Was Jesus Actually Born on December 25? (Dr. Michael Heiser)

everyone welcome to capture and Christianity my name is Cameron Bertuzzi and I'm exposing you to the intellectual side of Christian belief we have a special episode for you today it's a Christmas episode as you can kind of tell this is like the only Christmas sweater that I own but we're talking today with a biblical scholars name is dr. Michael Heizer about his controversial view that Jesus was not born on December 25th and so the question is when was he born and that's what we'll be discussing today so if you want to learn new exciting things about the Bible and about Christianity and see intelligent conversations between Christians and non-christians make sure to subscribe to my channel and turn on the little bell so you don't miss any new videos before we get into the interview just a quick reminder that I support my wife and two very young children through this ministry so if you find any the work that I do valuable please consider supporting me on a monthly basis at five dollars a month you can get early access to all of my content and gain access to a private Facebook group called the Bereans the link to support me and my family is in the description of the video it's also the link is patreon.com slash capture in christianity alright well let's get into the interview I'm gonna pull up my little screen here so we can see dr. Michael Heizer here and let me just go ahead and introduce you real quickly so dr. Michael Heizer he's a scholar in the fields of biblical studies and the ancient Near East his dissertation was entitled the divine council in late canonical and non-canonical second temple Jewish literature it's a mouthful he's probably most well known for his book the unseen realm in which he provides a scholarly yet accessible treatment of his view on demons and angelic beings in the Bible he's also the co-host of a podcast called the naked Bible which aims to connect the average Christian with scholarly views on the Bible it's actually one of my favorite podcasts that that I listened to so make sure to subscribe to look for it on anything that you listen to podcast content on iTunes Spotify it's on everything the naked Bible make sure to subscribe and dr. Michael Heizer also has dozens of years of classroom teaching experience and is currently a scholar in residence at Logos Bible Software which is a company that produces digital resources for studying the ancient world and biblical studies well dr. Heiser is great to have you on capturing Christianity so thank you for taking the time to do this I know that you're like literally in the middle of moving so you have you said like in in a week you're about to have all of your stuff out of your house yeah I I do not have a Christmas sweater most everything I have is in boxes somewhere stacked up all over the house yeah we're we're we're headed to Florida so one one correction on the intro I'm no longer with LA Goss this is the okay why we're moving I'm now my lofty title is now the executive director of the awakening school of theology and ministry in Jacksonville Florida it's through a large church network of churches we're starting a two-year two-year program really in biblical theology and what I like to call postmodern apologetics that we will be teaching through their school and it'll it's offered you know in distance as well so really all over the world so that's that's why we're moving and why we are mostly in boxes right well we only have you for a little while so I'm gonna get I'm gonna jump right in okay we're talking about a podcast episode that you recorded on The Naked Bible and before that let me just ask you a backup core like a background question there's there's one of the things that you've done in your website that has had a real profound impact on me which is a distinction that you make between reading the Bible and studying the Bible so how long would you say that you've been a student you've been studying the Bible boy I would say I became a Christian when I was in high school which I'm 56 now so maybe sixteen forty years I've probably been a student for good 35 35 years so when I I didn't consciously think okay it's time to go from reading the Bible to studying the Bible but looking back on it yeah but that's basically what I did gotcha all right well in one in episode 138 of your podcast you explained at length why you don't think that Jesus was born on December 25th by the way if you guys want to listen to that episode I have it linked in the description of this video so just look down and you can find it real so what got you interested in this particular question because there's a lot of different questions about oh by day but this one yeah you know I don't I don't know that it's really odd you know it's like a lot of other things that I do for the first two or three almost three centuries of the of the church nobody celebrated Jesus birth on any date so I can't say that this is controversial if we had a first century person here he'd probably just give you a blank stare like who cares but you know for various reasons the the birth of Jesus became associated with December 25th I do not think those reasons are pagan I did a different episode on the podcast about why Christmas is not a pagan holiday basically to wipe that off the table here the the whole issue of the birth of Jesus associated with December 25th was the result of math they were really obsessed in the first few centuries with the date of Easter that was a huge deal that was the defining moment of Christianity not the birth but the resurrection and so some people sort of retro verted you know did the math backwards and then there was a big fight over you know when that the birth was and you still have it today most Christians say December 25th Eastern Orthodox has it in January still to this day okay so but for the first three centuries nobody was was even into it I I don't find either of those views really satisfactory part of the reason is because the early church didn't land it on any of these positions and you will get early church early church and really you know very very ancient writers that situated the death of Herod differently than the majority view does today that was one thing that sort of tipped me off that you know that the typical chronology as an academic was Jesus was born in six BC but then you have to explain why Jesus is born before Christ and again some salt of all modern kalindra chol calculations but if you move the date of herod forward then you have a big problem with that with the call the consensus view and I also came across some research that actually took Revelation 12 you know this is gonna sound odd but but basically saying let's just read it as though it means what it says that John is looking up in the sky and he sees certain signage in the sky and if you plug that into an astronomy program that produces a certain date for the birth of the Christ child which is the subject of Revelation 12 that was I thought I found was really interesting but the thing that sort of tipped me over was Paul's statement in Romans 10 which I think I should probably just read for your audience this is the chapter where Paul's explaining or trying to get people motivated to preach the gospel to enter lands as I was listening to your podcast that was something that really stuck out to me is it you point out toward the end of route 10 is that there's something that goes on there that's really weird it's really unexpected you know so that so Paul in Romans 10:14 says how will they call on him in whom they have not believed how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard and how are they to hear without someone preaching okay so you're thinking well yes yeah we need to get out there because they haven't heard and then in verse 18 Paul says but I ask have they not heard indeed they have and you go what yes sounds like he's trying to like give you a set up for like go out into the earth and you know it's so that he quotes Psalm 19 as a proof text that they've heard it says for their voice and he's quoting the Septuagint they're the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible their voice has gone out to all the earth their words to the end of the world if you go back to Psalm 19 the Masoretic text is a little bit different says their line goes out through all the earth their words to the end of the world but that's verse 4 Psalm 19 for the first three verses are the heavens declare the glory of God the sky above proclaims his handiwork listen to the verbs of communication day to day pours out speech night tonight reveals knowledge there's no speech there no words whose voice is not heard their line goes out throughout all the earth and so this is Paul's proof text that yeah people should know about this they they know about this now he doesn't mean the gospel there have been you know some evangelicals like D James Kennedy's the one probably everybody knows he is a whole sermon a whole book on on how you can get the gospel the Romans Road essentially from looking at the Stars and the heavens thing and the constellations of the zodiac I don't believe that because if they could do that then Paul why doesn't Paul just say well our work here is done forget the Great Commission it's all done to thumbs up let's go you know do something else but he doesn't obviously so my view is that what Paul's getting at in Romans 10 is that everybody in in the known world had a chance to know that a divine king had been born it's something short of the whole romans road but he's telegraphing something the Stars what's going on in the heavens informed people about the coming of Jesus and when I sort of realized that I thought there's really something going on here and is how you segwayed into revelation 12 yep I suspect that what Paul was thinking was what John wrote in revelation 12 I can't really prove that that is specifically what was in Paul's head but it since it appears in the book of Revelation and you know written by the Apostle John it it had to have been a tradition in the early church first century that these were the circumstances in the heavens of the birth of the Messiah and again if you take it for what it says and there's I mean I know now I mean this is going back years I know now that there's a whole genre of what we would call an academia Astral prophecy and all ancient cultures thought what was going on in the heavens would you know telegraphed what the gods were doing and and things that would play out on earth you know sort of foreshadowings and forebodings and all that the Israelites had their own version of this that was monotheistic that Christians had their own version of this you know early Judaism Second Temple Judaism had their own version of this that was it wasn't polytheistic and wasn't it wasn't the modern idea of astrology that the Stars dictate individual destiny only God dictates destiny so that you know if you believe in if you believe anything but God is in charge of of the course of history you're a heretic and rightly so I think but what they did believe was that the heavens did communicate what God was up to and things that that God was sort of telegraphing again foreshadowing and so when you go back and you put Revelation 12 into an astronomy program what you get is you get a specific date for the birth of Jesus basically you have a 90 minute window when all of the circumstances and you know are our present that are in Revelation 12 and there are some things that are not listed in Revelation 12 that are present when you plug those the things that are mentioned into an astronomy program do you have yeah do you have Revelation 12 that you can read for the audience real quick just so they can get a yeah revelation 12 says this the first this is the first few verses and a great sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with the Sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars she was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth and another sign appeared in heaven behold a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and on his head seven diadem's his tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to earth and the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she bore her child he might devour it she gave birth to a male child and and here's this tells you who the child is one who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron it's a quotation of the psalm messianic psalm but her child was caught up to God and to his throne so reference to the resurrection and the Ascension and the woman who is Israel fled into the wilderness and there she has a place prepared by God in which she's to be nourished for 1260 days you know when when you when you take it okay I'm going to just assume that John actually means what he says this is this is astral stuff celestial signs it and we accept this idea with the second coming all the time we accept it with the star the Magi all the time but when you go to Revelation 12 and and try to get people to read it well that's just weird stuff well why is it what about signs of the sky at Pentecost or think it's the coming of the Son of Man or you know then it's okay but but we can't do it with revelation 12 why not is my question why yeah and so and so basically what you've done though and if I can just try to summarize what you what this is all based on is that it basically in Revelation 10 there's a reason why people that haven't been preached to could know about Jesus and then second there's a prophet in Revelation Romans 10 yes sorry and the UH and then the passage in revelation 12 describes the birth of Jesus and astronomical terms and from those terms we get like you said about a 90-minute window or all of these astronauts lose your audience the short grocery list okay the woman is Virgo there's only one woman constellation the moon is somewhere under her feet the terminology is not for sight the Sun precise the Sun is in her midst which is sort of classic astronomical terminology for the Sun being in a constellation so the Sun is going to be you know in in Virgo somewhere and it's the midsection that the dragon you know at the woman's feet waiting to devour the child there it depends on how you take Paul's statement in in Romans 1018 he's quoting the the the Septuagint or the MT it doesn't it's kind of six of one and a half a dozen or another but if the MT the Masoretic text is right there line if that's how we should read it then that is going to be a reference to the ecliptic the ecliptic is an imaginary line of the constellations follow in the course of every year well there's a there's what in the ancient world was a serpentine constellation right underneath the woman okay it was it was a combination of the Scorpion and Libra in ancient world they were viewed as one and the Libra would have been the pinchers off to the side is Hydra which is the dragon so either way there's a there's a there's a dragon underneath the woman okay so you put all those things together those are the things that are mentioned in Revelation 12 I think not Bently the constellation above Virgo is Leo it's the Lion of Judah inside Leo on the date that you get and then the date we might as well not keep it a mystery here the date is September 11th in 3 BC ok if you take that date then there's a conjunction of Regulus which is the the King star the star that was associated the ancient world with the birth of a divine king and it's exactly co-joined to Jupiter which was the King planet because it's the biggest one again the say at the same signage so all of these things together there's a 90-minute window when they're when they're all there and that date is September 11th 3 BC that date also coincides on the Jewish calendar with Tishri 1 which in the Old Testament was the date of the inauguration of the Davidic King okay so I mean you start to see some of these things concatenate and you know you it even goes deeper than that because Jewish tradition Tish free one was the birth of Noah okay so Jesus the Messiah and Noah Jesus a note would have shared a birthday and that's important for the symbology related to the reversal of what happens in Genesis 6 you know because the Messiah is supposed to reverse all the the supernatural and human rebellions in in biblical theology there's Genesis 3 there's Genesis 6 there's what happened at Babel you know that there these things ripple out in a number of respects so I'll work up on ya go you can jump in you know wherever you want to be the big problem with this that people you know pick at is well we know when Herod died in Haran died for sure and for BC no I actually don't there's actually a very good scholarly argument for Herod's death in 1 BC and a guy can give your audience the sources if they want to go read you know some of these things but oh go ahead and please jump in this is yours no yeah I was uh I was gonna pick up on Herod later and maybe we can actually go into some of those reasons but I wanted to touch on something that in your podcast you talked about September 11th and how it has is sort of in your view as a supernaturalists it has this kind of cosmic significance and so I wanted to ask you that what what do you mean by this sort of cosmic significance do you think September 11 something's going on with that well I think I think for us now you know for us now it's taken on that that impact I mean in the ancient world when Jesus is born I mean or in the first few centuries September 11th is going to mean anything Tishri one's gonna mean a lot that's gonna be huge and when and when Tishri one to the jew that okay the Davidic King is born you know you know the new Noah just like he's the new Moses and the new Joshua the new day but now we get the new Noah you know all these all these again important figures from Old Testament both historically and theologically especially again when we're talking about reversals of cosmic rebellion supernatural rebellion in in in in the Old Testament thoroughly and if you ask the average again Jew why is the world such a mess you know his answer is going to be different than you if you ask the average Christian today why is the world such a mess the average Christian God Genesis 3 the fall a Jew would not give you that answer but you would say well there's actually 3 reasons why the world is such a mess Genesis 3 is one of them but Genesis 6 1 through 4 is another Jenna and what happened at Babel Genesis you know 11 Deuteronomy 32 8 and 9 so they they viewed the chaos of the world as due to three events okay that are primeval Genesis 1 through 11 before the birth of Abraham and so the Messiah is supposed to fix all three of those now we know from what we know in the New Testament about Jesus the resurrection and the Ascension the coming of the Holy Spirit addresses all of them in different ways you know so so the Tishri one thing for the early Jewish Christian would be a big deal that the date coincides for a Gentile with their own set of astronomical signage about the birth of a divine king that's a big deal I mean it's just hard to miss so I think that's why the date is significant to us we look at September 11th as being again you know you know because of the the events in New York City it's it's obvious to those in the that that's a big deal but I'm not a believer that America is the subject of Biblical prophecy now I I wonder you know and this is all as I wonder if if we won't look back on it in a hundred years and think thoughts like you know this was this had a bigger the most more damaging effect to the church in the West and maybe the rise of Islam or something like that but but today I don't know that we can necessarily say that I mean the questions are a lot more complicated we don't we don't have the perspective yet as far as what's going to extend from this date what will will this date have led to tyranny in the West I don't know maybe you know but but again I don't think Biblical prophecy is about modern America or modern Western civilization I think it's bigger than that I mean we're certainly included we and we certainly played a role providentially in in God's use of of people you know to accomplish the Great Commission but he doesn't need us to accomplish the Great Commission he doesn't need America to do that God will use whatever means that he wants to use and he's going just going to do that so we lack the perspective at this point but in the ancient world the date would have been significant to both Jew and Gentile alright well let's move to I'm gonna hit live Q&A a little bit early today and so if you have a question for dr. Heiser ask it in the live chat we have some rules posted over this side actually so I'll just read them out so ask your questions and live chat one question per person make sure to tag at capturing Christianity so that I can see them please make sure that your question is on topic and super chat questions are bumped to the top automatically so if you want to make sure that your question is asked super chat so the way to do that oh and also thank you if you decide to do that okay well let's I have one question here that's not a necessarily question but Sentinel apologetics ass get Heiser to touch on the Qumran calendar dating and how they predicted the Messiah to arrive within a window of 10 BC to GC yeah there there are lots of ancient Jewish applications or let's let's just I guess exegesis is the right word of Daniel 9:24 through 27 the sadducees had one view the Pharisees had won the the Essenes or whoever you know lived at Qumran had another the Qumran system is the only one that has a a wide enough window basically you know 10 BC on into you know like one BC or a little bit a little bit after in which the Messiah would be born in fulfillment of Daniel 9 and the reason why there there's a the reason why they landed in the right place and there's this variance of years is is quite complicated basically the the Essenes used a a mathematically precise perfect calendar they did not use an astronomically strict calendar this is actually the reason why they left that the temple in Jerusalem and went out in the desert and pretended to have a temple and go through you know rituals even though they're just out living there among the tumbleweeds okay they they viewed their calendar they believed reflected the perfect mind of God and this was their calendar four quadrants of 90 days that's 360 plus one day in between that's 364 364 day calendar if you start the calendar on day 4 of Genesis it's perfect every Sabbath is on the same day every year every Jewish festival is on the same day every year every Passover same time every year whereas even now it's even today in Judaism there everyone some why you gotta throw in a thirteenth month you know to get Passover to line up you know correctly with the the Jewish calendar and whatnot so the Essenes looked at this going on saying your calendars contrived it's a human calendar why aren't you using the calendar of God here you know it starts on the fourth day and then you you know you just go with the even numbers and everything works perfectly every year you're in you're out it there's no variation it's mathematical perfection well if you adopt that calendar then you know that's one thing and then you have to decide is the Jubilee the 49th or the 50th so that's why there's this you know ten year you know window variance but they were that this was the only system applying all of that to Daniel 9:24 through twenty seven that got the Messiah Jesus born in the correct window so that's what he's talking about that's a really good dirty over all right so before we get to the next question I want to remind you guys if you have a question for dr. Heiser related to the date of Jesus's birth then make sure to tag at capturing Christianity that way I can see it and just ask anything is on topic and so I had a I should say if people want to to read about that Roger Beckwith's article it's b ec k wi th has an article on Daniel 9 and the calendar system nice right so here's one from Nathan Franck Houser ask dr. Heiser for a short source list for our further study yeah I think the important articles would be Andrew Steinman that's ste inma nn Andrew Steinman when did Herod the Great reign this is a recent article fairly recent 2009 novum testament' 'm 51 that's a scholarly journal it you know yeah I don't know if it's going to be available on the internet or not but if you're near a research library that has the JSTOR database you'll get it w e filmer has an article that's real important you see if I can get a reference I don't know if let me see here quickly yeah I'm not gonna be able to pull that one oh maybe I don't know I can't I don't have my flash drive in anyway w/e Fillmore how use Google Scholar fi lm ER and something about Herod's death or something like that and you'll get it Ormond Edwards has an article that's important on Herodian coins I'm trying to remember what it's called just put in chronology with Edwards in it and you'll find it there are four or five significant articles this this one I know is free if you go to if you use Google and you go to may get the reference here where my adobe readers just died in here let me try to bring this up again it's Arcee Young's website here now it won't open well put in use google again Arcee young let's see here death of Herod when did Herod rule something like that he just read this a paper at the last Near East Archaeological Society meeting in San Diego last November and he put it on online for free he put his slides in PDF form it's excellent it basically goes through the the five the four or five pillars of the consensus view about Herod died in 4 BC and shows you what the this view depends on it has three or four pillars and then destroys them all you know I mean he just shows again why none of the pillars are correct and if even one of them is incorrect the whole system falls but he destroys them all so this is a minority view and scholarship it's not new to me I didn't come up with it but those are those are some you know off the top of my head you know scholarly works that people can can consult you could probably google my website drm sh comm and put in Herod death Jesus birth or something like that and you may find the references there other than that I could probably I could just send you a short list to since my yeah what we're doing resources and stuff yeah if you could just email me afterwards and that would be perfect alright so next question is from Timothy Holman he says how do we know that John in Revelation is talking about a literal date and not just making a theological point Matthew seems to change his genealogy to get 14 times 3 well John doesn't give us John doesn't give us a genealogy nor does he give us an actual date he gives us a description of the sky so I don't know if that affects the question or not so we're not John isn't doing anything like Matthew's doing because he doesn't give us a genealogy so I I'm not sure I'm not sure that helps or hurts or I don't know where to go with it with it you know beyond that I mean basically I like like I said I I'm just taking John for what he says I look up in the sky and saw you know that he the book has these references in them and I think it's beyond coincidence of the results that it produces if you just take him at it you know at face value and plug it in right all right next question is from and I'm pulling it up on my screen here it looks like his name is Brian Hill he says what is this what is the significance of knowing this information is it to verify the reliability of the biblical prophecy no I mean you don't you don't need to you know certainly you don't need this to take the biblical prophecy seriously there are interesting things that sort of play out chronologically in the life of Jesus in other regards for instance if you're if you adopt these dates in Luke 4 when Jesus goes into the synagogue at nazareth and quotes isaiah 61 about the jubilee year it's a jubilee year okay you know they're just other things that it helps kind of fall in place chronologically but i think i think really it's about the messaging of the birth if you go back into the birth narratives and some of the things that are said if you are reading them as someone who is believing that jesus was born on a particular day with with a set of signage then there are gonna be things in certain passages that just have a bigger punch but you don't need them to affirm the historicity of the date all right next question is from chris pants and gives the way that's French just joined live the livestream question is why would the birth of Christ be recorded in Revelation 12 as opposed to the Gospels I wonder if it would be included after the event well it's it's because of Revelation cycling through revelation cycles through lots of things I mean it you know Revelation chapter 12 is about it's about more than the birth but revelation is concerned to connect events in heaven with events on earth and especially if you read it cyclically that there are things that are happening on earth both in the in the near past and also in the present and also in the future that the you know John is is connecting these things with the spiritual world which again occasionally for John means what's going on in the heavens you have to realize that that when they thought of the spiritual world they kind of like us they thought of it as up there alright we still we still talk this way because of biblical statements about where God is okay in the heavens well they they did that as well but they viewed the Stars and that the Sun of the Moon and all this stuff as as being part of God's either heavenly host just think about the term heavenly host okay the stars fighting from their courses and judges you know chapter 5 I mean the Old Testament is filled with astral language for supernatural beings the beings of the heavenly host and so it was very normal for them to associate things that they saw in the heavens with divine activity and so since John is making an effort to connect heaven and earth both past present and future the birth of the Messiah along with the death and the resurrection they're all in the same passage revelation 12 it's not just about the birth but those are significant events and so that that's why John is doing it he of course we have birth narratives in in Matthew and Luke and by the way that the Star of Bethlehem fits very well into this system remember I mentioned Jupiter the King planet I accept what most astronomers think explains the motion of the star and that as the retrograde activity of Jupiter well Jupiter's in the picture in Revelation 12 it's not mentioned in Revelation 12 but again if you plot it out there it is in conjunction with you know Regulus the King star so it's there it works just fine if you wanted to sort of read like a a book that encompasses lots of other things associated with this topic and and events in Jesus life I do recommend the star that astonished the world by a martin i don't buy you know several things that Martin says theological II in other books but I find this this book pretty compelling you know so that would be a good sort of introduction to a lot of it alright let's get to the next question here and pull it up on the screen sorry guys I'm doing a new format today and it's taken a lot of work in the background to display these on the screen hopefully you guys are benefitting all right let me pull up my my notes here so so from Jorge a Neto what dr. Heiser see oddities setbacks of crit of the Christmas story long travel to Bethlehem supposed adultery of Mary no room and in killing of boys connected to the dragon's attack did he say adultery of Mary opposed the dole free of Mary all the supposed adultery of Mary well I mean there are other things about about the birth story that certainly connect I do think again how can I say this and have it be quick here the again think think like a gen well I guess you can think like a Jew here too but but the the the messaging of the heavens and associated divinity again with the king there's this whole debate like did the Israelites really expect them as Ziya to be divine I mean and I think you can make a good you know Old Testament theological argument for the necessity of that so if you're thinking along those terms this would be something that would align really well with that there there is again the part of the birth married about going down to Egypt which of course mimics the Exodus I mean none of this Mars Jesus birth and early life and and really all the way up through his baptism as a as what scholars like to call a new Exodus there's a lot about the Exodus tradition that maps over to Jesus life because he is the son of God Israel was the corporate son of God Israel is called God calls Israel my son a few times in the Old Testament one of which is in the exodus narrative Hosea 11 out of Egypt I have called my son this is the the again the passage that Matthew quotes it actually refers to Israel corporately back in Hosea 11:1 and Hosea is looking backward Matthew sees an analogy and uses it of Jesus so all of that stuff would certainly be what we'd call Dragon activity because in Exodus 12 God views the plagues as be a direct attack on the gods of Egypt this night you know Passover the death of the firstborn I will have victory over the gods of Egypt so I take those you know those of you who have read unseen realm already know this the biblical writers believe that the gods of the Old Testament were real they were real entities yes they attached themselves to idols yes people build idols so that the gods could inhabit them and they could make deals with them and all the all the ancient Near Eastern religious stuff but when when scripture says that Yahweh is the God of all gods I think it means exactly what it says he's not the god of cartoon figures he's not the god of beings that we really don't know don't exist and so we sort of read that with a wink and a nod now they're serious about it and so if you look at it that way yeah you know the circumstances of the birth in the early life certainly play into again the new Exodus idea all right next question excuse me next question is from Infinite Rome pull up my screen here infinite roam hope it's not a stupid question but is the calendar and ancient time similar or different from today's calendar I ask this because I assume it's something that could confuse some people oh it's this is it's a quagmire we just just like today we have different we use different calendars that start at different points of the year there's a school calendar there's a fiscal calendar there's the you know you know official monthly calendar that's based on astronomy or at least it was at one but you know Julian count so we have multiple calendars they had multiple calendars and so no they don't all align you have to sort of work at what corresponds to what and which one corresponds to which one and which ones you care about and which ones we don't even use those anymore so who gives a rip you know it it's it's actually quite complicated and in the ancient world they had the same issue with Jewish versus Gentile calendars and then you had you know when it when Christianity was was legalized and became the official religion of Rome it's like you know they switched their calendars you know so it it's really quite complicated there's no neat well I shouldn't say this there's no simple alignment lots of people have devoted their lives to to doing this and working in this area and so you can get you know a good alignment but to sort of explain why it is what it is is good good luck with that I mean you can quit your job yourself to a calendar alignment and somebody pays you for that I guess that's a good deal you know so I have just to let you guys know I have plenty of questions in the queue right now so if you want to make sure that one of your questions is asked then we'll need to do super chats so if you don't want to do a super chat for your question then there's no need to put any more chats and questions in a live chat so here's the next one next question is from its Gila nebith I don't know how to pronounce that is any other ancient religion culture paid attention to this far this to this star in formation or was it important special for them yeah well you know the it just in greco-roman religion generally they're going to associate this like one feature let's just take one feature the conjunction of Jupiter and Regulus they're going to associate that with the divinity of a king the birth of a king so that that's an auspicious thing that that's probably the easiest thing to see as far as what would what would sort of be part of a a non you can't even use the word Christian because this is the birth of Jesus but a non-jewish system that that would have spoken volumes to a Gentile so there there's an example but you're the Magi again depending on where you think they're from you know Persia Babylon you know some other east whatever that is and there are a number of options there they're just they're good illustration for how people in the ancient world did pay attention to these features even though they're not themselves Jewish they didn't have to be Jewish to think that that some of these elements were important they were associating them and we can argue as to why is was it the influence of daniel it was their exposure to the hebrew scriptures or what but they they also considered their importance in relationship to judaism so the judaism wasn't alone there but some of the things you know they would have been least these would have been part of the picture for a long time alright so we got it we did get a super chat from it's like from jay shy and i'm making sure that it's on the screen here it should be on the screen okay he says would you say that ancients believed the natural world is the supernatural is supernatural as well since they see stars this way and so on yeah an ancient person would have would have thought of lots of things you know as either indicating the presence of a supernatural being or associated associated it with the you know domain or province or severe of authority of a supernatural being it's not just the the heavens you know this is why this is why the Old Testament will associate the Old Testament actually D mythologize is a bit here it was common in like oh I'll just use can I go up in Scripture which is why I'm gonna use them but Dever you know plague cuts have you know famine rash f you know the warfare you know these you know severe natural disaster kind of terms they they can I'd have assigned each one individually to a specific minor deity the Old Testament doesn't do that the Old Testament assigns those things under the province of Yahweh but in like a Habakkuk three those deity names Tet have never rash F are in Yahweh's retinue and that and that and that's a way of subordinating them to the true God so they don't have their own spheres of authority it's it's Yahweh who has the authority so it was away the Old Testament writer against sort of put them in their place and and and gave God credit for his you know control over over that the forces of nature but this is really it's really common it for those of you who are kind of interested in this topic if you go to my website dr ms h calm and go to the faq the last question at the bottom of the faq page deals with this there's a there's there's a difference in looking at the natural world and learning what makes the natural world tick and realizing that you know a biblical person whether it's a biblical writer or just somebody living in the 1st century bc they would have been you know incorrect to think that these things were actually like divine beings and so you know it's easy to look at them as metaphors that's one thing but when they when they when they're giving us information about the spiritual world that hey there are they're the spiritual world actually is is populated that the beings there are real there is in fact a spiritual world that is adamant and populated and and you know there's there's a rebellion and there's loyalty and there is spiritual warfare that like these that the spiritual world is real that is something that we can't sit in judgment on with the tools of science when the Bible tells us something about the spiritual world that's revelation when the Bible tells us something about the natural world I think you know I think it's very clear from the creation mandate in Genesis 1 that God expects and knows that we are going to learn we're going to subdue the earth and find out what makes it tick we're going to grow in our knowledge of that and God expects us to put the you know put those things under under the tools of art of discovery but the spiritual world by definition doesn't work that way it can't be put under a microscope it can't be detected with the five senses it is beyond that the you know it's beyond science we can't use the tools of science to sit in judgment on it rather we have to use that use the tools of logic and coherent thought and and again I think philosophers whether they're believers or atheists or whatever have done a pretty good job of showing the coherence of theism over the last few millennia so I think I think we're ok there in showing that the idea of theism and and the the reality of supernatural beings is a coherent worldview and I think that's the biblical you know worldview I I accept the reality of a supernatural world i I know that the star is a ball of gas so that up there that isn't a supernatural being but I can understand why they would have fought that because that's in a domain where where God lives or the gods or whatever and and so is the sea and the mountains and you know these are places that aren't fit for human habitation that humans can't go they can't live they're not part of God's ordered world for Humanity to live in and on and so yeah you know that this they're remote they're hostile again so then they would they would associate these sorts of natural things with divine activity and and you know we can look at that and say ok we know why thunderstorms come and bla bla bla bla bla oh that's good that's fine you know we understand the biblical people that God picked God picked these people to write Scripture knowing what they knew and what they didn't know and if God wanted them to give us science that conforms to a 21st century pool of knowledge he would have not picked those people back then he would have picked people now so the fact that God didn't pick people now but he picked people then ought to tell us that God's purpose had nothing to do with communicating scientific knowledge it must be about communicating something else and so God lets them use the tools and the language the symbols the metaphors whatever at their disposal to give us the information that God does want us to have and that was really smart on God's part you know why because science changes if you don't tether theology to science that's a smart thing because then theology the theological messaging you transcends science it is true and relevant no matter when you live you just express it in a different way so again I have a discussion of that in my FAQ because when you get into this star talk and how ancient people viewed the world it sounds kind of goofy to us because we're modern yeah learn lots of things in the Bible that sound goofy to us because we're modern but this is why I on my podcast and everything I write what I want people to do is to read the Bible as though an ancient person read it you know and wrote it that way because guess what they did that's the way God set it up so it doesn't answer your questions it answered their questions and it reflects the way they would talk about things not the way we would talk about things yeah that's a really good point I wish more people were able to to get that well let me let me just remind everyone self open scripture up to you like nothing else and it's hard it's hard to read the Bible like an ancient person but lo and behold these things have their own internal coherence and logic you you you will be able to see what in the world they're trying to say and you'll be able to follow threads and connect dots you just will but it's hard alright so we only have time for one more question and then we're gonna close it out because Heiser has got to go and do a lot of other things and like I mentioned at the very beginning of this this episode he's in the middle of moving and he was just able to squeeze in an hour of his day so I really again I really appreciate you taking the time to do this so here's the last one it's another super chat from Harley wieck's it looks like it I don't know if that's a guy or girl anyways they asked what does Daniel mean when he says the wise will shine like stars is it the same is that the same thing as going to heaven or does it relate to the Star of Bethlehem youghal DRM sh calm and put in the word stars and Abraham and Genesis 15 and you will find an episode of the podcast where I had a guest on David Burnett this is the subject of his thesis and that is the promise in Genesis 15 about the seed of Abraham would be like the stars of heaven in antiquity that was not just viewed as a numerical promise it was a qualitative promise stars Ravidas divine beings and this is a way of communicating the fact that believers human believers who are members of God's family will be glorified they will be like the Stars it will be made divine like first John says we will be made like Jesus so that's what Daniels talking about it's talking about our glorification and our exaltation to become members of God's family and again as I say an unseen realm we are going to be the reconstituted Council of God replacing all the members of God's Council who rebelled and we get their jobs and we get their spots in God's house as it were alright and with that we're gonna leave it so I really appreciate again you coming back on or not back on this is your first time on the channel so maybe in the future we'll have you back on to discuss something else that's not completely related to just Christmas is there anything else that you want to leave my audience with places to go and any other thoughts yeah I mean I would encourage you to you know listen to the podcast and you know drm sh comm is the nerve center you can find all the stuff that i'm into there I mean I I spent a lot of time in the in the in the fringe internet world what I affectionately call Christian middle-earth and just middle-earth in general trying to help people to think well about Scripture and about Jesus about primary sources in general to do something useful you know for people who are well outside the faith and maybe you know help them to to be less hostile toward it so please avail yourselves of that and of course you know have a wonderful Christmas have a Merry Christmas enjoy the day doesn't matter if Jesus was born on December it is always good to remember the Lord's birth well yeah so Merry Christmas everybody someone mentioned that they wish they could find the sweater I actually got this as a gift my wife is a blogger and someone gave her this sweater and I had to wear it for some picture and so that's I just threw it on but anyways thanks for joining me on this special Christmas episode again subscribe to the channel like this video if you enjoyed it and we'll see you guys around alright have a good Christmas see ya [Music] [Music]

Channel: Capturing Christianity

Views: 24,423

Rating: 4.8357897 out of 5

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Id: SS7r3_fxzUc

Length: 53min 15sec (3195 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 23 2019