(calm music) - John, thank you so much for
taking some time to talk to us about your personal experience. Seeing Israel reborn as a
nation and then teaching what it means, from the
scriptures, over the years. And I just appreciate you taking some time to spend with us today. - No, this is a great honor
and a great privilege. Thank you, Joel. - Thank you. Okay, so you were born on June 19th, 1939, and as we are doing
this as elder statesmen of the evangelical movement. - That qualifies me. - I think you are qualified on that and at a number of levels. One of which is that you were
around when Israel was born, but first, what type of
family were you born into? What was your theological
understanding generally, but then specifically
with regards to Israel and the importance or not
importance of prophecy? - I'm a fifth generation pastor. And it goes back five
generations to Scotland, and then Canada, go back two
generations to my grandfather. And when I was a little guy
just before, you know, he died in 1950, which I was 11
years old at the time. He wrote a little booklet
and it's the only booklet that I have that he wrote. And the title was "Why You
Can't Rub Out The Jew." - [Joel] Really?
- That's my grandfather. And he wrote that book back in the 1940s to declare the truth that God
had a future plan for Israel. This was before the nation
was ever constituted in 1948, but he drew that from his
study of the word of God. - So obviously that had
an influence on you. When Israel was reborn in 48
you were eight, nine years old. - Yeah, I said, Hey, my
grandfather was right. - That's a nice way to
begin that process, yeah. - Yeah, and it just was something
we believed would happen. We knew that there were Jews around, we never met a Hittite, an
Hivite, an Amorite, a Jebusite, an Amelakite, but there were
Israelites all over the planet. And from my grandfather's viewpoint and my father's viewpoint, there was no more clear
demonstrable validation of the Bible than the presence of Jews
in the world at that time. That validated scripture in a huge way, I mean, as an apologetic for scripture and because my father and
grandfather were so relentlessly committed to the word of God,
this was just part of it. And it didn't seem to have
the same role before 1948, that it began to take on after
that when the whole world realized that what the
Bible had promised to Israel could in fact really come to pass, and from our standpoint would. - Yeah, well it was so dramatic, and yet of course it didn't
change the view of many, but as you began to
sense God's calling to go into the ministry and went through your theological training, you entered the pastorate,
at what age and what year? - Well, I went through college and I was basically your
college jock football player athlete, but in my heart I
had this tremendous appetite to understand what the
Bible meant by what it said. That's, what's always driven me. I'm driven to this day to understand the meaning of scripture. And there was one man that
I wanted to learn from, there was one man that I
wanted to be my mentor, and his name was Dr. Charles L Feinberg. And I had come to know
his name because his name was in the list of those who
edited the Scofield Bible. And I had heard him
speak a couple of times and I said, that's the man
that I want to mentor me. So I went to Talbot seminary
for that specific reason. Now, here's what makes him so interesting, he is a Jew, he studies
14 years to be a rabbi, he marries a Jewish woman
who came out of the Fiddler on the roof community,
so their roots run deep, he is converted to Christ after
studying to become a rabbi, goes to Dallas seminary. When he graduated, the
president of the seminary said we couldn't teach him
anything, in fact, he knew more when he got here than when he left. He went from there to Johns Hopkins and he got a double doctorate,
he got a ThD at Dallas and he got a PhD from
William Foxwell, Albright in archeology. So he took his Jewish
background, his knowledge of the word of God,
his study of archeology and put it all together, and at the core of his theology
was the future of Israel. And I wanted to study under that man. And he mentored me for my
three years in seminary. - Wow. And so you came out of
that program at what year? - I graduated in 1964, - 64, so three years later
then, as you're just beginning your ministry, Israel
goes to the six day war, nearly quadruples it's
land, reunifies to Islam What was that period like
for you both a student and now increasingly as a
teacher of the scriptures? - Well, you know, I
just wanted to high five my millennial friends. (laughs) I mean, it was all
unfolding exactly the way the scripture said it would unfold. I mean that's not yet
the salvation of Israel, but it's the preservation of Israel, and the protection of
Israel until that salvation can come to pass. So, yeah, this was so
affirming of my commitment to the authority and the
inerrancy of scripture, to see history validating
that little piece by piece, as it went along. You know, I even watched
with great interest, the whole Entebbe thing, and
just watched how far ahead of everybody else they were
in whatever they needed to do to make sure they preserved
their nation and their people. And you could just see the
hand of God in all of that, and it goes on even until today. - It's interesting
that, um, Israel is, uh, you know, for centuries,
people who believed the Bible literally, and
that these prophecies about, all prophesy, and then
particularly about the regathering the Jewish people to the Holy land and the rebirth of the state of Israel and all those promises that
came with it and prophecies for, you know, 1800 years or so, people had to take that only by faith. There was no visible evidence. In fact, the evidence was really stacked completely against it. Just, you know, again,
let's go to the beginning of this conversation. What is it like to live in a period where while you make an important
point and a correct point, not to swerve into newspaper exegesis, nevertheless, you're
living in a period of time, unlike most pastors and
theologians for the last 1900 years or so, where the newspaper is providing some level of discussion
point at the minimum, and even some evidence of God's
hand touching and blessing the Jewish people in a way that arguably wasn't the same for the
last 1800, 1900 years. - Yeah, and I think I can sort of come off of my grandfather's experience. When he wrote that booklet,
"Why You Can't Rub Out The Jew," he was coming off Stalin,
Hitler attempts at genocide, there was no nation, Israel, then, but the ethnic people had
been preserved in purity and they hadn't been
amalgamated and blended into all the peoples of the
world like everybody else had. So to come to the point and
live at this particular time, when all of that unfolds,
of course, amps up my zeal for the proclamation of
these truths and my desire to tell people you're living seeing this, you can't put your head in the sand. I talked to one very
well known theologian, and I said, well, what
does the establishment of the state of Israel mean biblically? And he said, it means absolutely nothing. And I said, how can you
possibly say it means absolutely nothing? It is exactly what the scripture
says was going to happen. So, you know, my goal
has been to tell people, get your head out of the sand,
you're living the fulfillment of this prophecy. And I know we're not yet in
that eschatological period that's completely defined
by the events of Daniel in the book of Revelation,
but boy, living up to the edge visibly, demonstrably, we see it in what's happening in Israel. - Well, some would say, okay, let's say that
there's amillennial kingdom and these theologians
would say, all right, and Israel will get those promises then, but we're not there yet, and therefore, the current state of Israel can't be biblical Israel because we're not at the fulfillment. Israel is unregenerate,
it's unrepentant, largely. - Sure. - So you've obviously
spent time with theologians who feel that way or who have that view. How do you respond to those arguments? - I don't think this is millennial Israel, I don't think God has brought
Israel to a place right now where they're enjoying the
fullness of his blessing, they can't, because
they've rejected his son. And when Jesus said at
the end of his ministry, your house has left you desolate, you didn't know the
time of your visitation, their back is still
turned to their Messiah, they still reject the Messiah. I think in that sense, Israel
has a measure of vulnerability Look, there are generations
of Jews who have died and perished in hell and
there are going to be more until they turn to their
Messiah and believe in him. So what I would say is this,
that Israel is protected in a measure and absolutely
preserved as a people until the future day of their salvation. But it is when that salvation
comes, that all the fullness of the promises given to
Abraham and David and reiterated in the prophets and in the new
covenant passages in Ezekiel and Zachariah and Jeremiah,
that all explodes on them when they turn to the one they've pierced, mourned for him as an only son
and a fountain of cleansing is open to them. But the fact that they
exist and that they're there is evidence that God is
working in that direction. - Absolutely, I agree with that. So, let's take a step back for a moment. Do you remember your first trip to Israel, when that was and why you went? - Well I went, primarily, way
back early in my ministry, I think probably early
70's and maybe middle 70's, and I wanted to go for biblical reasons. I didn't really have any
curiosities about the politics of Israel or even so much how
it squared with the prophecy at that time, although
I knew those things. I wanted to feel the land,
I wanted to see the places, and of course as you know, I mean the whole Bible just changes. It goes from black and white
to full color, just comes alive And so I would go, and
then I would go again and I would go again,
and I kept going back and I confess that while
we were always dragging a bunch of people, it was
my adventure to try to try to make the whole account of
scripture really come alive because I had been there. But everything I saw was evidence
again, of this astonishing preservation of God for
this very small group people that had been, really
been the target of killers for generations and they
just wouldn't go away. And so it was always
sort of mounting evidence of the hand of God preserving them. - Well, it is interesting. Is there a particular place in Israel that you have been more drawn to? - I like the place where
they haven't built a church. So give me the Hills of Galilee,
give me the sea of Galilee, you know, anywhere down the Jordan river. I obviously love the old
city, love the wailing wall, I've gone into some of the synagogues and even the synagogue by the wailing wall and, you know, my heart breaks. You know if I have one
regret, it's that I'm Scottish and I don't have any Jewish blood because all my heroes are
Jewish, all of them from Moses on through Jesus and everybody
else in the scripture. But I have a special
place in my heart for them and my heart reaches out to them. One of the ways God has,
sort of fulfilled my desire for Jewish people, is
that our church is full of Jewish Christians
who've come to Christ. The area where our church is
located, for many, many years has been a dominantly Jewish community. There's a synagogue
next door to our church, and it's been there the
whole duration of our church. And we're largely in that community. And I have seen the fact
that the Lord is calling Jews and Gentiles to himself, and they make up a huge
population of our church, and that's been a great
encouragement to me. One of my joys is that
the master's college has a campus 10 miles West of
Jerusalem, where our students go every semester and have
the opportunity to communicate personally on a one to one
basis, the gospel of Christ and to communicate with Jewish people, their love for the Lord Jesus and the truth about him as their Messiah. - So this, you know, for you, I think this is true
about your life overall, but it's important to point out this is not something
theoretical or intellectual. I mean, this plays itself out
in a practical way for you, God's heart for Jewish people
and for the nation of Israel, it plays out in a practical
way in your ministry. - It does, and I can give
you, at one point in time, I went to the Jerusalem
conference one year, there was a big conference in the 80's, and there were all kinds of speakers. And Dr. Feinberg, my mentor
was one of the speakers and I was there and there
was an amillennialist guy who got up, he was the president
of Westminster seminary. And he preached on Isaiah 9, the government should be upon
his shoulders and all that. And his point was, is the
government of your life on the shoulders of Christ? And I thought, what is he talking about? This isn't about somebody's personal life, this is about the rule of Christ. And then he went on to
give the amillennial spin, and he was followed by
Dr. Feinberg, he got up and he said in his inevitable
way, "So you had to come "all the way to Jerusalem to tell the Jews "that they get all the curses, literally, "but the blessings are
figurative and they're all passed to the church?" He said that from the podium. - Wow. - So it was like the knife went in, and that was a very defining
moment, which set in my mind the untenable character of that
view that says every promise of cursing in the old
Testament that came on Israel literally, but every promise of blessing has been somehow taken
away from them as a people and handed to the church, just is not a fair treatment of scripture. - Where did that come from in your view? I mean, how does theologians,
who describe themselves as teaching the word of
God, how did they get there? - We don't get there from
interpreting the Bible, because it's not there. You get there historically, it's in your sort of theological
DNA that gets passed down. I mean, you go back to 325,
325 the council of Nicaea. What are they doing in
the council of Nicaea? They're trying to define
the nature of Christ and they're getting it right. But in the process, they make
a declaration that the Jews are an odious people. And then you have Augustine come along and Augustine is a
flaming antisemitic guy, but he gets so much right about theology and that gets passed on and passed on. And then you have the
horrors of the antisemitism of the middle ages, you go
to Wittenberg and you look at your hero, Martin Luther,
and then you look at his church where he preached, and
there's a pig up there, you know, embedded in the
wall, carved into the wall that represents the Jewish people. And you realize that, what
started as a resentment against the Jews for killing
Christ, gained traction and expanded and exploded. And I actually believe that the contemporary
notion of amillennialism is this length of generations
from antisemitism. So they don't see it for what it is, but I think that's where
it was basically birthed, and it's been driven through the years by that sort of taking your theology from the last generation and passing it on because you can't find that in the Bible, it's just not there. The promises of God to Israel
are explicit and literal, clear, unmistakable and
repeated again and again and again and again. - And not just in the old
Testament but in the new. - No, in the new testament. I mean, I asked the question, was Jesus an amillennialist? Well, no, because they said
to him in Acts chapter one, the disciples said to
him, will you at this time bring the kingdom to Israel? Well, that would have been his
perfect amillennial moment. Well, where'd you get
a crazy idea like that? I mean, we're going to found
the church in the next chapter, so just cool your heels and then everything's going to change, it's not for you to know
the times and the seasons. He didn't obviate that, the
kingdom will come to Israel Later on-- - Well, if I can interject
just for a moment, you've pointed out
that, Luke is telling us right at the beginning of Acts, that they've just gone
through 40 days of teaching on the kingdom of God.
- [John] On the kingdom. - I mean, it's not like
this was not a topic, this was a central topic. - No, and the only
question they had is when? - When, not if. - When, is it now? And he said, well, that's
not for you to know, and then he goes on, in
the indictment of them, later in the book of Acts,
for killing the Prince of life and all of this Peter
says, and then he says, and you are the people of
the covenant, not you were, or not the covenant has been canceled. You are the people of the covenant. And of course, you know, you
get to the watershed passage in Romans 11, and Paul says,
the setting aside of Israel is temporary, it's partial
and all Israel will be saved. - Amen. I benefit from that so I'm very grateful. (laughs) - Well, I'm gonna be there.
- Yeah, amen. We're moving in that direction
and it is amazing to see really, I would trace
it to 1967, not even 48, though 48 was important. It's really after 67 that we
begin to see a dramatic growth in the number of Jewish people
coming to faith in Jesus as Messiah. There are obviously some in pre 48 and there are some between 48 and 67, but something happened in
the heavenlies that God began to lift this blindness, this hardness, because you've gone from just
a couple of dozen believers, Jewish believers in
Jesus, in Israel in 1948, maybe 24, 25 to 15,000 today. - [John] Is that right? - And most of that accelerated post 67 and much of it is in
the last 10 to 15 years. And then worldwide, in 67,
and I was born in April 67, so it's a benchmark for me. You know, there were maybe
2000 Jewish believers in Jesus on the entire planet in 1967 and now there's North of 250,000. So in a world of 14
million or so Jewish people we're not nearly to
all Israel being saved, but that acceleration is interesting. And it comes to a point
that I want to ask you about because you know, you see prophecies, let's say in Ezekiel 36, 37,
these are classic prophecies of the Jews being regathered to the land and Israel being reborn. But it would appear that the
physical restoration of Israel is described as being
prophesied as coming first and then a second prophecy
distinctly, you know, and then, the word says,
and then I will breathe life into these folks. So a spiritual restoration seems to trail the physical restoration. Is that the way you see it,
is that an accurate view? - I think that is the way I see it. That is an accurate reality, I think that's what the prophet is saying. The dry bones are gathered
together and then life is breathed into them. We're waiting for that to happen. That's Zachariah, when God initiates that and this is why I am so
convinced, if no other reason, that salvation is a sovereign work of God. Because in Zachariah 12:10,
when God desires to do it, the spirit of grace and
supplication will come on Israel and they will mourn for
the one they pierced. I think God is going to activate that, I think God activates all salvation through a regenerating work. And at any point in time,
whatever is happening is the work of God, and
it's clear that that work has expanded with regard to Israel, as you just pointed out historically, and the day will come when they look on the one whom they have pierced. And that will only happen
when God gives them the spirit of grace, it's grace and supplication, so that they cry out and they
have another view of Christ than they've ever had. Just a footnote to that, I just did a 10 part series on Isaiah 53. And it was just, I can't even describe what an amazing experience it was. And I'll just give you a simple, sort of an overview to look at it, the verbs are all in the past tense and the nouns are all plural. Who has believed the report given to us? To whom has the arm of
the Lord been revealed, all past tense. People look at Isaiah 53 and they say, that's a prophecy of Christ's death, he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities,
the chastisement of his peace, you know, and all of that. That's a prophecy of the
death of Christ, it isn't. It is not a prophecy
of the death of Christ, it isn't looking forward
to the death of Christ, it's looking backward
to the death of Christ. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. That is a prophecy of the
future salvation of Israel, when they see the one they've pierced and that will be their confession. They'll look back and say,
we didn't believe the report. We didn't esteem him, we
saw him and we thought he was being smitten by God and afflicted because he was a blasphemer. And now we know he was wounded
for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities,
and he goes through the whole litany of that. You know, that whole chapter
gives us the very verbiage that Israel will speak. When they look on the one
they've pierced and mourn, that's what they're going to
say, we didn't believe it. There was nothing about his life, there was nothing about his origin, there was nothing about his person, and then he was marred and
his death was ignominious, ah, now we see it. So to me, Isaiah 53 just rises
out of the old Testament. If you look at Isaiah, the
first 39 chapters are judgment, like the old Testament, the second 27 chapters are
salvation, like the new testament If you take the second 27, the first nine are the
deliverance from Babylon, the last nine, the deliverance
of the earth from the curse, the middle nine salvation for Israel. If you bore down into
the middle of those nine, you're in 53, if you bore down you're into verse five, he was wounded for our transgressions. I mean, the whole of that
chapter doesn't make any sense unless it's Israel making that confession. And then the fountain of
cleansing is open to them and Zachariah says it. - So this makes it all the more sinister, the effect, if not the motive
that people who are saying God is done with the Jews because
they rejected the Messiah. To follow that out, leads
to very dangerous places. And that's one side, that's
the replacement theology side. But there's another side,
in American evangelicalism, at least, we're gonna love Jews, we're going to bless Israel,
we're going to provide material and political support, but don't worry, we're not going to tell them about Jesus. You don't have to worry,
we're not going to preach the gospel because we know
that would be offensive. To me that is as antisemitic
as the other side because the result is
either you think Jews cannot have come to faith, or don't worry we won't try
to help them come to faith. I'm troubled by both. - With worse consequences. - [Joel] Yeah. - This is Romans 10, you
know, this is my heart. Paul says in nine, I could
wish myself a cursed. you know, if cursing me could
bring the salvation of Israel. I have a zeal for them, I
have a passion for them, and they have a zeal for God,
but not according to knowledge Then he goes down through,
they missed so many things, they don't understand
the righteousness of God. They think God is less
righteous than he is, they think they're more
righteous than they are so they can please God by their works. And then he goes through that whole thing, and he finally says, how
are they going to hear if you don't preach. Faith comes by hearing the
message concerning Christ. So our obligation is the
obligation of Romans 1, Paul says, I am debtor to the
Jew, what do I owe the Jew? I don't owe the Jew a political support, I don't owe the Jew economic
stability or military backup, I owe him the gospel,
that's my obligation. - It's important, obviously,
that our understanding of the scriptures lead
us to action, right? We can't just say I believed it and it became an intellectual
or theoretical exercise, for some it is, but I
think that if we understand the heart of the gospel
and the heart of God's love for a lost people, the Jews are as lost as the Gentiles, sadly. And it's worse for us in a sense, because we ought to have known better. This is why we were made, to know Christ and to make him known. - Well, it's a horror
what you're talking about, because you have Jesus looking
at the city of Jerusalem and weeping and saying how
often I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her
brood, but you would not. You've been killing the
profits and stoning everybody that's sent to you, and
now look what you've done. But he weeps, I mean, his heart is broken. And then you go into the
epistles and Paul says, look, we are debtors to the Jews. We have to take the gospel to them. If we get caught up in trying
to make sure we don't offend the Jews, we'll have to answer to the Lord for a very serious violation
of the very reason we're here in this world, and that
is to proclaim the gospel. First to the Jew, you know,
Jesus, first to the Jew. You know, um, I have
come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel first. And I think that obligation still is on every Christian's heart. It should be on every Christian's heart - I hope so, and I'm
grateful for the Gentiles that didn't say, Oh, Joel,
he's got some special deal or, oh Joel, he's too dumb to
get it, or he's blind as a bat or all the different ways
that you can make it seem like this shouldn't, this
gospel shouldn't motivate me to take it to Jewish people
or bless them in certain ways, you know, and in the full scope of the way the gospel speaks. - Well, if you take
them out of the picture, you know, God's cursed
them, he's done with them, the church is everything, then it's easy to shirk
that responsibility. And I think that's part
of the disastrous fallout of that replacement
theology, is that obligation, that passion with the
confidence that Isaiah had in chapter six, when God
said to him, who will I send? And he says, I think out
of fear, here am I send me, cause of what he had just seen. - And a wish to be restored. - Yeah, and the Lord says, well go. And he says, Oh, by the way,
nobody's going to listen, nobody's going to see,
nobody's going to understand. And so he says, well,
how long would I do that? And he says, you keep doing
it until there are no people left, until there's nobody to talk to. Well, why would I do that? And then I love how that chapter ends, he says, because there's a
stump, there's a Holy seed, there's a remnant. And that's true in every
generation, there's a remnant. And for this generation, we
want to reach that remnant, but there's coming a day in the future when it won't just be a remnant. After the rebels are purged
out, as the prophet says, the whole nation will come to Christ. - Some theologians, some
pastors, even in this modern era are saying, okay, Israel
is not currently repentant. They're not regenerate, I mean, okay, yes, more Jews are coming to faith, but in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about mass numbers. Not like what's going on
in China or other places. So therefore current Israel,
current geopolitical Israel cannot be, the early
stages of biblical Israel, that's heading into, you
know, heading towards the amillennial kingdom
because they're not repentant. I want to bring you back to
this point from Ezekiel 36 and 37 we were talking about
a little bit earlier is, is it accurate that the
physical restoration will begin and then the spiritual
restoration will lag behind it but accelerate? Because if that's accurate,
then those, I would say, you know, just to pick one
example would be John Piper who would say, I totally believe
that there'll be a restored Israel one day and, and a saved Israel but current Israel can't be
that because the repentance of the entire nation hasn't come first. So whether it's responding
to him directly, or just, you know, to that view, how would you respond to that? - I would say this, there
has to be a restored, duly constituted, national
Israel, geographically. There has to be. Because in prophecy, you have
the rebuilding of the temple in prophecy you have
the people in the land, in prophecy, you have the
North attacking Israel, you have the east attacking,
you have the West attacking, you have the South attacking. I mean, it's clear that the
world focus is against the Jews and they're in that geographical location when, you know, Daniel Levin
and all those kinds of things break loose they're there. And as you said, Ezekiel
talks about the dry bones being gathered, there's no way to say, well, the fact that they're
in the land is meaningless. They have to be in the land
when the spiritual revival comes in the midst of all of this. Now, if you take Zachariah,
for example, Zachariah starts out in chapter 12 where
the nations of the world coming against Jerusalem,
coming from all over everywhere, and the Lord will not let them
defeat Jerusalem and Israel. Israel is not saved yet, they
don't get saved until 13:1 but in chapter 12, the onslaught
of the world is on them. And so they have to be there,
I mean, that's not a stretch. The fact that they're, that's
like my friend who said, it doesn't matter that they're
there, ff course it matters. They have to be there. They have to be there
for negative reasons, to sign a pact of preservation
with the antichrist. And so what we're seeing
right now is so vivid a fulfillment, anticipatory,
preliminary fulfillment of the upcoming salvation of Israel, that really is unmistakable. - Well, you just pointed out, I think one of the strongest
cases for unrepentant Israel to be in the land as a physical nation, a geopolitical nation, in
addition to Ezekiel 38, 39. And as Daniel 9, where I think a lot more new Testament commentators
are somehow more comfortable with Daniel 9 than they
seem to be with Ezekiel, this is my impression. But if the nation of Israel
is in the land to sign a covenant with the many nations around it and the antichrist, it has to be there. I mean, this is the point,
there can't be a temple unless they're there. - You can't have dispersed
Jews signing a covenant, they've got to be a
collected, gathered people seeking protection. - And yet this is a thought
that does seem lost, even in the heads of major
evangelical organizations. All right now, what about the,
uh, let's stay on that topic for a moment. Israel coming back out
of Egypt was unrepentant, though that entire generation
with the exception of Joshua and Caleb perished, however,
even still as they enter the land, they're not even circumcised. It's not until after
they get into the land that they realized, wait,
I think this is important, I think scripturally we're
supposed to be circumcised and that happens after they reenter. I just wanna get your comment on that, and then the second regathering
after the Babylonian exile, I don't see Israel as being repentant and scripturally minded
until as Ezra's reading of the word of God to the people, and they're already in the land and they're sort of
rejoicing that they're back, but now they're reading the
word or hearing the word of God, and they're moved to deep repentance. Is that accurate that
Israel was not repentant on either regathering? - No, I think you're absolutely accurate. The evidence that they weren't repenting when they came out of Egypt is
that they made a golden calf that was supposed to be a
representative of the true God and worshiped him, and
you know, the slaughter and the debacle that
happened as a result of that. And of course they all
died in the wilderness. No, that's absolutely
true, and I think it's true in the regathering. And it wasn't until the
word of God was read and the people repented and all of that, so you could draw analogies from that, that's not necessarily a prophecy, that's not necessarily an absolute-- - [Joel] A pattern, perhaps. - But it is a pattern, it's an analogy, and I think it's a fair
analogy that one can use. At least it gives us historical
precedent for God bringing his people back to do a
saving work in their hearts, and I think that's fair to say. - The reason I think it's
important to press on those points is because while Ezekiel does
give that specific prophecy of physical restoration and
then spiritual restoration, you know, Moses language does
seem to be, if you obey me then you get to stay
and you'll be blessed. And if you don't, you'll be
removed, but if you repent then you can return, so
there's that feeling. And I think it gets picked
up by modern commentators as, if then, if you're repentant
then I'll bring you back. But I think, both by the
specific texts or prophecies of Ezekiel, among others,
but then also by the pattern, it seems like God shows sovereign grace to a people that honestly has
no intention of repenting. If God didn't start into
motion something that, that was beyond us, I would say. I would say us, not just them. - That is very fair to say. One of the things that
you have to recognize is that the future salvation of Israel has already been determined. That's about as reformed as you can get. It is determined, it is
declared, it is prophesied. And even details around that, accompanying elements of
history are prophesied as to the things that are going
to be happening around that. 144,000 are going to be preaching
the gospel, two witnesses are going to be killed
and preach the gospel, an angel in heaven is
going to preach the gospel, and God is going to come
and open their hearts and cleanse them, that's
a saving work of God. I would draw the conclusion
that that's how God always saves by a sovereign predetermined work that he then acts out in history. So yes, I think in one sense
there's an analogy there, but in another sense, in no case, let's say, and going into
Israel was the nation necessarily saved? And not coming out of the Exodus
and not necessarily coming out of the captivity. There was a moment in time, you remember, when they all said, you know,
we will obey, we will obey, and it went pretty South from there. But what you have in the
eschatological salvation of Israel is a true salvation. And that's defined in Jeremiah 31 to 34, they get a new heart, the
whole nation gets new hearts, the spirit is placed within them, the washing of regeneration takes place and they don't have to be
taught anymore to love, and you know all of that. That is the national salvation
of Israel that I don't think has any parallel in the past. Even in the words of Paul,
not all Jews are real Jews, in Romans 2, but boy in that
day, there will be a full salvation of the covenant
people and they will receive the promises of God. - In other words, you know,
not all Israel is Israel, not all ethnically Jewish people-- - [John] Are true Jews. - Will believe the Jewish Messiah, and that would be the true
Jew, biblically speaking. - [John] Right. By the way just as a
footnote, I mentioned to you a little bit earlier, the
word Israel is used 2000 times in the Bible, I think 74 in the new, and it always means Israel. - [Joel] National Israel. - Always means Israel, never
means anything but Israel. So when you read Israel,
that's exactly what it means. That would end a lot of
speculation about whether Israel is the church. - Amen to that - Now a big part of this
particular project is, those of you who were born before these major Bible prophecies came to pass, and that's really an extraordinary thing. That you've seen something
that, you know, pastors and preachers for 1900
years had longed to see, you got to see it. And now it's, how do we pass down this scriptural understanding, this biblical understanding of God's heart for Israel and her neighbor,
who I want to talk about that in a little bit as well. But this transmission,
currently as well as down through the ages is pretty important. And you came out with
a new book this year, "Christ's Prophetic Plans,"
you helped edit that and wrote some of it. And I just wanted to quote a
portion because it struck me as really relevant to this
discussion of transmitting this down to younger people. You wrote on page 154, "In
recent years, the spirit of God "has been moving in the American
church to revive a passion "among his people for
the doctrines of grace. "Now that the glorious high
ground of sovereign election "in salvation is being
rediscovered, it is also time "to reestablish the equally
high ground of sovereign grace "for our future generation of
ethnic Israelites in salvation "and in the establishment of
the messianic earthly kingdom "with the complete fulfillment
of all of God's promises to Israel" And you know, that this particular chapter that you're writing, which was entitled, "Does Calvinism lead to a
futuristic pre millennialism." I'm hoping I'm not losing
people, but it is important, and we'll define a few of these terms. But that this chapter is a call to those of a reformed
mindset to reconsider their eschatology or end
times theology in light of their commitment to
literal hermeneutics, interpretation of
scripture and the doctrine of sovereign election. Basically, you seem to make
the point that a reformed theologian who believes
that God has chosen people for salvation, ought to
believe therefore, that God has chosen Israel and
won't break those promises. Now, not everyone who
will be watching this comes from a reformed perspective, but this is a really important piece here. And I told you when we first met by phone, that when I heard a message that you gave to reformed pastors, saying Calvinist should be
sort of leading the league, as it were, I don't think
those were the exact words but to paraphrase on this
idea that you, of course, God has a plan for national
Israel, ethnic Israel, both in terms of salvation
and in this physical and geopolitical restoration. Those who believe in election
ought to be leading that area but they're not. So talk a little bit about
why reformed theologians generally are perceived as
widely, replacement theologians, or some subset of that. - [John] Sure. - And then we'll talk about
sort of why you believe that's the exact wrong
approach, doctrinally. - Well, I think reformed
theologians pick up so much from their history. The very fact that they
call themselves reformed pushes you back to the 18th
century, the 17th century, the 16th century, when
all of that theology was basically coming
out of the reformation, being refined and developed. So they're historically
connected, they're creedal, so they pick up ancient creeds and the more ancient
the creed the more noble it becomes to them. So there's a certain kind of hero worship, there's a certain kind of
history that they revere and they honor, and of
course you have to realize that coming out of the reformation they were reaffirming the gospel which had been literally
smothered by the Roman Catholic system for a thousand years. So we have to applaud
what they rediscovered, Sola Scripturas, you
know, all of those things. But you don't have to
buy the whole package. There's a certain thing in history called the progress of dogma,
theologians talk about that, not all doctrines were
refined at the very same time but there's a flow in
history in which doctrine was defined first, the nature of God, then the nature of Christ, then the nature of the
gospel gets worked on. And unfortunately with the
reformation at the ending, the ecclesiology, I might
say, and the eschatology never really got refined. That's why you have confusion
about what the church is, about sacramental means of grace, confusion about infant baptism, and then you have massive
confusion about eschatology and they sort of punt at that point, and you know, it's fourth
down, we'll just punt, we'll turn the ball over to somebody else. I just think that that's not
a place where you can land if you want to be faithful to
give the whole counsel of God. So my goal has been as
someone who is a part of that movement to say, as you put it, of all people on the planet, you would say that whatever God promised
to do, he will do. And if he canceled his promises to Israel, I'm getting nervous because
he might cancel them to the church, because
I'm banking my eternity on the fact that he's going
to be faithful to the promises he made to his church. But if he decided to change
his mind with regard to Israel, that's a problem. Plus I think the other thing is this, these guys in reform
theology are the paragons of exegetical effort and
hermeneutical consistency on dealing with the doctrines of grace. I mean, they will parse every
word down to the gnat's eye on every aspect that
relates to the gospel, but when they come to eschatology-- - And you see that as positive. - Of course, we're all
beneficiaries of it, right? We love it and we do it, but when you come to a prophetic passage, you know, I've actually
quoted guys who said, we've got to change your hermeneutics or we're going to end
up being pre-millennial based on what this says. So we can't just let it say what it says or we're going to end up
in that terrible place of pre millennials, which
is kind of like a purgatory of sorts, I guess to them. So they just invent new
means of interpretation, and my message to them is
hold fast to the enduring high ground of your view of
scripture, take God at his word, and the nature of God is revealed there as absolutely sovereign and unchanging and take the high ground
of biblical interpretation. Don't tamper with the rules
and you're going to come to the right answer. And it isn't confusing, it
isn't obscure, it isn't oblique, it's there. I don't think this is an obfuscation, I think it's revelation,
and I think God's purpose is to make it clear. And I think it can be
understood if you're faithful to interpret it the way you
interpret everything else. - So to boil all that down, you're saying that the same Bible interpretation principles that
a reformed theologian applies to the rest of scripture
needs to be consistent. You're saying that the
lack of understanding of Bible prophecy and
specifically prophecies related to national and ethnic
Israel is an inconsistency in reform theology. - Well, if I say God so
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, how
would you interpret that? (chuckles) If I said, so all Israel will be saved, how would you interpret that? Are you gonna change the
rules on me and tell me that doesn't mean Israel? That's not fair, that's
so utterly arbitrary, it's more than arbitrary, it's an injustice done to scripture. - And just to be clear, you're
saying that the main reason that people do it is
because they're drawing that from historical figures. - And that's been repeated and repeated-- - So if he said it, and he's a hero-- - Yeah, and it's in their
literature and it's defended and it's passed down, and
it's placed in the creeds, and there is a long term reformed indifference to eschatology. It's a kind of indifference, it isn't that they are all
amillennialists, they aren't, in fact, I know very prominent
guys that have gone through every possible option
in a five year period. Because if it doesn't mean what it says, then it could mean a thousand things. - Right. - So I just think they take
ownership of the greatness of their theological forefathers
and the great contributions they made and they just sort
of stop where they stopped rather than coming all
the way to the fullness of what scripture reveals. - And part of that, you
point out in this book is, there was an inconsistency
in John Calvin himself when it came to these issues. - Sure, it goes even
before him to Augustine, upon whom Calvin based so much. Calvin wrote commentaries
on every book of the Bible except Revelations. So he's the model for punting
when you come to eschatology. - But as I said to you earlier,
I think that's actually good because I think we'd have
to be unweaving, you know, all the rest of that. But anyway, it is
interesting that he decided that was too difficult. - No, you know what would
happen if he had written on Revelation, we'd have
only one wrong view. Cause they'd all pile on Calvin. (laughs) - Well, you point out
another point in this book, which I found very helpful,
again, a range of theologians, not a range of views,
but just different people writing different chapters. You said, "Even today,"
now this is page 142, "Even today, if one were to
survey leaders of the so called "young, restless, reformed
movement on the issue "of eschatology, the
consensus would be that "there is no consensus. "Many conservative evangelical
pastors regard the end times "as somewhat unimportant
or even dangerous. "A hindrance to unity and
an issue on which doctrinal clarity is impossible to achieve." Talk to me a little bit more about that, cause again, you are
influencing this world, it's a world that you're standing in and that you understand well. Because you agree on a vast majority of the doctrinal issues. Let's talk about the younger generation and their disinterest, of Israel, and then that coming out of
the disinterest in eschatology. - But it's a perfect
illustration of the very point I'm making, they're
following their leaders. They're following this latest
generation of reformed guys who are following the last generations, going all the way back and
they all take the same thing and just pass it on down. The reason the young, you
know and I have to say as a footnote, this is against
the grain of everything that's woven into the
fabric of their thinking because they're strong on
the authority of scripture veracity and errancy,
strong on the nature of God, the nature of Christ, they
are relentlessly strong on every minute detail of the gospel. I mean they will go down
to the very smallest detail and proclaim the truth of the gospel. They're on all of those things,
fastidious, and careful, and thoughtful, and
profound, and far ranging in terms of handling scripture
to bear upon that truth. And then they come to
eschatology and they say, ah, I don't really care about that. It's like a personality shift
and why do they get that? Because the conferences they
go to the guys who are talking at the conference, that's their attitude. And that was the attitude
of the last generation that they sat under, this
is the point I'm making. So I'm trying to be a bit
iconoclastic in this realm. And at first, you know, there
was a guy named John Gerstner, you may know that name. He is a paragon reformed
intellectualism, brilliant, genius level reformed
scholar, who said about me because I was so on target on the gospel. He said MacArthur appears
to be a clear thinker, but it is obvious that
he's not a clear thinker because he ended up where
he did eschatologically. So I can't even explain
how he got to the truth of the gospel when it's clear
that he doesn't think right or never would have ended
up with that eschatology. So, you know, I started
out in the movement as that kind of guy, you
know, there's a problem here. We don't know whether
this happened by luck on the gospel or what. But it's moved from there,
I can tell you Joel. Because I've tried to show
them exegetically from the text through commentaries, sermons,
conferences, seminars. I've tried to show them that
you have to handle the word of God the same way, you're
passing on the wrong legacy. And if ever there was a
generation that has no excuse, you have no excuse. Look at Israel, you have no
excuse for the conclusions that you're drawing. God is fulfilling
prophecy before your eyes and you're sticking your head in the sand. - The sad, unintended
consequence I think of this, is that a lot of Jews wouldn't
be able to hear theology, the truth about Jesus
and him being the Messiah and his love for us through this group. Because the first thing is, and you think God's done with us? So it's hard to get to the
Jesus's heart for Jewish people, for salvation, if he doesn't
have a heart for us as a people as a nation. And I think that the point
that you, I'm sure this is not the first book that you've
ever made this point, but that reformed theology does not lead, sort of intrinsically, to
this rejection of Israel. In fact, your view is it should
lead to the exact opposite. I think that's an important
thing, but I'm not sure-- - It's an incomplete theology-- - Those who teach this realize that it's having a gospel effect, a negative gospel effect
on Jews who cannot hear the heart of what they're
saying that is true because of the mistakes that
they're making in terms of Israel and Jews. - Well, just to sort of set
an antidote in people's minds, an anecdote in people's minds, how effective has it been for
me through the years to say, do you have any idea of
what God has planned for you as a Jew? Do you have any idea of his
promises to you as a people, as a nation? Do you have any idea of the
future that God has established for you? This coming Sunday night,
I'm going to preach on the Messiah. What is the Messiah? What does the word mean? Well, how many messiahs were
there in the old Testament? Well, there were many
messiahs with a small m, but there was one ultimate
fulfilling Messiah, and he is the Messiah of Israel, as well as the savior of the world. Just talking to a Jew,
I mean, you take them to a completely different
place than if you were to say to a Jew, I hate to tell
you this, but you know, whatever you read in the
old Testament that God may have promised to your
people, that's for us. I mean, that's a downer - That is downer.
- Yeah. - If it were true, then you
know, then we'd be in trouble. - Right. - The fact that it's not true
and others teaching truth. Well now let's switch
this, let's turn this to, because bad theology, incorrect
theology, flawed theology has implications. It certainly has implications
in terms of Jewish evangelism. But I think that's also true
about Arabs and Persians and the neighbors. So a colleague of mine, I did
not hear the message myself, but a colleague of mine
listened through your series on Jonah, and I love Jonah,
I have a son named Jonah. I've actually taken Jonah
to a pastors conference we did in Northern Iraq so we could go, not so that, but we happened
to also visit Nineveh together. And I think you made the point
that, in very strong language that God had a great love
for Israel's enemies, her neighbors, and yet Jonah
had no interest in that. Talk about your heart and your biblical, well your heart first, God's
heart for Israel's neighbors, none of the things that
we're saying means, and therefore God hates
or wants discrimination against Israel's neighbors or anything. - I would come at that
from Romans 10 and 11, because, you know, we all
know the part in Romans 11 about, so all Israel will be saved, has God rejected Israel? No, no, no, may it never, never be. We all know that he's
going to save Israel, but in the prior chapter
10, as he begins to lay out the litany of what the
Jews don't understand, you don't understand the
righteousness of God. So you go about to establish
your own righteousness, you don't understand that
Christ is the end of the law, that he brings an end to the idea of a law as a means of salvation. You don't understand
justification by faith, and it's not of works, it's faith, and you don't understand that. And you also don't understand this, you don't understand that
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And this is again an indictment
of their isolationism, of their almost racial
approach to their own religion. You know, from the very
outset of the old Testament, and when God, in Isaiah 61,
talked about the Messiah coming, he said, the gospel is
going to the Gentiles. It's going to the planet,
to the ends of the earth. And then in John 3,
God so loved the world. - Well, starting in Genesis
12, that all the families of the earth will be blessed. - Yeah, all the families of
the earth should be blessed through the seed that's born of Abraham, not seeds, but a seed, Paul
says in Galatians the Messiah. So, the intent of the gospel
to simply put it this way was that Israel would be the
channel to take the truth of the one true God to the world. Not that they were the
end, they were the means, and when they were an unfaithful
means, God set them aside temporarily, called out a
church made of Jew and Gentile, recommissioned them to
take this great glorious saving message to the ends of the earth. To the ends of the earth. So, you know, there's a
principle in the words of Jesus, to whom much is given much is required. And I think the massive unbelief of Israel has brought massive judgment upon Israel, while on the one hand you
could say they are the people of God blessed, boy it has
been a very mixed blessing. They have had access to blessings, but they have been more
subjected to cursing and tragedy and harm because they were given so much; You know, the law, the prophets,
the adoption, the Messiah, they had it all, everything. And when they turned their back on it, the price has been very high. So they have endured a
terrible punishment from God through the centuries, even
up until now for the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ. But in any generation, at
any time, Jew or Gentile, the gospel is extended to
all who put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. And for the period of
time in which we live now, and I think all the way until
Jesus comes and establishes his kingdom, we are to take the gospel to absolutely everyone. I love in the book of Revelation, I think during the time of tribulation, there'll be the greatest
revival in the history of the world, people will
come from every tongue, tribe, people and nation. That's the heart of God,
that's the plan of God. And I recently did a conference
at our church and invited all the pastors of Arabic congregations from all over the state of California. We came together to
fellowship around Christ and around his word and
acknowledge the unique place that Israel has had as a
means for God to communicate his glory to the world. And they failed and they're judged, but there will come a
time of their salvation. In the meantime, God is
calling out a people from Arabs and from every other racial
group across the planet to become his church
and to carry his message to the ends of the earth. - So clearly God has a
heart for all peoples, it doesn't matter, you know,
whether Jew or Gentile. Let's talk a little bit about Jonah, 'cause I think that's an interesting case, where you've got a prophet of Israel, a man who knows the word of God, he's preached the word of God, he's been given the word
of God and he won't take it to an enemy. Take a moment, just exposit
for a moment on Jonah. - Well, first of all, the
principle that our Lord gave is in Matthew 5, is that
you're never more like God than when you love your enemies, right? This is evidence that
you're a child of God, because God loves his enemies
because we're all his enemies, while we were enemies, Christ died for us. So you're never more like God than when you love your enemies. Jonah was a lousy illustration of that, the thing he feared most was
the conversion of the Gentiles. He didn't want them honing in on his God because he knew the character of his God, the generosity of his God, the goodness, and the grace of his God. And he didn't want the
Gentiles to have that. He was a very racist kind of guy. Well, of course, as the story unfolds, he would go to extremes to avoid
evangelizing these Gentiles and so he ends up, you know, in a fish and then getting vomited up. But the worst part of
the story is he goes, he finally has no choice, he preaches, the whole city repents. - He doesn't even tell them to repent, just tells them judgments coming. - No, he just tells
them judgment is coming, and they all repent
under the power of God, and he wants to commit suicide. He wants to die because he
doesn't think he can live in a world where these people cash
in on the blessings of God. I mean, that is just a
mind boggling attitude, but that attitude in all
honesty existed in Israel at that time. And is a front to the
heart of God that extends beyond his people. God's love, never ended with his people, it went through his people to the world. - That's right. So this brings us the point
where I want to sort of begin to land the plane as it
were in this conversation, although I'd love it to continue, cause I'm really enjoying this. One side of international, but certainly American Christianity, is God is done with the
Jews, replacement theology and a misunderstanding of God's heart for national ethnic Israel. But the other side of it is,
again, this God does love Israel and such a pro Israel
view that it's so dominant in speaking it out and in acting on it, there is at least an impression,
if not an actual belief, that God does not care for
Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians,
Lebanese, Iranians Iraqis. So talk a little bit about
how that plays itself out in your life. And you talked about having a
conference with Arab pastors, I believe you said in this past year, the MacArthur study Bible
has actually been published in Arabic. Talk a little bit about
your heart for the neighbors based on what you see in scripture. - What God has planned for
ethnic Israel is unique. That is a national future
to be fulfilled, literally. That is separate from what
God has planned for the world and what God planned for
the world was that his son would die and provide salvation for people from every tongue, tribe
and nation on the planet. That is the massive heart of God. God has a unique plan
for Israel as a nation, and that is in the future to save them. That is, in a sense
eschatologically isolated from the history of redemption. And right now God is gathering
a people from every land on the planet. That's why we have the great
commission to go to everywhere in the world. But for me personally, when
I was approached by folks in the middle East, who said
to me, would you allow us to translate the MacArthur
study Bible into Arabic? I was off the floor about six feet because the thing that I fear
is because I have been strong on what the word of God says about Israel, that I would be misread. There is no Hebrew, or I
don't know what they call the language, the modern Hebrew, there's no modern Hebrew
MacArthur study Bible. I've been asked if I
would consider that, sure. But I couldn't be more thrilled that there is a modern Arabic study Bible. And there may be some other
clandestine things like that as well because that
balances that concern. Yes, I take the scripture,
there is a future for ethnic Israel and a
salvation for that people. But that is in itself a promise of God, the bigger and the grander scheme of God, is to redeem people from every
tongue and tribe and nation and to call the church to be the tool and the means by which that happens, as we're faithful to the great commission. - There seems to be a deeply unfortunate sense of almost a zero sum relationship between having a biblical
understanding and love for Israel and a biblical understanding
and love for Palestinians and Arabs and others, and
I don't understand that. I don't see that scripturally
and yet even some that I admire, others I'm
glad they love Israel, but I'm not sure if I understand
where they're coming from theologically, but there
is that polarization that you're either pro-Palestinian
or you're pro Israel as though this is the dividing line that scripture has set up when it has not. - No, and I think you just
have to be pro gospel. We just sent two of the
graduates of the master seminary to the middle East, into the Arab world to give their lives to
teach pastors and leaders in the church to strengthen the churches, to expand the gospel
through the Arab world. That's a commitment on
our part financially, and with some of the finest
young families that we have in our church that have
come through our seminary. We have that commitment and,
you know, wherever the Lord opens those doors for
us to go, we want to go. But I do think, I think
Christians need to work extra hard to demonstrate love for the Palestinians. You know, one of the
really wonderful things that's happening in our
church is an increasing number of people from the Arabic world,
coming to faith in Christ. We actually have Bible studies in Arabic, you'll appreciate this
Joel, every sermon I preach at Grace Church, every Sunday
morning and Sunday night, is live streamed. That means it can go around
the world in two languages, English and Arabic. - [Joel] Is that right? I didn't know that. - English and Arabic. Why Arabic? Because the demand has been so high and we've had to increase
the band capacity on the Arabic side. And so I preach, and there's
a guy in a studio putting Arabic words to my lips, and we get mail from small groups of
Arabs around a computer in the middle East who are
listening to the preaching of the word of God. - Wow. - Only two languages, English and Arabic. - That's great. Well, I want to conclude
then on two last questions. Question number one is,
the importance of preaching and teaching the word of
God in an expository way, why that's important and why
you think there's a growing interest in the middle East in that. 'Cause I agree that there is,
though it's not nearly enough in my view. And then the second last
one would be your counsel towards younger pastors,
people going into the ministry, how to communicate God's heart
for Israel and her neighbors. You know, if the Lord tarries
in the generation to come. So first just the importance
of preaching the scriptures and the whole counsel of God. - Well, just to make it as
simple as I can make it, the meaning of the
scripture is the scripture. You don't have the message from God if you don't have the meaning. So interpreting scripture is what we do. I mean, that's all you do as a pastor. I'm not the chef, I'm the waiter, you know, God cooks the
meal, I need to deliver it. What else do I do but explain
the meaning of scripture, preach the word? So I think sermonizing
on topics and themes has a place. But the consistent explanation
of the meaning of scripture carries the power because the
truth is what has the power, the power is in the
word of God, understood, accurately interpreted. And again, I would say the
meaning of the scripture is the scripture. So if you don't know the
meaning of that scripture, you don't have the revelation from God. So as a servant of the
Lord, it is to give people the meaning of the scripture. Now, correspondent to that, that interest, once that appetite is
met, will grow like crazy. I can tell you that. Because once, you know, people
are starving for the word of God delivered that way,
but they don't know it because they haven't heard it. Once they've heard it, and
once they begin to interact, literally with the true
meaning of scripture, the Bible comes alive to them, it becomes powerful in
their lives, they love it, they embrace it, they look forward to it. And so I think if there
can be some models of this in Israel, some men who do
this, do it well, the people... Listen, man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds
out of the mouth of God, every word. God's true, church hungers for that, they just don't have that
developed appetite yet. So if people will begin to
do that, it'll take over, it really will. - I was thinking that we
were just doing a conference in Israel, as well as,
it's exact same conference in the West bank with
a Palestinian pastors, both who have more, we were
taking them through Titus, just verse by verse line by
line, and it was interesting. And it was so powerful to just think about God's heart for just
communicating these basic truth and that this is not, you
know, this is not new. I like your point that we're not the chef we're the waiter of this. And I do think there
is a growing interest, but I do think because it hasn't been as widely practiced and modeled
there haven't been enough Paul's training their Titus's to go through the scriptures this way. It is something that has
to be sort of rediscovered, but even, you know, when
we're talking about, at one point I was closing
up at the end of Titus and I was talking about God's
heart for Titus and Timothy. And I just used the example,
with Timothy in 1st Timothy, at least he says, I'm
paraphrasing, but at the minimum at least read, devote
yourself to the public reading of scripture, you know, and then of course in the second letter, preach the word. And so I think if people could
just hear the word of God, just read to them at the minimum, that's going to have a profound effect. - And that's what we're
finding out in that little, that little band every Sunday
morning and every Sunday night that's going out in Arabic
and people are gathering around it for the first time
hearing expository preaching in the Arabic language. And that's why it's beginning to expand. - That's amazing. All right, so as we wrap
this up, as you look at this, you know, you've been in
ministry for over 40 years, you have taught through
every word and verse of the new Testament,
as well as expositing on some old Testament
passages as well and books. And you see, I think, clearly
there is a sharp divide over this understanding both
of Israel, particularly, and then, you know,
prophecy more generally. What is your counsel to
young men who are growing in the faith and are
going to be teaching this to pastors, if the Lord
tarries and if there is time, maybe we don't have
that, but we don't know. So, looking out and sort of
saying that there is another generation or more, how would
you counsel them to understand and communicate God's
truth, his heart for Israel and the neighbors? - You know, I would say in all honesty, if you want to really do it well, you need to do exposition
of the scripture. Because everything is in perfect
harmony and perfect balance in the word of God, you're
going to see it all there. If you just took the book
of Romans and went through the book of Romans verse by
verse, by verse, by verse, you would end up theologically
exactly where you should be. You would have the
right view of scripture, you'd have the right view of
God, the Holy spirit, Christ, the right view of salvation, the right view of sanctification, the right view of the role of Israel and the right view of preaching
the gospel to everybody because whoever calls on the
name of the Lord will be saved. And if he went from chapter 12 to 16, you'd have the right view
of how you live your life on every level. I think it goes back to
getting off hobby horses, getting off kind of
topical kinds of things, and letting the word of God come alive with its perfect balance. And I also think that to teach a gospel, to see the heart of Christ
is the most life changing experience that a preacher can ever have. You need to think like he thought, and when Paul said we
have the mind of Christ, he doesn't mean something
mystical about a certain issue. He means here on the pages of this book, we have the mind of Christ. So if having gone through
the new Testament, I know the mind of Christ revealed there, and there's where the
passion for Israel comes, and there's where the passion for the rest of the world
comes, it's all there. And I would add too,
don't think about ministry as a short term thing, think
about it as a longterm thing. Every memorable pastor
who left a mark on history stayed in the same place for a long time. That puts you through the word
of God at an enduring level and gives range and depth
and breadth to your ministry. - Wow. Thank you, John. Thank you for what you've
done all these years. You've let the Lord use you
to teach the word of God, and I thank you for taking time for me as a younger generation
to try to help communicate to others these critical truths. Thank you very much. - My pleasure, thank you. - Subscribe to our videos. By clicking the subscribe
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