ladies and gentlemen a very good evening to you all welcome to the Marshall foundation my name is Rob Havers the president here really is a packed house tonight so thank you all for coming out I have no doubt that the theme of this evenings talk has a lot to do with it fascinating study of contrasts to individuals both Chiefs of Staff the United States Army two five-star generals perhaps they're though the similarities end on the one hand a flamboyant individual a man who is known almost everywhere many years after his death on the other a less flamboyant individual a man though as you know if you're a regular and attend the Marshall Legacy series a man who influenced the course of this country the course of World War two and indeed the 70-odd subsequent years so two individuals very different sharing a stage tonight it is a very great pleasure this evening to welcome Jim Zobel the archivist from the MacArthur memorial over in Norfolk coming today to talk about MacArthur and Marshall ladies and gentlemen Jim Zobel thanks everybody thanks for coming out really appreciate it had a lot of association with the Marshall Foundation over the years and uh mildly glad to be here and come talk about MacArthur I'm Marshall if you don't know I'm MacArthur memorial is in Norfolk Virginia it's for build three building complex now 1964 when MacArthur was buried there that was really the day it opened the whole reason it's there is because MacArthur's mom was from Norfolk and after he got fired by Truman he was touring around all over the country in every city was like hey come here and we'll give you a parade and you can make a speech whereas Norfolk said hey come dedicate a park to your mom you know gets him right in the heart and he's right in the middle of the speech he says you know I feel like I finally come home and the Mayor was there and he picked up on that real quick you know you're mine now and so uh-60 they made the pitch to him and they said Smithsonian wants everything you'd have West Point once everything you have you give it to Norfolk it's gonna be the biggest thing we've ever had they said MacArthur's odds were you know really liked that idea he was actually gonna come dedicate it to himself but then died right before it said he would be in a but he made the promise he would be in Norfolk alive or dead on Memorial Day and he kept his promise but yes now we've have a 50 year history in the archives where I work on the archivist librarian of manuscripts historical research we have a three-person staff so it's kind of a one-man show in each different area but the great thing is I get to work with the papers of Douglas MacArthur which we're all dude now everything MacArthur owns prior to 42 August destroyed it's all left there in Manila when he goes to Craig ad or Christmas Eve of 41 battle Manila boom nila Hotel goes up in flames everything goes with it nothing survives there's only a few Cambridge modern histories that still have his dad's book plate as well as his own said he had about 30,000 volumes all of which were lost in the Philippines right now we have a library that was resurrected after the war it's about 5,000 we have a 30,000 volume reference library about two million pages of documents about a hundred thousand photographs so if you're ever looking for anything associated with MacArthur just talk to me and we'll get it to you now they asked me to come up tonight to talk about these two great men yes they are very different but they are two of the greats it's like de Clayton James set a time for Giants because the Giants did show the stray the stage and very glad there are Americans because we were dealing with a world that had a lot of nasty people in it we're still dealing with that world but these guys at that time dealt with it pretty seriously there's been a great deal written about him I think lately that's 214 books on MacArthur alone but still two of the biggest and still the standards our forests Pogues works on Marshall and D Clayton James's works on Douglas MacArthur both of them from here at the Marshall Institute and then as well D Clayton James over at VMI now if you've read their books they're very similar writing styles they flow easily they go into the personal they go into the official and it seems to be very similar so that's why my talk is tonight Forrest Pogue D Clayton James are they the same person no actually Jeff Kozak called me up and said could I come talk about this relationship between MacArthur and Marshall and really there is no relationship I can only find where they met three times 1943 when Marshall goes out to the Pacific meets MacArthur a good-enough island then 1946 when Marshall comes through Japan on the way to China and then 1951 when MacArthur comes back after being fired by Truman Marshalls there at the Washington Monument for the big celebration they have we know that they're in a lot of the same places there at Leavenworth in the early 1900's they're in World War one same time but there's not really much that we know about them mixing yes there are these incidents that we know that happened between them that lead to what other people say is this strained relationship between them and that's why I call it that the first message communication I can find from MacArthur and Marshall is not till February of 1941 and that's when MacArthur is military advisor out in the Philippines he's retired time but he's working for the Kazon government in February of 41 Marshall is the chief of staff and the first time MacArthur writes him and says I want to start putting coastal guns here in the Philippines and that's where this message traffic starts going between them now when MacArthur is recalled to the colors because he had resigned in 37 comes back in 1941 chosen by Marshall then it begins daily contact thousands and thousands of messages that will go between these two people and you can see after the war starts it does become pretty strained the tension is pretty high and you can see it dripping from the pages of a lot of this message traffic but I think the main thing is is Marshall is very reserved as we know doesn't speak much about other people he'll have inferences about what he thinks about MacArthur whereas MacArthur is very outspoken about everything he thinks and it will come in a wave of rants that'll go on for an hour thing is though I don't think MacArthur ever realized that the greatest ally he had in Washington was George C Marshall and if it wasn't for Marshall MacArthur's campaigns were probably been shut down in 1942 he had never been allowed to fulfill that mission of that I shall return if it wasn't for Marshall now these people are very different they have very different backgrounds but they do have a lot of similarities that come through them mark shows from the Uniontown Pennsylvania his memories of childhood are a Kolok run behind playing in the creek and then hunting rabbits MacArthur is much different he grows up on army forts out west in the 1880s every day in his life cannons cavalry two days every day the flag goes up the cannons go off it's all this spectacle everything he's raised on is this army life this army existence both of them have this moved I want to be a soldier whereas MacArthur comes from this almost army royalty because his dad Marshalls dad his memories of the Civil War influenced him a lot but it's really only one memory in Augusta Kentucky he had been in a militia they got into a fracas at one point during the war that was his memory of it Arthur MacArthur Douglas MacArthur the boy Colonel of the West Medal of Honor at Missionary Ridge wounded three times walks with a limp for the rest of his life military a governor of the Philippines spanish-american War should top Lieutenant General should have been chief of staff that's what I'm saying army royalty they're coming from very different backgrounds but yet this decision - that they want to be a soldier puts them where they come Marshall here to VMI MacArthur into West Point they're both about marshals maybe about 11 months younger but he goes in a lot earlier than MacArthur about a year's worth because MacArthur's trying to get a presidential appointment to West Point and then Assateague the competitive exams so when he graduates from high school he waits a year before he goes in now these guys both undergo serious hazing via Mize VMI it's like the sit at all you know it's like my dad went to the CID Allah and the Naval Academy and he said we got the needle catty River he's crying about the hazing he's like this is nothing you know go to the synodal go to VMI you'll see what it's like and they have this thing where you have to do deep knee bends over a bayonet well when Marshall got to school he had just gotten over typhoid fever he falls on the bayonet you know they do the same thing to MacArthur at West Point but the thing with MacArthur at West Point it's a little bit different you know oh your dad is the top guy in the Philippines a military governor and your mom has come to live with you at West Point you mama's boy and so they pretty much let him have it every day but both Marshall and MacArthur prove that they're of stronger stuff and they prove to all their peers that they are capable of leading and they are going to be commanders they all see it right then Marshalls a cadet captain MacArthur first captain Corps cadets they're both seen by all the people they go to school with as these people that have this ability and most of what everybody sees them they have this ability to see a problem see the concept grasp it strategically and figure it out how to fix it in a very short time Eisenhower says this about both of them in that sense they're very similar now they're young officer careers same thing first time out of school where do they go Philippines they get this idea of America now as a colonial power and this is going to be the other thing that influences both of them in their careers they are in a complete paradigm shift in world history telephone car airplane trucks you know new mechanization shipbuilding artillery that can now reach you instead of a couple of hundred yards thousands of yards everything is in constant shift these guys are having to constantly adapt to this paradigm shift in world history America is going from an insular to a world power it's a time of change and both of these men are agents of that change everything that they do prior up to World War two is pretty much what leads them to the positions that they will hold at that time and then how they come into meeting each other now after the Philippines Marshall goes to the staff schools and this is what really gets him this is he's gonna be the great organizer as it says upstairs the organizer of victory MacArthur after he comes back to the Philippines he goes on a world tour of Asia with his father meets all the crowned heads of Asia meets taisho Emperor Hirohito's father goes to all the battlefields the rush of Japanese war comes back as a aide to Teddy Roosevelt that's what I mean about this army royalty that's MacArthur's son let's pick him up see because everybody that's in the army at the turn of the century a lot of them owed their careers to Arthur MacArthur Douglas MacArthur's father and so they'll all be looking out after Douglas MacArthur as he's coming up through the ranks now they know that they're there we'll have them worked at the same time but the thing is MacArthur is engineer and marshals and infantry these are two different worlds basically especially Leavenworth where Marshall is going to school and MacArthur has a battalion of Engineers this is a time where they're probably not really mixing they probably know each other socially but we don't have any evidence that they meet at that time or that they have any kind of friendship at that time 1910 Marshall will leave he's gonna go back to the Philippines MacArthur because as dad dies in 1912 you know the old leader of the Civil War regiment is there speaking to his own regiment at a big reunion and has a heart attack and drops right in front of all of them and his best friend was right there and he freaked out so bad he had a heart attack and drop right next to him and then they took the whole colors of the 24th Wisconsin and covered up their old commander I mean that's the way you want to go but because of his death Leonard would who's the chief of staff Medal of Honor you know Geronimo he gets MacArthur to be his aide in the War Department everybody there is like hey this guy's got it on the ball you know kind of like all these people that are working with Marshall see when he's a captain there's people saying this guy should be a brigadier general they all know that these guys are something else come World War one well let's go back to that point MacArthur's there working at the War Department Marshall is there in the Philippines and MacArthur gets chosen to go bound to Veracruz by Leonard Wood thing is is the Navy and Marines it landed at Veracruz 1914 thought that we're gonna go to war with Mexico they have to get to Mexico City Leonard Wood will be the commander since I need eyes and ears on the ground sends the MacArthur down there now MacArthur's 34 years old his dad got the Medal of Honor at 18 man I got to do something goes down to Veracruz there the whole Keys locomotives MacArthur figures this out there's no local Muslim Veracruz where are they finds this drunk Mexican in a bar who works for the Alvarado railroad come in they're down in Alvarado you're coming with me and MacArthur goes on this excursion I got to do something violates protocol violates rank everything else and goes 40 miles behind lines fines the locomotives which becomes a key to operational planning but on the way back kills about 7 people up close same thing happened in the Philippines as an engineer officer who's building dock got jumped by a bunch of guerrillas killed both of them up close this is a big thing with this MacArthur Marshall relationship Marshalls never in situation like that just the way the cards fell for him but MacArthur's not gonna look at it that way you know I've been there I've been in the middle of it little dip wait MacArthur looks at people same way he thinks about Eisenhower now the beginning of World War one Marshalls back he's working with J Franklin Bell out of a lot of the militia a lot of National Guard they get brought back to the department the East they're setting up all these officer training camps here in the east and then Marshall gets picked by General Siebert to go with the first division the first division that will go over to France and work in the g3 operations now at this time MacArthur's in the War Department he's the first Army press sensor he's really the guy who sells the country on Selective Service the draft secretary of wars this guy named Newton Baker like Leonard Wood before hey this guy's got it on the ball and so then the problem is okay well let's just use the Regular Army in the war and there's a report going through the War Department and it comes across MacArthur's desk who's a big believer in the citizen soldier just like general Marshall will be and MacArthur writes on top of it I don't agree and I will not elaborate Douglas MacArthur the next person goes to secretary wards I gave me what are you talking about because like you need the National Guard this guys are been on the border of Mexico they're ready to go let's get him in the uniform let's get him overseas and Baker's like you're right let's go see Wilson MacArthur convinces Wilson to use the National Guard so he's a big player with all these people everybody knows him already Marshall is someone who everybody knows is really on top of the game and he's gonna prove it when they get over to France as well now MacArthur was an engineer Baker says I know you want to be infantry skip some over Lieutenant Colonel gives him a colonel C in the inventory becomes chief of staff of the 42nd rainbow division now that's gonna take off a lot of infantry officers here's this engineer now you were a major now you're a colonel chief of staff of the division in the ghetto of the France now marshal has already been there he's setting up all the training grounds that's what I mean this this courier service he has is molding him for what he will be MacArthur gets over there and immediately Pershing says okay the rainbow is gonna be a replacement division you all are gonna be divided up MacArthur rights over Pershing's head back to the Secretary of War he's breaking up the rainbow and Baker's back to Pershing that's my division you won't break that I'm someone Carter's already butting heads with Pershing as soon as he gets over there and Pershing will put on his efficiency report this officer has a very high belief in his own abilities but he also says he's my best battlefield commander that's that dichotomy of MacArthur now the thing is MacArthur wants Pershing's blessing he wants his admiration but Pershing's just really annoyed with him whereas one point in October of seventeen they run this infantry exercise that Marshall had put together and general Siebert didn't really know about it and Pershing just tongue lash Siebert because he didn't know about it and Marshalls like that's not really the way to go because I'm gonna want to put this on let me explain it to you Pershing just walked we didn't say anything he's like I like this guy he's got a good mind he's gonna speak up and that will come in later he does like Marshall a lot how much does that fit in with what MacArthur thinks of people MacArthur as he gets over there he's gonna be on every trench raid he's running he's the chief of staff division he's running all the administration but the salient two-phase raid the Risha core trade front lines of champagne in with the troops of Sam Neill capturing the code today she to you on one of the most decorated officers in the First World War seven Silver Stars two Purple Hearts two distinguished you know Distinguished Service Medal two Croix de Guerre everything else Marshall organizes the whole sendmail battle marshall organizes the whole movement of troops bomb Samuele to the Meuse are gone in a matter of maybe about a week this is his strength that's what I mean you give him a problem he's gonna figure it out this is everything that he's being geared toward same with MacArthur this fly-by-night seat of your pants kind of movements the way works at the at the Sam yell battle he was upfront with the troops realized that the momentum was on let's push it on McCarthy said let's go on to Metz right now that would have pretty much sealed the deal taken the main rail center and cut the Germans out maybe ended the war a lot earlier everybody agrees to this now Marshall agreed to it then you know that's what I mean that's the way MacArthur is gonna run the southwest Pacific in World War two this take this opportunity take this opportunity well one is the experience that gears both of them to where they're gonna go now you get to the interwar years Pershing's becomes the aid to our show becomes the aide to General Pershing MacArthur comes home paid marches the chief of staff Payton March and General Pershing let's just say do not have a very good relationship I mean these guys are angry or each other than probably anybody Marshall gets busted back down to captain he's put immediately to major MacArthur is made a permanent brigadier general you know the same age you know here's more man what am I doing wrong it's this royalty thing I'm talking about you know it's MacArthur has the ability but all these people know him March puts him in charge of West Point they'd have been teaching the Civil War still he modernizes the whole thing he creates it so that the cadets can start going out mingling with society because it's the monastery on the Hudson lets them mingle so they can work with the citizens because he doesn't want it to be like what it's becoming today a military caste and a citizen caste that doesn't really know each other he wants this to be something that's symbiotic and that's the thing about the interwar years these guys Marshall MacArthur are going to build the two biggest institutions that will train the officers that win World War two we know that they worked together briefly 1922 because Pershing wanted a football game of army football down in Washington but we really don't know how they work together Marshall and MacArthur 24 here's the thing again MacArthur meets this girl named Louise Cromwell Brooks now she has been named as possibly being one of Pershing's many mistresses and she was due to marry Pershing Zaid this guy named quagmire who is a very good friend of George C Marshalls MacArthur meets her at a football game at West Point in October of 1921 and the next day says will you marry me and of course she says sure what a great idea but you see the marshal never comments on this quagmire was a great friend of his this woman threw him over immediately for Douglas MacArthur you know that's got to have something affecting you what is with this guy MacArthur and Louise get exiled to the Philippines by and Marshall ends his time as aide with the chief of staff and he will go to China after that command of troops there in China these guys have a very broad Asian experience working in their background as where as well as a very broad European experience working in their background 27 Marshalls wife dies 27 MacArthur gets divorced Marshall doesn't show any kind of sign of depression or anything totally straight up goes to work at Fort Benning he's the guy who builds the infantry school that's what I mean about these two guys build the institutions that really create the officers that win World War two and there he will meet Bradley Kruger all these guys that would then become his generals in World War two Marshall that is 1930 MacArthur becomes a chief of staff yeah he's very much a frontline commander but he's also an administrator in his own right he builds the for Army Plan system that Marshall will then use when he becomes chief of staff to create a new staff system within the War Department the staff system that is the most acceptable to him to be able to win that war now here's the other big thing in World War one at the end of the war they had this drive-on sedan they wrote this order that said there will be no lines administered you'll be able to cross sections and one of these things Marshall writes the order because Foxx Connor who's the g3 of the army dictates it to him then it goes to all these frontline divisions that are moving on sedan right at the end of the war and so what happens is the first division cuts right across everybody else's zone and MacArthur's going up to figure out what's going on he gets arrested now everybody have always said that MacArthur blamed Marshall for this fiasco of getting arrested by the FERC because the first division thought MacArthur was a German officer he wears this crunch cap the muffler the sweater he doesn't look like an American officer and people have said that's one of the main reasons MacArthur is so angry with Marshall through the years I really don't think so but they say that's the impetus behind what happens when he's chief of staff 1934 Marshall is really hoping to get this Brigadier General ship MacArthur tells people he wants to me Marshall the chief of infantry which will make him a major-general at the time but he's waiting til the other they said when's that gonna happen he's like well I don't really know you know this guy could you know leave in a couple of years but Marshalls the best and then this position becomes open in Chicago for the Illinois National Guard vision and Chicago is pretty rough place in the 1930s it was a very important position MacArthur highly recommended him he says the best colonel in the Army this is the guy that really needs to go and marshal and all his friends he had a slight MacArthur's got it against you because of that thing that happened at Saddam MacArthur and 35 puts Marshalls name in for Brigadier General ship as well one of major MacArthur's main things was trying to revamp this promotion system because it was all based on seniority and not really ability and that shows you know MacArthur didn't really have it out for more so like I said they didn't really know each other Forrest Pogue as well as Jim James both said no they didn't think that this was any kind of slight against Marshall Marshall gets there and he actually kind of like Chicago and things work out pretty good because the next year he's promoted to General when MacArthur gets sent off to the Philippines as his time is chief of staff Bennett he was hired by the Philippines that we're gonna get their independence in 1946 and he's brought on me the military advisor there he's gone 37 he retires he's out of the army and this is the thing 1941 comes along told you about that one message it comes in they start thinking because Japanese move into Indochina they start militarizing those bases Roosevelt is told him you make those moves I'm gonna have to take action and when they do it he does freezes the assets scrap iron embargo and then puts the oil embargo on him well MacArthur in the Philippines with a very small contingent of US soldiers under general Gruinard have now just been put in the crosshairs because they control the sea lanes to the Dutch East Indies where all the oil is that they're gonna want to get and Marshall and them immediately realize it they're gonna have to start building up the Philippines HAP Arnold is his air guy he's pushing this new wonder weapon the b-17 come along June timeframe MacArthur's like look I want to know a High Commissioner they won't give it to me in the Phillip I might be coming home and Marshall writes him a letter look you just sit tight it's Marshall that brings MacArthur back into the fold now you think about it Roosevelt doesn't really care for MacArthur he calls him the most dangerous man in America you know Henry Stimson who's the Secretary of War he's had his problems with MacArthur you know you George see Marshall doesn't really but that's the guy they turned to and Marshall even says this guy knows more about Asia than anybody else in the army we have to have him and this is the beginning of Marshall really looking out for MacArthur the whole war now as soon as he's recalled everything's about to build up MacArthur wants airplanes trucks tanks people weapons uniforms you know ten'll floss anything he can get out of you know as well as fifty billion dollars and Marshall is very happy to build it up for him you know the thing is though he's also got Europe Russia Britain they want all the material you've got the Navy they want all the material and Marshall is having to balance this act throughout he'll have to balance it throughout the war now everything's very amicable Marshall is trying to get everything he can for MacArthur in those days before the Japanese attack but the attack ruins everything Pearl Harbor they're totally caught off guard out in the Philippines Clark field is bombed you lose half your bomber force there was 35 bombers out there they lost 17 of them the first day and most of the p-40s they had all been up that morning Japanese were really good at what they were doing they came down at 11:30 there's the Japanese Saburo Sakai there to wipe them out that's when everything gets tense for the next four and a half years between MacArthur and Marshall because then it becomes this am I just being left out here alone I need to get this thing going are you gonna give me what I need Marshall is balancing all the world the main thing that he's worried about and then here's the other thing in the war in Europe war ops division and Washington they really want run the war in Europe you know Rison Hauer and marshall will instigate everything but it's war plans it's making everything macarthur is running his own war out there the main thing that marshall is worried about is this inter-service rivalry that macarthur and the navy have because it is bitter and we'll be bitter the whole war MacArthur's out there in the Philippines Admiral Hart is head of the Asiatic fleet admiral Hart was best friends with Arthur MacArthur's older brother Arthur who was in the Navy he was a pallbearer at his funeral thinks he's going to be able to work with MacArthur very well after about a month he says I don't believe Douglas MacArthur is sane and has been for quite a while he believes a lot of things which are actually not true this is the beginning of the Navy MacArthur inter-service rivalry really during the war because when Hart goes home he fills in Admiral King will be the CNO on all of this and the Navy will just think MacArthur is this crazy person throughout the war basically except for Halsey they get along real well now MacArthur will have this distrust of Marshall because of three messages that come in December and early January December Roosevelt sends him a message we are getting everything out to you you have to hold on this is what is going to happen Roosevelt knows they're not going to get any help to them now Marshall and Eisenhower in the General Staff they are doing their best working Eisenhower knows that it's not going to work they know they're gonna fall but he and Marshall are working their best to get him but these three messages that are sent that first one by the President and then to and early January were Marshall sense to MacArthur we are going to hold the Millay barrier we have planes and ships that are on the way we are going to be able to keep the air supremacy over Mindanao we are going to be able to hold these Philippines for days later as when MacArthur issues his message to the troops help is on the way we just have to hold out it's coming the thing that everybody on Bataan Corregidor will later blame MacArthur for now you look at what he puts in that message it's everything that was told him in those three messages and he put his name on it now Marshall wasn't trying to do MacArthur they were really doing their best to get out there but because they don't have any kind of meeting during the war that's just gonna fester in MacArthur's mind especially when finally in February of 1942 the message goes to the to President Roosevelt Kazon says I want to surrender the Philippines and have a neutrality and MacArthur seems to go along with it and Roosevelt Marshall what is this guy doing they sent him back this message says the Philippines will not be surrendered you will hold out to the end and MacArthur MacArthur since back that was not my intent I plan to hold out I will fight to the destruction of my command and my own death and that really freaks him out in Washington because they don't want that to happen and that's when Marshall knows he wants to get him removed and it is Marshall that gets MacArthur out of there the PT boat ride they come and they thought he'd go by submarine but MacArthur met this guy on Corregidor guy named John Buckley who ran motor torpedo Boat squadron three he had all his personal effects blown him to Coveney by March of 42 he's got hair longer than mine this beard out to hear a Foo Manchu mustache he's got two pistols in his belt and a knife and he's walking around Corregidor him because it's like that's the guy I'm going with you know cuz he looks totally like a pirate he gets out they fly him down to Australia Australia goes ballistic they didn't know he was coming but Marshall had set it up that he's going to be the new Supreme Commander for Australia this Australia British Dutch American contingency that they're gonna have MacArthur gets down there and that betrayal sense comes right back because he gets there finds out there is nothing in Australia there's no planes there are no troops there are not these ships these thousands of men that have been told there's a lot of service troops and that's about it and that's why I MacArthur will have this betrayal feeling this gap between he and Washington that will last throughout the war but this is what I was saying about makar or Marshall making sure that MacArthur gets there and I'm just gonna talk there's a million things to talk about as far as this whole war goes but as far as MacArthur and Marshall and Marshall being the one who keeps MacArthur going when they first get there they divided out Central Pacific Theater southwest Pacific area it's gonna be a Europe first strategy that's decided at the Arcadia concert conference December of 41 something MacArthur will always rail against never to Marshall but in the back doors I this is the worst strategy ever they'll never be able to take Europe Britain will fall this is the main theater that's the way he'll feel throughout the war there's a very good cartoon of MacArthur and Marshall and MacArthur's looking at a square globe where only his theater in the view and marshals with a round one we're using a rounder one over here dog and that's pretty much the way it is now come because of Coral Sea and Midway the great victory they decide they're gonna go on a limited offensive this is earnest King that really pushes this thing and MacArthur's like I'm gonna be in this fight and everybody really is tired of MacArthur but they keep doing what he wants Marshalls yeah I'm gonna get you in this now Navy just wants to keep him out they want it just a navy show they want to do all the opposite are in MacArthur's delineated theater by themselves and MacArthur writes this message to Marshall on 30 June says this is a plot I discovered in the 1930s where the Navy is trying to dominate the army and just make them a garrison force and Marshall is just like just be quiet you know and he works it out with King you need bombers you need bombers to support you when you get to the land area well that comes from the army so you're gonna keep MacArthur in this thing so when they issue July task 1 task 2 test 3 that's what a lead to Guadalcanal and Papua New Guinea that's what I mean Marshall keeps him in the fight now King said he could do everything on Guadalcanal that he thought with everything he had of course that went you know your plan goes out the window the first day of the battle because they get there and the Japanese are gonna hold on as hard as they can and so then King takes all of the ships MacArthur has King takes all of the submarines in MacArthur has King takes all of the bombers and the Air Force because there has and MacArthur's like I thought we were working on a coordination here but the key is Guadalcanal the Japanese take it they've sealed off Australia now MacArthur was gonna move up into Papua New Guinea he does the Japanese laying there first he has to fight this hand-to-hand combat through malaria filled jungles and swamps and he'll lose more people than they do on Guadalcanal mainly because he doesn't have that Naval Support doesn't have a lot of that squadrons that went to King and as well just because of the way it was but yet MacArthur now he's got that airfield he doesn't need aircraft carriers land base air power cover a limited amphibious move build another airfield I'm gonna launch myself all the way across New Guinea right to the Phillipines even though he has no directive to go to the Philippines whatsoever Papua New Guinea ends in a total victory Marshalls very happy and that's the thing as long as MacArthur can keep putting victories together Marshall will back him you get to January of 1943 at the Casablanca conference they decide maybe we're just gonna do a Central Pacific Drive you know maybe we won't have the southwest Pacific area make a move and then MacArthur knows this you know it starts going with Marshall am i out of this thing what's going on you know Marshalls like no you're in it and so they have this other conference come March of 43 where MacArthur's going to try and push his plan to move up through New Guinea while the Navy moves up through the Solomon Islands and again Ernest king and even Henry Stimson said this is just a most childish thing he's ever heard Kings I got MacArthur's oh you know he's releasing all information through his communique he doesn't have any kind of security consciousness we can't let anybody do this and Marshall again don't you need those American bombers still and King goes along with what will become cartwheel now everybody says MacArthur can't deal with the Navy but Halsey shows up to meet him at Brisbane and he shows up and MacArthur's got his whole staff on the dock waiting for him you know he knows how to impress people and this thing in the message traffic it's so exasperated cuz MacArthur just fights everything but when you're together my best friend you and I are gonna win this war you're the most important person that's ever come across the face of the earth how's he likes MacArthur Halsey uses every four-letter word in the dictionary MacArthur never does Halsey says it would ruin the eloquence of his diction and they come up with this cartwheel plan that's gonna launch them across New Guinea to the huion Peninsula where New Britain in the main base of the Japanese have his Rabaul which is the main target Simpson Harbor five airfields over a hundred thousand troops there that's where they're gonna move come August of 43 then you have the quadrant conference up in Quebec and they again say we're gonna shut MacArthur down you know Brooke Allen Brooke who's the head of the British combined Chiefs who will later say MacArthur is the greatest strategist of the war wants to shut him down at that point MacArthur gets wind of that and you know writes Marshall what's going on and Marshalls like yeah they're looking to show you we need your plans now what are you gonna do when the cartwheel is over I need to know where it's going you know helping him saying you get this to me now and we're gonna keep you in this fight november/december you have the conference's a at Cairo and then take Ron and the Joint Chiefs basically say we're going Central Pacific Drive here and this is the only time that Marshall will go visit MacArthur because at Cairo he found out he was not going to be leaving leading Overlord it was going to Eisenhower he'll run d-day that was always Marshalls great want was to be the commander at d-day so rather than go back to Washington goes to visit MacArthur that one time now he gets down there and they meets with MacArthur MacArthur actually thought maybe I'll leave he doesn't want to see me you know he's worried about meeting him and has met him you know and four-spoke said it was like eight years but I couldn't find where they met in those eight years Marshall shows up and basically tells MacArthur the Navy is completely against you King is against you they're trying to shut you out of this war now that's just from MacArthur side Marshall never really makes any comments about what said there but later on Henry Stimson said Marshall spoke very frankly with Douglas MacArthur and told him what was going on and you see this is the impetus for MacArthur's greatest move of world war two not so much that Marshall helps him out in this position but just by telling him you're about to be shut down MacArthur comes up with the greatest op that he puts in world war two now a month after that meeting if the 32nd division landed on top of the hue on Peninsula and New Guinea at side-door and as the 32nd division as they moved in that made the Japanese 20th division pull out of this place called Co Australian minesweepers went through they find every Japanese code book they have overnight MacArthur has a complete picture of every Japanese disposition and we're goin't having gone from deciphering maybe one message a day to thousands of them and he's got a clear picture now his next move was supposed to go to Hansa Bay we walk which was now halfway up New Guinea but through this code-breaking ultra he knows there are 40,000 Japanese troops there so they come up with this idea to jump 580 miles over what haunts the bay we walk and take this place called Hollandia which is lightly defended but they need to have these Admiralty Islands because that'll be right on their back flank now this wasn't supposed to happen for a couple of months they were supposed to put in a full division then we're gonna have Nimitz's air carriers they're covering this operation and MacArthur knows I've got to do something they're gonna shut down this whole Drive and so he comes up with this idea because his Air Force chief is telling him we are not seeing any cook fires we're not seeing laundry we're not seeing anybody out there let's move in there right now let's advance the timetable let's get this thing done whereas code-breaking is telling macarthur there's 4,000 people in the Admiralty's but MacArthur said I gotta have this because what Marshall said drops the 1st Cavalry Division in it high n Harbor gets on the backside of the Japanese totally wiped them out within about the next couple of weeks at the same time MacArthur's chief of staff is in Washington and the day that they're having the decision about where they're gonna go next the Sutherland comes in we just took the Admiralty's what nobody can believe it and basically the whole thing is okay keep going and that's what I mean because MacArthur keeps putting these victory after victory together and the thing is is now it's the best time it should be the greatest time between the Army and the Navy they've just worked out this thing and then MacArthur says the Navy's trying to take over the naval base at the Admiralty's which I just conquered this is totally against everything the Navy's just trying to make us the new army a backwater I need to see the president now and Halsey gets up to him and says look you're obstructing the war if you do this and MacArthur okay and let's the Navy in you know Halsey can talk MacArthur out of anything but that inner service rivalry is still there now MacArthur had gone a couple of hundred miles in 1943 up New Guinea with this code breaking he's able to launch 1,500 miles in four months from the human peninsula all the way to the Volga köppen insula put him right on the cusp getting into the Philippines now he had submitted that plan in March right after he took the Admiralty's in the JCS was like okay plan to go to Mindanao cuz we are going to southernmost island the Philippines he's gonna make that I shall return it's in the books but then come June here comes a message from the JC s saying well we might bypass the Philippines we might go straight at Kyushu and straight at Formosa you know MacArthur you know he writes this Leonard of Marshall this is just unsound policy we were going this we have a moral obligation to go to the Philippines there are a million people there facing starvation all of our POWs are there if we do not go back to the Philippines we'll lose face and Asia for the next five thousand years it was always in terms of five thousand years you know that this decision was gonna affect martial rights and back and says let's not let our personal feelings get in the way well you want something to set off MacArthur that was it and this is what I'm talking about this strain MacArthur or Marshall never shows any kind of antagonism to MacArthur so reserved but yet when he'll get a message he'll be like I wonder if we need to show this wooden to the president you know and everybody picks up on that whereas MacArthur is that cabal back in Washington of Eisenhower and the Marshall people and MacArthur's you know aides are writing down we had a discussion tonight about Marshalls henchmen yeah doesn't realize that the greatest ally he has is there now Marshall in that message said look this isn't all the Navy I agree if we can end this war faster going to Kyushu and to for most I'm all for it whereas MacArthur think is thinking politically you know what does America's gonna look like as this Asia you know thing ends up something that they didn't look at in Europe as well when they let the Russians go into Berlin because Eisenhower and Marshall were let's save lives let's not go the slow way let's get this thing over with quick as events turned out they do go into the Philippines because they did not have the Sealift to get to Formosa you would have to stop the war in Europe basically to be able to do it they move into the Philippines that's where the casualty rates go through the roof because code-breaking a got macarthur all the way across New Guinea he lost less men there than they did in the Battle of the Bulge marshal as I said let MacArthur work his plans he runs a show in the Pacific basically he's just the thing is they never have a unified command in the Pacific and that's why all these inner service problems go right to Marshall over in Europe you had a chief of staff or you had a top commander eyes now but then you had Army Group commanders that worked out all the problems as things would happen over here Marshalls the final arbiter between the Navy as well as the Army as the Philippines wind down they're looking to get into the invasion of Japan it's getting to be a really sticky business they're thinking millions of casualties they want MacArthur and and Nimitz to work closely together and they tell them Marshall keeps maybe you should go see Admiral Nimitz I'm not going to see Admiral Nimitz that's 5,000 miles away I'm here in the Philippines you know this exasperating person again so Nimitz goes to see him and MacArthur so glad you're here puts on the act again you're not staying with the Navy you're staying at my house you know we will work this out together again I think if Martha Marshall and MacArthur had ever gotten together you wouldn't have had what happens after the war because as you get down into the end MacArthur's gonna lead the biggest invasion in America or world history basically and there's three outlets you can either strategically bomb it or you can isolate it and blockade it or you can make the invasion and MacArthur says you're gonna have to make this invasion and then luckily or however you look at it the bomb comes along McCarthy doesn't know about the bomb till about two weeks before and that's Karl Compton of MIT comes out and it's planes it what's gonna happen as well a general spats came out general Arnold comes out in February of 45 it was only the third time anybody in the JCS came to see MacArthur the whole time you know they go to you England tons of times you're a lot of times but they're it's just a guy don't want to deal with him and that's the way it becomes in the occupation as well when the war ends everybody thinks Nimitz will be the Supreme Commander of Allied powers you think about it MacArthur had suffered the worst defeat in American history at Botanica door but unlike shorten Kimmel he was given the impetus to be able to resurrect that aura and so at the end of the war he stands on the deck of the Missouri accept surrender and he will run the occupation of Japan after that now when I first started to do this talk I talked to Jeff and said what about post-war China and Japan and Korea and Jeff said I think and this was a stroke of brilliance by Jeff when he said I think that's a little bit too much these two are the Giants you know of the war well look what can you say about them I mean we've had so many great commanders in our history and even though you know MacArthur is who he is if you look at the record it is something I mean I personally think George Marshall is the greatest general that the United States has ever produced I don't think we would owe One World War two without him that's what Churchill said that's what Stimson said that's what Omar Bradley said he was the man who really put this together Churchill said there were times when I thought everything was gonna fall apart and if it wasn't for your reserve that held me in check I probably would have fallen apart you know whereas MacArthur is this guy like I said he's a pirate and he's got a bunch of pirates working for him and he you think about the logistical problems there isn't a dock in New Guinea you know everything has to be built the whole it's an engineer's war and it's probably something that and anybody but MacArthur wouldn't have been able to pull off you know as we look back on it now Marshall is the the great organizer he is the great secretary of state he is thus a great Secretary of Defense MacArthur now is the lesson of what happens when a military man tries to assert the civil presidency and pretty much a joke to a lot of people it's cuz they don't know anything about him because what we know about McArthur is he got fired for saying if you don't deal with this Korean War problem it's gonna come back and bite us in two generations so if you want to talk about that again give me a call thanks [Applause] it's said they do questions I guess if anybody questions sir yes yeah as a 42 LED in 243 everybody wanted to put Wainwright up for the Medal of Honor you know MacArthur had gotten it under circumspect circumstances and there have been many people that have done investigated said he didn't deserve it you know but the thing is McArthur got it because the Allies were getting creamed all over the world and the United States needed a hero and marshal make sure that happened now after the surrender on the botanical record or he wants to put Wainwright up for the mell of Honor and he sends out two to MacArthur I'm a cars like no they're of others that ever did far more than Wainwright did and if we gave it to him it would be a slapping insult to all them I know things about the campaign that I don't want to bring into the public light and he's talking about um Wainwright and alcohol Wainwright was a big drinker James Collier who did a the interviews of D Clayton James said that one time on the retreat from the beaches in toobut and that Wainwright was in his tent and nobody was gonna see him that night and that's what MacArthur is referring to is it petty yeah that's MacArthur though you know I mean he MacArthur I see his almost schizophrenic what do I think that MacArthur he is a very he can be a very noble person he wants to be that noble person he wants to be that humanitarian but there's also that side of him where's that metal why did that guy get that metal before I did and he does lie and he doesn't stab people in the back and that's you know I think that he thought he didn't know though that the Japanese had taken all those prisoners on Corregidor and put them in that parking lot next to the 92nd coastal division and said if sharp and all the rest the islands don't surrender we're gonna Massacre all of them and that's what they told Wainwright I don't think MacArthur knew that that's why at the end of the war MacArthur holds no grudge against Wainwright gets him out of the president soon as he lands in Japan Wainwright's there with him the first day and he they both started crying as soon as they met each other McCarthy was a big crier I mean get into this situation he's this remain a guy you know sir yes yeah well that's that's what I said the the two greatest biographers of Marshall and MacArthur are for spoken Andy Clayton James and both of them said this wasn't true when MacArthur assigns Marshall they're the like I said Chicago is a pretty rough place in the 1930s Prohibition era and when they're asking for somebody this Illinois National Guard is there thinking it's gonna have to be used in Chicago maybe and they need it up to speed and Martin and McCarthy was like you need the best colonel in the Army the letter that he writes of recommendation is full of praise for for Marshall says he's the best this is the guy who can take it yeah Marshall and and his all his friends took it as a slight because they thought this was something that knocked him off the line for promotion but as I was saying MacArthur puts Marshall in for promotion to Secretary of War Dern and 35 and as well one of the big things he had worked out throughout his time was how to get rid of this seniority promotion schedule that they have for all these officers you know this has to be a by ability when when Marshall becomes chief of staff I think he's out ranked by 32 major generals and 11 brigadier General's and I think that that had a lot to do with what MacArthur had done at that point so to me and to all the rest of us yeah it does look fishy you know but I'm gonna go with the guys who who I think are the best sir to Korea yes yeah yes backs him all the way all of them do mainly because he pulls the rabbit out of the Hat at Inchon you know none of them believed in that they all thought it was gonna fail but just like in World War two McArthur saying it's got to happen and he goes in there and pulls off the success that nobody believed in they were calling him the sorcerer of in John at the Pentagon but they need to Hertz driving north you know and this is something he was ordered to do of course he's a roll-back kind of guy and he's gonna want to take out the North Korean army but he starts pushing forward and they told him that barrier region between the Yalu and where he could go highest the Chungcheong river and he basically says I'm not gonna go by those I'm gonna do what I want and the problem was that marshal even after all those problems he had in World War two and sent MacArthur a message says we want you to feel unhampered strategically and tactically to do what you need to do that's it get out of jail free card Douglas MacArthur and he'll you know many times JC hasn't me like what are you doing to me like you told me I could do what I wanted now the thing is is that these guys were worried about getting in World War 3 of course they're worried about Soviet tank divisions moving in through the West and they say they don't want to get in a full-scale war with China which is what they were in after the Chinese come in on the Chungcheong River late October before the November drive Marshall sends MacArthur this message and he says why do you think the Chinese are doing this is it because we're hitting those hydroelectric dams on the Yalu River and MacArthur comes back with this three-page expect no this is the crux of Chinese history they were divided you know into warlord groups now they have combined this was what Kazon was most worried about not the Soviets but when the Chinese combined they're moving to Tibet they're moving to Indochina this is what is spurred every would-be Conqueror from then from the time of Memorial to now these people are not on a course of five years from now they are on a course of three hundred years from now you know this is what China it will be moving to in the future Marshall sends him back a letter and says I don't think you understood what I was talking about and you don't need to reply MacArthur understood very well what Marshall was talking about why are the Chinese doing this that was MacArthur's belief this was the only time you were gonna be able to stop Chinese communism expanding throughout Asia and maybe the world and that was his belief that's why it was his belief that you had to do this you know people say he's crazy where was he educated West Point massing concentration bring all your power on the weakest point and end the war tomorrow not fifteen years from now that was his belief we have to stop this now or it's gonna be here two generations from now and that's what he said he also said it's not going to be 5,000 casualties when the war starts it's going to be a half a million and so that's what I'm a marshal yes backs him the whole time but as soon as they got into this fracas with China they were they were extremely worried this was all going to blow up nuclear now MacArthur never asked for nukes during the war after the war he tells Eisenhower get the Russians to the table let's end this thing you're the only one that can do this you're the only one the Russians will listen to and if they don't want to do it then the next day will end it will now end the war the next day means 30 to 50 at the armored bombs you know and that was also the thing you know at the MacArthur dies the marshal doesn't leave any memoirs because he doesn't want to rake anybody over the coals MacArthur has these two post-death memoirs issued where he breaks everybody over the coals you know that just trashes Ridgeway Collins all of them because of them not seeing this threat that MacArthur saw sir I think that was more Truman Truman was set on picking Nimitz but the night before he makes a decision MacArthur's engineer guy named Leafs fair drop he's the one who builds all those airfields across New Guinea he's the guy who builds Chesapeake Bay bridge-tunnel in the sixties he's from Missouri he knows Truman he's there the night before you won't have any problem with Douglas MacArthur you can totally rely on him he's the best he's the one that can do this which was true you know but many times over there it is thank you very much as always if you're a friend of the martyr foundation I thank you for your support join us upstairs refreshments I would ask on this occasion you let her speak upstairs [Applause]
