The untold history of Winston Churchill and the British Empire | Tariq Ali | The Big Picture S4E9

wherever the British Empire went they found an easier way the easiest way to rule was to divide they did that in irand India the division of the Middle East during the Ottoman period a lot of the troubles in today's world are the outcome of Churchill and Imperial policies carried out by the British in that part of the world so there's no forgiveness history is still with us welcome to the big picture podcast my name is Muhammad Hassan and today we talk about the untold and often brutal Legacy of the British Empire a legacy that was reformed and romanticized in modern times through the image of Winston Churchill to do that I sat down with British Pakistani writer activist and public intellectual TK Ali Ali has consistently questioned and prodded Britain's history writing from the voice of a global South forcing their colonial Masters to account for their past crime times his most recent work is a biography of the iconic wartime prime minister Winston Churchill arguably one of the most written about historical figures in our time but the book titled Winston Churchill his times his crimes walks a different line far from the image of Churchill as a brilliant orator and an unconventional Statesman who became the moral voice of the West against Hitler the portrait Ali pays is one of a self-obsessed ruthless and deeply racist Colonial leader who lost little sleep over his crushing attempts to maintain Britain's rule in particular his actions in Ireland Kenya and Bangladesh led to some of the most horrific atrocities of the 20th century now this conversation takes place before October 7 and the war on gazda but this quote from Churchill in 1936 speaking about the expected displacement of Palestinians by zionists is very telling quote I do not agree that the dog in the manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have laay there for a very long time I do not admit that right I do not admit for instance that a great wrong has been done to the red Indians of America or the black people of Australia I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race a higher grade race a more worldly wise race to put it that way has come in and taken their place so who is the real Winston Churchill and what does his legacy teach us about the history of [Music] Britain B Ali thank you very much for being with us welcome to the big picture very nice to be with you I want to speak to you about Winston Churchill who you have uh biograph in this book who you are also very clearly uh add admire of because he spent so much time digging into his history at his past and all of the colorful things that he has been quoted saying over a time which was a lot you he was somebody that spoke a lot that wrote a lot and what was that experience like in in trying to document somebody with such an abundance of material uh well you know I had a different idea to most biographers because church has become such a huge cult figure in this country and to a certain extent in the United States that I knew the story I had read a number of his books before but this time what I did was to read the biography is written about him not all of them but the worst ones and some of the best ones um and I wanted to contextualize church not present as an individual with faults and you know merits and all this but to contextualize him and put him in the context of his time and the times that created the English ruling class that produced churchin so I did a lot of historical study and historical work to explain the formation of social classes in this country their divisions their rouss their fights so Churchill for me was much more than the person who emerged during the second world war to lead this country for me he was a imperialist warlord a ruling class politician who had very little Sympathy for the working class uh in this country and who fought always on two fronts against his enemies of people thought to be his enemies abroad and against the Enemy Within as they used to call it uh the miners the railway workers Etc at home so I wanted to write a very different type of biography uh and that's why he put his crimes up front and one of the interesting things in in reading this is that as you said you know a lot of the book is spent talking about historical context what was happening in the world what was happening in the uh in in the the times where Churchill emerged and at times you know as a as a narrator it seems that you are much more interested in these things than you are with his you know particular take on the W yeah we know everything about him since you know we've had hundreds of books written about him we have had three Drama Series in Britain alone four movies so what more is there to to know about him so it was pointless to repeat all that stuff good or bad so I decided to do the book in a different way and also study the impact of Churchill's policies or British Imperial policies which he represented uh to see their impact in India in ptin and then even during the second world war itself what Churchill did in Greece crushing the Greek resistance that it played a major part in helping to defeat the fascists and the third R and this resistance was crushed because church and was worried they would win after the war as well a resistance a resistance uh LED largely by the Communist Party of Greece and Allied groups of the left it was a left win resistance so you know what amazed me is when I sort of talk about the book so many people don't know this stuff and they're quite shocked and why are they shocked they're shocked because the church he presented to them as the of a a God you know little icon you put in your homes and you worship and this is a I I want to stress also that this is a relatively new development that during his life Churchill was not created in that fashion in fact at the height of the second world war in 1942 there was serious talk about removing him as prime minister and finding someone else because of the defeats the British had suffered in PUK and in uh Singapore uh Etc so in this image of Churchill which we see today as a British godhead is linked very much to Mrs tatcha's victory in the 80s and her decision to wage war on the forlands on Argentina uh to keep the Oakland uh fand's uh British and they needed a symbol and who what better symbol she thought than Churchill so that's the time they started building him up and I point out in the book that in the 60s and' 70s churching was the butt and the of sists they attacked him there were plays written about him there were criticisms made about him and Imperial policies in that period and that uh people have forgotten and the young don't know so what has pleased me a lot is that the response I've had from Young people is incredibly positive I've had lots of emails from you know people during the ages of 18 and 30 saying we have no idea we had no idea so that is the reason I think why the book is doing despite you know not too many reviews especially from the liberal press you know the guardian didn't review the book The L Review of Books didn't review the book Etc but the writer attacked it and that got it noticed so um the you know I'm I'm very pleased I'm very pleased uh that I I did this book because it a as to ugate really is to say here is another view we live in times where people don't like listening whatever subject whatever the debate on the other side they don't like debating it's a sort of culture in which often people say oh I don't want to read the book because it refers to X and Y who we love in a bad way and this has created a very narrow fistin culture today and I want to sort of break through that as well for those who worship Church um and get people to read it so they know I mean ding paint is fine on a statue I have no objection to that but you need to to to do a bit more than that because one of the things I felt when uh young people were tearing down or wanting to tear down Statues by the way no one did that the church here they just drop pain and I said fine these horrific people who were slave owners and all that that states of the local population doesn't want them get rid of them but for the historical statues of people who built created the British Empire you you can't tear all of those down because it's part of the history of this country and a minority can't determine what that history uh should be or is it's the past what you can do is where these statues exist whether it's Church ins or whoever else is is put alternative PLS so this is the official view this is the view of the whatever the Historical Society of was you know that there is another view and in a world where increasingly the mainstream media speaks with one voice on many questions it's very important for the functioning the proper functioning of democracy to have a m you when you were researching um Churchill and and I mean one of the enduring myths about him as a person is that he was this great farseeing military mind and of course the way that you describe him the way that many others describe him is is anything but that is is somebody that maybe when he was young desperately wanted to become this kind of person but that ultimately failed on on multiple occasions to and and you know was proven wrong on several of these um very key decisions that he had to make how much of Churchill in your mind is is somebody that deserves to stand out as a singular person versus somebody who was merely almost a consequential figure of his time and and and that those last Decades of the British Empire I think Churchill was desperate to be a military leader he had that in him uh he didn't go to university he went to Sandhurst the military academy in Britain after a number of attempts he finally got in because the entrance to Sanders was very difficult and jealously guarded that he got in but he never made it in that sense you know he had these fantasies and illusions that he was a great military leader and Military strategist but no one of no one serious within the Army at the top levels of the army ever believed that and when he was given the chance to do uh Implement his strategic thinking they were disas you know the D Nels in the first world war led to numerous deaths because of bad thinking strategic incompetence Churchill insist insisting it'd be done in a particular way others opposing it and they were proved right so finally um I think the only uh Road he could play was uh resisting the uh the German uh advances in the second world war defending the British Empire and this too if we're truthful the people who won the second world war was the Soviet Union the Russians of that time and the United States the combination of these two big bars basically in different ways destroyed the third right on its own BR couldn't have done it because the empire was in Decline well obviously one shouldn't take away from church it is attempts to mobilize the people prog which you know most other the politicians would have attempted church have had more flare in that regard because of how he regarded himself and so he could play that role but as a politician I mean I don't think he was that consequential and look even as far as the second world war is concerned had Hitler decided to crush the British expeditionary force in France at the time of dco Britain might have foughten what is interesting and I speculate in in the book as to why Hitler didn't do it many different stories with the most authoritative one is Hitler said that the British Empire is too big for us to go so if we completely destroy the British army who will run the British Empire the Germans can't do it on their own but I'm not sure I believe that because you know the French Empire was carried on existing while France was occupied by the by by the Germans the Germans collaborated with the French Colonial officers and Etc so it's a strange business because if you look now at the records the Germans were within hours of taking D cook and that would have been the end of the British expeditionary Force but they didn't do it and the German generals were going mad because just as they were about to reach uh Dunka General Garian was ordered to stop he said where are these crazy orders coming from how the furer why he shouted no one could tell him and so it remains a bit of a mystery as to how and why that happened I mean I'm of course we're thrilled it didn't happen but the question is raised so the mythology that has been created around Churchill especially and including during the second World War uh needs to be studied in detail and that is what I've attempted to do and also to show them what the history of this Empire was and what it did and that history is still with us the division of the Middle East during the Ottoman period the Middle East as we know it now was one large space a space in which towns dominated not States not Nations you know so you could go to school in Jerusalem go to Secondary School in Aman and go to the University in Kyo normal for people young Arabs being educated that creating it into little States dividing it between France and Britain I think as we can see was not a great idea as far as the Arab people are concerned it effectively led to the whole idea of an Arab Nation an independent Arab Nation being wrecked by all this and divid and Rule of course traditionally is the way Imperial power's role look at what the Americans did in Yugoslavia what they're doing in Syria what they're doing in Somalia Etc so uh it's the consequences are still with us and not to mention what they did in Palestine and the NBA you know I have to be honest with you when I wake up these days and look at the newspapers or look at the message messages I'm getting on my uh uh Twitter and Facebook accounts from Palestine and Palestinians I really want to weep and in in my head I weep because what is effectively taking this is the Erasure the destruction of Pista and the way best once again is collaborating in all that and the people who get very worked up about Ukraine don't think about Palestine don't think about Yemen don't think about Syria don't think about Libya so it these are dangerous times and that too is part of the Imperial Legacy for a church and was responsible he said there are good Jews and there are bad Jews the bad Jews make Revolution s and the good Jews aists who want to build their own State their own state in Bist so a lot of the troubles in today's world are the outcome of Churchill and Imperial policies carried out by the British in that part of the world so there's no forgiveness and I wanted to ask you because I mean you yourself were born in what was British at the time just years before um partition and uh no doubt your own life and the lives of people around you were were you know directly impacted by the these policies the consequences of um this policy of of separation and and Division and and you know you document how Church Hill was was one of the The Advocates of that in Ireland and in the Middle East and in in uh in the subcontinent um is that in your mind far from what happened in World War II and what happened yes there were Alternatives uh wherever the British Empire went they found an easier way the easiest way to rule was to divide and Rule so they found minorities who they could support against the majority uh in or did that in Ireland who did that to a certain extent in India Ken divided Bengal in India partitioned it in 1911 it was like a rehearsal a dry run for what happened in 1947 so they were thinking about um all these things in the last 100 years of the Empire and carrying them out and India was particularly disastrous not simply because of the way in which partition was horribly divised but also the famine in bangal you know which there's a debate whether 3 million people died or 5 million people died I mean whatever it's horrific and they were this was a man-made disaster the war cabinet under Churchill and atle the labor party was the same on these many of these three subjects um they decided there was nothing they could do to help Bengal when they're taking all the rice out of the province there's Mass starvation people are dying on the streets uh there's nothing we can do the British Vice Roy in India Lord wavel was shocked his wife visited Bengal she was she said I have never seen human beings in this state you know well welcome to the British Empire uh and she pleaded for help she did you know what she could herself but it was nothing on the scale and W's correspondent with London is quite sharp saying you know what do you think you're up to so um it's not a good story and the the attempt to make it into a good story which started happening mainly in the thata Years not exclusively uh and and is carried on if you look at the bu of the books that are written I mean the British historians who claim to be important historians and sort of and pride themselves rarely mention Kenya and the brutality with which the Kenyan people were treated by the white British who were there and occupying them and basically trying to divide kenas so the best lands were given and handed over to the whites as in rishia before and tan American historian Caroline Elkins uh in Harvard wrote a couple of books on Kenya most British historians mainstream historians he ignored this completely I remember in a debate with Nile Ferguson in the United States many years ago I raised Kenya no rubbish rubbish well now the American academics say it he these British historians are saying no no it was it did happen we didn't cover it Etc anything but rubbish so this attempt of uh to override and to make invisible things which very clearly happen is not working and I have to say that you know many American historians are producing better histories the British Empire than British very noticeable throughout your career there's been this um this drive to to present an alternative Narrative of world history uh as as it has been you know dictated and written by by European voices for for a long time what was the driving force behind that what inspired you and continues to inspire you to to to be that alternative voice it's not so much to be an alternative voice though it has become that but it's tell the truth and not conceal things so sometimes there are you know exaggerations and untruths written but the most common way of uh in which many mainstream historians not all of them right is to concede it don't talk about it it'll go away people will forget I mean for instance in in the Churchill book I give an account of the disastrous intervention against the Russian Revolution by Churchill and others uh and the stories I have found to tell were there for people to find they didn't they tell their back on them there were mutinies inside the British army which was sent to Russia senior officer uh from South Africa actually refused the orders from Churchill to use chemical warfare against Villages captured by the Bings he said we're not going to do it you know they just uh World War I had ended and the use of gas had offended everyone used by both sides not just the Germans so this guy said no we're not going to use it he is an incredibly popular officer Jud and ordered that he be court marshaled and presumably shot but he was so popular that the British High command can do that so instead they they fought to end the intervention they said it's impossible it's not working we were told we were coming to Russia to pick up British stragglers from the first world war but this is a war to destroy a revolution which we don't like this is not the way to go about it and these stories I was really asked at two or three different meetings T waited you get this information I from the that we I you don't have the resources as an individual to go and hire researchers and did yeah I go into libraries and find the book and uh that is that is the way I do it precisely to debate and challenge what the mainstream historians are doing and they doing it for a particular purpose the whole atmosphere changes I mean in the 60s and' 70s there was a big shift in the culture for instance on the first World War there was huge criticism because many of those who had fought were alive and they knew it was a horrible War uh they knew they would never do that again they hated it sung they wrote vicious songs there were plays put on the stage attacking that war but just a few years ago and they were lifting that war it's a great War once again putting all the blame on the Germans etc etc so the way the the culture shifts depends very much on what is happening outside uh that particular field as well so satire challenging government varities the emergence of satirical magazines like private all this helped and that world is not totally disappeared but it's become very different and that's why I write really I mean you know when I I was writing my set of novels on the clashes between uh uh Islamic civilization in Western Christendom the the the the uh what is now called the Islam quintet my five Noels and people again said my God we didn't even know Islam was in Europe wow really yes and you know not just there were intelligent people they said we had no idea and when I went the book was my first no published in Spain Shadows of the pomegranat Tre kids would come up to me they said Islam was here for 600 years I said yeah and they didn't force you to join on lots of Spanish people was just join Muslims um so that is now I'm happy to say on the course list in all it was now that the right is going to win again they probably a school course so people know their own history yeah you know and that applies to the history of the past but also history as uh it is being made I mean if you look at Ukraine everyone think it's just Putin not Putin did a very bad thing invading a country and declaring that the national self-termination of Ukraine was over okay I don't support it but nor do I support the previous 20 years in which NATO had been moving further and further closer to Russia to provoke warned by its own people CIA Chief uh the guy now warned them don't don't do it don't try and drive Ukraine into NATO it's a step too far they didn't listen so to just blame poon without seeing uh the circumstances that led up to it that's how they that's how they do War you know the Iraq War virtually the same Saddam was the Ally they used Saddam to fight against Iran so um to to to answer your question it's when the media became a total instrument of the governments and this happens especially when the wars are being fought and the 21st century has become a century of Wars people thought there would be a peace dividend but no there's no peace dividend for the Palestinians for the Arab people's countries are being invaded Etc so um in the circumstances when I don't find anything I just sit down and write a book I wrote a book on uh 911a fundamentalisms on Iraq Bush and Babylon on Obama uh when he came to power in the United States he was elected lots of liberals and well-meaning people said are black forested Li attention he may be black but what is he going to do and we now know what he did you know sent in more troops into Afghanistan deported more people than both from the United States but just like anyone else it's like in Britain today I mean RI sonak is effectively a second great ban and that's what he is that the Tories made in prime minister indicates their own problems in terms of not having a leadership and not being able to deal with the situation under Boris but uh the fact that sunak is nonwhite or that this completely imperical woman so bra is nonwhite you what does it mean it means nothing they're politicians they carry on in the same old way so we're using identity politics to determine whether something is Progressive or not doesn't always work sometimes it does but not in the case of mainstream um politics so I write it's the way I'm you know I go and speak at demonstrations for um Palestine against Wars but my main activity now over the last few years has been writing producing books and then going and arguing in favor of the and uh I'm glad that you that you mentioned shadow of the pomegranate tree which is a book that I I love uh quite a bit and I remember my experience reading that and and reading the the ending to that as well with with the scenes of that you describe of of the book burnings during the Inquisition and and I I found myself getting really emotional about the idea of how much knowledge could be lost and how many books could be lost forever essentially because of acts like this um and it reminds me of of just the the the power that exists in who gets to tell history and who gets to narrate the events of our past and and and are present um do you feel like today there are a lot more voices like yourselves that are from the global South especially from that perspective challenging the way that history is told yeah I think there are a lot more voices I mean there's a whole Lear now of Young Writers writing fiction mainly in India Pakistan egyp Algeria all over the world which was first they themselves saw completely through European and uh that's that's changed that has changed a lot well I did Shadows of the pomegranate tree in Spain I got a letter from a Arab writer saying how nice you've done this book and I like it very much and I've written a book too on Spain and R her name was so we became friends she was married to a Palestinian a poet mid and so we became friends as a result of writing this and discussed how she had written it and how I'd written it but I was very thrilled by that because I said people are beginning to wake up a bit you know and more and more people are doing this I'll tell you a sort of interesting story about Shadows of the pomogranate tree when that book came out in 19 92 really I tell you honestly very few people knew about Islam's history very few including in Spain and Portugal um I got a phone call from a very top Hollywood agent he said you hi Mr Ry I read your novel I love it it's totally cinematic I would like to make it into a movie and could I just explore with three or four top directors uh what they think get them to read it and I'll be back in touch I said yeah fine you know I can't stop you to do as you wish within a fortnight he'd run back and said I've shown it to a number of directors and they love it but they say in Hollywood and he said I'm now going to ask you a crass question and I did I know you will scream but I have to ask it but two of these directors said if he agreed to change 90% of the characters to choose we would make the film wow really really so I said to him I did scream he said I know you're right you're going to tell me to jump I said I wouldn't even consider it because the whole point of recovering the history of Islam in Spain and elsewhere in Europe is to tell stories that people don't know and I said it is not the case that it was the Jewish people who ran Spain on the contrary they had nice stories about the collaboration of Muslims and Jews of how Jews got the highest positions they've ever had uh in um in Islamic Spain and Islamic Portugal so he said I know I'm really sorry forgive me I said it's don't worry you w you weren't surprised but even I was surprised well how can you you know you're telling a a historical Story how can you change it and make it completely false when I write historical novels I never change the facts about inventing Wars this I invent characters but around historical facts so I was really shocked by that I I think today there is um more than any time in in in recent memory there there's a real challenge to the history and the retelling of History um of Empire of the British Empire of European colonialism um and of the story that I think has been commonplace um certainly for the last 100 years in in the way that Britain saw itself in the way that European history was taught what do you think the consequence of this has been in terms of how people in the UK British people see themselves see their own identity and their place in in history well I think a lot has changed in Britain since the second world war slowly but it it has changed and there are large numbers of people who don't you know who say the empire was a disgrace not a majority I don't think cuz they're quite proud of it and they're proud of it on a strange level not that we went and killed so many people but that how could people from this tiny little island go and conquer the world that's how they look at it and I can understand why they do that but that is not uh enough for them too to justify what uh Britain did and the European powers it wasn't just Britain the all the powers of Europe uh did this and participated in the rape of Africa the whole continent was taken by the Europeans and uh the British of course got the largest share both in Africa and also in Asia I mean they took quite a lot but the interesting thing is that the Americans wouldn't let the Europeans come to Latin America or South America you know the Monro Doctrine was put into place by the United States under Preston Monroe who said this is our backyard you're not allowed in here but the interesting thing is I I once um saw this figure which interested and amazed me is that Britain made more money out of his trade with Argentina than it did make money from large parts of Africa and other colonies they needed these colonies to assert British ay but in terms of money making of course they made money in South Africa from the gold minds they made money in India and Pakistan what is now Pakistan through alumine but in quite a few countries in Africa Etc they didn't make that much money but the ownership of the territory was absolutely essential so that they could actually take money but the Argentinian model was just a trade model they went they trade it they built stuff um and the profits were very high so they could have done that there was an alternative way of dealing with the world do you think this revision of history that is that is taking place very much alive um right now is linked to this um revitalization of Winston Churchill's image this uh the way people talk about him right now the fact that there's been you know dozens of books that have been published just in the last couple of years Alone um do you think there's a link between people trying to reimagine or or re revive their their idea of Britain you know um this Churchill worship is very much a state induced Enterprise they wanted it uh they had the historians they had the broadcaster filmmakers U because they wanted something for themselves and church you especially when they started Reviving these sub Imperial dreams like f going and taking the forlands islands with whose return to Argentina was being negotiated by the British themselves the argentinians were stupid in how they behaved but in any event um that revived uh Churchill and the uses of Churchill and you know since uh the beginning of this Century Britain has been involved in Wars not as an independent part but as a power totally acting with and on behalf of the United States and so Churchill offers a possibility of saying when look we produce Churchill that was long before we were there slaves of the United States and so we have our own independent thing it it they think it provides Churchill gives them an alibi of continuity between the British Empire and what they're doing now and of course that isn't the case because they couldn't do anything about the United States today but Church it is um is used used for that function and it's not that all you is presidents have been pro- churched Obama wasn't he was a Kenan origin partially and he didn't like Churchill Biden had his statue removed from the overal office because he said I come from Ireland and you know I know what Churchill and the Brit did there so it's not even that Universal within the Western World and uh other European countries have their own here I mean France has to goal the Germans don't cuz you know you can't use Hitler as a model because of what what he did uh but by and large you know and also in quite a few parts of Eastern Europe people are discovering old fascists who fought against uh uh the West in the second world war their statues are being rected etc etc it's a very strange transitional atmosphere I don't think it would last long but it might be 40 another 30 or 40 years before we see changes and then the world itself itself has changed you know uh China major part playing a very big role in frightening the United States that they might be overtaken the new gold war that they started against China and they undecided on that they say St thingss they suddenly uh try and provoke the Chinese the Chinese till now I they started rebling thank God for an alter they didn't reply to the US now they've started replying and asserting themselves and that has divided the the the rulers of the United States one day they go and apologize uh uh the second day they attack them again they themselves don't know don't know what they what they're up to uh there's a sense reading this book that you are not only documenting the era of Churchill but also essentially the last Decades of the British Empire this this Empire that is in Decline and desperately trying to hold on to what it can um and its colonies and uh at home in Ireland uh and looking to the the world that exists today and and people fighting over the soul of British history whether it was it was a great Empire was it with was a terrible one um and with what's happening in the US now and the fears in the US about whether it is or is it in its own decline um how do you see the the situation now and and and going forward you know are we are we just in a historical Loop um where people are are repeating the same mistakes over and over again are we going to see a similar sad and violent end to to an American Empire look I am in a minority on this because many people Progressive people engaging too much vual thinking they say that the Americans are on their nlets this American declinism has been a big subject to debate both within the academy and amongst Think Tank well obviously the United States is not as powerful ideologically um as it was immediately after the second world war in the 40s and 50s to a certain extent but the fact remains the same that there is no power capable of challenging capitalism on this globe the Chinese have become very strong is because they manag successfully to create a state capitalism which they control they don't give it total freedom to do what it wants but that's how they grew and that has made the Americans nervous but let me just give you one example China is like Victorian Britain you know the workshop of the world virally everything the sees produced in China but all the top equipment the necessary equipment the spare parts which are needed uh in the present World technologically are still dominated by the United States so even economically they they haven't declined as much as some people would like to think militarily they most powerful country in the world I mean the Chinese can't compete with them and I hope they don't was it need know damage their own resources um but the United States military spending is higher than the next eight countries put together yeah so you can't talk about the CL my fear is that the Americans would rather destroy destroyed the world then give up their hegemony their privileges Etc uh M people used to say after the Americans were defeated in Vietnam in 75 this is the end of the American Empire and even though we were very happy they were defeated we said there not end after Afghanistan people said they won't intervene anywhere well they're intervening in Europe now and trying to shore up this uh slight ly strange regime which is composed of Ukrainian nationalists Ukrainian fists and zelinsky who used as I mean propagandist globally so it's not um it's not correct to say that the United States is on the path of inevitable decline the British war it's funeral it's a continent North America is a and Britain was a tiny Island it has its own resources uh it has produced and I I say this as a Critic of the American Empire I mean the fact that the uh biggest and most important Discovery technologically over the last decades uh the web the worldwide web was produced on the west coast of the United States and not the west coast of of China speaks for itself so we're stuck with him for for the time I fear so and the only way in my opinion is to resist but you know I return to Palestine this upsets me more than even I could imagine just people children being targeted children being killed the humiliation of the Palestinians hardly covered in the mainstream press uh it it is a sign of how powerful the United States are this is not Israel by the way I mean they of course carry out this stuff and it's their you know way of uh exercising uh and running the occupation of Palestine but without the United if the United States were to say to the Israelis B away from all the occupied territories are we're going to cut off we're going to sanction you like they do with any other country it wouldn't be long before the Israelis began to view the pressure what happens in Israel and what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is supported fully by the United States so uh one you know shouldn't underestimate their their impact at all finally uh TOA do you have any uh words of advice to younger writers younger activists people that are wanting to really challenge the the narratives of Empire as as they exist today yeah my advice is do it you know sometimes it might affect your career adversely if you're in the academies because they're tightening up now what academics can write and what they can't write and what they can speak and I mean University professors are being sacked from British universities for talking about pales there's a famous case in Bristol going on even as we speak what is this and this has to be resisted and uh resisted in open openly resist it with a clear language don't try and cover it up by conceptualizing it to such should degree that what you're trying to stay can't be understood by anyone you know that that can happen and has happened so my advice is resist you know intellectual resistance cultural resistance hey when you try and resist peacefully like through the um BDS movement they want to they pass laws now to stop that happening so a peaceful opposition to Israel gy is not permitted what do they want to push people to become individual terrorists and new feet some that's how they they're behaving and acting but so my advice is use your brains use your pens use your computers to fight this sort of appalling uh sickness uh that that we witness every T it's been an absolute pleasure thank you much for being with us thank you very much thank you for watching this episode of the big picture and a big thank you to Our Guest today Tark Ali we want to hear what you have to say about Winston Churchill about Britain and its history and about the current climate that we are seeing happening in gazda so please leave your thoughts in the comments below and let us know who you'd like us to speak to next as always you can find all of our episodes an audio format wherever you get your podcast from and until next time Salam [Music] [Music]

Channel: Middle East Eye

Views: 123,892

Keywords: middle east eye, mee, mee news, news, middle east eye news, the big picture, the big picture podcast, tariq ali, tariq ali middle east eye, winston churchill, british history, british empire, churchill, bengal famine, mau mau rebelion, nakba, palestine, history, podcast, world war 2, ww2, wwii, third reich

Id: rbsfynApnVg

Length: 56min 51sec (3411 seconds)

Published: Thu May 16 2024