THROWBACK: Michael Davies Legendary Pro-SSPX, Marcel Lefebvre speech

uh Reverend father ladies and gentlemen first of all I'd like to compliment Dr Jones I think he put the case for the society being in prison very coherently he brought up all the arguments that there are for this and I think it'll be very valuable when people get the tapes they can hear the full case against the society and now I can put the other side I just like to ask Dr Jones two questions if I could to save me wasting time refuting something which he probably doesn't allege first of all Dr Jones you wouldn't claim that the society was in citizen before the consecrations were due I stayed where I what I thought was the case in the car well you do you didn't make that point but I'm presuming you oh you kind of we'll settle out later and the other thing I like to make clear you to make clear if you would do you think that anyone who goes to uh mass of the society was supposed to Tenth automatically puts themselves in a state of schism uh so you do think that I think it's a legitimate interpretation it's your interpretation that's all I want to know you could just say yes or no and say in a lot of trouble if I go yes yes uh or Mr Case says yes right so the first little comment I like to make on what the job what Dr Jones was saying was uh he I don't think he indicated once anywhere in his presentation unless I'm still slightly jet lagged and my mind drifted off that we're living in abnormal times Pope Paul VI uh within a couple years of the council finishing stated that the church is in a process of self-destruction the whole of the presentation we just heard seemed to assume we're living in the time of Pius the tenth the Pius the 12th in a time of normality in the church I'd agree with every word that Dr Jones said but we're not living in a normal time which I'll get around to a little later but I'd like to I'd just like to start with a few basic principles remember the first thing you learned in the catechism the question was why did God make me now God made me to know him love him and serve him in this world in order that I can be happy with him forever in the next how does one serve God because it's pointless to say that when loves God if one doesn't serve him one serves godson Thomas Aquinas says by practicing virtue in order to practice virtue we need Grace we need sanctifying Grace God could have imparted this Grace directly to us on an individual basis which is what Protestants believe but he decided that he would impart this grace to us by our incorporation into the mystical Body of Christ the Catholic Church now the mystical Body of Christ in its innermost reality is really an extension of the Incarnation the Catholic church is Jesus Christ present in the world today present throughout the nations in the centuries teaching us and sanctifying us as he did when he was on Earth the church has also been compared to a house the house of the Living God Thomas Dave ventis and that house is built upon a rock the rock of Peter if we are to be Catholics we must be in communion with the Pope doesn't matter what we think of the Pope we're still bound to be in communion with him as long as he is the Pope now the Pope Pope is not Christ he's infallible when he teaches us any solemn Doctrine on faith and morals but he is an inerrant that doesn't mean he can never make a mistake an error of judgment he's not impeccable it doesn't mean he can never sing you remember perhaps in the gospel of Saint Matthew at the Last Supper when our lord said one of you at this table here will betray me Peter got up very melodramatically he wasn't rather than melodramatic person and so though all the others may be true I never will it says so said all the other Apostles or disciples few verses later we hear we read the words it says and forsaking him they all fled now I've heard that described as the first collegial decision of the Pope and Union with the Bishops of the world foreign a little later we hear the Pope denying three times that he knew our Lord had anything to do with him you remember the occasion in Galatians where nurse and Paul stood up to the pope and rebuked him to his face uh I've been reading my Aquinas too and Thomas writing little commentary on Galatians chapter 2 verse 11 says this Paul who was Peter's subject rebuked him in public on account of the imminent danger of Scandal concerning the faith and as the gloss of Saint Augustine says on Galatians 2 11 Peter gave an example to superiors that if any time they should happen to stray from the straight path they should not disdain to be rebuked by their subjects I could give you several examples of this in the history of the church but I won't now as I know Dr mersby's Stern on running over time we're a b uh Thomas Aquinas gives us these principles as a rule of thumb if our Superior commands us to do something that is wrong or immoral we have a duty to obey sorry we have a duty to disobey it because I must still be jet lagged so where any Superior that would include the pope orders us to do something that is wrong we have a duty to obey that disobeys I am foreign Third Time Lucky if any Superior orders is to do something that is wrong we have a duty to disobey you see I'm such I consider myself to be such a loyal Catholic and so obedient to the pope it found me hard to get those words out now what if a superior orders us to do something that we consider unjust really I would agree with Dr Jones here it mustn't be what we consider subjectively it would have to be a command was unjust if a superior makes an unjust command we have a right to disobey we're not obliged to disobey we could submit to it humbly now every ruler including the pope is bound to rule his subjects justly because the pope as Dr Jones said correctly he has absolute Authority but he does not have arbitrary Authority during the debate which took place during the second Vatican Council prior to the promulgation of the dogma of people infallibility some objections were brought up they said this is giving the pope arbitrary power he he can rule the church like a dictator this goes through and a man called that they they have at all cancers they have a person called the relato he gives the official explanations of what the documents mean and he said no the pope isn't being given arbitrary power and the main restriction upon his power is that he must use his power to build up the mystical Body of Christ did I say Vatican II oh you have to excuse me for for this right uh yes this was during the promulgation of the dogma of infallibility during the first Vatican Council and as I said the relato said the pope has given his authority only to build up the mystical body he can do nothing that will undermine it and so the pope is bound to ensure that all his teaching and his legislation builds up the mystical body and also that he rules his subjects justly now among the rights of the faithful that the pope is bound to respect according to the 1983 code of canon law uh we have we have a right to make known our spiritual needs to the pastors of the church we have a right and even the duty to manifest our opinions on matters that pertain to the good of the church we have the right to receive help from the sacred pastors out of the spiritual Goods of the church especially the word of God and the sacraments we have the right to worship according to the prescriptions of our own right we have the right for a Catholic Education and this might be a little point for Mr Joe for Dr Jones and Mr Case uh we have a right not to have our reputation damaged our privacy violated [Applause] now Pope as I said is absolutely Bound To Rule justly and I would say that above all the liturgical reform that follow the second Vatican Council was unjust it deprived us of the great our greatest spiritual heritage a few weeks ago I was on the pilgrimage to chartreuse which was very encouraging for all traditionists there are about 15 000 people marched from Paris to chartre uh the average age was 20 and we had beautiful solemn high mass in the cathedral run a message from the pope saying that he was praying for our intentions the main one of which was the restoration of the tridentine mass foreign Dr James Hitchcock who I don't know if Dr Jones would consider him to be a liberal but at church today clicks are denied the right to exist so after the council people made their spiritual needs known to the sacred pastors we asked them above all that they would allow us to have recourse to the traditional mass of the Roman right that goes back in all Ascent shows to the pontificate of Pope Gregory the Great at the end of the sixth century we asked them for bread and they gave us stones I could cope John Milton you remember the hungry sheep looked up and were not fed now today at Mass well the mass I went to anyway I was very struck by the gospel it was the Gospel of the Good Samaritan and I felt that that gospel has a lot to say to traditional Catholics we were rather like the Good Samaritan and after the council in a way we were spiritually mugged we were we were stripped we were stripped of our inheritance of our spiritual aesthetic surgical even from if your child goes to a Catholic school you're stripped of your trial inheritance because if you can find a Catholic School Where Your Children taught authentic Catholic Doctrine you'd be very lucky indeed and we were like the poor man robbed in the story of a Good Samaritan lying beside the road we could say the pope came along we turned to him for help he didn't quite walk on the other side he threw us what I'd call a Band-Aid to which I refer to the 1984 indult in which he said if any Bishop feels so graciously inclined uh he can allow these people to have a tridentone mass with all sorts of restrictions that made it virtually impossible and I'd say with that exaggerating between 99 or more of the Bishops in the world ignored the 1984 in adult no tridental masses were given our Bishops we went to our Bishops we asked them especially especially during the offer of the 1984 in dull and we were finding that practically every Bishop was a wolf in sheep's clothing although it mentioned very in a recent article you probably saw that the plight of the papers priest II in the homological Pastoral review they said many Bishops now wolves and Walls clothing hey they certainly passed us by and I'm speaking now I know for thousands tens of thousands of good honest faithful Catholics of Paul Johnson who is not a traditional catholic some of you read his books wrote in an English newspaper the daily mail at the time of the excommunications he said actually the type of Catholic who supports Archbishop of favor they're either salt of the earth the people who kept the church going all these years the people to whom the faith matters but thousands of us we got to a state where we began to despair we thought there was no hope and then and I hope this doesn't sound too emotional because we British aren't supposed to be emotional but then Along came a man sent by God and his name was Marcel thank you I thought of that this morning as well when they were reading the last gospel fuit Marcellus he didn't walk by on the other side he treated our wounds our spiritual wounds and gave us the spiritual food for which we had hungered for so long above all he gave us the immemorial tried end time Mass which the second Vatican Council had ordered should be preserved and fostered in every way all existing rights the council said must be preserved and fostered in every way and what happened the tridential mass was destroyed huh artificial Affair has been compared rightly to Saint athanasius he is the athanasius of our times lights and athanasius and like saint eusebius of samasota he went into the Diocese of Bishops who are not acting as good Shepherds to give the people the instruction the sacramental grace and the pastors that they needed the ordained they ordained in the Diocese of other Bishops this would be considered outrageous asmatic and he gave a message and athanasius gave this message and apart from the word Ariels it could be the message that Archbishop levera gave us our churches are taken from us and given to the Aryans they have our places but we have the faith they cannot Rob us of that thank you now in my country during the Protestant Reformation the Catholics had a little phrase they've used when they met each other they say Keep the Faith which is very appropriate at this four of them and the reason I would say hundreds of thousands of Catholics have kept the faith today is entirely due to Archbishop the favor he hasn't taken people out of the church he's kept hundreds of thousands of Catholics in the church who have lost their faith or gone into City vacantism if it hadn't been for him now what syndothanasius did what since eusebius did and what Archbishop the fairy did going into the Diocese of other Bishops is a very very serious matter and it can only be justified by a state of necessity uh Dr Jones has always told you already told you my interest in states of necessity let's try and give you a little explanation of what a state of necessity is that can occur in the church a state of emergency urgency or necessity when it's continuation order or activity are threatened or harmed and in an important way and the emergency cannot be overcome by observing the normal positive laws the emergency would relate principally to teaching the Liturgy and ecclesiastical discipline in such a situation of necessity the passes of the church may take Extraordinary Measures to ensure that the faith continues that was why athanasius went into the Diocese of other Bishops went into the Diocese of other Bishops the great point does a state of emergency exist well I can't go in I maintain that it does but I won't go into it in too great detail at the moment I'll try to do so later on now on to the subject of schism Catholic who breaks the strict letter of canon law in order to uphold the faith cannot be accused of schism code of kind of law states that not me whenever you hear anyone like Dr Jones start saying are someone's legalistic that means they know that person's quoting the law correctly and they're in the right and they want to try and undermine their argument before they begin now uh whatever I don't profess to have any great scholarship in my writings what what if I have got a merit it's it's probably comes from teaching Primary School true and that's 11 year olds for the past 30 years is that I do is in school if I have any topic to present I go into it from all different points of view then I try and synthesize it and get it down to a very simple explanation and I want to assure you the explanation of schism I'm going to give you now it comes from the writing of Aquinas a cardinal casualtan other theologians this is the true meaning of schism within the context of Catholic theology and five one says as Dr Jones quit it quite correctly Schism is the obstinate post-baptismal refusal of submission to the Roman pontiff and of communion with the members of the church subject to him uh Eve congar Who's no friend of Archbishop Le favor he wrote the article in Schism in the dictionary detail catalik which I think is the greatest work of reference ever published and he explained system and Disobedience are often confused every Schism involves Disobedience but not every Act of disobedience is systematic and I'm going to base myself on the authorities I just quoted another one I'd like to mention is standard textbook for those studying Kelly Law is it a common term the code of current law by two American and Ellis it was standard I think in all the seminaries up to the council no the activism they say is found primarily in the intention of the accused person the guilt of schism properly so-called is incurred only when a baptized Catholic intends willfully and intentionally to sever himself from the unity of the church by rejecting the existence of the papal office Itself by denying that the pope has a right to command and by refusing communion with those Catholics subject to him that is by refusing to recognize them as fellow Catholics the refusal even the proteinaceous refusal to obey the Pope in a particular instance does not constitute schism would Dr Jones make here to argue that that that's not me right speaking that I said is I've done some extensive research on it and that is the consensus of approved Catholic authors on the matter that one has to intend to sever oneself from the unity of the church Now by no possible stretch of the imagination could anyone say that Archbishop of favor intended to sever himself from the unity of the church if foreign Bishops years before he didn't have got into these protracted negotiations with the Holy See now I'm going to get legalistic now as I've apologized for that to those who don't like when to get legalistic uh copy of the admonition that was sent to the Archbishop of fear with a canonical warning warning him that if he consecrated the Bishops he would be excommunicated I've got the Latin text here as well if anyone wants to see it later and it says since on June the 15th 1988 you stated that you intended to ordain four priests to the episcopate without having obtained the Mandate of the Supreme pontiff as required by cutting one zero one three of the code of Canada law I myself convey to you this public canonical warning confirming that if you should carry out your intention as stated above you yourself and also the Bishops ordained by you shall incur ipso Factor its communication latest sentences reserved the apostolic see in accordance with Canon 1382 now I find it quite astonishing if this was going to be a systematic act that no mention of schism is made anywhere in this canonical warning there's no mention of schism at all why is there no mention of scissor made because if there had been the Archbishop could have replied straight away that in the code of cutting law there is a section entitled penalties for specific offenses this includes a section which is called offenses against the unity of the church this begins with Canon 1364 which deals with apostasy Schism and heresy the cannon with which Archbishop lafair was threatened as I've just mentioned he was cut in one three eight two that comes in a totally different section of the code of canon law entitled user patient of an ecclesiastical function and I want to stress again that was the only Canon mentioned now one could say very well let's agree for the moment that artificial Affair was not in schism through consecrating Bishops which I think is quite obvious but leave that aside he's excommunicated anyway because this offense carries the automatic penalty of excommunication but any laws in the code of current law which establish a penalty there subject to what is called a strict interpretation when any doubt exists they must be interpreted in the favor of the accused that is to say if there's any doubt about whether the penalty has been incurred it hasn't been incurred now artificial fairer said his reason for consecrating the Bishops was that a state of necessity in the sense that I gave to you just now existed I think objectively this can be shown to be the case the principal point of a state of necessity is the continuity of the church is in danger and if anyone thinks that continuity of the church in this country in my country in Canada in Holland and France isn't in danger they've been living in blinkers since the second Vatican Council thank you so Canon one three two three says that if one violates a law in the code because a state of necessity or emergency exists that person does not incur a penalty so if the state the church is in a state of crisis if there is a state of an emergency then Archbishop Affair wasn't even excommunicated the penalty is invalid but let's argue again let's say there wasn't a state of emergency let's say everything's marvelous let's say Mass attendance is going up every week instead of going down let's say the religious awards are holier than they've ever been let's say that the children of Catholic schools are learning more and sound a Catholic Doctrine than they ever did before there's no state of emergency Canon 1323 paragraph seven of the Canon I've just quoted you says a penalty is not incurred if the person accused believes that a state of necessity exists now I don't think there can be any argument at all that Archbishop levera believed that a state of emergency existed he said he did and nobody has got any right to say that he was lying we haven't got the right to say it about anyone if he said he believed it existed then we have to believe that he believed that in which case he would not have occurred incur the penalty now a very strange thing happened then when the decree of excommunication came they added a little extra to it and it wasn't just one three eight two they brought in one 364 schism now that's rather as if you'd robbed a bank which would be very naughty not supposed to rob banks and you're arrested arraigned brought into court and then when they read the charge out for you basically arrested for robbing a bank and first-degree murder the consecration of a bishop without a Papal mandate is not an intrinsically systematic offense it wasn't in the previous code it was only punished by suspension if it was intrinsically systematic it would always have been uh it would have been in the section of the code of canon law dealing with citizen that's obvious it wasn't so adding this even if done with the approval of the Pope cannot turn in a fence that isn't systematic into an offense that is systematic uh now Dr Jones says the pope is above canon law and he can do whatever he likes but I disagree with that completely I explained to you earlier the explanation given during the debate on infallibility in the first Vatican Council when the relator explained the Pope's power is an arbitrary that would be incredibly arbitrary if the pope can just change can a lord is women excommunicate people just because he feels like doing it and imagine if you'd elected son of the six was gonna have a little orgy uh and he didn't have enough girls to come around he said you send your daughter under my order I'll excommunicate you that would be seismatic see when you have the right to do that of course not it's actually ridiculous well I've asked three or four kind of noise and it seems Dr Jones doesn't think the match of cutting lawyers it's amazing uh Professor Capone is a professor of canon law in the University of Florence and he's an advocate the Holy Roman wrote her I was one of the most authoritative kind of laws in Europe but Dr Jones thinks he doesn't know what he's talking about uh one of three kind of lost they all gave me more or less the same reply this is it uh the pope cannot just condemn people on his whim the legislator can change the law but is bound by it until he changes it and the judge must judge according to the law now what the pope could do he could today he wouldn't even have to publish it he could get out on the bargains and Peters and say in future to consecrate a bishop without a mandate from the pope is a systematic offense the moment he said that it would be a systematic offense but the Pope promulgated the code of canon law he says that's the kind of law for the church and he can't suddenly start changing the rules at his whim without actually changing the law book itself and I think everyone here I hope everyone here we didn't uh agree that that's very reasonable now I did ask just now uh Dr Jones were prevaricated a bit whether if we assisted the chapel of this aside this Empire's the temporalismatic I was commend Mr Case for his forthright reply he said yes means that I'm systematic because I've been quite often three minutes three minutes right you shouldn't clap at someone being systematic all right we we can uh we're fortunate by the way oh before I get on to this I'd just like to give you a wonderful quote I've got a letter here dated me the 26th from Cardinal uh Lara who's the head of the commission for the correct interpretation of canon law as to whether consecrating a bishop without a Papal mandate constitute Schism and this is what he says uh the act of consecrating Bishops is not in itself a systematic act in fact in the code where fences are treated these two are treated in two distinct headings there are delicts against religion and the unity of the church's technical name for an offense and these are apostasis Schism and heresy consecrating a bishop without a pontifical mandate is on the other hand an offense against the proper exercise of one's Ministry for example you remember I was saying about intention Dr Jones's intention doesn't matter listen to what Cardinal Lara says but perhaps Dr Jones will say he doesn't know what he's talking about this is what he says for example there was an excommunication of the Vietnamese Bishop didn't in 76 and 83 for an Episcopal consecration but it was not considered a seismatic act because there was no intent to break with the church it it would be very pleasant if we could get an authoritative decision on this point because it's a very very serious matter and if I've gone into systems you're going to pass the 10th masses I want to pop off and confess it and get absorbed very quickly and hundreds of thousands of people are going to pass the 10th masses well we've all got to be very grateful to somebody for this we've got to be very grateful to the bishop of Honolulu a bishop ferrario it seems yes who's done us all a great service because he excommunicated a group of traditionists for having Pius the tenth priests to say mass for them and Bishop Williamson to confirm their children well which uh Mr case anyway says this is Matic I'm going to read you his words this is what Bishop ferrario said to these people it's very specific we've got to be grateful to him for it whereas on on May 1987 you performed a seismatic act not only by procuring the services of an excommunicated Le favor Bishop Richard Williamson who performed contraryure illicit confirmation in your Chapel but also listen to this bit but also by that very association with the aforementioned Bishop incurred ipso facto the grave Center of excommunication as forewarned by the office of the congregation of Bishops at the Vatican to all the faithful exactly right well thank you very much Mr Case Mr Case is exactly right and someone someone else thinks he wasn't because the people in question appealed they're appealed to the Holy See and when you appeal to a legal Court the legal court has to hold the law I've got this letter here dated June the 28th 1993 from the apostolic pronuncio in Hawaii who says this because they as I said they put in a proper canonical appeal upon the instruction of his Eminence Cardinal Joseph ratzinger prefect for the congregation of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith I performed the room that I've just received from him regarding the recourse submitted first by you and then by four other persons against the decree of the Declaration of schism given on May the 1st 1991 by his accent see the most Reverend Joseph a Ferrari openership of Honolulu now listen this is going to be quite wrong if Mr Case is quite right but still from the examination of the case conducted on the basis of the law of the church it did not result that the facts referred to in the above Nation decree are formal systematic acts in the strict sense as they do not constitute the effects of schism and therefore the congregation holds that the decree of May the 1st 1991 lacks foundation and hence uh validity so those people are not all right uh I've just got a very uh tough smack on the arm uh from uh Dr Mara so I'll just when he gave uh Dr Jones a smack on the arm too and he carried on so I just carried on literally for work [Applause] for just one more minute you can knock it off my 10 minutes oh yeah that's Equity right uh final thing I want to say I've already mentioned to you the case of saint athanasius Now history has an extraordinary habit of repeating itself and this situation has happened before it happened in the time in the fourth Century during the Aryan heresy under Pope liberius who was subjected to Great pressure but unfortunately proved to be weak he excommunicated synthesis he joined with all the Aryan Bishops in doing this he signed a formula very very dubious Orthodoxy and what happened he was the first pope not to be included in the Roman martyrology and Saint athanasius is a saint [Applause] for generations of Catholics are going to regard Archbishop of pharaoh as the saint and will because he preserved for us some of the most precious traditions of our fathers nobody now can get rid of the tridental mass if you'd been with me at Charter at Pentecost you'd say it couldn't I would mean to know the traditional movement the moon to the tridential mass we are the wave of the future we're going to be we're going to win out and as I said I'm sure future generations of Catholics they'll venerate these sacred Traditions as we venerate them as our fathers venerated them and they'll venerate Archbishop of favor for preserving them for us so I say God bless Archbishop Affair and thank God for him [Applause]

Channel: The Kennedy Report

Views: 12,809

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Id: JRVggSlUMkc

Length: 37min 44sec (2264 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 28 2022