Senzo Meyiwa murder trial: 21 July 2023

[Music] is of such a nature that as time goes on it tends to be more sharper did I understand you well [Music] um I wouldn't be in a position or able to comment on that statement that is your view I cleaned this from what you said yesterday in the living after 25 years after the occurrence of this incident or so or a number of years or so after the occurrence of this incident you'd still be able to remember what actually happened is foreign so as far as I know England uh as I said that what happened it was very dramatic and my mind wouldn't just be able to let go of it oh did that also includes the identity of the people of the perpetrators of the two people treat us according to your house that day is yes that's correct thank you now in terms of that trait I would take it that you are telling this court that you will also not forget how the paper tree Tower was in position you know the firearmony question looked like um that's correct thank you and it is your amazing on the description of how he looked like that you have already told the Discord about it yes that's correct now on the basis of just this what we've spoken about would you be in a position in an event that you see the perpetrator where the firearm only that day in question when you happen to come across the street or anywhere else would you be able to identify him um eight years to nine years as I've already said that it has been eight years to nine years uh people others gain weight others get a complexion others lose that complexion others change hairstyles in a situation or an incident like that when when you meet that person again the blood the feelings the body just tells no I'm feeling a bit confused when you say reply to the feeling and the body just tells would you explain any um it's not my emotions especially of that magnitude to say that we've got emotions and uh once something of that magnitude happens and so once you encounter it again that it it just tells but I can't explain to you as to how but the body just tells I'm still in the dark but I don't want to make an issue out of this now but the question was would you be in a position to identify the first Intruder who had a firearm in his possession according to your house and that day I think that was my question um yes I would be in a position thank you now you have used a very interesting yes I mean in the interview that you had that was played yet caught yesterday you used a very interesting way do you saying the police were fishing in a in a in the same Pond they kept on fishing in the same Pond for over more than seven to eight years now seven to eight years would you then agree with me that in that seven or eight years where the police were fishing they threw in the net hoping to come out or hoping that that net will come out with the person who you identified as a first Intruder and up until the first intruderdale had a firearm and up until now their net keep on coming empty in respect of the festival I really don't understand the purpose of that question correct that the police have been investigating for 20 years in the same point he says eight years he doesn't follow they don't find what they are looking for then it's consequent it could be said it is impossible ever I mean I I don't understand the basis of the objection a lot let's pick your question then he will tell you why he objects me thank you mothers remember on the basis of what you have just said with regard to the police fishing in the same pond for almost seven years would you agree with me that after they casted their net into say in this point that you spoke about for a period of seven years the police had not been able up until now now to come out with a person who you would identify as the first person or the first perpetrator according to the house where the fire I'm in his position that the their kids have been arrested it's for the courts to you know to make their determination it's not for the witness to make that determination for okay why do you say will you agree with me what's the problem with your precious that's if it is for seven or eight years yes that the police so we're fishing in the sand same pond it means that they will never arrest the person who he was able to identify as the first aspect just listen to the logic in that submission you are actually making the statement you say will you agree with me yes he's not making that statement yes that's the problem yes yes that's the problem I am saying this my Lord that based on her testimony that up until now as I am cross-examining hey yeah and she's answering my question the police have not been able to bring to court a person that she who would say this is the person that I saw on the 26th of October 2014 who was in position of a firearm okay let's hear what's your comment manager again seven to eight years of October 2014. foreign am I talking about before speculating I thought that was your answer oh you entered it okay thanks man um it is immaterial what point were you referring to we're talking about the point that the police would go into when they keep their net with a view that bayonets will come out with a person who you would have come to court and say this is the person that I saw on that day who had a fire I'm in his position is oh okay I see that you are missing each other foreign go to a lie detector test uh that is what I was talking about or referring tool in other words suspect yet we are just Witnesses uh in other words we were seen uh as suspect yet we were witnessing uh to other areas or to other places as well to get uh the results now that they have found the results thank you ma'am me and you are on the same page I I don't see like that on the basis of what you've just said now that you requested the police to extend their scope of search they should not just limit their themselves into a particular Pond they need to go to other ponds as well indeed they did that now the gist of my question is therefore would you then agree with me that if they are endeavor upon your requests that they should do so they have still not yet brought a person that you would identify as the person who had a fire administ position that day that is simply the gist of my question we don't want to be labor the point but this precisely they issue that Discord assists with that the court has got to determine after the Prospectors of all the evidence it's not for the sweetness to to say that with respect to think the question is but the witness actually is referring to herself referring to the explanation says because the police were having a second docket which presupposed that they believe herself and others were being interrogated put through lie detectors tortured that they suspected hair also as being kids amongst others the person who entered the house with a gun Because unless the unless there is a a supposition that there was no person shot at that house but if the cross-examination as I listen to it it's not disputed that a person was shot in that house and she was in that house with a mother Kelly and others now she is saying they were also regarded as suspects so that pond in which they were fishing was according to her not the correct Pawn because she regarded herself as a witness that's our understanding he is counselors now moved a step further and he says after the police after having fished in that different Pond they haven't come up with someone that she can identify as the first suspect that is inappropriate is for this court to determine you can keep that for cross-examination because it's argumentative as you are arguing with the witnesses I I can understand man I realize that is a bit of a problem with this question let us conclude it thank you concluded by let me conclude it by saying that um I put it to you that up until this point the police in terms of their investigation let us excluded upon thee in terms of the investigation they have not yet come up with a person that you would stand up there and say I have met that person I've seen that person or I'm seeing that person who had a firearming position who had a firearm in his position that day that's all um foreign yes we are seated here that there are five of them seated there and we can see that none of them is for dreadlocks but if sorry if we were to put a dreadlocks on one of them and then the complexion that they had eight years ago who knows what may come out and right now and there were two Intruders in the house and here we see five people as to how that came about that we can live to the police and of course the evidence as well as the evidence that was found yes but finally you are unable to see any person who had a fire um or one of the Intruder who had a firearm on that day again foreign for now I only have suspicions I do not want to point out the poor person based on suspicions thank you now let us try to go back to the scene you say tumelo had a pop that's why that is a plaster of Paris that's so um yes [Music] or we had a cement yes now you say at some points he also joined in in the castle which you'll get to a few minutes later that happened in the house how did you manage to do that uh I'm unable to speak to him and I think the court can also say that I am not tomorrow as I'm seated here he's the one who will be able uh to tell us to how far he could work and how the the paint or his pain how did it enable him when when when he joined the tassel did he use his crutch or he just walked without the crutches I didn't notice but what I do remember or equal is that one of the crutches was on the floor how many questions was he using well I'm two so at the time when you face him from from the entry of Rim he was using two crutches not sure yes that's correct and at the time when he alighted from the guy killed upon arrival at your home when according to their house you also use two crutches yes that's correct do you know it what happened to the other crash I don't know but but what I do know that is the days went by or went on that he was using both of them thank you now at the time of the commotion in the house when he stood up did you use the clutches to assist you in pushing one of the perpetrators into the kitchen is foreign uh that I wasn't concentrating on dumelo is it or can it be that you having Intruders and now you are concentrating on someone whether the person is only scratches or not my focus wasn't there and that is understood man but please we also in a position that we should understand what actually happened in the house and and it is unfortunate that part of our understanding or the mystery which we could and we can only understand what happened in the house is through your testimony foreign I understand thank you and you'll alsoever note that in your evidence in Chief you also mentioned Tomatoes several times and it also came from you right here today in one of his legs do you understand um [Applause] I hear you but that doesn't mean that I just kept on focusing or studying to Melo so your final wear on this one is you do not know how he got into how he got to involved in the test whether he used the a crutch or not but all that you know is that he also was part of the people who are trying to push foreign I mean in the sitting room as you were sitting today a two strange people to get into the house yeah yes that's correct then one of them says he produces a firearm in front of you and he says money and cell phones by saying that in Zulu um then long way jumps up he pushes this person it dashes out of the house yes that's what it immediately thereafter you meaning all of you then stood up and you also pushed the person towards the kitchen nothing is I've I've tried to faint home I've tried to imagine how this pushing could have happened but up until now I'm failing so and then I said to myself I don't need to struggle about this because there's a witness who said there was a pushing and I'm going to request her which I'm doing now to explain to this chord how this pushing actually happens is [Music] yes I still pants foreign and he didn't push him on the upper part of his body uh if you do watch it I don't know you you see how they would do but the fact was describe or how they push in the rugby that is what I mean okay and then this person lost balance and moved uh to the middle of the wall of the wall as well as the bathroom and then Maxine bedrooms and then the second one is the one that was now uh at the door of the the bedroom and so when we stood up we started with the one that was at the bedroom door and we pushed both of them as to who was in front I am not certain now as you push them they resist the pushing what what just try to paint a clearer picture to the chord what was their reaction the way they just gave up when you pushed them they were resisting whatever the positions they tried to fight or to to try to resist but we were many or there were many of us fight how how do they try to fight did they try to push it back I don't want to put weight in your mouth you see that's my problem so but I I just wanted to commit from you how this pushing thing happened this is said that in all of that myself and tomorrow were at the back so I am in no position to say as to how they did that because when there's this fighting or pushing there is a lot of action that is happening I'm in no position to say that the would raise his hand the foot is hand down I cannot give that detail okay thank you man now ultimately the pushing ended up or got stopped or it stopped at the point where both perpetrators now that's according to your testimony for both people treat us or Intruders lend it with their backs at the kitchen door or on the kitchen door what's up um when you say that it stopped what do you mean no I mean the when they were being pushed they were pushed up to the kitchen door where they landed with their backs on the kitchen door um and upon Landing with their backs on the kitchen door that would mean that their faces were facing towards the greater portion of the house was there assault in the process of the pushing in a in in some manner yes there was some some assault can you tell the square about it who was hitting who Okay anyway I tried to assault and then tomorrow took the crash from me and assaulted and as to with regard to the other people I cannot say who assaulted how because I wasn't noticing or didn't take note of that thank you let me put it this way before the two perpetrators were ultimately pushed towards the door that is in other words before they could be pushed to the door before they could arrive at the door I was not in France I was right at the back so I didn't see thank you now as the perpetrators have been pushed oh what's their position where where they walking towards the door where they walking with their back towards the door what is the position s they were treating with any swearing day I didn't hear it well you're not swearing at them I don't swear when I say you I don't mean specifically you I'm in your group I'm going to use the word your group referring those occupants who were in the house before the arrival of the two people readers England thank you and upon Landing with their bags at the door The Assault on them then continue oh let me put it this way upon them lending with their backs on the kitchen door what then happened again Gucci number one while a Minaj what I do recall is the first suspect wrestling with the disease for the firearm and then myself trying to assault the second suspect together with dumelo is with regards to the others I cannot remember thank you now you have told this quote that you were pushing from the back and because some of the people who are trying to assault this Intruders were taller than you you could not successfully [Music] hit the person that or the Intruder already wanted to hit with the crash not so much yep yes and this is the reason why to Melo and took the Crush from you and assaulted or attempt or tried to assault or hit the second perpetrator there with is yes that's what it now in your quest when you Endeavor to try and assault this perpetrator with the Crush the second perpetrator with the crash did he just stand today did he try to wire off the clothes did he try to move away from the clothes what is the position okay um the assault at times they would also try to assault himself he himself would also try to assault when you say like when you try to assault what do you mean by that was he trying to assault to you the one that was in front of him how did he attempt to do that how did he try to assault him when I say that I'm in no position to give a description as to whether he had it was with his fist uh he it was trying to hit with low blows I cannot tell because there was a lot that was happening there but there was fighting thank you ma'am it's well understood you know the reason why I'm asking this it's because I think my colleague for accuse number one and two I asked you whether the second perpetrator had anything in his position and then you said you did not see anything did I capture you well there um yes she said she did not see that is true foreign see you smiling this is what Tim Thomas you see would come and tell these courts and the state is going to call him he would say that the second perpetrator had a fire I'm in his possession I mean I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry had a knife in his possession um this statement and make it mine and then uh as I said that which we are saying now I didn't see so you are saying your vision is you did not see a knife in the position of the seven perpetrator um no I didn't like this even at a time when your group was assaulting him and he was trying to uh the witness says he never saw a knife now you you are saying that because of the fact that you a little shorter and there were other people who were in front of you and and you were at the back that's your vision not so that is now you are in the back of these other people were in front of you when you were assaulting the the the the the seven intruder foreign where you then able or were you enable to then see his face when you were at the back and other people in front of you um he's tall taller than the people that were in the house so so it was very easy to see him I was me laughing positions do you remember me saying that where I was seated the original position where I was seated when someone opens the door you're unable to see as to who is coming in up until the person closes the door foreign and in the township we know when you enter someone's house so I wanted to see who is this who is coming in without knocking so I peeped through foreign [Music] was the one that was working in front and the second perpetrator with nothing in his position was behind the one in the fight is now let us get to the attire that the first perpetrator where the firearm hit how was it is is they slowly fade uh as I've already said that uh it's in a period of uh ATS uh the final details as to the color the Jersey those fake the fade away but what doesn't uh go away or what doesn't fade is the person's face what does that supposed to mean to my question [Music] foreign uh what I'm saying or what that means to your question is that whether a person was wearing a jacket uh a June but that was not important that important to me is um uh my eye was concentrating on the face the persons built whether it's a small build or usually built and as well as the hair what the person was wearing on the head but it's to the color uh what the the make no thank you and that is because memory Fades away not all of it Minor Details logo of none the second favorite how was he said always the second one I remember that was wearing a hoodie just as I remember that the first one was wearing a head as I have already explained that my concentration was on the top part now up to what point of his face due to their hood girl what is this what's a Hood or a hoodie yes what is it hoodie directions yes it's a tracksuit but the one with the uh yeah the one that accused number five is wearing something like this yes whoa this is a hoodie hoodie okay thank you sorry something like this that's correct now to this thing that appears to be a hint a head on the hoodie was it on his his head was this pushing on this comment that appears to be a head maybe this is the hoodie I don't know but this portion was it on on his head your head head okay yes that's the case that is up until the skimmishness in the kitchen was over it is portion of the government was on his head is foreign but I won't be setting about but when I ran from the kitchen to the bathroom it was still on and despite the fact that you know I'm tempted to request you to demonstrate the Discord how did he treat it you know you can also wait I'll show you the rules of code do not allow me to do it you know I also won't be able to put it on because I worked very hard about this beautiful hairstyle that I have on okay no it's fine we leave it there I I don't want to interfere with with all those morning efforts man but thank you now um you see oh you testified in your evidence in Chief that as you were in the bathroom that is before you could run to the bathroom there was a first shot that was fired in your presence right in the kitchen and when you got into the bathroom two further you had two other feather shots not sure foreign yes that's correct thank you now um the police came this is just a background of my question the police came the following morning they were able to retrieve two exhibits that we allegedly fired from a firearm okay another now as you went on some days thereafter perhaps as you went on to clean your place you know Shifting the sofa the the the things in the kitchen there you know doing sprinkling did you ever find all did you ever find another exhibit it could have been yourself or any of your family member to the police with clinically the last place I wanted to be in Google firstly I'm not the one who cleaned the house uh that was the last place I wanted to be at that house and at this point at this point I don't know as to who cleaned the house because that wasn't important to me uh I think the police found whatever it is that they found and I don't know what it is but they thought so they are the ones who will be able to explain or tell us don't be angry for this question it's just an innocent question at all so the information that you have yes um is that you you you pay no knowledge whether or not any further exhibits were found in the same okay yes I know nothing thank you ma'am uh would finally want to put The Virgins based on the statements that the state gave us in preparation of this case you know it's it's that's procedurally a code that we need to do that so we hear what your comment is towards to what they would come and tell this court do you understand um foreign I understand thank you now this is what language food amongst others come and tell this court or maybe before I I I get to that you asked yesterday whether we're in a position to describe the kind of a firearm that um the first people treat ahead and then you said you can't because you do not know the types of fire I'm not sure yes that's true thank you now in one of the statements that is a 19 so A9 can you also give me a copy so that I can also see what you did um that's a 9. yes thank you thank you thank you Mrs Brenda I know this has got nothing to do with you but in um just a holistic approach which will form part of our argument at the end of it all you would say um I think that is paragraph four it starts on paragraph four hey that's paragraph four [Music] um it's a it's a it's a it's an unusual handwriting though but it said suddenly at about 20 hours on 24 10 2014 to a non-made entered the house two unknown boys came in to their house there is it yes suddenly eight plus minus 20 hours on 26 October 2014 two unknown boys came in the house episode and I hear a voice saying take out phones and money I then approached one of these boys I grabbed him and pushed him he was armed with a revolver a 3.8 special 3.8 special I then ran out to look for help thank you that's the question that I wanted to bring to your attention as we have indicated you don't know nothing about firearms yes that's correct thank you now he also made a further statement now in this statement that we are preparing here I think that is where your interest is going to be um we we Mr sibande was assisting with the technical operation of the system we're still trying to session search this statement [Music] foreign A113 so the state is trying to assist us with the retrieval of a relevant A113 oh I can read it okay no thank you thank you now on paragraph five of this A113 and this is what he says or this is what longer will come and take this cut he will come and tell this court that um just as scary was about to tell the joke I noticed two black guys yes one tall light in complexion um maybe just before you comment on this and let us go back to a description of the perpetrators in the house they introduce according to your house let us start with the first perpetrator who had a firearm what was the description of him um facial Contours when I described to the first one I said that he had dreadlocks that reached almost reached his neck between the neck as well as the shoulders he had a big approaching eyes as well as a facial Contours he was not he wasn't tall he was also not very short the head on yes those are the things that I noticed what was this color in terms of your evidence in Chief what did you say his color was to describe I said it was darkish thank you but this is what longer will then continue to say that he noticed that the two black guys one was tall light in complexion tall light in complexion um now before we get today you've just given a description of the person that was in possession of the firearm and what was your description of the other perpetrator the one who had nothing but you did not see anything in his position first I said is tall small inbuilt uh he had a mustache that goes right around his mouth right and that he was in attack and he was also not a very light thank you those were your observations now longer I would come and tell these courts that the tall guy according to the house that is now according to his statement here was light in complexion and you're saying he was stuck in complexion not so um fun firstly we don't see things the same meaning next to her in front of her that if I look at it I would say that it is a light blue you would come and say that it is green that is how you feel or you see so what you're saying is longer might have made a mistake in saying she says their observation yeah she says she's trying to be expected to observe the things you're coaching for her she has her own interpretation and observation which he has told the court that's why he says you leave look at that bottle and you say she says I say it's life green somebody says it's blue someone will come and say it's turquoise so somebody says his turquoise that's what he says turquoise color I'm hearing that team for the first time as it is but thank you that will be what logo would come and tell you Scott but further on he made another statement but let me just read it thank you now unfortunately this statement is not numbered um but there's a paragraph that I'm going to read out today I don't know it's not numbered but let me just read out I think it will be eloquently interpreted um he says in his latest statement um I noticed two guys getting inside the house the one who came just who came first was shot dark having dreadlocks with cheekbones and he was wearing a jacket that was between khaki or light brown in bracket Beach light brown beige he says he cannot remember his other clothing and he was followed by or immediately a tall one followed foreign foreign at different times also yeah thank you for that explanation man but then finally from me one class of accuse number three the state has also provided us with the statement that it touched its skills unfortunately the name of the witness is not in the list of state witnesses there but I realized that in the list of stage Witnesses at paragraph one one three the stage says the name of certain Witnesses have been withheld for security reasons I presume this is the case with this weakness um now this witness basically would come and tell this court because the state is going to call him will come and tell this court that on the date of The Happening of this incident he got a call from your sister Kelly uh um unfortunately as she tried to explain what was happening there was a conversation breakdown when they tried to call her back they couldn't reach hey hey Google subsequent today to they then phone tumelo madala but foreign and this happened as essential who was praying to intervene or separate a fight that was happening between yourself and language that is the information that is contained in the statement do you have any comments I mean for me to have invited him to come to my home that explains that myself and him we were things were good between the two of us yes so that which is being said now I know nothing about thank you man that will be all from me one part of accused number three let me approach accuse number three this is that will be all my Lord thank you thank you examination I didn't ask the re-examination in respect of accused one and two because we thought we were going to do all that no no no no you can do it now because otherwise they're five if you want to that means this Witness you can re-examine him five times in other words because there are five cancers here yes yes okay but if you choose to examine him at the end of the fifth Council have been finished fine so yes we will prefer that yes okay fine no problem thanks what's your time there is 25 to 12. it must be an interesting case nobody wanted to go out for a comfort break please so let's hear you say we are from number four yes my requests uh short adjustment my daughter just have to approach Mr mapusa how short is the shortest statement 15 minutes okay 15 minutes and an unknown witness whose name Council said was withheld for security reasons says that on the day of the incident he got a call from Kelly khumalo and they handed the phone to dumelo Malala who informed the witness that senzo mayor has been hit by a bullet and this happened as Mr senzo mayowa was trying to separate a fight between the witness and and long way yeah but if if Council was referring to A6 A6 is as follows as I said this is now the statement of Mr Edward slope unless if Council referred to a different statement but the statement is as follows this Mrs Lopez says he went back inside the car called to Melo madala on the night of 26 October 2014 he wanted to get the truth of what exactly happened to Miller told him that there was a fight um the paragraphs are not numbered but it's one to the third page this third page of the statement second paragraph on page three I wanted to get the truth of what exactly happened to Miller told me that there was a fight in Kelly khumalo's house zandi was fighting with the then boyfriend was trying to separate the two zandi and her boyfriend a feather asked to Melo who was Andy timelo told me zandi was Kelly's sister so all we are saying is that there's no if if cancer was referring to the statement there's no portion where the witness states that um as as it was put to the witness that has been hit by a bullet and this happened as senzo Mayo was trying to separate the fight between the witness and long so we object to that question if if the question was based on that statement we submitted it ought to be withdrawn a lot foreign listen music I was not reading from statement I was paraphrasing from the statement and in any event that Wilderness will come and testify to the effect of what I've just put to this witness here but Mr bellary says that is incorrect there's no statement which alludes to that is the gist of the complaint or the objection now the question is where did you get that version remember as I'm saying I was kind of crazy no you don't have to paraphrase read it because if you got it from a statement yes then you read the statement but you paraphrase it anything can happen Jesus Christ of Jerusalem Jesus Christ of Nazareth not the same thing read it because maybe you're right I I don't I don't see the statements I don't have them because your colleague who says that quotation is misplaced and you must withdraw it that's what it is of dealing with this statement my Lord you yeah the court is enjoined to deal with that aspect in terms of the law you have a way fine yes where this court has to deal with the objection as stated by Mr balui and that's that quotation is misplaced it's not there as it is the court my Lord and that you must withdraw that misplaced quotation as it is the court my life are you doing it that is exactly where I'm getting through but nonetheless this witness is going to be called to come testify but what I suggested to this witness here for now maybe put in appearance maybe withdrawn from the record okay fine as it is yes it was canceled for the course I thought I'd requested the state to provide the courts with the copy of the speaker of the thank you I had requested the state to provide the court with the copy of the cell phone records okay fine yes there is an affidavit which was drafted by Canon stain thank you okay exhibit oh exhibit oh right I have it I've also requested that the content upgrades are the quality interpreter have been provided Mr China has been provided with the copies okay yes thank you so Mr Jonas you have been provided we will put it up on the oh in the screen okay fine okay the witness is indicating that there's a noise outside your country where is can you take care of the noise outside okay yes sir ma'am you told this court in your evidence in Chief that the relationship between these the disease and your sister Kelly Commando started During the period 2012 2013. you confirm that uh 2012 2015. yes that's correct during that period that is the period 2012 2013 how was their relationship that is the relationship between the disease and your sister um as in all the relationships what I know is that they are ups and downs but what I can say but what I know is that they were in love and they were happy during that period that relationship was still the Roman Juliet relationship that you had referred to in the interview relationships and Juliet can you repeat the question I didn't hear properly during that period in 2012 2013 period when they were in a relationship where they still in a relationship that you refer to as the Roma and Juliet's relationship in the interview that you had with the NCAA news 12 2013 and because another relationships my relationships as I've already mentioned that in the relationships at times it's good and at times it's bad but what I do know is that it was good and they were in love During the period 2013 the year 2013. is it correct that you are using the cell phone model a Nokia N8 the witness yes yes that's correct the cell phone number of that cell phone you confirm that it was zero seven four 676 -669 .074-676 6669 yes that's correct do you confirm that the cell phone number of your sister Kelly khumalo was zero eight two seven zero four four three five eight seven zero four seasons these metals are not out there in the open is that your number that appears there okay okay they're still using the same numbers Maybe yes I'm being channeled I'm being channeled so I think it's better that I established from the witness first the numbers then I go to the affidavit okay yes so before we interrupted what was your response okay sorry you confirm that the number for sister was zero eight two seven zero four four three five eight four three five eight the numbers I can't remember Kelly's number well member is an affidavit it is going to be themed it is compiled by Kendall numbers are staying from the Southern Police Services in the service of the state attached to the National court case Investigation Unit based in Pretoria head office as an analyst an investigation officer is going to be themed for your benefits but of Interest [Applause] to me for purposes of this cross-exclamation is on page page six um [Music] I can't hear some of the things you say okay but The Interpreter is going to tell me that before The Interpreter tells her whatever okay thank you thank you yes now I think that I'm in possession of the affidavit by kennel stain it is going to be beamed for your benefits what is of interest to me for purposes of this course examination is on page six of the affidavit for purposes of this cross-examination I'm going to refer you to sms's maybe I should start here it says just at the top of the page SMS is received by zandi Nokia N8 Open Bracket RM ifn 596 close do you have a spare copy to to give to the witness yes I have requested the states might not to provide the extra courts yes hello we had a two square copies but we we can't find we will provide it to the witness no no she must extemporaneously see the yes the quoted SMS is better that way okay yeah maybe we if we can just okay use you use the code We're Not Gonna can I learn the witness mine yeah okay thanks page six yes on Page Six sent by Kelly Commando zero eight two two seven zero four four three five eight one yes I see that yes you see where I am ma'am I'm trying to say to look where it says SMS received by zandic woman that is yes I see it so I'll go through each or the content of each SMS and invite you to respond when necessary it's says or the content says tell from zero sorry from two seven eight two seven zero four four three five eight the text sends us mom is talking to every radio station in Durban telling how it will be my fault if she dies of heart attack question mark can you believe it question mark this woman question mark it was sent time 2013 2013 and 10 11. at 9 43 59 A.M the states has red storage device type incoming folder inbox is [Music] foreign incoming inbox can you please tell the squad what was happening when candy woman or send you that SMS um uh although I can't remember well but what I do know is that sisters do talk when something is bothering the other she will tell the other did you respond to this SMS I can't remember well okay let us move on to the next one the text I regret everything I wish I didn't allow sense or into my life look at all the mess it has gotten us into it's all his lies now affecting all of us again foreign foreign let me rephrase the question what mess was Kelly referring to um according to how I saw it uh senzo wasn't honest at times he would be with Mandisa times it would be fairly when he's with Kelly uh he would say this when he is with Mandisa he would say this I think that is what she was referring to I'm not going to go through the whole sms's but let us turn to page 10 of the office thank you a hundred the one in the making of the page I'm emotionally trained I sometimes feel that sense of brought the dark cloud in my life and I can almost hate myself for not succeeding in getting rid of him via sms's and the SMS would not go I feel that God is deliberately sabotaging me by keeping this man in my life Miami um foreign what was happening there is [Music] to when and how certain things were happening but it was a back and forth between the three of them and Kelly loved senzo and senzo laughed Kevin according to how or what I saw it [Music] and it wasn't sitting well with Kenny that senzo was wasn't in a position to choose or that he was he didn't have enough honesty from the reading from the reading of the content of this SMS clearly clearly suggests that she did not love him anymore how can you say that okay I would rather there's a good placement we don't want to prescribe to malignant friend how to conduct this course examination that if the dates can also be put in record so that this sms's are contextualized okay yeah but if he's putting at least the pages on record and he says this one for instance is in the middle of the page okay but you know this is the end of the 31st of December 2013. oh okay yeah fine oh yes yes it was sent on the 31st of December 2013 at 11 24 31 a.m right yes 21 about December or 2013 24 minutes number 11 it's in it would suggest from the content that relationship was Sour um [Music] as I've already mentioned that there were good days and bad days like in any other relationship in the world hmm let us now turn to page 11. in last SMS it was sent on 2013 1231 that is December 2031 at 11 41 minutes 16 seconds am it reads as follows all I can do is hope and pray that each day I'm getting closer to my day of being free from him 31 December 2013 1141 Scotty number seconds I was 16. SMS according to my knowledge and what I could what I know is that when my sister loves someone loves that person she would love loudly and with everything that she has a footage and the winner in which sense was so dishonest she would tell me or should go as far as telling me that my heart is now so broken but I just feel that I can just let go but at the same time game turned but at the same time I love him what did you understand by this last part of the SMS which reads being free from him no matter what we understand we understand that guy okay uh to the list or to let go of the love or she had for him will be to end in the relationship in a sense open inside a relationships that I wouldn't be able to explain [Music] May the God pray with me my Lord I'm just going to a certain portion now let us now go to page 84 of the affidavit exhibit oh [Applause] [Applause] do you confirm that number was zero six zero eight zero four zero four three six [Music] zero eight zero four zero four three six uh also there I don't have any certainty you get to lose the numbers after your memory especially uh if the number is not uh specifically stored and also if you are no longer uh in good terms with that person and you are no longer in a love relationship okay okay with me [Music] kennels then also downloaded the SMS is between your number the number that you confirmed and the number which belonged to Long retwana that is the zero six zero eight zero four zero four three six number says zero eight zero four oh four thirty six there's a separate Affidavit of kennel study where he does the the downloads of the sms's between the witness and long and Twilight on us with the leave of the court that the first office of Canada exhibit all one yes there is another Africa with my daughters I've alluded too okay may I request that we believe of the courts that affidavit be handed in and be marked exhibit all two of the record okay foreign [Applause] yes maybe dimmed from they just turned to page three of the affidavit that is exhibit all two of your records when the communities [Music] with maths o one the SMS is between the witness and long way it's an affidavit by staying dated 18 July 2023 I'm gonna just get an indication of all two weeks after it's been afraid yes thank you I'm referring to the same affidavit that was provided to us by the state the one with SMS is between long and twana and the witness my colleague the other one is thicker than the other so it will be easy for you to understand where I am looks like there's a confusion yeah what you're referring to which page on the second one yes I'm referring to page three of the Africa H3 is Page Three okay yes the the affidavit rates as follows the investigation officer requested the following bullet point for sms's between zandile kumado and along with cell phone downloads download a cell phone yes but before I go to the office of it exhibit 02 just a few questions to you right and can you tell This chords before you met in the afternoon of the 26th of October 2014 when last said you met him um the previous day where had you met him down at Kevin's house in malberton on this day that is a Sunday the 26th of October 2014. did you communicate with him that is long Italian language yes I communicated with him on that day but at times because I was busy I would not answer the phone because I was working I would maybe be on stage or didn't hear the phone how did you communicate with him was it over the phone or through sms's that you will send to him vice versa him sending sms's to you SMS [Music] yeah foreign [Music] I'm referring to Sunday the 26th of October 2014. I'm specific now on that day before you arrived 26th uh October 2014. both you also told this card in your evidence in Chief that he arrived in the afternoon of the 26th of October 2014. it could have been between 1800 hours and 1800 hours 30. six [Music] in Services [Music] uh also over there I I did say that I it was just an estimate on my part because I looked at the Sun and I also looked at the time at which I went out to go and fetch him outside was the sun already said or it was about to uh it was about two because we were able to see each other without the street lights being on so with the assistance of the Sun you were able to estimate that it could have been between 1800 hours and 1800 hours 30. you confirmed that six no half past six yes that's correct was it an arrangement that he was going to come at your place or it was a coincidence for him to be there did you make arrangements did you invite him over did he tell you that he was going to come what was the position s [Music] [Music] in the morning it wasn't arranged or it wasn't a plan but as I was now there and we were communicating so I told him that we are at home it's myself it's Kelly senzo senzo's friend my mother we are about to have a lunch so you can also come so it's something that we then arranged at that time laughs can you also tell the court just remind me at what time did the touring food has arrive again [Music] around eight I don't know whether it's before eight or after eight but around there do you not say that it was or it could have been between 1900 I was 30 to 20 hundred hours when the true Intruders arrived foreign no statements even my statement uh indicates says or indicates that 20 hundred when when long sorry what was it the first time for him to visit you at your home foreign stole him and brought him home when my mother wasn't there when you arrive on on that day was was he alone on the 26th oh Day 26 um yes he was alone so if we wanted to safely estimate let us say arrives at about 1800 hours in the afternoon of the 26th of October 2014. and the robbers or The Intruders arrive around say 20 hundred hours so it means he had spent two hours at your place before The Intruders arrived foreign [Music] Ty with regards to the time but my calculations mem is going along your estimation it's not something from me something that you you're totally caught so I'm basing my estimation up on what you told the cards as you say that you are the one who's doing the calculations I didn't calculate you can also calculate mentioned that I hate myths so I'm telling you that you must have spent about two hours more or just two hours before The Intruders arrived I'm putting it to you I've calculated for you foreign that's what you say I'm not saying time is telling us the calculation of time this issue has been exhausted the witnesses said repeatedly it's just an estimate if perhaps Council can cancel two hours two and a half hours according to your assumption it's okay he says she didn't calculate the time you are suggesting that The Intruders could have come between two hours to 2 30. the time spent by long and my dad's body and shoulders came in between he says before 20 100 hours or after after that yeah she estimates that so I'm saying my calculation is based on 1800 hours when normal arrive and the time when The Intruders arrived it could have been more or less two hours that long way a time that long I spent so it's fine you know let us not labor on this uh let us now go to page 46 of exhibits all true that is on the on the last on the last column the bottom so this is an SMS that you receive from the number that you don't download the number that I've referred to to your number it was on the 26th of October 2014 at 400 hours 57 minutes 36 seconds pm the SMS reads as follows I'm outside October 2014 is 36 seconds foreign of my question to you is according to this SMS as you end at all Discord that you will interact via phones or sms's the SMS that you receive on your number from that of language it was on the 26th of October 2014 at 400 hours 57 minutes 36 seconds telling you that it was outside apparently yeah which I'm picking up the same point yes we now move into a very technical field it's only communal stain who can explain the times you know without testifying from the bodies they determine the time they ate at two hours to the time that's shown here sorry sorry I'm sorry to disturb you yeah are you referring to page 46 page 46 minutes oh 202 yes and you're referring to the time that's what it's 457 457 yes 457 and 36 seconds I think my lot in the court was addressing me I now yeah okay understand but what is the date according to this updated it's the the 20 the 26 unfortunately is six is not visible there but is the 26 sorry I guess I don't know especially cancer must show with his pen which which time he's referring to this one yes I don't seem to find that last block here 46 this very last block yeah thank you if one looks sorry thanks okay yeah if one looks on page 44 of the same exhibit no no the objection that I'm racing yeah I'm just taking the chord on page 44. the page 44 right yes there's an asterisk there it says download summary and it says remember plus two hours so in other ways you know they're saying You must add two hours to the time that is being shown here as I'm saying a lot we're moving into a very technical field and it's only Colonial stain who can come and explain this mode naturally yes we should not bind gives you the keys yes that's what you should do it are you saying then only matchings by Council here yes one should actually add two at two hours yes meaning that the six hours and four minutes and 57 with three six seconds no the 4 457 yeah if one adds two hours right will then be 6.57 we agreed on that concert if we add two hours thank you yeah what's your thoughts because he says in the state says from this estimated time he must Edge 2 hours and I don't understand by the ending of two hours just explain to your current your colleagues there's a technical way in which the um yeah the sms's and the terms reflected are interpreted and and he'll come and testify him a lot that you as is mentioned on page 44 that yeah I actually have to add two hours okay fine you can continue are you going to call Tender States okay fine [Applause] but why not should I repeat the question yeah yeah you can repeat it so just to sum up the the entry there says on the 20 26th let me just read it member team 2014 stroke 10 stroke 26 0-4 57 36 pm you receive an SMS from nowhere to other telling you that it was outside you understand October 2014 or 457 number seconds out 36 which was yes I received the SMS where he said that he was outside but what I want you to be clued up about is that it says that when you receive that SMS it was at four hours 57 minutes 36 seconds pm are we really going to again believe at this point um okay let the weakness comment on this cannot stay uh what I can confirm is that yes I received the SMS but what I cannot be certain about is what the time was the example that the sun was about to set but it hadn't said yet and we're still able to see each other okay I I put it to you that the time that he arrived is sorry the time that he send you an SMS is the time that is reflected there [Music] is the issue that only Colonel stain can dissolve the witness doesn't have to respond to that yeah the weakness has already explained cancel that they could see each other but she knows that it was towards sunset but what are you getting it with this because I thought there's no dispute about the fact that long way is it infect arrived there she says she invited him for supper or lunch whatever yes he came there yes I'll leave it for arguments later thank you so you are trying to establish what the time that he had spent before the robots arrived yeah put it to her and then staying can come and tell us yes at that time who is expertise yes yes taking into account what Stan is saying in this affidavit I put it to you that long I had spent about three hours before the two Intruders arrive I'm taking I'm basing that on the fact that you yourself told this court that we arrive the intro has arrived before after 2800 hours in the evening of the 26th of October 2014. that submission will be leading to the misleading to the witness and we uh of the view that is an unfair question okay okay what time did Loma spend with your family on the 26th of October before they intrude us arrived or got into the house foreign but what I do know is that they Intruders arrived around 8 to past eight okay yes cancer yes can you describe normal for us I don't know him I was his height yeah I described Mr twada costumes what I can say is that he's taller than me uh I can say it is got an average height what is your height I've never measured myself I was his body build um find sorry it means that it doesn't have effect on his body he's got some little muscles so we'll say it's medium build ings down something like that what is this complexion a complexion yeah in other words in other words his new attack no uh light did he wear heads at the time that you renew him he likes tips nothing else nothing else but hips and most of the time and that his cap would be attend backpacks but facing backwards did he wear a hairstyle wearing a hairstyle or a knife no he's got the bald head shave head uh uh he would cut on the sides but his uh her head is it is good just got about it you remember what he was wearing on that day the 26th of October 2014. the language no I can't remember because it wasn't important at the time that you had known him did he at some point had red dogs foreign can you describe his face it's got facial hairs sometimes sometimes it would shave them depending on how he would feel at that time it's about dimples and this also got uh eyelashes that tend to be uh a lot or more and they are long how about his eyes are a little bit pulled they would look like a China's eyes but not much did he had a bed all right now you get injured um as I've already mentioned that yes the facial hairs and he would shave them depending on how he feels or he would feel at the time but before you can shave them what they call which means chin and the upper dip when they go around [Music] is it correct that or before that will now move to another aspect of my cross examination is it correct that you made three statements some statements to the police about this incidents foreign statements by yourself um the first one is stated the 27th of October 2014 at 1400 hours is only 27 the October 2014 uh it's Katie but two the second one is dated the 6th of November 2014 at 1300 hours November um 2014 is cutting one and the third and last one is data 2018 0 to 10 at 20 hundred hours 18 minutes 2018 zero two ten at 20 hundred hours 18 minutes [Music] 2018 that's possible but I can only remember two the ones that you remember when were they made this remember when were they made oh sorry to tell you that she remembers too she doesn't deny that she could have made a third one yes can you already finished with the dates yes no thank you thank you I'll go through the first statement the one which was made on the 27th of October 2014. at 1400 hours it should have been the following day of the incident s October 2014. my Lord sorry I see it's uh 1300 hours I think it's convenient that you take a long achievement okay until what foreign [Music] that is over them on the basis that you know sense of me you are uh had been frustrating her by what we can deduce from these sms's that were read inside these are sms's in Zynga that investigators had downloaded these are sms's that had been sent by Kelly kumalo to her sister uh kumaro where she also says like she feels like God is sabotaging her uh you know in this relationship that she has with the essence and you could clearly uh you know from what was read inside Court deduce that you know there's been a frustration that sends on me I could not choose between herself and may you as a estranged wife uh Mandisa and in that those sms's basically give you know uh What uh is believed or what the defense wants to believe is account of a relationship that had gone sour between these two individuals when Sanji Kumar was asked by the defense what some of these sms's meant at the time that they were sent what she often Drew inference to was to suggest that all relationships have their ups and downs but as far as she was concerned sensor mayuwa and Kelly khumalo were in love but you know in other cross-examination as well key to what she was cross-examined on was that you'd recall that Sanji kumalo in giving her descriptions of the accused that had come into or The Intruders that had come into the house at the time that senzo mayor was killed she made reference to one of them being a dark in complexion but the defense says that a long way Twila who was then a zandi kumaro's boyfriend will come and testify in this court that uh you know one of The Intruders was actually light in complexion let's take a listen this is right longer will then continue to say but he noticed that the two black guys one was tall light in complexion tall light in complexion again now before we get today you've just given a description of the person that was in possession of the firearm and what was your description of the other perpetrator the one who had nothing but you did not see anything in his position small inbuilt right around his mouth right and that he wasn't attacked and he was also not a very light thank you those were your observations now longer I would come and tell these courts that the tall guy according to the house that is now according to his statement here was light in complexion and you're saying he was stuck in complexion not sure um fun firstly we don't see it takes the same actually the witness is next to her in front of her that if I look at it I would say that it is a light blue you would come and say that it is green that is how you feel or you see it so what you're saying is longer might have made a mistake in saying she says their observation yeah she says she's kind of is expected to observe the things you're quoting for her she has her own interpretation and observation which he has told the court that's right he says you leave look at that bottle and you say he says I say it's life green somebody says it's blue someone will come and say it's turquoise so somebody says his turquoise what he says turquoise color I'm hearing that temp for the first time a lot but thank you that will be what logo would come and tell this quote but feather on he made another statement let me just read it all right foreign statement is not numbered um but there's a paragraph that I'm going to read out today I don't know but let me just read out I think it will be eloquently interpreted and he says in this latest statement um I noticed two guys getting inside the house the one who came just who came first was shot dark having dreadlocks with cheekbones and he was wearing a jacket that was between khaki or light brown in bracket Beach light brown Beach he says he cannot remember his other clothing and he was followed by oh immediately a tall one followed foreign foreign also a crucial point that came across is that the defense also believes that they might have been some altercation that took place inside the house before senzo mayor was a shorter what the defense is is that there's a witness who will come and testify that it was the dumelo Masala who had told that witness that uh you know a sense of Mayor had been shot this was after there was an altercation between uh zandi akumalo as well as a then boyfriend along with Twyla this is something that zandi kumalo disputes let's take a listen for this sweetness basically would come and tell this court because the state is going to call him will come and tell this court that on the date of The Happening of this incident he got a call from your sister Kelly uh um unfortunately as she tried to explain what was happening there was a conversation breakdown when he tried to call her back they couldn't reach hey hey Google subsequent today to they then phone tumelo madala foreign Ty [Music] who would not disclose that Central has been hit by a bullet Trump and this happened as essential who was praying to intervene or separate a fight that was happening between yourself and language that is information that is contained in the statement if you have any comments firstly long way and myself were not fighting no longer in a very good space we're very happy myself and wrong but we're in a very good space for me to have invited him to come to my home that experience that myself and him we were things were put between the two of us yes so that which is being said now I know nothing about watching single we're expecting at two o'clock when we return for lunch for sms's that were downloaded between Longwood Twilight as well as the current witness understand zandi kumalo to be read out and quote we understand that the defense will focus on sms's that were sent on the date of the actual incident which was the 26th of October back in a 2014 back to you in studio sabc news a senior reporter chrysala Lewis really giving us insight into what took place in that case thanks so much for that crusolda and that's where we leave it for now you're yes yes where's the witness still on the old flame yes understatement okay [Applause] start with the first statement the one that you made on the 27th of October 2014 at 1400 hours the October 2014 is 13. there is okay it is hey number 13. my daughter has requested my colleague for the state to make copies available yeah okay and that there are three statements exhibits key ones okay yes sir the statement was obtained by detective Sergeant spawned on case foreign statement on that day member on the 27th of October 2014 how did you become aware that we're supposed to go to the police station statement s uh the police that came to my home or to my house has informed us that for now we can see that you are Disturbed so what was the first you are the following the day to come and make or give statements in which language was the statement obtained people leave me a statement in English as I'm looking here it's English I think is but when I speak I I mix I think you even saw on the video that I would speak English here and speak this is on completion of the statement is it correct that you signed the statement um uh interesting uh the law offices yes I signed is it correct that the signature that is appearing at the bottom of each page of exhibit P1 is your signal to page is yes it is my signature on completion of the statement was it right back to you um I can't remember well you had to sign the bottom of each page do you know I don't have any certainty was it not explained to you uh what I just believe in or what I just believe is that maybe it's Traditions [Music] just as it happens when you go to the bank or banks that you whether you want the card or whatever it is that you go for you will be told here's a document initial assigned here remember the significance of your signing is to the fact that you understand the contents of the statement you have no objection in taking the prescribed all then they prescribe all this binding in your conscience um I hear you yes but the defense is going to request that the witness that is detective Sergeant spawn Adam kills at the call this is since you are saying that you cannot remember if it was read back to you in [Music] I would be happy that to be good oh my God I intend to go to the next step and because I intend to use them interchangeable okay the next statement is the one that you made on the 6th of November 2014 or 1300 hours cut it's his a59 foreign [Applause] [Music] exhibit P2 as obtained on the 6th of November 2014 at 1300 hours it was obtained by detective Sergeant boy Steve tagone at 231 Francis spot Street in Pretoria November 2014 Rowan is detective search and boy Steve a two three one fancy spot Street Cornell ma'am I see that the set statement exhibit P2 is documented in English in which language were you using a sport now is I've already explained that I mix when I speak on completion of the statement was it read back to you um already asked me previously and I told you that I can only remember two statements the first one being the one of the 27th of October 2014 and the second one being that of February 2018. this one I cannot recall is the signature that is appearing at the bottom of each page of exhibit into your signature yes the signature is indeed mine so we can now re remember that indeed there was a statement that you made on the 6th of November 2014. [Music] I did say that I cannot recall corner it happened but I cannot be called lastly we will go then to the one you said you made on the in the year 2018 sorry it was made on the year 2018 0210 at 20 hundred hours 18 minutes 2018 and game 18 minutes past eight episode okay what's up it was obtained by Lieutenant Canon MJC Tony oh Lieutenant Kenner MJ sitolege um statement at first loras in in which language was this statement that is exhibit P3 obtained again [Music] when the question is being asked I would speak English I would speak in Zulu whenever I say fit was it right back to you I think I remember a bit yes is the signature that is appearing at the bottom of each page of exhibit P3 or signature is yes it is my signature I would now move on for the exercise of asking you some questions I'll start with exhibit P1 . all comments my questioning on paragraph two of exhibit P1 it reads its photos and I quotes on 2014 1026 at about that's minus 1600 hours 30. left Soweto from Togo's place at Street Spring spread to change his clothes 26th of October 2014 is katiga plus minus 16 30 or half past four Mina usan is you remember ma'am that's when the the legal representative for accuse number one and to ask you a question whether you know why you have to go to um towards place you said you don't know what was the reason you saw him coming back and he has changed his notes do you recall that is yes I remember that is what you responded when you were asked by illegal representative for accuse number one in line with what is contained in this paragraph foreign [Music] house but when I saw him coming back I saw that he had changed his clothes so even if I was then writing my statement I would then say that he had gone to to change his clothes because when he came back I saw him having changed his clothes let us move on to paragraph six of exhibit P1 it raises photos and encodes while we were watching soccer senzo and KD walk to spare the shop to buy Med lemon and soap after two minutes they came back close quotation is you understand that yeah I follow you my understanding them was that when Kelly and sensody disease left to the Tuck Shop was at the time when you had also went out to Omit young at father Minaj yes that's for it what is contained in that paragraph that is paragraph six is it in line with your evidence [Music] according to me it is in line I tend to disagree but I'll leave that for arguments I would go to paragraph seven it raises photos in the account as you were watching soccer two Menlo went out foreign they stood outside and chatted those quotations [Music] uh I just want to say this that when you convey something to somebody the person would then or a person then summarizes and not go into detail but now because I have the opportunity I'm here in court I then went into detail I put it to you remember that your evidence in Chief is not installed is in start contrast with what is contained in that paragraph paragraph server want me to remind you again um I disagree in what respect what I saw is that which I came to convey here in court and what I said is in line with that which is written here no mama details although the details is not much Clear uh but that is why I am here in court to explain I took one of the sorry one of tomatoes crashes and I hit the second suspect close quotation is bomb with um before you respond ma'am I'll read that paragraph in conjunction with paragraph 11 of exhibit P2 P2 yes paragraph 11 of exhibit P2 reads as follows I was standing next to Tomato at that moment and I grabbed his walking stick and hit the suspect on the head last quotation uh um ha you remember meme that you you told this court in your evidence in shape that you could not hit one of The Intruders because you are short and there were persons who were in between you and the intruder because um I said that yes but there is if I were to emphasize here there's one word that is missing it is the word try yes I hit but I couldn't reach and the value I was aiming for the head and indeed I was aiming foreign but it is not saying that on paragraph learning specific you hit that person on the head I'll leave that for argument later let us go to paragraph 16 of exhibit P1 so it reads as photos during that moment the fire the first gun shot went out and hit the kitchen door and the other shot went out and hit the floor I then ran to the bathroom and two metal went to my mother's bedroom close quotations foreign there's one shot which was fired in your cousins the one that hit the floor and two shots were fired whilst were hiding in the bedroom sorry in the bedroom you confirmed that is I remember that but that is not what photographs 16 of exhibit P1 is saying one shot in your presence is fired through the door sorry not through the door through the direction of the door is statement in government observation missing bull I think when I made this statement was then I was now including together with the observation on my way back or when I was coming back when we were coming back from hospital no that is not correct cancel just tell me are you disputing that if a gun was fired because look this case if I understand their cross-examination there's no dispute so far which has been put to this Fitness that this incident never happened yes meaning they the entrance or in of the two so-called Intruders and that's the way shots fired and that there was a fight that one shot was fired in the kitchen and two were fired in the bedroom how does it materially affect the essence of this Witnesses there's better evidence my God but how does it materially affect it in the totality of of the the evidence that is going to be presented no we are not yet there she says she was mixing Zulu and English have you heard of a case called stage this is I've had I've read I've heard of that case yes please have that in mind when you're cross-examining this with this because as I'm listening to the evidences it unfolds it appears there's no dispute about the fact that there were two Intruders maybe there could be a dispute about the identity of The Intruders but that there were two Intruders who got in and short or a short Source required and there was fighting I mean it's common cause is that not so it is so but um the difficulty my Lord that I'm having I do understanding it says that two shots are fired it's not interested that shorts were fired but where I'm having a challenge Two Shots according to the statement are fired in their presence this service is evidence in Chief oh sorry evidence in Chief that one inspired in their presence two are fired in the bathroom so there is you know you know the credibility issue there let's see and she also said she thought there were three shots and I'm listening carefully and she said two of the latter two shots were not as loud as the first one and we're going to argue about that you know just argue about that also because since the first shot was loud and the two subsequent Insurance when she was crouching in the bathroom we are not that loud it's another way around one no it's not too loud the other one was not the other and then the two first ones so which was the loudest the two the two first shots the two first shots yes let me ask you a council here the first shot in the kitchen was louder and the subsequent was also allowed about the third one was the one that was yeah but what I'm trying to get at why would you say things about the loudness of the shots we should also interrogate that why does she say the first one was loud and the second one was loudest that's what I'm getting it I'm I'm fading to understand sorry not understand tools to answer that one but we can you know I can converse it from the witness okay fine yes continue then there was an issue my lot of time that was raised half past two I said 1400 hours 30. but you know what maybe I should has it been disputed that it was an interaction by two unknown Essence whilst the witness and her family sends all the deceased two male or long way and makumalo were having a meal thereafter yes they were watching soccer and Kelly was just about to tell a joke and then two persons best into is there a dispute above it it's different if you say there's a dispute that no two Intruders got into the house then of course you've got to delineate the second experiences of how the fight was I mean that maybe even the deceased was not shot in the house yet nobody is saying that in the cross-examination as I'm following the the cross-examination unfortunately I'm not I'm not finished no no I'm talking about the defense itself excluding number five my Lord hello including number five you have not stood up here thank you my Lord but unless you are going to say that I'm not I'm not done with my cross-examination okay right the first two constances they never said there were no two persons who entered the room and there were no shots fired well there's a difference there could have been crucial three shots and one was loud and one wasn't loud and this witness can't describe what a firearm looks like because he doesn't know and you're ready with statement of long way who says it was a 38 what is this case about actually that's what I'm getting at social side I'm just listening to the to the cuts of the evidence as to how Mr senzo he is allegedly short but the basically we are here to demonstrate this concept yes yes that the gentleman that you're representing here were not involved in our River allegations that are raised against them by the states yeah because you have given yours your defense version that your client was not there is that not so yourself yes that's it yes and even your colleague there David version that his client was not there he was not so sad he did some a lot right now here's this witness he describes it people came in and they did x y z I'm saying I haven't hit anyone saying there were no Intruders in the house that's shots were fired in the house or a shot was fired in the house because if you're a defense counselor I would expect you to say I put it to you that there were no Intruders who went into the house and there were no shots fired inside the house I haven't heard that am I baby can we just pause yeah yeah okay until I start my case we're still coming yes I'm just saying the concepts I've listened to so far one two four up to now maybe after when he comes back cancel for the fourth yes yes definitely not done I do I'm not done by not I'm not done with my Concepts yes thank you it's basically my Lord that it's an issue of identification yes yes that's that's our difference I'm not talking about items I'm talking about the fact that two Intruders got into the house are you disputing this I don't know no no you've got a statement from the replying to say I wasn't there yes so it means you're disputing that or what are you on are we on the same level we are on the same level we're on the same level so you say there were not two people in the who got into the house is that what your instructions are you see are those yeah are you instructions that no two people intruded into the sanctity of the House of the kumalus if my not listened to our case they said they were not there yes the question is are your father saying no two people entered the house of the Commandos that's the bottom line if I say identification and then we are not the obviously they are saying Pizza position is that they were not to intrude Usman like why didn't you put it then you cross-examined the whole day that you see you never put it to this sweet desert no two people enter the house of the Commandos you never hit never cooked soup for a long way foreign so the evidence so far which has been put to this witness it's about identification no problem about it yes but that was the version is he was arrested in yes rustenburg is taken to carltonville yes in other words he wasn't there he wasn't there on the 26th of October yes 2014 yes so he can't tell this coach whether the two people intruded or not that's what I'm saying is difficult that's why now when we come to delineation of whether there were two shots three shots one was louder than the next one how does it assist this court in coming to solving this conundrum are you with me yes and I'm not stopping you from from first examining you see if your colleague says to me like he's saying there are three statements in one statement this pigment says I wasn't there I was in case that end on the 26th of October 2014. all we are arguing about is a they went outside to go in Smoke and I came back I don't know how it takes this matter further so what I'm requesting is that Council must cross-examine so that we know what the defense is okay it was at the moment I know what the version of the consoles are no problem but what we gonna do now is I'm listening is that it was never approached to this witness that they were not Intruders in the house you're correct to argue about the and it wasn't get me wrong we are correct to ask questions about the distinguishing features of the so-called two Intruders who went there no problem with it after you've done all that no one of you says these two so-called unknown people ever enter the house I know maybe by logic if this witness cannot describe who went into the house certain consequences fall obviously okay so say you are you going to continue on Monday on Monday do you want to continue up to do your job today no on Monday now let's let's finish at three where's the Sports to the lady foreign okay you're coming on Monday I think we shall again until Monday then [Music] okay okay

Channel: SABC News

Views: 247,268

Keywords: SABC News, actuality, world news, local news, Senzo Meyiwa

Id: fcUGMo4Zfzk

Length: 238min 59sec (14339 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 21 2023