Trump on trial: New York vs. Donald Trump Day 10 Highlights

but we start right here in New York City where a lunch break just began after a pretty wild morning at Trump's trial it's the former president accused of a crime but today's proceedings have been focused squarely on his former fixer Michael Cohen his credibility his likeability and the lengths he went to to protect his boss as Election Day 2016 approached Cohen hasn't even taken the stand but his name has already come up more than a thousand times at this trial so far I want to bring in BC's Yasmin vugi and who's outside the courthouse Paul Butler is a former Federal prosecutor Georgetown law professor and an MSNBC legal analyst Jim Vina served as White House Deputy Chief of Staff under President Obama and led his 2012 reelection campaign and Danny savalos joins me here in studio he's a criminal defense attorney and an MSNBC legal analyst there is so much to get to Danny it's been Keith Davidson on the S right but the focus keeps coming back again and again and again to Michael Cohen a thousand times he's been name checked in this trial um a lot of what we heard hasn't been stre flattering but is that actually part of the state's strategy here here's the thing cooperating Witnesses or people like Michael Cohen who is cooperating Witnesses they always have problems and in fact in the grand scheme of things Witnesses like Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson really aren't even all that bad in the spectrum of cooperating Witnesses these are often people who are Harden criminals who may be brought into court in shackles and in prison gear you don't have that with Michael Cohen or Keith Davidson but the people know that these are problematic Witnesses because they seem sidy Michael Cohen seems impulsive rude and possibly even uh somebody who makes bad decisions all on his own the people know this so they're getting out in front of it they're doing the right thing what you should always do with Cooperators what I'm sure Paul Butler did many times is you get in front of the problem you bring it out in your direct examination that these people are problematic the people know that Davidson's going to say these bad things about Cohen they know because they're asking the questions about Cohen and it's good for the people to get this out in the open instead of letting the defense expose it and the people look like they've been hiding this the whole time all right Paul the the defense has spent the last hour or so trying to discredit Keith Davis and of course the lawyer for the two women at the heart of this and and they want to show that he cannot tie the storm Daniel's payoff back to Donald Trump directly do you think that they have been successful in undermining that testimony somewhat so the cross-examination so far has emphasized that it's Donald Trump who's on trial and Keith Davidson never had any personal contact with Donald Trump one of the first questions Davidson was asked on Cross was whether he had ever seen Donald Trump in person before this trial and Davidson said this was the first time so he's testified that he believes Michael Cohen was acting on behalf of trump but the defense is going to suggest that there's Reasonable Doubt yasine tell me what you can then about how both sides have tried to use Davidson's testimony to make their case it it was Chris I have to say a really fascinating uh morning to say the least when we talk about the direct from the prosecution uh with Davidson um they talked about really the timeline they talked about the pseudonyms that were used right the Loyalty um for Michael Cohen his fervent kind of commitment to making sure this deal went through his loyalty to Donald Trump in Communications with Davidson and making sure the payoff went through but then also his difficulties in communicating with Davidson and Dylan Howard having to act as an intermediary or a a mediator because Michael Cohen was becoming so difficult to to communicate with and Davidson felt as if he was um not being truthful uh with him about why it was they were trying to delay the payment and we know allegations have been made that it was Donald Trump in fact who wanted to delay the payments until after the election depending on whether or not he won or lost um that election it was interesting to see that entire timeline Chris um laid out and then when we went into cross-examination it was all about chipping away at the credibility of Davidson as an attorney right his list of clientele his roster of clients that he has served going after for instance Lindsay Lohan when she was in um rehab they wanted to Chip Away really at The credibility and they did that for quite some time bie really kind of went at Davidson for quite some time in his cross-examination of him and there was a risk I think for the jury in seeing that and saying okay we know what you're trying to get let's get back to the matter at hand and when bie eventually circled back to what they were dealing with they talked about for instance the retainer that that Davidson took from Karen McDougall and that the initial agreement between Karen mcdou and bovie was for I believe um a 25% retainer that retainer then increased to 35% making Boby making Davidson excuse me seem as if um he were out more for money than anything else it was a real interesting morning I would say and and I think the big moment for the prosecution was when Davidson had emailed Howard on the night of 2016 and said what have we done and Howard emails back my God and this was the night in which we learned that Donald Trump had become the next president of the United States in 2016 a real moment Chris inside that inside that court for the prosecution and understanding what had led up to that moment just two weeks by the way prior the email beginning two weeks prior on October 26th as laid out Chris by the prosecution does that moment uh Danny that yasman just pointed out say unequivocally to jurors at least in the minds of these two guys they knew who was behind this and it was Donald Trump they knew who they were trying to protect and it was Donald Trump yes but the people know that David Dennison is not giving them Trump's involvement they must have more evidence of Trump's involvement that's the one something that's glaringly absent it seems to me the people's plan here is to First establish the element of their case that is the transaction from Michael Cohen to Stormy Daniels and then presumably they're going to shore up the Trump involvement part later that'll obviously come from Michael Coen it may come from other places maybe hope Hicks we don't know yet but they are trying to lock in and I think they put a lot of evidence in it's almost indisputable at this point that Michael Cohen paid Stormy Daniels this money but David Dennison and even David pecker to some degree is never going to give the people absolutely Donald Trump's involvement and they know that what they're getting from David Dennison is irrefutable proof at this point in my view that there was a transaction between from Michael Cohen a payment of money to Stormy Daniels and that he brokered the entire CD Affair and it is a CD Affair it's not necessarily bad for the prosecution they want them to see every element of it David Dennison gives us an gives lawyers like me an introduction into an area of law practice I never knew existed which is the underbelly of celebrity payoffs for silence something I never knew existed all right so uh Paul it was really interesting to follow even on our document we're not in court any of us but the prosecution also then brought up Stormy Daniels denial that she had a relationship with Trump she signed a document we think maybe to to that end something Trump his himself posted about right before the trial started so what did we learn put this in perspective for us and why the prosecution even brought it up so um Trump has suggested that stormmy Daniels just like Michael Cohen is a liar she'll say anything because she doesn't like Donald Trump and so at one point she engaged in this kind of lawyerly answer about her relationship with Donald Trump the truth seems to be that they had a one night stand in terms of sex and after that they had something like a a business friendship I guess you could call it and so when she says very specifically that she didn't have a um Extended romantic relationship with him the defense will suggest that's just this leazy lawyer being sleazy once more being very lawyerly but not really trying to uh come up with the truth so again they're just trying to suggest that this guy is an extortionist uh they've also presented or asked questions to elicit that he threatens high-profile people like Donald Trump uh he threatens them by threatening to expose their secrets unless they pay them off so the defense wants the jury to think that the hush money payments were not about helping Trump win the election which is the prosecution's claim uh the defense wants the jury to think this was an oldfashioned Shakedown scheme committed by a sleazy lawyer who the prosecutors are presenting as a star witness Jim let's talk about the politics of this this deal between Cohen and Davidson to hide stormmy Daniels story was signed on October 27th that's less than two weeks before election day and and honestly people were already voting so if that story came out at that moment is it reasonable to think it could have changed enough Minds that it swings the election oh absolutely Chris because remember what's happening around that you have the Access Hollywood tape you have kind of all of this happening as voters are making up their mind in the final part of the election we know as political professionals that up to 10% of Americans make their minds up in the final week or so and so if you're the Trump campaign or you're Michael Cohen you just cannot allow this to get out there and that's why they did this it is absolutely clear from a campaign perspective you just could not have this going coming out right in the middle of an election in the final days when voters are actually to your point voting every single day so people like Michael Cohen are are hired to to make this go away and that's clearly what happened let me make an argument on the other side that this is no longer the 60s or the 70s that this is not uh a case where a presidential candidate goes on a boat named Monkey Business with a woman who is not his wife and finds himself in trouble as a candidate um you're convinced that it would have made a difference because remember how close that election was we're talking just thousands of votes in a few key States and you know it just goes into the entire narrative that the Clinton campaign at the time was trying to move that Donald Trump was shady and had all these problems and and was a Shyer and this is this would feed that narrative especially Chris around the Access Hollywood I mean this would have been a two-part uh series here to show what this guy is and who he is to these swing Women Voters who ended up going away from Clinton to Trump in the final days of that election after the Comey letter on day 10 of the Donald Trump election interference hush money criminal trial the sleazy underbelly taking Center Stage that whole scheme to catch and kill stories specifically to help the Trump campaign was exposed again a wealth of evidence from lawyers a porn star and a tabloid reporter that illustrate the Frantic scramble to keep the whole project going to stop it from going up the rails ahead of election day and the chaos that ensued when the hush money payments came to light on the stand right now is the man named Doug Dow he's a tech expert who works at the DA's office he comes after hours of rather extraordinary testimony from Keith Davidson the jury saw the agreement between David Dennison and Peggy pet those were pseudonyms used by Donald Trump and stormmy Daniels alongside a side letter written by Keith Davidson that as he puts it decodes the agreement between the two and specifically mentions Donald Trump the deal was done before Donald Trump's election night upset a shocker to both Keith Davidson and National inquire editor Dylan Howard NBC news reports this on the conversation via text between those two men quote Keith Davidson text the editor and chief as a national Inquirer around 3:00 a.m. eastern on the night of the 2016 election quote what have we done Keith Davidson texted oh my God Dylan Howard texted him that night asked what he meant in his text Keith Davidson said quote this was sort of Gallow humor he said there was an understanding between the two of them that quote our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of Donald Trump Keith Davidson also also recalled Michael Cohen's frustration when he learned that he would not be going to Washington with Donald Trump after he won Davidson said he got a call from Michael Cohen who said something to the effect of quote Jesus Christ can you effing believe I'm not going to Washington after everything I've done for that effing guy I've saved that guy's bleep so many times you don't even know adding that effing guy is not even paying me back the $130,000 referring to the hush money Michael Cohen had paid stormmy Daniels Keith Davidson also testified to the efforts by Michael Cohen to keep stormy Daniel silent as reporter swarmed around the story in early 2018 he says Michael Cohen texted him this quote Keith the wise men all believe the story is dying and don't think it's smart for her to do any interviews let her do her thing but no interviews at all with anyone he said Michael Cohen was in quote pants on fire mode as stormmy Daniels made media appearances saying quote we were trying to thread a needle and hold off a breach and all the penalties that would come with that where Cohen could file an arbitration or Sue stormmy that would be a whole other disaster he added that Michael Cohen threatened to quote re legal hell down on her during cross-examination team Trump sought to poke holes in Keith Davidson's credibility highlighting other cases he has worked on involving his celebrity clients NBC News put it like this Emil BBY Trump's attorney is highlighting how sey Davidson's world was by bringing up his past clients and the fact that he was investigated by state and federal authorities for allegedly extorting Hulk Hogan yes it was Hulk Hogan day in the ex-president's criminal trial it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends with us at the table New York Times investigative reporter Suzanne Craig she's back from inside the courthouse also in court today watching it in person our friend former top prosecutor at the Department of Justice Andrew wisman along with former Brooklyn prosecutor Charles Coleman and MSNBC correspondent my colleague gasmin vuan is in lower Manhattan outside the courthouse for us yes may I start with you um it has been quite a day to say the least uh Nicole I want to talk quickly about the individual who's on the stand now somewhat of an expert witness and I think it's an important context as you think about um an expert witness talking about how it is that they went to um come upon some of these secretly um secret phone calls in which Michael Cohen recorded and I think it's important because it establishes how it is they actually were able to obtain these secret phone calls right and they're putting this testimony the last 60 Minutes of Court we got about 30 minutes until the end of court so making sure this expert witness testifies towards the end of the day for the jury to understand how it is They Came Upon all of this information these receipts per se um this evidence per se that has been admitted by the prosecution let's talk quickly though Nicole through some of what we heard uh between both Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson and I think there was a lot of back and forth it seemed and kind of contentious behavior and interactions between both Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson I want to read some of it for you if I can talking about why it was that Dylan Howard acted as an intermediary between Keith Davidson um and Michael Cohen at one point uh Keith Davidson says he can be very aggressive guy and aggressive in the Pursuits to protect his client saying that we would bankrupt her and reing legal hell down upon her don't mess with us and I changed that word mess to cuz it was originally something else you don't know who you're messing with much of the testimony that we heard today from Keith Davidson and especially in the cross-examination from the former president's attorneys Nicole was all about discrediting the prosecution's witnesses right it was about discrediting Michael Cen it's about it was about discrediting Keith Davidson and it was about discrediting Stormy Daniels in different ways when it comes to Keith Davidson it's much of what you talked about right is about discrediting him when it comes to some of his clientele right kind of an ambulance Chaser per se of the celebrity culture right clients like Hulk Hogan going after uh Lindsay Lohan when she was in rehab discrediting um his testimony and the things that he said saying that Michael Cohen was being directed uh by Donald Trump to act to to obtain the hush money um that was handed over to Stormy Daniels and then Stormy Daniels seeming as if um she was uh had an ax to grind because Donald Trump had not cast her in The Apprentice going so far as to say that she was going on Jimmy Kimmel because she wanted to advance her career for instance kind of setting up how this was going to go when it comes to some of the star witness testimony that we will likely get from Michael Cohen um from stormmy Daniels as well the one thing though that I will say is that the prosecution successfully showed the receipts before the cross-examination and I say this because there was a moment in which they talked about David Dennison right the pseudonym that was used for Donald Trump that was also revealed to be used for Hulk Hogan as well and they asked whether or not David Dennison signed the agreement between Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels when that $130,000 was paid to Stormy Daniels and the prosecution Nicole was the one who first revealed that to the jury it was that which the which which um which Donald Trump's attorneys ended their cross-examination with but it was important I think for the prosecution to bring that up to say listen we know this happened right we know David Denison did not sign uh this agreement but then subsequently it was what the prosecution ended excuse me the defense ended their cross-examination on um it seems to be the strategy with David pecker and Keith Davidson to say these guys are mixed up with Shady characters it wasn't just this way with Donald Trump when it when it came to pecker being on the stand they did this to Arnold Schwarzenegger and and in Keith Davidson's case they seem to try to dirty him up I I I wonder how effective that is when these are people that Donald Trump was involved in not Alvin brag right it there was a point this morning and early this afternoon where you're saying what what's going on here and I have to say they went much harder after Keith Davidson than they did David pecker and we can talk about that in a moment we've been we've been sort of chatting about that but I think where they're going because on one hand you'd think they would have just stopped at Keith Davidson have you ever met Donald Trump right no because they've got to prove this conspiracy and when you when you distill this case it still comes down to there's going to be a conspiracy but then you've got to get to the falsification of the business so you would have thought they would have stopped there and it became apparent to me as they were going through the the the cross of Keith Davidson and just how vicious it was that I think they're trying to make Keith Davidson and Michael Cohen out to be these two Scoundrels that were conspiring and Donald Trump is the victim they got into this huge what of an extortion plot that he was being extorted and you got into back and forth it was incredible between Donald Trump's lawyer and Keith Davidson where he kept saying well did you extort this person or that person and he finally said I had a civil agreement for which there was payment I'm paraphrasing he goes I'm not extorting anybody but that kept coming up over and over and I think that was sort of the the storyline that emerged to me that this is potentially where they're going with this I'm curious what what Andrew thought but that's sort of where we were sort of landing on that as we were talking um so I agree I mean I was struck by if you think about sort of what happened today it should have happened with David pecker and so the surprising thing was there was a very very vociferous cross um and there there was it was you know there was fireworks in the courtroom um but you were like to what end um you know the well and I guess that's my point so so say you Pro Beyond A Reasonable Doubt these guys are scuzzy so what Trump was in business with these guys so so you have David pecker on the stand and he's not cross that way but he under his own testimony says oh yeah we were um intentionally defaming people I was intentionally supporting a candidate and it was all secret and it was to get somebody elected I mean it was it was the most shocking you want to talk about SLE factor I mean it was sort of incredible your partner was oh Trump yeah well that was he's a principal and who did you have the deal with Donald Trump um so but there was none of that and so it was interesting to me that the choice was made when there was an easy cross and a polite Cross of of Davidson just to say as you said to just say you didn't deal with my client at all everything that you know came through Michael Cohen or somebody else so you just don't have anything to add to the sort of false documents um and so instead there was a lot of drama which I agree is going to be used as a distraction and closing to say look they're really extorting him by the way that's not a defense it's sort of a it's a distraction ction defense um the but just to focus on what was the import of Davidson it is how you started if I had to sum up the actual import of today it was the quote what have we done there was no question that he was saying and it wasn't just his testimony he everything he said today was in a document it was in an email or it was in a text or it was in a written agreement so he was there was no way to really attack him in terms of his direct testimony everything was in writing and what did the prosecution need from him so what they got out of him was this was about the election I mean it was and um even on Cross where they said you knew that you needed the leverage and you had leverage before the election and not after and he goes absolutely I mean that's not a cross point that is that is a that's the conspiracy and this is day 10 of Donald Trump's criminal trial the witnesses the receipts today prosecutors began by actually arguing that the defendant should be held in contempt again for new fresh gag order violations even after he lost the last gag order Clash on Tuesday prosecution looking at statements that Trump put out about witnesses as well as attacking the jury itself prosecutors say Trump's violations are corrosive to the fair trial that he deserves and that the system requires they also accuse him of of creating an air of Menace that could affect these jurors also denouncing persistent and escalating rhetoric now the judge found that Trump lost his previous defense about this ruling that he did violate the gag order fining him about $99,000 and that was just this week now Trump has clearly broken the rules I say that again not as a criticism but based on what we have observed in the trial what the judge has ruled here he was just last night I don't think there's ever been a more conflicted judge crooked and conflicted and I'm unconstitutionally gagged he gagged me so I'm not even supposed to be I would say talking to you because he gagged me Trump there trying to play up the gagging while of course the very speaking he's doing about the trial would suggest he doesn't seem all that gagged that's the reality component then there's legal component the judge today told Trump's lawyer nobody forced your client to speak to which the Trump defense lawyer said I I agree with that but he's running for president he has to be able to go speak so this was the back and forth and this is what we have covered before the unusual challenges of a defendant candidate now Trump was apparently displeased with his own lawyer shaking his head at the exchange the judge has not yet ruled on this particular instance but he did say his recent as Tuesday that there could be jail as a punishment if there are enough violations the prosecution then went back to the case at hand the questioning of a key witness the lawyer for some of the women involved in this Karen McDougall and Stormy Daniels that is Keith Davidson he helped broker the original secret payments to keep things secret the nd's now they have had their history with Trump and that is part of the trial although that history itself is not what creates the crime it is whether there was business fraud and a campaign coverup of those deals so this witness Davidson recounted his experience with then Trump lawyer Michael Cohen confirming Cohen was working directly for Trump that this wasn't some madeup side deal which is one of the ways the Trump defense team has tried to S doubt about Cohen now what you had on the stand again today and what this jury was listening to was confirmation of the storyline which is damning for Trump and that's before Cohen ever takes the stand the whole plot burying these stories because there was an election coming in November 16 now remember the Wall Street Journal did get the catch and kill agreement with McDougall the former Playboy Playmate who you see there on the screen this was a big story this was in rert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal and very few people could try to dismiss it as fake news here you have the legal version of that reporting with Davidson the lawyer who did the deal saying that Cohen was quote very upset that all of that went down in close proximity to the election of of 2016 now why does that matter this is again why it's more than a fraud the burden on the prosecution is getting that other crime I've told you about it and we've had just last night lawyers on who talked about whether that's going to be an uphill battle but it's that campaign crime and so the evidence there is bad for Trump even if it sounds obvious if you follow the news you may know about all this you may know he tried to bury it and of course it was related of the campaign but memories aren't good enough at a trial the only thing that people are supposed to consider is the evidence so your personal memory of living through the 16 campaign if you were a juror would not be what you use you can only use the evidence presented and I will tell you this has been an effective couple of days for the prosecution because they don't look biased they don't look like they're reaching they are literally using Trump and his lawyer and the people around them and their cont contemporaneous statements at the time to continue to establish and reestablish what appears to be a BAS fact that the campaign was what motivated this now Trump did win that election he didn't get more votes but this is again a country with the rule of law and under our laws we have this thing called The Electoral College where even though he got less total votes he won the Electoral College he won in this states that as you know made him president Davidson testifies that he thought the catch and kill scheme was key to what we know was a narrow result it was that night that Davidson texted what have we done to The Inquirer Chief and they respond oh my God Davidson said there was an understanding our activities may have assisted the campaign of trump Davidson also described today a despondent Michael Cohen after the election because Cohen did more than most people around Trump and did some of the Dirty Work that other people didn't want to do and yet he was offered nothing not a social secretary job not a junior PR job not a assistant to the press secretary job say nothing of doj or other powerful posts that he might have had in his mind he got zero now this is interesting because again when you're doing a trial you have to deal with all the evidence not just the evidence that's good for your side and this is something that we may see Trump's defense lawyers seize on the idea that Cohen was so mad so upset about a whole range of things the one I'm about to show you but also his later incarceration that maybe that has clouded how he describes what happened with Trump so here's that testimony Cohen told Davidson according to this testimony today I can't believe I'm not going to Washington I've saved that guy's blank so many times and then there was a cross exam and this was more tense today according to people in the room we have the words we report on that I was there Tuesday our colleagues are there today and what was described as a tense and escalating moment was Trump's defense attorneys trying to say well maybe this guy this supposed witness who I've just told you is confirming things and the texts do suggest accuracy but they suggested that he is a quote serial extorter who shook down celebrities that that's all Keith Davidson is about and how can you trust someone like that as the times described the depiction now for the first time the jury also heard Michael Cohen's voice prosecutors playing these recordings that at the time were secret it turned out to be quite interesting and now turned out to be criminal evidence Donald Trump could lose this case he could be convicted he could be sent to jail he could have a mistrial he could be acquitted we don't know what's going to happen but we can fairly say that the type of conversations he had were so bad that they become criminal evidence that's quite something for a former president here's one from 2018 who was president at the time as Cohen told Davidson I can't even tell you how many times he said you know I hate the fact that we did it and my comment to him was what every person you spoke to said it was the right thing to do that he being Trump and the thing being these payments now this corroborates what I've told you the da needs to prove that Trump was in on this now you might be so accustom to hearing Donald Trump Spin and lie and the people around him Spin and lie that you might say who even cares that they were saying whether they should or shouldn't do it right that's not the point the point is that at the time then not later when Cohen ran into his further legal problems but then while Donald Trump was President Trump Michael Cohen was privately saying a part of the story that's bad for Trump then and he's saying the same thing now four years later that it was Trump in on it not that Cohen concocted that story later to get at his old boss who he is angry with but that at the time it was true then and it was discussed then with the guy on the other part of that transaction so that's bad for defendant Trump now we've heard this recording but it was played in court for the very first time today Cohen and Trump discussing that initial payment that was arranged for the former Playboy Playmate Karen McDougall in 2016 I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend David I spoke to Allan about it when it comes time for the financing which will be L what finan weon have to pay so no no no no no no there are tapes the tapes are bad in this case Michael Cohen apparently made the because he thought it would help him protect himself especially as he had to scramble so much even to get his client to get this deal that then his client didn't want to pay for in real time and the payment is not just about being cheap or being lazy or any other pejorative terms someone might come up with the initial Instinct by then president Trump or candidate Trump then later president in the cover up was pay with cash cover it up we don't want to anyone to know about this and that's a problem for the Trump defense because they keep saying it's all legal ndas are legal and it's true there are many different ways you can structure an NDA between two private parties between your former employer all sorts of ways that that is legal but if it was so legal and it was so okay why Beyond signing it were they so intent on covering it up does that go against the reasonable doubt that Trump's defense team is trying to conjure that hey maybe Cohen went rogue or maybe this is all out of control or maybe it's didn't really happen the way they said good evening from Washington DC I'm J saki Chris Hayes has the night off and he will be back tomorrow night Donald Trump was back in court this morning for day 10 if you're counting of his criminal trial today's proceedings began with another hearing on the ex-president's repeated and I mean repeated violations of his gag order and we're going to talk about that a little bit later in the show for sure but things really got interesting once Keith Davidson returned to the stand today he's the former lawyer for both of the women Trump is accused of paying off Ken McDougall and stormy MCD Stormy Daniels from the witness stand Davidson really pulled back the curtain on a 2018 statement he wrote on behalf of Daniels seeming to deny her affair with Trump he admitted with Trump sitting right in front of him in the courtroom that the stormy Daniel statement was just designed to look like a denial it was basically a non-denial denial you could say the statement read quote I recently became aware that certain news outlets are alleging that I had a sexual and or romantic affair with Donald Trump many many years ago I am stating with complete Clarity that this is absolutely false the Endor is sort of or is sort of a strange part of that statement but now Davidson used some particularly lawyerly language if I may say say so to parse why exactly he believed that statement to be true saying quote I don't think that anyone had ever alleged that any interaction between Daniels was romantic look I've written a lot of statements in my time not about this sort of thing fortunately but despite the we were just friends with benefit's Vibe of Davidson's answers the interesting part to me at least was actually that there was no outright denial of what happened or who was behind the attempt to cover it up and he testified that it was his understanding that Trump and Daniels did indeed have a bit of a thing going on you could say later in the afternoon the jury heard audio of Michael Cohen for the first time in the form of of a previously released recording of a phone call where Cohen and Trump discussed paying off McDougall to cover up that Affair including Cohen discussing financing and Trump seeming to confirm the $150,000 amount now we knew that recording was out there but today the jury got to hear Donald Trump isn't in his own voice there's something to that I've spoken to Allan wiberg about how to set the whole thing up U with so what are we funding that yes um and it's all the stuff all the stuff because you know you never know where that company you never know where he's going to be correct so I'm I'm all over that and I spoke to Allan about it when it comes time for the financing which will be what finan well have to pay so no no no no no no I got no no no no a check it's pretty specific the jury also heard a recording between Cohen and Keith Davidson this time regarding sto Stormy Daniels and this recording we didn't know about before today nobody's thinking about Michael you and despite what like for example you know um what the earlier conversation you know um and who else would do that for somebody who else yeah I did yeah because I care about the guy right and I wasn't going to play Penny wise pound foolish right right and I'm sitting there and I'm saying to myself what about me yeah what about me and I I can't even tell you how many times he said to me you know um I hate the fact that we did it and my comment to him was but every person that you've spoken to told you it was the right move right and that was a lot of Michael Cohen and only a tiny bit of Keith Davidson in that recording but as NBC news reports quote Davidson said he understood that he referred to Trump and we did it refer to the payment to Daniels couldn't be much more clear than that I think and remember the entire argument or big part of the argument being made by the defense is Trump knew nothing about these payments that Michael Cohen effectively went completely Rogue when he paid these women for what reason no one can explain other than of course Trump the evidence presented today seems to fly in the face of the notion this all happened without Trump's knowledge something Michael Cohen himself will likely attest to when he takes the stand later in the trial we're also expecting to hear from others close to Trump including his longtime Aid hopix who was on some of these calls who could provide a mountain of new evidence in the days ahead Lisa Rubin is an MSNBC legal correspondent who was inside the courthouse today George Conway is an attorney and contributing wrer at the Atlantic where he is covering the Trump trials he spent many days in the courthouse Mary McCord spent nearly 20 years as a federal prosecutor at the attorney's office in DC where she served as the chief of the Criminal Division and she currently co-hosts the excellent informative award-winning podcast Prosecuting Donald Trump and they all join me now so at Leisa I'm going to start with you because you were at the trial today tell us what was like in the room there today and what was it like when they heard these recordings for the first time John we heard a lot of recordings for the first time so we heard the two that you just mentioned and then there were others that the defense admitted because they say that they Dem demonstrate that Keith Davidson was a person not to be trusted that he was playing games with the Stormy Daniels story and that in particular by the spring of 2018 when Michael avanatti took over stormy daniels's case he was effectively saying to people you know that this is all what my grandmother and Yiddish would call Bubba mice and she knows that this is Bubba mice and uh this this story isn't true and the defense tried to get Davidson to say that that was his own understanding of the story which he wouldn't I think of those calls the one that had the most impact even though Trump's voice wasn't on it was the one about stormmy Daniels for a couple of reasons one the falsification of the business records that comprises the actual crime charged here it's not about Karen McDougall it's about stormmy Daniels the second part is that Michael Cohen and Keith Davidson had that conversation in the fall of 2017 before Michael Cohen himself really went rogue and broke from Trump World and so to hear Michael Cohen say in his own voice not only nobody's worried about me but I can't tell you how many times he and I have talked about the fact that he hated that we did this settlement and yet everyone around him consistently told him it was the right thing to do that demonstrates that the people within the cone of knowledge might not have just been Cohen and pecker and Davidson and Trump but potentially others as well at least by the fall of 2017 even if they didn't know so in real time that was the call gen to me that had the most impact and I'm interested to see as this goes on whether we'll hear even further recordings that Cohen made on his own and or that other participants may have made because the prosecution has said to us all along you think this case is all about Michael Cohen but really you're going to see a whole lot of evidence that you didn't expect we're going to show you paper and email and text messages and recordings and sure enough that's exactly what they've done so far yeah I mean that recording I hate the fact that we did it was Michael Cohen repeating of something Trump had said to him it also struck me as pretty significant and also we hadn't heard that recording before so maybe there's going to be many more things we hear but what struck you today George about this that absolutely struck me I mean I I I saw some people commenting online that somehow the defense may have thought that was helpful but I cannot for the life of me see that it's like it's like having two uh bank robbers and and one later they rob the bank and then One bank robber later says on tape to somebody else you know my co-conspirator my co- bank robber the guy who who who who drove the getaway car kind of regrets that we did that well haveed we shouldn't have robbed the bank that does not help the defense and the other thing about it is again as Lisa pointed out the timing this was back when when when Cohen was in not only in Trump's good graces but was acting as the US attorney's office for the southern n of New York later said acting for the benefit of and the dire at the direction of individual number one Donald J Trump yeah it's so interesting I mean Mary we were just talking it earlier before we came on set just about what they're trying to do the prosecution to kind of set this up for Michael Cohen's testimony right he has some credibility issues out there which people have spoken about that's something that's part of the defenses line of of argument so what what were they trying to do today with playing some of these recordings and putting some questioning out there uh I think credibility issues are an understatement uh Andrew and I I work on diplomacy that's right so you know they're doing a couple things they're going to corroborate every single possibly possible way they can through texts through emails through recordings corroborate in advance the things they expect them to say but they're also trying to take the sting out of the bad stuff they are not shying away from painting him as somebody frankly that no one seemed to like right the people who have testified uh so far including in particular Mr Davidson didn't really have nice things to say about Mr Cohen and um you know certainly thought that he was aggressive and put pressure on people and was nasty and things like that and I think they want to get the jury kind of like comfortable with this so that that's not a new thing by the time that he takes the stand so that they can focus on what he's testifying to and how that's been corroborated by the other the psychology of this as a non- lawyer is so interesting to me Lisa this may not have been the most important part of today but I thought Keith Davidson sort of parsing his words when discussing the denial he wrote for Stormy Daniels I don't know it felt a little odd but I'm sure there was a strategy to it tell what do you think well first of all Jen when I was thinking about Keith Davidson on the stand explaining how he thought that those statements were fact accurate even though anyone could see on their face how misleading they were I thought to this is why normal people hate lawyers right because we do things like this so lawyerly yes it's so loyly and it's why you know people make lawyer jokes but in in all seriousness I think Keith Davidson had a reasonable explanation for it he had a client who was chopping at the bit to exploit some of the notoriety that she was getting and at the same time she took seriously the fact that the agreement that she had had a liquidated damages Clause that meant that if she breached the confidentiality part of the agreement she could have to pay $ million for each violation and so he was sort of trying to titrate between a client who very much wanted to be in the public eye and mitigating risk for her and that's how he chose to do it from that standpoint the sort of um obnoxiousness of Keith Davidson's trying to be like oh this is what I did and it was too cute by half and yeah I did it it it's more sympathetic in that eye whether the jury will take that away I'm not sure but again to Mary's point I think the prosecution is doing an overall good job sort of situating this story in the seaming of some of the people involved they don't have to like these folks they just have to believe they're telling the truth about the ultimate alleged bad guy here the former president of the United States but we begin tonight with four words what have we done done that was the late night text message that Keith Davidson the former lawyer for Karen McDougall and stormmy Daniels sent to the former editor of the national Inquirer Dylan Howard on the night of the 2016 presidential election today in a New York City courtroom Davidson continued his testimony in the first criminal trial of a former US president Donald Trump claiming that in the text there was an understanding between him and Howard that quote our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of Donald Trump those activities referring to the brokering of hush money agreements alongside Trump's former personal lawyer Michael Cohen and the former publisher of The Inquirer David pecker to keep McDougall and Daniel silent about their alleged sexual encounters with Trump ahead of the 2016 election the prosecution has used Davidson to lay the foundation and backr ground for how the $130,000 payment to Daniels came about to explain Cohen's motivation to keep Daniels quiet in the context surrounding her denials about after the fact about the story when it went public today the defense also got their opportunity to cross-examine Davidson invoking what appeared to be a two-pronged strategy the first was to make it very clear that Davidson had no direct connection to Trump and could not prove that Cohen or Howard were actually acting on Trump's orders in fact before today the two men had never even been in the same room the other was to try to undermine David's Davidson's credibility by implying he had Associated himself with people who had bad reputations and seemed to suggest that Davidson engaged an extortion for celebrity gossip a point the witness repeatedly denied and this followed this morning's second gag order violation hearing where the prosecution made their case for for additional violations by trump it comes after judge Juan marshan ruled earlier this week that Trump had violated the gag order nine times already finding Trump $11,000 for each violation and warning him that continued violations could lead to jail time Court will be back in session tomorrow at 9:30 in the morning joining me now Suzanne Craig investigative reporter for the New York Times and MSNBC contributor who was at the courthouse today Melissa Murray law professor at New York University and MSNBC legal analyst and llan cartrite former executive editor for the national Inquirer who is now a special correspondent for The Hollywood Reporter thank you all for being here Suzanne give me your impressions on today what stood out it was a real grab bag so I have say when I was going into court this morning I actually read the indictment over again because I just really wanted to focus myself on exactly where this is heading which those 32 counts and I think what we saw today was a lot of smoke but we saw more about the conspiracy in terms of what was going on and we saw on I thought kind of one of the most important things we saw was on cross-examination of uh of Keith Davidson some people think the lawyers maybe should have just stopped it have you ever met Donald Trump no yeah but they just kept going and they really dirtied him up they they dragged him into a guy who was dealing with sex tape Brokers trying to extort people it was it was really ugly and he was very uncomfortable but I think what they were trying to do at the end of the day was to make it look like Michael Cohen is an unsavory fellow and this guy's an unsavory fellow and Donald Trump was the victim of an extortion plot they were try I if I had to extract something from all the craziness it was this afternoon in court I think that's sort of where I landed was that Donald Trump once again was a victim of of an in this case these two unsavory guys it doesn't feel like that would make sense and and a New York jury might doubt that Donald Trump because you know these are New Yorkers they're going to know who that is um what do you make of that strategy of trying to dirty up Keith Davids and make it look like he was maybe extorting Trump I mean I think the dirtying up of Keith Davidson of any of these Witnesses is critically important for the defense I mean I think we saw the dirtying up of Michael Cohen and he hasn't even taken the stand I mean I think the tldr of today was everybody hates Michael Cohen we heard a lot about how unreliable he was how needy he was I mean he's just an unsavory guy Keith Davidson also was there to corroborate Michael Cohen's story and it was necessary I think to drag him a little too as well as Stormy Daniels um he was also testifying as to the nature of the payments to stormmy Daniels and not only did he get portrayed as a serial extortionist she was also um painted as someone who was trying to extract this money from Donald Trump before the November 2016 election because she didn't believe he would win and therefore her story wouldn't be valuable after the fact so there was this rush to do this Michael Cohen was trying to get it done and so was Keith so they're all in cahoots and the only person who's not in cahoots is is that is that credible as somebody who actually worked there uh I mean it's it's you know it's it rings it rings true I mean today for me was fascinating because it was always like a a tabloid uh you know rerun of you know Lindsay Lan Hulk Hogan and Charlie Sheen we had all these sort of characters that we had written about in the acquire brought back to life via Keith Davidson's testimony and in that cross you know I was watching Keith Davidson as the defense were really going for him and you could see he was getting more and more agitated and he kept saying it's consideration you know he he he did not he turned up his nose that the use of hush money and these payments but it was consideration is how he he phrased it and you know inquiry minds want to know where Dylan how it is because he keeps coming up he keeps coming up in court and very much in that message what have we done and we're still what you know we're several days in and we don't know you know uh where he is we you know he's in Australia where he hasn't been up here yeah I think one really kind of notable thing though today was how they went after Keith Davidson in a way that they did not go after David pecker right on cross and it was notable and David pecker is the guy he right he's the one who made the deal so you can look at these two in isolation and we can talk about it the opening question on Cross was have you ever met Donald Trump Yeah Boy David pecker sure has yeah absolutely and he seems to rever him and they really I thought comparatively went pretty light on him on Cross compared why would they do that why do you think they would why why go light on him well I know we're going to talk about the gag order in a little bit but I thought it was really interesting that one of the episodes that was raised in the second request for enforcement of the gag order was a statement that Donald Trump had made in response to some reporters questioning at a hear or a at a press conference that was happened before the trial it was about David pecker he's asked a lot of questions but he chose to answer this question about David pecker and he said you know David pecker is a nice guy David's really nice David's really nice and the intimation that the prosecution was making was this is basically skirting right up to the edge and tampering and in influence like he's basically like David you're going to be really nice to me it would be really unfortunate David if you weren't nice anymore yeah so I think that's an interesting part of this as well let's play Stormy Daniels this is Stormy Daniels on Jimmy Kimmel and this is after Donald Trump State of the Union this is January 30 2018 take a look did you sign this letter that was released today I don't know did I wait a minute that you can say that does not look like my signature does it it doesn't look like your signature so you're saying perhaps this letter was written and released without your approval do you know where it came from do you have any idea I do not know where you do not know where it came from so you you you did the internet so you did not have anything to do with this I also work for the FBI and I'm a man according to the internet uh here is the uh a picture of the letter this is a January 30 2018 denial written for stormy Daniels by Keith Davidson over the past few weeks I have been asked countless times to comment on reports of an alleged sexual relationship I had with Donald Trump many many many years ago the fact of the matter is that each party to this alleged Affair denied its existence in 2006 2011 2016 2017 and now again in 2018 I'm not denying this affair because I was paid hush money in quotes as has been reported in overseas uh owned tabloids I'm denying this affair because it never happened no Trump recently pointed to this as evidence of a denial well this was another fun moment where where Keith Davidson presented this sort of non- denial denial and he kind of had to reason with the jury that well if you really sort of break it down a finite language you know it's true and and you're sitting there going well what actually you know he he actually there's no romantic there was no romantic right great this was so great because this was every reporter gets these and they said she was saying there was no romantic sexual relationship right and then he was asked about the is that a truthful statement said yes and he broke it down he said there was no romantic relationship and there was no sexual relationship it was sex so they're denying it through that way and as well he said there was no hush money because it was a civil contract of which consideration every reporter has gotten these non-denial denials to the point where one of the reporters who worked on the story at theour the Wall Street Journal who broke some of this he's now at the times he said we knew it was an on denial denial at the time yeah and that just means you're going to I mean depends on what the meaning of is is they're just gonna put Stormy Daniels on the on the on the stand and she's gonna say what she's gonna say right no I I think that's exactly right um again the big news here is going to be Michael Cohen but by the time we get to that everyone will have been blooded up that's everybody but I don't know that that matters so much for this jury right I mean at some point the jurors are going to be anesthesized to all of the filth that has already been aired in this trial I mean they knew it was going to be filthy when they started and it's been predictably filthy I think at some point you become inured to it and by the time you actually get to what Michael Cohen is going to say and you see the documents because whatever you want to say about the documents they're not filthy right and doesn't matter Dort today where they played that recording with Michael Cohen and Donald Trump where he's talking about Gathering up buying up all this information David pick in case he gets stuck in case he gets hit by a truck well that was really I mean because you had all of this like the sense emphasizing like Donald Trump is outside of the scheme he is outside of the scheme you've never met him but there he is on tape talking to Michael Cohen I wish we hadn't done that I wish we hadn't paid the hush money to sery Daniels and so and then why is he asking how's our girl Karen like if he's not a part of it is he a rogue actor at a certain point I mean this is what they're they're really pushing that angle and this is why I it feels like it doesn't make any sense because you can say Keith Davidson is a terrible person you can say the national inquir is a TBL so what if these people good people or bad got together and did a scheme to cover up because of his election they did it the story and the story remains consistent right they're all saying Davidson thr out David Pekka yeah I think part of it too is like these defense lawyers have an uphill battle here Michael Cohen may be the crappiest witness ever for the prosecution but Donald Trump's a pretty crappy defendant too and by the way first of all do we really think Michael Cohen's gonna be back when it's Michael Cohen has done this show a dozen times Michael Cohen is a practiced Communicator he was Donald Trump's go-to Communicator he's done podcasts he's done interviews he has his own podcast Michael Cohen is not going to be a bad witness it's such such a ridiculous argument be a did Donald Trump see you and because I know he saw my colleague Lawrence O'Donnell and what stood out to you he didn't see me because I was in the shabby overflow room so I was across the hall from him um you know I think I think one of the things that we're going to see in this trial as it continues is there's just going to be an accumulation of the same kind of evidence of the same crew of people doing the same nefarious things and I think it's plain on their face what it's about I don't think that there's much doubt at this point that um they were trying to pay off people to be quiet they were paying them off in order to get a foot up in the election I think the issue is whether or not you go from the series of misdemeanors to a felony and election interference and that's ultimately I think how the jury's going to land on this but along the way we're getting this very seedy tale about the underbelly of power and money and politics in New York City okay but is there any chance people hear that and say well that's just how nasty New York City big business works right could it look like they're all just kind of no good guys but not necessarily Trump's a criminal here yes I mean I I I I think that's where it all tips around is is ultimately what's the impact of this case and I think it's sort of an unknown I think you know I think back to the January 6th hearings where people were saying American voters had forgotten about January 6th and they didn't care about it and then once the hearings and the tale get out in public it mattered to voters and it made them think about what those events meant and I think this trial may not end up legally being consequential for Donald Trump it could be I don't know but I do think every day he's sitting in there and there's this referendum on how he rolled as a husband and and how he conducted himself as a businessman and and and what he was capable of and I do think you know at the end of the day this election is going to come down to a small slice of independent and moderate voters in six or seven states who I do think care about this stuff and I think voters on the left and the right are already decided about where they're going to be and cases like this are are are I consequential for that group of people and what they're seeing is that Donald Trump um is shabby and Donald Trump um allows a porn star to come into the offices at Trump Tower on the 26th floor of the building uh which is 30 floors beneath his residence where his wife was with their four-month-old child and and that's the same man who's saying I can't get out of court to attend my son's graduation and I think they're weighing that for what it is is which is that he didn't really care at the end of the day about how his wife felt about any of these things he did it anyway and then once it came out into the open he's he's tried very hard to bury it and not from his wife but from the American voter from both yes yes both uh Dave Donald Trump has expressed that he's angry he does not feel like his defense team is aggressive enough he wants his Roy con omitting the fact that Roy con was disgraced and disbarred so if he were alive today he would not be able to represent Donald Trump obviously his team was the most aggressive we have seen today you think that's a good move for them no I didn't think they did well today because I think they missed the mark they went after did they do well any other day no I think it's going well for the prosecution but Keith Davidson is an important witness and Trump's legal team went after him in a big way saying that he and his client storming Daniels are extortionists brought out the ew but I think that miss its mark because remember Trump is on trial for falsification of business records and that allegedly led to another crime campaign Finance violations well you know by claiming that he's a victim of extortion it does not help his offense it's not like magic fairy dust he sprinkle some extortion over these charges and they go away that's not how any of it works and so I think in their zest to try to be aggressive they didn't help the defense very much judge Cordell the lawyer on the stand Keith Davidson recall worrying on Election night that the hush money swayed the election he actually texted the executive editor of The Inquirer and said what have we done how crucial is that point to the prosecution oh it's extremely crucial um so this whole trial tells a story and the prosecution has its story defense has it uh its own story so the prosecution story everything is just building one thing on the next and everything they can get particularly text messages phone calls uh recordings all of that is what jurors love to hear uh so this was just a critical piece of the story that is building each day that this trial goes on today the jury heard over excuse me heard a recording they actually heard the recording of a conversation between Donald Trump and Michael Cohen in 2016 about the financing of the hush money payment to storby Daniels how important is evidence like that Dave it's important because one of Trump's key defenses is that he knew nothing the Sergeant Schultz defense from Hogan's Heroes and every time you can put Trump with n you're really dating yourself here I'm turning 53 tomorrow so yes uh so uh when you can put Trump in the room with Michael Cohen or in a conversation with Cohen and with David pecker then that shows that he had the knowledge now that the bigger question to me is can you place Trump with the decision to falsify the business records you got to get there and that's the only piece of the puzzle I think that's missing but stuff like this recording is powerful because people lie but recordings don't I want to stay right on that point Peter because Trump's lawyers can attack Michael Cohen all they want but when you've got a recording like this it's kind of you can't refute it could could these primary sources make the difference in this case yeah I mean the witnesses uh for the prosecution today was Donald Trump right it was his own voice you can't as as we just said as you know you can't really refute that and I think the more you hear his voice the more it seems real the more it's not just a tale told among a lot of different sleazy characters you may not find very reputable there actually is in fact uh you know a main character here the main character is Donald Trump and it is not surprising that somebody charged with a crime is surrounded by people who may not be the most reputable people in the world that's the Bane every prosecut trying to prove a case like this but juries time and time again have been able to make that distinction and understand that Witnesses who are you know checkered in their own past uh doesn't mean they're not telling what's really going on here and there's a lot of you know a lot of evidence here that Donald Trump tried to make sure the American public did not know about this use money and and and and the question then becomes as we said here whether it becomes a felony whether how much we can prove on the falsification to businesses but I think on the main a actions here many Americans have known this now for several years judge Cordell I want to listen to what Donald Trump said on the campaign trail yesterday during his day off there's no crime I have a crooked judge he's a totally conflicted judge and I come you know it's it unfortunately it's a 95% or so Democrat area other than that things a wonderful okay first let's just fact check for our audience a Democrat area the case is being tried in Manhattan because it is where the alleged crimes were committed but when you were a judge did you ever experiencing anything remotely like this from a defendant no I was a trial court judge for nearly 20 years and never ever have I heard judges denigrated in this fashion um and it's really sad to me because there are a lot of people listening well the world is listening but uh Donald Trump's followers are listening to this and some may be persuaded that why give any respect to the court system to judges to the process when in fact an independent Judiciary is the Third Leg of a democracy you have the executive the legislative and the Judiciary and he is just repeatedly tearing it down constantly which is why uh the gag orders in effect but of course the judge didn't apply it to himself I'm not quite sure why uh because it's nothing to do about the judge being thin skinned this is really tearing apart his attempt to tear apart our Judiciary um so the gag order that's fine it's trying in a way to stop Donald Trump from doing this but it's really ineffective because the punishment at least as far as fines go don't mean a thing to him he's not being deterred at all judge I also want to share what Trump said today when he was asked if he would testify and I want to remind our audience he recently said yeah I want to testify he's changing his tune watch this I'd love to answer that question it's a very easy question the easiest question so far but uh I'm not allowed to testify because this judge who's totally conflicted has me under an unconstitutional gag order not allowed to testify I cannot even believe I need to ask you this but for the record can a gag order prevent someone from testifying judge Cordell no and I think what Donald Trump has done is used the wrong word he meant I can't talk to you about this and he's using the word testify because he just is ignorant about the court process and I think unwilling to really learn what this process is about and how things are done so no of course if he chooses to testify that's his right um and if even if his attorneys tell him we don't want you to testify they haven't proven their case if he decides he wants to do it he can testify and he cannot be stopped

Channel: MSNBC

Views: 952,301

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Id: xanDDwsPifU

Length: 67min 53sec (4073 seconds)

Published: Fri May 03 2024