The Worst of EVERY Smash Move! (All DLC Retrospective)

all right so i finally remade the best of every smash ultimate move like everybody requested i did once dlc wrapped up and it's gone over really well so naturally the next thing people want is the worst of every smash ultimate move we make uh yeah i want it too considering that the worst of video performed much better than the best of video last time i did them so i sat down to make the new worst of list but between dlc characters generally being pretty good and patches tending to focus more on buffs than nerfs i didn't feel there was nearly enough change to be up to the standards of a main channel video but enough hassle changed either from character patches and dlc or just my own opinions changing but i think it is absolutely a topic worth revisiting so we're going to do a bit more of a kind of retrospective postmortem thing today i think there will likely be some spoilers for the new best of every smash ultimate move video here so if you haven't seen that one yet you may want to check it out first before you watch this one [Music] [Applause] [Music] picture a randomized character with any combination of other attacks and attributes they're about to spin a wheel to select their final attack but before that they're allowed to strike one move off the wheel to guarantee they won't get it repeat for many many random characters which move gets struck most often anything that uses mana ineligible command inputs ineligible so similar to the updated best of list we're not doing this anymore we're allowing all kinds of character-specific resources with the caveat that they would have some kind of relative balancing factor right the example that i used was maybe if you're steve each pickaxe material is available for the same amount of time as it would be in an average steve match if you were mining it manually obviously there are some situations where that starts getting fuzzier than others the purpose of this is not to be some kind of brain melting ultra ultra-technical specification it's just to put you in the right mindset no multi-character mechanics no super form character states and no special cancel moves those are the only major restrictions we're using this time a surprising amount of people wanted throws covered last time but i mean this one's good because it keeps you close this one's bad because it sends you far this one's good again because it sends you really far wow how amazing and interesting too i really like that edit um last time in the updated best of list i did include throws i will not be doing that here i'm sorry i don't care if your up throw kills at 385 versus 386 percent just i'm not doing that the same applies to a lot of the other kind of bonus categories but i will likely look at some of them jabs overall rarely play more than a filler close combat role in a character's kit but it's fair to expect them to do more than samus's one two that's really just a one bizarrely the two hits of this jab don't actually combo into each other even at high percent so your actual jab is just this so samus's jab is kind of notoriously awful and has been for years at this point the thing is though it is still at least frame three which means it does at the very least perform the role of being like a panic button in close range you're certainly not getting any kind of insane follow-up off of it hell you're not even getting like a standard follow-up it's all mix-ups after that point but it has something to do wario's jab on the other hand comes out at frame eight and still doesn't have very good range and still doesn't have very good payoff so worst jab definitely goes to wario's jab in retrospect as for why i didn't make the cut the first time around i literally just didn't know the thing existed that was a straight up oversight on my part nowadays this definitely would never slip through the cracks largely because ultimateframedata.com is a thing and it makes it really easy for me to check every single move that i'm evaluating which i often do but yeah last time wario's jab was literally just not even on my radar so that was my bad forward tilts are usually fairly straightforward moves but the one i've chosen here is actually one of the least straightforward ones in this case to his detriment bayonetta's kick flurry has solid damage output and range but is also horribly slow these attacks tend to kill as compensation for their poor startup something that bayonetta will essentially never be able to do worst of all though while the kicks suit or origin game and certainly look flashy they also give opponents plenty of opportunities to pop right out which gives the attack an abysmal risk reward ratio between that the slow startup and its very poor safety on shield bayonetta's forward tilt got buffed in a patch it didn't get a lot more reliable but its reliability was slightly improved still nothing particularly great there but a much more significant change was that it now actually works as a combo starter at lower ever since because the zen leg was reduced which also makes it a little bit safer not passion enough to make it a good forward tilt i wouldn't trade most forward tilts in the game for it no matter what kind of character i was but i would trade jigglypuff's forward tilt for it so jigglypuff's forward tilt has some stuff going for it it's actually relatively quick and it's one of the safest forward tilts on shield in the game but that's because it's not even really a forward tilt it's got jab range so you're kind of trading out your forward tilt for a second jab except it's a frame seven jab and it doesn't really kill and it doesn't really have any kind of payoff whatsoever that sounds like a trade-off essentially any other character would want to make i gotta say no robin's forward tilt really sucks too but at least it's a disjoint olimars predictably sucks as a non-pikmin move but at least it's got some kill power behind it jigglypuff does essentially nothing downtilts are typically solid or even excellent attacks so much so that even after combing through every single one on the roster i couldn't find a genuinely awful one does jigglypuff's two frame no does it start combos no does it work as a poke in the neutral game uh kind of but it's poor range and speed leave a lot to be desired there while it does send at a very low angle that's not nearly the same kind of payoff other difficult to land down tilts provide and its kill power isn't anything to write home about yeah if i were to make a list of like the overall most important moves on most characters kits down to would almost certainly be in the top five whereas jigglypuff she's an air based character she's intentionally not supposed to have very good grounded moves and down tilt is just garbage like i honestly think i was too charitable to it in the original video the one vague use case it has is if you have your opponent cornered you can down tilt them to send them at a pretty harsh angle sure but that's a niche situation and down tilts are not supposed to be niche moves they're staple tools for most characters it's ganondorf up till ghost ganondorf and let's just skip ahead for a moment neutral b also goes to ganondorf i think these choices should be pretty self-explanatory but if you're interested in more detail i'd recommend checking out this video which goes over these kinds of big powerful moves obviously both those moves suck i don't think anyone's gonna argue with that actually no i take that back i definitely had people argue with me about that a much more reasonable argument i got though was that falcon punch should actually take the title over warlock punch here because realistically you shouldn't be using either of these moves in like a general neutral or even advantageous kind of setting pretty much the only reliable use case for either of those would be shield breaks and since warlock punch kills earlier than falcon punch it's a better shield break punish and nowadays i actually agree with that argument and i would give the title to falcon punch which makes me very sad to do but yeah it's the worst neutral special in the game this doesn't apply to any of the other arguments i got like no i don't care that warlock punch has armor on it that's pretty much just a non-issue but the shield break thing yeah that's pretty legit as for up till it's still ganondorf and honestly nothing else even comes close to be fair up tilt is the best it's been in a very long time and ultimate but that's like choosing what the best console is to play ballon wonder world on quick dash attacks tend to be good or at least well-worn moves where slow ones tend to be used very sparingly and king dedede's is the slowest ultimate has to offer which i also think makes it the worst now in the context of ddd's particular moveset that's not necessarily the case because he specializes in traps especially at the ledge he actually gets a surprising amount of use out of the famous belly flop very few characters would have access to anywhere near the ledge pressure that gorgos provide and while there may be a rare configuration which would prefer this to a more standard dash attack i think for the majority of characters giving up a burst movement option would be a heavy cross to bear so this was probably my single most contentious choice of the video i got a lot of comments arguing against it this time around in retrospect i'd actually give the title to king ddd okay so yes marth and lucina have bad dash attacks link and hiro have bad dash attacks but they are dash attacks they do what dash attacks are supposed to do you can envision scenarios on certain characters where someone's at the very tip of your range and the only thing that's going to hit them is dash attack king dedede cannot say this nothing about this actually works like a dash attack he functionally does not have a dash attack now that's not necessarily a bad thing snake's mortar launcher up smash for example even though it didn't make my top moves list for a second time it's still quite a good move even though it really doesn't function anything like a particularly traditional upsmash and that's because even though he's trading off quite a bit he's getting quite a bit in return so what does king dedede get in return well he gets a very slow very unsafe powerful kill option which typically tend to range from mediocre to terrible but the other thing he gets is a good two frame move like legitimately quite a good two frame move is it so much of a better two frame move compared to what most characters would have access to anyways though that it's worth essentially giving up an entire move slot for in my opinion no it's not two frame tools in general aren't really in that short supply a lot of down errors down tilts down smashes will fulfill that role whereas dash attack you really only get one dash attack there are some grand moves that can kind of step in and fill that role instead marth having a bad dash attack doesn't really matter that much because forward tilt does the same thing but they're in much shorter supply so the trade-off essentially becomes give up an entire move for a slightly upgraded version of a tool you're probably going to have anyways and as far as i'm concerned that's not a good trade-off reminder this is in a vacuum if we're looking at the moves in context no dvd's dash attack is absolutely not the worst yeah editing mock rock here i say that and yet this thing is still really trying my patience trying to find a modern in context clip of ddd stash attack actually doing what it's supposed to do took forever and our contender for forwards match continues along a similar theme snake's rpg blast is incredibly strong but also incredibly slow and snake squeezes use out of it in a way that most characters couldn't it's only one frame slower than king dedede's hammer swing which was also heavily considered but lacks that move's sweet spot punch and aerial coverage with the loss of sour spots not being nearly enough to compensate ultimate has plenty of other forward smashes with only a bit less payoff but dramatically better frame data and faster but weaker smash attacks often play a role in whiff punishing which is something that snake can almost never do so everything i said there is still pretty much true but there is one important consideration that i wasn't really taking into account at the time and that's that after you get the rpg charged releasing it from the charge animation takes very little time which means that it is actually a pretty good two frame tool and i know i just finished going on a rant about how two frame tools aren't that useful with my criteria and i stand by that but the thing is there are actually other forward smashes which are comparable to snakes in a lot of areas but don't have this benefit including king deities who i'd actually give the title to now snake's nearly instant charge release also gives them some other benefits and different setups whereas king dedede's forward smash you basically just kind of have to time it and wing it and hope that it works out does provide better aerial coverage so in like corner situations you can stop your opponent from jumping out in a way that snake can't quite match and you might also accidentally catch some anti-air there's no way you're doing it on reaction so it's not like a strict black and white kind of deal which one of these moves is better i should say worse but i think a lot of the strengths of ddd still keep it firmly within that you know slow but strong so therefore terrible mentality that a lot of smash moves kind of tend to get lumped into whereas snake does have more going for him for the record in my opinion snake still does have quite a bad forward smash and if you're not running like a specifically trap based setup i really can't think of a lot of move sets that would even give it a second glance but i do think it has definitely more going for it than dvd dance matches tend to be some combination of quick safe and large and if you take all of these away you're left with wario while his breakdancing seems to be an attempt to one up mario's impressive moves like most of his efforts has fallen apart quite badly and we're left with a limp ground spin with unimpressive range power speed and the unfortunate title of one of the least safe moves in smash this attack takes more than a full second to complete and blocking one hit means you don't need to block the rest so if wario's dan smash whiffs or is shielded which is going to happen a lot due to its framemate startup and small hitbox you're about to eat one hell of a punish my god this move sucks and i actually kind of love that it sucks because it's really flavorful in comparison to mario's you know mario's kind of doing the controlled break spinning wario is just completely going overboard and getting out of control really cool i like that detail but yeah this move is terrible well basically all up smashes play at least some role as an anti-air even the ones most aggressively tuned in this direction tend to be usable to a certain degree against grounded opponents this does not apply to hiro his upward sword stab lacks any meaningful coverage from the blade as well as losing the grounded launchers similar moves tend to have meaning that it's strictly limited to use as an anti-air or pressuring opponents on platforms against opponents on platforms you need to position yourself very specifically meaning that it struggles to cover multiple options in say a tech situation in anti-air territory the strictly vertical hitbox doesn't cover jumping approaches and even reasonably strong opponents are rarely going to try and land directly on top of you it's also essentially useless as a note of shield option which is the other role upsmashes tend to play hiro was in competition for this placement with similarly inflexible upsmashes namely donkey kong the belmonts and isabel yeah this one was a little bit funny to give out people were confused about whether the critical hit the 108 chance to do insane damage and knockback was in place with heroes up smash yes it would be because that mechanic is very easy to self-contain within the move and yet i still feel like it's just that bad one other common suggestion i got that should have fit on here was we fit trainers i don't really get that one it clearly hits grounded opponents and yeah even though one out of eight times heroes up smash just completely cheats for you who cares it's use cases are just so narrow all right let's be honest little mac clearly has the worst aerials that doesn't make for an overly interesting video though so we're gonna run this section through for first runner up so from the top neutral layers are pretty much all at least solid apart from one there really isn't a legitimately bad move in the bunch i ultimately had to settle on olimar while fairly quick this move is also tiny making it a poor option out of shield and a go-to move slot for this purpose like most neutral airs it does act as a combo starter this only applies to very strict spacings though and outside of this combo roll unfortunately it's launch angle knockback and inconsistent hitboxes give it essentially no functionality either as a kill move or edge guarding tool bayonetta was considered because of the extreme landing leg and low kill power of her spin kick although it's still a large attack that has its role in edge guarding and air-to-air scenarios duck hunt's cartwheel meets the bare minimum standards for a regular neutral error but does meet them zelda's magical spin is notoriously inconsistent but when it does work the reward is much higher so the zelda inconsistency thing was actually patched out i still don't think it connects incredibly reliably most multihit aerials still have issues with that but it used to be like really bad i actually had some people argue with me that little mac shouldn't have the worst neutral air title which i firmly disagree with the fact that it's frame two means nothing if it doesn't do anything else i didn't just take little max aerials at face value i did individually weigh them against every other aerial independently but i still came to that conclusion without too much issue as for the second place choice yeah i'd still give it pretty handily to olimar it's definitely not going to any of the new dlc characters that got released after this video which is kind of a common theme among why this video hasn't changed as much as the best moves equivalent forwarders of all kinds are often staples of a character's neutral game and if you're going to give that up you'd hope to get something else good in return snake's axe kick definitely has a lot of payoff if you land it but at 23 frames of wind up the slowest and ultimate this is asking quite a lot even with snake's niche trap setups which most characters wouldn't be able to utilize while meta knight's forward air is underwhelming pits has criminally small hitboxes and mr gaming watches can be completely snuffed out these attacks all still have at least some contribution to the character's game plans mr gaiman watch is not even really that clear if he should be in the discussion anymore i still kind of maintain that most characters wouldn't want to give up their forward errors for that bomb drop but he clearly makes decent use of it this obviously wasn't a super formal list i don't use a strict honorable mention system for the worst of list but i do think that we fit trainer should have been in the conversation mennonite still would be even though it got buffed a few times and i'd actually put terry here nowadays as well but the thing is all of these moves still definitely do things right there aren't really any terrible forward errors apart from arguably snakes and definitely a little max which just as a heads up isn't first place for every aerial i'm not going to bother mentioning it anymore backers are again overall great moves and there aren't any true duds outside of little mac but i think piranha plant comes closest does it kill yes but that applies to the vast majority of back airs in the game does it have a decent hitbox yes but again the competition is stiff still this move seems at least fine until you try and use it high in the air when you realize that the animation takes more than a second to finish for no justifiable reason hiro is in direct contention for the choice due to the higher initial startup of his sword slash which lacks quite the same raw kill power but is saved by the move's more generous hitbox higher safety on shield and less overall commitment this one i still feel pretty good about and again it feels a little bit weird to have to give it to anyone right you look at piranha plants and you're like oh okay well i mean it's strong it's big it does some stuff but i remember feeling pretty validated about this at the time because i got a lot of comments going like no it can't be piranha plant look at x and y thing it does it's big it's strong it does some stuff but those comments were pretty much never accompanied by a backyard that was actually worse that's how this works and it's something that i see actually pop up a decent amount on move ranking videos on both my channels something needs to go in this slot does piranha plant's back air have strengths yes absolutely it does are those strengths better than essentially any other backyard apart from max no i don't think so and i think hiro's the only other one that is really competing with the vast vast majority of down airs are some combination of spike landing hitbox and stall and fall and while all of these are relatively specific tools i think stalin falls are the most specific which means the next task is to single one out of the group and i ended up going with sonic ridley's comes out much faster in kills two links has the disjoining kills banjos is much faster and has a disjoint bayonet his kills and has a much larger hitbox bowsers kills and has a disjoint korins is much faster and sets up easier kamikaze situations greninjas has combo potential and bounces off shields along with the belmonts mr gaiman watches as much faster kills and has a disjoint sheik is faster and so is zero suit samus also when i put out a tweet about this video i predictably had some people bring up ridley but i disagree with the reputation this attack has gained compared to other stalin falls it's quite fast at frame 11 and has respectable kill power that rapid fire segment took a long time to record as for the move choice yeah okay it's ridley he's blow sonic for one very specific reason though for all the weaknesses that sonic's has it does still send him at a diagonal angle which means that his coverage on opponents below him is still much better than ridley can manage if an opponent overextends and chases someone directly into the air ridley's downer is still much better than sonic's because he can actually get a reversal and do a kill off of it but the thing is in 2022 people aren't really gonna do that at top level anymore it's questionable how much they were really doing that even at the time but nowadays i think people have gotten way better at playing around both these moves in which case ridley's standard has much less to offer for up there we're going to break our selection criteria bit and choose king k rule so just as a reminder this does not apply to king k rule anymore we're getting rid of this criteria entirely so his armor is completely fair game now this attack does have its strengths carroll's head is intangible at the start of the move he lunges fairly high and hits pretty damn hard when he manages to swat someone out of the air if he misses though unlike with most up there's there's no further opportunity to create pressure due to the absurd 71 frames the move takes to finish this also makes it quite dangerous to try and use near the ground and it was already one of the least useful landing up errors i am aware that a lot of people would choose sonic's scissor kick for this position due to its consistency issues but even with this in mind i still consider it a far more versatile and overall usable tool you know i actually just got finished recording an entire segment about how i stand by this choice but heroes up there exists it's really close heroes up air has way more use cases than k-rool does which is a huge consideration but it still lets you get very little off it and it's really specific to land carroll's was actually buffed after this video was made to be made even stronger which i don't really care about for the most part strength was far from its issue but it would open more viable kill confirm routes stuff like throws or down airs and up air so i think i'm gonna give it to hero over king k rool but it's not by much heroes up here is essentially lucario is already fairly weak up there without any of the potential payoff of aura yeah that doesn't sound very good having already brought up warlock punch we turned a side special and are greeted with yoshi trying his best next for down b the chameleon of the special move category i've sadly once again gotta go with a really cool attack ridley skewer this is another one of these big moves which are awesome to land but ultimately not particularly practical for obvious reasons skewer overall has more utility and setups due to its increased speed again covered pretty comprehensively in this video if you're interested in further details kirby was a contender here but stone's ability to bypass many juggling scenarios is overall more consistently useful and it has other applications as well hey the rare new dlc contender because bileth is in the picture now if that big moves analysis video was made today it would definitely have to include amir because that thing is the textbook example of a big slow impractical tool that gets essentially no competitive use it does definitely have strengths over skewer it's a bigger hitbox it breaks shields it's got super armor you can drop through platforms with it and on top of that skewer was actually nerfed after this video came out which is kind of hilarious it was mainly done to fix a doubles and free-for-all exploit like berry infinites and stuff like that which don't actually matter at all for this list this is purely a singles focus list but they did this by coding skewer to be classified as a grab and because ultimate has protection from chain grabs built into it this means you can no longer for example down throw and hard read into a skewer anymore it's not a particularly significant nerf very few people were gonna get caught by that anymore but it is a nerf as funny as that is though i think i'm still giving it to amir over skewer because like platform tech chases into skewer are still more practical than i think anything biolith can really do and as we end this video on the recovery special slot we end this video without a recovery special jigglypuff's sing works fine in the context of her kit but exclusively here due to her unique combination of many jumps and extreme airspeed there's a reason that not a single other character has an up special design in this way now admittedly this decision is partially an artifact of the selection criteria chosen for this video any methodology is gonna distort results one way or another i believe overall the judgment in a vacuum is the most objective way to evaluate an attack though and given this criteria and the fact that sing is a niche move to begin with it clearly takes the title obviously this still holds up none of the new dlc characters had designed similar to jigglypuff if i wanted to pick like an actual proper recovery move as a runner-up which i guess also excludes yoshi then i think i would go with kirby as a recovery move is just terrible very short range and leaves you really vulnerable obviously it's better for peer recovery than something like little max but if you've got like good air physics or a decent side special that's probably not the end of the world for you to be stuck with little max b and it also doesn't really have any of the benefits that other similar vulnerable recovery moves have it's not very fast it's not very strong just inexplicably bad and has been for a really long time i obviously also still do like the in a vacuum approach compared to in context because if you judge moves in context it obviously heavily biases things towards top tiers a comment i've gotten quite a few times on that older video and to some degree still get today is something along the lines of like what's the point of judging moves in a vacuum what is doing this accomplish and i just kind of find the question confusing what's the point of tearless what's the point of game retrospectives the point of them is that people like watching them alright and that's as far as the moves in the original 2019 video and as i said though like with the revamped best of every smash ultimate move video let's look at a few more categories for input move i think the worst one is pretty clearly piranha plant honestly this is closer to like a taunt or an easter egg than it is a proper attack but the criteria for the list is any move that doesn't use a typical input which is exactly what piranhaplan's crouching attack does so here's piranha plant's crouching attack worst grab i think i would give to the belmont it's frame 10 which makes it the only normal grab that's that slow for comparison a fast grab is frame six geyser juniors is another frame slower but at least that one is kind of pretending to be a tether grab the belmonts don't get anything like that they're just kind of the worst of all worlds it's not even particularly big to make up for this for there there aren't any like genuinely bad zeros in the game but i think tune link probably comes closest it's short which puts it in the category worse for neutral but it also just has a bit less payoff than the other short ones not a lot less payoff though for taunts the worst of a bad bunch i'd say it's pretty clearly greninjas that move does absolutely nothing although if you want to include k-rool's armored taunt sure that's a contender as well but personally i don't think that counts and then finally for final smash i feel like jigglypuff is kind of the front-runner in a lot of people's minds and that move is definitely not good but the way i envision final smash is kind of integrating into the rest of the list is through the final smash meter variant because again this list is focused on competitive one-on-one play and that's about as competitive as you can make final smashes and the meter version of final smash is take a heavy knock back nerf which doesn't really apply to jigglypuff quite the same way whereas sonics is already a very bad final smash and it's definitely hit by those nerfs as well it begins life as one of the easiest to avoid final smashes with some of the wars to pay off and then you take that payoff and make it even worse yeah considering how iconic and powerful supersonic is supposed to be man does that thing suck alright thanks for watching everyone i know this isn't exactly what everyone was hoping for for this video me included but hopefully you got something out of it and let me know your thoughts updated best of version here pokemon video here and patrons youtube members and twitch subs get perks like early videos and discord access later people

Channel: MockRockTalk

Views: 207,049

Keywords: Smash Ultimate, alpharad, Nintendo, little z, super smash bros ultimate, smash bros ultimate, tier list, esam, hungrybox, ssbu, alpharad deluxe, Nintendo Switch, Gameplay, nairo smash, nintendo memes, nintendo, smash ultimate tier list, smash ultimate tournament, smash ultimate best attacks, smash ultimate best moves, super smash bros ultimate best moves, super smash bros ultimate worst moves, sora smash, sora smash bros, smash bros, kazuya, kirby, mockrock, worst of every smash move

Id: aMnE5qAjGhE

Length: 24min 54sec (1494 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 24 2022