Therapy & Theology: Addressing Codependency

forgiveness is a regular part of relationships but what do we do when our relationship has gotten to the place where we are recognizing pretty extreme unhealthy patterns maybe even to the point where we are enabling behavior in other people that goes beyond the work of forgiveness so i'm joined today for this session on therapy and theology with two of my great friends in ministry joel mutamale he's the director of theology at proverbs 31 ministries no stranger to this podcast and also no stranger is jim cress my personal counselor and the perfect voice to speak into today's topic something because i struggle with it so much well i was not going to place that on say if you spot it you got it so okay well i'm gonna let you own whatever you feel like you need to own in this but i'm certainly not placing that on you in all seriousness i think you know i've used the term what do we do when we enable others to continue and batter toxic behaviors it's no longer healthy for the relationship and i think because we've spent so much time talking about forgiveness i want to be super clear forgiveness is not giving people permission to treat us in any way that they want to treat us and i thought it would be important to talk about this term codependency but i do want to right off the bat say when i hear the term codependency i start to get very afraid of what you're going to say and um maybe because in it vertically or maybe because i didn't even recognize it i've put on display some codependent behaviors and it feels offensive for you to tell me you know that behavior is evidence of codependency when in reality maybe i just don't really understand what that term means i don't know joel have you ever felt that way even doing this this um this episode today i just thought whoa is the fact that i'm interested in codependency am i guilty evidence that i very much do that but but do you find jim that most relationships have maybe a healthy dependency and we don't want to confuse that healthy quality with something that is then deemed unhealthy in codependency right exactly and very well put if you have a belly button you have codependency it really is true it's just true it's universal it's global and quite frankly codependency has gotten far too bad of a wrap if you want to know my opinion on it because um there is a sense that and i have this little coin in my office i will spin in my hand one side of it is compassion starts with co and as i'm into compassion for another person often i might carry it too far and then i'm into codependency sometimes i might start out in codependency instead of someone judging me for that is no i really am compassionate and i really do care so you know codependency comes out of the in the 1980s around someone who was in a relationship with an addict or an alcoholic or it could even be in parenting enabling your kids over and over again co means with dependency they're dependent on some agent or some addiction and you're kind of dependent on them and there's a sense of that almost external identity like with codependency i'm okay if you're okay if you're okay that i'm okay are you okay if i'm okay are you okay back and forth back and forth trying to regulate my emotions with people pleasing and that's going to end up in a cul-de-sac eventually i think and i might say one of the things i don't want to forget this being a certified partner trauma therapist i do a lot of work with partners that means someone who's been betrayed by a spouse or someone they're in relationship with especially sexual betrayal and our field has nuanced and changed that we're now not stereotyping people your labels are for jars and cans or not for people anyhow and to say you're just co-dependent when they're in betrayal trauma and we've had this conversation and it's like and they're being labeled which can quite frankly be abusive i just wanted to put my disclaimer out as we start that yeah i think that's important because again there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding around codependency so what is your best definition of what codependency is two things i will say one is when i'm working harder on another person then they're working harder on themselves if i'm really trying to do their work and the other would be if there's a sense that and i alluded to that a moment ago i'm trying to get emotionally regulated we even talk about emotional sobriety that i'm sober emotionally i'm not really okay in and of myself if you're not okay with me if you're mad at me or you're not approving of what i'm doing i will hustle for my worthiness with you in codependency to try to feel like i'm okay and it's you and it's the next person behind you that's always going to be the person holding the ultimate scepter saying jim you are blessed you are okay you're not okay so it's it's basically going to be hustling for my worthiness and so that's what i might be doing and then what is the other person doing in a codependent relationship so if i'm hustling for my worthiness what are they doing well if it's the other person the classic sense of like with the addiction is they are enjoying you enabling them they're enjoying they're getting a free ride to some degree that they can continue to harm you or push on your boundaries cross your boundaries use you and there is no consequence it's almost defying god's word that you reap what you sow relationally they you they have someone carry their water for them as we like to say someone else does their work for them they literally are enabling them not holding them accountable for anything so they're getting this free ride which that's terrible to do with someone either with sin which is the ultimate addiction or any type of addiction i'm not held accountable for what i'm doing so let me throw out a couple of scenarios and joel maybe you'll have a scenario you want to throw out because i i just love this i feel like we're getting free counseling right this is amazing so okay let's say you're in a relationship where you recognize it is important to want that that that you recognize in yourself i'll say to myself it really is important that this other person is pleased with me okay so healthy not healthy i have to investigate that the purpose is in a person's heart are deep water so we've got to go down deep so i want to know a little bit about your family of origin what role did you play there in other words was there a sense that you were hustling for your worthiness or trying to please to win mom or dad or somebody else's approval i'd like to always know we say if it's hysterical it's historical how how far back does this go and and why does that matter why does it matter how far back it goes because of the there's a lot around and we've got like five shows to do on this that we can't do today but you study attachment in childhood okay the mirroring especially of a mother and a baby to look am i okay am i safe do you like me someone who just averts their face and i'm trying to get mom i'm trying to i need you to focus on me so we may find out that this is a long runway they used instead of thinking and i don't believe there's really an adult onset of codependency i think it's happened a lot back here in childhood so to understand how deep does this go and am i desiring i do i'm an enneagram seven and i'm just me i want people to like me i really do that's the truth is that a desire i have or does it feel like it's a demand and it's life-giving at least i'd like you to approve of me but if you don't i'm okay if you don't approve of me with codependency i feel like i'm just all dysregulated and like our uh intensive we we've called you me we the co-dependent person often does not have a me it's like you we are we you and and i don't have that and a codependent person also does not have a no which is i say no and i feel like i'm going to lose this relationship so see how it's so it's engulfing of the other person it's not like if you're disappointed i'm okay you're disappointed i feel like no i'm i'm in trouble here if you just are disappointed with me so it's almost when the pleasing of another person there's a history there i get that but then i also i think what i hear you saying is it's when you feel like if the other person is not pleased with me it almost feels like deathcon 5 like i am not going to be okay until they are once again happy with me and two other people behind them because i want to please two other so it's this endless for some people sense that i am not going to be able to be content and self-regulated it's all an external locus of control because i do agree with you i think to some extent most of us want the people were in relationship to to like us and to be happy with us and all of that but it's when it crosses that line where we're no longer able to say i'm still okay even if you're not okay with me and believe it i love that say it and believe it and i ponder why god put mathematically you have to check this out in your bible software but psalm 118 8 is the apex with the verses of the bible it's the middle verse of the bible psalm 118 verse 8 and of all things it's better to put your trust in the lord than your confidence in a person and so i just think that's a it's and the bible also talks about fear of man fear of people so there's a sense there that i'm really putting my trust in you the anxiety i can breathe everything's okay if you're okay and we have the classic book that came out what in the 70s or 80s i'm okay you're okay it's the codependent person who puts again the if in there i'm okay if you're okay with me and part of the reason this feels so toxic is it's hard to get that regulating worth statement from someone who themselves is dysregulated either because of unhealth in their own life or addictions or chaotic behaviors or toxic thinking and so you're going to someone who they themselves are not regulated and you're asking them to regulate you you went to an empty well right there's no water there that's good joel okay how what is your thinking around this yeah it's really interesting i do no i have a question for jim um you you had you guys didn't tell me this is gonna be all about me answering questions here this is so good i'm so excited right now um you know jim you said that with the code dependent relationship and you use the um the you me we this thing we're going to do here shortly there's a loss of the me so it's a you and a we so i'm curious it sounds like there is a loss of identity where where does identity play into the reality of this codependent relationship and then i'm curious how that fleshes out with how do we rightly see ourselves well i think the question of tying into this and answering that who am i and if i look in the mirror think of going into great fairy tale classics disney's done that mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all we're looking saying tell me who i am there is some wiring in that that we're wired to be able to look off of another person and try to find out maybe you can help me in a healthy relationship more reflect who i really am but that piece that we've talked about the imago day the image of god are going vertical and saying god think about how many i quit counting how many i am statements of who we are in christ and who god has said i would be and who i am and so that piece is i'm struggling with whatever level of believing that when it's already been spoken of me and to me that i'm looking for another person to tell me who i am you better better find the right person to tell you who you are because you get someone says i'll tell you exactly you are you're my servant you will let me get by with this you will do this for me that's where it gets really dangerous joel i think there's a good definition to add to what you're saying jim because i think it is really important it's not just the identity but the role that you are expected to play in the relationship and so i think it's the loss of that i am an individual and that i have needs that matter and maybe it's the fear that if i communicate my needs they will no longer help make me feel okay and i run the risk of losing the relationship but also i'm expected to play a role that i may or may not have ever agreed to play it's almost like you kind of get sucked into a situation and before you've given it any rational logical thought you get into these relational patterns that um become very one-sided and i think the one-sided part of this is really important to pay attention to darlene lancer has this quote she said codependency is characterized by a person belonging to a dysfunctional one-sided relationship where one person relies on the other for meeting nearly all of their emotional and self-esteem needs it also describes a relationship that enables another person to maintain their irresponsible addictive or under achieving behavior and i think when i read that definition i start to see the the unhealthy relational dynamics that are feeding into this um that it doesn't serve either person well and i think what's been complicated for me is feeling like if i break this toxic pattern and i am writing this book on forgiveness and i've studied and i feel such a a sense of wanting to be a forgiving person somehow it feels like breaking the toxic behavior can almost feel unforgiving in in a sense or if i'm having to break this toxic behavior by putting some safe boundaries in place which again i've stated many times i know you have two gym boundaries aren't to shove the other person away or to push the other person out of my life boundaries are to hold myself together and so but sometimes this dynamic of fixing the codependency can make me feel like i'm doing the unkind thing which almost feels like the unforgiving thing that is i love how you put that because that is going to be one of the core issues for one struggling with codependency instead of saying the codependent person the one struggling with codependency with some external locus of control of their own identity i'm okay if you're okay are you okay and then i can be okay and then i put a boundary up and the boundary doesn't need to be explained a codependent person often i've just said the name again we'll often put the word okay question mark at the end of a boundary i'm ok this is not what i'm going to do or this is what i'm going to do okay are you okay but when they begin to take the okay question mark off and say that doesn't work for me this is what i'm going to do and this is what i'm not going to do children explain adults informed sometimes codependent people will explain then i'm going to have to fear the loss of being stonewalled something else coming on that if i do this i might lose the relationship well here's the news flash you might lose the relationship yeah like you really might you're changing the contract because that dependent person who's been dependent on you to carry their firewood for them carry their water do all their work enable them not require them to show up really not to require them to show up like an adult you're changing the contract and most won't like it so there's going to be this fear of abandonment yeah it's going to be there but in reality if the relationship is built on an unhealthy or an uneven or even a toxic contract the loss of that relationship might not be a bad thing for you you said it sister that is exactly right i think as a christian um who has felt a great responsibility to bring peace into every situation i'm a natural peacemaker anyways but i think i have for so long thought if i don't make this relationship work it speaks ill of me as a person and i think doing the counseling work that you and i have done jim i am finally okay if you're not okay so notice what you did there to borrow a word you are a peacemaker because blessed are the peacemakers that's good and healthy and biblical and the co-dependent struggling person will be a peacekeeper different word than a peacemaker i've got to keep the peace at all costs and sometimes you can flow in and out of being a peacemaker and then be the peacekeeper like i got to keep everything settled here when you have no control over these people right and when i say i've had to learn to finally be okay if you're not okay what i mean by that it may still make me sad it may still affect my emotions but i am no longer willing to step into that situation and work harder on you then you are willing to work on yourself okay so joel thoughts come on man oh gosh i think there's a few one is the boundaries thing you know because i think that when i hear boundaries particularly from a biblical standpoint there can be a hesitation of wait a minute we're supposed to be all things to all people wait a minute we're supposed to love people the way that jesus loved people and so it could seem like there is this hesitancy to put up boundaries because if you put up boundaries you're being such an unloving person people have called believe it or not i know you know this they've called jesus codependent right because greater love hath no man he laid his life down he just said i have the power to do all this i'll just lay i'll let you beat me to death and do all that crazy yeah and think about this that about we find the first instance of a boundary placed by god on adam and eve you can eat of all of the trees they're all good and pleasing to the eye but yet this one tree do not eat aka boundary right the boundary was for their benefit it is for their good and so often we think of boundaries as something that deprives of something and yet the biblical picture of boundaries are actually something that sets us free to experience goodness in its greatest um scenario and its greatest pleasure i think of also the ten commandments and the law the torah the the the hebrew word torah is law but it's also instruction we're being instructed on how to live boundaries actually are both instructive for myself and actually for the people that are going to experience those boundaries um externally and so there's something that's really important and lisa you were talking about peace um and i think there's a couple caveats of peace that we should think of and cal john calvin he says it really well he gives two caveats for peace he says one we should not seek peace so much that we refuse to undergo hatred for christ that's a boundary right our allegiance to christ is superior to everything else and the second one he says is courtesy i love this courtesy should not descend to compliance leading us to flatter the vices of men for the sake of preserving peace that's the codependency if i ever heard it right wow thank you for that so if the problem is codependency and part of the solution is to learn how to draw appropriate boundaries i've listed out here some good questions to consider as we're toggling through this because different relationship dynamics are going to require different types of boundaries and also different degrees of boundary so here's some questions to consider that have been really helpful for me what kind of person do i want to be not just in this relationship but consistently in all of my relationships this question has helped me a lot because i've started to recognize no one is going to help me be a better me i have to put in place what is necessary so that i can stay consistent in who i've determined i want to be and a classic statement that i used to say and i think either maturity is helping me or counseling is helping me i'm not sure but i would say you make me so frustrated you make me so angry you make me feel so depleted okay so what i'm really saying is i have given you the power to do something that is affecting me on a level where i can't be what i really want to be and what i started to finally recognize is another person obviously affects you but they can't make you be something and unless you give them enough power to do that and so that is an indication of a script when i hear myself starting to say that or think that then i recognize there's a boundary that's not in place here that needs to be in place now obviously we're not robotic obviously other people affect us obviously we're going to step into pitfalls in our relationship we're going to trip over things and so we're going to have moments where we don't do all of this relational stuff perfectly but when it's a pretty consistent cycle that we're in of as long as i make this person happy they make me feel this way but when i make them not happy either directly or indirectly then they have the power to make me feel this way there's a boundary that's missing here's another question what do i need to do in this relationship to stay consistent in my character conduct and communication and those three c's are really important for me to pay attention to in my character in my conduct how i act and react and in my conversation what i say and what i don't say and i think i can quickly recognize i'm getting pulled into a toxic situation when i am saying things that long term i normally wouldn't say but in the short term if i get kicked into the limbic system where i'm in almost panic mode of fight flight freeze or i also say freak out right then i'm going to say words that a regulated lisa is not apt to say so what are your thoughts well and you go to the limbic brain piece so if i'm fighting i mean that's where i'm going to probably debate people back and forth if i'm fighting i'm just going to run away and get away and probably run away from who i am true too if i freeze that's that's the worst one of all of them i just i don't even know what to say or like you said freak out something's going on your body your brain and your true identity and even invid in christ is saying alert there's a problem you don't feel safe here first pay attention to it and then think of wonder what doesn't feel safe here and often what it is is i am feeling manipulated or controlled by this person or i think the bigger one around codependency is i am afraid again if i put this boundary down people do this in marriage if i say no to this and i think do you think you should say no well yeah i should if i say no it's going to cost me and i go and your second point is it is going to cost you in the boundaries thing or i should say i think even the codependency and blaming part think of this as we all have back in genesis 3. the whole thing goes down god says after evening says adam what up what's happened and he blamed god he blamed him it's that woman you gave me blame god and we've been doing that ever since blame and if blame is an attempt to discharge pain and discomfort look underneath and with someone struggling with codependency what are you afraid of if someone uses the victim language you made me mad you you're given your power while to stop and say you know you do this and i'm not comfortable and i'm angry with this or that hurts me so there's that language of since adam we've been blaming ever since blaming somebody else for us in our own issue so what do you do jim and joel i'm going to ask you both this from a theological standpoint and a therapeutic standpoint this is like one of my greatest moments i get both of you at the same time all right let's go so what do you do when you do draw that boundary and you hope that the person will respect it but they refuse to respect it and then your greatest fear does come true and you draw that boundary you stay consistent with the boundary and you communicate what i do have to give what i don't have to give the other person has such a severe reaction that if you're on the phone they slam down the phone or they ghost you and just stop talking to you all together but in some way they communicate i'm done with you end of story now from a theological standpoint and a therapeutic standpoint what do you do at that moment um i think it's complex because there's a lot of other factors that we're asking questions of are they believers um are they non-believers have they submitted themselves to a local church is their discipleship that's taking place in their lives those are all aspects of it but i turn back to romans 12 18 and we talked about this in the very first episode that we that we discussed and this is what paul says if possible so far as it depends on you live peaceably with all and so the responsibility of the pursuit of peace is on us if it's possible and so in that instance it seems like what paul is getting at is while that other person may not be willing to respect the boundaries that you've put up and while they may actually in fact cause chaos in your life you actually have a responsibility for internal peace and peace with others and so if that means that you have to make a hard decision in order to assure the greater peace is being observed and maintained for yourself and for others you actually have a biblical responsibility to pursue that and yet still maintain a posture of love care concern for the other person without inviting them in to disrupt what the lord is actually calling you to do which is maintain pace i think that's an excellent point that you're making joel especially when we have a responsibility to the people that we are doing everyday life with the people that are in our immediate family the people that we work with and we have a responsibility to not let this other situation tear us down so much to the point where we have nothing left to give because we're so spent in a uneven relationship where we're giving giving giving and the other person is consuming consuming consuming and so i guess what i hear you say is if you know that you have given what you can and that you're not carrying a burden of unforgiveness toward this person you still are carrying a soft heart maybe you do the work of forgiveness just between you and god forgiving that person but making peace with the fact the most peaceful thing might be to not allow that relationship to continue in the same way and that's not you being unkind to them that's actually living out that verse of as far as it depends on you bring peace and the most peaceful thing might be to not continue to engage with something that feels quite toxic and i think there is something spectacular about our obedience in that scenario that is a means of grace for the other person imagine if we don't do that and imagine if we continue to invite that person in to continue to do that and yet the intention that the lord has is actually when we set up that boundary and that barrier it is going to set that other person down a trajectory towards the possibility of their personal healing and their personal growth and actually we have a part to play in that it just looks a little bit different yeah i'd like to speak to that and kind of follow up with that so in in in part of the therapy world we have what we call the can't want principle and often we're saying i just can't do that or i can't and we really mean won't so you know you're moving out of some codependency when you move can't to wall i won't do that i won't have this conversation nor will i say are you okay with that i won't do this the other piece is around this is and i'm springing off what you just said with agape love hopefully you know clearly being able to see the other person's highest good have a vision of the other person's highest good if and to use some language here if you're sinning against me in this relationship and i co-sign it addicts people who are in sin they're wanting you to co-sign their behavior if i do that i'm not practicing agape love let's kick this up higher so what i'm doing in that moment is i'm actually helping you sin against me which means i'm sinning against you not a pretty picture and then i think of jesus when he said oh jerusalem or jerusalem i'm weeping over you oh how i would gather you like a mother hen gathers his chicks but you would not and there's a sense and to your original question a moment ago of what do you do mental and spiritual health is a commitment to reality at all cost it is not just a commitment to reality it's a commitment to reality at all costs and therefore what i want to do is i want to grieve the loss of that relationship it hurts mom dad family member friend says fine mutant do not disturb i will not call you i'll ghost you and grieve that get you an aaron and a her like moses had to hold your get you some friends and say hey can i share with you and just i'm in pain that's fine but you're going to have to agree we have boundaries always require grief wow you're going to have to grieve a little of at least the loss of relationship they might peace out on you and take off and you go well that cost me a lot yeah sure did okay here's another one of my questions what are their most realistic and unrealistic expectations or desires of me and what are my most realistic and unrealistic expectations or desires of them and the reason i think this is important we've talked before jim expectations that are placed on us can often be premeditated resentments and you've taught me that in every relationship we have a contract where i have something that i'm bringing to the table you have something you're bringing to the table but if our desires in that relationship are not together and communicated in one agreement then we don't even realize there's a contract but you will realize it when you break your side of the contract and that's often when just like james i believe it's james chapter 4 uh verse 1. yeah what what causes the fights and the quarrels among you is it not these desires these longings that you're bringing that you fully expected that they would get met and they're not met and so i think taking an honest assessment of is this relationship set up for failure right in the very process of the contract that we have because you're expecting something from me that i am either now because i've gotten healthy no longer willing to give you or it's just so unrealistic it becomes impossible i think that's an important thing to think about and sometimes yes it can be like a tick on a dog mentality you know tickets on a dog to suck the life out and often in co-dependent relationships there can be two ticks and no dog or one tick and i just want to suck the life out of you and with that i think that piece of expectations being premeditated resentments we're talking about unhealthy expectations whatever they may be but healthy expectations that say if we're going to be in a relationship no let's go real simple here no i will not be verbally abused you don't get to name call me you don't get to use you're so creative you use simile or metaphor you're like a jerk or like a blank some ugly name now you called me that so i have boundaries there that say i won't be around you or i won't talk with you if you're going to talk that way because i have an expectation in my self-care that i'm not going to allow someone to treat me that way and then again i don't say okay you okay if i is my boundaries here i do have some healthy expectations i think that's really good i got a question fire away i gotta ask it i am not the one in the co-dependent relationship but i am watching two people that i care about deeply and they are in a co-dependent relationship and i am stuck jim because i don't know what is an appropriate place for me to interact with or if i set up boundaries with those people because their codependency has this waterfall effect right like people around them are getting splashed by it but then if i put up boundaries like then i don't have an opportunity to be a witness for something like what do we do in that situation you ever tried to separate two cats in a cat fight no i don't like you i mean i well okay or dog the dogs i have i haven't been involved yeah well it's rough it's dangerous it's dangerous i got bit well and i like you said what can i do two people were over here fighting or in a in a codependent or a toxic relationship i'd step back with you as my buddy and say well dude let's just talk for a moment what's the pull on you it's what he calls a pull the pull on you to do anything we're not going to doubt your motives just your modus operandi the method of operating your motive is you're a lover of people and god that's the fact we know about you what's the pull on you to get involved at all well i mean you want to answer that i want to see peace yeah no you're right i wrote it down you saw me write it down just now i want p i want peace for them i want peace for me i want peace for our family and i want them to live in what i know is so much better of a reality than what they're experiencing i have a vision for them and it pains me every time i have to face the reality that that vision is unmet is it okay for joel to communicate that vision to the two people that he sees in this unhealthy relationship without labeling it without calling it anything without adding to the drama of just saying you know one of my other questions here is um how am i suffering the consequences of their choices more than they are that's just right where you were alluding yes perfect and so i think if you have a conversation and explain the consequences that you are suffering because of this behavior pattern that you see without naming shaming blaming or any of that just speak to it from experience and then what would you say jim like i would say what he said jesus did it i have some water here for you it's refreshing are you open to a dialogue i would like to offer this to you and my hands my fingerprints are still on it but my hand backs off and i'm not going to be are you going to drink it it's like jesus behold i stand at the door and knock i don't think he's just peeking all over and give them the space i have a vision first i always start with are you open to me whoever these people are to share a thought if their brain can buy in and go yeah because no one wants unsolicited advice that's classic and codependency codependent people will always be giving unsolicited advice because they feel good if you take their advice but you say i have some they see i'm open to it here's something here i have some wisdom i have a thought and then take your hands off as corey 10 boom said hold things loosely so you've got to have to pry your fingers off things like relationships and say and if they drink it they do if they don't i sit back here and call a friend and say i wish they would drink it of course you do but sometimes what we're doing you drink it yet you've done that yet just or we just barge in with advice and they're not ready to hear does that make sense totally just you offer your wisdom in your heart and so much what jesus did where this is not new folks i mean he just said i stand at the door and knock i weep over you the gospel came first to the jew then to the greek and he's going to continue but to them who did believe and so jesus has set the path out to say jesus was a 100 100 not codependent he says i offer this to you and if you don't take it yeah you get to choose that and i get to grieve over that and i'll say just speaking from experiential wisdom as we wrap up this conversation which again could be many sessions maybe we'll do part two part three whatever it takes right but for today we're gonna land it here and i i think what i will say is in doing the counseling work that we did in the marriage trauma that art and i walked through one of the most important actions that i took i did probably many things wrong but i would say this was finally a moment where i knew as hard as it was i was doing the right thing i decided i was no longer willing to work harder on art than art was willing to work on himself and i very much recognized in drawing some of the boundaries that i had to draw that i grieved the possibility of losing him in reality as i look back on it now when i stopped trying to be his savior it freed me up to be his wife it allowed him space to make the decision if he was willing to work on himself or not and in our our case he did decide to work on himself and as a matter of fact he will often say now you know lisa that is yours to work on on your side of the street and this is mine to work on on my side of the street and as we do our own work then we can come back together and after and only after we've worked on it on our own sides of the street then we can come back together and work on it together and i think it it was miraculous to watch what god did i knew i ran the risk of losing the relationship but it's only when i did what you just did i set before him the possibility that could be but i removed my hand off and said i have to let you choose i cannot choose this for you what you describe me i just say quickly it's how beautiful a description not codependent or i just won't be code dependent anymore not independent i'll just be over here i don't need you but healthy enter and intra dependence where we're depending on each other and there are quite a few one another commands in the scripture you're on your side of the street you're on your side of the street and then we come with that healthy into because some people will pull vault right out of codependency and i'll just be ruggedly independent i don't need anybody but that healthy you talk about you in our interdependence there that's what it's all about well thank you i don't know that we ever did it perfectly we may still not do it perfectly but the very thing that i feared would cause me to lose the relationship was the only shot i had at continuing a relationship that was true and healthy and that both of us could function in a healthy way inside that relationship again i recognize what we're talking about today it is messy and certainly one episode of therapy and theology probably is not going to fix all the situations that you're facing today please don't hesitate to reach out to your pastor or you can also reach out to the american association of christian counselors or to focus on the family find out about a counselor that can help you that is in your area i always want to encourage you to do that sometimes i think what we do here with these therapy and theology episodes is bringing together the biblical truth and the principles needed for emotional healing but please know that this is just the start of a conversation if you need to do deeper work around this please do thank you so much for joining us thank you guys for being here thank you for the process that you've both walked me through not only in the living of this forgiveness message but also as you have read every word and helped me navigate the whole writing process of forgiving what you can't forget and thank you for joining us today god bless you

Channel: Official Proverbs 31 Ministries

Views: 31,929

Rating: 4.9397593 out of 5

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Id: vmm8A8BbQRY

Length: 43min 43sec (2623 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 08 2020