Trope Talk: Conservation of Ninjutsu

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The title tricked me into thinking it was about how Ninjutsu itself survived to the modern day! instead, it ended up being "one more reason why AoU sucks!"

👍︎︎ 63 👤︎︎ u/RealAbd121 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

"But America's ass is far too powerful to be spanked that easily"

👍︎︎ 46 👤︎︎ u/frostbiyt 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

Sir Twenty Goodmen: better than any army. Proof? The Trojan Horse.

Putting the hero out of commission by giving them the flu:

"we know that's a thing that can happen, but isn't there a more interesting way of doing it?"

How about putting the most powerful warrior in the Universe, that we know of, out of commission by giving him a latent and so-far unknown lethal heart condition that only a medicine from a time-travelling future honorary nephew can cure? Note that this is in a setting where it would be more efficient and less painful for him to commit suicide and then return from the afterlife.

"America's Ass Is Far Too Powerful To Be Spanked That Easily"

[ chef's kiss ]

👍︎︎ 22 👤︎︎ u/AlarmingAffect0 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

I wonder if Red has read Doctor McNinja. Conservation of Ninjutsu happens a lot in that series, to hilarious results.

👍︎︎ 10 👤︎︎ u/tired20something 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

One important thing with this trope that Red didn't really talk about is the importance of editing. The fight between the Bride and the Crazy 88 in Kill Bill vol. 1 shouldn't work. It's a 1 v 88(?) fight where a majority of the characters are either shadowboxing or just standing around in the background. But the editing is fast-paced enough that you don't really have time to register what's happening behind the main action.

It is enough for the audience to maintain suspension of disbelief. And the focus always returns to the Bride and her physical condition as it changes throughout the fight. The scene tells a specific story: the Bride has to defeat all these ninjas, but the longer she fights, the more blows they land on her.

The fight scene in The Last Jedi does a different thing. It uses longer takes, and puts the focus on the relationship between two specific characters (Rey and Kylo). The scene is once again telling a story. It assumes the audience is paying attention to their teamwork and dynamic, and not counting how many guards are chilling just out of frame. It doesn't hold up when you slow it down, but it doesn't need to. Most people aren't going to scrub through it frame-by-frame.

The fight scenes at the end of Age of Ultron are, by comparison, much more meandering. They focus on far too many characters, and therefore the storytelling is less clear. The editing is fine, but we don't necessarily get much of a sense as to the specific, moment-to-moment dynamics between the characters. It's just visual white-noise to fill out the runtime.

👍︎︎ 7 👤︎︎ u/MattBarksdale17 📅︎︎ Aug 13 2022 🗫︎ replies

So Ninjustu is conserved! Just by the writer

👍︎︎ 6 👤︎︎ u/KerPop42 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

This is why I'm Team Pirate in that one endless debate.

👍︎︎ 3 👤︎︎ u/gorka_la_pork 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

I had thought this one would be about Ninja, and it kinda was, but not in the way and to the extent I expected. Another excellent trope talk.

👍︎︎ 3 👤︎︎ u/RoyalPeacock19 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies

What about the rare, reverse conservation of ninjutsu? Clearly displayed when Fezzik fights the Man in Black?

👍︎︎ 2 👤︎︎ u/redbaronfel 📅︎︎ Aug 12 2022 🗫︎ replies
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This video was sponsored by World  Anvil! The perfect improvised   weapon to sling at a squad of five to  twenty interchangeable faceless goons! Picture if you will, a familiar scene to those  versed in the tropespace. Our mild-mannered   protagonist is walking down a standard-issue  dark alleyway when a shape silently emerges from   the shadows. Clad all in black and moving with  practiced poise, the formidable figure settles   into a fighting stance honed in a hundred thousand  hours of training. Our hero faces the mighty   ninja, a deadly assassin unrivaled in skill. And then six more of them show up, and everyone   breathes a sigh of relief. See, everybody knows  that while a single ninja is a deadly threat,   a group of ninjas is cannon fodder, existing only  to attack one at a time and be handily dispatched   by our hero with a string of casual kicks and the  occasional backhand. This assessment that comes   so naturally to those of us versed in fiction may  seem confusing and illogical to a viewer grounded   in reality, who might theoretically assume  that if a single ninja is quite dangerous,   then six ninjas should be about six times  as dangerous. Why does giving them backup   and strength in numbers make them weaker? This odd phenomenon has been given the   name Conservation of Ninjutsu. It states  that each side in a conflict has a set,   constant amount of fighting ability, or  Ninjutsu, to split between its participants.   Thus a one-on-one conflict between two ninjas will  see a roughly even match, but if one side has one   ninja and the other side has twenty, each enemy  ninja will only possess 5% of the fighting ability   they'd display if they were fighting alone.  Instead they'll dance around in the background,   shadowboxing or doing flips to keep things  interesting while the hero fights their comrades   one at a time. While a lone ninja may be able to  tank several hits and will potentially continue   fighting even while stabbed or on fire, ninjas  with the misfortune of being in groups can barely   tank a single hit of any strength before flying  merrily away and collapsing in a heap. All this   serves to produce some very exciting spectacle,  but it can leave the audience scratching   their heads a little. What causes this strange  phenomenon? Why does it afflict everything from   ninjas to robots to cops to space-wizards? Why  does being outnumbered never, ever mean anything?  Now the primary problem with this trope is that  it breaks the story's internal logic and makes   it very difficult for the audience to gauge how  much danger our heroes are in at any given time   and what kind of practical threat a fighting  force poses. If a single ninja presents a   serious obstacle, the audience should be able  to assume that, all other things being equal,   adding more ninjas will only make the obstacle  more difficult to overcome. When the opposite   happens without explanation or justification,  it erodes the audience's trust in the story.  This is a problem, but it's not an unsolvable  problem. There are plenty of stories that   justify this kind of threat-scaling, as  improbable as that may seem. But before   we unpack how this trope can work, we need to  understand why it happens in the first place.  Now there are several reasons why this trope  happens, and we can split them into Doylist   and Watsonian explanations - as in, reasons it  occurs because of the writers and reasons it can   be justified as happening in-story. As far as  doylist explanations go, the first one is also   the simplest: fight choreography is really hard.  Choreographing a fight between two characters is   already complicated and can become arbitrarily  complex depending on individual abilities,   the environment they're fighting in and  how creative the choreographer and stunt   team are feeling that day. This only becomes  more complicated when you add more people.   It's less of a situation of conservation of  ninjutsu and more conservation of creativity.   The choreographer only has so much they can  work with, and if they have to choreograph a   team of people rather than one fighter, that  attention is gonna end up getting split. So   in a one-on-one fight the character might get a  lot of focus and show off fancy moves, specific   martial art forms and impressive utilization  of the environment, but if you add more people   anything too complicated risks becoming visual  noise. Will the audience even notice that the   guy in the background is doing a very impressive  flip if there's five more guys in the foreground   also doing flips? All this to say, the process  of choreographing a fight is very complicated,   and if it's a fight with one character on one side  and a squad of interchangeable mooks on the other,   the solo fighter is gonna get more  attention and TLC from the choreographer,   and as a result the mook squad is gonna look  less skilled and impressive by comparison.   They also might seem a lot more fragile, because  one really easy way to simplify the choreography   is to take characters out of commission, and  that means you can thin out the battlefield   just by letting your solo fighter one-shot  a couple mooks to get them out of the way.  Now this problem isn't a matter of laziness  or anything, as it often applies even when   the choreographers and stuntpeople  are genuinely giving it their all.   A lot of big group combat scenes involve some  pretty impressive moves from the background   fighters - that just end up completely lost  because of all the other stuff happening onscreen.   In fact, in big group combat shots it's common for  background fighters to just be, like, shadowboxing   or wiggling to make sure there's action happening  onscreen even if it doesn't actually make sense   for them to be doing anything or they're way  out of range to actually be hitting anyone or   getting hit themselves. It's more important that  the scene overall make visual sense to the viewer   than that every individual character onscreen  is being individually impressive. An audience   can only visually process so much at a time,  and if a large squad of highly trained warriors   are all doing complicated things at once, the  audience has almost no chance of seeing all of it,   or even most of it. All this contributes to the  impression that a squad of mooks does a whole lot   of nothing while they wait for the hero to take  them out one at a time, because that is by FAR the   easiest way to choreograph that kind of scene,  and every bit of added visual complexity will   complicate the viewing experience, potentially  to the point of visual incomprehensibility.  This is informed by the second reason this  happens - the heroes usually need to win.   Sometimes protagonists end up in situations they  have to lose for the plot to happen - maybe they   need to get captured by the bad guys so they can  learn their secret plans, or they need to lose   so the bad guys can succeed in doing something  evil but much more interesting to watch than   whatever the heroes were planning - but the hero  or heroes losing is usually kind of a big moment,   even if it has to happen for the plot to advance.  And a writer doesn't usually want to waste that   defeat on a squad of faceless minions. If  the hero's gonna lose, it's gonna be to a   major named villain with a unique and interesting  skillset so the defeat can inform the hero's arc,   or maybe just make the fight more visually  interesting. Some random interchangeable   faceless minion doesn't DESERVE to do something as  important as thwarting the hero. So this means if   the hero is facing down a squad of faceless bad  guys, it's pretty unlikely the writer is plans   on letting them lose - if they wanted a dramatic  defeat they'd bring in someone more interesting.   This isn't universal, but it is a pretty common  tell for these kinds of fights. So even though our   hero is outnumbered and potentially facing bad  guys that have given them trouble before, in a   very real sense the threat is a total illusion.  The faceless goon squad is here to attack the   hero to show the audience and the heroes that the  bad guys want the hero stopped, but they're also   here to show that the hero can put up a pretty  decent fight and is not about to be stopped,   at least not this time. So the hero will win, even  if they get a little banged up in the process.   And all this combines to give the audience the  impression that the faceless minions are very   little more than plot space-filler - and in a  real sense, they are. They usually exist because   logically they have to exist - an evil emperor  needs an army or they're not really an emperor,   an evil boss needs some evil minions to boss  around, etcetera. The army of faceless goons   is implied to exist in the setting because the  big bad needs manpower to fulfill their narrative   role of subjugating all the hapless background  characters, but our heroes are tougher than your   average npc and are above the threat posed by  standard-issue evil minions and are really only   at subjugation risk by named villains. The  army of minions aren't threats, they're set   dressing. They help establish a power scale and  justify the big bad's threat, but that's really   it. Letting a squad of faceless minions beat the  hero would be like randomly taking them out of   commission with the flu - an environmental hazard  that we understand exists but weren't expecting to   pose our hero a real threat, and it really seems  like there were more interesting and compelling   ways to take the hero out of commission than  that. So all that to say, conservation of ninjutsu   applies because armies of minions are generally  used like background setpieces to establish tone   rather than posing a legitimate threat, while  single bad guys with personalities are actual   characters that the writer can use for emotionally  impactful interactions without feeling wasteful.  And finally, the last doylist reason this  trope applies is that it lets the heroes   show off all their fancy moves. See, if a squad  of faceless minions is basically set dressing,   this gives your characters an opportunity to  demonstrate their skill by knocking 'em over   in all the fun, exciting ways they can think of.  If you heroes only ever fight major bad guys that   pose a serious threat or even outclass them, our  heroes are gonna be too busy trying to survive   to show off. This can risk making the heroes'  abilities a little tell-don't-show, where they're   allegedly powerful badasses but practically all  they do is survive by the skin of their teeth.   If everyone's running around at an elevated power  scale and we never get a chance to compare it to,   like, regular people, it's easy to lose sight  of what that power means. So sometimes it's   good to throw a passel of faceless goons at  your heroes and just let them go to town.   Line 'em up so the hero can knock 'em over however  they like. Bonus points if they're robots - and   they so often are - because that means your hero  can get extremely brutal without worrying about   any pesky no-killing policies or PG-13 ratings. So these reasons aren't… bad. Which might seem   weird, because this trope isn't great. But it  happens as often as it does because it's fed   into by all these completely legitimate writing  concerns - fights are difficult to choreograph   and an audience can only keep track of so many  players at a time, heroes being defeated is a good   opportunity for character drama that probably  shouldn't be squandered on non-characters,   and it's always a good idea to make sure your  audience knows what your characters are actually   capable of. This all weaves together to create  a large space of scenarios where a large squad   of interchangeable bad guys narratively stands no  chance against one protagonist, even if logically   speaking that shouldn't be true at all. But there are ways to make this work,   which brings us to the watsonian reasons this  trope can occur. These are the justifications   that exist in-story to explain why these  fights end up totally one-sided in the   opposite direction we'd logically expect them to. The simplest explanation is that there's some   trick to beating these bad guys. The first time  our hero fights one, they have a lot of trouble   because they haven't worked out the trick yet, but  later after they've got the trick down it becomes   pretty trivial to take out even large squads of  them. The "trick" can be almost anything - an   elemental weakness, a programming hack, a  sound frequency that shorts 'em out, a specific   frequency of light they're visible at, a big glowy  weak point to hit that shuts 'em down, whatever.   Once our hero knows what it is, they can use  it whenever they want and even take out a whole   passel of bad guys at once. This is probably the  best justification for conservation of ninjutsu   because it genuinely explains why the bad guys  seem so much weaker after their first appearance   even though they're showing up in big groups - but  it has the downside that the bad guys need some   kind of specific exploitable weakness, and that  can be tough to justify. Why exactly would the   evil emperor's robot army be vulnerable to AM/FM  radio frequencies? Well, because there needs to be   some way to mess 'em up. This does actually give  the writer the opportunity to let the bad guys get   upgrades that remove old weaknesses and make the  heroes actually struggle fighting them again,   which can be fun and prevents the fights from  getting too same-y. In some stories it's not so   much that there's a specific trick to beating  the bad guys as it's just that our heroes get   better at it with practice because all the bad  guys are pretty interchangeable and don't really   have all that many new tricks up their sleeves. And the less common watsonian explanation is   that these particular bad guys work best alone,  and actively struggle to fight in large groups,   making them actually less effective in greater  numbers. This is trickier to justify because   it feels a little counterintuitive and makes us  question why they'd fight in groups at all, but,   for instance, a bad guy who specializes in stealth  or really long-range combat might not be so good   packed in close with ten other guys just like 'em.  Like some kind of, say… ninja. Anyway, while this   technically works as an explanation it's a little  shaky and unintuitive, so it's not as popular.  There are also scenarios that resemble  conservation of ninjutsu but are actually   caused by unrelated factors - for instance,  if our heroes undergo significant powerups   and become that much stronger in a fairly short  period of time, previously deadly threats become   very rapidly outclassed and can be wiped out by  the dozen quite easily. This isn't the same as   the bad guys getting weaker in large numbers  - it's correlation, not causation - but it   can feel similarly weird for an audience if the  powerup isn't particularly well-handled. There   are also cases where the characters are faced  with an army of bad guys and conclude that they   straight-up can't fight them hand-to-hand because,  as expected, they'd be destroyed by their superior   numbers, and instead come up with a clever way to  solve the army situation without ever having to   personally deck anyone - like hijacking the army's  leader, taking the army and pushing it somewhere   else, or allying with another army so the two  armies cancel each other out and the important   characters can go back to fighting one-on-one  duels like civilized people. This also doesn't   indicate that the army is useless, but it does  functionally remove it from factoring into the   plot, which can feel similar to just making them  overtly and inexplicably useless in large numbers.  There are also cases where a single bad guy poses  the same proportionate threat as a whole squad of   the same bad guy later on, but this is because  the heroes have more backup, more firepower and   more training - for instance, the jump from Alien  to Aliens involves an escalation from a single   xenomorph to a whole hive of the things, but  the protagonists of the first movie are a tiny,   unarmed gang of untrained space-miners and  the protagonists of the sequel are a large   heavily-kitted-out crew of highly trained marines  - and they still get shredded. This is a case   where conservation of ninjutsu is successfully  averted, because each xenomorph in Aliens feels   about as deadly as the lone xenomorph in Alien  did. Killing one, while possible, is never easy   or painless, and they've got the heroes on  the defensive pretty much the entire movie.  But this is a uniquely effective bit of writing  that tries very hard to keep the threat level   consistent in-universe. Conservation of ninjutsu  is a problem because it breaks the setting's   internal logic in favor of the spectacle of  a huge, bombastic fight scene, but bombastic   doesn't always mean effective. For all the times  the heroes of the MCU wrecked shop and kicked ass   through a giant army of interchangeable faceless  minions, the hero-vs-mook fight scenes people   remember and talk about most fondly are the bus  fight in Shang-Chi and the elevator fight from   Winter Soldier, and both for very similar reasons  - they pit a ridiculously skilled fighter against   a squad of bad guys who actually seem like their  numbers pose a threat, and the solo fighter has   to actually try to beat them rather than just  mowing down a disposable crew of identical bad   guys with one punch each. The bus fight slaps  hard, but the elevator fight is probably my top   pick for "fight scenes that avoid conservation  of ninjutsu" just because it does so much with   so little - it's barely two minutes, and it's just  Captain America versus a half-dozen goons in an   enclosed environment. We know Captain America  could beat any of these guys one-on-one, which   is why Hydra stacks the deck against him every way  they can. The unfairness of the situation makes it   seem like a genuine struggle, and at every point  it's clear what's happening, who's winning and   why. All credit to the choreographers on this  one for taking an incredibly simple story beat   and turning it into this - story-wise the script  notes could've easily just been "Cap fights the   bad guys and wins," but the fight works because of  how it feels and how clearly it communicates the   abilities of both sides. When Cap gets out of the  elevator, it's because he's earned it - and then,   rather than attempting to mow down the bigger  squad of better-armed goons Hydra throws at him,   he focuses on escaping because he doesn't think  he can win - and neither do we. The elevator fight   was enough of a struggle that it convinces us  escaping is the way to go. Sure, plot-wise these   guys only exist to confirm that Hydra's trying to  take him out but america's ass is far too powerful   to be spanked that easily, but choreography-wise  the story sells us on the fight and the victory.   We don't think Cap could just keep shredding these  guys like tissue paper, and we don't think Cap   wins just because he's supposed to win - and that  is a feeling that these movies overall struggle   with. Eventually I'll run out of tropes I can use  Age of Ultron as a good bad example for, but not   today! The first time our heroes fight Ultron it  actually seems like a bit of a struggle, which   makes sense - they're not expecting a fight, it's  a party, some of 'em aren't kitted out for combat   and each of the Stark drones takes a few good  hits to knock out. But even with those setbacks,   it's still over pretty quickly. Then Ultron spends  the movie upgrading himself and building a massive   army of extra robot bodies - which go down in  one hit. The final climactic battle of the movie   features such hits as "black widow mowing down  Ultrons in a truck", "Cap landing on a guy",   "Hawkeye vaguely waving his bow at them" and  "gun." These new upgraded Ultrons are objectively   worse than Tony's autonomous drones from the start  of the movie. The power of teamwork shouldn't make   a handgun work better. Now to be fair, it's easy  to miss this if you're not looking for it with an   explicitly cynical eye - but that's not good,  is it? That means this fight scene is visual   noise. Little details like "how exactly are our  heroes defeating the killer robots threatening   the world" seems like the kind of thing you wanna  highlight, not obscure with big spinning camera   shots and quick-cuts out the wazoo. When Ultron  asks the very reasonable question "how can you   possibly hope to stop me" and Tony's only answer  is "together", that's a cheeky power-of-friendship   wink and a nudge that does absolutely nothing to  explain why and how they completely obliterate   Ultron's entire army in two minutes tops.  They don't even use teamwork on any of the   drones - they don't have to, they go down too  quickly! There's more teamwork and combo moves in   the first fight! This is textbook conservation of  ninjutsu. There's no in-universe explanation given   for why this army of killer robots is an absolute  joke compared to the threat the first prototypes   posed. Our heroes win because the story dictates  our heroes must win, and everything that gets us   from point A to point B is empty spectacle. This trope is a weird one. It's not a writing   decision, exactly - it's more of a result  of environmental pressures that shape   storytelling. In a fictional setting, the power  of a character is strongly dependent on their   narrative importance, so of course an army of  faceless goons is about as effective at shaping   the narrative as a stiff breeze or a particularly  vehement fart. Of course a single ninja is a   deadly threat - ninjas are cool and unusual,  so a lone ninja has to be a badass, but once   you get too many ninjas the coolness factor is  devalued by inflation. It's an odd duck for sure,   and it seems like the number one way to avoid it  is not so much through any trick of the writing,   but through really good fight choreography. Which  makes sense, because that is kind of how you   convince an audience that your hero can kick ass. So… yeah! And thanks again to World Anvil  for sponsoring this video!  As you may know, World Anvil is a browser-based  writing and worldbuilding software designed to   help writers, game-masters and creators of all  stripes keep their worldbuilding organized and   clear while writing and worldbuilding. Along with all the classic features like   custom wikis, family trees, custom calendars and  a built-in word processor, World Anvil just rolled   out a new feature called Chronicles that allows  creators to connect timelines to maps, giving you   a clean and simple way to visually represent how  your story advances through your world. Chronicles   supports multiple timelines and multiple maps, so  whether you’re playing with alternate timelines,   multiple disparate plots running in parallel, or  just like subdividing your storytelling into nice,   convenient boxes, Chronicles has the tools  you need. 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Channel: Overly Sarcastic Productions
Views: 487,816
Rating: undefined out of 5
Keywords: Funny, Summary, OSP, Overly Sarcastic Productions, Analysis, Literary Analysis, Myths, Legends, Classics, Literature, Stories, Storytelling, History, Mythology
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Length: 17min 18sec (1038 seconds)
Published: Fri Aug 12 2022
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