Welcome and it is wonderful to see such a terrific turnout here. A Huge thank you
to the Nour Foundation and The New
York Academy of Sciences for making this event possible. I have to say it is a great pleasure to be
here because we have a terrific panel and we have some fascinating ideas to
dig into, and I know this because I have been neck deep in questions about
consciousness for the last four to five months. As Richard mentioned, I'm in the process of
putting the finishing touches on a a big six hour radio series on the
science of consciousness... which will be coming to a public radio
station near you in the coming months. Now I'm not a scientist or a philosopher...
I'm a public radio guy... but for whatever reason, I can't stop
thinking about this subject which i have to say is rather odd, so at night I look over at my wife Ann, who is reading
some great novel, and here i am plowing through some
philosophical tome about the mind-brain problem and i can't really explain it
but it is strangely addictive, for me at least, to read books about the nature of
consciousness. Let me give you two recent examples: the neuroscientist Christof Koch who
did groundbreaking work with Francis Crick recently came out with a
very interesting book called "Consciousness: Confessions of a Romantic
Reductionist" So i interviewed him, and mentioned that some scholars, including the
distinguished philosopher on our panel David Chalmers, have suggested that science will never
understand certain dimensions of consciousness Koch replied, and i quote, "If you look at the historical record of
philosophers it's pretty disastrous. Science has a spectacular record of
understanding the universe." And he went on to say: "I'm profoundly skeptical when philosophers
tell us once again what we'll never know." ...end of quote. Something to talk about this evening I think. Now to take another example, the philosopher Thomas Nagel has a new book called "Mind and Cosmos" hot off the press... also quite interesting Nagels... the guy who wrote the famous
essay "What is it Like To Be a Bat". The answer, by the way, is: we will never know. Nagels' new book is a critique of the
standard materialist model of science, and specifically how many neuroscientist try
to explain consciousness through neural correlates... He ends the book by saying, and I quote, "I would be willing to bet that the
present right thinking consensus will come to seem laughable in a generation
or two." So here we have fundamental questions
about science and philosophy not to mention a certain degree of
testiness when it comes to trying to explain the nature of consciousness. Of course there are all sorts of other big
questions as well, for instance: what kind of consciousness do animals
have? will computers become conscious someday? and what about the people who've fallen
into comas after suffering severe brain trauma? where does consciousness begin and end
with them? This is fascinating stuff... We'll be talking about all of this and
more on our panel "The Thinking Ape: The
Enigma of Human Consciousness". So let me introduce our very distinguished panel
of speakers On the far end over there, David Chalmers
is a philosopher of mind and consciousness at New York University and director of The Center for
Consciousness at Australian National University his many books include the conscious
mind in search of a fundamental theory removing down uh... the row here lori santos is a professor of psychology
at yale university investigating the evolution of the mind theory of mind and
the development of cognition in humans and nonhuman primates daniel comment is eight nobel laureate
and professor emeritus of psychology at princeton university who pioneered
behavioral economic theory he's the author of thinking fast and
slow and nicholas jeff is a physician and
scientist at weill cornell medical college where he focuses on the
pathophysiology of impaired consciousness arousal regulation and
effects of deep brain stimulation techniques on minimally conscious patients it is great to have altogether i noticed a quick word about what we're
gonna do this evening we will talk for roughly an hour or so and then we're
gonna open it up to you four questions and uh... we'll be off and running it dave thomas let me start with you since
i mentioned you earlier some people say understanding consciousness is the biggest myth mystery left and
science policy that is pretty well the biggest
challenge for scientific worldview and i thought about ten the sciences and
mathematics and physics and the book levels in this in these areas somehow work in the middle of these areas kind of a sense of a kind of uh...
debasement of the world views tration where a mckinney up some uh... some puzzle like white around
the edges from we've got a sense of the relevant picture of the uh...
universe of what the domain looks like it was just beautiful scientific picture we have a great chain
of explanation explains chemistry chemistry explains biology and biology at least explains
aspects of it psychology aspects of sociology and so on under the whole lot that we haven't
worked out the police car somehow sense of the end of the picture
allah fit together what's interesting about
consciousness is it just doesn't seem to fit easily into that picture as this is a picture of the world in
terms of object of mechanism describe from the objective point of view unconsciousness as the quintessentially
subjective phenomenon is how things feel from the inside is how we experience the
world from subjective point-of-view embossing in this objective picture of the world seems on the face of a chilly weather is
going to be subjectivity sweatsuit with by the way i
never said the thing that you said i said it it's notified scott explain consciousness but if the u_s_ intended
that there is some kind of a certain kinds of standard scientific explanation
holy for example in terms of brain mechanisms i think that fail festival both more farley is a challenge decides that maybe the time at the
decisive theories of science have to be expanded to bring a bring consciousness and for
years of organizer conference call toward the science of
consciousness went i'm pro science everybody healthful diet might have understands your data recites uh... will
will come back to that how far sites google and go let me just for this opened to the rest
of you are is consciousness one of the big question souter is that
one of the big mysteries or have we have we overblown this is it that not as big
a challenges were saying that maker shipley not and i i i would
totally agree and i would say that this time the size of consciousness is extremely
challenging and in the context of trying to make operational valuations of patients when
the question is are they conscious or not his is something where we don't have
a standard model i don't think there's a dogma there would be laughable so we do
have measurements and we have operational
approaches to it and we certainly know when somebody's conscious the way we
know karthik adlai when somebody's conscious but when you have somebody who
is in a coma and starts to recover but they inconsistently respond it may
be very difficult to know when when they're not responding are the conscious
either not conscious that they never respond could they become conscious are
they conscious now we just don't know has it and we're getting better that
measurement tools approximate answers the probabilities of
well which you worry about this more and actually i would say that as i've
looked at this in my college it looked this more carefully with better
measurements over the last ten years this is more challenging and harder and ira realize how many mistakes
high-paid textile make them and today so i would like a find it very
child very humble and kind of problem of didn't read it attached soft laura so just let me turn to you know
your specialty is more animal cognition uh... panic is this is this a big question for
you what is consciousness and i think i agree with weapons and said so far i
don't even think as modern era scientists and hadn't side as we know
how to get at the question subjective experience when you're having
it what it looks like that i had a measure it that said no cognitive science has made tremendous inroads into other things
that we thought we were going to be able to measure answer grabbing his panel back in the nineteen fifties and given
to be here sitting up here we tell you we can measure data and has deeply well
but we look at the black box in my mind is just gonna remain a black and fascinating we've come up with all
kinds of cool techniques to probe what's going on in the black box both
behavioral ones inner scientific ones and so n_f_l_ uh... i didn't think you
would be that the optimist appeared image of god is is that cynthia and i have to add glass half
full approach that i think we definitely don't even know where the search yet but
that doesn't mean fifty years from now we'll all be in the streets and alleys
this fantastic to we know him danny comment how how big a help big
question is this insights consciousness it's very odd and and i'm in the minority because for some
reason i'm one of those people who knew cup myself completely fascinated by this fees and and in part i think because i remember could
imagine with an answer to that question would be so i'd find it difficult to conceivable
question without having some idea of the structure of with an acceptable
answer would be that if there is one i don't know about it what's i do c and you know that's the approach that
you talked about in fact weekend identified consciousness we can agree on it it's not it is subjective but we can evaluate the consciousness of other people and and above the rebels and we're
getting better at it and we're getting more consistent that building from the bottom up i think we can get an understanding you know the better understanding or at
least better description of the conditions for coffers to sort of bridge the gap between the
material in this objective i don't know how that gap could be great i don't know what the meaning of the
question is will any of that is the objective that we hopped i don't see how we can succeed is is neuroscience that the the most important discipline
and trying to understand consciousness paul angry at nagpur so i i i i i desire to find a sub set commitment or science is a very broad
topic move most the people i know or work closely with former scientists some of the earth is uh... some other or
engineers some of them are cross train and lots of other things so if if he it a simple answer is yes if
they uh... size of the brain if we believe that consciousness is a brain
process which i you know see patterns of brain process be center around our science but there
are signs per se is a a barge kind of set of active so let's
come back to this question of subjective experience and interests yes
neuroscience can map lots of things that are happening in the
brain and you know such and you know these these parts of the brain have to fire
for this particular of mental state to happened but is that really getting after what
subjective experiences about maybe the question is why is neuroscience the most important thing but is there
are signs all you need split plan optusnet for all the reasons
that neuroscience alone isn't going to tell
you why there is some activity uh... because of this potentially on bridgeable gaps of my
peers always been a correct out of the data from your side to be a huge pup of the story both together but we might
think of a subjective data about consciousness measured by the for
the first person point of view or from the synthetic third-person point of view
weaponry talk to people and ask them what they're conscious thought and building into a kind of multilevel picture the take seriously the nearest
hospital should take seriously the deliverance is off the deck of experience i want to say a word salute for my discipline it's not only
in your slot machine there is really experimental psychology i think
that a lot to say about the cause and in fact some of the more interesting
data coming from there because they're raising the question if
we accept the sort of he obvious definition of what consciousness
business there is an enormous amount of mental
activity that goes on outside contras and and i think they're all discovery is being made
their that's for some people if my field raises the question of innovate they
don't know what consequences for because lake never confine anything that cannot
be done without fifty and and i think that this is actually happening so we
have the feeling that consciousness is a very important for sort of deeper mental activity for more
boldly mental ability food following that does seem to be of or fall
extremely sophisticated stuff that can be produced without that semester
measurements very difficult setbacks i want to come back to this question
about subjective experience and and yes we can ask people what they're
thinking what they're feeling we cared uh... you know hook them up to
and from a ride and uh... aspin some of these questions
and monitor what's going on the brink is that but still to try to understand the the essence of what they're feeling
is that good science really go there and the other then asking what the person is
is thinking about i mean is that science listing between
gathering data about what they are conscious often explain the day again dot american gathered i
could find out what your conscious off by asking let me just read this tough
race philosophical questions archivist role your conscious maybe europe complete
zombie and so on and you know that time i can it seems reasonable that for some people based take we're
saying is a gut cure conscious and thereby i can find out about other people's consciousness it's nothing to explain it what we're doing right now actually from
there has been a very big neuroscience unconsciously developing
especially on the left twenty years of animating places right now it is the science of
correlation correlates of neural processes of
certain kinds of of consciousness people draw the diagram of the visual system it looks like okay these
bits connect more closely to the kinds of
conscious states them people report and so on then the than other bits to
missiles are at the correlation what would not lacking is explanation why is it that
all these processes in the in the brain sugar growers and we have no idea what it would look
look like improvement can we ever kept that can we ever get and explanation for y subjective experiences forgets the answer is yes but that doesn't mean that that if there's
any closer to it went to raise it difficult to you
because one thing that troubles me is that something is going to be happening from
robotics so we're going to have robots with with facial expressions expressing
emotions and we're going to be responding mohali
to go and then they're going to talk and they
are forces are going to express emotion
they're going to make sense they were not conscious to us uh... will have no doubts that this is
something that is going to happen before we understand consciousness we
will have robots that will appear contrast what's will appear they are and i don't know if they are
affected i mean how do you know and it's her any better criterium them it's a document that we make about the
other plans you know i know my own subjectivity let
me know contras but but my belief about your consciousness i think could really
be simulate by my belief in the robots consciousness advance you know without those book you know other i have no idea to let me
ask you a maybe david a question confusing that robot that robot could
use that language and what we what what i would have a
robotic aneta adequately use natural language and i i think that's the heart
of problems with that so that's not a problem except all be convinced of the
robot was conscious when that robots estimate already under unloaded down that i'm a
set of soulful soccer practice cuts blaming her
experiment but that subjectivity don't think you can find conference was leading the
philosopher got stuck and that is unnecessary and position well so it was just pursue this question
of computer consciousness could certainly a lot of people speculate on
that does a computer or have to does the makeup of the computer have to
mimic the human brain the human brain in some way or is gonna
be entirely different six we what does it take for computer to start to develop what
would what would seem to be consciousness me we have no idea for an
accident attrib r tripwire thinking that they're going to use all they have to do i mean syria on my iphone sometimes get
shit like we knew there was a writing about dan fleischman canada conscious
objective extinction and sell any dictate the different
question about whether or not actual gears are producing something like a
subjective statements robot i think any simply not true that we can tell women bird flu loosened further is overwhelming but it's a little bit other
people poland portugal everybody assumed
definition but back one-sided you know really convincing robots something in this audience i would not be able to say or that's
what it is not conscious moment it would look the evidence about how the
consciousness of other people can be free but that was that it can be
produced nazi it can be produced you know when we say they won't speak
that will end with her either teacher and philosophy many years ago professor will
he learned that he was all sometime in the nineteen fifties about when computers would understand
language and he said all and by never i'd be the next fifteen
years and myself we really don't know what does that mean context to join fellow and i just i just think
that part of the problem is our best evidence for consciousness and
anyone else is on subjective experience and in in essence it's it's it's
transferring the problem to how little we can get out of external observation
about intuitions about the process and what could be and for might work and
we've is very bottom up as you say and the the questions that we're dealing
with often are okay could this system recover consciousness so they become immediately mechanistic and the error mealy in the context of
the human brain and every challenger and they really do require that we think
about wealth and what state can produce consciousness we're getting much better
i think even with causal uh... efforts to get to the state question but the ship subjectivity how that happens mechanistic lee i think is is opaque lauria what our uh... pursue this uh... in terms of animal consciousness is that
you study uh... cognition in primates in
particular uh... what kinda comparisons can we make
between human consciousness and uh... and nonhuman primate consciousness i
mean it's a big difficult issue especially when you mean
about that subject experience i can't hang out with them without thinking on
the subject of experience mean any of you guys out there who have
a pet i bet you implicitly assume that that
dog heaven keep enrich subjective experience right regis right now uh... it's it's still a puzzle to ignore
the subject of experience question asked what are they thinking which i think we
had better measures to name some traction on but but it's a real puzzle and i think
the more we get to know about animals in the more fascinating things they do
they're not using natural language but they're making incredibly complicated
decisions incredibly complicated valuations they have preference is they
have all that kind of behavior of signatures that we associate with a creature that's having subjective
experience uh... but again uh... that's my that's
might require which is gonna get tripped up by you really can't see g_i_ to
d_n_a_ jobstreet mood swings slightly differently from cricket ball
from a very important in our produced enough contras split and that antoinette mls uh... you know computers can compute
very complicated things than that needles we don't think that's it it is really the it is emotional connections that gives
us the situation so it's an interesting psychological
question what makes us feel than something it's conference besides
ourselves you know that's how the psychology to it
whether that psychology consisting of science i'm very skeptical about and and the
example of the computers you know the robot sweeping by looking
at most mo well maybe not fooling me if it doesn't go far baps you know that's why i've never quite caught up in that issue responded the classic philosophical problems people called the problem of all the
mines how do you know that anybody has a mind
how do you know has a mind the moment finding is that
this problem is cropping up practically families within that the science of of consciousness all the
time how do you know that or conscious how do we know that um... eventually the problem will come up
about computers and the negroes were come how do we know that or coming up for months on fish in the
states and so on diagnose the presence of consciousness and these people before we find that
people very the very imaginative creative defiant
and you know that in their techniques which people are for developing don't slow the uh... the the philosophical problem but they've you know if we find criteria for
consciousness that seem to fit without mobile practices describing
consciousness to uh... two people and everyday life and elsewhere me there is a beginning to be up a field of uh... we'll call the
psychology of other months dependence alluding to here's funded greta real ordinary people views prescribing consciousness to an experiment something
of the robots is a baby has this has not shown the
movie as it is that one conscious because i'm thinking to make a
difference of actually yeah consciousness to deal with you know the through things like uh... pain and
the through the motions so i'm thinking teams and much more with the sophisticated stuff so if you could come up and he said he
did tell us some of the things that you're doing the
best slow so strange about damned caps that after this parse that a little bit the and fascinating in it a relation or did just that i think
right did so but i think this is this this point
about is somebody conscious can can come up in ways that unit just unimaginable until you're actually faced with certain patients at the bedside and um... in our life come into the dayton this comes up
almost all of our work but there's some cases that you know i i still go home
every night and i think about and and i worry a lot about because in we know that some people can peel often debasing the dive and on the butterfly
is encountered an example of a someplace fully
conscious they lost their motor function silkroad all from the outside
perspective they seemed totally without cutting know if you're good examiner you
can figure out the conscious right away it's no problem this isn't the problem fact i'm setting it up and nadia noticed if i thought i'd let
you know because you have a reliable communication channel okay so this is like a sort of a apart right answered so there's a let me
despite worth kind of saying operation they won't work looking at patience so there's common vegetative state and least by definition one amaral decisive patient and
identifies them as income or vegetative it means the same thing from a
behavioral point of view there's no evidence that they're
responding to the world there's no evidence that they're taking in sensory
information and are aware of it the difference between cullman vegetated
state is a technical one that has to do with the arousal systems in the brain stem
returning to patterning apna hi soap and eyes closed changing in the eye opening and i
closure this is not related to sleep and wake it's not associated with the kind of electric
light and easy and sleep and it's just eight part of this sort of the typical recovery
pattern after combo with you know some fine print for all those in the
audience of thirty who has opened commas in there so say with particular kind and rick but uh... it's a very border vegetative
state from the next level tell recovery which is now being called
minimally conscious state you start to see sort of on ambiguous
signs of some response the environment and in the survey grey zone between
these two conditions five things are just tracking of a visual image uh... adult uh... their eyes look over
to a sound although those don't seem very different
than just opening arising closing on the turns out that their creasing to recognize that even
those small signs can make you differences and prognosis predictions
and and this is something that's not being dealt
with very well because there's nowhere to put people like this early on and
they can't go on for weeks to recover and you know they might some of them might
recover so there and waiting and walking around in the year and not get adequate
their piece of you know this is sort of like a major shift as you move on and people start recover more function they might sort to respond to a coming up and then that becomes very obvious that
somebody is dead lift up give me a thumbs up but taking up that's
not most people can get the debts like okay that maybe that's all they can do
they're a little consciousness fits into this minimally conscious state but you know that's within our office want to call it a lot of people his conscience and
that's that's it but operationally once we can communicate with somebody
with uh... yes or no it's reliable it lifted lifter farm up
on the right for yes lifted from up on the left for no and do this every time we cover the bedside that's transferring up but there are
these locked in patients through as in the
diving bell yes but if i can only have control over there applique what widely dinnertime
letterhead all that the question always just me about uh... these patients how do we know
they're out locked impatience or just like that simply out of control but so does this
do you anticipate why was setting all this up for the audience that's exactly
right so to two examples one example is a published case if
anybody wants to read about it was a patient who was blocked in classically
with the brain stem injury to my colleagues and i saw who had an unusual extension of the
injury into the auditory system dietary system is usually very well
preserved for this bilateral goes to both sides of the brain but this person ended up with the
central auditory i'd never shown what that means
is they could hear but they couldn't really put together
complex outs and as a result cult e although it was
unrecognized for many months they've rely primarily on the breeding but anytime somebody would come and try
to test their cognitive level they we get to a point where this person
to see mike they fell off and they were judged to be no my
conscious or cognitively impaired wasn't into hock my colleague judges see no finally
figured out uh... draw from the right the questions it became clear that the
personals fully conscious okay and just needed to have the visual
representation of the works a case of the in that case they're locked in their
fine but the kind of cases that we're dealing
with now that i think a really most troubling our patients whom the times are just
like a lot conviction look down for yes look to the side for
now actor communication for two hours a day they can try to work with the d_c_i_ but
they're not good enough or that i've been up to use one reliably and understand this and then this
challenges think is a virgin c to the whole problem because i have an urgency
to treat if you want this person to come out and you need to understand support of
the problems they're having has it that they're that it'll controller motor
function where they're conscious state having problem and how do we make those
measurements and that's that's kinda like you know that's one example there are many this
effect is so fasting i want to come back to get the threat that we were talking
about earlier about animal consciousness 'cause they're all
kinds of fastening questions here uh... i get one i mean that the question that so many of us ask is so what is if it makes pots human what
is it about human consciousness that sets us apart from the rest of the animal world is it something fundamentally different
about us or is it just a matter of degree are are chimpanzees basically
like us that sort of adolescent level glory what's your cell amateur in terms
of subjective experience messages kazan great ways to measure uh... in terms of
cognition in terms of how they think we're starting to get thinks an imprint
hints about what makes this different any idea that they did a search elkins
away move might think makes us unique event language would come up as i could
be cancer and i think language helps because you don't have language as we
said without natural language it's hard to see express yourself and so on my guess is that language is actually a
red herring i'm kind of in the minority of animal researchers thinking the stuff by just think if it keeps if pigeons had
language they just wouldn't really have anything interesting to see anyway here
there are any other item i did and to get like that dot and and and so legally folks have started to
think that really one of the things that makes us human is that kind of thing
that we're doing right now which is not a factor we're communicating with
natural language but that they were motivated to actually share what we're
thinking at all uh... that's the power that language
does in its expression but it's built on a motivation that's not the words that
we use and then after language we had it's built on this motivation actually
share and we're getting new hints that it seems like other animals team in our
closest relatives chimpanzees in the numbers they don't seem to have the same
kind of motivation to share what they know about the world and that critics a big difference is that means
they're not connect communicate in the same way last they're not going to in a
day and to share with you know uh... so that's kind of wet what folks have been thinking that let
me mention something that jane goodall once told me when i
interviewed her one time she said that uh... she's fascinated by the whole idea of sinking without words thinking about
language in she said that if she could spend just a few minutes inside the mind of a chimpanzee learn more what a chimpanzee is that both of decades of research pretty standard is
that resonate with you uh... yes questioning if i can take some
sort of math and science fine machine but said it might be xin incident i
havnt been fantastically interested i wouldn't think it should then the epic
something we crazier than that you take to take
you can't uh... summit view people always tend to end sex when they try to
pick something that is unconscious but the fact is that you actually look
inside behavior sometimes insects and doing some fantastic re complicated
things that mimic what humans do and really retrace my favorite example
is asked for appeal will simply talks about and gets reaction to death uh... so if you live in in colonie one
of the things you have to deal with his degree in death around you and it turns out that if you prepared
etc and inside an ant colony they cancel take the and out identify it take it out
to an area of refuse in way and what folks calling him cemetery uh... and this little easy mci mission
trips a while millions have concept of death you know what are they using to
decide this other is unconscious about stuff turns out they have problems actually
pretty easy it's ismael chemical called a lake acid that the intimates uh... from ithaca skelton when it dies and if you put that chemical on living instead arriving
around events in the congo grafton entered cumplea f mistake when typing without
him i don't have a living follow-up on that end i mean this is an ask you all
to speculate on this how far family and watching keeping
consciousness goes across yes ok sorry it'll be a long time ago yeah i mean advantages today i a m was
raises a college student i with the lead on griffin who's a scholar of the animal
consciousness and he made the claim is that we don't
know anything different about the organic matter uh... mix of non human
brains vena nothing that makes it different than human brain and therefore his even most parsimonious
explanation as it goes to all other organic reaches delhi college that's one thing about in the absence of a procurement in some cases amanda there at the end
story that you tell is very interesting because it ties up with with newt talking only about
emotional responses here is something that looks like an
emotional response and our tuition is all that's you know week we can empathize with that and then it turns out or if it's a
reaction to a chemical forget it something that's not evidence
of consciousness well this argument is flawed every
possible way domain you know we do feel that way and
it ruins our intuition maybe what we are responding to the
equivalent of a chemical it's just you know and an emotional expression that we can
empathize with it's very hard to find a place where consciousness gives out as you move across yeah
whopping didn't the natural order of maine you're talking first in some capacity so
that without that you wouldn't have consciousness any subpoena language maybe you know our
reasoning it appears to me i don't know if you
need a break they have dissident that was among the
questions you know amended its constitution returned to
them real consensus on the other biological
aunt animals but in fact uh... dot reference product david griffin as a false for bruised come out and
favorite in favor of pen psycho the view that everything the some elements of consciousness at the very bottom level of the uh... of them the natural order of protection dave have everything you guys wanna
countless yup how did you come up with something so i don't really have taught
does so i have some idea i i do have suggested that maybe they consciousness
cannot be reduced to physics that in fact consciousness
maybe a property of nature in itself thinkin top college just maybe we have things inside psych space and
time unmatched cannot be explained in terms of thinks of bubba foley explains in terms of things simpler than themselves ascot unscientific leads
to some agrees to itna in physics and when you step outside physics explaining things in terms of things simpler than themselves but this is a strategy to that doesn't seem
to work well for consciousness level has been led to
speculate that we should take seriously the idea that consciousness is fundamental once you do that and that the sdt two
different steps in the uk and the ira once you've done that also natural to speculate that it is just speculation the cost of may be present at a very
fundamental level of the physical natural order and the printout and that you know david griffin may be correct in the
consciousness has to be found some element of consciousness is becoming
fundamental papa both rodrico with the fact that you know what what is it may to some people because they
proto consciousness just center that the other defense i can send us a
suburb of her to uh... because then we don't understand the south we don't
understand the nature of matter regardless of consciousness when it comes a conscious of our india or in the dark and uh... africa lost
really speculate for a living we discussed pragmatic o
kelleher he had a very you're shaking your head no i don't want to spoil the fun huh linearity group green that's what we hav fire intuitions about
consciousness unwed when we stop in and talk about consciousness of the mom
rather than about their intuitions about consciousness there's literally no limit
to what we could all of you because we actually don't know all we hv orion our intuitions about
consciousness the legitimacy of that question is something that i would like to
question i thought it is you know if we don't
know what it is this all we have our intuitions ultimately what we can do and study the
psychology of the situation and that is a very different thing than
studying the apology of consciousness itself we don't know where consciousness as
president i said i don't know that consciousness is present in these long
biological systems we also don't know that is not present
no we don't we simply don't have that i'd be a bit high maintenance queen kono that is it's the only thing that we have
is originally from the world the presence of contrition religion when you do not understand the
question i think i don't understand what we don't know if i think what we need to
do is build the theory of consciousness that explains the data
that we know about between which is she wondered that
explains the regeneration animals stated that i was back to the question
all concise explain conscious as i mean the idea that's on the table here it
seems to me is maybe there are some dimensions of consciousness that are
beyond the explanatory power assign font it is and it is a legitimate hypothesis
to entertain but based on a very interesting one dante's traffic because it doesn't do any work
for us them and i i think it's fair to stutter i would say which is bracket that possibility and work is if we could discover enough information about how certain things
work mechanistic lee digging intuition that's precise about how things that we consider conscious happen
her in the human brain uh... that the question of where is
conscious and starts a runoff file a genetic spectrum his art one because you
know without a mechanism attached to what we already are trying to solve
about when were conscious or not valued is not a medieval questioning me and i
don't think it jellyfish is conscious at least in a way that makes any contactor
does any work for me tell me understand the problem of assigning consciousness
as a possibility mechanistic lead for physical system which is a brain usually
when i'm thinking about it if it is true victory could be fooled
into thinking that that the robot this controversial fully
express and most from mobile that really change in the picture
entirely and good all that is left i think in the psychology because of asking that onto logical
question is the robot really contras undreamed not sure that there is any
more that we can do beside the fact that yes we think it is both and i feel it is
as i say and i think that day addicts studying in figuring out our and to
wishes about what is conscious is an important question for you is what is they're fantastically ron i mean i think
everything we know about intuition suggest they're fantastically on however the governor a lot of our behavior in a
lot of our judgments about things right means of right now in in politics with
questions about whether corporations should have rights and i bet hardly intuitions about
whether those corporations have subjective experiences probably tell
something about you know what we should be doing tonight
there's a big question about let me be the reception here should we be eating
things that had me inept certain forms of certain kinds of animals and i bet
our intuitions about whether we should be doing that at governing fact that one and i think
that have come to states that i think understanding what our
intuitions are telling us uses canoe for any really meaningful intimidating daytona come back to you
because having do you agree the rest of the panel are some of the
analysts are saying that basically some of these questions are not relevant
because science has no handle on some of the larger philosophical
questions about conscious but i'm not saying that nutrition development agent but study electrolytes
lesbian this is the crazy but i do think that it is a me front is a meaningful
question whether jellyfish conscious wet weather goes further and there is a fact of the matter about which may be but not my position to but now maybe another however i think you know there's going
to be a waiter it may be ways eventually togethers scientific methods if indirect land-use
is what i think we have to do stop of the cases of cartoons as we know
about the case but we have data roughly at the human condition builder theory an explorer free theory that connects cautions that for example throughout uh... to bring prices i think
of this is try to abstract way that we have some
fundamental principles of connect brain process too cautious that could set up to the
most successful theory that explains the data we have consciousness is generated by certain
kinds of your complex versus certain kinds of reasoning on certain kinds of complex power
structures and so on then will be in a position to say to extend these two other cases in sable that's the theory that works extended
family cases where the structure of the present we should expect the consciousness of is
not present it could turn up on the other hand of the theory of
consciousness of the best turns out that high cost of
some basic properties for example of and information processing in the brain
and then what what to do is to extend it to other cases that may be speculative
because we've had measure questions directly in the system to protect that
my theory gives us reason to think that there is no doubt that might help
to explain computer consciousness that i mean if if consciousness ultimately is
about information uh... you know a computer might have a rooted in the game integrated
information system as the human brain does welcoming could be and that's what he did nothing for the
conflict that tuition it could be the jury so it could isolate and area in the brain that is associated wisconsin's that is actodine e
speculated and then if we found animals that don't have that area of the brain
we would have some evenly we would have some reason to say they
don't have conclusive but that would really conflict intuitions associated with the robot was
certainly doesn't have those areas of the brain and can't fool us into the
cancellous can lead us into give generate the same intuitions but it has consciousness i don't i don't really see a map the way outlook looks i have it does promise a robot i think
there's an analogy is depicted it isn't typically the case that most of the
intuitions but consciousness just come from observing other people they come
from this and respected aspect of examine natural language and and having
subjective or at least taking the idea that we as a
bit of experience and then acting according and sharing it as you would
say so i could truly program robot to do all of you about man there is no
no you could but it now it was a robot then that might be the only reason why
you wouldn't attribute consciousness to it and it wouldn't be batteries unless we have a mechanistic accountable
consciousness burrows from and we had instantiated
that in the robot today to have a v_ taken your own replacing one of the time
her and that effort functionally isomorphic to the original
uh... neurons and not be enough to bring them
of a leftist nih go to the well done we speculate that the law school bus
whether you know it has to be made of meat and uh... and uh... i don't see any reason would
would have to be made and sell this if you found silicone substitutes but i see no reason and the functioning would remain the
same and the emotionality expressions would remain the same pet transfers the
problem sort of the way david is talking about the because it is they say it
could be a permission or could be some other aspect of complex matter that the brain is an is an example of
sharing that property it's essential and once we understand that certain
things become transparent about how this kind of thing happens at that
but i think it's more likely to be the information than something than the biology for to highlight what like plasma
physics like something about decried as a matter of some kind of late you know the thing that happens with certain kinds of things and hope if it is the inflammation then that doesn't fit with our
intuitions which are driven primarily by emotion so our attributions of consciousness of
driven by the motions when we think about consciousness we think about installation process this is there is really a deep disconnect between those two but let me ask you about research project that is now going on
what some people have called the connect up this extremely ambitious project two the neural circuitry of the brand it's it's you know sort of almost beyond comprehension to
think about it i mean they're nearly a hundred billion neurons in the brain trillions of synopsis was to say
theoretically somewhere down the road this would be tapped how close are we to understanding
consciousness pele and a lot of people project info i feel like if i answer of each and one
of their ideas so i don't really did but i think one of my colleagues partha
nature of the rubrics articles from harbor is trying to develop a um...
estes digital atlas of the detailed connections of a mouse since my mother one of us projects in that space and he points out that many of the cells their connections are so manifold across
the bridge when you actually do one of these uh... uh... studies that they're
doing retake ultra micah thompson take the
entire brain int reset every possible hip that's gonna require theoretical models and laws about how systems that have
this architecture mighty possibly work so and other were closer but that is the
right direction money adair leasing absolutely fascinating
project backpack at lunch today with someone's working on the science project
of the brain activity mats yeah tried funding to really get the whole uh... you know the whole
brain for medical bhi aa a fly and then uh... your true fees if the central and then maybe fifty years a human brain through that kind of uh...
imaging techniques of her threat once complete developed in i do think that want to go
up that kind of trolling neuroscience
obviously going to be revolutionized than yours aspects of the message about toll for the tools they have been
very limited and religion technique comes along like a tomorrow
right and suddenly most besides co sponsors
will dissolve a tree what gives us access to having access for example to every bit
of neural firings and the brand every uh... every
connection is going up suddenly put us in a position where the mechanisms stuff to be transparent to us but it's still a
mechanism saluda doesn't and what we end up having is probably a situation where we
an extraordinarily sophisticated science of the correlations usually the other manipulate the brands
unseemly certain things and see how kat what will even be able to uncomfortable to oneself a great actors psychologist
pull me over an article back in the nineteen fifties call them the complete officer prosthesis emphasizes the just exactly this the
severity of the photos from you have a picture of your brain there you uh... ul yiv the experiment three of
you are in this uh... this caveat the completed about your brain in front of
you could experiment on their own brain and see how your
experience changes to this unprincipled we have uh... the stroke of objective data about the brain troop of subject a bit about
consciousness you're seeing them one police be able to have stressed out the relevant kinds of principles the objective here to the subject of the word that means we
cross the my brain cap out of the delivered it ever goes away but we we boil it down to the simplest possible
with a big deal from we're going to be not because como i think it's my own view is the best we can get is correlational but we can get that her in more systematic devil in front of the
lots of course poliana physics ultimately if you have fundamental principles of a certain
sense correlational what the law of gravity we get a simple principle
generates i think uh... this in physics told your phone calls a civil war so simple can ride on the
front of a t-shirt so you know maybe there's there's a
golfer cap on what we have laws of consciousness connecting physical
presence unconsciousness so simple but on the front of a t-shirt maybe that
wouldn't remove them and bring down according to the principal i think we
would call the peak of theory do you need consciousness to have a sense of self possums we can't clean measure consciousness is chiquita
asked that and sense of self consensus about is also very different so that his band that out long history
of work in the field of animal psychology trying to measure a sense of
self uh... and in a lot of that his checking
placed in some creativity on the part of researchers but not great methods ultimately despite the
fact that a lot of creativity wasn't quite so an answer to that working
assumption is that if if the animal command recognize itself in in the earth
than it has a sense of self again in fact even till this day date researchers testing new animals with new
mir as a new kind of our contact for a training see they recognize themself and and you know that that pattern seems
to be that you know the the standard been creatures who cmos might like that
seemed to do it pretty well see chimpanzees during this an elephant's
doing it uh... and other critters who are smaller
and don't look a lot i just don't seem to do it but when if you thought of your
sense of self anger set of preferences in your future goals or whatever that
had to reduce that to here did you notice he had some splotch on your face
when you walked by the bathroom near you might feel that i was missing something
he does in general said the man look i think you're right now is that that
measured yet might tell us something about the can recognize that softening
their address not capturing we really wanted to capture don't miss the big
puzzle for books or animal cognition raise a week we have these good ideas of
the kind of things that we do that feel like it didn't in capturing those
very things in a m on optimism after languages really tricky i think it's time to go to the audience
here loved you know there are too or roving mikes and that way if you have questions when
you raise your hand i will call a new please don't talk until you have mike
because we're recording this and uh... but usko here let's go writer very much appreciate heated dependents giving definition consciousness fifteen i think it's very hard to define
consciousness in terms of anything more basic that consciousness just as it's very
hard to find time and space in terms of anything more basic time and space for their fees we can
save which of these i think are helpful as they uh... a phrase future of thomas nagel
affection who wrote this article what is it like
to be a bat you might say that the system is
conscious when there is something it's like to be that system with some things
like to be me the somethings like to be ruined if you know the pass i can still say
there's nothing i select b dot com what by the mental state like seeing
will be conscious if there's something it's like to be in that state for something it's
like for me to uh... see right now but this nothing it's like me to maybe do
some competition and my cerebellum i don't know that the definition exactly
but it was the way of getting a grip on what i'm talking about maniacal gap so no and uh... credits to william
james i think most neurologists omg use some variation of william james
definition of consciousness which is that consciousness is awareness of the
self and or the environment okay and and and most unusual weather
where you know i act which it was just a logical as david said naa circulated rightly pointed out by
uh... and got away with it and james until
then the and then i connect and painful oscar
taking your definition of satisfying i'm sure we not going to the hospital weapon i'm going to question whether there is a
satisfactory performance because of i think ball reno is what
intuitions we have about what his consciousness and if that's all we know defining consciousness of the fit exists independently of our intuition is is an exercise that i have no idea
how to conduct i mean i know that you know very intelligent people deal with this and spend their lives
doing it and it is a necklace i think you have never understood that's that that's good enough the frustration of
the expressing my favorite letters consciousness that annoying time between naps cap explains what we can go with that well let's go over here we wait for britain to bite on the tourists in difference between
uh... hinds and degrees of consciousness you know that the reserve evolution and
variations itself worldwide place we think that capabilities are the
only thing that that very consciousness and not liking the examples that would give him gravity in electricity that uh... then they're very different
fundamentally devil forces eat different kinds uh... consciousness investments rather
than from the state of the loop response and then i think once we get a
good metrics for subjective experience once
we know how to measure it cost versus other things i can't hot button agin that we're gonna
find differences in kind of subjective experience for example again i don't have a great way to
measure consciousness in the necessary dot we don't have a good way to measure
consciousness in a jellyfish but maddening something that it feels
like for me to feel embarrassed if that's the that i could experience
that there's no similar thing that it's like for jellyfish to field and asked and so my guess is we're gonna find all
kinds of gradations once we actually have a good way to look um... but the problem is we keep coming
up with is that we don't have a great way to look alessandro we back there i was wondering uh... using a scientific mappings requires asking some objectivity pakistani subjectively when in fact discovering subjectivity consciousness requires new scientific method doing it in his science fair i think they could be objective facts
about subjectivity gotti's object if at the time comcast
bubbly objective fact your consciousness or yoga can be fighting up maybe a couple
of shop but you are a your conscience but they don't refer to this problem in
science all the time kind of short of the
external world exists we have to make certain
assumptions together off the ground for example perception is some kind of guy to
reality of a novel and the matrix subway doing intensive do we need to
decide to the freemen meeting to scientific paradigm here too the consciousness problem but if there was this much we have to
take the data we have to take subject it first-person
taken seriously in conference that is the date we have
what we believe or conscience because we've experienced it and that they have their ability moments
in history of science when the stuff is going to do an awful about that's already sent a
letter from the third person point of view i think artist into
something we know about in the first person point of view and
science of consciousness has triggered some of that observations from the first person point
of view estate going there others should be used in thinking you know nobody debating burst these days first-person accounts all data pen there's no problem the question is you
know what do those they took telus and convey lead us to a solution and that's that is quite clear let's go with the gentleman in the middle i'm a christian would be listen to me fine let me online chins unseemly signals assigned story like you suggested products concerts jellyfish is conscious wanted me to do that his purpose view maybe that's thinking back way built to scale
back in january how to look at llanview's in reverse also one thing about it not an we mentioned spoke was on on your
question she and i think you know there's a there's never go out with
haitian to understand this um... there's a humanitarian issue behind at least what what the raha just wanna know on that
measurement because of somebody's conscious and they can express themselves they can't communicate with their family
members and we could figure out using the science of consciousness away to enhance their capacity to do
that or to give some of that back by doing something intelligent that that's it's an inherent good at least for my party and that's kind of
one of the motivations well isn't there at profound ethical question which are alluding to
your i mean someone is in a horrible car crash the doctor at the the the people on the
scene say sorry this person is brain dead now do we pull the plug i can make that problem harder harder and harder and he keeps getting hotter and you are stuck with near ignorance situations where without that model you know that you're making mistakes i can tell you we also making some
mistakes and try to give the best information you
can deal with the families make decisions within the range of
uncertainty anderson's visit of attendance of a number uncertainty this
is this is becoming more and more uncertain as the sciences evolving not less so isn't that the implication there that we should be
much more reticent but that's a good laugh well but the flip side of the says that you also don't want to commit people to indefinite their communities and individuals patients who are not going to recover you need to give the you know if you have to give her or
or reasonable assessment and you have to give eighty ever cancer if you're not working with a model most of what is done and consciousness science for
the reasons that we've heard in medicine his testicle making some reason vegetative state they had this kind of injury there are a lot of other measurements
uh... that you can do often if they're in his own where it's not
certain sometimes things are simple and sometimes brings that brain death is
death it's not diagnosis it's not doesn't have a pride
now there's a diagnosis mata prognosis person is dead if their brand but if there the minimally conscious state head edamame after a very severe injury things become harder now you might be able to statistically
estimate at their level of function might not be it expires e but then it's an issue a value an issue
of what no human uh... contect they're going to have with their family and
often the answer those completely on them and then there's a range of what is
acceptable there's a range of what individuals will see as a meaningful human contact with somebody they love and i've known for their whole life and this happens and alzheimer's disease
all the time right i mean this is something everybody's really worth an elderly person who slowly slurs
slipping down out of contact if you had some way to bring them back so they could talk to their
grandchildren for a year that might be a very important thing right would be and may not save their life in a might
not mean that they would use the bada contact at some point in the future is
the kind of thing that you know besides a consciousness will make more wal lite predictable and allow us to talk in a
more intelligently with people about what can he can happen and what we
should do it should we do this is something you want to do that those covers stations are never
going to be easy that they could be better informed let's go wave back and that the the
backroom transfer wasn't there its curse given nobody in the panels
representing them bergeron reductions consciousness consciousness explained away pet pet term there's a program called nobody's really address which is the
reason we bring to study the brain reciprocal apology here reserve locked into in the holdings biologist summarizing well a reprieve basically refuse to believe mari simply process because of the world's before me
falling off which is set it consciousness purely fire process children's here exactly instead it's not something why should be what's the technet steakhouse credible lots of other there well it was directed at a production
refinement which which are not that time but i
think of the brain can study the brain microscope
microscopes and sunny microscopes and so on the other start-up wool in principle of systems directing studyin them up directing the scientific enquiring up themselves the question of poses that you know it's
really how do you know any of this is uh... you know how you know that which is a basic right how do you know
the brain is there a project how do they not in the matrix no listen pick up the me produced in your mind bhaiya cut even evil demon was before you and i think if
you're a scientist who's doing experiments on into people's brains and
a friend for the first thing i think it's life student body of the same kind of
argument elsewhere in sciences you've basically just have to issue that uh... differences of perception or
a guide to reality without doing that the cops out doing a cut something fast
i think in the same in the first part of the new repairable apparent paradoxes but the best response is simply to walk
away pathways yourself right when i interviewed standards and
asked him so how big a quest how big a mystery is consciousness he said it's it's been a mystery there just lots
apostles uh... the next question uh... let's come
up in the front row here so far most of discussion has been with the more scientists once behind not houston which replies thano would you consider hasn't wider once made a contribution crystallize consciousness is in that sample online king mrs uh... list accent two-legged scenes in there breakdown of the park and worldwide maybe not but many people concerned u as of right now may have contributed sister the you you match it one of the ones
that i wouldn't put out there it is jane goodall or anything good writers that tell us something
about consciousness i just fantastically good at during the game of what it would
be like to be off uh... and in in my worldly knowing what
it's like to be a chimpanzee hopes you hang out with a lot of chimpanzees and
not just a good writer i was i think all all the time she spent trying to get
inside their minus fantastically good to meet you if you read some of her piece is aimed
at a popular audience to try to describe what it's like to be david gray beard or one of her fever
tend to get it a fantastic look at that that my read is
that it's it's it's about writers being good at getting inside the heads of
other individuals and that's not necessarily good scientific
understanding of consciousness are figuring out the problem that we've been
out here talking about it's a kind of person who has a good senate system one
intuitions about just popping inside somebody's head in describing back
readers like what's it like some of the first but i'm really interested in from
political methods representing one of the questions the challenges for
the sciences tools to accurately describe the
represent states of consciousness but for now terribly got up we need a better pharmacological method
when you look at them frist is a monster from well it is characterizing it states of
consciousness in them and uh... frost gory detail that's one of the
things we can look to uh... to rise to the question is can you take
that makes us up other obliterated food since all those i would mention have already
begun boosters oliver sacks would be the one who can most current with and again you know the visualizers those people speak to your intuitions i mean they do something that feels
right so it is really pretty interesting enough for me that's the way i thought
about many philosophical questions of the since it was a trial the psychology of our philosophical
intuitions is fascinating to me then the psychology of what so you know why some accounts of
consciousness of pure appealing and others don't as a psychological problem is
fascinating even if i really don't think the problem
for me so little things that vote the psychological can be good scientific question and that was coming to my mind immediately
is when you asked about consciousness himself my answer is consciousness first because i've been reading helen keller
who's an incredibly amazing writer but she's written in the end of her life
fernando earlier book that she wrote called teacher about it and they see solomon she talks
about real feeling about who she was or what
she was before solvent bought her language and it's amazing because she does not by experts has not reviewed
the self identity to the conscious being that she was checks the labels it phantom and she describes it in detail as a
entity that being picking up pushed around and reacting and usually violently and usually with
limit drives and detail which is now a priority items it's not sought the focus
of her book it's mostly about how solomon taught her and what it meant to
her but it is that section for me as a very interesting and the reading and thinking about
measurements in thing about this journal issue but that that's that's and that's
that's one you want your yes definitely and william james's is one of my heroes who
has been mentioned here and i just i a m astonished that how contemporary he
still is reacted a book like brightest
religious experience and i have a particular interest in questions about science and religion and
that he's just i think he still asking questions that most people don't even talk about still eye-to-eye there let's go over here uh... enough of one of the things that you guys uh...
talked about was how when people our vision with emotions that there is you
can't just and also making complicated calculations and my when i walk work today i was probably not a word and the steps
that i was taking within pakistan but they were very kind very complicated
calculations so why would seeing abortions or doing things the calculation the necessary disassembly so someone i mean today doing
calculations part and abar intuition ek read your is conscious i think i mean doing calculations in a
way that makes you seem like us that as somebody who studies in animals
i can watch people's intuitions turned on him and watch people wanting too
should be subjected states animals that do things like we do nested take decades right anything you
know one of the reasons you see inspecting to death in taking that
individuals at the cemetery that's kind of like what we do and i think that
instantly tripped up by mechanisms to fail we must be like a uh... i'd adding
denny's right that uh... acting in emotional ways like we do is especially
to trip up these mechanisms and measure any of you guys have seen this that that
that company a key ahead a commercial about buying new light bulbs awhile back buddies district exile xc asi g_i_ apple oven all the lamp that
was about to get thrown out and they had very emotional music in
atlanta sort of hunched over and it looks at the union and you mentioned you know it gets passed and the rain and
standing in everything you can help inundate the punch line for
the next year in a sales person comes out is is this just the layout because i
have feelings she'll tell you i think i thank you uh... wendy l beloit so we have cadets
exhibiting these kinds of things that look like that so some i think is the
thing that shoots up the party that creature has objected experience the
most is like us million that uses dole feeling guilty you know that's a powerful intuition you
know there is a there is a behavior that's makes us empathize with guilt and dog skimp abusive behavior are rewarded for paradise already very short of time i let's go
over to this idea that the gentleman in the middle uh... e no matter what real believe our consciousness somehow
we all believe that we are on some level and we all believe there's so much that
we'll decide to take much time on friday becomes disband so my question is from the r_t_c_
involved so the question is one of the advantages econ phds and harvey wife did give us and i think this questioned it even more
complicated when we start to realize they and many of the decisions we make that field
the most conscious uh... aren't necessarily the ones that had the best
decisions ideally can speak to this when i can but i think the puzzle gets bigger
because if you think of the stuff that you do that's not conscious like not getting hit on the way here in those
kinds of things from a natural selection perspective those could be the ones that hubert in doing a lot of the hard work
is staying alive and getting meats and so on expected to another evolutionary answer to that question
right now because we did have a theory of conscience would be in much better shite one way to put the basic question of consciousness and why didn't
evolution just producer races on these communities of east physical systems of
what i'm doing other stuff without consciousness that all of
infidelity consciousness is that sir you might think there's reasons to think
that attacked has some function but every time someone proposed it looks like boeing you can do about
the principal about cops alexander right up near the front
through the second round is consciousness the sick green biological conscience he seemed even suggested was accent continue what and and organizations that the valve utility
inbound tourism partner as their lives i work for a consciousness of movement
for the first the supreme biologically but you know i mean it's pre-qualified intrigued by
subject experience for the jellyfish how much i think that we can see and a question for you each of you before we wrap up here uh... if you could answer one question about
consciousness of the big question that preoccupies me if there is one what
would it be what's what's that puts the question you most want answer uh... date lindstrom i'd just one but religious tenets and i guess the
question is explain conscious what will be in
explanation of consciousness bubble of theory of consciousness look
like maybe less cheating because the question is the
biggest encompass houses to all the others were false if that's what we're saying
anything and i want to have his answers ended up i think that's treatment programs demand dance and this is science in these all facts
and they're important facts and and they were grown unmarried relations
of the make for a better world you know we need more of us and i would i would say i think my answer is the
second but it's at it it would be that if if we could have
a mechanistic account of are subjective experience arises in
the brain probably answers david said lots and
lots of questions and then because work with that kaposi's and that's possible i'd like to
service uh... since i'm not sure it's hardly
possible i'm gonna go with something out switches i would like us to have a full account
of all of our intuitions about what what is conscious what's not conscious
and how all of that works and permission processing level killing that's gonna do
a good job of making world a better phase that decisions a better place and
so on and based on what we know about kind of
science in the methods we have that worked pretty well that's something that
might be more likely to happen in our lifetime we are that's i think that's loose isn't feasible program threatening to to understand our
intuitions because they're pretty simple there not until meeku cokie room for me
if you know that's why we can't use that as a basis for science vadu explain a lot about empathy and so if we understood that there is a
lot of socially motion that we would be on the stanley at the same we could go on that we are out of time
thank you so much david chalmers daniel kind of invoice and
Not relevant but the subtitles are laughable.