JOHN MACARTHUR — Biblical Convictions, Q&A | TMAI 2021 Int'l Symposium — Modern Reformation

there's anybody who is recognized for taking a stance on biblical convictions uh it's our friend john mcarthur so john thanks for joining us for this my pleasure mark thank you for sure thanks for asking you bet well i have a few questions for you so i'll start with the first one just let you respond sure i know in your own personal ministry you've been a student of the reformation and when you consider the things that were major contributing factors to the progress of the reformation maybe summarize for us what some of those factors were and where you see those at work today in the church two things come to mind immediately one was the ability for people to read and at the same time the invention of the printing press sure there was no way for the average person to get to the truth prior to the printing press and the ability to read in the early years of luther he had a sidekick named krennic who was an artist and because most of the people were illiterate he painted cartoons that luther used to basically dispel any confidence that people had in the catholic church by picturing them in these bizarre ways in these cartoons but it wasn't long before literacy came people could read that was absolutely critical to the reformation because when they could read they could read luther they could read the other reformers they could read the bible and the other thing that made the reformation what it is is is really how god always works a few key persons i mean if you go to geneva today and see the wall in geneva there are four statues there and it's not that those were the only four people that god used during the reformation because it was a massive thing but but there are always sort of um i don't know sort of everest's you know in the mountain range of of christian ministry people who for whatever reason stand out and most frequently they were the ones who either wrote significantly and accurately theologically sound material or had an influence on other people who wrote it's writing down things that creates a movement and that that's true historically now today unfortunately the internet social media and you know just a very few words can create a bad movement but to create a good movement that takes deep thinking and even god wrote a book because that's the way you communicate where people can read and analyze and think about what it is that they're they're being told so yeah it was the printing press it was literacy and it was some major figures who influenced everybody else and that's always the way god works i think we might underestimate the impact that key individuals through history have had unless we know church history if we know church history we understand that yeah excellent and to the point of those same dynamics being at work today we have new technology we knew have new opportunities to dispel and dispense sound theological resources i know you devote your life to not only preaching but to authoring books to serve the church maybe comment a little bit just how you see your own ministry by way of translation and distribution of books have served the global church well preaching is a spiritual event that's how i look at it um i don't ask people on monday what i said on sunday because it could be pretty discouraging not many people remember details they might remember a story you told they might remember a particularly gripping statement that you made but preaching is an event that has a spiritual impact in in a in a condensed amount of time so in order to make a real movement take place i think there has to be more than preaching all right i think there has to be writing and i think people have got to have in front of them words that aren't flying by uh first of all they're they're words that are frozen on a page and that lends itself to their thoughtful consideration of those words so as soon as i began to preach here at grace church back in 1969 people began to ask me we want you to write some books and so we started off writing a few books keys to spiritual growth and a few other things and then i was challenged with the opportunity to do a commentary series and i jumped at that because if we're going to provide material for other expositors and bible teachers and even just christian people to really come to grips with the scripture and the word of god they have to be able to read books are are critical so i it wasn't that i had a big desire to write books but i had a big desire to communicate truth in that format yeah excellent well speaking of your commentaries we have some examples of your books here that have been translated this is uh the galatians commentary in armenia uh which is just new and off the press and a number of other books have to read it to make sure they did it right all right okay what's that do that um and i know that you didn't anticipate you know the the distribution of your books and foreign languages around the world but today we see them in many languages 40 50 languages and how that serves the church of course in the way you described well it's a real providence of god that when i started in ministry at grace church back in 1969 i don't know really why except the leading of the lord i decided that i wasn't going to do anything but explain the bible i hadn't really seen that it was not there were a few guys that were exposing at that time but they tended to take big chunks and chapters and give you an overview and since every word of god was pure we came up with that little slogan that we use unleashing god's truth one verse at a time i wanted to go into the word of god particularly the new testament and explain every word and every phrase and every verse and at the time i thought you know i don't want to time stamp this by too much current news too much of what's going on in the world too many worldly illustrations what i would rather do and i can remember my my thinking through this i would rather use the bible to illustrate the bible because now you have an illustration you also have an illustration with authority because it's the scripture so that's why you could listen to a message now preached in 1975 and in this country it would be pertinent because it's not time stamped by some current event it's not built off of that it's it's the living and abiding word of god you could also translate it into multiple languages as we have done and in any language in any culture anywhere on the planet it's still the word of god being explained so as i look back on that i don't think at the age i was in my late 20s that that was some genius idea of mine i just think the lord shoved me into that direction because he knew what was coming and i used to say my job is to explain the scripture the lord's job is to take it wherever he wants it to go and i i haven't really been the instrument that has spread it it's been all the people that god has brought around like you and especially you that have facilitated the spread of all of this through tmai and through training men at the seminary and and doing all the the translation work you're doing and of course grace to you now sends out messages in multiple languages the latest one is russian right right so i'm just so indebted to uh i think about this a lot i stand in the pulpit of grace church and all this stuff happens and it's all done by other people and it is pretty amazing yeah i think that the the preaching part the global preaching impact is the first sort of the entry into understanding the word of god and people move from that to books because they want to go deeper and they want to go into the theology of things and uh and that's where you get the richness that allows you to be an effective teacher and pastor one of the other things that was true of the reformation was the importance of getting the word of god in the local language of the people so bible translation and we've had conversations you can train men to preach but if people don't have an accurate translation of the scriptures it still limits their ability to be students of god's word so tell us a little bit about the recent project of the legacy standard bible and why it's significant to you it's it's always necessary to have an accurate text right i mean if it is if it is the the word of god and it is and every word is inspired by god in the original autographs we've got to get as close to the original autographs as we can the trend in translation and this isn't just true in english this is true in other languages the trend in translation the modern trend is a reader consciousness so you're looking at greek and hebrew hebrew in the old testament greek and the new testament and the translator is asking the question what what would make this easy for the reader to understand that is what leads you away consistently maybe slowly and gradually away from the original text we're not interested in asking what the reader wants we want to know what the author meant so what we've done in the translation of the legacy standard bible is hit the breaks on the drift of english translations and say whoa we're going back the other direction we're going back to what we talk about a lot authorial intent what did the author intend this to say so you have to go back to hermeneutics you have to go back to the actual science of interpret interpretation recreate the context linguistic context theological context social context historical geography geography as well whatever you need to get the meaning of that text when it was written to the people to whom it was written because whatever it meant to them it still means to us you hear people say we need to get the bible into modern times no we need to get modern people into bible times they need to go back and they need to live in the bible so that they can really experience the reality of the revelation so because all of the english translations keep drifting toward the reader and i saw this happening so i basically went to the lochman foundation people who have the nas and i said you guys are coming out with another translation and it's going toward the reader and you're making changes that accommodate the reader would you allow us to go the other way go back to the author and do something that will be as close to the original as we can make it so that we talk about it this way an accurate translation is a window on the original and it's not a stained glass window it's it's it's not opaque it's crystal clear so what a good english translation does is let you look at the original and that's what the legacy standard bible has done for an expositor the the single tool that the expositor has is the scripture and the job of explaining to the reader is not the translator's job it's the preacher's job then when the translator takes on the job of interpreting to the reader he has abandoned the real role of translation the church by god's design has preachers and teachers to explain the meaning of the original so it's that simple reality that drove us toward the legacy standard bible and these guys the linguists from the masters university in seminary have done something i've never heard of they've done an entire bible translation in one year it's it's stunning i i i it's incalculable how many hours they've spent how many back notes stacks and stacks of back notes on every verse of the bible um and it i haven't seen all of it but it's going to be finished in another week or so but what i've seen and what i've read is just absolutely the best of the best of the best so i'm really thrilled you have to fight somebody i guess in a way had to say halt you know when when rc was still with us he used to call me boris because he nicknamed me after boris yeltsin who stood on a tank and said stop yes and i guess i got up on the tank the translation tank and said stop we're going the wrong direction we got to go back good to the original so that's what drove that well and then this translation is into english right and clarifying it but those study notes those interpreters notes that you talked about are essential as a resource as you know with the tyndale center at the seminary and our partnership with tmai we're looking at how do we train national translators across that's such an important point mark and i don't know that i'd actually thought of that but the back notes to that would be good for any group translating into any language i mean you'd have to have an english reader there to to translate the notes but the back notes to every verse are stunning what the the work those guys did that would be a treasure to anybody taking on the translation of the bible into any language well we're anxious to put good juice good because you're dealing you know with the original languages you're dealing with the exegetical you know accuracy and the carefulness and the attention that was well you know we we learned this in seminary that there were some rabbis who would copy the scripture and they'd take out their pen and write one letter and go take a bath yeah and write another letter and then go take a bath and then write another letter because they were dealing with something they didn't want to mess with and didn't want to get it wrong then they felt like they had to go sanctify themselves between letters so there was fastidious care and that's why we have the manuscripts that we have that are so accurate and then it gets into the english language and people start playing fast and loose with those original letters and original words to accommodate the changing culture of changing style changing language and we want to go back to the original and it's it's beautifully it's beautifully done so that it reads just so wonderfully you can do it right yeah well that trend you talked about in bible translation has been going on for years in foreign languages and people aren't aware of the drift but we have an opportunity to speak into that and begin by editing some of the very texts you know if you if you look at our students who are sitting in a greek class and the work their teachers are doing with them they're correcting their national translation and their misunderstanding now we've talked about the difficulty they have when they come across a really bad translation and they have to try to get the people they're teaching to understand that the bible is wrong yeah at that point and it's not the bible that was wrong it's the translation that was some kind of accommodation that there was a lot of that accommodation going on there were there were cultures that didn't have a lamb and they had a pig so you know behold the pig of god and then you've got when once the people in the tribe find out what a lamb is the bible is wrong so yeah care with the text and leave the rest to the teachers and the preachers to to interpret it well and what it really undermines is the authority of scripture in the life of the believer if they can't trust the scriptures right they can't have confidence uh you know what they're being taught the opposite is true you have an accurate translation and it cuts through the confusion the heresy the error the false interpretation so it's really an essential area for us to focus on we're excited about the legacy standard bible good we we think that when people see it they won't recognize all the amazing nuances that are sort of under the surface at first they won't see that but as they begin to read it they'll start to make connections they never made before because one of the things we wanted to achieve was consistency consistency of the trend the same word translated basically consistently so that you can connect the dots of the same word or the same idea as it goes through the text great yeah great well just kind of changing gears a little bit i've heard you say recently if you had another lifetime of ministry granted to you you would be a missionary tell us why you would want to be a missionary and then tell us how that heart has influenced your pastoral ministry well i think first of all um there's a sense in which america and you know i guess even the english-speaking world the western english-speaking world has had a proliferation and a massive abundance of pastors and preachers and teachers and endless endless endless books you know on the word of god whereas there are many many cultures that haven't had that i mean i get it i had a taste of that traveling the world uh i was in places in the world where people would say well we would like to be able to teach the bible but we don't have any books to help us interpret it so i also had a lot of heartache in europe and you know western europe and eastern europe eastern europe had been cut off from theological education so there were so many pastors in the former soviet union for example that didn't have the tools to interpret scripture and then in western europe the the liberal church had literally killed true christianity all across europe and it used to disturb me to know in that germany in particular which was the many cases the seed of the reformation with martin luther was so far from the gospel i actually went i actually took courses in german thinking the lord might send me there he never did and my my german has since vanished but it was always on my heart because i i mean it's just a great commission so when i came to grace church it was a passion for me to make sure that these people had a global perspective that was the mandate for the church take the message the truth of the word of god the whole council of god and do everything you can to spread it across the planet as far as you can and i honestly was not particularly satisfied with the missions at the time the church grace church sponsored some you know very kind nice missionaries who were not making a great impact and i knew that the real impact was what had to be training leaders i mean jesus took 12 guys and turned the world upside down so the model is pretty simple and the apostle paul alone with some of his companions some of whom were more trouble than they were worth you know it basically planted the church all across you know the european continent so i knew it didn't take a lot but it took people who were highly gifted and devoted and trained so from the very outset when i met with the elders the first time here i said look i want to do two things one i want to preach the word on two i want to train men because we've got to build up strong spiritual leaders to strengthen the church around the world and i just prayed that the lord would do with that what he would and expand it and expand it and expand it and of course when the lord called me to be the president of the masters university where i first met you because you were a student there you had come out of a missionary family and you had a heart for missions bob provost who was my partner in starting it was passionate about missions in fact i stopped him from going to china as a missionary and made him stay at the messers university so we started out with a complete passion to train our students in missions and from the earliest years we sent them out on summer mission teams and we exposed them to missions and you know missions is not something in addition to the church it is the church doing its work yes it is the church so there was no possible way to to avoid it but we just needed to do it differently because sending nice people over to some foreign country to figure out some way to reach people one by one was not the way to do it the way to do it was train the pastors that are already there right and not impose that on them not go in and say we're bringing our deal here to you but to have the kind of ministry that they would ask for and that's the way it began to happen i would do a conference and they would say could you come back and preach we haven't heard that kind of preaching sure could you bring somebody sure could we have a uh could maybe you start a school here and so forth then you know how that's how it all grew yeah so training leaders is what is critical to spreading the truth around the globe and that's what tmai has become well i know that commitment to missions i appreciate what you just said it's very important maybe important enough to repeat it's the mission of the church it is the church's mission there it isn't in addition to the church's mission it is the church's mission and i think a lot of missions activity today is unanchored from the church yeah a lot of busyness and evangelism but they don't bring people into the context of the church to do what be discipled taught what christ has instructed us you know i was reading yesterday a singer died a christian singer died okay and the article said his greatest achievement was bringing millions of people to christ really a singer i don't i don't know what he actually did i know maybe maybe he did bring people to christ but his greatest achievement was bringing millions of people to christ that's not a human achievement i can't bring one person to christ that's right that's the work of god that's right but there's so much of that you see a picture of a massive arena or stadium filled with all kinds of people and supposedly somebody asked them to be saved and they all stick their hand in the air and you don't even know what any of that means you don't know what is driving any of that emotional reaction the only way you know that the work of god is being done the way god ordained it to be done is when the church becomes strong and when everything is tied to the to the church and the faithful sound pastors in that in that country in that area well one of the things that i have a chance to observe and i'm grateful for is just it's not just your passion it's your wife's passion and you patricia both see it not just as the mission of the church but you see it as a personal relational stewardship on your part and i would venture to say you see all of our missionaries gives all my retirement money to for which we're great i can't retire for which we're grateful but i know you see our missionaries and their families you see them as your spiritual sons and daughters and uh we raised them yeah yeah i mean we aren't alone in that they came from churches to the seminary and but but they they became if not our born children they became our adopted sons and daughters didn't they and and our church embraced them and loved them and supported them and cared for them and provided what they needed while they were here at the master seminary and you know people used to say to me you know you're going to impact the church's budget if you let people give money to missionaries and i said you know that's ridiculous i want people to do what's in their heart to do you can take any missionary that's a faithful missionary you can send him through this church to talk to anybody he can raise as much money as he wants and i couldn't be happier that's not how the kingdom works you know when you're generous and when everybody is invested and involved all the giving goes up and we've seen that absolutely we've seen that you can't try to force people into small little areas of giving that only come to what you authorize and then expect them to get a heart for missions right that that doesn't work because that's talking out of both sides of your mouth so grace church has been liberal in in astonishing ways with missions because we've always cultivated that well and it's modeled by you plus you have so many guys graduating from seminary going into the mission field we got to get the money from the the people to keep them going we some we have some in the pipeline right now don't we absolutely absolutely well um i want to ask you this question uh you chose as the theme for this year's shepherd's conference i know it's being postponed but the theme reclaiming evangelicalism give us your insights why you chose that at this time as the theme for shepherd's conference well you know i keep reading in the media about evangelicals and they're nothing like i see an evangelical yeah an evangelical that's a word that means to preach the gospel but it's come to mean i don't know what nothing really and everything uh so this all started when i used to talk to rc sprole about look eventually the culture has the the sort of compromising church culture has a way of stealing our words stealing our terms and they i think they've stolen evangelical it doesn't mean anything anymore it's not defined as as we would define it biblically so we used to talk about we need to come up with a new word we got to come up with a new word and we never could think of a new word that would work so of course he's with the lord now recently i said to the guys i said you know i think we've lost the word evangelical these are the men here at grace and seminary i said can we come up with a new word and they said look why don't we try to rescue that one first and that's what led to the emphasis and okay i said i'm game it's a good word it's a biblical word let's see if we can't rescue it by taking it back to its original definition so that was the thought in recovering evangelicalism because it's become so broad it's such a big tent now that it encompasses absolutely any anything and anyone but you know that's one of the devil's strategies to take terms that should be narrowly defined and define them broadly that's part of the seduction of the broad road is that the language sounds the same but it's not yeah well i remember and you'll remember the years where the popular phrase born again everybody said they're born again including the president and uh it really lost its significance and meaning right and then charles colson wrote a book called born again and there was testimony in it by mother teresa yeah yeah who didn't i remember when i met her she she did she didn't know as much about christianity as a sunday school kid at grace community church i mean she didn't know the real gospel so yeah so those broad definitions um we've spent you're you're part of it too but we've spent all our years trying to tighten all the loose bolts in terminology i mean when we talk about justification what exactly do we mean when we talk about imputation what do we mean when we talk about we talk about reconciliation what do we mean when we in any any biblical term what exactly do we mean biblically tightening everything down and for that i we have been accused of being narrow-minded and sort of proud about where we stand and nobody nobody's where we are and that's never our intention we want to be humble with the truth of course but we we are absolutely devoted to the truth that's what drives everything well uh you might even argue that every gender generation has to be willing to to return to the essentials and to define them and stand on the nature of life in the world is everything drifts yeah everything drifts and in every generation there there has to be some someone some group that hold on you know what did paul say to timothy it couldn't have been clear he said guard what has been entrusted to you because he said everybody in asia has forsaken me this is in paul's lifetime and everybody was forsaking him and he didn't mean that just personally he meant personally and from the standpoint of of his teaching timothy please guard what has been entrusted to you hold fast to sound doctrine and in every generation some some people have to do that in order to pass it on to the next generation well i'm mindful of the turn of the last century and the encroachment of liberalism and skepticism and the threat to inerrancy and you know r a tory author of the fundamentals and and that led to a group galvanizing and others saying we have got to define who we are based on the ascension that we agree on here and you're championing that same endeavor today so thank you for well and i don't see it as some kind of organizational need i just love the truth every day that i wake up i want to teach the truth understand it better defend it fight for it rally some guys to be faithful to the truth the truth is all we have it the truth's the most important thing in the universe it's the only thing it saves and sanctifies and edifies and it's everything so you know this because we talk about it all the time we're not interested in any kind of methodology thinking we can build the kingdom by methods that's right it's the truth amen so yeah we i mean we're we're pretty single-minded on that i want to get your thoughts on some present realities uh and first of all let me just say this we recognize that throughout church history uh across the globe there's always been places where the church has faced direct persecution and hostility you know as our western society becomes more and more intolerant of biblical morals and ethics how can we prepare ourselves as a western church to stand strong yeah i think we've we've had it pretty well there are christians that are dying all over the world that are being killed i read this morning about another 10 christians were killed in some asian country but but america has been sheltered by a kind of cultural christianity for most of its 200 plus years of life but we're we're now pagan nation we're dominated by by paganism uh totally and jesus put it very simply he said they hate me because i tell them their deeds are evil okay they don't hate us because we tell them god loves them they don't hate us because we tell them jesus died for them they don't hate us because we tell them god would god desires them to come to heaven they hate us because we tell them their deeds are evil jesus said of course to his disciples in the upper room if they hated me they're going to hate you you have to be pretty attached to your sin to hate jesus never a more loving compassionate wise thoughtful person walked this planet than jesus and collectively they killed him they didn't kill him because of the good things he did they killed him because he told them their deeds are evil and what has happened in the evangelical church is that is such a hostile message that quote-unquote evangelicalism has stripped it out and doesn't want to talk about that and so you have the kind of smarmy smiling people you know the ted talk type guys who want the the unconverted people to think that jesus loves him and he's just lonely until they come to him so the challenge for the church has always been to confront sin but it's never been greater than it is now because now sin is sin has become legalized yes and righteousness is criminal they're making laws against righteousness this is how flipped this culture is they just arrested one of our graduates up in canada this week for preaching in his church on sunday that's a pretty appal i mean in in handcuffs and hauled him to a cell james um we're going to see that we're absolutely going to absolutely going to see that down the road and covet is a good excuse for doing that because covet is a trumped-up false narrative not even relate not even connected to reality so i i think now when you have laws that say if you say something against a homosexual or something against a transgender person that's hate speech and if you use hate speech you're in violation of the law it's going to come around that those kinds of things are going to be against the law to the degree that there's going to be punishment laid down on christian people for doing that somebody said to me you know we're losing religious freedom i said no no we're not we're losing we're not at all losing religious freedom all false religions are free to operate all of them they're they can operate fully because they're all a part of the same system what is being taken away is the freedom of the truth to speak and that is what the culture the culture the darkness fears the light the the liar the lies fear the truth uh i was saying in one of my sermons recently it fascinated me there was a person who interviewed a general in the taiwanese military and asked him what their relationship to china was because china is trying to take over taiwan and how do you how do you know how do you understand what china is doing and he gave amazing answer he said we have an entire department that does nothing but scan all the social media that the chinese censor all right and we assemble that and that's the truth so that that is the upside down world that we are in whatever they try to keep you from knowing is the truth that's how the lie perpetuates itself so we become the people of the truth we become a problem in a world that has legalized lying and sin so there's going to be hostility there there's you know i don't know that it'll always be the same in terms of its punishment as has been in some more primitive places in the world where you actually die for the gospel but it's it's going to come because the culture is set up for it now and christian people are going to have to realize the persecution comes because you tell people their their deeds are evil but you say that to them so they can understand how desperately they need the good news yes we have to start we have to start where the story starts and you know that i was saying this sunday ago that is the one message they can they can comprehend you know where paul says when you when you manifest the truth you commend yourself to all men what does that mean to their conscience so when you go to a sinner and you say jesus loves you and once you go to heaven and and he he's died for you i don't get it that doesn't register but when you say to that person you are a sinner your heart is full of sin and your conscience tells you you're sinful the sinner connects he knows that's why they're hostile absolutely they get it because their own heart that's the only ally you have in the hermit in the human heart the only ally you have is the law written in the heart and the conscience that god placed there so that's how you attack and when the sinner gets disturbed enough about his sin then the gospel begins to to mean something significant yeah that's absolutely right you got to preach the law to understand grace yeah but you've got to create the fear and the anxiety about sin and judgment yeah excellent thank you for that assessment well we know the lord has his purposes and we know he's going to strengthen those who look to him and anchor their life on the truth that's brings us right back to our focus it's essential yeah to guide us and to guide our path going forward i think these are the best of times the clarity is amazing yeah i mean the dark is the dark and the light is the light and there's not a lot in the middle that's a good thing amen well let me ask you one last question you just celebrate 15 52 years of ministry in the pulpit at grace church uh for which we love you and we're grateful for your faithfulness but what general counsel encouragement would you give to younger men in the ministry to persevere and be faithful in their calling i don't want to you know standardize my own experience and normalize it but i will say this the longer you're in one place the richer the broader the more impactful your ministry becomes the tendency with pastors you know through most of my life was a few years here in a few years there and you go here and you go there and you go there when you plant in one place and you invest generationally it's astonishing the depth the unity the commitment the devotion the love the goal of our instruction paul said is love from a pure heart and years and years of pouring out the word of god into well now um three four generations of people builds a church where not only sound doctrine is trusted and believed but where love dominates i think that's what people are surprised at they think you know macarthur teaches the bible and he's theologically narrow and all of this so that's probably a that's probably a kind of a hard place those people are doctrinally um stiff and what they find when they come here is not that at all they find love because the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart so and from a pastor's standpoint i i don't know how anyone could imagine a life better than what god has graciously graciously done to me leave me here long enough to live in the midst of all those loving relationships i wouldn't trade that for anything i i'm so thankful that i didn't the lord didn't let me bounce around um because this is long-term stuff i mean you know you're planning training centers all over the planet that's not a short-term operation you got to raise these young men and their wives in the faith then you got to train them in the seminary then you've got to prepare them to go to the field and then you've got to connect them with the people there and but the long-term strategy is the right one and you you know you have to keep investing in the same people you can't you can't run off somewhere else and pick up a new batch and in six weeks prepare them for anything significant that's right yeah absolutely well thank you for joining us today it's been great talking to you appreciate your heart and your support for the work around the globe and in many ways that missionary heart that you possess has only been extended through people and certainly your books now translated in all kinds of languages so our commitment is to be a good steward of all that you've entrusted to us to serve the church well as just remind myself as i was reading today paul says we preach not ourselves accept ourselves as your slaves for jesus sake amen amen thank you john sure thank you mark you

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Published: Fri May 21 2021