The Undertaker on his Best Matches, Vince McMahon and the Attitude Era | The Bill Simmons Podcast

all right making history here I've been doing podcast for 13 years have never had a dead man on the podcast but now here he is the Undertaker how are you I'm doing good and if you live to tell about it you'll be doing even better I guess have you ever done a podcast before you know what just just since this doc has come out but never yeah I've always voiced I just you know the character always come first in my book so there's a lot of things that I had to I had to say no to just because I didn't feel like it worked you know for what I was trying to do on TV and you know it for all those years it just you know you can't see this part of me and then me go out and then do the other guy write a connection so yeah I've probably done more media and more things in the last two weeks than I have and I would say my whole career but it's probably close yeah well you have the last ride which there's two episodes up right now in the WWE Network and I had no idea this was happening I had no idea it was gonna be this this honest and this behind-the-scenes cuz as you just said you've been meticulous about never showing that side what made you decide cuz this goes back basically to 2017 right what made you decide you wanted to start documenting this and kind of cross that that fourth wall well it started out with at that WrestleMania in 17 yeah I thought that was it and because I had been so protective I just thought I didn't know we didn't start out with the idea of making a documentary I just wanted that footage of those last few days around what I thought was going to be my last WrestleMania right I didn't know what we were gonna do with it but I wanted it and I knew at some part you know at some point it would probably come in and we would do something I had no idea it would be at the scale that it's turned out to be because obviously after that WrestleMania and then it just it kind of continued on and the next thing you know we're three years down the road and we've got all this footage and and yeah that's kind of how it came about it wasn't it wasn't designed to be a docu-series it was kind of just I wonder document those those last few days of me being around the business and it really it really blew up into a three-year project you should have known as a wrestling guy wrestling and boxing nobody ever officially retires you think you think you're retiring but you just never know people come back you know pull right back in so no you never say never you never say never in this in this business and you know that's that is a parallel between boxing and wrestling is just like you just never know well I don't want to spoil part one too much because part what I was not only riveted like I was really into it I thought it was excellent thank you you know as somebody who really cares about the form and you know a lot of the times when people do these they become basically infomercials I call him doc Emer shalls' and that was way deeper than that way more honest that one of the things I didn't realize was how disappointed you were with that WrestleMania match in 2017 and you're going against Roman reigns it's this big moment for him you know and the company had been building and building him and this was you know supposed to be the exclamation point for here he is he's arrived he is our new guy and you felt like you let him down which I I never knew any of that story why did you feel like you let him down well my hip was so bad going in it into that match you know I just I couldn't I couldn't perform at a level that I wanted to perform at and then with the the magnitude of trying to you know I was gonna put Rome over and you know that was going to be a big launching pad for him so obviously I wanted to perform you know I wanted that to be like okay this is the you know this is the slingshot and I just didn't have it you know did you know as it was going on I knew it yeah I mean yes what started I knew it I was going to be in trouble at the Royal Rumble in January before it bad you know if you go back and look at the footage I mean you can tell like I'm just not in in the shape that I should be in you know I couldn't train the way I wanted to train but I'd already committed to doing it and so because I mean you know I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place and you know passing the torch is a really big thing in our industry and he's you know he's a really good dude he just he deserved it and I just wanted to be able to give the best to him that I could knowing what that match was gonna mean to his career and then you know when I couldn't deliver for him you know yeah that that kind of stuff bothers me and when you're leaving the ring after that and in that that that match famously you left your stuff in the middle of the ring and you walked off you did the you held the fist up but then you go backstage and you have all these different people greeting you applauding hugging you saying good match are you reading their reactions to see how genuine it is and be like oh man did I know this didn't go well I can tell from the looks in their eyes yeah I don't think it was so much as it was a good match I think everyone kind of knew that that was the end yeah it was I think it was kind of over the body of work and and they appreciation it definitely wasn't for that match I mean right you know that match felt you know anybody must be honest I mean yeah it fell way short of the expectations but I think it was more so a respect thing for all the 27 years prior and and everything more so you know and then knowing excu it was grown men grown you know Tufts got men that were you know had tears in her eyes you know we put the Hat and the coat and everything down you know no one expected that no one knew what was cannot no one knew what was happening so it was it was so organic and yeah it kind of really caught a lot of people off-guard and sorry about that anyway so yeah I think that I think the the applause and in the greetings everything or more so for the body of ceremonia yeah the match yeah well it's interesting cuz in part two you show the 2018 match against Cena and you had had hip surgery at that point but you're also in way better shape and and you can see it in the match like it looks like you're 25 pounds lighter obviously because you were able to work out but yeah you're moving around so much better and and at that point you go in in part one you talk about you know basically you're wrestling once a year right and you have to spend 3-4 months getting ready for this one match and then three four months after just recovering from the match what when you talk about like getting ready for the match how do you get your body ready when your body just hasn't been taking those bumps and those hits and all that stuff just to take it for 25 minutes yeah I mean it's it's tough you know and then it was it was a lot easier obviously you see in part two that I actually you know had a ring come down to hear it down here to Texas which for the past four the you know I would go to Orlando a little bit but I have to be judicious and how much you know how much trauma I take just because it set me back it would set me back in my training yeah you know as crazy as all that sounds and then what happens like when you can't take bumps and you can't you know you can't put your body through that then it's and then it's really tough on the back side of that match now you can get through the mat but man that say what that but you're my body would like literally shut down after a you know after a Wrestlemania match just just from the just from the trauma that's the that's the best thing about being able to work you know all the time is that your body stays conditioned and for the for the trial AMA that it has to take and they're specially being WrestleMania you know where everything's let everything's let go I mean I mean that's our biggest deal so everybody you know they don't they don't put any stops on anything they just go and you know everybody wants to have that you know those big time moments and so the body not being conditioned for that is you know it's it's pretty brutal that's what I was so disappointed you know because I had all that time in the ring I was you know I was in the ring sparring and and and going over stuff every other day and then you know we get to I get to New Orleans and they spill about five minutes right because I'm ready to go I was ready to go for 45 minutes that's quite rain and a 45 minute pace because I was I had was so dead-set like I was so disappointed from the prior year that like I'm gonna you know I'm gonna tear this up and I am gonna go at a pace probably faster than what people normally see me go at I'm gonna do things that I haven't done in a long time and you know I was so I was so prepared and then you know it was five minutes and you know I say it I say it in there you know we saw well you know we sell our taemin we don't sell time and it was that was more of a kind of a selfish thing for me like I wanted to show like you know what you saw last year is not where I'm at and right and so well it seems like you know football players talked about it the same way where they need to almost condition their bodies to the punishment and if they don't have that to you know six to eight weeks two months whatever it is of the preseason just to hit the [ __ ] out of each other right then when you get into a game it's almost like your body can't handle it it's weird to think of the concept of conditioning your body for punishment but I think wrestling and football are probably the two best examples of it right I think so and then you know even you know that's why you spar too when you from boxers spar yes you know it's also to toughen up there the skin on you know their face they don't get cut mmm right you know so well you have to you just can't and especially as you get older you have to you have to figure that into so I you know I have to train 10 times as hard now for half the results and you know I kind of think that's what happened in the in the match with Lesnar at mania when I got concussed so severely that we're you know I just couldn't I was like I had to figure out okay am I gonna be condemned I gonna be cardiovascular condition or am I gonna be conditioned for trauma you know I had to pick one or the other because I was just so beat up that I couldn't you know I couldn't get in there and take a lot of bumps and I was like well you know it's one night uh uh you know I'll be able to endure whatever and I think it kind of caught up with me that year right cuz most guys aren't able to throw me around you know like Brock could you know he gave me all those German suplexes and uh you know bumps that most people don't can't give me so you know there was nothing that he did that was on city I just I don't think my body was conditioned for the trauma and VSO seems like the least fun person to get into the ring with I would guess you know what I actually you know I actually enjoyed you know do my you know his first time Aaron when he came back I ain't I mean he's it's it's there man I mean that's I mean like so - physically so ridiculous the the burden of even just the German suplexes like yeah I can't imagine like he's doing like five six in a row you gotta feel like feel like a rag doll yeah it's gonna be one of those nights yeah but you know that's the game you know it's not ballet and at you know some nights you know you're the one that's giving them some night you're the one getting it so it all works out but I didn't realize until I watched this show that you have no recollection of that match cuz I would say that's the most famous match of this decade it's certainly the most one of the most surreal wrestling matches ever where you know you have this you're think you're twenty know at that point and you just assumed you're never losing right and the sound in the arena when it actually happened I don't think that's ever been replicated in wrestling yeah I know it was from what I think watching it back I mean it was it was like well yeah well the air got taken out of the arena yeah I think when Bruno Sammartino finally lost in the mid-70s when he'd had the title for like eight years everyone says that it was the same kind of sound then where people were just like they just couldn't believe it and then they got pissed yeah but it was like 10 seconds of like just complete disbelief but was that I had heard two different versions of this where were you supposed to lose that match yeah okay yeah cuz I didn't know if they got audible because you were so compromised at some point what they had the link shifted no one knew I mean I guess well they knew but you know they were like uh you know Brock I think got like he got hyper nervous about it you could tell I mean maybe for the casual fan you couldn't tell but I mean anybody that is in on our business or follows our business pretty intently you can you can tell that I'm really lethargic and and I'm moving kind of slow I thought you got concussed watching it eight cuz you didn't seem right and yeah every single moment when even when you're trying to get up it just was so delayed and it was like this doesn't feel like a performance it feels like something's wrong yeah and it was and I said you you know the answer you got my memory of that day stops at about 3:30 now afternoon that's my last memory I have of that day and my wife had come backstage you know she normally does before you know I really started getting ready to you know start going through my process and you know I told her you know what was gonna happen and calmed her down yeah and that was it and then you know I said my process of getting ready for a match is you know there's there's a stretching and then in the heat and the seeing the doctors and everything else that I have to do which I did all of it but I couldn't I don't remember doing any of that I had no recollection of match you know it was four o'clock in the morning before I knew what my name was how long how long after that match did you feel okay how long did it take it took so we I got out of the hospital went back to the to the hotel for a few hours and then I own my bus and we came back to Texas and I basically stayed in in my room in the dark for nearly two weeks laughs yeah it was and I've been concussed before but never to that never to that net level I've never had like the the lingering headache and the sensitivity to light all that that had never happened at you know to that extreme before so it was uh yeah it was strained and then not being able to remember you know I've been you know I've been concussed like I said a few times and you know you finished been able to finish the match and then know exactly when it happened and but not that time no and you don't even you watch the match you don't even know when it happened right but okay I've watched that matches closely I mean in it apart I just can't tell you know I'm because there sees there's nothing that that really said you're like okay sometimes you can tell by the way your head hits something or you know you okay there it is but I mean I've watched it back and I just cannot pinpoint where it happened well the irony is I guess I could kind of get in the area because I could tell by the way you know my body language and and my pacing and everything kind of stops but there's nothing that that says okay that should have caused a concussion the irony is it's one of the most famous passing the torch matches because that was the I mean Lesnar's one of the most important guys of the past decade that was the match that cement today and it's not not different than you know Hulk was the biggest star in the world when he wrestled Andre but today and Andre was was such a big deal it put him at a whole other level cuz nobody beat Andre Roy I know the same thing with you and I and I really feel like I don't even I think those are probably the only two matches like that I don't can you think of another match like that where was that much significance not not really you know and I remember you know I I remember I remember Hogan beating Andre and dislike I was you know you kind of from from where the industry was at the time you you know you still think that's still that's Andre you know yeah and but you know hope you know Hulk was getting that super mega push and was the you know the face of wrestling but you still you know for guys it had followed Andres like still Andre giant who you know how they gonna do this you know and when it happened you're like wow okay it's it's great it was the same thing you know with with with Brock you know people were just like you know a lot of people were a lot of people were upset about it and you know a lot of people felt like he didn't need it he could've done you know it could have been somebody else but yeah this is his business you didn't even realize the streak was the thing with WrestleMania in tow what like eight nine ten I think you I was I think it was with going into ten or so I think it was Flair and Toronto is at the to that you know I hold up the fingers and you know I counted him out but before you know somebody I think was that year that someone said you know you're undefeated right I like really I hadn't a clue I mean we were so just in the groove and 300 days a year and you don't even think about you at that time you know you know you don't think about your win-loss record all that right and then it kind of then it took on a life of its own like okay well we got you know that's just unheard of to be you know 10ml WrestleMania and then well I think it which 21 which 21 before Brock that's right 21 yeah yeah yeah I remember when it hit double figures just wondering just as a wrestling fan just being like I wonder if they'll just like how long they'll keep this going because part of the problem with wrestling is you know it when it gets into trouble it's when they just kind of don't stick with something yep you know and they get they get hasty or they're like oh [ __ ] we need something to happen and then all of a sudden they've put eight nine months into a storyline or eight even eight nine years and then they'll just get rid of it in a weekend I never did that with the WrestleMania streak which I always thought was impressive well there yeah there were some I I guess there were some creative meetings that it came up about various different people beating the streak and and I think it was one of those rare occasions where a lot of people kind of dislike this you can't do that it's this not you know we have something here because you know there was the whoever the main event was and then there was whoever taker was been aggressively you know who was gonna try and get the street that year a double main event it was it was a double main event and you know fortunately a lot of guys like if they didn't win you know if they didn't win the the Chamber which the Chamber match automatically guarantees you a title shot you know the consolation prize was not that bad you know right to go against you know get take her and try go after the streak so what was the best one in your opinion what's that what's what was the peak what was the peak WrestleMania Matt I have my own personal pick but I'm interested to see if it jabs of the years uh it would have man I tell you what and I talk about that like there's those form the four matches the two matches I had was Sean followed by the two with Triple H because that was just like if you if you look at it it's one continual story yeah I you know with me and Sean we had kind of our Heaven and Hell match which you know I'm I've never been one to say okay you know this is this is a great match that that match was his damn near as good as it gets then I'll play up against I'll put it up against about anything I mean it was just everything clicked and and match was was just phenomenal and I had such a good chemistry with Sean and then came back the following year because he was ready to retire so you know there you have that match which Russa I mean that was a ton of pressure who's you know you got Shawn Michaels last match it's a little bit of pressure in that especially being in WrestleMania ran those two matches were really good and then we got to follow that up with okay well Shawn Michaels best friends gonna step in and you know he's gonna try and take me out for what I did do it was just really really proud of those those four matches but the first Shawn match was probably probably the best match I think I've ever had yeah it's interesting I would say the first Shawn match was probably a little bit better but the second the second one was the more emotional one oh yeah it was like from if you if you're working in all the stuff that makes professional wrestling what it is the second match is probably yeah probably what elements to it that's what I try to tell people all the time and then I talk to you know I talk to young wrestlers are what we do is is athletics storytelling and that's that's the key to getting people hooked and and and that's kind of the disconnect with with our product now is everybody thinks it's all about the athleticism and the things that they do in the ring but it's the storytelling that gets people hooked and right you know the the and these are really organic moments that happen like you know the handshake into the hug with Sean after you know after he had just lost and his you know career he lost his career and then at the end of the hell of the sell against Triple H where Sean was the referee when we went up to the top to stay all three of us walked out of there together that wasn't planned that's all that was all organic stuff ya know it was just like you know what this is probably gonna be the last chance for this era to be you know doing it together and it was it was just you know it was just something that happened and you know I have a I have a poster of that of the three of us standing up there it's above the door to my gym here at the house and I see it all the time and I just you know I can't happen look at it and feel proud but because I guess that those were you know those four matches were just I thought in my opinion like they were storytelling at its best and and it's hard to do in this day and age to take something for four years as much content as much exposure as we get to be able to do that it's okay I'm really proud of those you know you might have a different answer for this but I thought Sean was the guy that messed with you the best cuz you guys were so different and the things you were good at the things he were good at and he was good at it you know the best quality he had was he's on the shortlist of being able to sell the other guy and punishment and you were on the short list of guys who just seemed the most physically imposing who could dish out the most punishment and it just I thought it was a perfect match it was interesting to hear you in the in the documentary series in 2017 or 18 and you're talking about AJ Styles and you're saying man I'd love to work with that guy it was kind of very Sean s but then you finally end up and doing the WrestleMania match with him this year and it was a little reminisce and I were right it was like almost a Shawn back yeah it really was and and that I think that was it's funny it's funny how the cameras caught it all this stuff once again there was no plans for any kind of AJ Styles match or right angle or anything that was just the cameras catching me talking about whatever I was talking about and he was a monitor and that and just came to like man I wish I had you know because at that point even then I was like Merrill if I had and I would you know had enough gas in the tank left to really make that match work so I didn't even what are you thinking about it what me on the radar and that was just an honest like man and I would love to work with him because I think you know he's probably the best out there today AJ is you know right and then lo and behold it comes around and then but yes to answer your questions AJ was is probably the closest to Shawn that I you know there's been you know he's he's under sized but you don't he has that ability there's only been a few people like like Sean and Eddie Guerrero AJ you really you don't see like the size despaired besides disparity because that's how good they are right you know and they understand okay I'm working with this this giant dude you know I'm gonna get thrown around I'm gonna get hammered but I'm gonna get my spot I'm gonna get my my spots in here and I'm gonna take advantage of them the best I can they understood that and you know that's why they're so good and that's why they can work with anybody and I've always preferred like I think my best man just guys like Bret Hart Kurt Angle and Eddie Guerrero and Shawn you know my best matches were smaller guys right that got it that understood and you know and you know when you work you know two big guys like you know it's it's a it's a slugfest and you do the same kind of things and it's like you said like Shawn you know he had his style and my style and they just happened to mesh really really well we're ever worried about with with those smaller guys actually like legitimately hurting them because you know you're throwing them around like a rag doll like I had how do you how do you make sure it doesn't go too far well I mean you know you know we don't I don't think wrestlers get enough credit for how actually physically you know how physically tough you have yeah beat you know everybody has you know everybody has their ID is and their preconceived ideas about what professional wrestling sports entertainment is and you know there's you know you can get people into an argument quicker than a dame like you know put put an MMA fan and against you know a professional wrestling fan that's all crap yeah you know and when I was young that used to bother me you know as I've gotten older I was like yeah I got I got 20 surgeries that says you know this is it you know this isn't easy stuff but yeah you know it's physical with them but you just being professional and being safe you know I mean in wrestling and whatnot a lot of people really don't understand you're always just one or two inches away from something being really catastrophic yeah you know I mean you and it's happened you know it's happened yeah exactly I mean and then when you think about these guys on the road 300 dates a year now so you started Quay ting all that all of all those bumps and all the you know and then back in the day he worked all the time whether you're hurt you weren't hurt you know you're trying to protect something that's hurt and that's how you end up getting hurt even worse you know but it's you know I was always yeah I mean you took some abuse with me but you know I was safe I wouldn't you know I didn't throw somebody down so that they were going to land on their neck or they were they were bad land awkward they were gonna land hard but they were going to land flat never say so I mean I kind of prided myself on being you know as safe as I could who's violent as I was so are you know one of the greatest athletic things I've ever seen was in the late 90s when WrestleMania was in Boston and Sean had that match where Mike Tyson was the guest referee oh yeah but his back was all [ __ ] up oh you wrestled anyway and then and he got through it the match ended and then Triple H literally had to like carry him backstage like he couldn't walk and this was after the lights have gone out it was the last match and they weren't doing it for the fans the thing was over and and we were kind of staying watching it cuz I was there and it was like oh he's he's really hurt yeah that he couldn't even get backstage and then we didn't see him again for I don't even remember when he came back but it was definitely no sure yeah it uh but he just none of us had any idea until he left the ring it was like oh my god how much pain was that dude in yeah yeah yeah serious back yeah I think it was just something he had going on but yeah so let's see great when uh you show up in WWE in 1990 and Ric Flair is there at some point in the early 90s but he's at a different phase of his career at this point right but still he's the other guy people mentioned when they talk about the great the great workers who could sell everybody did he when you worked with him what stage of his career was he at that point well that's that's what really so I worked with him a little bit when I was when I was in WCW not much there's some house show stuff and then his first time in to WWE most still WWF back then I got to work a few house shows winning but it wasn't really and I got the the year that I worked at WrestleMania against Rick you know Vince came up to me when it was hit late you know it was getting late and I didn't have an opponent and Vince was like man I'm really sorry you know I just you know we got this going on and that going on and I completely you know I wish I must say he forgot about me but I was down on the depth chart at the time and yeah he felt bad so he gave me the option of two guys he said these are the you know you can work with this guy or you can work with Rick and I said I'm Rick flair are you kidding me yeah this looked at me you know he was like like really he was he was shocked that I didn't want to work with the other guy I was like this a no brainer I want to work with flair you know so Flair's just coming back after being in WCW and getting treated you know you know they just really misused and mistreated him down there and so you know it was it was uh you know he thanked me he thanked me after the WrestleMania match for he says you've restored my confidence in myself Wow yeah it was I was like you know it took me a while to figure it out what he meant but I was shocked like cuz it you know I'm like you I mean dude you're your Ric Flair right that was everybody was the go he was the go right and I was just blown away that you know that his confidence was so low and you know he talks about it a little bit in his documentary but I was I mean it was just it was such an honor for me to be in the ring especially in WrestleMania against you know against Nature Boy I mean I was I was like a kid to candy store right what kind of what kind of athlete were you in high school been a good athlete I was a basketball player and you know I had some pretty good hops I could get up a little bit we like a power forward were you liking it we post up guy what were you my true position would have been a would have been would have been a four but I ended up to play the post most of time there's even back then I was a I was bigger you know I wasn't big like I was I got into wrestling but for a basketball player you know in the in the late 80s you know I was 200 pounds and especially in high school that was that was pretty big back then yeah and then you know then played when I played in ecology and I got up to about to 35 to 40 and you know yeah I looked like I was kinda like I was like the like car Malone I guess you know how big he was but I see it's funny like I'll see pictures of you know back then and I'm like man I look like I look like a giant walking stick yeah so so used to be a now over 300 pounds for all these years was like people just call me babe but but yeah helpful for you know you know I was that kid like I think I would have probably had better scholarship offers if I had a plate check playing football tight end yeah but you know I was just like everybody said you got to go play football right you know the other way kind of March tomorrow you know the beat of my own drum so Wow but I remember when you showed up in WWE and it's funny cuz I made a cat it was 30 years ago but it when you were doing some of the stuff at your size it just hadn't happened before you know the big guys from the 80s were the Hogan types it was like clothesline leg drop stuff like that right and you're doing you're walking along the ring ropes and day and it was like what is happening where'd this guy come from because I didn't follow WCW at that point you'd only been there for a couple years anyway he showed up and it was like an immediate impact yeah that was when I you know when I got into the business and I looked at the product I was like and I had the same take away as you did like you know all the big guys they don't you know they don't do a whole lot so you know I said okay well you're you know you know I'm pretty athletic so and I was fortunate enough to work with Don Jardine a lot when I first broke in the business John Dardenne Jardine was the spoiler wore masks but he was the first one that I'd ever seen do the well it's called old school now but you know he would take a guy and walk the ropes I was just blown away by Jardine was about 65 yeah and I was like okay well as soon as he's as soon as he's gone for is as soon as he retires I said that's mine yeah and so so that's like okay I'm gonna do things I'm gonna do things that people aren't used to seeing guys my size do and it took me a while once I got to WWII had I had the full in the reins a little bit because it didn't it didn't necessarily work doing that stuff all the time as the Undertaker right when I when I worked you know I would work I would work really really slow and you know and I would stalk and I would you know and then all of a sudden bang I would do something and hit a big flying clothesline or do something wrong people would be like what just happened you know so it took me a while to figure out how to put all that stuff in and still makes it and let the character you know do what it was supposed to do so did you create the character did you co-create it with van sir how did that work when you got the WWE so Vince it was Vince's creation and he he had it and I guess he had had it for a while he just never had the the right guy and obviously he was waiting for a big guy with no personality Bob so yeah so he he give it to me and he called me brought me up to Stanford showed me the you know the storyboards of what is you know what his brainchild was there and and I was like okay you know we'll see and then I just kind of started studying like okay what is this guy you know what is what is this Undertaker so you know I start studying like Michael Myers Freddy Krueger or information or he's and and then trying to figure out and then man I picked I picked Jake the snake's brain all the time you know so wrestling until his intelligence for business was just second to none especially with dark characters yes I mean so you know really got a lot of really nice insight from from Jake and then you know as it has it kind of progressed and and Vince knew that he could trust me you know then I would come to him and say look I want to do this with a character you know I think I need to move in this direction and and unfortunately you know our working relationship you know it it was what it was and he let me kind of tweak and change the character as I felt like it needed to be when did you feel what was the moment that you remember when you said like what match was it when you were like oh this is this is happening this is gonna be this is gonna be my thing I I see the roadmap now to real success here yeah that was probably it's probably one of the first guys that I got to work with or you know my big angle was with the ultra warrior yeah yeah that time you know warrior and Hogan were kind of you know they were kind of on the same plane as far as who the top you know who the truck top draw was and back then we would run you know we would run two different towns a night sometimes even three and so warrior and I would would headline one of the towns and then Hogan and whoever he was working with headline another town somewhere else and I think I knew I had kind of arrived we did a segment it was pallbearers funeral parlor and he was interviewing he was interviewing warrior and I come out of a casket a stand up coffin lock warrior into the you know I lock him in the casket beats casket all up and just from the reactions ever asset okay yeah we're here i man yeah we're with this is this is strong just you know you could just tell by the reactions the people like okay we got them and we you know we were off and running and you were like I will be this guy for the next 30 years I can feel it in my bones [Laughter] [Music] and a longevity you so you're taking off with WWE that was WWF then became double w but during a really weird time for the company where it's kind of the post ye of the 80s you have the height of Hogan right the Friday night main event all this great stuff and then it hits the early 90s and things start flipping and we get to the 95-96 range also W WCW is stealing poaching guys and they have all the momentum and the guys are fleeing to WCW left and right and you were the one guy who stayed but at that point it sounds like from everything I've ever read you were like the leader behind the scenes you were like the guy ever every who WWE WWC w whoever there's always that one guy who's kind of run in the locker room when did you become that guy what year when was it I guess it was it was it was somewhere in that in that era I'm probably probably a little before you know what we were getting our butts kicked I mean ratings wise you know everything we were just getting hammered and you know it's just like the guys that stayed or the guys that were still there we just like big ourselves out of this and you know it's good I always knew it would you know it was we would come back out on top but yeah it was just gonna be how long it took and you know how bad it was gonna have to get before big changes were made but it you know that was something else they I mean it just kind of happened it was like the way I looked at things you know and people ask me why didn't you you know why didn't you jump ship when you could have been it's like well one those guys down there told me before I went to before I had you know before I went to WWE WWF at the time you know they said I went in to renegotiate a contract right I'd been there about a year and my contract was coming too so I go in and meet with Jim herd who was running he was running at WCW at the time Olli Anderson Jim Barnett and I'm looking for just a little bit of a bump you know just a little bump in pay I'm still you know I'm still really simply you know green I've only been around for a few years and so I'm just looking for some I'm just looking for a little extra cheese right yeah we go no I don't think so so we're gonna resign you at your current deal and you go they go look no one's ever gonna pay money to see you wrestled you're you're a good athlete you're a really good athlete but nobody's gonna ever pay money to see wrestle like oh okay okay that stung a little bit and then say you're never going back after that yeah once I left and and all Vince ever does and he gives you an opportunity he doesn't promise you like man I'm gonna make you this I'm gonna make you that he says I'm gonna give you an opportunity to do something and that's what he did with me he gave me an opportunity to to you know be a success in this industry I was like hey he believed in me he gave me a Trinity that's all I needed so when did he become the leader when she become the leader of the locker room then because I'm always fascinated about that dynamics cuz it it's basically like an NBA team or an NFL team or a baseball team you've dozens of wrestlers you might have 50 wrestlers in an event you might even have more than that but somebody's kind of has be the alpha dog if somebody's [ __ ] up in the ring if somebody's putting somebody in harm's way if somebody's not following whatever the instructions of that day were there needs to be somebody that kind of puts everybody in place you became that person yeah probably around that 95 96 you know that that time period in there is when it really I guess became you know it became a talking point I mean maybe I was doing it beforehand but you know it's just like to me you know and believe me I had plenty of good times and and you know I burned that midnight oil and everything else but nothing came before business I don't care how late you stayed out the night before yeah or what you did at bill time is go time and you know you don't come in and you know you don't you know you're not gonna be hungover or you're not gonna drag ass because you know you had a you had a pretty good night's night before you know and that's kind of how I think it started and then you know it was just like then just kind of you know people would they trusted me I guess because I had a you know like I had this connection with Vince you know and you'd normally 101 like when you're one of the talent has you know is tight with somebody in the office right now well there's Fuj you know or they're you know okay well there's snitch or not you know I never got that because everybody knew I think I was I was able to I could go and talk with Vince or whoever or whatever agent right you know and then I could also talk to our talent and and and like give them you know my perspective and you know what I had seen you know what I've been through at that time and I think they appreciated the fact that you know I didn't play one side against the other you know but I was a pretty good I was a pretty good spot to start you know like when guys were you know when they had issues or they didn't like the way they would be a book tour they didn't you know they would bounce things off of me or they'd want to know how handle certain situations and you know it just kind of grew from there but I think everyone knew that what if you and I were to have a conversation in the locker room that's where it would stop right you know and if somebody was doing something that they shouldn't be doing they were getting in trouble or you know not paying bar tabs or not doing whatever that needed to you know they knew as soon as I found out they were gonna you know they knew they were gonna get it you know so there was that just that that trust factor and and that you know I was what I said is what I meant and you know I'm not like gonna I'm not gonna go run off and say oh you're not gonna believe what so as those doing you know what sounds like handled it internally most times you know I handle things in the locker room before they ever got to you know before they ever had to go to management was the underlying theme of this like if we're gonna settle this disagreement now and if we don't settle it we're gonna really settle it right now like what was there physical component to it really yeah it was in plastic I never I never presented myself or I never as a bully now I've got people's faces and let them you know but normally I didn't try to if I knew it we might lead to something you know aggressive like that normally I take somebody away from the group yet right makes sense you know baguette at bay it was always like you you always knew something bad was gonna happen if you got like if somebody said hey can I talk to you in the shower you know you had me walk into the shower like looking over your shoulder because you you didn't know if you don't get sucker punched or rammer so if there was somebody you know a lot of times if there was a case where somebody really screwed up you know I'd pull them aside yeah and then say look man this ain't gonna fly you know you can't do this that not all that maybe I would I wouldn't intentionally on more serious issues I wouldn't embarrass people in front of the you know the rest of the guys now there were certain times where that kind of worked you know you kind of as we called it we kind of rip on the square where yeah I'm kind of making this a joke but if you look deep enough into me you know that I'm I'm trying to make light of this before it has to you know before we got to make that trip to the shower you know so what so here's an example so you have Michaels who's been really honest about yeah it was acted like an [ __ ] in the mid and the mid nineties like I definitely was a problem behind the scenes he's talked about it and him and Bret Hart they're doing a whole you know seven eight month thing they're not getting along um and it's just getting more and more contentious is that a situation where you feel like you have to step in and like smooth it over or grab the two of them and be like let's all go to lunch ya know see that time so Brett you know so Brett had more tenure on me yeah well he was at that time especially so there the other certain guys like you know now he's always got along with Brett but but Brett really more of a kind of a quiet leader you know yeah he took the business very seriously and you know that that's kind of the way he led so you know there was you know that part I had to be you know he's a good terrible because I didn't have you know I wasn't there long enough yet to just say hey man you guys need to cut the [ __ ] you know friend yeah wouldn't mind breaking it up but you know there he was I was still you know like I said Brett was more tenured than I was and you know there's that whole respect level with me and and the guys that come before me and but what was your reaction when when everything finally blew up the famous match when when uh Vince Vince basically steals the title from Brett because he's leaving and that turns into a whole thing which basically is the best thing that ever happened to WWE in that decade yeah it was uh I was pissed you know I was pissed about the whole thing because I felt like there I could have possibly could have been used to get what we needed yeah like you know take Sean out of this let me do it and then I'll do the business on the other side right I think Brett probably would have went for that you know I mean there was such disdain at that time between the two of them and you know and Brett you know was going you know Brett was leaving but I was just kind of at that point I was like you know if you know if you did just kind of come to me with this too you know and I mean it's his company and you know I mean he did what he thought was best but I was like I think I could have helped this whole thing right here I'm right here you know I'm gonna do business and you know but it happened and like I was really pissed like you know the next day you know we're supposed to show up by noon for a TV day and I don't know I think I rolled in about five the next day because I didn't know like I'm so pissed about the whole thing in the way it went down like I just like I had to really gather myself because I was you know my intentions like when I got there I was like I'm going off on somebody about this you know and well you love Vince - I mean Vince had done right by you and you're probably disappointed in him right yeah I'm really disappointed in the whole situation and I don't want to put myself like I was so angry like I don't want to go in there and start you know I mean believe me Vince and I have had our disagreements and you know we've had our but it was more the issues were more centered around you know what I had going on and not what somebody else was doing you know what I mean but I also always look at the big picture before I look at my own thing I look at the big picture of you know it's what's the cliche what's best for business right so but I was like oh man if I if I go I'm I'm going in there raising hell and I'm not sure that you know I want to do that so it took me all day long finally figure out okay you've got to calm down and you got to hear his side of it yeah well it turns out not okay yeah well at that point I'd already you know I'd already you know I'd already talked with Brett and you know everything had already happened you know the fight everything else all had already already happened so hey Brett punch up yeah yeah so I had to figure out okay well I need to hear I need to hear Vince's side of this and then give my perspective and then at least you know say look this kind of [ __ ] happens again you know you got to you got to involve me here because you know it doesn't have to go down like this right and you know and he agreed and you know you know there's no guessing you know it all worked out it just it was sad you know because I'm you know I'm really tight with Brett you know you know Brett could have done some things differently Shaun could have done things differently Vince could have done things differently it could have been but then just like you said I mean that's one of the great wrestling stories of that error in that decade the Montreal Screwjob you know it's it's one of the bet the way it worked out was one of the great outcomes of the history of the business cuz not only you established Vince as now this villain we're now it's crossing over real life into stories like that but also Brett leaving was good for the WWE because you know it opened they lot talent back then it opened the door for some people to get bigger shine to which sometimes you know in sports and in wrestling sometimes it's good when somebody leaves you know sometimes you have the talent that can step in yeah you know you know there again on that I mean that issue and I agree with you to or to a certain degree but you know there's also that point where you know when we came up it's just like a that's those the guys the guys on top up those are the guys you shooting or yeah yeah you know what I'm saying that's okay these are the guys that are making the money if you want to make the money then that's why that's why the that's why the Attitude Era was so just awesome I mean you talk about stacked I mean that roster was just stacked and of course you know Steve you know Steve was at the top and you had rock there you had Triple H there you had Mick Foley there you had Undertaker chain just you know yeah and and you know it was just like everybody was scratching and claw and to try to you know get that top spot or be in that top spot was with a Steve you know it's like the it's almost like the NBA cuz I was thinking about that watching the Michael Jordan Doc when he wins his first three titles in the early 90s the league's just stacked there's Hall of Famers everywhere and I look at that late 90s thing where you know we're wrestling kind of ebbs and flows depending on who the best seven or eight guys are at a given time and in that time it's just Hall of Famers all over the place and then you have the rock on the way up who's probably I would say all things considered Mike skills just everything probably the most naturally talented wrestler we have would you would you agree with that obviously was a tremendous athlete you know had the look but I mean rock steel this isn't was it Mike skills I mean that's amazed at him that's what set him apart from from everybody he was just so entertaining you know and I've never seen anything like it because where when he was on the rise you're like this guy's gonna be like an actor he was the way I've ever seen in wrestlers like he's clearly leaving at some point going to make movies because yeah absolutely yeah he probably made the right decision to leave yeah you could just tell though with him I think he got like one of his like one of the first little bit roles that he got you knew you know it was only a matter of time he was as ITA's had too much personality and too much charisma you know and think you know he had that desire to go do that obviously he had that desire to do it and he did but it's uh one that you had it you had one of your most famous matches during that stretch too when you almost killed Mick Foley that's the craziest bump I've ever seen in my life the one all for the one through what was the one where his tooth went through his nose see so that was one where chokes landing through so yeah that one yeah though so that cell wasn't supposed to break like that right right say it was only supposed to give give way I don't think people know that I don't think I don't know it don't but as we're up there on the top walking around now like that I already had that match once with Sean but Sean you know is half of what Mick ways and you know half of what you know like I said it's time I'm 315 320 and Mick's probably I don't know probably 280 and we're walking around on those those chain-link panels and you can hear the the wire that has them fastened to the pole and you can hear them hmm they're just shooting off right and he's you step you can just like whoa oh my god I don't remember that from the first time I was up here with Sean right and I swear the force I'm just really fortunate right before I choke slam him like I step off of the panel and step on to the to the poles if I hadn't you going home we could have had all we could have had a really really far worse outcome and it was pretty bad as it was but yes his so he landed his incisor went through his lip and then lodged in his nose right he loved it he's he's the happiest anyone ever would have been with that outcome hey we get runs like laughing so you know he is like I mean he is he's on he's in Lulu land today and I'm looking in his eyes and it looks like a slot machine I mean he's his eyes I'm like and I'm hitting him and I'm telling me like me yeah let's go let's go home man you're yeah he's like just give me a second give me a second but like you guys can sometimes you just get distracted by the weirdest things and like there's just when a thought wasn't just a giant booger in his nose right and look my god it's just disgusting and then finally you know he realizes it's his tooth oh my god I believe it like only in wrestling man he just took it out of his nose and but yeah man you just put a hole right through his look and that's where it stopped you know with it I mean it's a famous moment everybody's seen it I'm sure it's been viewed a kajillion times on youtube I think the part people don't fully understand unless you've actually been to one of these events and been like on the ground for us how high that cages cuz that may be it's it's like oh that seems high but when you're actually like cuz I I remember a couple years ago Shane McMahon did that flying elbow jump off the top of the cage and it was right in front of us and I actually thought he was gonna die in midair like it's it's five feet further than you think it is oh you're washing you're like oh my god what's how you almost think the guy's gonna do like a 360 it's so far it's there's way too much margin in my book there's way too much margin bearer for that yeah you know Shane felt like it was I was in that match too so yeah there's a recurring theme here but like I was like a funny part of it and in that cage that cage is five foot taller than the one they make but I threw Mick off of yeah so I mean that thing is just I mean he look like a little ant when I was laying there at the table looking up at him I mean he he didn't look that big that's just cuz how far away he was and then at really small hard landing area it that desk you know well that's the other thing I think about with 98203 basically eat the bumps just started and ECW had something to do with this - I think cuz they're pushing envelope it it becomes every show has to kind of outdo the last one right fifteen feet isn't high enough anymore let's do 17 feet Wow let's try to get 20 and and on top of it that's when the whole the steel chairs in the head and nobody's realizing like that could be potentially dangerous to the amount of punishment just in that four year span that everybody is taking is like bonkers to look back at and oh yeah I look I look back at some of that stuff and and just think my goodness you know it's a it's amazing that there weren't more really really serious injuries and it's other stuff they were doing at ECW were just I mean it was completely off the chain right you know dangerous at least you know at least with our group I mean we had you know we had a stunt a stunt guy there and it's I mean it doesn't change the fact that it's a super dangerous thing but at least you have somebody there or that tells you the practicality of what might happen and you know like you might not want to do it that way you might want one you know there I think it was just like it's a free-for-all and yeah it's a really amazing that we didn't get more guys really seriously injured during that time period that was also right around that time you switch gimmicks a little bit right he became the American Badass you basically retired the Undertaker for a couple years for basically I mean I kept I kept a little bit of it a few elements but for the most part I don't think I don't think I would have been able to survive the Attitude Era in that that a mainstream Undertaker character as it's again because you mean if you look back at that stuff I mean there there were the shackles were off man I mean it was a machine oh there was nothing they interviews I mean they were cutting a edge and they were you know they were real and it would have been tough for me to to stay so locked into that you know as great as the gimmick is there's a lot of confines to the gimmick yeah things that I can't do and I can't do and you know when you got somebody like stone cold out there cutting promos and Rock calling everything you know Mickey Mouse and you know I would they eat me alive right you know I mean with a badass it tied into your real personality when were let's say it was like yeah you know all the bikes rode motorcycles all my life so yeah it was it was just it was mark Calloway pumped up you know a few notches yeah and it was it was it was fun because it was kind of it just let me loose for a little while you know let me cut promos and it let me talk [ __ ] and it let me do things that I hadn't been able to do and admit it what it allowed me to do is to go back to the character and make that character fresh all over again and but you know even when I went back to the Undertaker I retained like some of the style and I worked I kind of kept some of the American Badass style and you know I kind of just kind of kept you know interweaving the two characters as we've moved along through all these years so we hit it we head into the mid-2000s and you're just you're one of the guys carrying the company in the NBA like I look at Michael Jordan it's like what was his peak year 92 probably athletically he's the best but right 97 98 he's figured out more of the mental game what was if you look back what was your peak year what was the year where you were had the athleticism combined with a complete understanding of what was going on I would say probably I don't know that I could just like say one peak year but I'd say pretty much from as far as the understanding of the business and feeling like there was nothing that came up that I couldn't happen and never say to 2003 to 2008 I think slice yeah I felt like I mean I had a I had a pretty good grip on you know I could I could go out without you know having any kind of knowledge about the other guy and have a match that you know people would be you know like whoa that you know that was good stuff and I was still you know I could still move you know I still move really well at that time yeah I think that's like that's what's so hard now like when I go back and watch you know I grade myself on those years right like wow man you could move and yeah right I gotta watch these stuff like you know the Wrestlemania with Rome and I was like wow what the hell happened here you know and I don't I don't give myself benefit of like grading on the curve yeah it's just like okay that's what I should be doing and you know and this is what I'm actually doing but how where were you of just the mortality of a wrestling career because when you came up think about the guys that were there in 1990 like Hogan's there Ric Flair ultimate where those guys come and go then you have the Bret Hart stone-cold all those guys those guys come and go you're still there when do you start looking internally and going oh [ __ ] when it I might be nearing that point to that I saw with all these other guys yeah that was probably miss shortly probably in the middle probably the middle of the of the Shawn and Triple H matches there I feel pretty good I felt pretty good for the Shawn max the first one I felt you know I could kind of could sense that I wasn't you know I wouldn't move in exactly the same way that I used to but I could still get it you know I still get it done and but it was really I think it was so after the first Triple H match not the one who Houston but out of that that that forced that for series with with Sean and and that's what I had my first tip fixed and yeah I was was like okay and that K and it gave me a little bit a little bit of life but then because when you get things going on like that with your hips and you know your gait gets off your what everything yeah it looks structurally you're like a building it's like you're acting out knocking out like a floor of a building and now you're like off that a whack yeah you're out of whack so you get that one side fixed minutes the it didn't take long for the other side you know you have to kind of relearn how to walk and it's really been a since that first chip so it's really been a struggle you know to try and and keep yourself not only healthy but you know at a level it to perform 20 surgeries for you closing and probably yeah I'm probably close to 20 so the units so yes so I don't hey I've had scopes I need to do something with my right knee now that's like my number-one issue now is my right knee so my hips and only reason I got to continue working was they did a thing called the Birmingham hip resurfaced I didn't in in New York so well obviously if you saw dr. sue did that and well yeah this graphic if you don't think about hip surgeries or hip replacements you know normally they come in there they cut the femur off and then they put that big huge metal prosthesis in there well if I'd had that then my career would have pretty much been over and and that's what I thought that it was going to happen and I thought that was gonna happen in about 2011 I just couldn't it by 2011 like if I'm standing up and on my feet for most of date by the end of the day I couldn't stand anymore I just had searing pain down my leg so I go and see my my main orthopedic surgeon is dr. birdies the team physician from Titans Tennessee Titans and I said I alright bird I think you know I think you know it's time I can't you know I can't do this anymore and needles mark heels it was time five years ago he says I don't know how you've lasted on what you got this long and I was like okay you know and I so I'd come to grips with my mortality and and suck when he said like I said he's in Nashville so I come home and I was like all right well the careers over I don't need this hair anymore so I shaved my hair off and the day I shaved my hair off he calls me and he goes hey Mark I just thought of something there's a stock tur in New York who's doing this thing called the hip the Birmingham hip resurfaced and he says I think you might be a really good candidate for this surgery at this time they'd only been doing it they've been doing the surgery for less than ten years and he goes I think you'd be a good candidate I think you ought to go see him and he says then you could make up your mind one way or another so I'll go see dr. sue in New York and you know he does bone density testing rings easily you're a great candidate he goes I said well I said if this goes well I plan on getting back in the ring and he looked at me and he goes well he goes I will say this he says that would be the biggest test that anybody has put on this you know this this surgery this he'll you know and I said well that's where we're at so I did the surgery briea and came home rehab and started training and that was between that was between the two Triple H matches that happened I came back and everything worked out fine but basically what they do is they take the head of the femur they shave it they shave it all down you know arthritis off of it got all the Spurs out of the joint and then they they put a titanium cap over the bone instead of instead of cutting the bone off they just put a cap over it and then they go into the acetabulum and they hammered our same kind of titanium cup and there and it it's it's amazing it's like it's like taking a top like we need I have one I don't know the company sent me one I wish I could knew exactly where it was I'd show it but because it's just amazing like you can take the part that goes on the bone and you can put it in the cup and you can spin it it spins like a top that's how it's amazing I wish well we should we should mention that your pain tolerance is pretty legendary like even even in that foley imagine we're talking about your broken foot right yeah I went into that match with a broken foot and you're jumping from the top of the cage down to the ring which is yeah you can see anything yeah yeah you can see when I land that I kind of ooh you know yeah I forgot that broken foot at that point I was like that was more concerned whether or not Mick was breathing or not he's worried about my foot yeah I've been I've got a pretty high pain tolerance and you know most times I think it's a blessing but then there's other times you think like you know maybe you you know you're maybe you're tougher than you are smart and you know it's kind of what we're dealing with now and this whole process is like right you know or what are you doing to yourself looking you know trying to get this this match that you want to have and this this ending that you want what are you doing long-term and well and then also like the difference between 25 years 30 years 32 years at some point the incredible career is the incredible career like how long do you keep adding to it exactly you know and you know there's this the chance to now at this point like I always you know I'm really cognizant of like I don't want to do damage to what you know the legacy that I have I I don't want people so sad about you know Ollie at the end you know yeah yeah he had all those great fights but he you know because he got screwed out of all of his money he kept fighting and then you know there's just guys that were just hammering that know you know that I'm a huge boxing fan right so yeah I mean I me did you know I was pride watching Larry Holmes beat Muhammad Ali and Holmes looking at the rest like are you gonna stop this or not you know and remember the Sports Illustrated cover after that and it's just Ali sitting in the in his corner just faces all swollen and it's a man yeah yeah same thing it's funny with with boxing and I think MMA a little bit too they always have to have like the two extra fights before they realize that they're actually done like they need to get the [ __ ] kicked out of them two extra times that's like oh I must be done only Haggar is the only one who at all my favorites is the only one who never had those two extra fights yeah yeah yeah I love Hagler my gosh dang yeah I love watching him fight that fight with him and Hearns is the greatest four rounds ever they just showed it on ABC a couple weeks ago I think it's the greatest ten minutes of all time whatever it is awesome it was like it was like it was scripted okay you know what else is amazing Hagler Leonard which was such an iconic fight right it's like a week it might even that's a week after Andre Hogan it's one way or the other yeah it's one weekend was Audrey Hogan than the next weekend is Hagler Leonard Wow crazy spring hey before we go I wanted to I you've such a fascinating relationship with Vince McMahon hmm I think it seems like you know a lot of people have a lot of complicated feelings about him I personally have had a great relationship with him but you seem to have the best relationship with him why why is your relationship the best with him you know what I don't know I think you know one this business leads to a lot of between talent and you know he used to be back in the day we used to call him the Booker right milker you know and so there's always there's always been this bread this this kind of contentiousness between the talent and the you know and the management and i don't know i think it's probably just the trust level and the fact that you know just through the years like one like i never forget that he gave me that opportunity that you know that's a lot of people call me silly and naive because you should go as you go always go for the money right well that's not the way I'm wired whether it be good or it may be bad it happened to work out okay for me but I just think I think you know he always knew no matter what that he could trust me and in turn I could never say that there's been a time that you know that he's screwed me over and so even I got a relationship today I mean he's still my boss obviously but we hardly ever talk business anymore i there's usually somebody else that like if I have an issue with something I deal with somebody else and then you know me and him we talked more as you know as friends and unless something big comes up you know or you know if he's wants me to work Wrestlemania then he you know he'll usually when nobody else will call me he has to force himself to call me but I think it's just the trust and then just being through so much stuff together you know and I was with him I was with him during the the trial back in the day you know funny story about that he had all that going on right like he had the bodybuilding thing and then the trial and all of its just really going to hell so he was at the time like a big he's a big Redskins fan right watched and risky and I'm a big Dallas Cowboy fan right even with all that going on we made a bet right because you know Dallas plays Washington twice a year anyway so we just made a casual you know a casual bet over a hundred bucks who's gonna win the game as usual Cowboys win and he was he was in the middle of going back and forth in the trial he sent somebody to TV he wasn't gonna be there he sent somebody with a hundred dollars in pennies to pay me off I mean with the whole world potentially just came in in on him you know I mean wow you could not you could look at that man honestly and everything could be just going completely to [ __ ] and you aski MAOIs daya's it's [ __ ] great I mean how can you not you know I mean he's just this is how he is and you know and and I guess I have a lot of that you know so I wear a few more emotions on my sleeve than he does but I mean I we're very similar that way like with my pain tolerance I could be in you know I can be in excruciating pain you know I'll be able to sit here and have this conversation with you I'm not gonna you know well we just have a lot of similarities in our in our in our personalities and I think it's just years of trust and and I don't know I didn't realize till I watched the documentary that you know you guys had such a deep friendship that you get hurt in the Lesnar match and he leaves WrestleMania yeah he literally goes to the hospital and takes off and just like alright you guys handle the rest of Wrestlemania I'm leaving yeah yeah I mean evidently I told him I like I cut I cut a promo on him and I don't remember doing any of this but I kind of promo I'm like don't you have you know don't you have a show or something to run why are you here I don't remember any of it just what my wife told me happened well yeah what do you think what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about him I think most people think he's like a just this this tyrant and you know he's uh he really and you only get to see it I guess if you're close to it but I mean he's just like for years he such a a giving person he really is just he's a really kind giving person he he knows how to run business obviously but he's just a genuinely caring and giving person like for years he didn't all the charities that we worked with there was no publicity about any of it you know I mean we worked with make-a-wish Foundation for years and you never heard a word about it they just because it wasn't that's not what he was that was not he was about it was it was from his heart you know and you know it's like Tribute to the Troops I mean every year whether it be our back or Afghanistan he was on that plane with us I mean that's something meters I don't think people realize what a big heart that he has and and how much he cares about the people around him do you do you think he's one of those guys that he just keeps doing this and till he dies there's never I'm retiring like it's just this is it yeah he loves it he loves it uh he loves that product and he loves working out right those are any hero and his grandkids and his family yeah I mean that that he just loves it and he's you know he's what 75 he's 75 yeah he's just like like the Energizer Bunny man you know it's crazy 99 his mom is 99 and was still playing tennis at 97 well and his son his son is almost 50 jumping off 25 foot cages and right above drops oh yeah they got some crazy gene there that that the rest of us don't don't have but yeah I hope no one's waiting on him to kick so that they can take over because they yeah they're along with me I forgot to ask you this probably was important because we're in the middle of a pandemic and all the the wrestling industry right now just trying to do shows and events with no fans you had probably the most memorable match of Wrestlemania the the boneyard match right but wrestling with no fans really made me realize oh it turns out fans are really important with wrestling like entrance music crowd noise it's like uh [ __ ] you just take for granted and it's like wow this is weird bizarre I think it worked better for UFC because there were different things you could hear the corner man it seems like it's still feeling its way with WWE how to do this how do you think they've handled it so far I think they're making the best out of a really horrible situation obviously you feed you know you feed so much off of your of your audience and you use their energy a lot to propel you through you know your promos and matches and and things like that and you can still see you know during the shows that sometimes you just can't they can't help it they got a stadium look to the crowd and it's just any it's an empty warehouse it is so bizarre like I did want to lead up to Wrestlemania I did I did one segment in there at the warehouse and like and I was trying to be animated and and you know and pissed off about something that AJ had said and I'm storming around the ring and I'm just thinking I keep I'm just like I'm trying to draw on all the memories of like sold-out crowds and I'm trying to on one hand I'm trying to draw those memories but then I'm you know I'm walking around it's just like there's nothing there other than the camera guy you know it is so bizarre and you really it gives you perspective on how much that you do count on your fan base and the people being there it's just because a lot of times if you're cutting a promo or something on somebody you want to make eye contact with somebody and you know it's easier to make it really personal if you can but with nobody there is it's it's strange well maybe think that the crowd is actually the single most important character because the wrestlers can trade but you can change but the actual the noise the ebb and flow when the crowd turns on somebody when they don't like a match I know you you gauge so much of your own reaction watching something from what the fans think just remove that is so it's so surreal to watch what is it just that curiosity what was the best crowd you talking 35 years of wrestling for you what was the single best crowd man because you've wrestled everywhere I mean even go back to the Astrodome and places like that like yeah arenas that aren't even in domes that don't even exist anymore yeah yeah so that crowd in the Astrodome was pretty live of course I was I'm from Houston originally so you know that was pretty special but that crowd in Dallas at Texas Stadium man that was that place was rocking too you know hundred thousand people Oh Wrestlemania yeah oh I was there yeah that was amazing yeah I mean that was just an ocean of people and you know it was the largest crowd that I'd ever worked in front of I say way in any case a what you know where I used to loved work you know when the card was sold out at the garden the Boston Garden and the and Madison Square you know those places when they're full and the business is really thriving yeah it's just awesome to work because the fans they come to have a good time and and and I talked about it a little bit and is in the Dhokla when you go to the gardens you got to bring it right right and if you bring it they're gonna love you and they're gonna show you that they're gonna show you that love and that appreciation Brad but you sneaked it up and you are gonna hear him yeah so it's it's you know and and and then in Madison Square is is you know it was always though it was the first it was the first one that put all the big pictures of people that had performed yeah the walls the line the halls they were the first one I think to do that and where I dress normally at the garden when I came out right before I'd go to the you know area where we used to come out on the side there was there's a big picture of Elvis and then right next to Elvis was Ali which I was a big Elvis fan and a big Olly fan right so those were like two of the last two things that that I saw Elvis at the garden Leigh at the garden against Frazier and in boom it was time to you know turn into the Undertaker and go out so that was this like all those years that I worked there that was kind of my routine right before I would go out I would look at those pictures and you know go out so those msg Kratz and some of the stuff's on YouTube now like the spectrum MSG Boston Garden Chicago Stadium rum which they only WWE was there that often but all those kind of basketball arenas with the old set up before you had the Suites right and the fans are just losing their [ __ ] like you go back and you see the Bruno matches from the early 70s or you know even some of Hogans earlier stuff but right the the Backlund stuff is where it really gets nuts cuz you know he's kind of he held the title for five years and it barely gets mentioned anymore but was fighting all these awesome villains from late seventies on and the crowd is just loosen their minds during it it's unbelievable okay it's like life or death it just it'll never be that way again I don't know why it was like that in the late 70s but the business was protected back then you know it and you know I'm kind of the last of the guys that tried to protect protect the business yeah now you know it's and I get it I mean it's just it is it's you know things progress and and it's the state of things but you know back then it was just there was just less there was less knowledge now there's so much you know every he knows everything you know everybody knows good what's going on behind you know what goes on behind the scenes and you know our fan base they want to know what's going on in their personal life so everybody's on Instagram and Twitter and you know there's so much that you just there's nothing you know and back then you know half the people still thought it was a shoot you know you know I I would say was more than half oh yeah probably yeah I'd say it was like 90% and you know and now we kind of go out of our way to make sure that people know that it's not yeah I just kind of took a little bit I think of the mystique in that and uh and they just the the feel of it you know now everybody I said everybody knows everything and it's Farber I remember Dave Meltzer when he was writing for the National the sports newspaper no and he was writing about wrestling and it was the first time somebody was writing about wrestling and reading and being like wait what the foot wait what wait the and there was this whole inner game but it didn't really come out until the mid-90s when the when the internet starts and then the message boards yeah and and then you could feel wrestling trying to account for where you would have these Monday night Raw's but the fans knew somebody was gonna show up that night because they'd read it on a message board right there chaining for the wrestler who's not even introduced yet and then the announcers have to pretend they have no idea this guy's gonna come out and you just feel it shift but and then they figured it out yeah but it took a couple yes I just remember being a fan as kid like there were there was no internet you know you you had to wait til that show came on or if you went to the you know if you went to the event live like I grew up in Houston used to go to the same Euston Coliseum and and watch it there but that was all the content you got so you know that or you know and then if you want to know what was going on around the country then you had to wait until one of the magazines came out like regular Wrestling Illustrated or oh yeah I know what's going on in the Carolinas or Florida or you know or Minnesota I just you know I get it but I wish there was a little bit of that left yeah I wish there was a little bit more mystique but there's this you know we try to do things now and I don't I have this conversation with Vince all the time was like how how definitely find out like it has there has to be some kind of internal leak somewhere because you can't do anything that surprises I mean it's almost virtually impossible anymore so yeah that only leads to be like who's let's this stuff out why why is it well I thought about that during the Jordan dock you know part of what made him so great was there was a real mystique about him we knew him but we didn't really know him you know he was in commercials other than that you know he did press conferences but there was still this mystery yeah what's this guy really like but now you think of like LeBron who's the best player now we know everything he's on Instagram he's producing different things and he's just present and available and you have a few yeah I know his kids Taco Tuesday right and that's just kind of what life's like down 20/20 so I feel like wrestling representing that and all the reality shows I mean they [ __ ] twenty thirty wrestlers have their own reality show it's appointed this so you were kind of the last one you were the last one who called it yeah it is funny right so I guess I got a social media account there's probably less than two years right yeah you know yeah you know the writing was on the wall I know I got you know i got more matches behind me than i do in front of me and you know people are saying like dude you need to get yourself out there because your wrestling career you know is it's coming to an end now it's time to cash in on the brand you know the stuff that you didn't do for all these years yeah i was like yeah you know you know people right no really you need to do this and and you know be prepared for post you know post w/e so finally I you know I got a social media right I got open the Instagram account and so I posted something I think I posted something about a couple years ago I posted something about the University of the long orange meeting Georgia and sugar bowl right yeah so the first kind of one of them really like one of the first things that I did was out of character so give you know some scrolling through looking at comments and stuff like that like well there goes my childhood my childhood is really the Undertaker is now on social media he's a human being well I had no idea I know it's like I'm looking at what you gotta be [ __ ] me you got to be kidding me at this point you know but people were like genuinely this that you know that I broke character finally after you know after 30 years when did they find out he have a wife and kids oh my gosh you people hate her people hate Michelle because she's married to me really oh my god are you kidding me look my thank you she's ruined your character because you have a wife ain't children yeah people don't they didn't they didn't want to see that all they wanted was what I give them yeah you know I mean they wanted more obviously they wanted more but I mean like they get it's my fanbase has been very loyal this person when you consider how long then I've been here like my fanbase has stayed with me and then obviously they've had children now and it's like you know so I have but they're very yeah and I'm very appreciative with their were possessive and protective of you know of the Undertaker and it's well someone's stuff that you get I have to tell you one one story before we go so it's like 1998 1998 1999 I'm in Las Vegas gambling a Treasure Island uh-huh go on it's one of those I'm broke at that point go on this run and it's just one of those two hour blackjack runs where it's like just you get in every card we're up or high-fiving ordering shots whole thing it's like great great Vegas night ultimate Vegas night go to the bathroom and I'm in there and you walk in and you're like two urinals down for me and I'm hammered it's like 2:00 in the morning and you're there and you're going the bathroom and there's just silence and then I said something like I'm up five hundred dollars and I'm taking a piss next to the undertaker what a night and there's just three seconds of silence and I'm like oh my god he's gonna kill me and then you're like mmm sounds like it and you walk away and I'm thinking all these years later how many interactions dumb interactions with stupid idiots like me in 1997 have you had over the last 30 years where you just kind of have to move on statute of limitations has run out almost yeah you're fine you're fine I'm good I'm good now there's been a lot of a lot of weird things and people little you know nobody tries to [ __ ] with you do they do the people like trying to challenge you now now I've been very fortunate that way like you know I'm kind of and until I get a read on somebody I'm like people I don't know I'm a little I'm a little reserved and and not kind of standoffish in a little bit so I gotta get a feel on yeah or at at 4:00 in the morning in Treasure Island's toilet I'm you know and I'm probably about ten sheets to the wind myself yeah I don't think you were sober either yeah but but not you know I've always just kind of carried myself not like you know you know walk-in like don't [ __ ] with me kind of thing but just carry myself in a way like yeah it probably wouldn't be you know advantageous for you to [ __ ] with me too much and you always keep moving right that's the move you're super famous you never stop you just yeah that's going forward that's the worst is if you stop and then you know yeah well I've good news for you what's that I'm hiring you for a ringer podcast we'll talk we'll talk about later I think you can do this I think you can have your own podcast you just have guests just shoot the [ __ ] with people oh you're very easy yeah I do this I'm telling you oh this could be real it could be your next thing it could be I may be looking for a new job soon they come any connections you have you could just call in all the people who owe you something over the years you could have every one of those people on as a guest and that's 30 shows you're good I'm gonna put that to the man yeah put it on I think you could have a podcast like stone cold has reinvented himself a little bit he's got a really good podcast a lot of people gone but he I think you could do it III think I don't know I just feel I feel like you could do it so think about it well I will think about it but I think you know people laugh at me because I've had up until recently like I hated talking I hate talking in front of people like yeah as myself now I'm target is Undertaker I can talk in front of a hundred thousand people I'm not Blake and I but to be myself and in a large group terrifies me and I know I've got a I've got a little bit of a tick where I say you know a lot I don't know if you've noticed it but yeah I didn't notice anything it's really I'm trying to really break the habit of not saying it but it's like I'll start to start talking about a story or something like that and like I'll be thinking about what I'm gonna say and yeah you know anyway people pick up on where they kind of they kind of very well maybe your podcast can just be just stories about things you did in Vegas that the statue of limitations have expired you know some people those never expire are you blackjack guy what are you like poker yeah yeah yeah so you'd have to go to like the Pratt the the tables where the you get your own little area now man I just usually I just get out there amongst them you know people unbelievable how did I not know this yeah I mean I've been out to Vegas it's been a while a couple years I've been out there but you know but I don't start till really late yeah okay yeah that's press away yeah keep it on the radar well this is awesome you could check out the last ride on a WWE Network there's been two episodes so far I thought it was excellent I really did I really genuinely enjoyed it was great to talk to you I'm glad we finally did this thank you well I appreciate you having me on and I'll uh I'll consider doing my own yeah we got talk all right thank you see you bill [Music]

Channel: The Ringer

Views: 419,452

Rating: 4.9021726 out of 5

Keywords: The Ringer, The Bill Simmons Podcast, The Undertaker, WWE, Undertaker, Wrestling, Wrestlers, Professional Wrestling, Pro Wrestling, Vince McMcahon, Undertaker Best Matches, Attitude Era

Id: mqTnEvhj9X8

Length: 105min 36sec (6336 seconds)

Published: Wed May 20 2020

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