Peter Hitchens and Tariq Ali on Castro's legacy - BBC Newsnight

Pizza do you think that are just just picking up from that kind of revolutionary in the Hills do you think that did shape the kind of romantic love for the man in the years old people wanted to believe it much of it was a myth from the start Batista was really overthrown by the Americans who were through armed supplies from him and then told him quite clearly that he had to quit and engineered what was effectively a military push against him Castro said he moved into the vacuum that was left by Batista's collapse and the interesting thing about that is had pitifully small Castro's band of of guerrillas turns out to have been and we had we now have actual warrant for that and yet he uses expressions such as Moses coming down from the mountain like what comes over the place that's the debutante swooning over a big hairy man that why do people want to swoon over over but he was a young guy an idiot well okay but that's it's it's it's just one of those strange things which people seem to want a terrace I believe in in great leaders and great men you were a swoon weren't you you definitely Spooner can I read you some stuff you put a letter your your name to a letter in the Guardian about eleven years ago there has been not a single case of disappearance torture or extrajudicial execution since 1959 in Cuba dude is that really true those are the figures we obtained before I sign that letter but instead of instead of starting on that why don't we start with what Cuba was before the Revolution it was effectively in American brothel run by the Mafia seen as an American colony and the Cuban revolutionaries partially because the Americans withdrew support from the dictator organized more and more support it wasn't just 200 people the July the 26th movement became a huge mass movement and got rid of that and the reason for the support Castro enjoyed was largely because people didn't want to go back being what they were an American colony so that is the key thing to understand like all revolutions they kill the one king and then they have to build something into place if we're judging whether they built something good in it to become a Soviet colony and none of them had any idea that was going to happen Castro pretended or genuinely said and we still don't really know what the truth is that he wasn't a communist and that and that he wasn't going to do this and yet very very quickly they became a Soviet colony and they became a Soviet colony in which opposition to Castro was treated with the most extremely brutality it may be that that people that didn't officially disappear but I have to say they were certainly tortured he were masses who was one of Castro's original comrades in and very much a strong opponent of Batista when he said to Castro I don't support your turn towards Soviet Communism Castro threw him into prison for twenty years sixteen of them in solitary confinement and arranged for him to be tortured massaged his own account of the finish there because the torturous use here matthos his own account of this says that he his genitals were pierced during his imprisonment now that's if that's not torture I don't know what is did do you accept broadly that it was awful the Lord's extended solitary confinement denial of medical care to seek peaceful summary trials labor camps gay people sent for re-education to counsel who hang on one at a time right listen together we don't know I don't deny that and I think the way gay people were treated was appalling and I think the way in which political prisoners at that time were treated was not the great one either but but Mike Pence did that in the United States you know if Mike Pence in Indiana had been sending me you would be the first complaining and protesting venture and saying this man is a monster yeah but I would also see which side I'm oh I'm not only yes of course yes i I was on the side and am on the side of what the best things that revolution has done I don't deny that at all of course it's not flawless they made a huge number of mistakes and they many of them admit it and it wasn't of they never pretended they were a democracy it was essentially a revolutionary dictatorship I would say that these dictatorships are social dictatorships which do a great deal for their people on health on education well people say look here here's here's first of all Castro did talk about representative democracy when he did when we first came in the early life and then he's simply I think you said he was an elected president one word but he so he did say that he didn't make problems yes that God most people believe that he would be actually running a freer government liberties to govern in fact it was worse than that I don't think Terry guilty you're doing over torture he was not worse than that if they could had been worse than that he would have been toppled and when the Americans invaded him at the Bay of Pigs why wasn't there mass uprising which the Cuban emigrated promised the Americans the no matter price there's a huge difference between between being discontented by region taking part in the mass uprising the point about you talk is you're at you're an intelligent generous thoughtful person with a sense of humor and a sense of proportion but you will not make the step of saying look whatever good this regime may or may not have done I have to say it's questionable whether it did any good at all you don't believe it did any good I say it's question whether I haven't finished I haven't finished the question I was going to ask you as you were very precise same thing though it the actions of Castro towards his opposition were indefensible torture of forcing people to eat their own excrement that is looking like 20 years for disagreeing with him that was terrible there were times of civilized but I'm too because but Pinochet did a lot of those things and you notice a wolf the whole his foxy won't be no show you have 30,000 people for God's sake how can you compare P no no problem but why did you mention because it's about about which will which government supported be no sure but is it because it's the side you're on the dictates you're willing to forgive all the stuff that I've been saying that the Cuban Revolution people who say the same about finishes in willing manner why develop people say exactly even Pinochet's admirers don't say the same things about him by the way they now accept what he did in Chile is doing what it's doing to obliterate that legacy which was backed by the West but why can't you can you touch the record times this enormous rage you get into about Pinochet is killing but what about Castro's Jew dish murders the show trials the shootings that repeated firing squads at the LA cabaña during the first months of his his time in power also emails on us would give us having the idea has made a revolution Tarek the Cubans made a revolution the Americans tried to stop it the Americans punish them for nationalizing all the big American companies and liberating their country socially and economically that they made mistakes we know but you know the mistakes made by people few dictators in South America and elsewhere he back backed by the United States but you use the word mistakes were made in a sort of passive way these were things that were worse than anything the United States look the worst of anything listen yet the worst of anything recently be has been the torture at Guantanamo which is based in Cuba and that torture has been carried out by who but you know I'm just said you can't abuse if that as an argument if the question the point is you objecting to it quite rightly yeah because quite right I object to as I don't you object to all torture but you don't actually seem to object to half so much when Castro no I objected seems ties no this is not respect I object to it but I say when discussing an open revolution when discussing the Cuban Revolution one has to discuss a great deal and not be completely captured by ideologies that anything is excuses torture no well then a then wide whiteness use why does that's usually when Castro does really need to leave there gents thanks both very much

Channel: BBC Newsnight

Views: 242,409

Keywords: bbc, newsnight, news, interview, fidel castro, castro, peter hitchens, peter hitchins, tariq ali, cuba, left, right, debate, legacy

Id: WfA7BZDRtug

Length: 8min 15sec (495 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 29 2016