Trying out online EventStorming

I'm alive all right we are live welcome everyone on this very very special event of Virtua domain-driven design Vita so we are going to try out event storming online today which is I think I believe that no one did before so it's a very new thing and basically we have no expectations so no one here has expectations today we don't know what to expect we are very curious about that so let's jump in and I'm going to pass over the mic for people here for the panel presenters to introduce themselves very quickly I myself I'm Joe fear I'm a project manager and basically a DDD enthusiast and I really love even storming I'm a DDD fan for three years already so let me pass it over to Barry to start the introduction okay no problem hi there my name is Mario Sullivan I am a software contractor in Ireland I specialize in legacy web applications so usually code that has no domain driven design in it and my role is to dive into that and try to extract the domain concepts and make a testable and after say DDD is invaluable in that and event storming is actually one of the tools I frequently use to understand not just what the state's people think the system does but what when the people give contradictory descriptions of what the system does so I'm very much looking forward today to seeing what we come up with with online event story cool thank you Mary so Maxine can go next hi everyone I'm maximum and I'm a new craft conference organizer one of the you new craft organizer actually and I'm a big fan of even storming and I'm doing a lot of even storming and I cannot think I am now able to to get into and dive into any domain without having an intern storm before so yeah I am pretty excited to do this online X stay and we will see what we get at the end yeah sure thank you our host Kenny yeah hi I'm Kenny bas I'm a strategic software delivery consultant really into events timing and all things DDD trying to help companies yeah grow in their strategic delivery hey and last but not least because he is our event forming facilitator today mark oh yeah hi myself right I've been doing domain driven design events forming for up to a decade now was ddd and six seven years was event storming I think ever since Alberto coined the term and I can't imagine to model any domain anymore without doing an event storming up front and all the way in between but I've been always doing it in collaboration with people in a room cuz I think it's very important to stand together in a room to get the body language and and the mimics and all the details and see where people are actually moving and I always said you can't do events drawing online you can't really collaborate digitally but I always said that without actually ever trying so I'm really excited today to learn and to challenge my own belief that it's not possible and see how much as possible when you do it so there's three different kinds of event storming just upfront there is big victory event storming to explore a problem space completely together with business experts and developers there is process modeling where it's about a business process exploration where it's about exploring how certain business processes work on a more detailed level and then there is software level event storming where we try to design aggregates and commands and events down to the implementation level to get a clean implementation model that is not written in code but in sticky notes with experts we're sticking to the middle thing today to the process modeling and we chose as a domain conference visitation by an attendee so since we most of us are actually visitors or conference or organize conferences even we are kind of domain experts already and we're also software developers so the perfect mix of people to to model this domain actually so the idea is you are an attendee at a conference and you have a certain journey third things are happening I want to model with all of you how can we how does the process of going to a conference actually work for you from the initial idea of hey I want to be there until you enter you paid you saw what you saw and let's start with two main events so everything in past tense that could have happened to you an event is basically an orange sticky note and Kenny if you could switch to the board now so we can actually see the modeling surface that we all collaborate on yeah and we got a just winning a thing with muted no that's better that you keep him mute now yes wonderful so um everybody who is joining on the video you can see the mirror service and now actually I can switch that so you see the mirror board which is our online tool to move sticky notes around and if you zoom on top of the event storming logo there you see the legend how an Process Model event storming should look so these are different colors so if we were going to introduce over the time and we'll start with events the only sticky notes and event is something that happens in past tense so any factual thing that happened in your domain you can put on there and I would urge all the models in the room now that is Kenny and Sophie and Barry of Max and Alberto and me to write down the whole journey from the perspective of the attendee anything happens to the attendee in the flow of the process of a conference which I met this to five to ten minutes or until we see the flow heading off so I want to start with the first one you can just take an event hit ctrl deep and then move it down to the stream and then type in whatever event comes to mind so far so good adjusted the editors right I'm just freedom Lea oops rats it's okay so the timestream should go from left to right so the more left you are the more in the past and the more right you are the more in the future the event happened in the process and just more lad anything that comes to mind start with whatever you think is the most important event in the process as an attendee I think this is a most silent session we ever had wait wait until we start showing each other's flow looking each other's four flows then the words and start flying okay so I've been already looking and editing other people's flows somebody wrote down before the conference and I just had two ideas we could either refund your ticket or you could get your ticket we found it or alternatively you could have picked another attendee in your place no so Maxine you didn't have access right do you have a job I will refresh that you don't know I don't we already have the first you should hell oh maybe you're on the different account which accounts are you on good question the end crops or the Gmail one I think I added you for the Gmail one okay so let me try with the other icons on there we already have the first green part right yeah XS right oh that's the first time that's wrong that's yeah that's better Thank You Kenny cool I added your most favorite one Alberto just putting a name between yours use coupon all tickets yeah I'm stopped checking Q&A now Kenny could you zoom in a little on the big board so that attendees on the YouTube can actually read a little on the tickets yeah like that yeah that's great yeah okay so that's a little duplication going on so I'm I'm gonna start and look for duplicate tickets and try to put the time frame a little in order and clean up the mess a little if you if you're out of ideas and didn't don't write any more events join me in cleaning up the whole model yeah um event canceled and conference got canceled seems similar to me who wrote event canceled mm-hmm I did even canceled yeah so do you mean the conference yep the whole thing here yeah that's the same for the conference got canceled so that it might be same you know so if you're if you're okay with that I would get rid of that sticky yeah sure yeah so which one canceled now I don't see the sticky stuff how can that got reflected right good point that's a shame let's just make this a darker shade no we can't okay maybe we can put an italic so I'm gonna make it italic if it's imported and I'm gonna put it up on the school no down on the road so that that's one I'm gonna write I'm gonna write them on the index card so you're saying one thing that we can do is how to deal with quit invalid events like that question would be how to deal with in other events and the answer would be in this case make them another another font or is that something we might want or where did you move it now to the bottom oh yeah I'm area called remove tickets but we don't have a floor where we can throw tickets to right so this is gonna be so we've got a few questions yeah so is it so it's impossible to know who wrote a sticky note without asking that's the first question from Rafa wants to answer on that one because that's something you would experience in a real-life event store right can recognize the writing but with 2030 people that's hard right yep yeah would we want do we want to know is the answer right if you read the sticky or is it a good thing to find the person because that that that generates more communication right and interaction yeah if I mean if we don't understand quite exactly what the person was meaning with what she wrote maybe we can ask who wrote that one and then get into more details and and as you said trigger some some conversation so that's good idea to ask but I would say that's that's a good point let's take a first break I think we're almost 5 to 10 minutes in now and have a short recap so are there any more questions that pop up besides what would you answer on how do you know who wrote what sticky yeah you don't that is a problem right now so if you have to ask but that's pretty similar to the real event storming yeah you don't really know who wrote the tickets I agree and handwriting is kind of a signature maybe not every single one is but here is basically designed for having everything looking the same while hand I think it's not so that's true yes this is clearly something that we we might lose and also Miro I think has only two fonts available by default italic so I put that on so shall I stop sharing and then we go to refine section oh please please keep the please keep the screen for a second because there's an actual problem that is perceivable here it's there are three rows of events now and they are very distinct so I am guessing depending on where the arrows are now it's one row with Sophia's one is berries and the more chaotic one has been collaborated by two or three people yep so a thing that happens an event storming in a physical world naturally is you walk past those things and you realize oh this thing belongs up here and you see the interaction of people the mouse cursor doesn't really bug me it doesn't stand in the way doesn't I don't want to collaborate with the mouse cursor so yeah this is a first action all right if we want to emerge this model we need to do a conscious decision and say let's merge the models but since only two people at the time can talk because we have only one microphone connection for everyone that's gonna be a very hard serialize conversation and not a parallel one no we got someone raping her hand yeah we just bought off now I think and that's your faces yeah let me switch see if I can go to participant stereo okay oh I have someone raising hand oh not anymore that's funny Miranda you want to say something continue okay so what is your first impression of the first round anyone any idea any emotion about this it's a bit chaotic and I cannot I cannot speak people who walk I in last of Naruto I like to see where people walk and that's hoping Albarn oh you also talk about right all of the people on the board to see where they are going because that way that the body language shows my this is my part right this is what I especially big picture which we're not doing now but also in the process I can see the group dynamic and I don't see it now and for me as a facilitator or someone who participate I find that always really interesting okay so that's a negative is you don't see the body language and you don't see where they go and collaborate positive aspects so positive aspect for now well the positive aspect is still that it goes quite fast and we're not in the same room so I think we have a lot of clearance at the moment so it does help already I think there's already power in it itself by sharing it this way and make the implicit explicit you another positive thing here is that I wouldn't be able to model with you guys if we wouldn't have this session I don't think we would be in the same room and doing this in person so that's great and and also this is this is another way of chaotic thing which is yeah different from the in-person one but I think it's it's great to experience it yeah so it's able you're actually able to model with people that you wouldn't model usually because you're not in the physical space yeah it's great where you had something what I'm thinking at the moment is that while we're working in isolation and as you say we've kind of lost aspects of body language but one thing that this makes it easy to do is bring people over to your section and then review it so but it's it's it's easy for 2p or three or four people to collaborate on the same section because we're not all crooked but not all crunched in together in physical space true yeah that's true okay well better do you have an opinion about the three or four so one way is already went up so the handwriting is lost and that's kind of a signature the thing about the three lanes actually and thinking about the body language I would say it's pretty too early to say like at this phrase this is what usually happens when it's kind of private now taking and is not yet body language thing actually I would say the signal is exactly the same that happens when I'm writing on my private notes on a table before going on the surface so yeah it's just like so that let's put the two dynamics in place the tool is forcing to make the private note-taking visible at the same time screen read ability is making it invisible again because if I need to read my stickies I cannot scroll down and read somebody else in this will not visible it's there but I have to look at it and I won't be doing it another thing which is which is getting like a pain for me I need the hot spot and I need the hot spot to be twisted 20 30 degrees and a mirror doesn't really like this and that mirror doesn't like I mean the color for the hot spot is it's kind of weak I would like to have another caller for that but while the choice out the corner for the hot spot this is kind of behind it that this is horrible just try my best I mean it's ugly and so this this this thing is kind of I appreciate your effort but I'm still kind of kind of disappointed in in this but yeah we need a way to actually May that that is that is the best way he's not so easy to signal the hotspot quickly well maybe that's yeah that that is the best way and the other thing that I don't like is the color this color doesn't stand out as much of the the drill magenta does and so they're okay orange is fine right well the orange is is kind of like sticking out so orange but but the the hot spots column was uh was kind of kind of blame actually yeah I like this one but the signal was a was kind of missing for me yeah so yeah experimenting a little was color so it gets more visible it might also depend on your screen color temperature and stuff like that so don't put the blame on me please I mean people in general dude someone is suggesting to use new role instead of me ro maybe there will be some more options and color options or maybe it would be more easier to see some kind of signature I know there's the possibility on me ro to put a smiley on a sticky note so that would be something that can be done if everyone is choosing one smiley so or emoji you can put it on on yeah on the sticky but it's not really easy and yeah yeah I would say to mastery gets in the way yeah exactly the thing about even storming is just like can you write let capital letters on a sticky note with a marker that's all we need to do yeah well here then there's the stool mastery that might get in the way not might be not a big issue for yeah software people like us but for other disciplines this might might become an issue yeah yeah certainly you have to really learn how to use mirror even if it's pretty simple but it is a tool that you need to learn you need to understand the whole notion yes you know get that so I suggest after this first round second round now for the next five to ten minutes we should merge the three models and whenever we come up with a hot spot if there's a duplication or anything where you think like oh this is not right use the hot spot sticky that we created now put it in place and if you can talk to the person directly but only two people can talk at the same time so we see how that goes let's find out once we start doing it so let's try to merge the model in the middle model right taking the below one into the middle and taking the upper one into the middle and move the stuff around so that it fits right just so that I understand could you give me an anchor ticket for the middle one you're referencing sorry and I will just Nikki middle model is if you zoom out the middle line by Sophie it's a ticket downloaded attendee registered conf Cody's handed over tell me you can you go to the top screen of mural you can hide and show clever tips cursors I'm not sure if you all have that yet or not you can see where you're actually pointing to now I just put it off on my screen and it doesn't want to jump in perfect cool okay so um five minutes starting now let's merge the models hey that's right let's do it - it already by zooming out and in Oh God good start okay the thing is by the way in between I just noticed because I got some disconnects is every time I I go in there's there's a chance that the mural blocks and you you don't see anything moving anymore and it just freezes while you still think you're in okay that's awkward I figured that I've seen this happen a lot with mirror where you're idle or not in at some point you still think you're in but you're not and not I've used Miro a couple of times for conference talks and the same thing happens which is pretty annoying I just did it I just refreshed it yeah okay I'm going to start at Murray still smart yes I'm just going to this stuff make sense in the flow at the rightmost side of what I was working on so it was going to do that so I'm not going to remove anything I'm moving it over and prepped for moving it up into the flow so Rinat the saying it looks like we can change the fonts and so if we each choose a font I don't know okay I'll take marker and then you can choose your own well I want to annoy people so I'm choosing Comic Sans amazing someone just wrote it is not an event one tree front of the conference yeah um that sounds more like a command right into the system so let's introduce another color blue for the commands so if a user in a row has an intention I'm gonna move down a blue one here it should be the blue color can you see it on the screen yes you can great so I can change it automatically yeah so I'll leave that and you can change it here we go it's glue now and I can remove so there's interesting stuff when I go online I check that there should be more funds available but I don't see it so one thing I notice now is that usually in this face when I do a real life event storming there's a lot of talking going on yeah the thing is that here everyone knows the domain actually and we don't have to speak to the domain expert and then just because we are reading right so I think a lot of reading is happening and yeah of course for this face it's it's true yeah I think we're just trying to postpone the conversation definitely happen we have one single timeline here so saw so if you're asking what does the green sticky mean please all three don't can you elaborate on that remark which one it yeah I read model it so it goes on I saw that somebody already started to use this this one and I'm in the process model it might happen so the thing is the wit model at this stage might be the information needed in order to make the following decision and so well before ticket type selected basically we need to know of course ticket prices and ticket availability and types and this these are the two things which come before this decision of selecting a given typical ticket type and maybe also payment type might be in might be involved so given the pole big event this information need to be displayed on the screen I notice to make this decision possible you know yes so one thing usually in an event storming is you have the wall and on the right side of the wall you have the legend building up iteratively over just in one time so we'll add the legend for these and the as a note here now we have the legend on top so can even zoom up yeah I'm there now with ya but that that's also the thing right emergent notation so basically we start with events and we just prepared up there so we can clone it that makes it simple for the event process modeling but in an event storming you let this emerge right starting with event and then you come up with systems and roles and afterwards you go to commands and whenever you need you would present read models so hot spot of the first one we actually needed to introduce as a secondary color to mark those spaces where we need to discuss stuff but the problem is that you can't have it always visible because you need to zoom in and out so actually the recipe my might be different in in process modeling so sometimes we we just go straight with the with the legend and so the thing about going step by step is actually necessary and mandatory I would say in a big picture because i can assume there's always somebody doing it for the first time so the onboarding is embedded in the format but for process modeling it might be something that they do yeah like every few weeks so you might have a team which is familiar with this so you might you might say like this is the notation you have it just follow the Colo schema and try to deliver something so you can start playing with different colors yeah from the beginning given that you're from affluent with the with the color reference so what what what you're saying over know is that if you have an experienced team that has done it couple of times that knows the color-coding you'll probably go straight into the color-coding after the storming of the events I would say we might even not do the storming of the events it's a way of starting but not the only one we might we might start from the beginning and try to follow the color coding until we get to the M and and when because you say we might when when do you decide that well it depends on the session like this I am actually modeling this as as a collaborative game and well the modeling team basically picks their own strategy sometimes starting from from a story faced with events is the best initial move sometimes starting from picking a starting command and then building up okay I have a command that I need a think system then I need an orange event that I need the policy for before another command and following the coral structure is the way to go or sometimes we start from the M so there is not not a single it's a rule space collaborative game and it might be strategy with just strategies which are best performing in a given situation but yeah really depends on the situation depends on the team ease and yeah that's that's more or less a thing yeah so does that depend on if they have a clear outcome or starting position you might just play by the game first and if they don't you start with storming first right the chaotic exploration or it did the problem with the with the storming it just like needs be time boxed or can backfire as written back yet so yes but creates a little bit more chaos sometimes I want it said sometimes I don't really want it like is these different strategies which are really situational but yeah I don't wanna yeah we can talk about it but it might be disrupting the the purpose of the of the workshop so they want to be yeah - hello Oh my question would be I think there's two different ideas here um the exploration the the collaborative exploration that might lead to chaotic thing has nothing to do with the emergence so you can have chaotic exploration and have the structure at hand from the beginning or you can have chaotic exploration and start with only events and let's stop which once it happens I think it's totally the experience level of your audience so if you are in a group of people everybody knows events storming of course you can start with the whole notation at once yep especially we start with a whole audience of people on YouTube who might never have done event storming so starting step by step how to get along right yeah I just needed to say like that's not the only way is not rule it's a strategy we might be in different competing strategies for for winning in the game and depends a lot on the situation you are in then I'm totally happy so a question there with with Mir the use of mirrors of going back to that with that more lend itself towards going chaos chaotic exploration first or just start by the rules what what what works more for Miro do you think anyone can answer that hmm what is your feeling about that I have both feelings at the moment so it's way more chaotic immediately because everybody can ride anywhere and there's no physical boundaries usually in a room you are kind of bound by if three people who write in one space you can't stand in the same physical spot so there's a little bit of physics in your way which gives a nice break every once in a while but it's also a hindering factor so the chaos here is is quickly there and it can distribute a lot but it's also very hard to get rid of the chaos here once up there which is easier in a physical space because you can actually grab people and put attention somewhere and and you can have collaborative discussions what we can do here is only one person speak at the same time we can't really collaborate in two groups parallel that is the biggest hindering factor so I would say the conversation was not happening it's like so we could have one to one person conversation talking to the author but we didn't know who the author was so we didn't even start the conversation because even if we know each other we were kind of shy or micro laziness in action okay let's move this one first the men postpone the conversation yeah basically what what I think or I am wondering about whether it would work better if someone would so one person to do this merging so merging the events into a single timeline or trying to murder the events and in the meanwhile reading out loud what he or she is doing and basically that's the place where others could like jump in and say that yeah I meant that or I meant the other thing and I didn't mean that so maybe that would I don't know I'm just guessing here so maybe it would have rather than everyone reads out their own thing in silence and then we are just watching who does what and we are dragging dropping the events yeah so matter do you have anything card maxime no yeah I think it that might be a good idea to try letting someone speak out loud and we organized the stickies and and see what's happening that might work I don't know we need to try parent well an idea that's not appropriate for right now but something that might be really worth looking into later is where we've constant we're talking about the problem with conversation the fact that realistically one or two people can talk whereas and then a real live event storming that'd be much more conversation it might be possible to solve that with one mayoral board and then multiple zoom groups so the idea is that if you were able to have it that people could join a group and then leave a group and it's kind of like somebody physically moving around the room so that would be like I've done some wool of Warcraft in my in the past there you have very low chat box right and I think they have a similar slack kind of thing I was in last time where you can create specific groups but used to say me report is that what you say yes yes yes interesting make it possible for people to metaphorically move around the room and join different sections that are discussing different things yeah so another it feels a bit like the old days with World of Warcraft where I was reading to be old I might have to raise my hand here the fact that is there is a solution which is viable for nerds doesn't mean that we have a solution so a lot lot of thing in even Satomi are about enabling the conversation with people with a different background and now we're moving the conversation in the place that requires previous experience with world of warcraft to be confident with that with the user experience yeah let's say Mike and and and and that's something I wrote down is I cannot see if I'm losing people here yep and especially business people because for me it is the natural environment but not for a lot of people yeah so another thing I'm observing here right now is when I try to zoom out to see what's happening on the board I see your mouse cursors moving all over the place so in really when storming you focus on a certain area for a short while unless you're running around in the back of the room but here it's like zooming into one or two sticky note zooming out moving around like I couldn't even have a conversation with you about a certain part until I say hey you stop look at these five sticky notes right now as really hard yeah so I'm I'm not sold on the online event storming so far um I have a few questions oh yeah shall we do a retrospective League diamond I have some questions of the audience yes yeah so the first one is how do you foster participation when working with beginners so can we explain maybe out of which to do it in the real life events forum versus how would we see that opening in mirror yeah so um beginners in a real life event storming situation that is that's pretty easy cuz it's a game and if you announced it as a modeling and you engage people by bringing out their ideas of how they think the model of the process should work I'm always encouraging that there are no wrong answers and if they can't come up with another with their own vision then you send to to criticize the vision of the other people to engage in the questions and answers and just use a creativity to to always come up with another idea or to find solutions to possible problems on the wall there is a simple way of engaging people we we used mentors so if someone is really shy but they have a friend in the group that is already more part of the group for a longer time use them as a as a body basically for a while to get them engaged different psychological tricks to get the person having fun in the game but while all that is happening never forcing people to having to ride on sticky knows if somebody doesn't want to it should be a safe environment and that altogether gives people a safe feeling and makes it engaging to to to continue working in Orland even storming our experiences Lao forty minutes long so I have no clue I wouldn't know how to actually get a junior or someone who is new to event storming and who doesn't really want to participate to participate because I can't grip you by the hand I can't point a sticky note and say look here I can't be engaging in a with this virtual distance here that's really hard there's you know what do other things that people I think it might be more difficult even online we can think that maybe if there are shy people in the room there will be it will be more easier for them to participate in an online event storming but if I think they will spend too much time as I did actually on this event storming right now spending time reading what the others were writing on the other sticky notes so maybe they they will spend their time reading and not writing so it might be also a problem I think during the only I prefer yeah I'm with mark or with the when he said that you don't have to to apply someone to write something and that people act as they want to act so for the further the real even storming before the online I think it might be even and I don't know I I don't think it would be easier for for a newcomer to to get into even storming online that's the this one couple of thing here which which are you can get people into an even storming without invitation just by running and even storming in an open space where it's visible and if you're passing by you can actually join and you can even leverage this by but putting a little buffet of food and beverages and so people are gonna be attracted by food or anything like this clearly this would not work online so another solution for that all cleared out called pop-up are you joking okay worried and but yeah but but but the thing is this is not going to be visible unless people really want to get a look into it while an even stormy could happen you're not invited but yeah I saw I saw you're looking there and I can just like as an Italian come in join don't worry if you're not writing anything but if you're curious you might want to might want to say it these speak having a look type of curiosity-driven thing is not going to happen online and then I think somebody highlighted the other the other problem that I see for an observer for a junior this is gonna be completely mysterious like I am seeing sticky notes popping up I don't understand exactly which are the behavioral patterns while observing people in in the right word okay I might understand a little bit more here is quiet and I just see things popping up is really really hard to observe I could not distinguish you from chat bots in and totally adding to that as a facilitator I can't even see if the junior is not engaged or totally engaged because I don't see who is doing stuff there's just sticky notes and I can only see the momentary right now eh oh he he just is writing a sticky note but other than that if I'm looking at the board I don't know who's actually doing stuff or who's just sitting around any actual event storming you see people physically moving so yeah yeah my feeling before doing that decks big that experience was that it would be a nice thing to do with experienced even Stormers and experienced people that knows that know already the domain but not necessarily with new comers and and a new domain and and things like that so that might confirm some things I had in mind with this experience it might not work on every kind of context yeah or maybe if you are even storming online like now maybe we should be more specific beforehand and maybe like distribute topic I mean that topics sorry faces in the timeline so do your bit rehearsal and and talk through the very very very high level process or just the phases in there not in details and not on the event basis and we can like say like bury you go first with the conference announcement part and and Maxime you go with the attendee buying the ticket pours and and these kind of you know we can we can split and and then it would be maybe easier to do the conversation afterwards still those things which we mentioned already those are really missing so I just can relate to that so the conversation and and these things but yeah this is just something that I'm I'm thinking about so I want to launch a small pool for the ones attendees here in check and it's on a scale from one to five do you like event storming on neuro so far so I'm launching it now you can you can start yes enter submit your question so how do we continue mark oh well let's say the next phase would be to add systems and roles so if an event is triggered by a system put the system on the on the right to the event and if the system triggers an event put on the left the same goes for roles so to figure out what actors in what roles are actually issuing all those events are affected by it and what systems interact with the whole process that's the next phase to get a better understanding of what technologies are already in place or what what solutions do you have in mind of how to improve the whole process figuring out which technological or organizational systems and rules are in place okay okay so um while you are doing that I have to leave you in four minutes so I would hand off to Kenny to continue the facilitation of the event storming cool leaving it was a wonderful task of adding systems and roles yeah okay oh I have one observation immediately the thing that always bugged me in analog events storming when you have a screen off of stickies that are very close together and you need to add something in the middle it takes time to move stuff to the sides and keep preserve the structure right yes and sometimes when it gets dense and you're you're not fast enough as a facilitator to put everything apart then it takes a lot of time to actually clean up the board again and again with Anila was digitally then storming in Miro you can just copy everything to the side move everything to the side and preserve structure perfectly and it's kind of beautiful yeah they might be being able to drag and select and drag is very handy you know I love that okay everybody enjoy the rest of the modeling session very much Michael thanks Marco see you thank you bye thank you [Music] this is an interesting part because we we're all in a different this is really specific on the contact writer systems which systems are you using this is specific for multiple conferences so how do we name the systems well that's one place where we shouldn't have this ambiguity and since we are not working for the same organization we are left with some ambiguity so let's say if if the boundaries of a ticketing systems are clear we might be happy with the ticketing system thing without whether is Eden right title or Alfio or anything anything else I would say the important thing might be the boundaries of the system like not creating a mega system which is the only one and doing everything yeah so I always see our making a ticket system and an invoicing system and a company permission system for the company permission system is usually these companies have their at their local system where you can we can ask for these kind of things right also we should be actually writing our domain glossary here right because received versus him boys yeah so that's a question that was oh maybe not there but I think it's machine michiel in Dutch so I'm not sure if the ticker-type means something ticket I'd like single day full comforts probably means something like that I'm missing a mode where people explain the nouns used on the cards we are trying to pawn this conversation that's another thing yeah but we are trying to postpone it to the nth right here that's what's your answer you know I don't know if this is intentional yeah I'm actually looking for some other duplicates we are trying to rearrange them we have duplicates we are some reason we're not talking about it I think the problem is is a real and that's that that's actually one of the thing which is bugging me I'm trying to because shouldn't we do a walk-through first yeah a review of what we have yeah so I would say well maybe we needed that that's the way or maybe we picked hotspot but I don't think the the storyline is consistent we never had the moment where the story line was was actually consistent that so we might well that might be the right thing to do right now okay so who wants to start from the left who wants to start to walk through the explicit walkthrough okay awesome I can see the arrow so maybe with your mouse you can yeah show us around right that's right okay so I assume the leftmost one is a conference schedule published yeah so I'm already nitpicking but the first thing I'm thinking is it's possible for people to buy at the blind bird ticket before the conference schedule is published but that's not really that's not part of the main flow we could discuss that afterwards so conference schedule we put that somewhere in here right that's a hot spot yeah and so what about early birds even blind without any schedule okay okay great so then we have checked online for prices so I imagine this is somebody who is looking at the information well once look so and there are two reed models which is the ticket prices and then the ticket availability and types so what I imagine is happening here is that they want to look at what the value prices are so that they can ask permission so the next thing is is that there's a system for company permission system so I imagine that this is asking for permission I think that those two are the wrong way around given that the event for asking for permission should what what is the company permission system go on I imagine that it is person that wrote it that somebody if they're they want their company to buy them the ticket so the company has some sort of processor system in place on whether they give tickets or not they allow people to attend and whether they'll cover the expenses yeah so this event came for me and I've worked at big corporates where you have this where you have a budget per year and then internally you need to use this system to ask permission and then the boss can check and give you permission yes it looks like evil it is evil I don't need to use that anymore luckily but it's what we're it's what most people are dealing with and I created an event later on that says well boss promised me that that's my ticket that I got my tickets but they were too late because of the bureaucratic process going on right as well but that means that we assume that the attendee is someone is an employee actually and that yeah a freelancer or something I don't know so we need to clarify that we had at least an employee and I will say freelance it don't need this slope exactly yeah so should we bring in some arrows now well I don't know about the arrows so now I'm concerned about readability because they wrote that in these and freelancer and yeah look like legal stuff on an insurance contract so I need to do mean to understand employee here yeah yes it looks like the fine print yep well could we that might be just because of the scale of it so if we were to draw it out and make it more mean let me see what happens there we go a little bit bigger okay well do we want to instead of fixing it immediately will we keep doing the hot spots and try to keep going through the flow or do we want to fix things as we find them yes don't know I guess we can't take thing as we find them we can find things with a higher speed than the time needed to solve them yeah but you don't need consensus for finding problems you need consensus for solving them so usually it the action that we do even in in person even storming it's just like you take an issue which looks like who'd be solved and and then we we find the solution on only one liked solution making cannot really be happening in parallel because you need consensus with the other members of the team unless it's something really really stupid or easy but yeah okay so we just continue Sophie are you still there sure I'm here I'm just sometimes I switch off my video because you know what I saw happening here was very Alberto maxxium switching around with their cursors and ice are you in the upper right corner so it's just one way of checking it someone hill here right yeah because I'm now staring at the screen share for some reasons because I was thinking on something how it could be cool okay so we are now at the ticketing system right yes so this is imagining somebody there looking at the sights and they're choosing a ticket so ticket type is selected and then we enter what looks like a fairly fleshed out payment flow so first off we have payment type selected because it's possible to pay different ways we also so first flow we have here is payment type selected credit card so effectively we just have the success flow for that which is competition purchased ticket paid and there is a credit card validation system and an online payment system which are both required though would they be one system role together online payment without take care of the validation or would they be independent up I'm that might be the same so it's probably worth putting I'm just gonna copy that is this the same concept and there we go okay so that is the credit card flow then we have a coupon flow which use the coupon on a ticket which can have a discount applied you can also have a company bought a group ticket and company bought ticket so this these would be the same flows except it's being purchased by somebody else so to the attendee this matters to the company sorry to the organizers themselves it doesn't matter but that's about just events from different perspectives okay so then we move on to so is there anything in that that people feel is off or can we move on so one thing that reminds me if you go to the upper left down corner you see in your new screen you see screen sharing in that box right can you click on it oh yes my search yes myself to the screen share okay yeah start it yeah that makes sense okay one second yeah I just want to try this out I've used it too in my conference talk but then to just track it with my tablet right but okay okay well you're you're still screen sharing so no no three here damn near oh there's chrétien or Mira I'm sorry - top left corner on the white part in the box in a down left sorry awesome video there's a video chat and screen sharing - clearing which one is it with the arrow now can join so now I actually see what you're seeing and now you can move on okay great I just joined you okay so yeah noise great okay so we have so far we've gotten to here we've reviewed these events and systems and we're moving on to the invoicing system at the moment so this is most likely the invoicing system on the DDD EU site I'm imagining correct me if I'm wrong whoever created this so the first thing we have a receipt is generated and then a receipt is issued we have a hotspot saying is this the same concept a good question we also have an invoice received which would be slightly different I imagine that would go to accounts if it was a company track and at that stage you also receive an email from the conference and attendance is confirmed actually I would say that the invoice received should go on the other purchaser and they made from the conference should go to the attorney that makes sense that makes sense okay let's just take a note of that I'll just put another hotspot for that and yes the classic because I am online people are watching me my typing has gone to hell yes this is always the way well you don't see it you know people won't know it's you in one minute anyway it's not your handwriting that's true that's true but sadly I was dumb enough to announce it to everyone so okay so we then enter into the people are getting into the the flows off flight booked so this is about getting to and fro with flight booked booked an accommodation booked those are definitely two flows I could also see flows thereof submitting that information then to the company I know we're bringing up the company flow rather than the contractor flow but it's just worth mentioning since we started on us that you would probably send that information to get reimbursed first you might have that option so assuming all Lots gone ahead we have then ticket issued and ticket assigned which has a valid question of is this the same concept and ticket purchase so there seems to be a bit like to me that seems a bit muddy and might be worth the worth further discussion then we have attendee profile created so this I'm unsure of myself does anybody have any points on that one I don't know who put anyone that one maybe mark mark oh no yeah Mikey might look like so you are you're coming so I might know how to get in touch with you for last-minute messages I need to know something about your dietary requirements if you are yeah allergic to oil thing or if you have specific ether needs so I'm actually try me okay that does make sense because we were asked those questions when we did register for and most conferences they'll ask you these questions so it seems like something it might be that one should be further back in the flow with one were you talking about again simplified creative yeah maybe maybe okay so then we have favorite sessions bookmark so I imagine that's somebody who's very who's proactive and is looking at the schedule well in advance and just figuring out what they want to go to and then they are also afterwards downloading their ticket and then we have up here a valid event that could happen which is no more tickets left while the boss promised which is something Kenny was talking about earlier yeah so I'm adding this today do we want them to still download I never download my tickets anymore yeah this depends like the attendee I guess I mean what devices they have or whatever maybe they don't have the smartphone and the ticket app or whatever it used to be like you know print it out go to the conference whatever yes so there's no more tickets left my boss promised by the way I saw the tweet from dee dee dee Europe saying that like full is really full but not reminded me of creating this event right so then we've got the refund flow so you want a refund and refund requested and then that is you will most likely get it unless there are extenuating circumstances it's it's there's most likely another system in there that you don't control so it's not exactly one to one okay so then we're getting into okay before we get into the actual attendance flow which is going to it we've got two more up here actually we've got a couple up here preferred sessions picked out or picked up so that's similar to the one we had yeah yeah that's what's the one we had pretty yeah not exactly what I was referring to this lottery going on we did the Europe when you don't have enough space for everyone to attend the workshops and then you have to pick up your preferred sessions in advance and then there's a lottery going on and then you will be assigned a workshop and you need to yeah order in order of preference preference what kind of workshop you would like to attend and then the system will decide for you actually okay then uh yeah that's that's definitely a complete that's a completely different flow plan yeah yeah in a very important one in workshops sorry in conferences that have hands-on sessions with limited space and the first rating one I would imagine yes okay so we have that we also have here an edge case but one that needs to be considered which is got sick before conference which then leads to take it being refunded yet again and I would that there's also that one maybe that could be the same that's a good idea that's good one so one one thing here is what is there a limit before we refund before an entity can get a full refund like one week before or one day before right before they go and get for each one famous I would go to book a hotel they say well you can cancel one week before and you get 100% it depends on the rates can I raise an order motion here like another issue yeah your should we talk about it should he just put a hotspot for this so I'm I'm rephrasing it like since we can have only one conversation at the time this well naturally be havior of what about this what about these is actually stopping the whole group and not only that the next person to you so I would say in order to make sure the discussion runs smoothly Italy should probably enforce the policy of writing down the issues without stopping the narrator otherwise our throughput is really 0.5 people kind of this yeah I mean that's a distortion of the of the online discussion if I'm interrupting the only conversation happening I'm actually stopping everything yeah good point good point yeah so it's a time for a small retrospective house is going now since we did the walkthrough and then we do a couple of more questions yep yep let's do it to it so who wants to start how's it going what do you think I can start so like this part I like better because this is what I mentioned previously that if someone reads out loud so maybe we now arrived you reading out the domain story a bit earlier than he realized but I think this serves the purpose of this online even storming really well so like when someone is reading out loud or the end and it is a basis for discussions I think I like it now better than 10 so far I mean then previously at the beginning of decision yes I think this exercise deserve its own book actually with the recipe to do it well because we saw that there's a lot of of things that are different when we are doing real-life even storming so there should be a list of yeah things to pay attention to like Alberto said when we break the conversation and stuff I doubt it that's really important I think there's a lot of things we noticed that needs to be written somewhere for people who once try the young man even storming yeah I feel like from from doing this like it it took a little while to get going but we are starting to get a little momentum and we're starting to figure this out and it is becoming very clear as she said makes him there that the flows are different for the online version versus the in-person version know whether this process actually works or not I think the jury's still out among everyone here or maybe not maybe I'm not speaking for everyone there but once we got started actually talking about it and going through the flow and having active disagreement yeah I think that's that's when things started to kick off and it made the entire process flow cool algorithm actually Maxine said something that I could relate to and it's actually my note at the at the top like I'm actually not happy with with the logo and and the name storming to this thing which is doesn't feel like a storming to me I mean it's is a online collaborative modeling session on top of the evening storming notation but the storming to me means means something something different and and we can we can't really have it like I mean I agree with Sophie that this is better because now we focus on on the other on the main flow activity we started to have in a discussion but discussion never got to the point of being storming so is I would say it's another thing it's just like we using the same notation trying trying to achieve some result and yeah well some result is achieved but I wouldn't use the storming thing like that I I have to meet that kind of protecting my my my brain cells my interesting yes there's no book to write Alberto that's right my name is just dog daddy and don't even think about it but no it is another thing I really like when you say like no it has different dynamics and and it should be tweaked around these dynamics in order to make it to make it flow dressed so many little tweaks in impression and we need a different set of tweaks for an online session like yeah maybe one one of the thing is actually something that we also in in our in the software design and process modeling when we do it in in-person we have some session we go with the similar approach to mob programming only one person is allowed to touch of me one person is allowed to speak but we need an a synchronous quite way to provide feedback so everybody can post hot spots and yeah but in a quiet way and that the modeler might be the only person able to yet so but a hot spot at the time without having that much of a conversation unless we are the model wants to start it because the conversation it's really really a lot of interruption in this in this scenario so we we might need to find it another discipline working at this Abby's lab yeah I was just gonna mention basically I mean not the same but I was kinda mentioned that we shouldn't compare from now I feel that we shouldn't compare with even storming so from now on is just using the same pattern here but I mean the visuals but but yeah it's it's an online brainstorming which is still fine well I do want to add in there one thing off the last meet of discussion where we talked about three types of culture or jape mentioned and what I do feel is missing here is the personal connection with people so we're just putting down here what we know but the real wisdom and potential is usually submerged into people and I cannot now I cannot do a lot of group dynamics to get that to get the design so Jase called it you had designing behavior right so we're now just passing in what we know but we cannot we kind of connect on a personal level and that bugs me a lot about the session and and that's why I cannot really go low and deep into the group dynamics and see where the conflicts arise because we don't have a lot of conflict in the way I would see it and in conflict comes learning becomes redesigning and that's what I'm really missing here so yeah you cannot really late to so it's not storming I agree with you on that part this does nothing kind of controversial except should we name the systems or not like we nobody's had a very different idea how about about how to sell tickets we're not we're not arguing about like no you should buy the tickets after the conference that's a disruptive idea join the conference and you paid the ticket later we all agree nor something we just yeah using this as an example but it was not supposed to trigger discussion I guess and it's not triggering any discussion about yet procedure little thing and we are we are basically measuring who knows the ticketing issues a little bit better than the other guys in this discussion so we're not we're not going into conflict here no no not as a with any vents storming real life that is the true power for me you're making the conflicts visible and then you dive into them to discover more and design your system better that's for me it's the power of realizing and storming so it sounds like that that's a to full problem as in one it's the domain that we've chosen to look at and to because the nature of the online system it's harder for us it's harder for this conflict to emerge yeah in a visible way anyway okay yeah so um shall we do some questions we've got from one from Stojan what would be the event checked online for prices that's an external event not the event that represents a state change of the system we are modeling do we need to model these kinds of events so that was a while back I think and wouldn't it be easier near to the traditional way if all participants are in the same room using mural that would benefit would have a digital version of a model out of the box what do you think of that part that would be a torture for me yeah yeah I would like to stand I would like to move around I would like to see people like if I'm not looking at you I'm looking at the screen I'm losing maybe I have a little icons with your face somewhere but I don't see your expression I don't know if you like what I'm doing right now I'm at the night.the like if you're appreciating what I'm doing and I have to wait for the next feed background to understand what's your emotion in this place this is actually creating a little bit of an extra cycle of uncertainty I am asking myself I'm too little and this is extra noise in the brain which is related to the tooling if people are smiling to me just giving me a gesture oh oh there - yeah let's go please this is totally missing and so I'm feeling a little bit less confident in the indie action because I don't know if I'm doing the right thing so if I hear you correctly if this tool actually creating a false sense of reality so a false sense in a way that you think that that will all align where we think that we agree but actually we're not because we cannot see each other's expressions I'm just absolutely yes but not only so I might think that everybody agrees because you're quiet maybe it just put your microphone in mute and just start looking for the button tool to switch it on so I might end up talking a little longer at the same time I have no feedback at all so it's just like I'm talking in an empty room and I'm looking a lot to say expression when when doing discussion if if people person is just raising in eyebrows oh that's a signal that maybe something is wrong I will wait by the board's carefully now I feel like I'm running blinded in in a room and and I don't know what people are thinking about what I'm saying and up and I hear this noise of my brain saying like what that people saying about what you said might be narcissistic I don't know but I am completely losing this so some people are happy with this they know what people are thinking a random anyway but for me I I need this this feedback try to understand am i starting on September little did I say something that the peace table somebody or maybe there's something because of they they they build the legacy or something I need to see this expression and well now is Laureys worship so ok no problem but in general I feel this pressure of not knowing not have my conduct not getting a smile or a disapproval eyebrows I'm completely blind and this is creating extra work for me yeah lost the dimension of sorry I had nonverbal cues yep which is which is like what is that 80% of communication is nonverbal yeah well you know 80% of all the statistics are made up yeah so we've got a few questions from Rebecca actually trying to ask her if she wants to ask me slide but the first one she said it is definitely slower but it is painful so what is the value of this tool we can move the stickies easier it's the zero yeah you can move to sticky feet here is that's the only thing we feel like that's the value of the tool because the second question is so remote mobbing works but people have developed protocols to make it work could this be something you need to do in order to make a truly collaborative is as possible without face to face yeah I'm assuming that I'm a full-time mobile and it works so I don't think I have the illusion that it's work so yeah that that's the idea of the book we need to write down the rules for this to work and and maybe name me differently yeah I would say my programming is actually a good source for ideas and indiscipline in this place and and we are mob modeling or whatever I can call it in when I run it like only one person in law allowed to touch and move things and multiple people giving giving feedback is one of the direction we are going in the real world and I think that and this is happening let's say for sudden minutes then is somebody else's responsibility that's a former that could go for it will like this but I think we need to understand exactly which are the real constraints in online model tool is is given to us because it's subtracting the way we are working in in in many ways but so not only the visible ones cool yeah so let's see we've got one more question coming up I think ya know we already discussed and the other one we already discussed two the other one was so how would you add in free tickets that bypass the normal payment process eg free tickets for speakers for giveaway I already gave our hot spots for that part so there are some Rebecca saying there are some remote more program patterns of Michael Keeling and Jill Ronde wrote about in agile 2019 you might look at this here at that for some ideas cool that sounds great yeah so do we want to continue and finish this or do we have enough experience doing this at the first time we can we can run another session of course with all these heuristics in to see how we can do different next time not call it event storming there's the thing that we didn't try which is actually applying the collaborative game patterns that I usually do so instead of going step by step on a large scale we we might try the other approach like well let's try to build it from the beginning or maybe let's try to build it from the end but be strict on the grammar yes it forces people to be on the same flow it might not make every single step more yeah annoying but if the hot spots are supposed to be silent but yeah visibly flashing in our eyes it could be honnest way to lead the conversation so giving the tooling and what we are seeing today I think that about that might be that one of the best combos or or a good starting point for a for leading the discussion but it needs yeah experienced practitioners like being having grammar through fluency in this in this pace so and that that's something that we could work decently like we've been doing remote bordering session we still don't call them storming we use the same notation it works when you have good experience when it's not so many people and we actually kept them confined to the development team not to the information exchange with the business people because because it's a torture for them just like yeah so do we want to try that now or because that sounds more like yeah remote modeling which now you mention it I did that and not even storming on Miro before so you want to try that out now or we might we might try to see how it how it works so let's say give me seven minutes to try to see the dynamics of trying to do it as quickly as I can and did you go to so [Music] if you could cancel your thing Barry and then already don't Alberto could you start your sharing in mirror your screen sharing a mirror so we can follow what you're doing okay so how do I do that so welcome left corner - this screen with a screen share icon you cannot Start screen share while the other participant is sharing yeah I still seeing this joint thing right right right oh yeah now you can do it over there okay no I can't I could start it here well this is also the thing of this tooling right so it's fantastic I had a great idea but doesn't work online and yeah it just started and I will follow you on my screen where you're okay so I'm going on on my mirror and that that's it okay and you sharing it yeah let's let's write so check them lighter prices should be price check yeah actually I just I don't wanna so I don't want to do this I'm trying to remove this I'm going freelancer way you called it like like taste I would like to be the freelancer I would like to have oh sorry where where is the legend now all right I wanted to be quick and I was lower okay so taking this bring up in the legend in here so yeah so the wanna ticket type selected okay eat here I will need the policy before that approaches ticket out of commander ticket I'm selected I need to move this stuff here and and here too so and I will have an event I need a policy so the policy might be to whenever ticket type is selected there might be yeah redirected to order page it's correct me if you don't like it or yeah okay and then I would say I think we all feel your pain when you need to rewrite something or so I'm actually looking for whenever ticket type is selected them now we gonna be display the the summary page server or well actually looks like redundant and we go for read model here and summary and a few other stuff so given this information that I see I'm a human I'm a freelancer here given what I see here I feel like okay I can go for a command and I will say like hell okay that's exactly like buy ticket so this will go into system when I have this I would like to have it I see a buying ticket system payment type selected tippet ticket type selected actually I would like to do this already and payment type selected that they say this is gonna be a former well all of this is displayed price so payment method and number and what else and ticket type yep so given this is clear I'm expecting this to be the form by in the ticket system I'm expecting the I'm expecting something that didn't happen here I'm expecting the ticket type to be reserved or the ticket to be reserved while I complete the porches does it make any sense yes so I I need now I need to move things around which is annoying here but I need to select the whole thing horrible and I moved this way I don't know if it's better in the real world but yes now I have a policy which is a connector in in between the policies just like maybe tickets I'm actually disagree with what I just don't know that I see this but I just like yeah payment policy for let's say for let's call it online payment policy without calling the products and it just like might be to kind of prepare the payment inside the payment provider so you basically recommending that if not even storming because all I need yeah as we discussed previously it doesn't make that much sense but adding these visuals so like I think this patterns in order to like modeling forward and design the architecture and stuff so these kids work so if you know the color feeling right yeah I could follow it because I know the color coming yep actually the color coding is a limit unknowing because of the color have been pre-selected already but we are having a discussion on on a format which is constraining the discussion to be in inside the color coding but but really the real thing that I've been doing I was a play in aggressive modeling mode that so I I know this domain a little so I could go fast but one of the interesting thing for me it's just like it I usually go that fast anyway doesn't matter if I know the domain or not I'm just trying really really quickly and then I get back and look at this it actually sucks so do you are missing this the part where I'm destroying my model so on on a five or a seven minute slot I run like hell because I want to get to the place where I get the money or what I want to get the place where I deliver the ticket to the attendees but I know there are some steps and the the color coding is forcing me to get through the steps okay but they my mind attitude is I'm not designing the system I'm actually running to the to the end and and then I get to step back and say like okay do I like what I've just done what the hell I did I I don't know what I'm doing honestly and so I might say like Ashley I might not be reserving this might not be the right ticket reserved already even actually cheaper other policy with which says like when the purchase is started I I temporarily set up a reservation and this is a reservation policy and it might be another parallel activity which is leaving you to payment if you selected an online payment thing if you selected an invoice thing then we need the business discussion with somebody saying like what do we do with invoice billing it might be depending on the customer or maybe I will reserve that the ticket for you for maybe two three weeks while I'm waiting for the payment it's a different thing and that's exactly one type of business choice when we need to talk with the business actually that's the only moment when we needed to have a business validation of one of our choices a good thing here is I started doing the hot spots while you were being busy right and you're not disturb you and just let you be moving on so I think that would that would be a one big heuristic once you try to do whatever it's called online if you don't stop a person explaining just write down your hot spots yep yeah that would be great so this actually reminds me of me Bruno and Thomas creating the workshop for the Uni Europe last year is there in Paris I was here but we needed to discuss it was about event storming of course what we needed to discuss our models so what are we talking about we actually did the same thing where he just went through the color coding and they went through their color coding and I went through my color coding and then we actually combined it but yeah there wasn't storming but just was putting it out your IDs in an event storming for month yes one of one of the great thing that might happen later is one if the color coding is consistent similar areas look very similar of course you still have to read this because if you change the name of the thing will still look like exactly the same color sequence but you can you can combine part in a little bit more easily and still look like cool that's a fantastic job even if no you just restricted the variability of the shapes it might be good to isolate sub processes put them in some other ways eaten up that's one of the things which is actually better than doing it in in the real world that's where the online tools are kind of shining isolates the process is putting in a box somewhere maybe connect them with arrows and and and some other things money team of dynamics yeah let let the person with the mouse in the hand but go as fast as possible and then collect the feedback with hotspots but yeah doing giving real-time feedback means like we stopping at everything okay cool so thank you for that Alberto so want me to stop sharing it now and just wrap this thing up said ok for everyone wait that's ok so see if you want to wrap up I think I just want to devote at most 10 minutes on just running through your one sentence s/m learn yes that the most important for you from today's session so can can we start with for instance Barry okay thanks so this is the easy one because I'm gonna get to say what everyone else has been saying no no but I definitely agree with the points of the burn rate but the one sentence would be one person that needs to lead the actual modeling and going through the flows and then anyone else that's observing should leave the hot spots and then that becomes once the flow is complete you can do another iteration and start addressing the hot spots that's definitely better than having everyone working in isolation and then not really having a focused discussion because it's the--it's nature it has to be led by one person you had each at each juncture okay thanks Maxime you want to share yeah maybe one thing we could try like when we do pair programming or programming well whenever someone has 90 the thing is that the this person has to give the keyboard to someone else and ask the person to type what they have in mind actually so and that would be an idea rather than letting Alberto putting his stickies on the board and it's that someone will do it for him and waiting for Alberto to say okay now put a blue sticky there and write that then put another one and put a wrench one and then a black player so there's kind of transmission going on and and like it could have their discussion between two person and nothing the others are also putting hot spots would be a good idea as well so that's something we can try maybe yeah so interesting thing so I think everything has already been set I'm really missing the personal touch here it can be really useful [Music] can be really useful the way we did it at the last time and I think it's it's still better than nothing if your remotes but it takes some time to get used to and to get the agreement straight and we didn't do and make this agreement start and there was a great comment about Stephen Crump just now on the chat that says can this really be a tryout with experience even storming facilitating norming the domain already should we do this in a real life thing and I think it would be a lot more interesting if we really take some business domain experts and the data person and see how it work out them because I think we are already feel restricted to this I cannot imagine people that haven't done this before or the business people I usually work with and that's people who usually don't have time and I'm not sure if they would have time for this for me I probably won't won't do it okay thanks just talking about the limitation I would say it's already been said but if we reframe the problem is we need to model remotely well let's try to get on the positive side which is a I think the most important thing is we need a different type of dissidents and the discipline is going to be heavily influenced by the tooling I would say some of the thing that we might have in Miro might not be working with draw dot IO or some other tools so we need to actually really be able to tailor the thing on the technological stack so we can make a lot of improvement in this place and we need discipline at the same time discipline is a cut off so like my programming require discipline and needs really motivated to do more programming it even this worship like oh you need to have discipline to be part of it what does that's violating one of the answer for the video we need it to be easy for other people who to join in and is easier on the big picture clearly than this I would say discipline might cut off occasional contributors because what that does to complicated for me overall the business side you only can write the policy they're gonna feel like they're doing something wrong most of the time which is stopping the the spontaneous contribution I I can totally relate to all of your takeaways actually so for my side it's just I wouldn't I definitely wouldn't recommend to do even storming online but I'm very very happy that we yes which I did also if there is a need to do that for some reasons I wouldn't recommend it for beginners definitely not so this is not for beginners I mean it's not decision also this triggered me an idea for our next session or not next session in the in the future what we could definitely try out online is its domain storytelling so I maybe will contacts that fun because it is something that I think it would work online this session just triggered me this idea so I think that's it so I'm really happy that we try this out thanks for thanks for joining for everyone so for all our attendees and for all our panel presenters thank you very much guys have a wonderful evening yeah thank you

Channel: Virtual Domain-Driven Design

Views: 10,506

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Domain-driven design, meetup

Id: CbPEibNUe0s

Length: 108min 49sec (6529 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 21 2020