Uncovering Cultural Bias in the Arab World with Razan Niazi - Anything Everything Episode 10

pleased to introduce uh rzan with us on the podcast today rzan Nai uh on the anything everything podcast rzan welcome thank you for having me I'm so excited to be here uh so my name is rzan thank you I also have a podcast without sucar or I mean without suar without sugar it's a podcast made for people who need space to exist safely and to be able to discuss things openly so I'm a very direct no can we say no no okay thank you I'm not sure maybe no uh podcast thank you guys no no perfect thank you for coming on and then you know our topic today is around challenging and and maybe breaking cultural norms so we talked a little bit about this uh especially in the Arab world I think there's always an issue with how the world is changing and our inability sort of to to match or adapt right to to a changing World be it because of technology or you know social norms but there there is a we're facing a struggle right and it's it's between men and women and I think we can you know we can touch on thatth today how do you want to start exactly I'm thinking so many starting points there really are right uh and I think one of the the main things is because of we're going back to in terms of Technology right there's there's much more technology in the world now in in in our lives and one of the areas that we we see challenges are with traditional gender roles right in the Arab world again now with the region that we're in it's a very mixed Society so there's a there's a clash and there's a coming together of different cultures so with the gender roles it's difficult to sort of you have maybe on one side people that want to maintain certain things they don't like change they don't like uh things that they don't understand and they you know maybe hate it maybe just avoid it and then you have the people that are much more agile right maybe younger generation I think we we can say that like ourselves and younger they're more agile they they can sustain change they have room to change mentally and you know physically so the older you get your beliefs and cultural values get embedded I feel like more deeply and more they become more ingrained so it it becomes harder to change your view specifically towards things that you've believed your whole life so if there are certain gender roles that you believe in like a man should be like this a woman should be like this then that is it's going to be very hard to change the older you get if you spent your whole life believing it and I think um it's also survival thing like it's you know how we have in our society a lot of immigrants who leave Lebanon yeah they end up keeping or it's like a a time capsule of identity that they never evolved and then you see the Lebanese people in Lebanon have evolved or adopted new ideas and thinking and they're still stuck in what they traveled with so I feel like the more you get challenged from what we saw the more you get challenged the more you will hold on to your Bel get defensive almost I think so you're less prone or open to change yeah um I have an example actually but even though I don't know if we're still considered younger generation let's say we are no because this is too this is a very young exper example so my little brother who's 24 okay he's 10 years younger okay and his his best friend moved here and they're both as same University and everything uh they're working together my little brother has been used to duai cuz he came a few times the other one is a very religious very conservative person he could not adjust he could not adjust for the life of him he's 24 at the end of the day so he wouldn't go to places with the had alcohol um he was never exposed to it in Lebanon which is also that's a lot of work to not be exposed to that and he wanted to go back home and get him a new wife he did you know those people like when they have yes ex exactly a very fixed journey and it was very interesting cuz I thought they would be more open like Dubai is such a it opens your eyes to things cuz we don't live like this and you see things that you're not used to so what I saw is people who who remain that way and and get challenged a lot and leave and he left he actually got he actually got fired because he messed up in a consultancy job different story different day but um he just left and went back to Lebanon he could not handle Dubai and I feel like Dubai is one of those cities that you can't handle for some cultures you can't handle but the other part of the spectrum is what I saw is a lot of men especially Arabs get really challenged cuz they see what they've been told they can't have or they shouldn't have it's wrong and they end up with women that the their moms will never agree to waste three four years of their life and hers and then get lost and then maybe go back to what they were it's very interesting and I feel like Dubai specifically or something like Dubai because it's Arab and influen impacts the values a lot of people carry and I think they don't know what to do with that and I've seen it more in men than women I don't know how to explain it I don't know if you guys have seen it but I've seen men just struggle really hard with their values here I've seen that firsthand and it feels like in our I don't know what it is but there's something about the male culture that makes it I I I don't know how to explain it but it makes it very hard to try to overcome the the cultural expectations that are placed on you but at the same time when you're somewhere that becomes much more open and much more Progressive you start challenging that and there seems to be an internal struggle with people who end up challenging the culture that they're from and it it sometimes becomes kind of a crisis yes where you're doing something that your culture doesn't believe in so I'm going to I'm going to go into the example of that is more of religion so our culture is duw so we're a minority religion in in Lebanon and some in Syria the religious culture the way that it things happen and things work traditionally is that if you're Drews you get married to a Drews and your kids are Drew so the parents are they they're very into that sort of type of thinking so if the kid goes off and finds someone who isn't Drews and they fall in love with them it's very very hard for their parents to accept that fact now I'm lucky because my parents didn't care my mom was Christian my dad is Drew so that's fine but among among friends for example especially the ones that leave Lebanon they sometimes tend to find a nrw's partner and it makes it very very hard for their parents to accept it so there's that challenge and then I don't know what would happen later if they're going to go back but it it it forms it forms some kind of a crisis for sure I don't think we got we were equipped to deal with it yeah because you wouldn't expect that you're going to you know I didn't expect to live in Dubai I didn't expect for a while I didn't even expect to even live on my own for a bit which is culturally will never happen in my life yeah that's one of the other things as well but on your point it's definitely there's a difference between how men and women are treated with that aspect and because in a sense they're more protective of who Women Marry versus who men and that's it comes back to religious it's a probably religious uh view is it religious or more conservative but it's conservative because it's religious I don't here we mix culture and religion a lot I mean our in our cult we do we do certainly it's it's hard to like you know draw the line because religiously okay religiously as a woman you can't marry a non Muslim but as a man you can other other religions are the same right like Judaism Christianity to a certain extent yeah right like yeah so the man I think so I think the man can marry outside of the religion and the kids will stay so if the man is Christian and the wife is not the kids can stay Christian whereas the opposite I think religiously I don't I don't know no for us it's the same yeah that's the reason why we can't marry non Muslim because the kids will not be Muslim supposedly and uh you have the woman has to obey the man yeah so if he were to tell her that you can't practice your religion she has to listen to him I see those are the two reasons that we were given when we're learning all of this so that's the issue but you're right so the woman has to obey the man is that a religious thing or a cultural thing or both I religious religious that turned culturally wrong I think we messed up with a lot of understanding that okay how how explain that because the idea was I think the man was supposed to be the provider and the protector but that did not mean you needed to um take away rights from women it's not absolute it turned Absol we turned it into the Ma I'm going to say in Arabic we have this the main thing we have is and that can be open to a lot of interpretation but the way I think culturally was taken they're the sole owner of the woman legally culturally why is my little brother why doesn't in Saudi context or GCC context the little brother has so much power on me right and for a long time I needed a legal guardian for a long time you know what I mean so the way we took that instead of you are my provider my protector you became my owner I see so I think so it's a cultural misinterpretation what the religion intended 100% And I think it's just a matter of application because while you can have certain there are certain rules and I think this is where it comes down to it comes down to rules and then how they're applied now when they're applied like for like and this very same the way it was a thousand years ago 2,000 years ago I think that's what causes a problem because the world has changed the Dynamics have changed it's a globalized world as you were saying that people are mixing all the time when you stayed in your tribe or Village for your entire life it made sense that you're Maring your cousin or your cousin's cousin when you lived in Dubai it's a globalized city so yeah actually I reached a place uh before I got married to Ahmed uh I was like I I made peace with the idea that I would never get married because I thought I'm too I'm too Arab for non-arab okay and I'm too westernized for Arabs did I say right yeah nice does that make sense yeah you're caught in and uh because I would never change I was a girl who lived alone for a bit I travel I make my own money and that's I'm the first in the Gen my generation and my family to do that as a female to have my own career and it was very important to you yes I learned for the longest time that being female is weak in in direct L because I saw how my family and and my mom and my aunts were completely owned by men and if they it was a survival to be married now it's not survival to be married right it was like men provide kill women procreate and raise yeah but you need that yeah and then as it evolved you can't make money you'll never be independent right so I knew I needed to get the best education I could or whatever access I had which was limited I was even thankful that I could go to Le to Lebanon to stud where everyone in my school went to the US on scholarships fully paid scholarships and I could have gotten it but my dad was like no you're not going anywhere so fine and to get I I I graduated with distinction I did everything well I did I double major you know all of the just to get Asa to get out as soon as possible and to get a job that pays me okay as soon as possible yeah um Financial Independence was so important what gave you that drive even though culturally you were mentioning how it's like you felt like it was weak to be a woman what gave you the drive to try to break through that S I saw I saw my family my mom all the women in my family who were mistreated by their husbands including my dad which I talk about it openly in my podcast it wasn't a good marriage my parents were divorced I come from a family full of divorces because the men had too much power and the women didn't yeah and the women were all very ambitious and wanted to complete their education their dad's didn't their dad didn't let them so you can see the direct oh this is what happens you don't you're not independent a man will will will control you and I did not want that there was so much the recipe was there for not to work and you see it I was it was firsthand and back then a lot of men uh how do I say a lot of men hurt the woman by controlling her kids right there a big I'm sure you guys have heard in all of your societies I was I was an outcome of that my dad banned us from seeing our mom for so long yeah you know and I can see the pain you can see the hurt so you can see that control that the woman had nothing and legally she had no power either so I was like no that's that cannot be my life yeah so I uh graduated at everything got a job uh but unfortunately I was a caregiver to my dad so my life kind of put was put on hold for a few years until he passed away but then I became too powerful as a woman okay you know I had my own job luckily I was privileged enough to work in very good companies I had my own home I traveled I I took I was independent too powerful in the eyes of who my our culture and Men you know but why do you think there's resistance why do you think there's resistance sorry from who like for example for your dad to you know oppose the children being raised by the mom's way uh it's the way he controlled and impacted my mom but also religiously had all the power in in Saudi we follow a specific school of thought and when there's a divorce the father gets the kids yeah other schools of thought like Lon are different islamically so ours was was that the boys chooses by seven the girl doesn't have a choice that's interesting cuz in the western world and in a lot of countries it's the opposite the women has has the rights to the kids but yeah so it seems to be a very very paternal culture and Society in Saudi Arabia yeah a lot of not only Saudi it's lot of and the AR World especially back then in the '90s to 2000s it was very strong yeah I think it was one of the hardest years to be a woman I would say an Arab world yeah I think it's also because they just didn't conceive of you know the idea that the woman should work that's partially it they didn't think that okay maybe you know the woman can provide and and they opposed that it wasn't thought yeah it wasn't a thought but also so it just made sense that okay you know what who's going to provide the dad okay so just let's put them under the dad's you know Bill yeah and my mom didn't work them one one thing it's a bit of a tangent not quite but when I was applying for my my residency and for my wife's residency there's an occupation housewife yes but there isn't house husband yeah culture good observation yeah pure culture so that'll tell you like what the difference is and it's demeaning you know right for some just to put that that's your occupation like it's you know putting a label on it like that I think it's it's s it's a bit sad to say it that way because it's as reductionist as you were saying it's just oh you're just that and a lot of people look down on it you're just that you're not a productive member of of of society and it goes back to what we were saying the other day the provider bias yeah and also we don't celebrate what women are good naturally good for and we look down at it like being a housewife this is what everyone was it's my aunt my mom that's everyone and this is why men were capable to married men were capable to have to have it all who's building the family if it's not the the mother a man would never be asked are you if if they're getting if they're doing a new sorry if they're going on an interview they're never going to be asked oh are you married and are you planning to conceive yeah would be the woman will be asked and she might not get hired for it yeah so I know someone who just interviewed she was 3 four months pregnant she's not Arab but in Dubai and uh she was just asking about oh what's your HR policy for pregnancy you just you know let me know they're like oh no we have the 45 days and we're very strict with it and that was for her a big question mark and then they asked her oh why are you asking so much about it is it because you're trying to willing to conceive or yeah willing to conceive don't even think about having a child if you're starting a job with us yeah these things we hear a lot of times and I heard other people they're like yeah I wouldn't employ someone who just got married yeah and like uh a few like when another even if she's pregnant sorry even if while she's pregnant she she might not get hired especially if she's prant especially so you know uh man will never be asked that but he will have it all at the end of the day he would have the sea level job with three kids who are in amazing schools but a woman has to but they barely see their dad yes yeah yeah it's it's a strange one I think that we're behind the Western World in terms of equality and gender roles 100% but there definitely has been a bit of progression like you could see that there's Improvement in the way gender roles are treated what have you seen in the region I've seen more freedom for who for the woman okay to go wherever they want to to wear whatever they want to um I'm noticing more and more especially among the younger generation that they're hiring women as well as men in like managerial roles it's still nowhere near equal but it's getting a bit better which is a good sign cuz this kind of change I think is really hard to implement quickly right you need to change people's fundamental ways of thinking and biases and biases you're not it's not an easy challenge to to overcome and I think there's a lot of work that still needs to be done but I think there are steps towards Improvement however due to Arab culture I don't know how far it can get because even in the west today there's still not perfect equality no nowhere near perfect equality in terms of the gender roles true I think it's hard but it's also I think just to you look at it from the different point of view a little bit is that it take does take time while you see even like in the public sector you have a lot of roles that are now have been taken by you know women in in Saudi in the UAE for example these are great way these are great examples of what they're doing but yeah exactly like you need the Young Generation to bring that sort of enthusiasm and that energy yeah you it's not going to pick I think it's it's down to a little bit education as well is that you need people that are fresh and educated that have higher degrees you know that or higher education sorry that can assume these roles so it's a bit of that the parents to allow them to do that true you I agree with you you need to start seeing this but this is these are privileged people as well and sometimes there's a disconnect and I've seen it in Saudi and other places there's a disconnect between these people and the mass they're like oh will never be that it'll never happen like for example s you know when Saudi announced the driving for women 2017 maybe uh great great news everything but I know families who are seemingly Progressive and seeming and and wealthy and and everything they're like no my my wife SL sister SL whatever will'll never drive never happen and these are your Progressive people but maybe their grandkids will yeah their granddaughters will end up driving it started with something but there's a lot of that you have to break and I'm glad that the niche is growing you know it's not that only a few people who are we don't relate to anymore or resonate to are the educated I'm glad we're seeing more mass or more push and visibility is very important I think that's the only way to get through being parent showing empowerment allowing people to to to be more outspoken I think that's one of the the main ones as well just speaking more openly where where where did it so how how did it start like in terms of the peace where it's inequality I think it's important to note down historically how we got to that point right because right now there's a very strong movement towards women's empowerment in in the world which I 100% agree with I think women are just as capable as men to perform you know the jobs that require thinking obviously we can talk about the physical stuff and it's it's it's a different conversation societ has changed and economy has changed but previously the way the way it all started uh was that in the in historic times medicine was was very bad and when a woman got pregnant and gave birth she had to always be tending to the kids and the husband had to be the one that would go out and would work and would get M the and that goes back to probably even days when we were hunter gatherers right the women would be the caretakers the men would go out and do the hunting that's how it is it's not like that in the animal kingdom like for example Lions the women the the females are the hunters right so but that's how it was with humanity and it evolved to the point where there became the now because there isn't that expectation anymore on the woman to necessarily be the caretaker okay the women get pregnant and give birth but a lot of the times they have ambition and they they have desires to accomplish something and they have a certain goal that they want to get to right because they're human and humans generally are ambitious not all of them but a lot of them are that's so and that's the that's what we're trying to break I think as a society as a whole is that kind of thinking that's been that's been ingrained in us for the longest time yeah you were telling us about this like this provider bias you had an example on if as a woman how can you get I think from your expression there's something you disagree with with what I said yes so what is it I'm trying to think of if do I agree or not um I don't agree I mean I do to an extent but I think yeah the idea oh women women can work and ambition blah that exists but when you look around you gender Norms are very strong very very strong look at I'll give you a very small example when you see a couple with a child Arab yeah who's taking care of the child the woman yeah ask how many fathers change diapers especially diapers especially yeah yeah in the west a lot over here also new that's also new in the west probably it's newer yes it's actually new no no grand scheme of things look they definitely need to share but I think that like for example not not to you know defend these dads that you want to be lazy right or say it's your job which is you know I mean they say that today even the the Arab males that's that's kind of their thinking not not all of them I'm not going to generalize but a lot of them that's how they think I agree yes they do and it just for me maybe that's one of the reasons I still didn't even consider having kids until that bias is removed I don't think I want to have kids from your husband or from society actually I don't I mean he seems like he will be helping but and you never know what happens in reality and I don't know how I'm going to be as a mother if I were to but that's one of the things I was like I see this I'm like no so why do you have a big problem with that bias uh because it's a it's a woman's job I'm sorry if we're both working no it's our job if I'm not working I'll consider it wait wait if we're both working it's not my job only oh no it has has a husband and wife Affair and also the word and there's a lot of it's going viral the world I'm helping no you're not doing me a favor yeah this is your home you you know stop acting like I'm cleaning after you stop acting like you do nothing had look very it bothers me so much it's not only about taking care of the child like you see an Arab family where the mother is engaging with the kids or pacifying them not necessarily CH babies they're like 11 you know queens and the dad on his phone checking his phone that angers me it angers me so much because this is not equality because what if but here's here's a question what if the woman is happy doing that I'm playing devil's advocate here I'm not someone who woman no no one is happy to feel alone you know why a lot of there's a higher divorce rate right now especially led by women globally and there's a big number about women who are 30 and above they're more likely to have their own home and no children and no husband in the next 10 years it's a global study it's a Global Research okay because we don't need men to survive anymore I agree right so what what men are turning into is someone else I have to take care of without giving me back the emotional support and need is if I have to tell you to pick up something and delegate and I've had it from my husband we had this whole had this whole issue about it he's like keep just telling me what to do no why can't you see you have eyes why can't you see the dishes are not there I mean I'm I'm worried that she's going to start giving my wife ideas I'm joking don't her she's westernized she don't worry about it but you know what I mean we we what's the word we bubble wrapped them our Arab men so much of course as a as children and then allow them to help or lift a finger at home let's be honest yeah there's a very strong preference to the to the male child yes and very they're The Golden Child no matter what and the woman uh what I was saying last time is how many times have you heard your sister the mom saying to the sister or whoever we we we made sure that they don't see anything negative at all so how are they going to handle their wives and kids and whatnot yeah you know it's it's it's very infuriating to see that because yes we have main advances and women have ambition and I'm not making fun of you I'm making fun of the I'm not okay don't look at me like that he wants to kill me I'm not making fun of you but this is I'm really passionate about this I know I know I'm not but I said that with like I'm really like it's a baseline no no I'm saying I'm saying there's still a lot of progress to be made yeah do you disagree with that that word no I no but I think Sor I really didn't mean no but what part I'm still trying to figure out what part of what I said you disagree with because because it sounds so it glamorizes where we are and yeah women have ambition yeah so where's the area that really needs work that's the point the ambition part I mean yeah we all acknowledge no no we all acknowledge these things we all acknowledge and a woman wants to do things okay but then when things are real oh when you're getting pregnant when you're getting married if women achieve all of these things and they're not married and they're not pregnant something's always wrong Middle East women ask women that it's not just men ask I agree with you it's it's all of us all of us yeah yeah 100% it's a systemic issue when I was telling you I don't I don't think I gave up on getting married I felt like a failure for my own self you know because you are taught as a woman okay I think no I know what annoyed me cuz we our ambition was was what's the word was founded on being married Chosen and starting a family so even to change that programming for people my age and younger it's really really hard when I was a when we were when we were in school the only thing we talked about is getting married but you were never programmed like that you like you just went against the grain the whole time EV yeah because I couldn't handle it I was I was yeah do you think that other women are like many other women are like you no so how would you change I struggle with a lot of women I struggle with a lot of women some women find me too much or find to whatever you know aggressive but how how would you go about changing the way other women think because that's really important in order to progress It's hard to change people who don't want change right I give up it's the environment I think the environment and I'm trying to not justify but trying to understand and empathize why it happens it's because when Society was very simple you would just go like okay what's everyone doing okay wants to stand it was a very simple lifestyle okay uh you you're you're born you get married you raise children and then that's it when Society evolved and changed and advanced in the past Century of of course like things are going to change and there are clashes I think we we get that your point I I want to tie this a little bit around the emotional intelligence angle is that part of it as well as men's inability maybe to communicate well um understand and express their emotions understand their their you know significant others better right so maybe that's an angle as well that we should touch on is that there there is lack of communication there's a misunderstanding of what you're feeling and what the other person's feeling they never needed to they never needed to right because it was just survival yeah especially yeah and especially AR fix survival suppression hey they never need to like I my brothers don't know how to communicate I have to be the mediator and that's another emotional load and emotional labor that you have to take on they because they can't show weakness yeah they can't show weakness they can't like I was talking through them I was like this is what he means this is what he means what are you going to say and then he talks to me and then I have talk to him you're the mediator like I can't do this I can't and I stepped back because they need to learn but it's very hard yeah to see it and um Can did they ever admit not knowing something no really I don't think so no there's an interesting example we spoke about this before Russell Peters in one of his stand-ups said that he realized one of the problems in Arab Society he said that men cannot say no I don't know yeah it's amazing if you ask them for directions and they don't know what like you stop in the street in Lebanon and you ask a man for Direction they give you wrong direction than saying I don't know I don't know what you're talking about if they don't know what you're saying they're just going to say yeah just go down take a left you go down take your left you're like I don't know where the hell have you guys ever been in that situation where you didn't say I don't know were you sorry you could no I I say I don't know a lot really I mean before yeah I'll admit there are times you know when I was younger for sure what was what was going through your head if remember it's some bias it's some in inherent you know belief that uh I should know it's kind of like it's better to be kind of right than be wrong which is a very bad thing you know you have to and then we spoke about this a little bit that no you mean it's better to be wrong than to not know uh that's how that's how a lot of Arabs think it's better to be wrong than to not know than to not know okay yeah better be wrong to not know but what was what were the repercussions in your head of not knowing like have you seen other people get in trouble I think it's just insecurity it's just insecurity and thinking that oh I I should know everything or I should know you know this stuff and then when you when you study like philosophy and you see like you know the very the most basic statement Socrates right I know that I know nothing so that more that you know that you don't know I think the big piece is culturally we are and this is a man thing all over the world but M also Arabs we we are raised to not show vulnerability and not knowing is a sign of vulnerability if you say you don't know something you're exposing a weakness chinking your armor then what made you be able to say I don't know is it something you saw home it's the way I was raised yeah that's my question yeah and I was raised by my mom mostly and she didn't raise me in the Arab male kind of way so I'm a very I'm generally more emotional than Arab males I'm much easily more vulnerable like I can get vulnerable without a problem I can say I don't know to things I don't have an attachment to my opinions like I can let go if I hear an opinion that I feel like okay that makes sense so an Arab you know we're very big on opinions we're very big on our opinions yeah yeah it's very interesting yeah yeah I think we need to part of it as well is like there are certain things that your opinion maybe doesn't really matter you know like if you if you're talking about yourself too much it's not about your opinion of yourself it's about how people judge you you know for for example like if someone says I'm humble that's meaningless it's meaningless if I say that it's a contradiction number one and number two you should judge me is that Arab you think or is that partially I think so you know what I mean but then is this because we because as Arab we we base our value a lot on extr fact yeah yeah external validators yeah and a lot because that's a survival we are uh what's the word we Collective we're Collective right so is that where it's coming from a little bit and and I think it depends right there are certain things that you sort of you need your own selft talk and there are other things you need feedback from the world you don't know how do you know if you're you know messing up if you don't get feedback um so that's kind of how I see it now again if we talk about like pure biology when when you say that you can't show vulnerability if you show vulnerability there's a weakness if you show weakness it can be exploited and and that's how you know it trickles or you build it up in your mind that I'm going to get exposed or I'm going to lose or I'm going to get attacked yeah like uh in I hope this is an a good historic example but in the show Game of Thrones there's a scene I don't know if you've seen it okay perfect in season one the the horse you know leader C Drogo falls off his horse oh yeah when he falls off his horse this tribesman are like he's not fit to rule us anymore he's done so so that that's that's the mindset back then like it it doesn't matter if he sneez if if be stung him you can't justify it you just go like that's it he's not strong enough but we're not there we're not we're not in those communities anymore we how do we change that how do you change it are you guys comfortable saying in front of your guy friends I don't know or in front of work work course of course I mean you have to adopt failure yeah yeah now yeah like obviously hopefully we've matured and you know we're older but failure is a is a necessary process but I think that's we're a bit different I think a lot of Arabs still struggle Arab men struggle saying I don't know do you see your friends um my close friends have the same or similar mindset to me again it's our environment right you're like you're the average of the five people you hang around with so in a sense but uh but with acquaintances yes seen it interesting or like uh family friends that I'm not very close to I've seen it and I I usually don't I I don't like engaging with with them just because we clash in the way we view the world and I feel like I know this is it's it's kind of almost self-fulfilling prophecy here but I'm I feel like my view of the world is more Progressive which means I find it hard relating to men who are very bound to their cultural tradition and their cultural values maybe that's wrong with me I don't know but that's the way I see it I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier that we have a hard time identifying with people who are originally or you know as we said we all had similar experience when we went studying Lebanon we could not assimilate very well and maybe that's one of them and I'm and I I realize how much I am very uncomfortable around like people who are not mixed very very uncomfortable like at one point there's nothing else to say there's nothing to add it's just your your view of the world is different what about people who are very traditionally so you did mention this briefly but if you're like can you be friends with a woman who has a very traditional Arab culture I have friends who are like that and do you feel like it's easy to talk and communicate with them depends it's very interesting but what I notice is they come to me to talk about things so I become an outlet which is great this is where I see I so you feel like they want to change I think so or at least they want to hear because not everyone is open to hear uh other opinions including ourselves we're just saying that so I've had conservative friends or more religious friends and they had to have they have to have a level of openness to understand my life as well my lifestyle cuz I CH I'm not I don't follow cultural yeah not typical um and it's a very interesting exchange for people who are open to it for other people no I was called names when I was younger yeah you know and you you were this whatever that mean you know oh yeah you know my family they're like oh if you do this is going to be bad on your reputation for your reputation I've heard these things yeah and as a woman women hear that a lot more than men do yeah yeah yeah but men uh especially in the GCC are very comfortable leading double lives you know very very comfortable leading double lives women it's a bit harder like that's why a lot of there's a lot of cheating there's a lot of and also we are Muslims are polygamous anyway so it's kind of easier culturally but women is very hard but a lot of men and this is why I found sad always talk about about it he was like he wanted to marry someone he could travel with and have and do whatever they want to do but a lot of men in Saudi don't they have the boys trip and they have the family trip those are two different people two different personalities two different activities okay so me and Ahmed are actually kind of a rare couple to do that and I've heard it from my other guy my my brother's friends who Saudi who married people that married women that their moms wanted not the women that they wanted miserable yeah okay miserable so yeah because they've they've led a LIF that's completely against that and they can't and they're so so much shame to tell the wife I want this I want to do this and it could be as small as a smoking aril shisha yeah shisha which is for us is very normal you know but for some people no it's shameful you can't be seen doing these things wow it's so interesting and so they the only way to um to live something fulfilling is by having two two different two different Lifestyles yeah um yeah yeah so wait I lost I think I went on a tangent but uh oh good so in conclusion I think it's a very for it's a very complex topic that we can't really do justice in the amount of time that we had and maybe even even if we had like four or five hours Lex fredman style we still have a lot to talk about yeah always maybe we should do that at some point yeah just a open open conversation but it was a really really good conversation I think there are some interesting viewpoints and asking you around like how women think in this part of the world and then you reciprocated you asked us how the men think and I think that's a very good way for us to as a as a society in the world to progress towards more equality and especially when it comes to like gender uh norms and and things like that so once you understand how we think and we understand how you think it'll be much more easier to empathize because yeah as as as we progress these things are are going to keep changing and they're going to stay fluid and it's important that the communication stays open I feel part of the bias is you know I'm glad that you said what you said because part of the bias is I think men some men or maybe in our region don't want to know or don't care to know how other women think how women think yeah and that comes from the arrogance and that I'm always right or I don't admit anything wrong so how what you're going to say doesn't matter you know exctly so I'm glad we're having this and um I had the point but I forgot Sam do you have any final thoughts just your point on on the empathy angle the way I think about it is that again because you know men and women are are to to a certain extent different while we try and empathize I think we know deep down we're never going to like I can't put myself in your shoes but it's about the attempt it's about trying yeah you know I think and I think both sides yes maybe women are bit more receptive to this than than men are as us saying from our society and that example I don't know how it is other other areas around the world but in our society we're kind of like it's just you know or like a bit of a headache b as you were saying we need an open communication we need better better understanding of the emotional intelligence right about understanding your emotions and and sharing with certain people it doesn't mean go and you know be an open uh book but you could I mean you could be could could you know but that's the topic maybe for that's that's the bias doesn't mean you go be an open book it's like this a bad thing good catch yeah um about that one as a woman and maybe representing some women can I I need to ask you to a favor and whoever is listening to your podcast um we need people like you or men like you who make other men accountable yeah you know um how do you want us to try them do whatever you want but make them Tri by fire and no just like question make them question you know me I'm glad you guys have friends who are similar but I think you know you know how people are sometimes they only listen from people they trust and maybe women are not the best source and they're going to be like oh just women are complaining again but when it comes from a man who they respect look up to befriend I think it'll be more more powerful and we need more men like you guys to speak that way to them you know so that's my I appreciate that no no 100% thank you I think it's also part just like uh respect women's opinions take take them on board right it's not just just listen to the men because then it kind of it might narrow FKS you know narrow the problem is that okay if these guys are doing it then it must be right but we could be wrong in certain view so listen to the other side as well yeah like work obviously for us yeah we'll going doing God's work don't worry I'll work don't worry so yeah this was super ENT entertaining and interesting thank you so much ran for joining us thank you thank youan thank you guys it was a great one yeah

Channel: The Anything Everything Podcast

Views: 201

Keywords: Arab culture and bias, What is cultural bias, Arab bias, Arab mindset, Thinking in arab world, Arab world views, Arab men bias, Womens rights

Id: vitcpcivz2o

Length: 41min 54sec (2514 seconds)

Published: Sun Dec 24 2023