and did you take us where in the mansion did you take the selfie i don't remember where do you remember whether you were standing or sitting no okay do you remember at any point she had to delete the selfie because it was blurry and didn't come out well and take another one okay so do you you remember just one selfie yes or no yes okay well let me just have it right there did you know how many times she hit the button no okay but you remember you don't remember her uh there being blurry ones that she had to no one of the reasons i don't like to take selfies is there's never just one selfie they can't figure out how to turn around the camera doesn't work i have to take a second will you cut your head off okay do you remember uh taking one set of selfies or a selfie standing up and then taking another uh seated on the couch i don't remember do you remember where your hands were when you took the selfies no okay uh was your hand was your hand ever on her butt no i don't believe my hand was on her button and she wanted to take the selfies and however we took the selfie i'm sure is how she wanted to take the selfie okay and then you said she what did she what did you what did you say about sharon send this to alyssa and she's going to be so jealous okay and what did you say nothing but i thought it was peculiar that she was going to send it to alyssa who's her good friend and to make alyssa jealous it just rang a little bit peculiar did you see her actually send it to alyssa i don't think so did she did she tell you what alyssa said in response to i don't think so have you ever seen that selfie i think she showed it i don't remember since that day you don't remember seeing no okay did did you tell her it'll not to show or share that with anyone the selfie yeah no you didn't say anything about the selfie no not that i remember after that um day where you took the selfie did you give her a hug when she left it may very well was this just my time right this was new year's eve okay 2019. okay at any point in time did you ask ms kamissa whether she had fooled around with anyone outside of her husband while she was married no she volunteered on a number of occasions that she was seeing other people she volunteered that yes okay who did she say she'll see when she went to florida she said she had an old boyfriend who she was going to see in florida she said they would often go to the saratoga race track which is north of albany it's a big attraction and what did you talk about that other than just receiving that information i didn't talk about it now did she tell you that she went to saratoga with miss mcgrath yes did you ever say that you wish you could join them no i may have said i'd love to go there it's beautiful it is you know saratoga is a big attraction up there uh so i may have said i'd love to go but i don't remember saying that but just it was a nice line um do you remember uh in november of last year um middle of november ms kamiso being sent over to help you uh with an app in your iphone again the note app the notes app or you know what you've testified earlier about not knowing the apps but to help with your iphone do you know the date november 16. i don't remember a particular time no but in the november time frame of last year was a period when occasionally ms kamisa would come to help you yes uh you don't remember a particular instance where she was helping you with your phone no and um when sh when when you work uh in the mansion generally where are you i go back and forth between the family room downstairs and the office on the second floor okay and do you remember were there occasions when mrs miso would come to help you and you'd be on the first floor or the second floor or was it more common one or the other both but again remember the setting there are numerous people in the mansion who are coming and going uh so you have numerous you always have numerous staff there you know 5 10 15 people depending on the day coming and going do you ever remember giving her a hug and then uh putting her hand your hands on her breasts i that never happened that never happened and so you don't remember ever uh putting your hand in your breath it happened that never happened do you remember any instance where she said to you uh while you were hugging that you're gonna get us in trouble that never happened do you ever remember you saying i don't care that never happened let's just you know one point has to be a little reality to touch a woman's breast who i hardly know in the mansion with 10 staff around with my family in the mansion to say i don't care who sees us you've investigated me for six years i would have to lose my mind to do some such a thing it would be an act of insanity to touch a woman's breast and make myself vulnerable to a woman for such an accusation i am 63 years old i have been in every public office state federal numerous people have tried to set me up i'm always wary of people i have phenomenal precautions it would be an act of insanity can you ever hear me saying [Music] somebody says to me you're going to get us into trouble i don't care i mean it's not to me it's just not even feasible understood and i'm as you've noticed i'm not engaging and i don't intend to uh on sort of how long i've been investigating you or otherwise i wouldn't want the silence to go as some kind of uh acceptance of it but i don't i don't think the purpose of this is for me to engage in those things but i just want to make that clear just a second now you've described miss camiso is a very outgoing friendly person did you ever observe her being a nervous person no did you ever see her get flushed or get hives on her neck or her chest or her face no um at any point in time did you notice a change in her oh i'm sorry yes yes she would get uh blotches and what what occasions do you remember seeing her get blotches she would get nervous on dictation when she thought she messed up or didn't get everything and she had to bring something in she really wanted to do a good job and she didn't have the same skill set as she just was not as proficient with after the dictation then they type it up they have to clean it up they have to put in grammar they have to change the spelling they have to fix some words they're supposed to clean it up a little bit she was not as good at it she wanted to be better and she would get very nervous when she thought she wasn't doing a good job or she and she would come in very apologetic you know i tried but i didn't really get this paragraph i think this one over here and she said at one time she would get like blotches when she got nervous and you're gesturing they were on her i think they were on her neck um and again you described her sort of a friendly outgoing person at any point in time did you notice that she was less outgoing less friendly any change in your demeanor miss clark no change in her demeanor towards me no change she did get obsessed about this job security and i knew what she was worried about because she had explained it to me at another time that because she was going to get divorced she was going to lose her job because the job was because of the husband and that she was going to lose the job because of the divorce with her husband and then she had the second issue about the financial issue with during the overtime etc so she was hyper about that issue what i didn't appreciate at the time frankly is i didn't give her reassurance on it i sent it to melissa and stephanie they said we can't give you a raise and then stephanie said i can't agree about the overtime so she was very nervous about that but other than that not at all do you know if anyone ever told her that she didn't have to worry about losing her job if she didn't have a political connection anymore i said to her don't worry don't on the first conversation i said don't worry we will work it out she kept insisting that she wanted to know how and that it would be here in the governor's office and it would remain unchanged i didn't say that because i didn't know that that was possible and it was during covet and i didn't have the time to go figure it out and stephanie didn't have the time to figure it out but i said to her don't worry you will always have a job it will always be fine she heard it as she would be transferred from the governor's office to an agency position which often happens you have the same job but you don't have the prestige of being in the governor's office and her point was but i love being in the governor's office do you ever remember her getting blotches uh either as or right after you hugged her no she would get blotches work related do you remember a time in march of this year when she was originally scheduled to cover you on a weekend then it was changed if you remember i do not remember any time that she was scheduled and it was changed if you can look at tab 98 you know binder [Applause] and 98 is a set of pinned messages that the executive chamber has produced to us between uh europe it's between miss benton's um blackberry and yours okay 99 is from you to her but the one from his bet is a little bit clearer um and so this is march six by the way she she has you as mark.2 is that okay um i'm sorry mr kim is staying yeah she asks i'm trying to find a nurse and then the next um she says to you i will come you say no and then there are parts of this that are redacted um by the way do you i'll ask you after you've read the rest read the rest of this whether you remember the parts that are redacted and why we have been told it's privileged but okay without disclosing the substance if you remember the subject matter so it says no not you you say and then she says you say she uh she says brittany is on call today want her now you say better question mark and the next she says i called she can do i'm telling her to head there now yeah i see that yeah is this do you remember this exchange no okay so this doesn't jog your memory of a a day when uh britney was on call you know what it means so for someone to be on call yes what does that mean that uh they uh figure out beforehand who would cover saturday and who would cover sunday okay and so britney being on call was she was scheduled to cover you that day yes i think that's what she's saying and then it's changed yes do you remember the reason why uh i don't but i the way i read this as we sit here i'm saying i have to do something that's important stephanie says i'll come because as i said to you before she's the best stephanie stephanie lives stephanie works all the time come down from this is on a weekend stephanie says i'll come i say no not you because i don't want to bother stephanie but it's important i then say not you and as i mentioned to you before the second choice for me after stephanie is so she says brittany i say is better with a question mark meaning can do it she then says yes can do it after stephanie is the best at dictation and typing and as you know uh it can save you hours of time on how fast the person is on dictation and typing because i'll do five six seven drafts and if it's important and i want to get it done i want stephanie and do you remember what the subject matter was of the other the redacted parts of these tax exchanges i don't but i don't if i was speculating maria is my sister trying to find the nurse sounds like it's about my mother but i don't know do you remember what you were working on march 6th that weekend probably the budget something with the budget would you have been working on was that also around the time when you were working on drafting responses to some of the sexual harassment allegations i don't think so march you're heavy in budget season so if you go a few pages back of the same day effects chain if you look at one eight zero seven two you have you say tell her reporter is writing now if you can't anyway call her during lunch amy pretend it's inconceivable i forcibly hugged her 20 years ago and she never said anything to anyone for friends and then enemies this never came up karen publicly said do you remember around this time karen hinton's allegations had come out yeah that's what this is but you don't remember specifically what you were working on that day no do you remember whether it was uh handwritten notes that typed up or a dictation it would have been dictation probably why is that because i don't write many handwritten notes it's faster for me to dictate so dictation is more common than handwritten notes oh yeah just governor on this point on march 6 what types of things um do you remember around this period of time were on your sort of radar screen work-wise i understand mr kim just asked you about working on responses to the allegations but what other stuff that was going on we're still doing covid which was the always the biggest issue and then we're doing the budget which then has every piece of legislation that's pending right governor i want to ask you something about the mansion you talked about the i think you had a family room on the first floor and you're and the office on the second floor can you describe the layout of the office that my understanding is there's more than one room is that correct the office on the second floor has an adjoining door that goes into the bedroom suite the bedroom suite has an alcove of like a second office and then the bedroom and when you work in the second floor office what part of that suite i'm in the the office is the office not in the office itself and then there's an adjoining door into a second alcove office but i'm normally in the first office and so in the first office there's i'm trying to just picture this there's one door to to the bedroom area there's another door to the hallways yes correct and do you ever work with the door closed to the door to the hallway closed virtually never because people come in and out all the time when you're in your second floor areas did the staff ever like knock before they could interview no they just come in um and in november 2020 who else was living in the mansion at that point i can get you the exact or close to the exact people on any given day my daughters some would have three of them they would come and go their friends their boyfriend [Music] were there and then there's a full-time staff of about six people you have about 10 state police who are on the grounds who come and go and then you have people from the capitol coming and going the mansion is like a block away from the capitol so they come and go all day long this i want to stop because you had asked a question about the two doors in his office on the second floor i think the question you had asked is that there is one door that goes opens up into the bedroom area and if you could just ex explain governor that the door that goes in you call it the bedroom suite okay there's a large room next to your second floor executive office right is that correct yes that room has a desk couch television is that right yes the end of that room there is another double set of doors is that correct and are those doors normally closed during the day yes and then if you open those double doors is that then into the bedroom so when you describe a bedroom suite it is not as though you go if you were to have left your office to go into this alcove that has a desk is that right sitting area is that right you have to speak up so that they can hear you yes okay and okay and you do work in that room sometimes yes governor you carey predated my father married evangeline gouletis carrie and she wanted her own office so she built the family was in construction and they built a first lady's office adjoining the bedroom and the bedroom has these accordion doors that close and then she had the first lady's office next door to the first lady's office is the governor's office so if someone were to go into if they come into your second floor office and then let's say you were sitting in the alcove doing work and they walk in there are they when they walk in are they normally would the doors be open such that they're seeing your bedroom no that's the first lady's office no we understood that okay we understand the layout we've seen this okay i'd ask you who was living in the mansion in november 2020 you mentioned your daughters all those other people you mentioned staff people from the capitol they came in and out but that were any of them living there no not living there the november where are we with covet in november is this this is the year before covert right the november first this is well into covid oh well then then we had a covered cohort bubble my kids were all there the staff that came in on a daily basis were quarantined staff they didn't live there but there are about six quarantine staff my kids the boyfriend the friends of the friends because once you came you had to stay uh larry schwartz would live there a cousin of mine would come and go a lawyer he was helping me but on on those names you just gave like mr schwartz and your cousin do you know if they were necessarily there on a daily basis during that period of time people come and go in terms of stuff are we during the week it's november saturday it's november oh november i'm sorry this is 20 november 16. november 16th is during the week you guys know better than i do if it's during the week it was a monday according to my calendar okay then larry schwartz is up my cousin women go different periods uh stephanie was cohorted melissa was cohorted the kids were cohorted and the friends of the kids who came were cohorted you also mentioned state troopers they don't usually come into the mansion correct they come in because they're they bring in the paper the paperwork the capital will often send over paper trooper takes the paper trooper will bring it up to me sometimes the capital will send over a staff person who comes in to work with me but they also have their own they have their station outside of the mansion they have a state police state station outside but they bring in everything they bring in all the paper did there come a time when you learned that uh ms comisso had alleged that you had groped her basically the time that you made the complaint yeah how did you learn it uh i believe the council told me i want to stop any discussions on that yeah and that was before there was any public reporting about it like a couple of days okay and uh are you will you be asserting privilege over any substance of the conversations other than uh with counsel any other discussions with anyone about um uh brittany kumiso making allegations against you about groping i better remember well were you made aware for instance the times union was doing a press piece well yes the brittany's attorney calls and the attorney is a plaintiff lawyer out of albany can we yeah can we we want to take a moment to talk privilege we just have a moment sure times 4 55 p.m exclusive media five off the record times 4 57 pm it begins media 6 on the record we just want to make sure any conversations he had with his counsel are privileged and so he uh we just don't want to go into this so i think that the question i'd asked was other than discussions with council remember having any discussions with anyone else about brittany commission making allegations against you uh about groping i then had a uh conversation with the press office about a times union inquiry where times union reporter called up and uh basically knew it was brittany and said that he had a i'm getting the second hand from the press office who in the press office rich has aparted that the times union reporter said that they had a recording of a conversation between brittany and her husband and the husband said to brittany they were going back and forth on the divorce situation and the times union reporter called them and then uh the husband said it wasn't true or something like that about the divorce but did you also governor with respect to there was a times union piece in which um miss kamisa was anonymous right um and do you remember having a disc discussions with your press office about that or your staff about that yeah but i don't remember what was in that one versus okay okay you um do you remember learning either from the times union piece or otherwise that uh ms commisso it was being reported that mr miso had a uh a reaction to uh your press conference where you said you had not touched anyone inappropriately i don't remember that okay you did you read the times union piece on it was it sent to you in yoga yeah again it was sent to me but you know look i get let's say i get 100 clips if i were to read 100 clips i wouldn't start my day until noon so a person from the press office calls me up and basically says this is what you need to know this article says this this is what you said this is what they may ask you i'll ask questions and what did this mean and what did this mean and then what did this mean so i get a oral press briefing but this was uh one where a staffer was alleging you had groped her that doesn't happen that's not a regular occurrence yeah no i'm sure he talked me through the piece um i was going to move on did anyone from goer ever ask you any questions about miss kamissa no not that i know has anyone from the the albany police department ever asked you any questions about miss commisso i believe we referred it to the albany police department and once it was referred to the albany police department did the albany police department ever speak to you to ask any questions i don't believe so between you and ms commissar i don't believe so okay um switching topics now was there a time when um you recall uh meeting a state trooper and then suggesting that they're good and should join the your protective services unit i was on constant alert to recruit uh more women blacks and asians to the state police detail state police detail roughly 60 people maybe two women at one time maybe three blacks i had a constant refrain with the state police we have to have more diversity on the detail and let me stop you there how large is your detail governor about 60. but see the detail is very visible when you come in you come in with let's say four troopers they can't all be white men so i had a constant refrain for recruitment so the question was do you ever remember an occasion where you met a a trooper and said we should find a way to hire him or her i have met troopers who i have said they seem good can you talk to them about coming on the detail and who would you convey that to if you were to do that it depends on who the major was at the time okay do you remember that uh happening following an event at the rfk bridge in 2017 i remember meeting two female troopers on the rfq bridge and they seemed good and smart and with it and basically said to the state police are two women state police officers uh why don't you talk to them and see if they're interested in coming in the detail and you recall meeting uh two female troopers that day yes what were their names one actually came uh her first name was her last name and you think there was another there was another one on that same yes event do you remember the event at rfk bridge i remember roughly the event there was a ribbon cutting for the rfq bridge and did you speak with the two female troopers yes i said hello you remember one who who ended up joining yes okay uh how long did you speak to before i think we were early you were either early or late but maybe five minutes something like that okay you don't know her last name no and um who did you speak to to say we should see if they would have said to whoever the trooper i was with tell the major who's the pet of the detail uh see if uh they're interested in coming into detail but this was a constant refrain of mine and does do you know who is yes he's a troop was a trooper could he have been do you remember him being the person who was with you that day he may have been okay and you said it was a constant refrain do you remember other instances where uh you met a trooper and said let's hire them i've met black troopers who i asked if they would be interested i've asked women if they would be interested the for some reason you get less money when you're on the governor's detail you don't get location pay or something in new york city so it's not easy we have made great progress we have more blacks now than ever before on a higher level we have more women than ever before but i'm still constantly looking for more diversity do you remember any others who you suggested that joined i know once that i promoted up and encourage the promotion state police is paramilitary they make all the decisions i do feel comfortable saying to them diversity is important and diversity and leadership is important so i have recommended uh promotions for people do you remember any others that you suggested that they join and they actually joined there were there were two african-american men who went for interviews i don't know if they actually made it you remember their names no and so uh with how long after you saw her uh to your knowledge that she joined the psu if you know i don't know okay did you uh the other woman that you met at the rfk bridge do you remember her name i don't remember her name but either she wasn't interested or they interviewed her and rejected her but you don't know one or the other no the second one didn't come i know that um do you remember uh any discussion about whether this trooper met all the qualifications to be on the psu no they would do the interview process etc but i i don't remember any conversation about that you have an understanding of how many years a trooper needs to have been a new york state trooper before they can join the psu no remember any discussions about any trooper who didn't meet the full time requirement joining the psu there have been a number of conversations about joinings and promotions they have these normal protocol which always favors the people who have been there longer and seniority which by definition would almost eliminate any women or blacks or asians it's more protocol than any uh there's no laws on it it's their protocol but by their protocol you'll never have blacks in leadership or women or uh asians and so i know that i've said to them i understand how you normally do it but we need more diversity here okay so do you remember any discussion you've had about any trooper who did not meet the time period required for psu but having them join in any event to as you say to increase diversity uh yes okay yes i don't remember specifically but i know that there were uh black officers who didn't follow the strict protocol that they normally used and were moved up faster how about joining the psu and it sounds like you're talking about being promoted but joining the psu joining the psu i haven't heard of any i'm trying to get i don't care how long they've been on the state police my question was simply do you remember any discussions about anyone who did not meet whatever the policy was but still being allowed to join for any reason i don't remember any conversation about they don't have any set rule they have this is how we always do it yeah you know this is how you always do it and that's why we have 57 white people so you know if you do government by the way you always do it there's not going to be any change i see no reason why a new trooper can't be on the governor's detail and work your way up i don't mean to ask this question over and over again but just simply do you remember any discussion or any do you have any knowledge of any trooper who whatever the rules are whether you believe they uh they can be or they matter or not whether any uh trooper who joined psu even though they didn't meet the time period required under their existing rules or practices yeah i just i just want to make sure that you're yes you were just asked a few minutes ago if you had an understanding about how long troopers have to be with the troopers to be part of the productive detail and your answer was no no and i don't believe there is any rule it may be this is how we always do it but you know that's not a rule okay are you aware of a uh new york state trooper manual that has requirements for joining particular units no you're not aware of that no okay are you aware of any other uh policy or practice within the new york state troopers about the requirements for any number of units including the psu no okay so in your mind there were no uh particular rules around qualifications for the um the psu no and if there were rules that stop the uh the promotion or the inclusion of diverse candidates i would say change the rules okay but i thought i'm you've added that but i'm just trying to and so because you don't know that there were any rules as a result you don't have a recollection obviously of anyone being allowed in uh without meeting those rules because you don't have an understanding of the rules i understand your position that if there were rules that prevented minorities from joining that that should be changed but i'm just trying to get the answer to the specific factual question whether you have any recollection of any trooper joining despite not meeting the qualifications it sounds like your testimony is i didn't know there were rules like that yeah i didn't know there were rules like that or if there were rules like that i think they are discriminatory and stop diversity okay um and do you know the trooper named where she was originally stationed [Applause] in new york city was she ever in the mount kisco covering your mouth kiss go home she may have been at the manchester house they rotate was she ever a member of your travel team she i think she is a member of the travel team was she ever a driver for you she has driven she's not a driver how many times has she driven a couple of times uh have you ever given this trooper a hug i will hug her hello i mean nothing new romantic no special a quick hello hug how many how many times do you think you've hugged uh this trooper oh i don't know okay have you ever uh kissed uh this trooper on the cheek maybe at a christmas party okay how about other there are other women troopers also who when i see our hug yeah no we'll get to that but with it with respect to trooper have you kissed her on the cheek i may have kissed her on the cheek you're saying at a christmas party i don't remember kissing her on the cheek but you made right do you remember ever asking her on any occasion uh can i kiss you may i kiss you no i don't remember that do you remember ever asking her may i kiss you and she said i'm sick i'm feeling sick no uh this trooper named do you ever other than a hug it sounds like you could have have you ever touched her no okay uh touched her in the shoulder oh maybe have i touched her on the shoulder may have touched him for a hug yeah okay how about in the back on a hug yes have you ever run your fingers down her back no not that i know while you were in an elevator run your fingers down no no there was nothing there was no relationship between myself and of any romantic nature whatsoever that's what you're trying that wasn't the question okay have you ever touched her in the stomach area not that i remember okay have you ever touched her while she was holding open the door run your hands across your stomach if i did it was incidental and i don't remember doing that did you ever offer this trooper a tour of the mansion not that i remember do you remember her ever saying that she was heading to albany for her sister's wedding no have you ever invited her upstairs in the mansion not that i remember have you talked to this trooper about her marital status no someone told me she's engaged or married oh no she's going yes i did she's going to get married she is engaged and either has gotten married or has a date to get married how did you learn that i think she told me when did she tell you uh this must have been last year and was this where were you when she told you this i think in the car was she driving i don't remember and well normally when you're in the car uh is there someone who's just sort of a senior investigator as your body person right there's normally two troopers in the car sometimes there's one if you're being driven somewhere quickly or not really i'll drive myself but there's normally not one trooper in the car okay and so when you learned that she was getting married uh what do you remember her saying i think did you say anything about being married to her i thought i remember you've testified previously that you've sometimes made marriage related jokes do you remember telling a marriage related joke to i may have may very well have i don't remember it did you say that uh there's no point in getting married people get will just get divorced i wouldn't say that it's not a joke or something like that no it may no that's not a line that i would use okay or just uh why get married just lose money just lose money yeah no i may make a marriage joke but i don't think those are jokes how about that marriage uh will make your sex drive go down no you've never said that to anyone i haven't said that to her and i don't remember saying that to anyone did you ever talk about her clothing no she's always been in a uniform have you ever asked her why she doesn't wear a dress no i wouldn't ask you that she's a uniform trooper the question was have you ever asked her that or anything like that not that i remember have you ever asked her why she only wears dark colors not that i remember have you asked have you ever said to her that she looks like an amish person because of the colors of the suit she was wearing not that i remember okay have you ever asked her um uh to find you a girlfriend no for discussions about a girlfriend not that i remember have you ever talked to her about age differences uh boyfriends and girlfriends not that i remember do you know how old she is no did you ever talk to her about the criteria for girlfriends for you what you were looking for no not that i remember have you ever told her not to talk to other troopers about what you were talking about i thought i remember do you remember at any point in time reporters inquiring with the troopers about the manner in which any trooper was hired for the pspsu or allowed in the psu specifically no you remember in december of last year questions being asked by times you union about the requirements for getting into the psu i don't remember that and whether any particular trooper met it or not i don't remember that and you mentioned uh other troopers how many other female troopers have there been in the psu that you recall i think we now have about five okay what do you know their names uh one woman has been there from the beginning uh i know her very well i just lost her name i haven't seen her in a while uh then there's another woman who uh i lost her name too we had a lieutenant who came and left and we had another woman who came and left three four five oh no there's a new one in albany now i forgot her name okay uh the one who's been there a long time do you remember her name i'm embarrassed that i don't but i know her a long time but i'll get her name i just haven't seen her in a long time okay have you uh hugged any of them or all of them or you don't remember the one who's been there a long time i have okay how about the others uh the one who left the lieutenant i did any of the others the other ones uh one down here i don't really know and the one in albany just started have you um kissed any of them on the cheek at the christmas party i think i kiss all of them all of them yeah okay do you kiss them have you kissed male troopers on the cheek which ones uh many of the long time ones okay and you hug male troopers yeah all the time have you talked to any of the uh start with the female troopers about their personal lives uh not especially especially the male troopers about their personal lives how about their sex lives the male troopers female troopers first no how about male troopers no more about their marriage kids things like that have you talked to any of the troopers about their clothing what they're wearing the male troopers let's start with the female troopers not that i recall about male troopers male troopers uh i recently teased one about footwear okay who's that it's not looks like they were brown shoes i took i was sensitive to the pre-tweet about you have to wear black shoes that tweet that said preet said you had to wear only black shoes and then the guy said i have to wear brown shoes that was on my mind it was last weekend the fella was wearing brown shoes okay so what did you say i said uh i said those are nice shoes or something like that okay and who was that i don't know his name okay um did you talk to um any of the troopers about finding your girlfriend male or female you talk to any of the troopers male or female about the criteria for your girl for being no your girlfriend not that i remember at all have you played any role in um you said uh i think you mentioned earlier about a view you have about promoting uh diversity in minorities have you have you played a role in decisions about who gets promoted within the psu or transferred out of it or into it on the general point of just more diversity is there any do you remember any discussions with anyone where uh a trooper that you did not find satisfactory for whatever reason uh was moved out of the psu i'm actually going to object to this on the scope of the investigation grounds i'm not sure how this is relevant to what you've been authorized to investigate which is the allegations and circumstances surrounding sexual harassment you can note the objection or you can correct him not to answer but is this a male or a female trooper you're referring to either i don't remember saying anybody should be off the detail but if there was a trooper who wasn't doing a good job or did something weird or unprofessional i may have noted that to someone do you any particular recollection of any particular troopers no okay do you know of a trooper yes what do you remember about him he recently okay how do you know that uh he was in the newspaper other than that and you remember the name yeah no i remember he was on the detail yeah do you remember you had an incident with i don't remember the incident do you remember him asking you about your schedule and you're saying don't talk to me about that talk to our scheduler i do remember him saying this goes back like years wanting to know when i was going to leave so he could go home and i said i don't know what my schedule is for the day don't rely on me for what my schedule is talk to the scheduler and then do you remember him subsequently leaving the psu shortly after that i don't know if that's why he left but i'm just talking in terms of timing do you remember him leaving i know he left i'm going to actually shut this down because i'm not wearing the scope but i'm happy to take a proper from you because i'm not i don't understand what this has to do with what the scope is for your investigation about the troopers and who moved if we're talking about sexual harassment allegations let's do in the circumstances um we want to go happy for you to happy for you to instruct him not to answer we'll we'll take that i know i'm happy to take a proper no no we're not going to give you a problem but i'm just not sure where what this giving you an opportunity to answer the questions you can not answer them that's fine we're not in a position to we're not going to be proffering why we're asking these questions and that's sort of up to you it's fine so you can't direct him not down we can move on to the next subject okay how about a trooper named do you know him i don't remember that trooper's name okay do you um do you know um yes he's a former major okay a lot of just i missed the name okay you just spell the last name okay and do you remember at any point uh another trooper who was sort of in competition with him to be promoted to senior investigator no who someone by name you don't remember it was in competition with yes no you don't remember any competition i don't even remember okay so you don't you don't remember yeah but if i don't remember him how could he be in competition with okay you don't remember him no okay but i would have to know him because he would have had to be there a long time how about you know him i don't know personally but i know who he is okay who is he he is a trooper who was on the detail who is the trooper who was dating my daughter and he got moved out of bsu right yes did you have any role in that move no should you talk to the state police about that okay i see your face he doesn't have to answer yeah i gotta say you guys it's to investigate allegations and circumstances regarding sexual harassment and i just i'm happy again to hear why this is relevant but this is not enough it's relevant because this is a biased political investigation as we know and that's what it is that's why it's relevant so go ahead i have a question um after um was moved did you talk to anyone and the state police about having only female troopers drive your daughters or cover your daughters i did not talk to anyone about that are you aware of whether only female troopers are permitted to cover your daughters i don't know what their policy is with that good now if you had any discussions with anyone about that practice or policy of who can come do you um personally review any of the promotional decisions within the psu no do you approve them no except to the extent that i make the point about diversity have you um called any uh personally called any troopers who are considering leaving the psu to stay yes i may have i don't remember who have you uh called i don't remember but if somebody was good and they were thinking of leaving would have called them to ask them to stay i may have do you know a trooper by the name of no not that i recall okay you don't remember calling her uh on her cell phone no oh yes is this a woman who was in albany do you remember calling uh i remember calling a woman who was in albany who had been there a short time and was going to leave then we would lose a woman and i called and i said give it a chance she was only there like three weeks or something and how did you get her number i would have asked somebody for a number okay do you remember uh about when that was that conversation do you remember who gave you her personal cell phone number and then did she end up leaving you know she left do you know where she is now no i guess i was going to switch topics thank you do you know i'm sorry do you need five minutes no do you know someone buying it with caitlyn yes how do you know kaitlyn she worked here do you remember how you met her yes how did you meet her i was at a fundraiser hosted by uh i and uh they introduced me to her basically as she helped organize all of today and one of the partners is a relationship who was a former congressman that said she worked with them she worked with and then went to work firm and they she's a young star she's going to be fantastic blah blah blah and how long did you meet with her at this event this fundraiser very short period of time they were said she put it together and she was key so they introduced me to her to say thank her for organizing the event okay and you remember taking pictures of her with her that day i don't but it probably did if you can turn to tap five okay is that kayla yeah it looks like her uh do you remember if you go to um the second and third photo of this it looks like you're sort of in a dance pose dance pose yeah um is this a pose that you uh frequently in and for pictures yeah it's a funny entertaining pose that's her partner behind her well that's the boss of the firm then did you after you met at this event did you suggest to anyone within your staff to reach out to her to potentially hire her i said they should interview her interview her see if she was interested for the executive assistant position here who did you tell whoever in the personnel officer told them to tell the personnel office interviewer at the event did you have any discussion with about her coming to work for state government we were kidding with her boss sis and they said she's a superstar i said oh well then we have to steal her we need the best talent in state government blah blah blah was she there when you were having that conversation with the audience and did she she give you any information about her background said she had worked for who's a long-time congressman uh and then said uh she's great she helped set up the event in what position did you when you said let's hire consider her for executive assistant here you mean new york city yes and was it sort of to help ms benton's role it was yeah primarily this is answering the phone's disposition and do you know if she who she interviewed with whoever in the personnel office i don't know and she ended up uh coming to the executive chamber yes do you remember what her salary was no you remember having any discussions about her salary no i had nothing to do with a salary as far as i know do you have any uh role in uh approving salaries for people no those positions who does the personnel office but who was was at the event where he met no his brother his brother i'm just he's like a institution as a congressman so if you work in congressman office that means you're familiar with political people and who is who and who's an important political person who's not a important political person if you work with is one of the top lobbying pr firms in the city so you know who all the players are because you deal with them regularly which is very helpful if you're answering phones so when a person calls and says you know this is uh joe smith you have an idea of who joe smith is important not important etc did you ever speak directly with former congressman no but his it's his brother or his cousin is a partner in the firm who said she was great it's in this picture 177 of 193. [Applause] and so once she joined uh the office well how often did you interact with her when i would come down here and did you sometimes travel with her she may have traveled on occasion i don't recall traveling with her do you ever remember being on there on the airplane with her i may have i don't recall helicopter i don't recall and uh do you ever remember do you remember any conversations that you had with her that are memorable no i remember the phone conversation that she raises about the telephone okay what do you remember the the main job was answering the telephone and for many months she would lose calls between her desk and my phone which is 12 feet and i said to her on a repeater basis just please let them teach you how to use the telephone and transfer a call and she continually would drop the calls and then i called someone important and she transferred the call lost the call again and i said and i was frustrated i said will you please learn how to use the telephone to transfer the calls she brings that up in some complaint but i remember that transaction do you remember saying to her or words the effect of you're going to end her career if she keeps dropping i never said anything like that do you remember ever talking to her about the the mean girls no okay and have you heard the term mean girls used i've heard the term mean girls used yeah and uh have you ever used the term english i don't think so and when it's used in the executive chamber who do you understand it refers to it was andrew ball was one of the mean girls even though he's not a girl but it was andrew ball uh who you remember from the percoco trial you put them on the uh you put him up at the trial remember uh so you're familiar with him but he was gonna governor you can do or say whatever you want i'm not gonna agree or i don't know i don't know what you're talking about that i put him understand but so you don't know who was on the stand for the paco trial again as i said this is not okay okay purpose of this yeah i understand i just didn't want all of these sort of asides to continue um you can do it because i don't think this is the purpose of today's questioning i think it is the purpose of today's question okay that's understood clearly yes so um you were talking about the mean girls and how he was one of yes other people so can you continue with that answer he was one of the mean girls uh and it was just i don't even know exactly what they were talking about do you uh was there anyone else that you understood in your senior staff to be part of them i don't know i don't know what they were talking about have you heard of a group including uh ms derosa and ms benton uh as part of the mean girls i don't know what they are talking about the mean girls started by andrew ball who would have uh uh it was his way of razzing other women in the office many of whom were he was soliciting to be girlfriends and it was his way of razzing them any conversations you remember of jill derosier talking to you about being upset or unhappy being included in a description of mean girls i don't remember her talking about that so you don't you don't remember talking to about mean girls no i don't remember talking about do you remember hearing at some point there was a thing with people calling mean girls yeah it was ball calling them mean girls is what i remember and when you say them who roughly did you understand that today depended on who he was fighting with at the time did melissa de rosa ever tell you that she didn't like it when you use the term mean girls i don't remember even talking to melissa about me and girls i don't even know what it meant it was a silly thing that he started so you're saying you never use the term mean girls to refer to any group of women in the office i don't remember ever using it there's no meaning to it it was a little silly office thing um do you remember ever asking to come into your office to help look up help look up car parts on ebay i i'm sure i don't remember that but i'm sure i asked her to come help me with the computer on occasion okay can we just take five a little bit how much longer do you guys think you're going um [Applause] yeah times five forty four excuse me six time now is 5 58 p.m begins media 7 on the record back on okay um governor before the break mr kim was asking you a series of questions about mean girls and whether you were part of any discussions in uh chambers and i know that we are in the past the ninth going to the 10th hour of this all right is can you just talk about what you remember if there were discussions in chamber if any on that issue uh we've been at a long time getting a little tired mean girls was a silly gossipy thing that andrew ball started he had a let's call it a romantic crush first on then on and he would tweak them with this mean girls uh just as a sort of a nasty little banter he would have with them and that's what mean girls were about and he would tease them with it and do you remember like anyone talking to you about it are you possibly talking to them about it at some points yeah i think they didn't like it because it was like you don't want to be a mean girl definition so they didn't like it okay but you don't remember any specific discussions but you just remember general discovery yeah they just didn't like it it was nasty and then he would say who a mean girl is and if he got married at them he would say you're a mean girl and nobody wanted to be a mean girl and then before the break there you were asked a question about a trooper by the name of the suggestion was uh when he asked me about the schedule uh that that was a bad thing he was asking me about the schedule so he could go home and release the troopers i don't know my schedule so i said to him i don't know the schedule i don't know if i have to do something at 4. i don't know if i have to do something at 5. i don't know if i have a dinner at seven don't ask me ask the scheduler because there may be something on that i don't know about so ask the scheduler otherwise i may give you the wrong information but it was not a problematic situation did you have any role in having him moved off of psu no and had nothing to do with that conversation it was just purely functional you ask me i could tell you yeah this is i'm going home except i don't know the schedule the way this place works is they could have scheduled things for me tonight i tell you i don't think there's anything on you leave and then it turns out i had to go somewhere tonight um do you did you have any did you use any nicknames for caitlyn i don't think i use the nickname i think they came up with the nickname sponge for her for a period because i said when she first started just be a sponge and absorb what's going on and just learn what's going on and i use the expression they said just be a sponge and absorb information so she had a nickname sponge more from them for a period of time did you ever use the nickname sponge i may have i don't remember using it but i remember that's uh what they that was a nickname that she had gotten and by them who are you referring to the staff here okay the senior staff what were the junior staff who were who are people you heard use the term sponge for her like the press people the advanced people the other administrative aides you had not heard melissa derosa call her a sponge i had not heard that okay how about any of the other senior staff and not that i i don't not that i recall did you ever ask caitlyn about boyfriends that she had not that i recall do you ever make you ever comment on her appearance or attire i'm aware she made a comment about i once said she had a lumberjack shirt i don't remember saying that but i could have said that about a lumberjack shirt not to waste your time i once wore a shirt like that in the into the adirondack press office so i was in the adirondacks and they made fun of me for wearing a lumberjack type shirt because i was in the adirondacks which like it was the quintessential adirondack shirt that you would wear so i may have said that it's a lumberjack shirt so you remember you've read that that was something she alleged yes when you say you read i want to be sure about this like you were aware of it i was aware that she said she was wearing a lumberjack shirt and i said something that it was a lumberjack shirt i may have said that i don't remember saying it but i missed you don't remember it for sure but you may have said it yes have you ever said anything about uh her not wearing makeup on a particular day and say did you decide not to wear makeup today or words to that effect i don't remember saying that how about when she came in um and have you ever said anything do you remember saying anything to her uh to the effect of did you decide not to get ready today i don't remember saying anything like that uh do you remember uh why she left the executive chamber she uh she did not work out on the telephones and i asked her a number of times to please learn how to transfer a call because it's it's just hard to conduct business when the person keeps dropping calls you know you call an important person and as governor you have a lot of people calling but she just didn't work out that was my main interface with her was the telephone calls other offices interfaced with her on other things that she had to do and there were just people who felt she wasn't good at what she was supposed to be doing and i don't think i ever recommended moving her but i think the decision was basically made that they would move her and that's what happened um do you know where she went no they moved her to a different position are you aware of anyone in the executive chamber reaching out or talking to someone to reach out to her after lindsay boylan's tweets in december of last year i was not aware i am now aware that someone did okay what do you what are you aware of i'm now away oh i do know where she went she was in an office with who worked here at the time then went to the who was friends with her who called her and how did you learn this i learned this getting ready for over the past couple of weeks and at the time that was reaching out to her were you aware of it i don't remember anything about that at the time and did you learn that she was asked to record that call with caitlin i was not aware of that until recently um i'm not sure we covered this we start to talk about that she might have helped you with the computer do you recall an incident where she was bent over the computer and you were sitting behind her the computer is right here at my desk the computer is uh on the desk in front of me uh i got stuck somewhere on the computer so i asked her to come help on the computer and i moved to the side and she came and was working on the computer but i had to look at the computer screen also to tell her what to do that's what she's referring to was she standing she was standing so she had to bend over to type on the computer and look at the screen a little bit because you know the computer's on the desk it's desk level your college she was wearing no she wearing a skirt i don't know i she says she was wearing a skirt but i don't know but i had to look at the screen also to tell her what to click you know on whatever i was trying to get accomplished um so we already covered a number of questions we had about alyssa mcgrath but just a couple more do you remember talking to her about her divorce no i don't remember talking to her about her divorce would you describe her as more or less chatty than brittany less much less chatting um did you ever look down her shirt no and the situation she recounts she was on the other side of a desk from me both seated i don't even know physically how uh one could do that but no i don't recall ever looking down her uh blouse uh no do you remember ever commenting on a necklace she was wearing i don't remember that but i could very well have done that she was very nervous when she came in she did not come in often uh i don't mean to disparage her but you know if it went stephanie brittany then it was alyssa and she didn't have much exposure on the dictation and the typing but frankly she was not really proficient at it and she was very nervous when she would come in so i would try to put her at ease uh it's very capable it's very possible that i said that's a nice necklace just something to sort of make her feel more at ease and uh because she was obviously very nervous do you remember ever talking about a necklace that was the pendant of virgin mary and an italian horn is that jogging memory that if i had seen that i don't remember it but if i had seen that that would have been something that i could have talked about just to make her feel more at ease but you don't have a specific recollection of it no but that's very italian the italian horn and the virgin mary so it's i may have said the italian horn do you know what that means it was just something to have some conversation to make her feel more comfortable did you ever see miss mcgrath and miss camiso doing stretches in the office no i thought i recall do you know someone by the name of analysts i don't remember analysts i'm just familiar with her narrative so if you look at tab three that's that's on a list do you remember this do you remember her working in the executive chamber i still don't remember her do you remember someone uh you don't looking at this you don't remember her no do you remember anyone who worked as an assistant for howard glazer who came over i believe she was uh i've been told that she was the assistant to howard glaser who's karen hinton's husband who worked with me so uh since you don't remember her i assume questions about whether you hugged her or what you called her or interactions you don't remember anything i don't have no recollection about her let's go back to miss mcgrath for a minute was did you know that she was of italian heritage she told me that did you ever speak with her or to her in italian i tried but she didn't understand any italian recall anything you said to her in italian she says i said ciao bella which i may very well have do you recall you said she said that do you recall any do you recall anything that you said to her in italian no but if you were italian i may very well have said ciao bella because that's something you think an italian person might have heard before but apparently according to our story she hadn't heard it not recall anything else you said to her italian no no if they don't understand ciao bella there's not gonna be much other um you remember attending gareth rhodes wedding yes and uh uh you've read the or you've heard of the reporting about yes have you seen those pictures i saw it in the new york times okay if we can turn to tab 82 that's the new york times article and there's a picture there okay okay do you remember um uh kissing this woman nope do you remember um sort of approaching her and touching her in the back first no you remember her uh pushing your arm away because you had touched the bare part of her back no i don't recall that and i would have recalled it he would have recalled if somebody pushed my arm away yes okay um do you remember uh saying like uh while that's aggressive no you remember asking her saying to her may i kiss you i don't remember saying that but that is something that i have done recently as i told you do you remember kissing her i don't remember kissing i know so you you don't have a specific recollection of kissing her no okay um do you remember um kissing on the cheek many people that evening yes okay about how many people 50. um did you ever call gareth rhodes after this new york times article i don't think i ever spoke to gareth rhodes about this new york times article you don't remember uh calling him after this i may have called him but i don't remember ever discussing uh this woman with him okay how about generally the the wedding do you remember uh a call to him the call a call to him what about the wedding okay let's step back when's the last time you've spoken to gareth rhodes uh a few months ago okay and was it in person or by phone by phone did you call him or did he call you i don't recall who called who okay and what did you talk about uh we talked about covid tends to be the conversation that we talk about and what did you say we were just talking about the covet and the vaccines and the vaccine rollout he was on covet duty for almost from day one and he was very involved in first the testing rollout and then the vaccination rollout and when did he leave executive chamber gareth rhodes he left a while ago he had wanted to leave for he was supposed to come first for six months and then it was eight months and then it was nine months he had wanted to leave a number of times i kept pushing back the deadline he said look i'm just burnt out because of seven days a week this 24 hours a day it's just over and over and over and he said at one point you know i just i can't do it i said i'd give me until x and then he gave me until x time and then he uh left he didn't leave he just went back to dfs on this call with gareth rose you remember apologizing to him i may have apologized because it was a hellacious year and the vaccination rollout was just hellacious and he was in charge of literally setting up hundreds of sites around the state to move out the vaccines and i was pushing very very hard to get the vaccines out uh everything was to hit that 70 percent vaccination rate which was quote unquote it was the national goal and it was a critical mass where you believed you could slow covert but that meant you had to do 70 percent of 19 million vaccinations so we had national guard we had hospitals we had yankee stadium literally hundreds of impossible sites set up and that was all on him and it was 24 hours a day and every day was it was just not enough not enough not enough and he killed himself is it fair to say you put him under a lot of pressure yes well yes well i was under a lot of pressure and he was the instrumentality for getting it done with other people but uh he was in many ways a point person with larry schwartz and in the call do you remember apologizing to him for uh being particularly difficult and harsh on on a particular issue or it was always it was the vaccination rollout as far as i know that was the main issue do you remember apologizing him for to him or being particularly difficult i don't remember the specific but i could have very well said something to him like look i'm sorry i know it was a horrendous period and i know i was a pain in the neck and i know it was an impossible position and he wanted to leave he's a newlywed and his wife wanted him home and it was really governmentally it was probably the most challenging period not just for me in the state but for the country and he was fantastic how about about the wedding did you talk to him about the wedding i don't think i ever talked to him about the woman or the wedding the wedding in that call saying what happened what what happened at the wedding i don't think i ever talked to him about uh anna roush by the way this gesture of the touching of the face i do this hundreds of times young children old men transgendered people the touching of the face i do very often and on your vignette about uh moving my hand off her back was that before i said can i kiss you i'm just asking the question if you remember no i'm saying but by your facts because if anyone's facts that you can we can read the article about her allegations you for you to do that do you do you remember this incident at all no okay these are not my facts just these are the allegations we're asking you questions about okay i understand you may find some offense that we're asking these questions but that's part of what we have to do um do you remember uh going to a public event in september of 2019 no what was the event if you go to tab 16. [Applause] and this is your tell me when you're there yep okay tap 16 on september 2019 there's a do you remember going to this no what is this it's an event at yeah i know but do you know what it means uh that's what that's the information we have yeah i don't remember i still don't remember do you remember uh taking pictures at that event probably not because you don't remember i don't remember being at the event do you remember touching anyone on the butt at that event no do you remember if you can turn to tap seven [Applause] um and you see there's a event at the salmon river the second page salmon river land acquisition and fishing announcement yes do you remember going to that event no um uh have you heard of an energy company called yes yeah how do you know it's a big energy company uh do you remember um being at an event where you met anyone who worked no do you remember ever um seeing anyone who was wearing a t-shirt that said no do you remember ever running your fingers across the chest of someone who's wearing a t-shirt that's a national grid do you remember ever uh running your hand across the chest of someone and then saying or it's the effect of now i'm gonna i have to say i swatted a bee away what no that's why i have no recollection of that [Applause] um do you remember in may of last year you're getting a naval nasal swab um on live tv yes i remember the nasal swap okay if you look at tab 25 uh and this is a picture from that event yep um it's one moment and something a little difficult sorry okay and do you remember the doctor who gave you the nasal spot swab no you don't you don't remember her name no do you remember saying on that day while she approached you saying doctor you make that gown look good on tv or yeah no but if i said it on tv it would be on tv yeah okay well if you look at the transcript of the press conference which is tab 26 it's um page seven of nine seven of nineteen yeah and you see it's cap uh at 17 51 1752 you say you make that gown look good yeah you remember saying that no but it says it that i said it do you remember um preparing for this press conference with her and others prior to stepping out there no do you remember anything you said to her uh prior to that no you remember um there was at some discussion about not swabbing too high and not don't go all the way up to the brain i don't remember saying that but you know i was probably trying to make her feel comfortable and tell jokes or whatever at ease and uh do you remember her saying that she'll be gentle but accurate no do you remember making any joke about the phrase gentle and accurate no um we've we saw the pin exchange earlier about karen hinton where you were writing some things you recall that there was a washington post article uh with karen hinton alleging some things recently yes did you read that or was that communicating it was just communicated to me okay and if you look at the pin tab 95 [Applause] right at the bottom it says karen hinton is delusional or just lying a hug 20 years ago but she never mentions you see that yes so you um you were aware that one of her allegations was of a hug with you a long time yes and you uh and you say she's delusional lying uh zero blue do you remember uh giving her a hug in a hotel in los angeles 20 years no okay you don't remember it one way or the other i don't remember hugging her 20 years ago okay um are you sure that it didn't happen that you didn't hug her if it my point on how karen in peace was if it did happen the way she says it happened her entire behavior since then uh makes it virtually impossible to be a fact 20 years ago she then comes to volunteer in my campaign that's what i'm referring to the next year she comes up here volunteers her time says the most glowing things about me and then i know her for another 20 years her husband works for me she goes to work for de blasio says all sorts of things never mentions it to anybody her best friends etc but what did you understand that her allegation was that if you did you said i hugged her closely uh basically against her will and was aroused i'm just going to pull up did you understand ms hinton to be saying you made a sexual advance on her in a hotel room does that what you understood she was saying basically that i was hugging her i don't know if she said against my will but that i will hug her in a hotel room okay so if you look at tab 96 it's the article and you go to page six [Applause] yeah and she second paragraph on that page she described it as a very long too long too tight too intimate hug see that yeah and a little further down she said hidden did not explicitly describe it as harassment when asked if she viewed the encounter as harassment and did not explicitly describe it that way but that said there was a power dynamic at play you see that yeah so was it your understanding that you had described a close intimate hug that she didn't did not describe as harassment i understand that now okay did you understand that previously i didn't understand i didn't understand whether she considered it harassment or not harassment but just a close tight hug is that something that you've never done with karen hidden uh not non-consensual this was it your understanding that she said it was non-consensual hug if you could read the first page governor the very second sentence of the article she pulled away from cuomo but he pulled her back towards his body holding her before she backed away and left the room that sounds non-consensual or forcible to me so you don't recall uh any hug where she either put a fact off and come back in no but you have hugged her yes many times i've known her for 20 years since then um after the allegations of sexual harassment have come out did you have any discussions with anyone executive chamber about uh and making potential changes in the executive chamber or ways to improve the procedures or culture yeah we're talking to people about it okay who are you talking to we're talking to a number of experts about it and what are you talking about see again you don't want to get into any privileged discussions with council but you're aware that we're speaking to workplace consultants yes okay are they lawyers lawyers are speaking to them okay if you go to tab 86 [Applause] yeah and you see uh this is a email exchange but there's uh parts of this um that's drafted if you go to page three the one that at the bottom three eight seven seven and the bottom two paragraphs it says in the meantime i want to take additional action i'm going to bring a private firm to train all my staff myself included as the highest standards of appropriate workplace interaction yes is this something that you've already started yes and uh is the what's the name of the firm that you obtained uh that is being done through council are you aware of the name of the firm i'm uh there are a number of firms that are engaged uh and uh through council you're aware that there's been outreach to do this and that someone else is responsible for this within chamber okay are you uh taking the position that uh the name of the firm is privileged no i just don't i i'm not sure that he knows that so that may be the answer yeah i'm not sure do you know the names off the top of your head okay okay but your understanding is a number of firms have been with yes no no i don't know if they've been yet obtained there's been talking to a number of firms about the best way to do it okay when when when did that happen that's been happening for a period of time it also says i also want to engage a firm that will be available to any employee who wants to make a complaint but make feel uncomfortable going through formal government channels right is that something that that's underway also okay and do you know which firm has been engaged to do that uh i know they're talking about a contracting mechanism and how to expedite the contracting mechanism to do it without going through a full bid process etc and who's the they uh the executive chamber the lawyers there uh a number of people are involved who are the people who are involved senior staff and councils okay melissa derosa is she involved yes what other senior staff counsel's office and i don't know how many members of the senior staff are involved and it's your understanding that the firm has already been reached out to for that they're talking to a number of firms the contracting process is difficult because you normally have to do a notification and a bid package which can take months so we're looking for a way to streamline that but it's your understanding that everybody started talking to people where did you gain that understanding uh from i don't know if i got it from senior staff or from council but you don't know the names i don't know the names of the the uh ones they're talking to speaking of formal government channels um i'd asked you about goer and miss kamisso has anyone from goer reached out to ask you about miss mcgrath i don't believe so um i'm gonna run by uh with you some uh jokes or comments and you tell me if it sounds like something you recall saying or not remember ever joking uh to anyone who is pregnant saying and joking i'm not the father someone crossing do you um you recall a saying or joke about old bulls and young bulls have you ever said a saying about old bulls and young bulls i don't recall saying about bulls now um do you ever remember saying to anyone in the press shop or otherwise that you're looking for good one-liners and giving the example of something being like sex without the orgasm no i do remember asking the press office for good one-liners but never one that involved saying something like sex without the orgasm i don't even understand what that means no okay um do you remember ever joking uh to anyone that you helped legalize sodomy no we didn't no do you uh do you remember ever making any comments or jokes about the emmy statue that you won i've joked about winning the emmy statue but no jokes about the statue itself how about how this statue is buxom do you ever remember saying anything like that no i'm not even sure the statue is boxing but you don't remember saying anything like that no okay um have you uh commented on or joked about the size of your hands no you've never commented on the size of your hands no my brother jokes about my hands and he says my fingers i have banana fingers my fingers look like bananas it means that in a teasing but non-flattering light but i don't think anyone else ever heard him say that but you've never uh commented on your hands to your recollection no have you ever held uh held hands with um any of your staffers female staffers i'm sure i have okay in what context a wedding funeral something like that i could have in church where they have you hold hands [Applause] can you look at tab 2 of this document i have the binder [Applause] [Applause] and this i'll uh tell you is the document subpoena that we have served on you through council okay what did you do to respond to the document subpoena that you received i turned everything over to my attorneys and by everything what are you referring to everything that was possibly relevant and then they went through and uh uh picked what was responsive okay so you hand over handed over your blackberry yes okay did you hand over your phone yes iphone uh anything else do you did you have an email account i don't have any email accounts i have nothing but the blackberry in the iphone how about any other any hard copy documents i gave them whatever i had but i don't really have hard copy documents what did you have did you have handwritten notes or things like that i had some handwritten notes but really most of what i do is uh on typed by stephanie or one of the women so it's in the uh their files but you did hand over some hardcover documents yes where did you keep those where were they from they were from whatever i had okay so about how many pages of handwritten notes were there i don't recall what else did you hand over some handwritten notes uh phone and blackberry well the phone in the blackberry has almost every communication and document that i've done so other than blackberry phone and some handwritten notes anything else that he looked up and handed over well then stephanie was in possession of everything did she look up files for you she gave me uh well she got the same basic subpoena so i don't know what she gave to her attorneys versus what you give me are there any other uh documents that you're aware of that are relevant not on this phase of the investigation um i think unless my colleagues have anything that uh concludes it for us we can give you an opportunity to you know take a break and if yeah why don't we take that and so we'll just we can just figure out if we need to ask any questions and then we'll go back on the record and go there sounds good thank you okay times 641 yeah times 6 58 p.m this begins media 8 on the record good to go okay here we are we are hitting the 11th hour governor much earlier today a number of hours ago you were asked a series of questions by mr kim regarding stephanie benton and what she is authorized to sign on your behalf and i think there were questions from mr kim along the lines about whether she signs legislation or executive orders and the scope of what she's authorized to sign can you just speak uh to that specifically yes it's a it's a nuance but it's an important one stephanie can authorize the auto signature and the auto signature actually does the signature as opposed to stephanie and with respect to so with respect to legislation or an executive order or something like that she authorizes the auto pen the auto pen does the signature and that comes from a decision by you in the chamber that it be signed yes i decide to sign it but she can authorize the auto pen and the auto pen actually does a signature okay um i think that is it from our end there is one thing i want to put on the record a few minutes ago and you followed up as i would expect you would mr kim about the governor providing counsel with hard copy documents i just want to let you guys know we've provided everything responsive what the governor was referring to is exchanges he's had with his counsel over the course of the last number of weeks and all of that would be privileged and confidential okay okay yeah we have a pending request for just a certification of completion to be done so we'll talk about that off yeah that's fine do you all have anything you know so i think uh no more questions from us governor thank you for your time i would like to say it was a pleasure mr kim but i'm on the road we do have one request off the record sometimes times seven o'clock p.m this big uh maybe eight of eight today's investigation you

Channel: Forbes Breaking News

Views: 576,332

Keywords: Gov. Andrew Cuomo, New York Attorney General Letitia James, Democrats

Id: PC1cNbKZG80

Length: 530min 39sec (31839 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 29 2021