Ultimate Weight Loss Secrets With Chef AJ

that's right I'm gonna ask you questions and just like an interrogation just like that you buttered me out because you brought these amazing gifts you know just the little latches right so this insane cake yeah my god what is in there so it's well good stuff it's obviously vegan it's it's German chocolate cake how it used to be the pastry chef at Sante for five years Brea so it even though it's looks decadent and it is but I don't use oil I don't use sugar at least not refined sugar it's all made with dates and there's no salt and it's pretty darn good at it looks pretty amazing yes I think you'll like it I want you to like it as much as you the thing that stood out for me rich most in your book that I remember the most is when you talked about when you detox and you ate your first blueberry and it was like the best blueberry ever right I hope this is like the best cake ever for you I think this might exceed you know that's amazing so I should refrigerate yeah at some point refrigerate it it'll be fine now then and then you also brought me this what is this that's my rock and nut crunch that was actually the first product I created out of culinary school and again it's it's just nuts seeds and fruit that's it huh it's amazing that's good it's good for athletes because I know athletes need more concentrated calories I'll be cheering them yeah it'll be very noisy actually thank you you're welcome so uh it's great to see you thank you we are back here again you were one of the original old guard on the podcast series episode 50 song wow yeah three or something like that's back in like 2013 you know a while back it was amazing thank you for having me back of course yeah I'm so excited to talk to you and I think you know the best way to kick it off is to kind of share a little bit about your story I mean I know we dug into that pretty deeply the first time you were on but the show has grown quite a bit yeah I'm sure there's a lot of people listening who were not aware that you were on the show that's right and your story's great I mean it's so empowering and inspirational and you know your transformation is really something else so so tell me about okay so where should I begin born in 1960 in Chicago to a morbidly obese mother and a normal weight father and you probably know that when you have your parents or obese or overweight you give more chance of becoming that and so I got fat when I was five years old and I lived in Chicago and I don't remember because I'm a little bit older than you may be a lot growing up well thank you I'll be 58 in three weeks but in the 1960s there weren't a lot of fat kids and so when people tell me no you can't understand what it's like to be fat because they see me as a slender person I was fat before it was socially acceptable to be fat nobody was fat there was one fat kid in every grade in 1960 to 1970 that was me so maybe I wasn't as fat by today's standards but when you're the fattest one you're still the fattest one and there's a lot of things that go on with that that are not comfortable growing up like for instance you can't buy your clothes at a regular store because they don't fit and so became fat at five but by eleven I was actually obese I weighed 160 pounds and I'm five six I don't love it at 11 but I wasn't five six then I wasn't even 5 feet then so I was obese and you know it's not fun and it doesn't matter how fat you are still it's not fun if you're fat and you're uncomfortable in your own body so I didn't realize that I was actually suffering from what I know today to be a food addiction and addiction to refined food specifically things like sugar and flour and I continued to become fatter and fatter I got into about the 200-pound range in my 20s but I was vegan this is the weird thing at the age of 17 when I was a freshman at the University of Pennsylvania I was studying to be a veterinarian and instead of became a vegetarian because the first day on the job I was handed a tank of live salamanders and the doctor said to cut their heads off I said why he goes well we're doing protein lens regeneration experiments in the amphibian and I just need their eyes well I was on scholarship and there's something about you see a guy in a white coat and I cut off one head and I was like terrible I started vomiting I went to the Student Health Center and I said I would never eat another animal again or harm one or wear one so became a vegan on September 1st 1977 yeah not cool back then yes that was four and I imagine not easy either no no we didn't even have powdered soymilk in 1977 now you can go to any town anywhere in the United States $0.99 store Walmart and you get plant milk in probably ten different varieties Alton soy and rice there was nothing well there wasn't nothing there was a whole natural food like fruits vegetables and whole grains and legumes and nuts and seeds but that's not what I ate I was a sugar addict I didn't know it at the time but looking back starting every day with a coke Slurpee with eight pumps of vanilla syrup and having a dr. pepper big gulp 48 ounces every day of lunch not exactly a health promoting diet so I did this every day till I was about 43 years old 26 years of my veganism was basically eating candies cakes cookies pies and ice cream and so of course I became course I became during that period of time were you trying to resolve this issue like were you going on diets and trying to restrict your calories and doing all the things that you know we do yeah so I tried this one diet in my teens which was called anorexia where I didn't eat and actually it is obstructed for a while it works beautifully it's not sustainable you know so I tried that in my teens and ended up hospitalized and so that wasn't good because let there were so many complications my hair fell out my nails you know I developed an enlarged liver that wasn't very fun but the thing about anorexia is the minute I started eating again I didn't start eating the way that you eat and I eat now I went back right away to the junk food and then I gained even more weight and actually what a lot of people don't know and they'll find out in my book is I actually attempted suicide because then I became bulimic and in a lot of ways that was worse than anorexia for me because I didn't like being anorexic but there was it wasn't that hard so in other words to be anorexic all I had to do was not eat but bulimia required extraordinary efforts because the binging and the purging and the laxatives use and the over-exercising bulimia was a 24-hour job so was anorexia but anorexia you're basically cold and tired you don't have any energy to do anything and so that's when I attempted suicide at the age of 19 and I never told anybody this not even my husband till about three years ago yeah I mean I read that in your book I was like wait I don't think I knew now I've KC we didn't talk about that last I'd never heard yeah it's not something was really comfortable talking about but then when I started when I spoke at the MacDougall conference he insisted I tell my life story and I didn't think it was fair to leave that out especially since coming out as a food addict or food addict in recovery now so many people have written me saying that they've contemplated suicide and attempted suicide because of their discordant relationship with food so I figure well I'll tell people yeah I was a dark period I mean yeah so walk me through that a little bit I mean you know what I mean I can't imagine the level of despair yeah yeah it's like I tried I remember the day at April 1st you know and I it's funny because I don't usually think about this but it's interesting because I I do personally believe in God ain't no a lot of people don't but that's the only explanation for why I'm alive because I didn't tell anybody I didn't even leave a note and I had stolen um I never had to talk about this my grandfather was a medical doctor and I stole medicine from his house my grandfather my grandmother was diabetic she was on a lot of stuff and I just just stole your work on stuff I just just all her my grandmother's pills I don't remember the names but my grandmother took a lot of pain medication so I know it was in that realm of pain medication and I never drank alcohol but I remember drinking a bunch of alcohol and taking a bunch of these pills and remember twas Passover and I didn't go because I had planned to kill myself that night and what was really interesting is my grandfather who I'm had stolen the pills from he showed up at my door he said he said I don't know why I've been directed to come here and and then you know then you know they take you in an ambulance and they pump your stomach and then opinioned up in a mental hospital which is like worse because that they don't that's you know and you have the meant it was not fun I'll tell you how old were you then I was um I was 20 yeah yeah so do you think that looking back on it now with some perspective that was it a tried and true suicide attempt not quite for hell no it was tried I mean it was for me I you know I was tried and true because I didn't tell anybody I didn't leave a note and I took a lot of the pills I mean I don't know if it would have worked but there was a lot you're still alert when your grandfather no I don't remember vaguely a shadow of him saying that you know I I just felt like I had to come here because you didn't show up to the Passover Seder and yeah that so I want to get into like how you recover from something like that and the path forward but but I don't want to move too far away from this subject of food addiction like I don't want to just brush over sure I think it's a super important topic that deserves a little bit more of a deep dive and I think there's a lot of confusion about it what does it actually mean is it even really a thing so describe to me your perspective on food it's true because it is not really a thing yet to many people because it's not in the DSM so a lot of doctors won't acknowledge it even some of the plant-based doctors so to me what food addiction means is refined food addiction you're not really addicted to food and eating if you don't eat you'll die but there are particular foods for specifically foods like sugar and flour that are very highly refined carbohydrates that certain people are very vulnerable to the effect of so that when we ingest them they have a more drug like behavior than food like behavior and as a recovering alcoholic I'm sure you understand that there are people out there that can drink alcohol in varying amounts and not become an alcoholic awesome right but there's certain people like you one drink one drunk and there's people in the world like my husband they can eat sugar and flour in almost any amount and be slender and healthy and not have cravings but there's other people that even a little bit like maybe if it's the fifth ingredient in a barbecue sauce will set us off and we'll set off the phenomenon known as craving where all we do is want more and more and more it sets off that insatiable desire for more yeah it's insidious for those that suffer from it and I I think you know I started doing a lot of deep thinking about addiction and and what it is specifically and what it's not and I really think that we need to have a broader conversation and expand the definition of what we mean when we talk about addiction it's not just drunks and people that can't keep a needle out of their arm you know I think on some level it's this on some level I think all of humanity suffers to some extent from some type of compulsive behavior or thought pattern or substance you know and food is certainly a part of that but it is a spectrum right and so where do you fall on that right room that's why it's so hard I think because it's a spectrum you know and because some people can have a little and some people there are people that identify with the title of food attic but maybe can have the barbecue sauce is a condiment with the fifth ingredient and because it exists on a continuum it's so hard to quantify words like with high blood pressure we can say if your blood pressure is this you're hypertensive and there's no real direct test for it yeah and and the substance is whether its food or or a drug is the catalyst the the the condition really has to do with your mental emotional and physiological state you know there's a certain person who's going to be sensitive like you said to sugar or alcohol or cocaine and it's going to activate them in a way that it isn't for somebody else but ultimately the addiction lies within the soul really I mean it's you're you're trying to alter your state your state of mind your physiological state and you're reaching out often you know mostly compulsively but often even unconsciously to medicate yourself in some way because you have some level of discomfort right and sugar hits the spot for a lot of people but it's about getting at the root of what is activating that and something that I thought was really cool and interesting about your book is that you get into the emotional trauma that you suffered as a young person and you know I think that there is a direct nexus between the trauma that we suffer as young people and how we kind of navigate the world as adults and I've explored this at length on the podcast I had gab or monta on the show he's all about that I love him and so to hear you speak to that I think is really powerful so walk me through kind of what that experience was like as a young person because you know you did have some challenge I I thank you for asking that I first I want to agree with what you say about how addiction often starts because of something like that trying to medicate feel better especially as a child when you're helpless you know you know you can't go to a bar and have a drink or things like that but I think that often it continues because now it is an addiction does that make sense so like when I was 43 years old and happily married I was still using not because of what happened to me when I was five but because I was really addicted there was so much energy behind that that that happened at that way right yeah so you know my father was psychotic he is not his fault he was kicked in the head by a horse when I was little like psychotic like like clinically like yes like he was and I didn't know him before the accident but the people that did like my grandmother said that that changed him now today he would have been in a neurologist there would have been MRIs but he my dad had a gash in his head from being kicked in the head by a horse and that changed his behavior so he was violent and he was abusive to pretty much everybody in my family he never physically hit me and my sister which was interesting but in a way I had survivor's guilt because he hit my brothers and my mom but the worst was watching him torture my dog and and that's it's interesting because I think the reason I became vegan so young is because I couldn't protect my dog from my dad and he would just he would just brutally beat I love my dogs I love dogs I saw a dog here I love dogs so much and that was my best friend Snoopy and Snoopy was an epileptic and he would have seizures and my dad would just beat my dog and I couldn't do anything about it and that was the worst thing is like you know my brothers and my brothers were older my mom was an adult not that it's good to watch humans being beat either but like when it's a defenseless animal like that and I hated him so much and like I wanted to kill him but like when you're five what do you do you know and so you know you have cookies do you think do you think your dad's rage or anger outbursts are I mean what was that an expression of I mean it was it just a neurological tweak because of the injury I I didn't know him before I mean okay I don't know if I should even say this because then people think I'm really crazy but I did contact a medium that could talk to him since yeah okay so I finally did a few years ago and part of it was his personality but the thing is the personality plus the injury just made a bad situation worse mm-hmm I know and what about your mom my mom was a helpless victim she was you know she had four kids so it's not like she didn't have a job so it's not like she could leave and I don't think there were shelters back then but finally she got the courage to leave they were married gosh a long time I think it was when I was 11 finally when he brutally attacked her she finally my grandparent my grandfather thank God for my grandfather finally got her to finally leave once and for all so yeah you know I grew up kind of scared because he was really mean and I was really little and I couldn't really do anything about it back then and you know there's nobody to talk to back then about it do you have a specific memory of turning to food to comfort you or is it just a blur of like you know it just was always there trying to think if there was an actual incident it kind of was always there because it was in the environment you know we had all the treats there so it that's a good question I'm gonna I'm gonna let it marinate because I right now but you grew up with Froot Loops and Oreo oh my god that stuff yeah and you know it's funny because my mom would pack my lunch I went to school and one of the things that one of the again you know I think about these things as traumatic memories but when I went to school there I sometimes go to this place called farmers market a third and Fairfax and they sell these vintage lunchboxes and all the kids had those but mine was gray like the construction workers the big gray lunchbox with the thermos and when I think back to the kind of food she fed me because obviously she was a food addict herself I mean I wouldn't just have like one little dessert like I would have liked the whole double thing of Suzie Q and then I would have a soda I would have like just it part of it was just that I wasn't being fed the right food either that I was fed a diet that was going to probably make me fat and sick unless my genetics were such that it wasn't so part of it was that let's see I just you know I remember I have to I had to crawl on this counter to get to the good stuff in the thing and I remember them you know the box cereals like Lucky Charms I remember picking out the charms I wouldn't eat the lucky because lucky was the was the oat bran thing that was terrible I just wanted the marshmallow all right so you're in you fifth sixth seventh grade you're the one overweight child in your class and I remember that too there was you know there was generally one kid who struggled with his weight or her weight now it's very different lots of kids it's more like most kids at some schools but that had to be I would imagine I don't want to project onto you but but I would imagine you know that's isolating yeah you know I was lucky that I was funny and I was I made up you know is the kind of thing we're like since I've done stand-up comedy of another Tonight Show one of the things they learn is is that you make fun of yourself before they make fun of you and so I was very funny I was I was intelligent I was always the teacher's pet I was very bright but I was really funny and so people still like me even though I was fat I mean the boys didn't like me I mean they liked me because I could do their homework but they didn't like me like like like they would like a normal girl so I didn't get a lot of teasing you know there was a little bit but it wasn't like the bullying that goes on today because I really was popular because I was funny and people like funny people you know it's so hard to imagine you like 200 pounds like I can't even I can't even answer it in ninety I think was 94 we have this huge earthquake in Los Angeles and that was in Sherman Oaks and I lost everything except for you know the clothes that I had and so all the pictures because the water pipe broke or going so I don't have pictures at that weight but if you go to my YouTube page chef AJ and watch me on The Tonight Show you'll see me at least at 180 but I I did say have a pair of shorts oh my god that I kissed aware so these were pretty big yeah those look like 42 yeah so so I do have that and then I have also pictures you know not quite 200 but you know most of them topped out at 164 right right right that's wild so all right so let's pick it back up from you know that after this suicide attempt I mean was that a like a moment of reckoning where you're like I got to figure this out you know what happened after no no it was dark I just with this shame and humiliation my brother's a psychiatrist I mean so it was like kind of brought a lot of shame to my family and you know I remember you know people saying to me why don't you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and I'm like you know it's like saying alcohol you know why don't you just stop drinking right it's not that easy if and so you know I was depressed and it was it was it was bad it was bad and how long did that you know was how long was I in the hospital for it I you know they put you if they put you in a locked ward of a mental hospital how long were you there I want to see like three months and whoa and it was it was it's crazy I mean because some of the people there I mean no disrespect to mentally ill people are actually crazy and so it's it's it's sort of like in prison like they mix like hardened criminals with with less hardened criminals they just put everybody together and there's something about when that door closes you know you can't get out and I remember my mom visiting me with my dog and it it's just you know it's almost like I didn't know you're gonna ask about this or I would have brushed up on my past cuz it's really something I don't think about but it was it was not a good period of months so did they have you on a battery of all kinds of crazy well they were you know it's they tried medicine see you know I'm I'm lucky then I'm a real sensitive and allergic person because none of them seem to work and none of them either I would throw up or get a rash so no I was they didn't put me on Thorazine thank goodness and were they just warehousing you or were you getting help like you know I thank you you know either you go to it you know you go to groups you know I mean that not again I don't want to sound like I'm belittling them but like you know they have like our therapy and music therapy and and psychodrama so I mean they don't if I wish I had remembered it more if I knew I was gonna be at a point in my life where I'd be able to tell the story I would have taken notes cuz it would have made a brilliant you know like comedic movie at some point you meet it but also you know yeah it is that thing like once you're in like you know a lot of people never make it out ya know it's it was it's really really scary it's it's it I don't wish it on anybody and maybe they're better now but but you want you want to hear a funny story so it later in life I became a respiratory therapist and it's a it's a it's like a like an allied health profession where we go around with Lake machines and give breathing treatments it's like in the hospital and I ended up working at the same hospital where I was locked up as a mental patient but the mental hospital is across the street and I never liked going there to give the breathing treatments because I thought I got what if they lock me up again because it is a big attack yeah so it's not like because most people up until now or you know nobody knew about this but I'm never going there to give a breathing treatment to a patient and then I saw a patient that was one of the staff members when I was hospitalized in other words the people that were our staff still they're just as crazy as the people they were trying to help and again I apologize if people are offended by crazy I mean it like in a more loving way I don't mean crazy but but the people that was my psychiatric aide when I was hospitalized was now an incoherent to psychiatric patient this the staff person became a patient and I was like oh my god I couldn't believe it it's like and these are the people that we're tending to us it's it's it's scary you know that's heavy it's very scary so so you get out of that then what happens oh my god so I went that I had to go back to live with my mom I couldn't go back to the University of Pennsylvania and you know she basically said you have to get a job and I am trying to remember what it's like my 20 it's like my 20s were a blur but eventually you know I did get a job I actually I got a fun job actually I became a dog walker believe it or not and I remember I was the dog walker from Michael J Fox and that was the funnest job I ever had he had good like the plum dog it's like it's like literally he was so generous and he had two beautiful golden retrievers named Jamie and Rosie that he wanted taken out for like several hours twice a day and at that time I was like the only only client I needed like that was the best job I ever had and so you were out here oh that was yeah I lived here I moved here in 1971 from Chicago right yeah gotcha alright so let's play this forward when when does it when's the final reckoning moment with weight like you know I know you have sure fits and starts right you're taking stabs at we have this under control wait walk me through that to the breaking so I like I said I'm I didn't have a big history of dieting or trying diets cuz I saw my mom fail at every diet I had the stab at anorexia from 14 to 19 which worked but was unsustainable I got married when I was not gonna say 95 35 in 1995 is when I got married and you know I didn't want to be a fat bride and as luck would have it fen phen had hit the market then it was very popular and wasn't quite really fat enough for the doctor said but because I had a knee injury from all the years of over-exercising he allowed me to have it and I was able to get my weight down to pretty close to what I am now well powerful stuff yeah I arrest you in a pill oh my god so exactly they both work but again they're both dangerous they're both life-threatening and neither of them are sustainable so I was so happy when I was on fen-phen because it allowed me to keep eating the crap that I was eating but it tricked my brain into thinking I was cool so I could eat just smaller amounts of crap which were you all jacked up to it actually had an antidepressant effect on me so it actually made me feel really good I felt fantastic on it things rolled off my back like water off a duck's back how long were you on it I was on it for probably six months oh that's that's pretty long I don't you get a tolerance though take more well yeah you do but here's what happened it got removed the FDA took it away so and I remember this shows waking it was to drugs right yeah it was fed to me infant flora mean that it separately works okay but together were like this magic bullet that was going to annihilate annihilate the obesity epidemic so what happened is people are getting heart lung damage like from it and so I remember going to the mailbox one day and there was a letter from the FDA and I'm like well I see FDA writing me you know well they had removed it from the market we were told to stop taking it and to go immediately to a cardiologist you have an echocardiogram so I was fine but I really still wanted the drug so I went online and I tried to buy it in other countries but I couldn't buy the potent combination I could only about the by I believe the phentermine illegally there's no Silk Road then didn't work so guess what within three months the weight came right back on I learned to nothing and so I just assumed that I was destined to be fat 160 165 I just figured that's my setpoint mom was fat my grandma was fat my great-grandma that's it so I'll just learn to accept their makeup genetically predetermined I figured that's it you know and I remember because as a vegan that you know I had started to teach cooking and I remember thinking you know like it was a little bit embarrassing because you think of people in the vegan world that are like influencers like you know if you got like Mary MacDougall she's very trim and you know and Esselstyn and I just figured you know it's not in my cards it's and so I was gonna do the best I couldn't but what was happening as I started teaching I remember teaching at Whole Foods Pasadena when they opened that big store and I was very popular as a culinary teacher I had the biggest class 77 people and I was doing a culinary class and remember this gentleman raises his hand you know I'm thinking is gonna ask about the garlic or the onion he said ago yeah he goes if the vegan diets so good why are you so fat and I felt like saying I don't know why he's such an [ __ ] but I did called it yeah and then people were saying once I started putting these little videos on YouTube people were saying the same thing it was generally men saying Matt and my husband would delete the comments and it didn't it didn't really hurt my feelings so much because they were right because I really didn't know why I was so fat I really liked then I found out and I went to a place culture north and January of 2011 what what motivated you to go there though yeah this is it this is interesting it wasn't because I was fat I find my first book on process I talk about my string of fetal deaths were the the babies weren't quite yet born but I had four miscarriages right one after the other yeah yeah and the first one was like almost a live birth and so that set me into a pretty bad depression this was in to thin the year 2000 February 1st 2000 was when the first baby died the one that was almost born and I was 40 years old and so it was tough it but it had four of these in a row and at the same time my mom and my dad and my dog died so it was like so I was I was like I developed something called panic disorder and I couldn't leave my house for a year I lost my job in my house cuz I kept having panic attacks and I wouldn't go on meds because I don't like meds I don't like the it's not I just didn't like the idea of meds especially psych meds well well you had I would imagine you associate that with being it's like that's a highway back yeah I don't want to be on psych meds you know and especially because again I'm vegan I keep thinking one vegan I should you know what diet should be enough I should be able to you know do this right the promise I had already had that major depressive episode you know in childhood which again sets you up for another one so I was depressed but now it wasn't just depression I was having panic attacks and I they're scary because you know I'd be walking my had two dogs at the time and I'd be walking them I'd get a panic attack and then I lose control of my arms and then the dogs would go and so it got so scary especially when I was driving that I just checked out and I just stayed home for nine months well shut down like a Nagori agoraphobia and so the problem was if you don't go to work for nine months you know they you don't make any money and so so what happened was is this is actually outlined on a show called The Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan is I found out that my dog Sparky at the time was able to predict if I was going to have a panic attack he just knew just kind of like my grandfather right right like he could sense it and so if it was coming on he could he just like he would stare at me he would pop me he would lick me he would bark and I didn't train him to do this and so I the promise he was a little bit dog aggressive and I found out there was a thing called a psychiatric service dog a service dog and what happened was is I he I went on the dog whisperer and and he became my service dog and I was able to re-enter the workforce using the service dog go back to work and I did start taking medication at the second I went on I went on the dog whisperer well so what happened was is okay sir I'm getting ahead of myself a lot of this I just called up c-czar I wish I could do that so what happened was is I saw on an the LA Times we had a paper we had a newspapers back then the Sunday Times I believe this would have been 2006 now or 2005 and I the show had only been on one season he wasn't it's huge of a star then as he is now because this was season casting for season two and I found out because my psychiatrist was willing to write me a letter because to have this dog because if I felt safe with him because I knew that if he if he could predict that I was gonna have a panic attack if I felt when coming on and I was driving I could pull over I could get to a safe space and so Cesar Millan helped me get him certified so that he would be suitable in public and it was it was great it was a wonderful heartwarming episode the thing is I did go on a small amount of medication at the urging of Believe It or Not a naturopathic doctor who said I can't help you you need these drugs so I went on an ant prescient called lexapro in 2011 10 milligrams not that much and it it it did stop me from having panic attacks it did work the thing was is it does it also has other effects and it just you don't have his joyous or a vibrant his life when you're on these medications you're just kind of like yeah you know so in a way it was good because here having panic attacks you know I remember one time the scariest panic attack was I was taking a bath and we had at that time a sunken tub and I got a panic attack in the bathtub and when I was getting panic attacks my arms and legs would go numb and I couldn't get out of the tub and then you just end up being naked and freezing it was really scary so so I went on this medicine but again I wasn't really having it like you say it was more of a flat effect I wasn't really having a joyous life and plus I didn't like the idea of being on medication you know and I tried to get off them by titrating the dose I went to these specialists I flew around the world and I could lower it to seven point five two five to two point five but the minute I went lower than two point five the panic attacks were coming back and I went back on so in about 2010 I heard about a book called the pleasure trap by dr. Lyle dr. Goldhamer my two mentors and now friends and I read the book it's a great book by the way about addiction and and more and I found out that dr. Goldhamer had this Center in Santa Rosa California and that if you fill out the form online you can have a free consult so I did that and I said listen I'm on this psychiatric medicine I'd really prefer not to be on it can you help me I was I was bad but that's not what wasn't about weight loss not yet but it's interesting because that opened the door because then I met the secret weapon him in dr. Lisle and he said yeah you're gonna come to the center I'm gonna put you on disability we're gonna fast you for six weeks and we'll get you off the meds well I get to true north Martin Luther King jr. birthday weekend of 2011 I go with a friend of mine Tim you know for support and my service dog Sparky and the first thing you do before you water fast to see one of the actual medical doctors he said can't fast on psych meds so couldn't fast they did a juice fast you know but the thing is is what happened as I met dr. Doug Lyall who is the best you should interview him he is so no I'd love to have him on I've heard him speak many times I love the book look has come out and you know the book is gonna be on audio now mm-hmm and guess who got to record it I don't know you yes I was I know that's like the Vig that's like the biggest feather in my cap that I was a full circle moment for you know what it is because it was like neither of them wanted to do it but the publisher needed the book out and because I I relative Lee understood the material they let me do it so it was really very nice this is 2011 yeah January 2011 that's not that long ago I thought like this went way back for you much further back well the trauma and trauma goes further back but this no I know yeah sort of turning point for no is much more recent than I recall I'm the nouveau Finn I've only been thin for about six years now so yeah so I met dr. Lisle who's who's fabulous and I loved his book in his lecture so I actually had a you know epic an individual appointment with him then and again we still hadn't talked about weight loss then it was just about can you help me with my panic disorder and he helped me more in that one session then all the doctors did my whole line went up there for the session or was that on the top there because he he works there he works there any works at the mcdougal program both in Santa Rosa and he gave me some really good techniques explain what panic disorder wasn't he really helped me so I still could not yet get off medication I tried and then it was now September of that year and what happened and this is interesting because I really believe that sometimes when things in life and you you might believe this - there's no real accidents it's sometimes when things are difficult and painful in the moment you look back and you go wow that was really a blessing so we're now talking in my life yeah right yeah so September of 2011 like I was really embarrassed that I was on psych meds and I didn't want anybody to know I felt that as a personal failure like that what's wrong with me that I have to take these drugs and what's wrong with me that I can't get off of them because they tell you they're not addictive but they are because you can't get off of them so in September of 2011 I got a job as chef AJ like doing a really cool presentation at a high-end kind of thing and I got there and is gonna be there for almost a week in New York and I forgot my meds and my doctor of course would have written a prescription for me and I could have got them but the people that I were staying with said oh no problem so and so their neighbor was a pharmacist just tell me what you need and we'll get it for you and I was too embarrassed as it turns out a month I rose on I really meds too so I just said well this well after not taking him for a week you go through huh yeah it's it's hot that's not the way to get off psych meds by the way it's sort of like if you ever very you were titrated down to a prism no I was back up to ten I was back up to ten if you ever saw those dolls they're like gray and you the rubber and you squeeze them in their eyes pop out and their ears pop out when you go off psych meds like that you actually it's almost like you feel your brain wiring and it's not a pleasant thing and like you have to kind of lay there in the dark and you it was a horrible horrible experience but I was so embarrassed I went through this and Doug Lyall dr. Lao really helped me through it he called my husband I was it was not pretty going through this detox but after I got through it just like anything else you know that withdrawal sucks so you but you were staying with people at the time being with people and that you didn't tell them that this was going on I was too embarrassed I was I was still able to do your event or I was I was able to do my job and I was able to do it well but the rest of the time I just kind of laid there like in a fetal position just feeling my brain just go crazy but I got through it and just the same thing whether it's drugs or alcohol or food food withdrawal is a [ __ ] but addiction I think is worse actually but when you get through it you know what it's like I mean have you ever met anybody and recovery from anything that ever said you know was much better back then no so it's so I was off it and it was great and by now I had some techniques some actual cognitive behavioral techniques that I learned from dr. Lisle about what to do when I had a panic attack work okay for example all the other doctors said oh you need to meditate you need to breathe well when you're in the throes of a panic attack you can't all of a sudden ask your body to relax so dr. Lai would say no what you do is you run in place you do jumping jacks you do panic disorders like there's a lion you need to run I was what they there's fight flight or freeze I was a freezer and dr. Lisle taught me no you have to run I go but what happens when I'm having you know I'm in the car because you just squeeze your arms like this with the steering wheel so I was able to use the techniques he taught me and what happened is do I still get panic attacks occasionally but the stakes have to be high now like like there was a pit bull in the neighborhood coming towards me I got a panic attack but a regular person might have to right Oh in a car accident a couple years ago I got a panic attack but I'm not having with the threat exactly but whereas before nothing would happen and so so yeah so so that's what happens so I was using dr. Lisle really for panic disorder and psychiatric medication withdrawal he told me to read a book called anatomy of an epidemic which explains that these medicines not only don't work most of the time but actually are harmful and that in trials clinical trials placebo was more effective and so if I had read that book I would not have chosen to go on meds but I was starting to work as chef AJ in the vegan world conference here and there dr. McDougall had had me a couple of times and in the the weekend after Thanksgiving 2011 dr. Lyle and I we'd become friendly we were on a job together and at a break I said to him I said Doug good to go home dog I said I know that you hear this all the time because now by then I was eating a really health promoting diet by the way I needed to backtrack a little bit from August 1st 2008 when I first heard dr. Esselstyn speak I stopped eating sugar oil and salt I was eating a health promoting diet and I wasn't eating the mass copious amounts of candies cakes cookies pies and ice creams I was able to make rich date-nut treats but I wasn't eating sugar oil salt but I was still 50 pounds heavier and I couldn't figure out why I know now why and it's in the book but I said to him I said Doug I said I swear to you I'm not cheating I'm eating a whole food diet I don't eat sugar oil salt why am I so fat and he basically sat me down and explained calorie density to me which is yeah and this has become your thing I mean I've seen you give your your keynote presentation many times and it's super powerful but it's also like oh yeah duh yeah I like it it's so Elementary in many ways but I think the concepts elude most people so so you know walk us through that because I think it's really important information right but no one had also sorry to but I think you know it helps with this confusion that you've lived through between what it means to eat a vegan diet and what it means to eat a whole food plant-based diet and what it means to eat like you know the ultimate sort of health promoting longevity promoting disease reversing type of diet because those are very different and I've been through them all you know so yes thank you a great question so I was eating a whole food plant-based diet without sugar oil salt I wasn't cheating but not having understood caloric density I was eating way too much of the whole plant foods that were calorically dense such as the nuts the seeds the avocados and the dried fruit and there's nothing wrong with those fruits and athletes such as yourself you need those calories but somebody that's a female and as dr. Goldhamer says females are energy conserving estrogen producing fat storage machines and somebody that was already fat didn't need so many calories from those calorically dense foods even though they they they have nutrients and they have fiber and when dr. Lisle explained to me what dr. mcdougal had been saying for 40 years but for some reason it eluded me until it was like face-to-face and he explained it to me the concept at least for me the fat you eat is the fat you wear and yes there are people that can eat more fat and not be fat but if you're fat it might not be you when I when I ate a more MacDougall type diet you know and and didn't add any fat like the weight just came off it was like was so weird because it wasn't even eating that many nuts I was weighing and measuring an ounce a day thinking I needed them or I would die without them and I remember it was so funny because for the dr. Lisle he's funny he tricks you into doing things he has you do with these experiments and so he said to me he goes you know just for a month I want you to not eat any added fat no not see you know just for a month I want you to do it and and go that's can I say [ __ ] or yes I say that's [ __ ] Doug I said that's not gonna work you know nuts are healthy you gotta have them all the doctors are saying you gotta have at least this much he said just do it for a month I said you know what you're so stupid okay I don't if I said stupid I said I said you're wrong I'm gonna do this for three months I'm not gonna start until January 2nd 2012 because that's when I get back from True North I worked there every Christmas as a guest chef and I want to do it for three months because I'm gonna do it till my birthday and show you that I'm not gonna lose any weight and then on my birthday I'm gonna have a rich date nut dessert and go no well guess what dr. Lyles always right and he was right and I was losing a pound a week doing that I couldn't believe how easy it was because now I was eating more food but calorically dilute food and in my opinion better food because I eating like lots of potatoes and sweet potatoes and rice and beans so I was filling up I was less hungry and eating bigger volumes of food that had less calories and it's like like you said it's so it's so obvious but it does elude people right so you mentioned the MacDougall type died for somebody who's listening who doesn't know who john mcdougall right and kind of what he stands for maybe it's worth seeing a little ditty cuz yet last time I was on I sang the gold hammer song so yeah oh I did I remember that you let me sing the gold hammer sighs yeah see it again John McDougall has a plan based on carbohydrates if you eat them you'll be trim and not have a sore thumb a John McDougall he's the man he's a smartest Plato eating starch will make you thin just eat a damn potato so did you write that yeah I didn't write the melody obviously it's Yankee Doodle but so so here's where things get get sticky for a lot of people you know and this comes up all the time in the podcast like right now you know there's no there's a lot of talk and energy behind this idea that carbohydrates are terrible you should be eating a low carb no carb potentially even ketosis high fat type diet which is in total you know juxtaposition contra position to where John McDougall is coming from who you know who's basically his basic principle is we're starch of wars and we should be eating these complex carbohydrates in natural food form yeah I agree with him you know I run a program in LA and actually online too called the ultimate weight loss program and I have people now that have lost 100 to 300 pounds and kept it off for like five years eating nothing but carbohydrates so to me and it not high in carbohydrates would be not fun it would be sad it would be deprivation and you know potatoes make you thin I mean didn't you interview or did you lose 120 pounds just eating potatoes I mean they really are the perfect food for health and weight loss you know according to something called the satiety index there they are the most satisfying food in the world but because they're filling their souls are also nutrient-dense absolutely have a lot more nutrients in them than people realize we sort of think of them as a junk food like oh it's a white food like it's just calories without any vitamins and minerals but it's actually a lot of good stuff in it but to be clear you know we need to kind of define our terms I mean when you say carbohydrate that doesn't mean you know what flour sugar alcohol like wheat pasta I don't exactly I mean whole unrefined complex carbohydrates whole grains in their whole form not processed into a flour legumes beans split peas lentils in their whole form cooked with water and potatoes sweet potatoes and winter squashes these are the foods that our ancestors ate throughout most of human history that are still eaten parts of the world today that are free of the diseases like obesity and heart disease that plague us I mean the Okinawans according to the Blue Zones are the longest live people in the world don't they eat something like over 70% of their calories from sweet potatoes so these are foods that make you thin the problem is as people are adding things like oil to them for french fries and and chips and that's the problem it's not the carbohydrate it's the fat the cheese the butter the oil that people add to it that make them fat and say so let's get back to this idea of caloric density you know when you give your talk you always have these the jars I almost brought them jars and you also have these charts where you show what a stomach looks like right here's the stomach with you know tons of vegetables and it's completely full you know more vegetables than you could possibly sit down and eat until you're completely stuffed and then the caloric equivalent of that is you know I don't know like you know an ounce of oil in your stomach yeah it's like it just looks like a tiny weight of your stomach maybe two and a half tablespoons yeah it's sinking it doesn't even show up it puts it into perspective in terms of calories so on the one hand you have these foods that are super high in fiber minerals vitamins phytonutrients micronutrients all those things that you need and want and that we're always trying to get and then on the other hand you have well it's there's a little bit's wrong with a little bit of all right but you see when you see that you realize like oh wow it's so you know a food like olive oil is so calorically dense and so nutrient poor that it seems harmless but when you kind of look at it through that lens you can kind of you have this sort of awakening moment where you're like oh now I get it well also it has no fiber that's the most important thing probably you know dr. Goldhamer always says that foods like sugar oil and salt they're not really food they're not found in nature in any concentrated form and they fool our brain satiety mechanisms and cause us to overeat exponentially the thing is is you don't sense any fullness from olive oil so if I were to make you a meal of like a gluten-free pasta brown rice pasta with steamed vegetables in an oil-free marinara you could have a very nice big serving of food for about 500 calories if you eat that same meal at a restaurant where they'll be about 500 calories from oil from the sauce from the pasta from the vegetables you don't experience any more fullness they've done studies that show that the extra calories from oil are insidious they slip under the radar undetected by the mechanisms of stretch nutrient and calorie receptors and so you know I remember when I stopped using oil in 2008 I didn't tell my husband because he didn't need to know I make his breakfast lunch I send his lunch to work I make his dinner so I stopped using it not because of caloric density because dr. Esselstyn said it creates heart disease diabetes and obesity and pretty my family was dying or dead from heart disease I figure well why would I do this and you don't miss it because it you can make food delicious without it what you can use the the nuts and seeds if you want so about seven months after stopping oil my husband had to go to a formal event and he's thin six feet 160 pounds and he doesn't normally were a belt but seven months after stopping oil we had to go to this event he went to put his belt on and now he can't attach it there's no more holes he goes oh oh I must have cancer I'm losing all this weight and he got on the scale he had lost like eight pounds without trying even knowing so he was being experimented on against his will so if somebody that doesn't want to lose weight that doesn't need to lose weight will lose weight that effortlessly just by stopping oil imagine what could happen if people actually did it on purpose to be fair there is a little bit of an adjustment if you're used to eating foods with tons of oil and you know like lots of sugar or you know salt and the like like you you do I don't know if I would call it a detox but you like go through a period where you would just just like you would when you're switching from milk to almond milk or something like that like what I found though and I'm not completely oil free you're not but like when I'm not working out a lot like if I'm not careful I'll put on weight and then I have to go and then I have to be more conscious and very consciously aware of those kinds of things then I and I am when I'm out there crushing it all the time so you know I'm very intimately familiar with this and I've seen how it works in my own life but I think it's you know it's important to just acknowledge like okay yeah it's gonna taste a little bit is it great is it be a little bit different but like honestly if you just go two weeks or you know yeah I don't know a week whatever everybody's probably a little bit different when you complete that cycle you know it's not really a detox but it's an adjustment then you land in a place where like oh I don't I don't know the difference I can't tell I don't I don't miss it anymore but you have you have to go through that you're right and most people just don't want to do it well they don't want to do it you're so right most people will not go through the pain of detoxification is a painful it's like okay I taste a little bit different maybe it doesn't taste quite as amazing as I'm used to but like you know is it really that big of a deal you're talking about a concept that dr. Goldhamer in this book the pleasure trap calls neurological adaptation neural adaptation and if this in and and that will happen the other thing people don't understand is the role of a neurotransmitter called dopamine in this equation dopamine is a trans neurotransmitter that's released when we have a pleasurable experience such as eating or having sex and all eating stimulates the production of dopamine in our brain even kale steamed kale at a hundred calories a pound stimulate the production of dopamine but the more calorically concentrated the calories the more dopamine is released well oil is the most caloric Li concentrated food on the planet it's 4000 calories per pound 40 times as calorically dense as kale and since most people aren't doing much in life to feel good like you and me like exercising regularly or doing volunteer work they're relying on these high-fat high-calorie foods to medicate to feel good so if you take away the most calorically dense food they're going to feel bad because they're not having their drug maybe that's why when you challenge the high fat camp they get so testy yeah I wanted to show you I didn't bring my dryer you're basically you're threatening to take away that dopamine absolutely absolutely you know I get people that come to me and they go oh I'm Greek I'm Italian I you know I olive oils in my blood and saw poor Mac up and I'll go here drink it they won't you'll vomit if you drink it it's because people are looking to food to medicate to celebrate and they're not like you say they're not dealing with what's really going on and that's really what it is is it's because I I would challenge you that I could make the food taste delicious without oil because I was a restaurant chef that didn't use oil I think some of my recipes are that good but what they're missing is the high hit of dopamine I sorry no what do you got there well it's just funny because I didn't bring my jars but yeah I brought you all these snacks so it's again I recently spoke at a veg fest and I had to take two planes on Southwest because there wasn't a direct flight so on the first leg of the flight they gave me this and on the second leg they gave me this now rich crackers cookies in peanut girl no it's this food that I can fit in the palm of my boat basically in the palm of my hands this is over a thousand calories mm-hmm what I eat for lunch which is usually like two pounds of potatoes or sweet potatoes baked into fries or roasted and a pound of broccoli has less calories than this like this huge plate of food and this is if people think nothing of eating this on their flight it's just a little snack yeah and it's probably thirty does I don't know a lot it's a lot of fat this is nothing yeah it's crazy and you can have so many fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes and rice and beans for the same amount in processed food right I you know people say to me all the time like aren't you just starving all the time are you guys massive amounts of foods you know like gigantic you know I'll eat like five potatoes and all you know just unbelievable I'm full all the time I know it's so fun and people if they until they really understand caloric density and actually implement it they don't realize that as slender people we can eat so much more food we can take in twice as much food but yet still consume half as many calories and again dr. rolls is the one that discovered this at Penn State she wrote a series of books on it I didn't I didn't discover color I mean I discovered it I didn't invent it I think I just honed it for people that especially want to be plant-based and what I like about your story is is that there's this evolution like you're you're like a chef in the in the plant-based world in the vegan world like you're doing cooking demonstrations at true north yes for you're actually fully understanding kind of what you talk about now like so this didn't happen overnight you are immersed in this subculture and yet still you weren't fully clicking with what needed to be done to get your own health under control I think dr. Goldhamer again him and dr. Lyle it's almost like a conspiracy a friendly when he tricked me because you know when I arrived at true north you know 50 pounds heavier he didn't say you know you're fat don't be you know don't be doing cooking demos but he said something like and I can't remember exactly but he said something like you know you're already very talented you're very talented chef he goes and we judge a chef's salad by how they can concentrate things like sugar fat and salt and he goes you know but if you got skinny you would rule the world he goes you're already a [ __ ] but if you were a skinny [ __ ] and so he did sort of like like the white washing of the fence with the Tom Sawyer you know remember like where they made it seem like a chore was fun and he made it seem like it was gonna be so great to be thinner for just in general and and that he could actually help me do it like he really gave me hope like that he could actually explain to me how to do it and in empowering you rather than shaming it exactly and and and I started those two guys are like my brothers man I mean like if I hadn't met them I don't know where my life would be how long were you a true north I was only there eight days the first time but I've since been back every year several times a year not as a patient but as a visiting chef right all right so a couple questions about this first of all for people that are listening true true north is the same facility that you saw in what the health if you watch that movie and get ready for another song sorry yeah are you gonna sing song and if you saw that movie you recall there's a couple case studies in the documentary where there's people that are on all kinds of crazy meds and they're overweight there was that person who could barely walk and you see kind of what happens after however long their tenure was there where they seem to be doing much better but that's the same place and it's also the home of Michael clapper recently left there for seven years and now he's he has he just retired from True North in December but there's other wonderful he's wonderful absolutely they have doctor Lim now who is the medical director of the mcdougal program there they have dr. Peter salt Anna they have doctors Solera so they have other wonderful medical doctors and naturopaths all right what one thing I'm interested in in what goes on there has to do with the fasting aspect I mean we're seeing emerging science that is speaking to the health benefits of intermittent fasting and and what can be achieved but there's also you know look this can go wrong also there's people that don't do this properly and they get sick or you know potentially suffer some nasty consequences so what is the what is the relationship of the fasting aspect to the rest of what goes on right so it is a medically supervised therapeutic water-only fasting center it's been there for over 32 years founded by dr. Alan Goldhamer and his wife dr. Jennifer Morano however not everybody that goes there fasts or people like me that medically cannot fast there are people there that don't want to fast me because it's too scary or too hard so they have to other levels of care one is that you can do a juice fast which I think could be safe for people sometimes to do at home I would never recommend people do a water fast without medical supervision because they check on you all the time they're taking your blood pressure they're checking your temperature they're checking your blood and your urine so I personally would not recommend people water fasting at home and they fast people up to 40 days believe it or not that's wild even slender people for certain medical conditions water only water only many people in the plant-based movement like dr. Esselstyn and dr. Campbell have actually gone there and fasted I remember dr. Campbell had that Agent Orange or something and TrueNorth actually helped his recovery so so we get we get a lot of famous people there not just in plant-based but like in the real celebrity world too because they help people with certain conditions like type-2 diabetes autoimmune disease heart disease in almost every condition get better and get better faster and doing like if the complete abstinence of food except for pure distilled water and complete rest and so that that's their highest level of care and that's why most people seek them out but then again not everybody can or will fast but even if you do fast you can't yeah eat at some point you have to go home eating so if you fast you have to have at least half that much time to repeat you can also go there as an unrestricted feeder which is the funnest and that's what I go which means all you do is eat the food three times a day buffets set up in caloric density all you can eat delicious food by Chef Bravo and chef Mauricio and people still get well people still get well just eating this SOS free low-fat whole food plant-based diet and they have lectures twice a day ten o'clock in two o'clock and when I'm there during Christmas three times a day sometimes they'll have a go every year I've been going every year for eight years and it's and I'm like that I'm like what do you still get out of it just no community you know I got having the childhood that I had holidays are very painful for me most of my family is dead and so it's like it's a place to go so I've been going there every year for Christmas anywhere from ten days to five weeks and we do the holidays there and we have camaraderie and game I'm like the social director so we have the best time and it's some people do fast at the holidays but most the people don't and we have special demos and Iron Chef competitions I get out of going just it's like going home it's like it's the home I ever had and it's it's it's a privilege and an honor to be able to do that so so a lot of people just do unrestricted feed or you know so funny because I remember even though it's been years since I've been on your podcast people found out about true north because I sang that song and people were a true north from hearing me on your podcast so the ripple effect is incredible they're so you you have these levels of care and what's interesting is a dr. Gould I don't probably get mad at me for saying this because he's always full but I had to attend a wedding in the Napa Valley and dr. Goldhamer charges less a day than any hotel so I just stayed there for three days with my husband and and used it as a hotel and got all my meals it's pet friendly I under certain circumstances yes so so people in dr. pam popper says she does the same thing because we're also gonna get food like that and people you get the education you get the camaraderie it's about a half a mile away from where dr. mcdougal runs his program his program doesn't run all year round like true north it's it's it's an incredible experience and if Minh wish for anyone that was struggling with any kind of lifestyle disease or weight issue if they could just experience the level of healing that goes on there it would make all the difference in the world to them mm-hmm but for somebody who who can't find their way there I mean you've worked with I don't know 2,000 people this points helping them right learn how to lose weight and keep it off and I kind of want to get into you know some of the strategies that you've employed like what works what doesn't and you explain all of this in the book yeah it's not it should be at there's no no no we're not doing the book we're just doing a cover right so so I mean that's a that's a that's a huge you know test group of people yeah you've worked with right so before we dig into the specifics cuz I want to talk about travel and expense I'm and all that kind of stuff but what have you learned that might be non-obvious to somebody listening about like what doesn't work and what works that that like you just wish people really I wish people would know if they're struggling and I think you probably know this is it if you're an addict of any kind moderation never works and they knew this isn't even mean yeah exactly I think it was at the 17th century the 18th century there was a saint named Saint Augustine who said that complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation and if people could understand that moderation really rarely works for anyone but it's never worked for an addict and it that is the hardest concept rich for people to grasp is the concept of abstinence because people don't like that concept it's scary it's gonna be difficult if they only knew that that's where the healing lies that's where that's where everything you ever wanted for your health your weight in your life lies in this concept but because there is so much confusion around certain foods because and again I love all the plant-based doctors but they're not food addicts they've never been over so when they say yeah a little salts okay a little sugars okay a little flowers okay it's okay for them but if you're the person that's overweight and struggling and having cravings it's not you so you have to know who you are mm-hmm yeah I think that that you're absolutely correct about that and I think what happens when you put that word abstinence in front of somebody their whole life forecasts in front of them and they're they're seeing themselves at a wedding you know somebody's getting married that they haven't even met yet you know like they're just future tripping on some situation that may not even occur and imagining well how am I ever gonna get through that I can't do it it's impossible they won't even try right that's why one day at a time yeah that's so that's what I'm getting at like the core principle is cheesy and as trite as it sounds of one one day at a time it's so powerful because when you think about it it's it's it's very Buddhist in its nature it's like what are you doing right now like you know okay eat the cupcake tomorrow total freedom permission to eat the cupcake tomorrow but you know what when your head hits the pillow tonight you will have followed you know AJ's protocol or whatever like just get through today make the best choices that you can and don't worry about what's gonna happen tomorrow it's so funny I remember one of my first clients and their struggle was cheese actually which is also another addictive substance it's an animal product a processed food kaizo morphine's opiate and the brain kind of thing and they said well I can't do this and I'm like well why they go well I can't be expected to go to France and not eat the cheese right it's just a story nobody they said well what are you going to France and they go well I'm not I go one have you ever been to France they go I have it like oh well do you have any plans like in the next year to go well no I I can't even afford to go to France but the point was as addicts you know addicts know you're gonna throw up that berry you're gonna throw up you're gonna think of every reason possible to protect that that you know to covet that behavior pattern and that's addiction in a nutshell like that's like okay well yeah only an addict would say that right exactly i if i ever have time to write another book it'll be about some of the excuses that I hear why people can't do this because that's what addicts do they make excuses and you know you can't have both excuses and results at the same time right yeah it's just or even you know take France out of it all together and it's just you have a cheese I can't I could never give up cheese and it's like okay well let's let's dissect that statement a little bit like what are you really saying like you're just you're holding on to an idea that doesn't serve you and you're scared you're scared of the alternative and what that might mean for you but you've actually never trodden that path yet so you actually really don't know and you're you're you've created this story and you've given it so much power but you've never actually tested the veracity of it you know and so it's about encouraging people and I think a big piece of that is is the empowerment thing you know like had he said something different to you about your weight it might have been you know a very different story for you right so the psychology of this is super important and how you communicate that's the heart piece that's why I refer everyone to dr. Lisle because I'm I'm more like dr. Goldhamer like this is the way it is just do it and you'll be fine and I in dr. yes I'd be you know that as an addict like it's not it's not the information that's not what catalyzes change you know it's so much more complicated and nuanced than that yeah I I think at the end of the day most addicts don't want to give up their drug you know of course and then it would yeah it's like there's us friends yeah exactly and I think often you have to hit rock bottom you know in my case I don't forgot to mention this this was also a subset of the meeting dr. Goldhamer when I broke my knee when I was 50 almost 50 years old in February of 2010 you know I was 165 pounds and I was too fat for crutches or at least I couldn't use crutches I didn't have the upper-body strength and I was in a wheelchair for three months and I couldn't take care of my daily needs I mean I couldn't go to the bathroom myself and it's very embarrassing and and I said to me and that was that was almost more of my rock bottom than even attempting suicide because to me having somebody help you go to the bathroom especially if that's your husband is the most humiliating thing in the world and I said that I am going to do something about this I do not want to be that person that has to have somebody wipe their ass that was just so degrading to me and luckily that I soon soon thereafter met dr. Oldham Rowan and oh the other thing is they wanted to do surgery and I'm afraid I'm deathly afraid of anesthesia I had almost died when I was 19 as an allergic reaction and so that was the other reason because pain is a huge motivator and Here I am working as a pastry chef you know you know eight hours a day and me would just swell up so there was a lot of forces that came together to get me where yeah two observations about that I mean the first thing is yes pain is a phenomenal motivator it's the only thing that's ever gotten me to change you know and and the tragedy in that of course is that you don't need to be in pain to make a change but it goes back to that intellectualization of everything like pain can be your best friend because it can be the spark that can ignite you to blaze a new path and so when I see somebody who's in pain or who's in suffering who's suffering your instinct as a human being as a compassionate person is to try to alleviate their pain right how can I make them feel better and more comfortable but you know I think that that often the more compassionate response to that is to say is to knotch is to is to refrain from that instinct and allow them to have that pain moment because that could be their divine moment let them know that you're there for them that you believe in them that that you see them but don't try to ease it for them because that is the crucible that can forge a brand new life it's hard to do that right I I have got you know dr. gold hammers voice in my head it's - it's he's very compelling like he says things with such force and assuredness and one of the things he says a lot you know people will ask him questions well you know how much how much meat can I have doc you know like they're they're morbidly obese on 20 medications you know how much meat can they have how much cheese how much wine you know he goes how fast do you want to be and so whenever I'm faced with like a choice that could lead me there I I literally hear him saying that you know how fat sick do I want to be well I don't want to be fat or sick anymore I've been both and I much prefer being slender and well it's so awesome I mean that's the other thing you know like a lot of people say well absence isn't sustainable right you have you ever heard that like what's just not sustainable you can't you know like how can you be expecting to go to a wedding and not drink alcohol or go you know here and not have that and maybe it isn't sustainable for some people but what I want people to know is the joy of living is sustainable and when you reverse a lifestyle disease no matter how difficult it was and when you are in recovery from an addictive substance the this self-esteem you feel joy you feel that's sustainable yeah and it builds you know and it gets better and better but it's it's experiential yeah you can't you know somebody has to has that have that experience for them so if no peel there's no surgery for fur right now we live in a culture that's all about that killed for every and you know God bless dr. Goldhamer for saying that we need a little truth talk here and that's not about like Oh take this or it's gonna be fine like no it's not gonna be fine actually you know you're gonna have to like get uncomfortable and you know what good things come from discomfort they're not just hand delivered to you the way that you want them to and the more people can just acclimate to that reality I think we'd better hope as a culture you know what I mean all right so let's get into some of the things you get into in the book like you know common subjects that come up excuses concerns the FAQ of being plant-based like what do I do when I travel or I have a dinner party and like it's too expensive and I'm gonna have to live my life in a kitchen it's way too complicated I don't understand all this so like can we demystify things you know I I come end the instant pot electric pressure cooker or any pressure cooker instant pots my favorite because the truth is is you always whenever I hear you speak you talked about how you used to have the window diet you know the drive-through it's true that it's never gonna be as cheap or easy as going through a drive-through I agree yes the thing is is it doesn't have to be as complicated as people are making it and the the truth is is if they if they realize what they're eating now let's say they're eating breakfast lunch and dinner for a month they're eating 30 breakfasts 30 lunches and 30 dinners and I would wager that no one listening is eating 30 different breakfasts every day even if they're eating a horrible diet in 30 different lunches in 30 different dinners people find their favorites and their family's favorites and they repeat them well why can't you do that with some plant-based healthy options that you'll like just as much you like a hamburger try my chip Oatley bean burger delicious all my recipes are tested on regular people you can find a few recipes that will become your favorites and repeat them the other thing is is if people would understand that the simpler you eat the easier this is and so whereas many people are looking more I need a recipe I need a recipe you need to learn to eat food and just having rice and beans over greens and salsa it's delicious that's I I know you love that meal yeah dr. Esselstyn loves that meal it's Adaline I teach in Mexico everybody that lives in Mexico loves that meal it's food think about food instead of recipes getting a pressure cooker can take away the argument of time and money because when you cook things like beans and grains from scratch they're practically free they're forty-nine cents a pound but it also takes less time you can cook beans on the stove it'll take two and a half hours pressure cooker 10 to 20 minutes so it's true you it's like learning a new language you have to learn a new set of skills but these are not that difficult to learn for most people and the other thing is is you can always get somebody to do it for you that's what dr. Lisle does he has a college or a high school student come and do all his prep and then he just takes it out of the fridge you know so there it's it's harder than people make it you know what I'm saying now of course I think the social aspect is always going to be the hardest especially if you're an extrovert if you're an outgoing person because if you're doing something different than everybody else that could cause you discomfort you know if you're the only non drinker in a roomful of drinkers you know people look at you like well what's the matter with you why don't you drink you know that kind of thing and so that's I think the hardest thing for sometimes people to navigate is the social aspect yeah for sure and that's the thing that leads people out the door right exactly I think that's the deal you know the traveling you know you travel full time I travel full time the traveling isn't that hard because we're eating food and guess what they have food in other countries they actually have food in airports I mean yeah so maybe I have to get white rice instead of brown rice but I've been on the road for seven years now to Mexico in Canada and in the Caribbean and I've always been able to find food and when I can't find food a little bit of me what happens with me is people are like you know like I'll be I'll fly to San Francisco or I'll fly to Phoenix or you know some flight that's like an hour two maybe even three hours and what did you would you eat in the airport would you eat in the plane I was like dude it's only like a couple hours like what are you gonna starve like I had a banana guys are people freak out they're like what am I gonna do like I'm in this too I'm like you're only in the tube for an hour and a half like it you know it's gonna be okay they're scared they'll get hungry that's the other great thing that you learn at you north is that hunger is not an emergency and when you even if you go there as an on faster because you have roommates unless you want to do a buyout you always have at least one roommate in a different room that'll but you share a suite when you see people there that are slender that are older than you that are fasting for forty days you realize you know what if I can fly it in New York to LA without eating the peanuts I'm not gonna die but for most people hunger is an emergency and I think part of it is because they're on such a toxic diet that it almost feels like an emergency because they need to get that next fix of sugar fat and salt mm-hmm yeah and those microbes and the guys handling the brain and and further enhancing that craving yeah I think you know beyond the the kind of scientific benefits of fasting I think what's important about that is it really rearranges your relationship with food in the sense that you begin to understand that this three meals a day thing like doesn't necessarily need to apply like we're you'll be fine you know whatever is going on in your thinking brain or whatever impulses are getting fired those signals don't necessarily need to be heated you're not gonna pass out I mean maybe some people do low blood sugar I don't mean to you know minimize those sorts of things but I think in general it's important for people to recognize that that the way that we've been doing it for a long time may not be the best way I think for some people it really is like like a detoxification reaction rich because if you think about that Americans eat over 92% of their calories from animal products and processed food they're eating a fibrous diet with no micronutrients and they're always going to be driven to overeat because they're really looking for food with nutrients and and so I think part of it really is physiological that how they're getting fat but they're starving right exactly and so that's what part of I think the discomfort is it's not emotional its physiological because they may have eaten 2,000 calories from a fast-food restaurant but their body is starving for nutrients for fiber and so they're always going to be looking for more food but then they keep making that same choice right alright so I got to be this lunch I got to go meet with these guys there's a big deal on the line they want to meet at a truth Chris's Steakhouse I have no say in this I'm trying really hard to be good but I need to make a good impression with these guys I need them to like me like I'm just gonna have to eat steak agent no steak houses are the most vegan friendly places to eat believe it or not I've often gotten healthier no I really I maybe I haven't been I couldn't really the last time I was in a steak house well I've been to Morton's because I which I don't know Ruth's Chris but I'm assuming I haven't seen the menu but in general steak houses can be the most vegan friendly places more so than vegans finally if you look at the sink side so first of all when you're invited anywhere that you have no control over look up the menu I mean because if it's a place that has more than I think two or three locations the menu will be online so first thing look at the menu navigate the menu if general steak houses have lots of sides of vegetables and most of the time the chef will either steam or or roast the vegetables for you without oil you do need to sometimes call up ahead to be sure the best time to call a restaurant is during that window where after the lunch runs lush lunch rush before the dinner rush and you know call them up and say look you know I'm sorry I don't mean to be difficult I've heard very good things about your restaurant I'm gonna be there on such-and-such a date but I'm on a very special diet doctor's orders you know blame it on dr. Esselstyn can't have a drop of oil and say is there anything you can do to accommodate me and instead of saying well you know don't say like well I'm a whole food plant-based vegan I can't eat sugar oil salt flour just say what you can eat you know and so a steak house generally can make you a baked potato now sometimes they put oil on it but you can ask them not to they can steam you some vegetables often they have salsa as a condiment so that's one trick you can do navigate the menu like I've had clients go to restaurants and they go there's nothing I can't eat but then they realize hey you know what they had a spinach omelet so then they say hey I noticed you have a spinach omelet can you hold the eggs kind of like that check right all right so that's the logistical tack thanks but then we have to deal with the piece social aspect of okay so this is where everybody's going to be different and dr. Lisle has a beautiful lecture on his website esteemed dynamics comm called the perfect personality and it's going to depend on how agreeable or disagreeable the person is now I don't have a problem with that because I'm not gonna eat somebody doesn't want me to eat now that doesn't mean I'm gonna be rude or socially unacceptable but what I might do for example one of the strategies I might use if I'm in a corner I might say when I get there I might say oh it looks delicious I'm so sorry I had a late lunch and can I just get a cup of tea or I might say something I've used this a lot I say all guys I'm so sorry I'm having a colonoscopy tomorrow so I can't I mean I do that a lot or or I might say you know what oh my god I just came from the dentist with a root canal my mouth I mean there's ways you can do it without offending people for their choices right you know you can order it and then excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and come back and say oh my god I'm so sorry I just had the worst bout of diarrhea and vomiting I've been I mean it depends yes so you could tell a white lie wait you don't want to lie dr. Lisle has some interesting strategies yeah this is well which is to just present it in a very casual you know way did you say I don't know you know I'm trying this thing I'm trying to do this thing I know it's crazy probably not gonna work yeah you know it's it's doing okay but like just deflate it don't you like oh well I'm doing this and this is the way you you know whatever like just try to be as casual and lanky and perhaps self-deprecating scene in that regard and that and that really just diffuses everything I've never had a problem I have I have battles in my mind about this like I it up to be this big thing but I've always been able I mean now it's you know it's like look everybody knows you don't have to tell white lies anymore everybody knows I don't really confront it I I did have to you know for a long time so my personal way of doing it is just to it's just to be super casual about it and if you are uncomfortable with that like you can say you can excuse yourself and say I'll be right back and going to the bathroom and find a waiter and go hey this is what I want to do can you do that though I'm like that way you're having that comment you're not drawing I think people do they don't want to draw that attention right so they don't want to be like that person who's like difficult yeah that everyone's gonna talk about after right the lunch or the dinner and just you know kind of care of it in a quiet way and then just be you have to say anything you don't owe anybody anything do you want to know a strategy that worked for a couple of my clients for whom you know a restaurant meal off plan could have been life or death we're not talking about somebody that's trying to lose 10 vanity pounds with somebody that's really in the throes of trying to reverse diabetes or lose a leg or go on dialysis literally or more right so this this brilliant lady what she did when she was in my program in the in person program she had to entertain clients for lunch and she worked near La Cienega restaurant row so they always were places like Lowery's and whatever but she really took her recovery from food addiction and diabetes very seriously so what she did is she called up the restaurant ahead of time because you you know where you're going usually they don't you don't just get some mysterious text right like you don't last night so they knew who or that she was meeting the client she called up the restaurant the night before and said listen I'm on a very special diet doctor's orders would you mind if I brought my food into you I'd come early you heat it up and played it and then charge me and the guy says lady we do that all the time and then she got what she could eat nobody knew nobody batted an eye she just said oh you know hey Frank I'll have the usual oh so she brought it ahead of time and she put it on the plate and they charged her for the least expensive entree uh-huh yeah that's interesting I haven't heard that one but that's good I mean that's there's some machinations and some time invested yeah gonna want to do that but I guess look if you're you're on your program and this is everything you and your life is on the line like that's it so let me ask you this as a recovering alcoholic would you then drink alcohol just to not make other people feel smarter right so so when you're newly sober I can tell you yeah within the first two weeks of trying to get sober I was already imagining you know this bachelor party that I had committed to going to there was no way I was gonna be able to go to Las Vegas for a weekend with my buddies and not drink and that terrified me so that's very real no and I'm not trying to be dismissive and now I could go anywhere and you know I have to maintain my program it's not like I I work at it right but you know I can go to those places as need be I don't seek them out but you know occasions arise where I'm in situations I'm not normally and I'm comfortable in my own skin but that is because I've put a huge amount of work yeah into that right to be able to have that gas in the tank and get through those opportunity situations where you know normally that would imperil me or somebody who's who has a very shaky foundation for their recovery I'm not trying to be dismissive what I'm trying to say and this is where the crux of this disease lies because most people don't take food addiction as seriously as alcohol or drug addiction no one would if people knew you were a recovering alcoholics different if they never met you but nobody knowing what they know would say to you at a family event or a bachelor party say hey rich you got to taste this margarita I made it just for you just a sip people wouldn't do that to you but with food addicts they feel like what's the harm one meal off plan and just like murder what right one drink one drunk you can live your life without alcohol or cocaine or cigarettes or you can't live your life without food and so knowing what I know now if I knew then I would have just been honest with the person and say listen this looks delicious and I'm so sorry I don't mean to be difficult but I am a food addict and and there's nothing I can have her so I'm gonna enjoy the company and have a cup of tea that's what I would do alright so your your kind of road to recovery you've got this you've premise this or you've kind of distilled this down to this idea of the seven seas gosh I hope I remember now well I wrote them down well the first C is commitment absolutely because you have to have that commitment I mean there's been research with Harvard Business School that the people that made commitments did better many many years later than those that didn't make commitments or you know sort of life commitment sort of like having a goal but having a commitment writing it down you know miss specific of me right exactly she's gonna eat better yeah not just say I'm gonna eat better I'm gonna exercise I'm never gonna eat cheese again no you know make it make it to it and not actually having it a time commitment see that's why we always do like 21 days first in my program we don't tell you that you can't have XYZ the rest of your life we're just like dr. Lisle says doing an experiment for 21 days we're gonna do this in on day 22 if you want that triple cheeseburger write it on your calendar you're going to get it but you're just gonna make a commitment and when you make that commitment public like we do in the ultimate weight-loss program or if you have a buddy it seems to be more powerful because then you have a cow ability yeah of course so that goes to the community prong of the seventh yeah that's I think number four and you know I think community is the one where most people fail and most people relapse because you brought that up that's the hardest for people because of the social pressure and then the second a lot of people sorry I don't interrupt but I think this is an important point like a lot of people like we live in Los Angeles there's you know whatever there's a million people here to to kind of Pat us on the back or whatever but a lot of people live in places where they don't have that community in their local town or wherever they live right that's why in online community that's why we created ultimate weight loss to also be online to help people all over the world with a virtual community which actually can be just as powerful although it is always nice to have somebody in person alright compliance compliance is my favorite word some people say they don't like it they like adherence better but adherence doesn't start with C but dr. Goldhammer says the word compliance that's right learned it and it literally means just following a prescribed course of action and what I love about it is there's no emotion to me at least there's no emotion in the word compliance people you know all the time make posts on our private group or call me up and say I was bad I ate a cookie all I was good today ate kale I don't look at it as like you're bad or you might be bad or good in life but you're not bad or good based on your food choices you're either compliant or non-compliant you made a choice yeah so choose to be compliant you you you you had a mishap you had a slip or a misstep or a relapse then you can go back to choosing to be compliant in the next meal whatever that program is yeah because because it takes this idea of failure and the shame that kind of goes hand-in-hand with it out of it because what happens is people slip or make that choice and then they beat themselves up so they've made a second mistake and then they're like [ __ ] it then they cope so then they're out right and and if you reframe that and call it by different names I made this choice it's neutral you're not bad or good you this is the choice that I've made okay that allows you to be dispassionate about it and go how can I recalibrate or what led me to make that choice like let's look at that let's unpack that and what do I need to do so that I don't make that choice again and it's how they talk to themselves because if they ate a cookie and then relapse and they say to himself well now I now I've blown it what's the use they feel a certain way versus there's a lifetime of energy behind that or if they saved it thyself oh I ate a cookie I was non-compliant it doesn't have the same charge was like I wasn't compliant oh well then you'll be compliant with the next meal all right the next is consistency as an athlete you know how important consist all the time because I mean you know I remember I don't I think it might have been Doug Lyall but that was it was it Kobe Bryant who there's some athletes that they don't just go to practice like they stay two hours later or come two hours before you know things like that when you do things in the same manner over time without with little variation and you do them consistently first of all you build a habit then it becomes an automatic habit but too many people go to TrueNorth once a year and fast and they lose some weight and they get off some medications but then they go right back to the same environment and the same way of eating because they're not doing it consistently so what you do most of the time is more important than what you do some of the time so being consistent with your food choices and your exercise yeah it's self-evident yeah that's pretty elementary but I think that's that's the most difficult thing I mean I think I think it's important to respect momentum if you have that experience of being a true north or you've done 30 days or 21 days of whatever you're doing we have this weird human impulse especially addicts of trying to celebrate those benchmarks like I'm doing the thing that is at odds with what got you there like like oh I got a year of sobriety here's a yeah or here's a cake yeah like yeah I haven't kept very exactly you know and and and and China maintained it's those micro little decisions that you're making every day that are truly at the crux of whether you're gonna succeed or not and that's the unsexy part you know it's like oh you can create all this romanticization out of like getting on a plane and going to true north and like you're housed and you're taking care of but like you know what are you doing at home when no one's looking moment to moment Howard an hour it's funny that you mentioned the word sexy I had this very affluent client that came to me and I playing the program and he goes you know this abstinence it's just not sexy and I said well there is your impotence so yeah because he'll also like nothing you know nothing truly no great accomplishment is really like what it takes to build a company or you know achieve any athletic Heights or any of these things like it's it's the unsexy part that gets you there it's the thing that you're doing your grind when no one's looking at you're doing anonymously like all of that is what contributes to that success building so much self-esteem with doing that that's the thing that's so cool yeah of course and when you look back it's those difficult moments that you recall you know it's not like that you know you could celebrate these victories but honestly like the value for me when I look at anything and I've created or succeeded out like I remember like the heart effort its you know dr. Lisle talks about that it's that you rewarded for the effort for a job well done you know I do a lot of these Iron Chefs and I don't always win but I don't feel bad when I lose I if I if I know I did my best you know that's all that matters of course the next one's changed is changed no it's cooking okay sorry I don't remember the order cooking you know it used to be continuing education and then I changed it to cooking because we realized that at some point you have to get the food right and either that means learning a few simple basic recipes yourself as we talked about or having somebody cook it for you because the food seems to be a part that eludes a lot of people you know I had a client 44 years old who came to me she goes how do you bake a potato and I'm like oh my god you know people have no skills anymore like when I grew up home economics was mandatory in junior high sewing and cooking we learned basic you know skills of the of the homemaker which I think men and women should should learn so it's just some basic cooking skills right all right cooking change change yeah you know you know that's saying nobody likes change but what baby but many people don't change until the pain associated with change is less than the pain of staying the same people have to at least be willing to change because you're going on a journey here that's completely different than anything you've ever done right because most of the world is gonna continue to eat crap and continue to eat animal products and so at least you have to be willing to make these changes you may have to change who you hang out with like if you were when you were an alcoholic if you had other buddies that were alcoholics you probably couldn't at least I try to completely change myself right or at least not hang out with them at the bar anymore so you have to be willing to change who you with if you still go to restaurants you might have to change which restaurants you go to how you or how you order so that's a big thing for people a lot of people don't like having to change no no they really don't know you know they want they want it they want all the good stuff right but they don't want to do those uncomfortable things exactly so AJ's got news for you yeah you gotta learn to get comfortable being uncomfortable right well we talked about community do you have anything more to say about that I think with community is that if you don't have one find one in whether it's my group or a virtual group or even just one person that this could be a buddy to you online or in person I think that that is really going to be the most important thing it would be very you know if my husband didn't support me in this I don't think I could do it you know if he was just you know drinking beer and eating pizza every night so even having that one special person to support yeah so what do you say to that person who is really trying hard but their spouse their partner is not a nice a good get divorced no so what I sometimes I do say that if they're not if they're sabotaging them so what I say is then you know at least don't have these things in the house so in other words if you're an alcoholic and your spouse isn't and they can still drink out of respect to you they will then drink outside of the home and it has to be the same thing with the foods or we recommend even getting what's called a locked food safe if your spouse won't support you it's going to be rough now all the doctors I've interviewed says say that a loving partner will support someone in recovery or at least should that doesn't always happen so if your spouse won't support you then you have to get it somewhere else it's very hard to do this alone no man is an island and recovery I know one person that was a cocaine addict that was extremely introverted highly intelligent that was able to get off the drug themselves without rehab without you know going to a doctor that's really rare recovery is generally done in programs because it really helps you to see that if you climb this mountain there is a top you when you see people like Heather Goodwin who have lost 300 pounds it kept it off you see what's possible and that's why I think if you don't have the support at home you've got to find you as we say your tribe somewhere yes a support system is absolutely crucial not just to see the example the successes but also just to catch you when you fall and yeah you know who you gonna call at midnight and you know all that kind of stuff is like I couldn't I couldn't gotten sober myself there's no way I know you know there's no way so I think it's SuperDuper important all right compassion oh that's might be a problem that's why wore this shirt today that's not compassionate I'm not dis compassionate but most of my life as an ethical vegan my compassion was more for those with fur and fins and feathers and not those so much with skin don't like people well it's not I don't like them but I always seem to do better with you know the animals and so I I realized that you know if I'm going to be successful helping people and if people are gonna be successful helping themselves you have to have compassion for other people at every step of their journey and for yourself especially when you relapses at people people if they understood what an insidious chronic progressive life-threatening disease addiction was whether it's food addiction or alcohol addiction they might be kinder to themselves when they relapse you know it's it's so you need to practice self compassion and there's a you know like your wife teaches yoga and meditation those are two of the most beautiful modalities that help you garner self compassion when you can get quiet and do those more mindful things a lot of people have compassion for the animals but not so much for other people and that's that's what I'm talking about with compassion however there are people that come to this program just to lose weight and really don't have compassion for the animals and then it's a plant-based program and then they maybe need to learn to have some compassion for those so it compassion is huge you know yeah the piece about self compassion is super important you know somebody's been in in you know the rooms of recovery for a long time like you see people that relapse there's chronic relapse or a lot of those people are under the misapprehension that they can go out and they can always come back which they can but you know just because you go out doesn't mean you're going to come back and and you know more often than not you know I've been witness to those people that go out thinking they're gonna come back after a binge weekend and they never come back never come back that's because of shame and because you know sometimes they die and let they know a lot of funerals but you know a lot of times is just they're so mortified can't face the prospect of returning to the rooms to admit on a public level like he says what happy and so they would rather imprison themselves and perpetuate the addictive cycle then have to actually confront that and you know it's that destroys life absolutely and that's why that's why community is so important addiction is a disease that can only thrive in isolation and that's just the way it is and they they they shouldn't feel so much shame I think that's why with with shows like yours to educate people that addiction actually it's a disease like you interviewed dr. Mattei it's not it's not like a choice it's not like we said oh you know this this great thing to have it's it's it's our brains are wired differently than other people's and even though it is it's not a choice but once we know that we are wired this way it becomes our responsibility to behave differently if we wish to recover which is why if I had one message for people that were suffering from any addictions it would be that abstinence is bliss it is so much easy to stay easier to stay in recovery than it is to continually have to detoxify and withdraw and try to get sobriety again whatever your addiction is but but like I said I've never met anybody that's gone to the top of the mountain or got to the other side that didn't think abstinence was it's so awesome if they could just feel what it was like to be in our brains to have a calm brain and not having cravings for any addictive substance people would do it but it is a tough sell yeah it is so we got to round this out but if somebody's listening to this and they are caught in that cycle and they're having difficulty you know confronting their own personal truth or trying to see their way out of it what is your lifeline might well I think that the first thing I would probably recommend is maybe read a book like the pleasure trap you know there that's a low buy-in like you know what is it like 15 bucks or 20 bucks on audible and see if that resonates with you what these doctors are saying and if it does maybe considering going to true north or at least having your free consult you know there's no there's no cost and just talking to dr. Goldhamer to see if it was right for you or having a low-cost consult with dr. Lyle for $75 if my program is right for you consider joining that you don't mean it's not right for everybody because it is it's a it's an abstinence based program and that's the thing people want the results of abstinence without doing the work of abstinence so and and just just get yourself educated more to see if you really are an addict you know there is no shame in this disease unless you feel that way you know that's why we need to bring this out and I mean I'm proud to say I'm an addict because once I found out I was I knew I could recover because there was treatment before that that's when I thought something was wrong with me that I couldn't I couldn't eat a cookie I'm like what's wrong with me who eats you know all these cookies I don't get it but once I knew that there was a reason there was no more shame right so often the fear of the unknown exceeds the pain of the the current situation right and and and I also I think it's it's often revealing if you get out a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle and write on one side like all the pain that you're suffering from and on the other side what you're afraid of and and really get real with yourself you know willingness is something that you can't you can't will somebody to be willing they have to have their own sort of desire to you know do that kind of work and they either have it or they don't and my hope and my wish for everybody who's listening who is suffering is that you do have that willingness because is that that will make the difference between you you know changing your life and just maintaining stuck in whatever path you can always go back you can try sobriety if you don't like it you know it you know it's not none none of these programs or court-ordered well sometimes I guess they are for some people but in general in general you know that's why I love the concept of not even a day at a time but a meal at a time a bite at a time you can always choose to go back and I don't know if I heard this on one of the guests in your show but you know they say that the opposite of addiction is connection and that's why absolutely that's why it's so important to find a tribe or at least one person to support you awesome AJ you're an inspiration oh thank you I love you how do you feel I feel great my hairdresser says she's your biggest fan and she was so jealous that I was coming here I have a massive fan base amongst hairdresser do she's a vegan hairdresser oh cool yeah that's cool really great if you want to connect with AJ there's a number of to do that the most important thing though is check out her new book secrets to ultimate weight loss she also has a book called eat unprocessed unprocessed yeah process yeah check that out and your website your coaching your online programs on my website chef AJ website yeah or eat unprocessed calm yeah cool nice you're on all the social networks are you speaking anywhere what's coming up the cruise is until next year you know I've been taking a little time off to to to to get this book done am I going anywhere special no oh Rancho La Puerta where you've been with Julie yeah in Mexico may may 5th through 12 yeah I had Deborah on the podcast early days as well cool she's amazing she's awesome how old is she must be like like 95 or 96 now yeah she stole she stole showing up and doing her she's she's the goddess I love her no she's cool alright awesome come back and talk to me again sometime oh my god it'd be my honor pleasure thank you peace plants eat unprocessed Oh

Channel: Rich Roll

Views: 310,193

Rating: 4.8893619 out of 5

Keywords: rich roll, vegan, health, fitness, diet, nutrition, athlete, podcast, inspiration, motivation, plantpower, plant-based, wellness, self-help, weight loss, chef aj, fasting, water fast, intermittent fasting, alan goldhamer, michael klaper, true north, sugar, fat, nutrition density, calories, anorexia, bulemia, eating disorder, disordered eating, recovery, sobriety

Id: SOEedti3ynU

Length: 100min 46sec (6046 seconds)

Published: Sun Apr 29 2018