Understanding The Narcissists In Your Life And What To Do About Them Feat. Dr. Ramani | Mel Robbins

narcissism I find to be an absolutely fascinating topic and the reason why I don't think it's dark is because I believe that when you understand what it is and what it isn't and when you have tools all of a sudden there is a light at the end of the tunnel that you're walking down and you realize you're not crazy you're around somebody who's making you believe you are correct that's beautifully put and I agree with you in a way what it is is you're giving you know back in the day we would have said a road map no I'd like to think of it as GPS I'm giving people a I'm hoping to give people a guide to what they're dealing with and not in an accusatory your bad I'm good way but in more of a this may not be good for me and to not the challenge in this space of the narcissism space is so many people invest themselves and will can I get this person to change can I be better can I do different to pull something different out of them and it's to say stop that that's not going to change right it's like trying to change the weather there's nothing you can do to make Chicago warmer in February is going to be cold bundle up great City but it's going to be cold okay I wanna I wanna just uh go there was a wake-up call right there when you're done listening to this episode and you understand what narcissism is and you learn the signs to Spot It takeaway number one is you cannot change the weather in Chicago and you cannot change the behavior of a narcissist so let's start at the beginning because people are fascinated by the topic of narcissism the word is now thrown around all the time what is the definition of a narcissist okay so let's get I don't even want to go to Step Zero from step one here is to say narcissism is not a diagnosis okay wait what it's not everyone's like don't diagnose people I'm like okay I I roll up to someone I said if I called you stubborn would you tell me I'm diagnosing you they're like no if I told you you were agreeable would you tell me I'm diagnosing you know then why are you saying narcissism is a diagnosis when it's not it is a personality Style just like agreeableness just like introversion all of those are personality Styles nobody's getting themselves all the b in their Bonnet when we say those other things wait a minute I thought that this was like a diagnosis see already I'm learning stuff from you so narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis right okay that is okay that's a very specific three words specific it's like if let me put it this way no one would get mad at you if you walked up and said gosh you're sad you seem a little depressed don't diagnose me we'd be okay with you saying oh you're sad you seem a little depressed right why depressed actually is a kind of a clinical term right depression it's actually called major depressive disorder is a diagnosis that's actually more on point but this word has got people so worked up don't diagnose me it's interesting it's a pattern that is rewarded by society and yet people don't want to be called it I'm like pick a lane folks so it's so let's start here it is it is a personality style it is a maladaptive style it is an antagonistic style but it's a style no different than any other personality style okay so just so I make sure that I'm tracking and everybody's tracking so basically we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism in society there is narcissists and narcissism which is a personality style that is maladaptive that we all might exhibit at some point no no okay no no no no no I got a personality you got a personality people listening and watching this they've got a personality and that's their personality I know I'm for example Mel I'm introverted okay everyone's like no you talk so much um oh heck no there was a day the other day where I didn't speak to a single human being and I didn't leave my house it was the best day of my week and people aren't you sad and you're we're going out I'm like have fun don't call me like we're good so I am a naturally introverted person I am never going to be the life of the party I am never going to want to go to a party I am not a joiner and after I spend time with a large group of people I Collapse into bed okay yep that's my personality okay I've been like that since all my life all right and that got shaped so if that is my personality some people aren't a little bit introverted there's extroverted person if you've ever spent time with an extroverted person they actually kind of lose their mind I don't have plans where is everybody I can't believe I need to be alone I've worked with clients who are extroverted and they really are upset about that and as an introverted therapist I for a minute I was like what like that sounds like fantasy camp like three days alone sign me up you know but I have to be empathic too this is hard for them they're exhausted by being alone I have an incredibly extroverted child and when she's alone for six hours it she actually starts feeling very sad and so and that's real I can't say don't be ridiculous use your time alone like just like if somebody said don't be ridiculous Romney you're at a party you know lighten up it's the same thing so that's why I'm saying you are what you are I I actually think a lot of people out there don't have narcissistic qualities so let this leads us to then what is this right personality disorders but there's two things just so I'm tracking we're going to talk about we're going to talk about narcissism as a personality style yep and then narcissistic personality disorder and I mean it's a diagnosis it's a diagnosis and you know what I don't even think we should talk about it okay because the effect is only one to maybe four percent of the population has this personality disorder okay the vast majority of cases are never diagnosed and it is a I actually think they should get rid of the diagnosis I think it serves no function whatsoever I really don't it's the only diagnosis in the world where having it means you do more harm to other people than to yourself most disorders are based on the distress that the person themselves are facing a person with major depressive disorder is really struggling a person with generalized anxiety disorder is experiencing distress even other personality disorders like borderline personality disorder these are people who are having a lot of distress narcissistic personality disorder as long as life's going the way they want it to they are happy as can be and until something goes wrong then they make a mess scream at everyone and then when it goes back to the way they are they tend to make more money they're much more successful they tend to have more success in dating so I'm that this is a tough diagnosis to give out now let's break down what narcissism is okay great so so if I and I just want to make sure because this is such an interesting topic and obviously there's lots of content out there all over the place but you are in my opinion the world's leading expert on this and so what you're basically saying is if we just understand what a narcissistic personality is that's enough yeah because then you can spot the signs then you can learn to protect yourself and if I'm going to extrapolate what you're saying you're basically saying the one to four percent of people that ever get that diagnosis anyway already have the personality type so it doesn't matter it's just blown out out of proportion and they're finally now in therapy and don't most narcissists don't know go to therapy that's the thing that's what I'm saying so there's a lot of people out there who may have this quote-unquote diagnosis they're never going to get diagnosed because they're never across the table from a licensed mental health professional who's actually the only person qualified to issue such said diagnosis and I'm going to be honest with you even the majority of people who have the disorder it's never documented anywhere because the insurance company ain't going to pay for therapy for it because you can't do anything about it so yeah on hold on so that was also just she you just said it again you cannot change the weather in Chicago and you cannot do anything to change somebody with a narcissistic personality yeah and let's push this a little bit further okay so this is I'm going to be sort of a provocateur here personality is tough I I there's there's different schools of thought on how much personality can change all right there's a little wiggle room and I think the more the greater a person's flexibility psychological and personality the healthier the person is it's almost like your body the more flexible you are likely the more you work it out the less likely you're going to develop osteoporosis and break bones and all that flexibility is everything but it I would say it matters more psychologically than it even means physically right that's why people stretch before a workout oh that's interesting because what I'm thinking about right now is there's a there's a pretty uh well there's a pretty famous Ted talk but I think it's Dr Schwartz talking about personality and what he basically says and now I'm realizing it's the flexibility you're talking about he like you said I'm a professor and I am very introverted but when it matters to me I can be flexible I can stand in front of that you know that that classroom and I can profess but the second that lecture is over I Collapse I'm done that's it that's it so the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert like me can shut up and be alone when it matters an introvert like you can step in front of the mic invite people into your home when it matters but that flexibility is very limited it's tied to when it's important to you but then you go back to your Baseline is that what you're saying in fact there is a theory and I hope I credit it's his right person I think it's Campbell people is the one who writes about this the idea of the Rubber Band Theory of Personality and the idea of the rubber band is that you we all have our personality rubber bands just sitting there in its state that's who we are but we can stretch it okay we could stretch it a bit but when back to baseline or even at times of stress we go to our Baseline personality right the challenges is that that person with a narcissistic personality not only has trouble stretching it's not even the stretching as much as the changing you see here's the challenge with the narcissistic personality which I still haven't described and I'm aware of it sorry but the uh with a challenge with the narcissistic personality is is that it's it's a very egocentric self-serving style right it's designed to get them what they need it's it's what they what helps them feel safe what helps them feel happy with very little regard for anyone else other personality Styles agreeableness in fact agreeableness is considered the counterweight to narcissism so narcissism is actually what's called it's it's a real personality style it's disagreeableness or antagonism right so if narcissism's disagreeableness agreeableness is the other side of that agreeable people are I love agreeable people they're the best like I just would like like a little commune full of them we're never going to take over the world and we're not going to make a lot of money but let me tell you so fun empathic warm flexible uh make accommodation for other people follow the rules highly ethical that's agreeableness opposite of narcissism right so what is narcissism so narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy and I'm going to talk about or performative empathy which I'm going to get to in a minute okay so but they have inconsistent or low empathy they're very entitled they're arrogant they're egocentric they are chronically validation and admiration seeking they need to be in control all the time they are poorly emotionally regulated prone to show strong shows of Rage if they're frustrated or disappointed or aren't getting in their way they're very easily provoked and very thin-skinned if anyone gives them feedback or criticism like they just rage very quickly they can't regulate themselves at those times they're very pretentious they tend to be very superficial um I mean the list goes It's that kind of stuff now the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity and that's the piece we forget these are not people actually who at their most Primal unconscious level believe their hype they are that all of this stuff is to create almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity the narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame and the shame is that an unconscious level people are going to see they ain't all that so if anything even pokes them that like even someone makes a joke at their expense they lash out to maintain dominance because that's that you also want to know what motivates the narcissistic person power dominance control and frankly safety because all those things keep them safe if they're in control if they're the boss if they have all the money then they feel okay all the power whatever the fame whatever it looks like then they're okay that's narcissism what's tricky about narcissism is there's different I forgot to also they're very grandiose so they live in a fantasy world I'm gonna have the perfect love story look at my perfect life you can see how social media took this grandiosity and blew it up into something that I've been been studying narcissism since before there was social media and I was like what the holy hell just what have you seen I mean what happened was narcissism's always been around as long as they were human beings I'm guessing like Attila the Hun was probably a narcissist Napoleon might have been a narcissist I think if you go all the way back in the history books in fact when I helped my daughter with all of her ancient and you know even modern European history I'm like narcissist narcissist narcissists I said you see how much they shaped history to this day so I think that what it's always been there yeah okay the difference was back in the day if you needed validation okay you and I are both old enough to know about rotary dial phones and no answering machines and no social media okay so there was a time if you needed validation you actually had to clean up and leave the house true right like you actually had to get up and go you couldn't become famous right even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper on some kind of rant the editor was going to get a hundred of these or they'd get 100 of these and pick one so there was no public place to do this so where narcissists really did their their their dirty work was they would harm the people around them very dominant probably cruel to spouses cruel to children I think if you look at Family Lines of this intergenerationally they'll say like yeah really brutal father really brutal grandfather really brutal great grandfather and it often links to things like hierarchies patriarchies like things that are all very very hierarchical one person gets the final say not because they're a good person right but just because so these systems have always been there and so what happened though is one day I remember it so well I remember the house I was living in somebody said to me have you seen this thing called Facebook I'm like Facebook and every I remember what a Facebook was Facebook was that cool both pictures that you'd get in your first year of college like I that's what it was called where I went to college so there's a Facebook and I'm like what is a college thing and they're like no you need to go check this out they said create an account so I did and I was like oh this is what happened to all those people I went to high school with okay but at the moment I thought oh God you just write stuff and people like it what went through my head in that moment I remember my kids were really small at the time and it's the moment sticks in my mind I thought this is going to be a disaster you know it must have been like being like a like a pulmonologist or a cardiologist when cigarettes were out you're like what is happening and so at that moment I thought the game's about to change I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram and the influencing and all I had no idea was coming there but I thought wow no nobody needs to leave the house they can put forth a false version of themselves the grandiose version the fantasy version and sit at home and let the validation come in my concern was that this was going to make their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall and I think that has been borne out wow so can I ask you a question because this is one of the things that really changed my life when you taught me that narcissists are not born they're made what is it can you explain that to everybody because this is this is a game changer yeah understand this so nobody's Born This Way okay I mean I guess even in a family structure where you have a grandfather a father like these dominant or mother person it you're not born a narcissist everyone listening to this it will say there are four kids in our family and I have a brother who's narcissistic and the rest of us are really cool and nice and kind to each other so think of how many people out there who have siblings like I'm my sister's really kind and my other sisters really really narcissistic so it's if that was the case it should appear in all siblings or at least at least 50 percent of them so how does that get made it's made so here's the most likely explanation is that there may very well be this has not been isolated yet but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it and that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament temperament is the genetic part of our personality anyone who spent time around a baby will know some kids soothe really easily some kids are just they're easy they're easy Smiley friendly babies they're really sweet kids right right and as they grow up they stay sweet and the teachers like them and they have friends and they're just sweet sweet then they're those kids who will not stop crying and they're demanding and as they grow up look at me look at me look at me look at me look at me and they're always doing things for attention and they're disruptive and they won't sit still and and as they enter preschool in school the teachers always sit down stop that so they're already starting to get kind of bad vibes from their constant attention-seeking Behavior it's probably an interaction in fact the kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met so you have this biological temp vulnerability yep in the hands of a skilled attached warm present loving consistent parent that might be manageable and that sort of ah energy might get turned into athletic interests or creative interest and that child won't feel pathologized for their style but I hate to say it probably for the majority of kids with that style it's a lot of stop that sit down can't you be more like your sister you're going in the corner you're you're making a mess you're going to the principal so that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around that invalidation plus the temperament plus the possibility that they don't have a environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment plus the possibility of trauma chaos and neglect that's one Pathway to develop a narcissist so so if I can just make sure I'm understanding what you're basically saying is even regardless of temperament if you're not getting your emotional needs met if you do not feel safe and secure in your house if you have a parent that abandons you a parent that's abused yeah you know somebody with mental illness and addiction somebody who's unpredictable that you as a child don't feel safe or you don't feel seen all those emotional needs and that's what leads to narcissism but not always in fact I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time many many many many people grew up in situations like that of trauma of neglect of abuse of chaos and they do not go on to become narcissistic they typically go on to become rather anxious adults with poor self-appraisal who don't know their value and worth a whole nother different burden to carry but the narcissism oh no no I was actually talking about myself my dear so yeah that's all me you know so it's a um but at the end of it what we see is that it's still the problem is is that these paths aren't linear I always say narcissism is a story We the development of narcissism is a story we can tell backwards but never forwards so if I I'm thinking I have some clients who have been through horrific Early Childhood trauma horrific um physical abuse sexual abuse violence it grew up in chaos to tell you that these are some of the most empathic loving human beings I've ever met would be actually missing the mark they're they're just solid people if anything they don't understand their value like their their harm is very internalized it's like I'm not good enough I'm not doing enough but there's so much goodness so much empathy they've gone on to become amazing parents all of that right so that it's that that early chaos does not damn someone by a long shot but it does set up these what are called adverse childhood experiences it definitely if we've used I definitely if we view this from a probability standpoint there's more negative outcomes that could come either internalized disliking oneself or externalized and that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like now there's a secondary path to narcissism okay and that secondary path is actually one we probably should be monitoring in modern times quite a bit which is the overindulged child the child who gets whatever they want money is spent on them lavishly you're so great you're so smart there was a study done out of Amsterdam now it'll be interesting to see what happens when these kids turn into adults he was studying children but what he found this guy thinks his name is Eddie brummelman's at the University of Amsterdam and what he found was that children who were told they are more special than other children those were the kids that were already showing entitlement and other sort of soft signs of narcissism so it's not that you're telling your child they're special it's that you're more special than somebody else oh that was sort of that that was the sort of the penny drop moment which is very much what you could imagine a more narcissistic parent doing my child is more special than the other children my child deserves special treatment my child should play the whole game my child should get this my child should get that but you're looking at kids where they're not taught the most there's two critical things three critical things I'd say every child needs okay so there's three critical things secure attachments so explain secure adaption secure attachment happens when a child has at least one primary caregiver that is consistently available that the child feels that they can call that caregiver when they need them that that that that secure attachment develops over the early years and we're talking birth to like two or three this is something where you got to get you got to lock this in early okay right that securely attached child in those early experiments done by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth sort of seminal work in the field what they found was that the child who was securely attached when Mom would leave them in a strange situation that would be a preschool or babysitter or something like that the child would whimper a little like where are you going but then they would actually calm down very quickly with the soothing of a caregiver and then when the parent came back to pick them up the child would be thrilled to see them in children who are more anxiously or avoidantly or insecurely attached there would be almost difficult to soothe kind when at the point the parent came back and more importantly I mean when the parent left so they'd be difficult to soothe when the parent left and when the parent came back the child would actually either go into absolutely like another meltdown almost like how could you leave me or they turn their head away from the parent you see where is that securely attached child would actually be happy to see the parent when they got a turn see okay so now that secure attachment is number one and that's created by consistency and availability in that early environment you need one parent doing that and it one primary caregiver to be honest it's anyone whoever that child identifies as such number two is that children need to they they need to learn how to soothe themselves and they learn need to learn how to be disappointed okay and we're not letting them do that like sometimes you fail sometimes you don't get the teacher you want sometimes they run out of chocolate ice cream by the time you get up and you know what you sometimes you lose that shoots and ladders I remember like saying I'm gonna win this game and you have to be like don't let them win I'm ain't gonna let them win so I'm getting up to the top of the shoots and letters and I'm gonna win and I'm saying wow that felt good and when my daughter said that's not fair I said oh ho ho ho I won this game let's be present with me winning you want to play again sure we can do that again but you need to learn to be present that not every outcome is the way you're going to want it to be that's number two number three is empathy you've got to Foster empathy in children and Foster compassion that can be through books they read stories they experience sure but above all else in the home how do they learn that it's modeled for them they see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other they see extended family empathizing with each other they see empathy in the classroom they see empathy in the world you can and you can imagine a child who sees none of that or the parent is acting in a very entitled manner like oh let's just go to the head of line we're more important than these people or oh gosh you know we're not sitting in that line all these things parents do that they think are innocuous in an airport at a soccer game at a theme park your kid's learning and their their brain is just an explosion of neurons and dendrites and that's getting filed away under we're special you know the reason why this is so interesting to me is because I think one of the challenges when you have these either a narcissistic parent or sibling or boss or somebody that you're in a relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault yes and when I learn from you that narcissists are made in child mm-hmm it just opened up this door for me to go oh wow so they didn't like choose to be this way they're not consciously doing this it's what it is it's it's a regulation issue right so it's the sense that a narcissistic person never quite feels safe in the world right because they never feel safe they're always on the offense and the defense simultaneously right I'm gonna win I'm gonna dominate me me and you're looking at me you're looking at me and then rage rage rage so that constant offensive defense that they play is a make some very antagonistic unless things are going exactly the way they want and where narcissistic people are tricky is that if they feel safe I got to tell you it might be one of the most engaging and trancing exhilarating charismatic Charming experiences you've ever had they've hung the moon they've hung the sun only for you it is I mean it's dopamine okay it's literally a Jacqueline experience it is but then at a time they don't feel safe or they're bored it's over and people will spend their lives trying to get back to that hung the song hung the moon kind of a moment and they said they really don't have any more use for you anymore then that's it you ain't gotta feel that again well let's talk about what are the five warning signs that someone's a narcissist so I would say number one would be that they're very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism so if you say anything even even like a really thoughtful critique like you know I would consider rewriting this paragraph throw the paper in your face really really oh so you're James Joyce you write it you know that kind of thing so very reactive very quick okay number two oppositionality if you tell them to do something they they'll go out of their way they don't like being told what to do so you might ask them could you wear a mask that was a big one during the Panic could you wear a mask how dare you tell me to do this um could you not park there that's reserved parking for the people who are coming to get I don't know coming to for whatever reason how can the today's parks are hard these spots aren't you I'm parking right here they if you tell them to do something it is as though they feel they're being dominated and controlled they ain't having that that's another thing is you see oppositionality they are their empathy is very superficial some people say no no they had empathy I'm like talk to me about that empathy and what you'll see is that it is very performative it's very superficial so can you give us an example an example might be um oh my gosh oh my gosh your brother's sick oh wow that's got to be really really hard are you okay are you okay that sounds nice okay then very quickly it'll be like you're and now you want to talk about like you'll I'm the other person now yeah I know he's been sick but it's brought up all this other stuff for me you know like I'm really feeling like lost and I'm realizing how much my brother is how I and then the narcissist is gonna be doing a lot of like this they don't want to hear it so they'll they'll come in with it they'll they'll say I always say this narcissistic folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts but they're really bad at a true gratitude so they will be seemingly empathic but as soon as you go in a little deeper like you're actually really talking about your brother's illness affected you now you'll see they'll tune out like ooh too much emotion coming their way too much need so it's very quick silver what I call thank you card empathy like it'll seem so on point but they're not really present with you they'll cry at a movie but when that same exact thing happens in their life there's they're they're actually treating the other person badly and they don't even connect the two like you were just crying when those that man beat someone in the in the story and then yet you were threatening some like how do you not see and they don't see it they do not see it so there is a performative quality to the empathy and there's also a transactional quality to their empathy they'll be really warm to you when they need something but when they get it they'll actually click out and that's a really bad feeling because you're recognized oh they were just nice to me to get that thing so I'd say it's this inconsistent performative sort of pseudo superficial empathy that's another thing um the fourth I would say is egocentricity it's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation interrupt people and constantly make it about themselves so even when somebody might say I went abroad from my very first trip and it was amazing and I went on an airplane and I did this and I did that I got my first passport like really sweet it's so beautiful to hear people and you just sort of drink it all in the narcissistic person give them like three minutes and they'll like what airline did you take yeah and I take that Airline it's not that great what hotels you're saying like the hotel I'd recommend in Rome is this it's oh I went there I went to that restaurant and it just becomes now it's their travelogue and they're yammering on they just love to hold to court and Mama it's always the conversation always steers back to them they cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story or will interrupt or will sort of be contemptuous and be like like that there'll be a lot I'll do that for the camera like like a lot of like oh my gosh we're listening to this sort of like summer vacation story great what a good use of my time if anyone's ever watched succession I'd say the best contemptuous narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman played by Karen Culkin it he's never have I seen that narcissistic contempt so consistently played by a character if anyone if you want to know what that looks like watch success is that the same thing as triangulation no so triangulation is creating chaos in environments so is that a fifth sign to look for a triangulation I would say that it's hard to look for triangulation you have to look for the soft signs of triangulation which be gossip talking badly about other people trying to get the goods on other people so they're always trying to like sort of talk to me about this person talk to me about that person and then you'll come to find out they're doing the same thing about you to someone else yeah and what is the fifth sign if it's not that sort of soft triangulation thing I would say then it is it's it's constantly having to put other people down to lift them up you know oh yeah he he thinks he got the right Tesla yeah that actually that's just sort of the Baseline model or like Ugh nobody stays on that side of that Island it's very it's it's putting other people down and it is contempt I would I would wrap up contempt in that narcissistic people are notoriously contemptuous it often comes out as snobbery but it can even come out even like like oh god dude like nobody's doing that and like make fun of someone and it can really it can hurt the other person and then what the narcissistic person will often do is they will then turn around say I was just making a joke so now if you react to it it's a joke but if you say something to them and you say it's just a joke they'll still rage you and I'll throw in a sixth sign or it could be 5A is um gaslighting they're they're constantly doubting reality I never said that I never did that um I didn't put that there um that never happened and then when you try to push back on that when you try to push back on that they'll say oh my God you're so sensitive or have you seen a shrink because people don't usually react the way you are so they leave you feeling as though you're impaired so I'd say that gaslighting is like I said 5A because I gave you contempt as five well okay so I don't know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now where I I have a pit in my stomach because I have at least one person very prominent person that I have in my mind in my life and I'm like check check check check check check check somebody's talking at the table they're rolling their eyes at other people somebody leaves the room they just immediately trash them as they leave what I want to know is we'll get into what to do but now that you're really kind of pulling apart the signs and we've learned that there are sort of two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type is made what is the impact if you have a parent that is like this like as an like if you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these or you're like oh my God I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist like a check check check how does that impact you now that you're an adult so it's not good that's the best answer I can give you it is not good so let's remember two things first of all I'm going to add a 5B to that list look for entitlement like that idea if they won't wait in line they're they're special they expect special treatment and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment that's another sign to look for but let's remember this about narcissism it's on a continuum not all narcissists are the same so a person who is dealing with more when we call a milder lighter narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe narcissistic person and I think that what that has sort of muddied the waters in this conversation because if a person dealing with a milder narcissist here's the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist or saying well maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist because I'm not living in Terror you know I'm not isolated from all my friends I still think that person dealing with a lighter narcissist is still feeling unseen unheard self-blaming and all of that it's just at a different level the reason I bring this up is with the parents right I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child um but at the more severe levels it's absolutely devastating what it does is it hijacks a child's sense of self identity autonomy they don't believe in themselves they believe that their needs are not in fact they've been shamed for their needs their entire life how you want something from me you know like that's what the parents attitude is maybe not that explicitly but people who grow up with narcissistic parents the vast majority become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self-worth who have very inaccurate self-appraisal usually in the wrong direction they do their devalue themselves entirely they don't trust themselves they down sell themselves they don't aspire to things that they actually could do because in some ways they've so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent but above all else they sort of lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it because in essence the parent really experienced a child as an extension of themselves what does that mean when the child's the extension of the parent so it means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent so if the child goes along everyone gets along if they're Mommy Mommy you're so pretty and we'll do anything you want and they eat the way the parent wants and they do the sport the parent wants and they excel at what the parent wants and they they're just become literally the parent and have no Identity or need outside of that everything's gonna be just fine but that's not how kids work the whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous and once that happens the parent is not interested in that and they don't like it so the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent they're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent wow let's talk a little bit about this sort of whiplash because you know when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent or spouse or boss it feels like I keep reading these comments from our audience about like on one hand you're like okay there's the Tantrum Behavior but you still feel responsible for them you still feel guilty when you're mad at them you still want to please them correct why because that that there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly and I want to credit him because I'm going to use his language he he talks about and it's going to use a technical term and I'm going to bring it down to what all of us how we'd make sense of it he calls having a narcissistic parent he calls it a loss of inter-subjectivity that's a real fancy way of saying it's my reality it's my way you are you're almost like a non-entity here you everyone exists to serve me I don't want you to have needs I don't want you to be something separate and a healthy parent the child will be sad and the parent will sort of even at the parents in a good mood the child will stop and be with their sad child and listen to them and empathize whereas a narcissistic parent will say um this is my birthday what is happening here like wait you're not get this kid away from me like how dare he cry on my birthday it's that kind of thing right so you the child is not allowed to have any sort of experience outside of that of the parents and then the CH and the parent really expresses the resentment at the child having needs thus the child internalizes a sense of Shame and even guilt over having needs so when they go into adulthood that shame and guilt persists because that that relationship a lot of therapists don't address it that explicitly it's not an easy cycle to end because remember unlike an adult narcissistic relationship the child needs the parent the child needs a parent for safety for shelter for food it's not like you can divorce a parent and say I'm going to start dating again and see if I could find someone better that is not how this works the child knows the parents the only game in town and identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship by that caregiving parental relationship so what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck don't need so much you're are not good enough because if you were good enough that parent would be regulated that parent would be happy so you're doing something wrong and the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them I wish you'd never been born you're so much trouble I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you child shouldn't be hearing that they'll shame a child's weight like oh goodness so somebody's eating too much it's because you're a bad reflection on the parent if you don't look the way the parent wants you're not doing what the parent wants oh my kid he wants to play a violin he won't even play sports all of those things are the child is supposed to be a functionary for the parent and so as that person goes into adulthood I would actually say it's almost a three-part Whiplash there is the sense of you know what the Tantrum is You See It Coming you then have the experience of is this my fault I need to calm them down I feel bad and then you have the third experience that you may still have some good moments with that parent that parent may be really smart really interesting really fun I mean in fact a lot of people say as I got older there were parts of my parent I enjoyed because I noticed there was something fun but I still felt the shaming and the blaming and it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents they like babies because babies are sort of like an accessory like a bag you can kind of take them around like you know and show them around town once they stop being baggable and carryable not so interesting but not so cute on social media then there's this whole long period where that child needs more than it can give back then the child gets into late adolescent in early adulthood the parents interested again they can go out to dinner with them they can go to a bar with them they can go on an interesting vacation with them they can bring them into the family business and so now they're interested in their kid and for some kids who desperately wanted that love they go all in on that they're like I'm gonna play tennis with my dad or I'm gonna I'm gonna help my mom in her business because no no now I'm gonna get I'm gonna get that love the love you wanted when you were four and you couldn't quite work in the family business so now that now now that try and that's where we get to this idea of the trauma Bond okay let's talk about this because I I I know that what's happening as you're listening to this is you're probably going ding ding ding ding ding and we're focusing on parents right now but we are going to get into romantic relationships but I think it's an important distinction that with the parent-child relationship you are there like you don't have an option and so what do you do now if you're sitting there listening to this and you're going oh my God that's me and I do keep jumping back into the fire it's like this are they super hostile or you know are they loving me did I get it right and now I'm getting affection or um are they trying to annihilate me because they're not getting what they need for me and I'm not behaving so as an as an adult now if you're going this is me what do you do so a couple of things all right number one I am not going to sugarcoat this and say there's like three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent this ain't Tick-Tock folks like this is hard work okay there is no three-step five-step ten step or even 172-step plan here okay I'm gonna take a deep breath because I I need everybody one of you to hear this is not Tick Tock okay you need to wake up and realize that first of all you're not changing the weather in Chicago and you're not going to change the personality type if your parent is a narcissist or you are in love with one okay it's okay so number one is the acknowledgment and this is the hardest part of all although you're this person's child narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects like my coffee maker or my tea maker this morning I made a cup of tea I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea when I want a cup of tea me and my tea maker interact the rest of the day don't think about it once at all at all why would I I don't need a cup of tea right and that's how a narcissistic person result thinks about other people do anything from you yeah do I need something from you oh yeah I do need something from you now you're my central Focus I'm thinking about only you but just like if that teammaker waddled over to me and said hey could you listen to me I'm like what you're a tea maker like go away this is not Beauty and the Beast appliances do not talk get the hell away from me you are a tea maker learn your place so for a narcissistic person we all serve a function for them whether it's your their lover whether you're their accountant whether you're their cleaner that's why narcissistic people always have like a team around them it's always about the team I'm like of course you have a team around you because everyone serves a function for you I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor because this is a revolutionary idea for me that a narcissistic person isn't ever thinking about you unless they need something exactly and yet if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a narcissist or you were raised by one you think about them all the time all the time all that you're ruminating them they're not thinking about you unless they need something from you or you're a blockade to something they need right like you're not signing the deal or you're because you're sick they can't go to something now they're thinking about you because they're mad at you right but it's it's so it's going back to your parents I'm like going back to that parenting issue so as you get into adulthood you are an object to them so like what can I do what can I this you're never going to be able to read their mind and give them everything they want there is not there you will never be able to none of us are mind readers you're never going to be able to fully anticipate and what's so sad is people who are all in with narcissistic parents or even narcissistic Partners will will literally try to devote their lives to anticipating the narcissistic person's every need so they can finally finally win them over that they could do it just right so that's not possible because none of us are mind readers remember so what do you do you give out you at that point you're like okay I I can only be the best person I can be live in a way that's in line with your own values right now this is why I'm saying that this is not an easy Tick Tock strategy because even as you do that even when the day comes you realize my parents never gonna end but my parent is never going to change none of this is my fault it's really just my genetic bad luck that this is the parent I pulled yeah um again I am not responsible for any of this I need to stop taking my bucket to an empty well they are never going to notice me they are never going to have empathy for me I cannot live my life as a sacrifice to them and forever keep trying to please them and not living my own true authentic path all of those things are important here's the part that I'm saying is never this is just the work is and then when you tell your parent no I'm not coming to dinner this Sunday I'm not I didn't feel good last month I'm taking a pass really you're not coming I was making that special thing and I really miss you and I'm thinking of you and and you know I'm getting older 95 90 of people are going to break under that one and they're going to show up and guess what's going to happen at that dinner again the criticism the humiliation the devaluation the invalidation right so I say to people you got two options here either be with the the guilt of saying no or go to the dinner with realistic expectations that when you and almost make it a game like a personal Bingo you know it's not quite a drinking game because if you took a shot every time they invalidated you'd be loaded before the main course came but if you I I literally have done this where I'm like okay I'm going to collect points at this dinner for every five invalidations I'm going to go like I'm gonna get a scoop of ice cream all right and then like and then it's like a little thing that pays out during the week like Tuesday I'm going to get ice cream and on Thursday I might get a massage like 15 invalidations is usually a massage for me so I'm like I'm objective yeah and I'm like I'm going in I'm like again do it again we're 13. I really want the massage so so let me ask you this question so should you ever confront a narcissist like somebody's going to come listen to this podcast be like all right that's it I'm calling Dad nope nope I can't if we if we only said one thing in this entire podcast episode is never ever call out a narcissist we would be giving the single most brilliant piece of advice why do you never call out a narcissist I should I'm going to temper that with it depends on what you want if you're doing this because you want to say it's like a gotcha moment haha I see you okay and they're gonna rage at you and they're going to scream at you and there might be a smear campaign now and they may be telling everybody out there that not only you want an ungrateful kid but you are the narcissist and you're the one who's harmful and everybody needs to keep their distance from you and I mean they will really do such a number on you that and they're not going to change so if all it is for you to say I see you I think the better way to do to play that is you see them now change your behavior stop being supply for them stop engaging with them stop taking the bait so are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is haven't heard from you in a long time you should not say you know the phone works both ways no way now if you know this person's narcissistic absolutely not so they say haven't heard from you in a long time and you'd say no you haven't oh and whoa and then where are they going to go with that because what you've done is you've taken away the volley they're playing tennis you need to play Solitaire can you give us some other role plays um so puts put another conversation starter out there for me um uh why don't you come to Thanksgiving and you and the year and the Assumption in this one is why don't you come to Thanksgiving because this person's committed fully tonight you got to come to me okay so you go this is where and I'm going to step back before I role play that I'm going to introduce the concept of True North okay that's true north okay true north is a big healing but we call Healing technique for folks or at least it's a more of a management technique than healing I should say True North is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for so maybe you're not going to Thanksgiving this year not only because you don't want to see them but it's your your your kids playing football that day all right and you do not want to miss a football game or you have you do actually have a big deadline at work the Monday after Thanksgiving and you want to get it done or you said tack with it this is the year we're actually going to go to You're gonna go camping or we're gonna go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving okay because that's what my family has always wanted to my you know whatever your friends you've decided to take a trip with your friends your true north is what is healthy for you okay so you've got to be clear on that it sounds like it's a balance between how much guilt can you tolerate right kind of it is it isn't because the guilt is people feel guilt people feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong so to which I'd say what did you do I give you a guilt if you committed a crime if you're guilt if you stole something you feel guilty if you cheated on someone so when people my clients tell me all the time I feel guilty I'm like tell me what you did wrong and that's when I get to pause they're like I want to go to Thanksgiving I'm like where's I'm sorry so help me understand where that's wrong well that's what they want I'm like I hear that but how is that wrong because the Axiom to that is not doing what they want is wrong okay everybody did you hear that this is a huge takeaway so if the lights are going off in your head and you're and you're starting to go wait a minute I definitely either had a parent that had some narcissistic personality or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this the reason why you feel guilty is because if you don't do what they say that's wrong correct that's exactly that's what you were trained to believe you are trained to believe that is and if you had a parent like that let's say this is even happening in your your committed relationship or your marriage then that's another time when you were you're almost indoctrinated into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong and I I like make the argument about it for me this is foundational like because what happens is the Tantrum throwing yes the shaming the gas I didn't say that like all the Adolescent tantrum Behavior adolescent toddler yeah is what actually has trained you to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong that's why you feel guilty that's why you feel good holy [ __ ] yeah wow how the hell do you get rid of that programming well first of first of all is one of the only paths forward to Healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable right right that's I don't like that answer and I know people don't like that and I'll tell you why everyone goes to the damn gym and they lift the weights and they do this and they're crossfitting that and and they're in pain do they want a hot ass or they want abs or they want arms they want to look good why are you willing to tolerate pain there and you're not willing to tolerate pain here Pain's pain folks oh okay I mean I'm I'm I I thought I had learned everything there was to learn about narcissism from you but I'm having major breakthroughs right now and insights uh so should authentic or empathetic people how do we protect ourselves from narcissists in life it's a tough one I I think that it's every so often Mel every so often and they're like that perfect seashell that's not cracked you find on the beach I find these people who've actually never encountered I find these people who have never encountered narcissism they had two loving parents they grew up in a happy home they love all their siblings they met someone in college they fell in love they both got good jobs I'm happy for them I'm happy for them and those people just like you talk about narcissism to them and I could be talking about like the you know like just some sort of like they think I have a tinfoil hat on they really do and I get it I get it because they have absolutely no schema for that but going back to the world of the authentic and the empathic that's also especially the authentic folks it's a rare group being off here's the thing about authenticity now and something we lose and I think it really gets brought into Stark relief when we're talking about narcissism people talk about authenticity like it's an easy thing the hardest thing in the world is to be authentic because to be authentic is to be unpopular to be authentic is to blaze your own trail even when other people are cluck clucking at you and stigmatizing you and looking giving you the side eye what are you doing like people don't do that you know you're supposed to do the sort of missionary position follow the rules kind of life and authentic people say no that's not who I am that's not what I'm about authentic people are very clear on their values what they stand for what matters for them and so I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt they'll feel tremendous guilt but they'll also feel committed to the potential within them and the people they care about and to say ultimately giving in to this person's abuse is not doing honestly me any favors for sure it's not doing my kids any favors it's not doing the people I care about any favors and it's actually not doing them any favors because it's reinforcing them in this sick cycle and I don't want to be part of this so we've got to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy authenticity authentic people actually often have smaller social networks than other people because they've called away all the dead weight they've cleared away all the branches that are that are dead like they said no I will not have people around me that are unhealthy that are invalidating I mean it's it's it is a brave stand and it's not an easy stand and some people say authentic people are selfish they're cold they're uppity they'll you know that they'll really paint them in like oh who do you think you are that you get to do that and all the authentic person is doing is trying to draw boundary against unhealthy people it is not easy to do because a lot of people feel like you gotta go you have you have to put up with the unhealthy people that's what we do families stick together and all that kind of stuff and to which I say no I mean why would we punish a person for again genetic bad luck for the rest of their lives is it normal for people to listen to you and start to worry am I a narcissist because I'm also sitting here going oh my God like do I I kind of sound like this sometimes like when I'm frustrated like is this me like now I'm starting to worry like did this get like uh is this my personality so here's the thing nut all of us all of us and sometimes even every day have moments when we're not graceful what we need to look at is how quickly and how authentically we make amends so if you snap at someone at work that you catch that and within you know very quickly say ah that was not okay I am I I take responsibility for that you you are not responsible for that I was having a bad day but that's not your problem and so I apologize that we when we when we do those things now no narcissistic person in the world is ever going to do that unless a publicist makes them or and then you can tell and then you can tell or or um because they're trying to save face or they'll say my favorite the the narcissistic apology which is I'm sorry you feel that way that's how narcissists apologize I'm sorry you feel that way oh I'm like oh hell no the minute I say I hear that I'm like this conversation's done and I don't storm off I usually I'm very you got to learn your sort of like nod Mona Lisa smile and say you know I gotta jump now some people say that's passive aggressive well there's no there's no path forward and if I'm not in the mood for a fight you'll say you know okay you know I gotta I gotta jump thanks again are we and then close off the conversation on whatever else needs to get done am I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver well it certainly sets you up with the vulnerability because it it almost normalizes some of it and it also takes away it it Robs a person from their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs well that's a perfect trap because now if you're not expressing your needs the narcissistic person you need isn't going to meet them anyhow you can easily get caught repeat that same trauma bonded dance of justifying this person's Behavior feeling that it's your fault like it really it sort of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner because it's familiar from childhood it's familiar and it's also a it becomes almost a psychologically a way of relating to the world in fact I've worked with more than a few survivors who said you know I met a healthy person they were kind and empathic and generous of spirit and believed in me and I convinced myself I was bored with them wow that's so true like it is true that there are lots of like we all have a friend or sibling you're like they're such a nice person all right did the person that you're supposed to be with is right in front of you and I tell them if you've come from come through a narcissistic family system and you meet someone and I had boring is not even the right word that you're not I hate to say it is that you're not triggered by them right but you feel like it's not it's not what you think love is supposed to be it's just exciting but think about what your life was as a child it was a roller coaster good days bad days I'm gonna win them over today's the day oh my gosh who's gonna come home today they have a candy bar in their briefcase for me it's a good day like that kind of up and down and and just anticipation almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by that roller coaster revive is what you've conflated with love so when a Survivor tells me I've met someone like I don't know it's not all this Zaza Zoo I'm like okay this might be a keeper let's just keep going sadly what I've witnessed Mel is that many people had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship and then after having to leave that and shut it down were they then able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity it breaks their hearts they think what would my life have been if this was the kind of person I had been with all along but it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that because nobody's teaching this in school people learn about this after they've been hurt by it well and you know the thing that you just said that I think is really important is whatever that roller coaster was that was your experience of love because you were a child that's what you know and so it makes a lot of sense to me so for those folks that are listening we gotta we got this question a ton what well first let me ask this so if you listen to the first episode or you already know that you grew up in a household with a narcissistic parent what are the few things that you need to do for your own healing so that you can be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy for you even though you've never been with somebody who is number one is being willing to see it clearly this is a painful it gets that painful awareness of oh my gosh my parent is if is is narcissistic my parent is antagonistic I have a parent who has no empathy because it almost is like leaning into this sort of a lot of people say who a narcissistic parents said I felt a certain Shame about my childhood like I knew something wasn't quite right here but I didn't know what it was no kid wants to be the odd kid out right nobody wants to be the kid who has the fighting parents or something's not quite right in their home and I think with people who grew up in those kinds of homes it was sort of like fake like to the world like maybe your friends would come over and your parent would actually be really Charming but then when you're everyone was out of the house your parent was a rager that kind of inconsistency really would leave people feeling like what is wrong with me so it becomes it really becomes doing it is about therapy or doing the Deep dive of of being willing to sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye no matter how painful it is that just because you came from a narcissistic family system it doesn't mean you're damaged it's not an indictment of you which unfortunately a lot of people feel and then to really take a good hard look at where has this hijacked you where has this robbed you of your autonomy of your identity of who you are like do the hard work some of that can even be done if not just through therapy through journaling just being aware of where that happened how you talk to yourself how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong how you're constantly putting yourself down self gaslighting yourself like oh I don't know what I'm talking about don't listen to me how many people do that reflexively that's a throwback to that childhood it's about getting your house in order before you start going out there and basically replicating those Cycles unfortunately that's not what people are taught to do and a lot of people in their early 20s don't have the time the volition or the money to go into therapy yeah are there personality types that are more prone to like having a narcissist come into their lives well I think that there's definitely the um a person who's who it comes from a narcissistic childhood there's a vulnerability there listen I'm going to say this malice to make this almost as an easy question to answer everyone is there's not a person out there who's not and I'll tell you why because at first blush narcissistic people are Charming charismatic curious confident they're they comforting even they feel like they'll they can take care of things so if these people were coming in on day one screaming at you and cursing at you probably not gonna be a date too there's a whole phenomenon of Love bombing well okay we'll get to love bombing in a minute but how the hell are you supposed to spot one then if you're dating you because this is where the trauma Bond becomes a problem so with the trauma Bond results in not just that alternation between good and bad but you justify the bad days right so oh dad just had a bad day at work I I um mommy's just really tired we're all pushing her to and then you internalize that blame Daddy had a bad day at work have to be good you know Mom Mom's just really tired I have to help so like they're trying to but they just you justify justify think of everyone in the narcissistic relationship he had a tough childhood has a competitive job the deals haven't been coming through the way they want they just want what's best for us I mean I I mean the the justifications go on forever but the justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place and that's another core pillar of that trauma Bond right so justify justify justify and so everyone's vulnerable because you meet someone and you're attracted to them and they are charming and interesting or whatever it is that appeals to you about them and they stay that way four weeks six weeks eight weeks three months sometimes now you're in you're falling in love with this person now this stuff starts to gurgle up those those proverbial red flags and what are a pervert real red flags when you're dating okay the red flags might be things like um getting Snappy when you give them a little bit of feedback um being really entitled when you go to a restaurant with them so watch how they treat later watch how they treat waiters watch how they treat anyone how they talk about other people um contemptuous dismissal how how do they get along with your friends um it may be that one of your friends the one friend that might have called them out on someone might be the one friend they say you know I don't think that friend's good for you kind of thing so those things will pop up but here's the thing Mel was talking with someone recently on my own podcast and in her situation she didn't have a single six years of marriage not one red flag I'm gonna make people listen to my podcast to hear what happened when that when the red flags came piling in but they've summoned six years she's like I am being honest with you and people who knew me would say the same thing there was no red flags so everyone I'm saying this for one reason why like why like a lot of people blame themselves they'll say that one day whether it's one year in two years in or ten years in the narcissism shows up there must have been red flags I didn't see them I must be an idiot this is my fault this is my fault for not seeing the red flags and I really want to tell everyone while some of them may uh be out there some of them may be humming at such a low level that you're not noticing them or they're so reminiscent of what you grew up with they're like oh my God this is nothing compared to my mother kind of thing but in the vast majority of cases the red flags were there and it's a combination of they were they either people didn't know there were red flags people Justified them or people blame themselves immediately like I shouldn't have criticized their sweater you know even though it wasn't a criticism they quickly justify but everyone is vulnerable now are some people more vulnerable certainly people who grew up with a narcissistic parents are parents they're vulnerable people with histories of trauma who already are sort of might be sort of struck that can often result in self-devaluation and other phenomena that would lead a person less like you know less likely to call out the red flags people who um this is going to be a surprising when people come from very happy families with two loving parents and just happy happy those folks are vulnerable because they don't even they can't even believe this exists so when there's a red flag they'll often think like well we just loved each other through this stuff there ain't no loving anyone through a red flag so they might turn to that there are people who are going through periods of transition so like on the rebound people will sometimes meet narcissistic people when a person moves to a new city has moved to a new job has experienced a major loss these are people who are already more vulnerable and the idea that someone knew is coming into your life especially let's say new city oh wow this is great I'm meeting someone and you kind of go into the rom-com mindset rather than like this is moving a little bit quickly that kind of thing people who are in a rush are vulnerable people like I got my biological clock is ticking all my friends are getting married that kind of thing those are folks who may be vulnerable saying okay I'm just gonna have to settle here because I really want to be a parent and this is who's in front of me right now and I can't tell you how many people have gotten roped in narcissistic relationships because they felt a Time Clock ticking around marriage around settling down around having a child they they really felt like it's if I don't do this I don't want to end up like my friend who and ended up never meeting anyone and regrets that I tell you one thing they regret probably know that person is exactly and so all of these kinds of other sorts of vulnerability factors that a person can bring in can increase the vulnerability beyond what we all have and I think that the idea that all of us that that somebody's not vulnerable I mean again the unicorns out there are the people who really really get like almost see it right away listen I do this this is what I do I'm still I'm still still played people still come into my life I'm getting better at it but to get better at it Mel I almost had to become I feel at times there's a part of me that's become kind of closed off so is there one or two red flags that for you are just non-negotiable like the second you see that one you are like nope because when you talk about being closed off because you are extremely warm and extremely smart and extremely generous and so I'm just wondering because I think that what's scary about hearing all this is that by the time you kind of wake up and you're three months into something or three years into something and all the Bonds are there and the lease is signed and you're married or you have kids or now you've moved in together or now you're like got all the chemicals flooding your body because you're falling in love and you start to hear these red flags you know I never would have had the strength I think when I think most people like you know what I mean be like oh okay time to end this no no no most people don't and that's again it's important for people to hear that because a lot of people feel foolish why didn't I hear the red flags I knew it on my wedding day I knew it I felt it because when we you know again these stories are so easy to tell backwards but at that point it would have felt cataclysmic and in a way this was the only way you were going to truly get the lesson you know it's unfortunate and I you know the issue then becomes like when I meet somebody who's a little bit too Charming a little bit too charismatic I shut down well I'm like why what is this and and people are saying you're you're the only person I've ever met who walks away from charismatic people literally I've been at Gatherings and a person's just that person and I'll I'll i i people must think I have some sort of bowel disorder because I'm like I have to run to the restroom the number of times at a social event I'll say I have to run to the restroom be like what did she eat you know it's interesting that you say that because I recently had a couple things go down both in business and life that were just shocking betrayals lies stolen from all that kind of stuff that just knocked me over and when I look back through my life there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn like a moth to the flame to very charismatic funny kind of rebelie people and I get sucked right in and then I realized once I'm like kind of in the Inner Circle oh my God this person's unpredictable this person like trashes people that leave the room this person has major mood swings and then I literally go into a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not upset the person correct that that and that is actually that's actually a trauma response yeah twisting yourself into knots to not upset the person or even like you know like oh you're so great like the fawning response these are classic dramas and and it took a couple really painful experiences back to back to have me Look Backwards it was almost like life hit me with a sledgehammer yeah and that and I think that that's what it is too you know I you know I both worked in the media and you in a much more profound way than me but I have to say over the many years I've done this what I've always seen was the Charming charismatic grandiose people never ever ever followed through on their promises and and to much sometimes almost to my fine to my very real Financial harm and all of that and I thought and that happened in Academia that happened in other areas of my life and so I think for me those those things have become correlated in my mind big talker big promise big big big all that big talk it never comes to fruition and I got hurt by this so when we talk about classical conditioning it's like Pavlov's dogs right this elevating dog when they um when they they heard the bell for me it's Charming Charisma means you're you're about to you're about to either um betray me or or you're just full of BS and so that but a lot of harm had to come to me to learn that lesson and when I connected the dots to my own childhood and my own experience as I saw I could see how I got played and like I said now it comes off as a a little bit closed off I wouldn't be surprised if people would think that about me and I do think that this is though in order for all of us to become more narcissist resistant we need people around us that will back us up and where I'm really blessed at least professionally is a team that calls BS they'll read emails like nah no no yes no yes and then I'll go deeper in and sometimes I'm like yeah sure and they'll say listen it's your gig you call that one but we don't love this right and so it's in that sense did I hear that right in fact the other night I had had an experience that was really uncomfortable and it was and I was like was that uncomfortable and I remember my team like that sucked and I was like oh and I and it was so that you if you have the people around you who are actually able to to be authentic and and call out BS that's also another way you become more resistant to this nonsense versus almost like having siblings that bond together like healthy siblings yes healthy not siblings that throw you under the bus right and so and I think that because the problem is a lot of people are surrounded by enablers oh come on it kind of seems like a nice guy and he's cute and he's from the same place and he's you're my keys invalidating you I don't care how nobody's that cute uh-huh uh-huh I'm sorry as a mom now I'm like uh thinking about my daughters but so what is love bombing so love bombing is the it's the the sort of the it's where the charm and Charisma turn into Behavior it's the early phase of any narcissistic relationship we tend to only use this term for romantic relationships it can happen in friendships workplace you name it anywhere it is this intense and overwhelming I'm gonna call it a courtship where a person is it's almost an obsessive fascination with you they are is a person trying to win you over the classical kind of trophy love bombing is on your first day you go to the best restaurant in town then they get the concert tickets no one can get and on your third date you fly to Paris and and you dance till 6 a.m and on the beach and and it's so exciting and they make a scavenger hunt for you and they get you gifts and every Friday there's a dozen roses waiting for you that's love bombing it's fairy tale it's Larger than Life but it it I think if we only use that Trope It's Tricky yeah it's just because it's too simple afford to do that I'm like that's well like how do you do that on a blue collar budget I'll tell you how tell me how you take people to whatever is considered the best restaurant in you know to your budget like the person's still gonna think that's great they'll pack they'll say let's go on a drive to wherever the cool place to go on the drive is I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen in your life they'll buy things it might it's like the Whisk you off your feet I'm proving to you good night princess good morning I can't start my day without thinking about you and then there'll be subtle things like take a picture where you're at just want to see where you're at to me that's this person stalking you why do they need to know where you're at of course I am the anti-romance do not do not find me on Valentine's that's fine not like but not on the like second date right but it's a lot of that it's intense contact but love bombing just doesn't look like that love bombing may become really intense almost over sharing really early in the game like they're they're laying out like these this really deep profound true or untrue story about their past about their childhood about what they're feeling and for some people that's the play because they'll say oh my gosh this person's sharing so much they're so vulnerable and now you're kind of in because they've shared so much love bombing can be too much time together our first date lasted two weeks like do you even have a job like what could I make what kind of first date last two weeks so like when people say that stuff are like I knew right away I was like trauma Bond you know like a man minute people say that I know that sounds so cold but it's actually not it's it is this sort of people might say like when I first saw them I got was really attracted to them but not like I knew right away but the two week first date there's this intense intention they spend so much time together I canceled all my plans to be with them you know it was so their their lease came up and yeah we'd only been together a month but we decided to move in together fast fast fast fast fast the fastness is also a part of Love bombing it's an intensity it's what I call an intense indoctrination into another person they are winning you over when you're being love bombed you're so distracted by the sharing by the obsession by the texting by the emails by the gifts by the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags so what do you do if you're a friend because I think oftentimes you know if you see this happening to a friend or you as the friend on the outside start to have the red flags go up and you say something to your friend you know maybe you guys should take it take it a little easier or you know he I hear he wasn't that great with his last girlfriend or like you just tried like how do you approach it if you're the friend don't drop a dime on the other person because the minute you just drop it I heard they weren't great with their other person he's moving real fast this is it's a it's something we learned from doing treatment with substance users is do not make them defend their behavior and make don't make him defend the narcissist the minute you say he wasn't great with his his former partner yeah have you ever met his former partner and now they're defending them never do that you gotta find the back door so how do you find the back of a loved one you say how are you talking about your new relationship how are you feeling how are you doing and they'll tell you the story wow that's a lot happening how do you feel about that you might be more likely for them to say yeah you know it is a lot like I'm trying to go with it because I've always felt like I don't deserve a fairy tale now I'm getting the fairy tale and say but it feels very talish about that too you're trying to get them to talk without getting them to defend the narcissistic person listen I'm basically trying right now to train people to use therapy tricks here right right but that's really what it is because I think we're so quick to say I don't like them the first thing they're going to do is defend them you've got to get them to talk about the relationship so they start spilling on like oh I don't know about this what do you mean you don't know about this and let them talk and say well if you're feeling like that do you think there's you know like do you feel okay maybe I don't know like take a step back like you you can do that because it sounds like this person cares about you so much and I mean that's that's a little manipulative but if you're trying to say something yeah to try all the tricks but what you're trying to do is give them permission maybe to slow down to pull back or like saying he wants to move in right away and say um you love having your own place so how how do you feel about that get them to talk about the thing that they value which is the having their own place versus what kind of fool wants to move into your apartment in a month right right I got it that's very very clear so if you're spotting this just get them to talk open-ended questions do not say anything that makes them defend so interesting I can look backwards now and see as a parent several mistakes that I made because as parents too Mel we're so quick in there to want to protect our kids I think nowhere else do we see that reactive like bad bad bad and it's it's you know it's almost like you can feel the clenching in yourself of saying well talk to me about this friendship and inside you'll leave I hope you never talk to them again you know but you can't because everybody when they're ambivalent about something and we raise the thing that they're ambivalent about as being bad they're they're their reactive response is to defend that thing because they're ambivalent it makes a lot of sense you know it seems like you can't talk about narcissism particularly in the dating world without the term gaslighting coming up can you explain what gaslighting is right so gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse it's a form of manipulation but it's it's a it is a doubting of reality followed up with a making someone feel impaired and so it's not just lying right it's not like I didn't move the checkbook that's a lie okay they did move the checkbook it's not that never happened that's a lie it did all right so that up to the first part of gaslighting is lying it's the second part of it that makes it gaslighting which is the you say blue use a simple example did you move the checkbook I always keep it in this drawer like I no I didn't move the checkbook are you sure you didn't move the checklist always in this drawer you know what your memory has been going lately this isn't the first time and you know you've been so distracted and stressed in fact it's affecting our relationship like have you thought about talking to someone now it's become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of your mind but they actually did move the checkbook you know I had this situation I can't really go into it in great detail but dealing with a narcissist at a work relationship where I knew something was up I would say blah blah about the issue and they would lie and then they would point it back but you've been so busy correct I handled it correct over and over and then the more the closer I got to the truth the more I noticed this rage like this it's it's it's in in the narcissists that I now see that I have dealt with whether it's in work or in Life or relationships or friendships there's always this moment that I call that you know in the Bravo uh new Real Housewives of New Jersey that famous clip or that woman flips over the table yes yes rage yeah it's rage yeah that's a great narcissistic moment so narcissist narcissistic rage is a thing that was absolutely a thing it is a because it's a rage that's set off by their thin-skinned uh reactive sensitivity right something that does not require a table being flipped over I don't know that anything anyone could say to you would be a table being flipped over right I mean short of like I don't know I I killed your best friend I suppose I might flip a table over at that point but short of that no table flipping and table these very dramatic disregulated gestures and afterwards they'll soft pedal it or downplay it or give you a pseudo apology and then just do it again yeah wow are there other forms of gaslighting uh that might surprise us you know like yeah there's that sort of like lying and then flipping it back on you but are there other forms of gaslighting that that that surprise people you know in some ways there's there's other things that are gaslighty like a um like the silent treatment in a way can have a glass gaslighting feel because you start feeling like you're losing your mind you know so that's a great example of sort of a a gaslighted behavior at some level denial can have a gaslighting feel and again gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality and then telling you you're there's something wrong with you right so that's the sequence of it but it is a um but it can take these other kinds of you know these other sorts of um like can't you take a joke is a great example of gaslighting you're too sensitive yeah you're too sense that you can't you take a joke is a great example of they insult you all right you have a reaction to that like that was not okay it was in front of a group of people what were you thinking I didn't mean it though I didn't mean can't you take a joke so now you're this sort of hyper sensitized hyper-reactive person who can't take something that was allegedly a joke even though the tone or anything can't you take a joke and again I mean I I think Comics do this all the time I mean I don't know being a comedian relationships probably a tough because they're probably everything's a joke right so um but it's a uh that that's another great example something you don't realize it's a gaslighting okay so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going oh God and like I'm spotting narcissists everywhere so let's start to talk about what do you do what do you do um and let's start with the example of how do you break up with a narcissist not every narcissistic relationship ends keep this in mind I think that should it listen if I ran the world sure but I don't run the world and I also know that for some people they're saying you know what I'm not going to divorce my parent there's reasons of culture reasons of other people in my family that matter to me um my own sense of Duty and obligation responsibility I see them clearly now though and I'm going to interact with them differently but I'm not going to end all contact with them okay there are many people I'd say 50 of people in narcissistic marriages stay and long-term committed relationships stay and I understand that and I don't think that there should be a pressure to go because when there's that pressure to go what I see is a lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow even while they stay in it so by the person heal and grow you're talking about the person who's in the relationship because as we learned in the very beginning you can't change the weather in Chicago and you cannot change we're not changing the narcissists and and it's important for everybody to hear this because you're listening to the world's leading expert on this who has had a clinical practice who has been an academic who is sought after by everybody on this topic you have been in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking for help because it now serves them because the board of directors is now getting ready to fire them or their their spouse is ready to divorce them or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them they're they're I mean remember narcissistic people are very victimized if things aren't going their way everyone's out to get me I have a Target on my back which on Witch Hunt that kind of thing how come everyone's out to get me how come life's so unfair to me yep yep and if you are in a clinical setting and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated to try to change how much can they change it's a great question so I've worked with many clients like this you're going to get the best we can hope for is a little bit more accountability they'll still have rage but they might catch it and apologize a little bit more they are still going to roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone but they'll maybe do it less um they'll huff and puff when they're made to wait in the line at the airport but they won't scream at the gate agent um you get they can Sprint through some stuff you can get them to Sprint through some stuff but they're never going to be marathoners they're still going to drop the ball a lot I've worked with people who once they learned what it meant to stop being this way which meant empathy listening to people being present holding space for them being accountable for their bad behavior um uh not getting angry at people or sharing their feelings I had one person say to me this is what this is about and I said um yeah so Visa I want to break in therapy for a while and in that period of time he divorced his wife and broke up with his mistress and I said oh and he's like you know what and this is he said I don't want to hurt these people I really don't want to hurt people but I can see they're getting hurt and you've clearly pointed that out in here that I am hurting them because I would say that that's I mean how do you think they felt we did a lot of what's called mentalization work forcing the person to think about how do you think that other person feels and in a therapy room if they scream at me I'd be like bye ow you're not my client anymore so they um they he said I don't want to hurt them but I don't want to listen to them I'm not interested in their BS I'm not interested in their feelings like I could do for 10 minutes but this hours thing no I want to live in my own place and I don't miss sex so I found someone and I pay her every two weeks and she comes fine I don't want her to wake up next to me and sounds like a real peach okay but was I you know what I'd say kind of a peach I wasn't mad at him he his ex-wife can now go and find it's no longer Chase she may still wondering if you're the ex-wife because I think one of the other things that I've learned from you is that the damage that a narcissist does she's got to go do her work now I mean and what is that work that work is learning about narcissism understanding you're not to blame under it's almost like a person is going to be less frustrated by their car breaking down if they know how their car works right so now you're like oh this mechanic's taking advantage of me I'm like nah now you know how to change your own carburetor like I'm teaching you how to to fix this thing okay and the fix is not in them it's in you because remember you ain't changing the weather in Chicago changing weather in Chicago and and ultimately the person that you treated that would do these very intense visualization exercises to try to understand empathy the only thing that happened is that he gained the knowledge to go I'm not doing that and here's the thing though that to me is a form of empathy because I'll tell you this instead of saying well she needs to step up she needs to meet me where I'm at he's like I don't want to hurt these people and I am going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm going to sit here and listen to their BS feelings without rolling my eyes you're high so Dr Romney you have really helped me because there were kind of some major takeaways that I've learned from you one being that you don't change the weather in Chicago you're not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of one period second that narcissists are made during childhood they're not necessarily born that way they're not they're definitely not born that way the third thing is that if it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality they don't even know they're doing it it's not like it is a conscious Behavior it is so ingrained in in how they behave that it's a like a reaction to situation correct but this takes this is an important flip I need to make on that because people say well if they don't know then I can't be mad at them to which I say yes you can we recently had a YouTube video I think it's come out or it's coming out soon basically is that multiple things can be true and nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship this person had a tough childhood Yep this person invalidates me every day okay yup we have kids together yup they're not going to stop doing this yeah you see what I'm saying like yes all those things can be true at the same time what is the most important Truth for somebody that is listening right now who realizes oh my God I'm in a relationship with a narcissist what is the most important truth that you want that person to start to think about and embrace this is not your fault you're not responsible for somebody else's Behavior you're not I mean at some level maybe we could say that about our children's Behavior to a point but even if there's a point that that goes away right you are not responsible for well they're reacting to me no they're reacting and there's other ways to react so they could they could calmly say to you I I don't like how you're talking to me and I need a minute can teach them those things they can go to therapy and learn that but they feel entitled to their reactions they feel entitled to their rage this is how I react I this is who I am and that's the other thing you'll hear authentically this is who I am to which I want people to say then maybe that doesn't work for you and listen Mal there's many a person out there who waits till their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce yep wow you know the other thing that I learned from you today that was just a game changer was when you said you are trained to believe that doing something that a narcissist doesn't like is wrong right that's where the guilt from that's what comes from that you learned guilt because somebody made you believe that it's wrong to disappoint them correct correct and and because you learn that you learn that as a child that is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood and then you carry that into any relationship where there feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant and that's why people like this will repeat these Cycles at work repeat them in intimate relationships with your boss is narcissist like they're constantly raging at you they're you know they're they're unpredictable they take credit for everything how do you handle that situation here's the thing workplace situations are interesting because you know it's I understand people need jobs and some at times people say I am never going to find a job that pays me this much like I'm making and I'm my primary primary bread Breadwinner in my situation then we go back to that radical acceptance you are in a job where you're going to be raged at in the workplace I say to people you've got to document the hell out of this you got to make sure you don't take meetings alone you save every email you save every voicemail you save every text message because if you ever need to engage in any kind of HR or litigation you're going to need that it's impossible to push on workplace issues without that and even then workplace bullying isn't against the law it's not and so it's really really hard to do that much with it um when you say radical acceptance what exactly does that mean so you're in a situation because I saw this early in my career I was a lawyer I was a public defender first and then when we moved to Boston I worked in a large law firm and the amount of yelling that came out of Partners offices yep and the shaming and the like just demeaning way that people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway and it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot of money it's what I call the Golden Goose phenomenon and it's why in a workplace if you recognize the Golden Goose phenomenon as a play meaning that there's no way the people higher up in the leadership are going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too much money nobody kills the Golden Goose then you have to ask yourself where do I fit into this I mean in most cases Mel I had to say that the only part the only good ending to it either if you're lucky and this is luck when that narcissistic manager boss or person is removed usually because institutional organizational settings kind of stink from the head down like there's a culture that yeah it's very unlikely that that will happen but sometimes people get lucky in their One Division that happens but if that doesn't happen most people need to ultimately leave yes it can be a huge career change people will say I'm out I cannot work like this some people might modify what they do they'll say you know what I am going to not make I'm going to take a huge Financial Risk and I'm going to put out my legal shingle and I'm gonna open a small practice there's way too many companies and jobs out there to tolerate them I agree I agree and it's taking years off in fact workplace this kind of workplace antagonism is a unique kind of stress that has actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems and I think a lot of that is because for some reason workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up at night and I think it's because you come home you're exhausted and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like I can't what am I you know I'm gonna get in trouble tomorrow ruminate ruminate ruminate ruminate and that goes on day after day after day I mean these are bosses with no problem calling you know interrupting a person on their vacation saying get in here now and and um you're having to clean up their mistakes like you said they take credit for your work they Gaslight um these are environments of fear it's it's very triangulated where some people trying to get on the good side of the narcissistic person I mean it's chaos it's chaos and I have never seen anyone successfully pull it off you'll even see in some of the higher profile metoo narcissism scandals we've seen people are like I just want to work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's going to help my career but you know what you have to live with the moral injury for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine and you're not going to change the weather in Chicago you're not going to change the weather in Chicago and you're also going to have to live with this blood on your hands which is an act a different level that people in workplace settings will sometimes say say this is what I worked in what does that make me so I want to end with some tools that people can use so one of the ones that you talk about that whenever I share it I obviously credit you that people just love this and that's gray rock yeah so great rocking in that you know I can't even take credit from that gray rocking is something that's been around for a long time and gray rocking is gray rocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship narcissistic people love to fight because it makes you look crazy right if you're getting froth up now you're raging kind of like them and they're like oh you need to calm down that's a form of gaslighting too they get you worked up and then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged so the way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengage in the most absolutely you're not going no contact but you're saying yes no okay I didn't know that sure now now let me ask you a question about this because in our family somebody has had a situation where there was an X blowing up their phone and Snapchat rage rage rage rage rage which once I learned that this was happening um a lot of other young women chimed in oh well I've had somebody do that and you know it's been dismissed because they're drunk because they're this or because they're upset or because I'm the ex or because I'm dating somebody new and you know we're talking 75 texts over the course of one evening pick up your phone why aren't you I know you're ignoring yes that's abuse so when it comes to that do you you don't respond at all because aren't they looking for the response yes aren't they seeking the attention now you can see in a situation like this with gray rocking like you you're like okay I'm not responding to this kind of stuff the behavior is going to escalate for a while and that escalation scares people so the gray and gray rocking is it's if you're going to gray rock as an as in Pathway to an exit to what's ultimately called no contact which is a really really stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because their families are they they have to co-parent all those things you know whatever maybe full no contact is is when people do it they're like this is great like I never have to have anything to do with them again but it's not always possible so the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person if you can White Knuckle it for long enough how long it depends on the person this is an excellent excellent example for those of you that are in a contentious divorce for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues and so you have to negotiate it divorce drop-offs or x's and so pay attention to this because you are correct if you ignore them they explode because they want your attention right and so now they're going to escalate it to try to get it so now here's this is where it's a a friend and colleague of mine develop something called Yellow Rock Tina swithin who does amazing work in in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce she came up with a yellow Rock and the idea of Yellow Rock is not so much the yes no like you're almost like so dull but it's like yeah sure oh okay yeah great there's emotion there's lilts there might even be like oh you went there oh did you like that oh that that's that new grocery store right you're not talking about anything but Yellow Rock Isn't So dire now in your obsessive texting example that's a different kind of a situation because that's a case where you just don't respond correct and you save it all and if it continues like that you actually might even need to involve law enforce we involved uh Chris my husband yeah he sent a text back saying we'll involve law enforcement yeah exact it off so it worked yeah it works in many cases but in some cases it does not and it's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved you know so there it can't be 10 or 20 I mean it's such a vast number they're like oh so for me to be fully traumatized is the only reason only way law enforcement will respond and it's true those bars are set in a way that it's hard to intervene but in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the they're trying where were you on Saturday night what were you doing oh your friend coming over and say oh yeah everything's fine like you're it's very step for the like but for kids to see see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing that that devoid of emotion robotic feel is unsettling for kids it can be unsettling in the workplace so with yellow rocking I always say to people have a list of in inert innocuous topics to talk about the weather the freeway is going to be closed on Friday it's um you know it's can you believe it's only a month till this holiday like you you have those topics in your back pocket and then there can be a lot of that and once they start baiting then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them don't go deep and don't go deep means don't defend don't engage don't explain don't personalize oh that was an acronym everybody yeah deep don't defend don't explain don't engage engage don't personalize what is don't personalize me so can you give us an example so don't so a person's coming at you with like oh great great yeah I can see oh what is this one of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes like uh yeah your friend's like an idiot loser so sure yeah uh-huh well let's let's give let's give this person more money you know I don't even know why you're friends with these people like is that how pathetic the noise they come at you trying to isolate you right you don't defend your friends you don't say oh she means so well she's raised so much money for this community you don't explain what the charity does you don't engage in the back and forth and you don't make it about you this has nothing to do with you that has to do with their security their temperature their tantrum their insecurity they're being set off and you and you you oh this is where it's this is a hard one people say I told Mary I was going I rsvp'd I'm going to be going do you say I'm sorry no why would what did you do wrong because I grabbed condition too I don't know I if I girl if I could set up an app that could identify shocked me that every time a person says I'm sorry they did get like a little shock through their watch or that is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist I'm sorry no it's the worst thing you could say for yourself why are you apologizing we're back to the guild because I have been positioned to believe because if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want that I'm bad that's that's you that's a you thing that's your work because I'm going to Mary's fundraiser I'm going to marry fundraisers why should I say I'm sorry I rsvp'd four weeks ago I am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened I'm none of that you're just I rsvp'd a month ago I'm planning on going I'll be leaving at seven done you do it with a smile on your face I tell you I just sit here and think why on Earth would you put up with that in your life maybe the good days you know what I mean maybe and I'm like listen [ __ ] I make my own money and I'm gonna give it to whoever the [ __ ] I want it's the good days and the bad days because you actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night and and they had a bad day today and they're stressed out and they had a lot of childhood and relationships are hard and everything's compromised and they don't really mean it and blah blah blah blah blah blah so if you could break a get into the multiple truths break out oh yeah there's multiple positions I'm married to a person who's an [ __ ] yeah I was just going to say deeply insecure and reactive which is code for us see [ __ ] is the one tidy word that gets at that but I am married to a deeply insecure person who is a rager that is who I'm married to and say that sentence out loud it all relates to a concept called cognitive dissonance we don't like it when incompatible things are happening that's true so we to break the tension we justify that's true so it's like the truth that the the things that are true are I am married to somebody who's an insecure jerk right because of childhood drama whatever and and and rages I also have children with this person I also don't want to go through the nightmare of divorcing this person I'm gonna work on my own stuff right in order to have that cognitive psychological dissonance in order to figure out my own stuff but you can see after you do all that you know how people feel they feel sad they're like this is my life yes because once you actually wake up and do the work we want you to go to therapy so you become more confident and more self-aware that you actually do not deserve this because this is not your fault the weather in Chicago is something you can't change oh sneaky I like that I like that kind of person it's all about therapy is always about finding those back doors and you can't walk in the front door that's what we learned that in day one of therapy yeah that's amazing wow you are so smart you are so smart so one takeaway or like a cup what takeaways do you want uh people to like really talking to somebody who just had a wake-up call because we also learned that if you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality you're thinking that none of this applies to you but if you're uh listening and you're starting to think of people in your life whether it's at work or friendships or siblings or the person that you're in a relationship with or parents or grandparents what are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained um from this doctor you're not to blame for someone else's personality you can't change them um you have the right to your independent autonomous life separate from other people opinions feelings needs um and above all else I want to let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say well I gotta go I gotta leave this relationship and some people do they they end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent they um they may end a romantic relationship they may start doubting their own marriage they may even consider quitting a job or whatever but then they they start saying but I want to go back but I miss the person but I'm having second thoughts but we're getting back together but I showed up at the family wedding anyhow what I tell people is this isn't about an all or nothing and you will be pulled back because there's no talking your way out of a trauma Bond a trauma bond is something you feel some people will say the idea of no longer talking to my mom or no longer being this marriage I feel sick like I can't do this I literally feel sick inside inside of me so that's a real physical feeling and it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable we do get pulled back in we it's for me to keep saying to people this is not this this is not going to change and it is not your fault and it is all internal to them and this is what the apparatus looks like but even on those days when you feel sad because there's this is a landscape characterized by grief there's so this was my childhood I never got to have a real childhood I didn't ever let my dreams launch I got into a crappy marriage I may never have a normal adult relationship I screwed up my kids this is real grief there's no soft pedalings you don't get a do-over on this stuff and so for people some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime and it's not I'm I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy like and one day you'll never think about this again what I want to tell people is that one you're going to learn to coexist with that pain and you're slowly going to find your voice and it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury every even if you could fully do your physical therapy and heal every so often you're going to step on that leg the wrong way you're like ouch and you're reminded and it is a it doesn't all just go away you start learning the workarounds and you understand that there's going to be good days and bad days because I think setting an overly Sunny kind of a pathboard for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough feeling ashamed and so they can't even heal right there is no healing right this will take as long as it takes there will be good days and bad but if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back there actually is a path forward and survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things they they write amazing things they create they they there's a creativity and it's almost like a WTF of it all like all right you know at this point why not like I survived this mess why not and they'll do some really cool fun they'll blog they'll they'll self-publish books they'll start businesses they'll go back to school I remember one woman I worked with it she's like I went back to school I was 75 when I graduated but I finally finished College after being told I was in a [ __ ] a fool and ass for 50 years and she's like I'm not gonna work but I did it and the pride that was felt the Survivor stories are remarkable they're small they're big it's the person my favorite was the person who said she she her she was and may she's an amazing cook and a malignant narcissistic marriage many many years she baked his favorite cake and she um gave it to people who were homeless in her neighborhood and she's like eat this because I've never eaten this kind of cake and they loved it and so you know some people actually said I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out some people don't like to throw out food I get that um some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would have been their malignant narcissistic ex's birthday party and said I gotta put this behind me it the the this can take so many forms some people go back to school and become therapists some people become coaches about this Dr Romney is that like when you understand something and there is this intense fascination with narcissism and so many of us have experiences uh with it but when you understand it and when you have a few simple tools from an expert like you it does become an opportunity for for growth it becomes an opportunity for self-awareness for self-compassion that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed and you can't change what that other person is doing that multiple things can be true but the thing that we know is always true is that if you're willing to put in the work you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself because you can change the way that you show up you can change the boundaries that you have you can change the way that you internalize things or not yeah and people who are going through these relationships are sometimes thinking I almost don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to what I'm in in this relationship so it's almost it's a sense of okay maybe I'll just gonna I'm gonna I'm not gonna take care of me because me not taking care of me fits it's again that making it all fit I say find those ways because they're I call them these tiny acts of rebellion the way you squeeze in because if you exercise and they know about it like oh why are you wasting time you must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise but then you realize like oh I have 18 minutes before they get home and you jump on the treadmill you throw on the yoga channel on your whatever YouTube you watch and you you do it like you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do you every day you have a goal in each day for 365 days you do one thing towards the goal and maybe you finish that degree online and here's the win never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams never ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you and they will dismantle you and they will even try to get in the way of them the Rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing and once you've done it you've done it you don't even have to share it and what's really fun to watch is when the narcissists hear it from someone else like wow did you hear about that whole thing they set up and the prince was like why didn't you tell me and like ah it didn't seem like that big a deal and you just get it in there but never share your dreams with them wow I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience and it was a Women's Conference and this woman stood up and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online and that her husband wouldn't allow it no and I remember thinking how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life and you know the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion if you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple things that are true these tiny 18-minute moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel they are that allow you over time to escape because every time you do something that is for you first and you don't feel the need to share it or get permission and you keep showing up every day and you do that exercise or you do that meditation or you take that online class and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist if you start to exercise that muscle at some point you're going to wake up yes and you're going to realize oh my God I'm actually above ground and outside the jail why did I stay in there okay I'm not going to validate myself but I'm ready to make a big change now you you start to see I can do stuff you you by doing those tiny acts of rebellion there's something in you that gets awoke and you're like I can do stuff and maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that you meet other people you get validated in different ways you get the A on the paper and the professor says wow like why aren't you going to graduate school after all those years of being invalidated to have someone say here's something special about you just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life but that's only going to happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion and that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship this isn't about like storming out and like I'm leaving you but you can do all these little things because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people and whatever that might be it might be reading an entire set of literature might be learning another language you can do that on your own time too but whatever it looks like that's somehow getting that new skill actualizing that dream and not letting them know about it or harm it can it can awaken something in you the real you that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship if not physically definitely psychologically you know I just also like felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters and siblings and seeing other people that are in these situations validating somebody you know not being not doing the thing that I probably would have done in the past which is why don't you leave him like why don't you cut them off like just validating the small moves of Independence and Rebellion that somebody's making and being and uh being somebody who is an ally in that is a way that you can support someone another way you can do that is you can listen uh to to this podcast you can share this podcast uh you can listen to navigating narcissism you follow that podcast hey it's Mel thank you so much for checking this video out and if you like this one I have I have a feeling you're gonna like this one too I'll see you there

Channel: Mel Robbins

Views: 363,264

Keywords: Mel Robbins, Mel Robbins Motivation, Mel Robbins Advice, inspiration

Id: JHbE_wgErjI

Length: 120min 44sec (7244 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 27 2022