Speaker 1: Today we're going to be speaking
to Harry Siegel, a clinical psychologist and senior lecturer in the psychology department
at Cornell University, as well as the Department of Psychiatry at Cornell while medical school. It's so great to have you on. You know, just to start with something so
the audience knows you're going to give us some of your impressions about, President
Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump here. You're not coming at this from a Partizan
perspective or looking at the politics of the individuals. We're going to be talking about your observations
of them specifically with regard to speech patterns and other observable things through
media. So can you talk a little bit about what we
can glean from looking at videos of individuals, and what would we be beyond our ability to
glean? Speaker 4: Absolutely. I think before we even begin with that very
good question, I think we should step back just for a moment and think about American
culture. We are a culture that, is afraid of death. Now, maybe all human beings are, but our culture
really, worships the youth and ideas of immortality or people living a very long time. The other issue that American culture has
is we're fascinated by mental illness, but we don't understand it. Very well at all, actually. What we have had in our culture is either
denying mental illness or grabbing on to diagnoses and holding onto them really hard. So, for example, there are people who are
on the autistic spectrum. But in these days, if a child is, loves math
and doesn't have great social skills, he's almost or she's almost automatically labeled
as being on the spectrum. You know, there are people with real attentional
issues. It's it's hard to pay attention. It's actually something we have to work on. But now when someone has difficulty focusing
on something they automatically go to A.D.D.. Right. Without really understanding what that means. And so now when we're thinking about Donald
Trump and Joe Biden, we're really looking through two of the, the most, in a way, the
most vulnerable things for Americans to think about objectively. Age and mental illness. And it's captured in this, in this, campaign
that's coming up. And, yes, I, I may have my own political views,
but that's not what I'm here to talk about today. It's more about the observation of behavior. Speaker 1: So let's start with in terms of
the behaviors on the side of Trump, we regularly see what some have described, including Doctor
John Gartner es phonemic paraphrases Donald Trump, just getting being unable to say certain
words or getting parts of words right and seemingly getting stuck. There's increased focus on the change to Trump's
speech patterns, his gait over time, and a number of other different things. Getting historical items wrong like, for example,
Obama's currently the president or Biden defeated Obama or Nikki Haley rather than Nancy Pelosi
were in charge of Capitol security January 6th. I could go on. We have this category. We also have on the side of Joe Biden commentary
that he looks frail and is walking in a particular way that signals frailty. However, we define that that he sometimes
seems to trail off or mutter, and that he sometimes seems confused about what he's trying
to say. I think that encapsulates 90% of the claims
that are made about the two individuals. What do you see? Speaker 4: Well, that's a nice summary. Let let's start with Trump, if we can, because. What's complicated about Trump is that this
cognitive decline, and you've noted some really great examples at this point. They're intermittent hmhm. I've noticed that he seems to be better if
he's interviewed with an easy interviewer in the daytime. Hmhm lot of these slippages we're seeing are
during his rallies at night. Yes. And and this is a something that's been observed
in many, people suffering from early stages of dementia. And that's called sundowning. So if you have an elderly relative in a nursing
home, it's always better to go visit them in the afternoon, not in the evening. In fact, even better in late morning. So it may be that Trump is having more and
more difficulties at night. The other thing is that because it's intermittent,
it's not difficult to see 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking what seems to be normal. And I think he does speak. Normally in a sense of I'm not calling people's
concern like mixing up Nancy Pelosi, with Nikki Haley. But what I have seen, and I think Doctor Gardner
alluded to this too, is the complexity of his language has changed. So when he's speaking what appears to be coherently,
it's almost like he's gumming together phrases that he repeats over and over again. Now, he's always had a tendency to do this,
but if you go back, as I have to, looking at interviews in 2016, he was clearly more
crisp. He was more complex than he is now. So that, you know, the the decline in the
complexity of language and these intermittent slippages, which I'm really afraid of because
they always lead to more. So we may not be seeing it every time he speaks,
but if he were to be elected a year from now, how would he be functioning? Speaker 1: Yeah. And in fact, the, the, the frequency, even
over the last six months, it seems to me, has changed, where sometimes it would take
a few weeks for him to make a mistake about who's president once or twice, and then sometimes
now he'll do it 3 or 4 times in a weekend of rallies. And there's a sense that it's happening more
frequently. Speaker 4: Yes. It's it's it's really frightening. And and look, the his from a political standpoint,
his decision not to partake in debates was very smart politically because he appeared
above the fray. But I think we can surmise, right, that he
was afraid of debating. You kidding me? Two hours on stage in the evening with someone
like Chris Christie coming after him. So, you know, we have some tests coming up. There's going to be a speech at the convention
that will be at night. Yes. I don't know how he's going to get out of
debating Biden, but he's going to try, is my guess. So. So will we see the increase in these problems? I hope so. I hope people like you and, and other sort
of Trump watchers. But we know about this media environment. It's very hard to get through to people who
support him, given where they're getting their news. Speaker 1: So let's talk now a little bit
about Joe Biden and what you observed there. Speaker 4: Yeah. I. And I as I as we begin the interview, if
I were concerned about Joe Biden's cognitive abilities, I would be I would be saying it
with as much alarm as I am about Trump. I was very impressed with his state of the
Union speech, his performance there. First of all, it's at night. Second of all, it was long. And then lastly, he was he was incredible. He was quick. He his his his, badgering the Republicans
and catching, Marjorie Taylor Greene was really impressive. And you really can't do that if you're suffering
from major cognitive impairments. And I was so disturbed that morning because,
marginally, Marjorie Taylor Greene predicted that she said something like. I don't know what cocktail they'll put him
on. And you know how he'll read the teleprompter? He he was, I think, very, very sharp. Speaker 1: So let me talk about that a little
bit, because indeed, the next day, even that night, Sean Hannity, other right wing media
outlets were really alluding to uppers, right? I mean, that's what we're talking about here,
some kind of stimulant. I, I have a passing knowledge of caffeine,
right? I mean, I'm not an expert in this, but there
are certainly, you know, I know people who have used amphetamines for studying help. Is there a substance that would allow you
in the duration that Biden gave this speech to cover for what might be that type of decline
that's being alleged? Could such an uproar even give him what he
had that night? Speaker 4: Now, David, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm a psychologist, so I don't prescribe medication. But of course, I work with patients and I
work closely with psychiatrists. Yes. I am not aware of amphetamines being used
for patients with dementia. And and in fact, a true amphetamine could
have disastrous effects on someone elderly. The only thing I can think of would be something
like Ritalin, which is a psycho stimulant that increases attention. But. But Biden doesn't have issues with attention. Speaker 1: I mean, what about, like, caffeine
pills just to be more energized? Could, I mean, I what I want to do is just
be thorough here about the allegation. Speaker 4: I see I just don't think there's
any basis for that. And what would be wrong with a cup of coffee
anyway? Before giving an important speech. I, I think, you know, it's it's it's like
it's like Greene saying that he was on some cocktails. You know, it's it's gotten to the point now
where people can just make things up, and then somehow it's repeated. Listen, this is a guy who who spent all night
traveling to Ukraine in a war. This is someone who went to the the, the cabinet,
the defense cabinet in Israel and debated with him for two hours. Do you think? Don't you think word would get out by now
that he was confused or flustered or unable to put sentences together? Hearing anything like that from anyone? And yet. There are people in in in Trump world who
who are part of his team that are very disturbed by the way that he thinks. And David, one thing I just want to remind
everyone, one of the one of Trump's really great talents, I don't know how he does it. You know, it's there are interpersonal qualities
that we can't measure as psychologists or humanists. But he has this ability. And maybe this is related to the genius of
marketing, which seems to be his only real genius, is that he can just repeat things
over and over again until people stop paying attention to it. I think we've forgotten about how disturbed
he was before people started noticing this cognitive decline. I mean, this is somebody who who was, who
in 2016 was saying that he knew more than the generals, that he was an expert on the
Bible. You know, when I first saw that, I it made
me think of, you know, Muhammad Ali, who would say I'm the greatest. And he kind of was. But it made me think with Trump, it was a
little bit like P.T. Barnum, you know, I'm the best. And then I started to realize. He believed it. He believes the lies that he tells. So we're talking about a very narcissistic
person with crazy psychotic delusions about himself. Adding to that Pathological lying, which is
off the scale. I mean, it it surprises me that people don't
talk about that anymore. But with Trump, he just wears us down until
it becomes almost normal. But it's really not. So I think that this cognitive decline is
being another layer of danger on top of what is already a very erratic, mentally challenged
person who shouldn't be anywhere near the white House. Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about
some of the physical observations? And if they're simply beyond your area of
expertise, that's fine. But again, with Joe Biden, the idea of the
frailty, the wearing sneakers to avoid falling, etc. when it comes to Trump, it's been observed
that his gait has changed significantly. Where it's now this wider stance, his right
leg sometimes drags. He hinges forward at the waist when standing
in a way that almost seems to defy gravity. It's very strange when you see it from the
side. Is there anything there of substance to you? Speaker 4: You don't. I'm really not a neurologist. But as as somebody in his late 60s, and I
know I have friends in their 70s, you know, the body begins to to wear down in your 60s. I like to say that I tell my students it's
being in their 60s is like driving a six year old car. You know, you have to, do the maintenance,
and it doesn't go up the hill quite as fast as it used to. And I think with Biden, someone who is known
to exercise daily, and who does seem a bit frail and, and there is something he's not
as crisp as he was physically or even in his pronunciation of words. Now he's, you know, he's had a stammer since
he was a boy. And that's where a lot of that comes from. But I didn't see any decline in sharpness,
say, in the state of the Union. But but no, I, I, I see the frailty when he
walks and Trump that's been going on for a while. Right. That there is that strange walking down the
steps. We saw him. I think that Trump's grandiosity has led him
to take terrible care of himself. And although he can find doctors to lie about
his fitness. You know, you can't help but see. And so I don't know if he has sciatic nerve
problems. Is that why he's got that strange hip gait
that he has? I it doesn't appear that he's had a stroke,
but again, that's that's not my, my expertise, but, but you see that what I began with this
notion that Americans can't think about mental health in complex ways, and we don't want
to think about aging and death to Americans. Biden looks much older than Trump. But to me. Trump looks like he's faltering in a very
dangerous way. Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting you mention
that, because I do think that if you zoom out a little, even though they're only a few
years apart, Trump speaks more confidently, probably as a result of the personality characteristics. You're talking about the dyeing his hair and
and tanning his face does. I mean, it's like he does sort of look like
a clown, but also compared to Biden, he sometimes does look like he's projecting more strength
and a little more vigor. I think if Trump allowed his hair to go gray
and didn't die his face, there might be a different perspective on that to some degree. Speaker 4: Yes, I think you're absolutely
right. And you know that the hair color and the and
the the, the the tanning, whatever he puts on him, those are cues, right? They cue Americans thinking that he's younger. Right? You know, I don't know about you, but I. I
always like it when Biden puts on his aviator sunglasses. It's a. Speaker 1: Similar effect. Speaker 4: It's a similar effect. Exactly. Yeah. But it's also a more you know, Biden is a
more honest person. He's very clear about who he is. Speaker 1: Out of curiosity, I'd like to see
Biden with the dyed hair in the fake tan, just to see how much more vigor he he projects
now, I think. I think you're pointing out a lot of the,
of the circumstances that are making this have the appearance that it has. And I know that there will be people in the
audience who may agree or who may disagree, but I really do appreciate your perspective
on it. We've been speaking with Harry Siegel, who's
a clinical psychologist and senior lecturer both in psychology and psychiatry. And I really appreciate your time and insights
today. Thank you. Speaker 4: Such a pleasure to be with with
you, David. Thanks so much.
