The Saltiest Cards of 2022 | Commander Clash Podcast 66

hey everyone and welcome back to Commander Clash this week we are going to be talking about salty cards edhrek recently did a grand salt score top 100 saltiest cards in Commander uh they do a pull every single year uh pulling people on EDH Rec people who view the sites um asking them to rate every single card and and then they compile to see uh which ones are the saltiest and they give a top 100 every single year so recently they did the one for 2022 and uh yeah we're gonna be just discussing the cards here and giving our thoughts on them seeing if there's any common patterns between the Cards what changed between 2022 and 2021 um and and how we would approach using these cards in Commander like what would we do with this information um in a regular game how do we apply it and joining me as always for this discussion is Seth probably better known as saffron Olive how's it going Seth I'm doing great Tomer how are you today I'm excited to hear people's takes on it especially uh one person in particular I'm thinking Crim aka the Asian Avenger hi AKA The Troll master I I really want to hear some of your opinions on some of these cards uh a lot of these lists or this entire list is like almost my deck list it's just like writing down notes like oh I forgot about this this is a good deck hold on if I just got everything here you can fit everything in blue or not maybe not but you'll we'll see um anyway uh moving on we got Phil AKA Bruce kitchen how's it going Phil uh I've got it just uh waiting to rate some salty cards although I I can't understand why all of them are salty looking at the list so yeah not much to say he probably didn't he has a lot to say but man these cards are salty yeah static oh yeah so uh just just to clarify you can find all these uh you can find the top 100 um uh edhrx salt cards uh Linked In the video description also in the article if you go to goldfish.com if you're listening to this on the podcast if you go to the article on MCU goldfish you can find we're going to be linking the the track uh top 100 so you can just find that with a single click but also uh Joey from edhretcast did a cool video a short 14 minute presentation basically on the new stats and a lot of really cool tidbits uh comparing the 2022 uh salty cards versus last years and the years before and see what the trends are so a lot of the talking points uh are actually gleaned from that video as well that I thought maybe would be interesting to discuss and expand upon as a group um so big shout out to Joey for an EDH request for for doing the video you can find that also linked in the article section um as well and I highly recommend checking them out all right so for for our listeners at home these are the top 10 saltiest cards in Commander as as uh notified by um ddh Rec uh or sorry EDH Rec viewers um Seth could you could you go over the top 10 and maybe what what what categories would you would you sort them together in uh all right so almost all of them are some form of Mana denial the top four actually stasis winter orb static orb and Warren Clacks which are all cards that keep you from untapping your lands or untapping permanence and then there's a bunch of just massland destruction sometimes with more destruction thrown in like obliterate Devastation uh yakulhops which we've seen Richard plays several times on Commander glash Armageddon and then the two weird ones I would say are expropriate which is a massive extra turn spell uh can get you up to three turns or steal some things like blatant thievery extra turn hybrid anthasa's Oracle which I guess is just the easiest way to Jank out a win without really playing a game of magic with the help of something like demonic consultation so mostly some sort of Mana denial with a couple of oddballs thrown in and honestly if you keep going further down the list I think that top 10 does hit on there's a few different categories I would say of cards if you really jump into this top 100 list but one of the biggest ones in probably this single saltiest category of cards four Commander players is stuff that stops you from using your lands either doesn't let you untap your lands blows up all your lands there's Mass Land destruction cards that I honestly never heard of like if you go down on the near the bottom of the top hundred there's a car called kelden fire bombers which is like a five Mana red card from prophecy that when it uh etbs each player sacks all but three lands they control so basically anything that's gonna mess with people's Mana is gonna show up on this list very highly on the list so I would say that would be the number one category but if you dig into it think there's some other like common themes are there any other like common themes that you guys see in this list like groupings of cards that tend to be salty I mean Styx is pretty much that right if you have to pay more it's basically like tapping down your lands yeah like brand Arbiters on there that's uh that's one of them rustic study I guess you could call a tax card in a weird way so yeah things that things that tax definitely I would say are a category yeah extra turns as well oh yeah right it seems like it seems like the big one for me is like stuff that prevents you from casting your spells yeah and that's like all the all the man of the Nile stuff is lumped there and that's like the bulk of the stuff here and then stuff from like like just not allowing your creatures to do things like there's I noticed there's the Tabernacle up and draw Veil uh which is I think it just barely didn't make the top ten uh has a soft score of 2.32 uh just just a heads up the highest uh saltiest card is 2.92 that's stasis and the lowest on the top 100 is 1.56 so uh like notion Thief is round he got number 100 on the top 100 and it's half as salty as stasis which is number one speaking of uh locking down creatures I think it's interesting that there's several cards that deal with creatures permanently that are on this list like Alice norn is 1.71 humility is on here somewhere overwhelming Splendor is on here at 1.8 so commander players don't like things that stop their creatures from working forever what you don't see on here though is just wraths like it's kind of funny that if you want to sweep the board one time apparently that's not going to make people too salty but if you play a card that's like your creatures aren't going to function for the rest of the game as long as this card's on the battlefield that's when you start to see the star this all come out a little bit makes sense right at least it's over after the rough and you can do something again with humility it's like some decks just don't play their deck afterwards if they lose all abilities oh my like Yara or something will not have fun because apparently they they play like if their answers to enchantments uh like creatures and these creatures don't have abilities yeesh yeah it's a little awkward that's that's probably the the hard part for those type of decks like a yarak deck what type of uh enchantment destruction are they running they're running a creature with an ETB that will blow up the thing or chulane for example same thing like they're going to be running later things for more value I mean really if you delved into this list and you were gonna sum it up is one category it would mostly be and not every card there's exceptions that we'll talk about but I think it's mostly stuff that stops me from executing my game plan whether that be I don't have any lands my creatures are locked down fromever you're taxing me in a pretty harsh way so I like can't draw extra cards I can't cast my instance like a huge percentage of the cards on this list I think end up falling under that category like it seems like Commander players they want to have the opportunity to do what Their deck is trying to do and if you blow up their stuff or even counter their stuff for the most part they can deal with that but once you stop them from like executing their game plan that's when people start to get really salty it's like the difference between a speed bump and like putting a wall in front of them right like speed bumps people don't seem to be salty about like if you sort somebody's Commander like okay but I'll recast my commander later but you slowed me down whereas you put humility humility on the battlefield it's like well I need to hope to top deck my like one or two outs to humility or I'm just not gonna play the game and I have 99 cards in my deck so a good amount of this just feed bumps though like like the fir the first 10 I I can like get down with but like so far I feel like a lot of me actually no three six nine yeah like like about the first ten I get uh to 11 but this is a good chunk of this I'm just like wait why why is this a problem give me an example what do you see as a speed bump that other people see as a super salty card okay why is Jewel Lotus like a super duper salty card why why is like I I genuinely don't see why that's that problematic why is you know uh like an oppression or something like that and like like I don't think these cards are they're like I'm not saying like they suck like please don't take that as these cards are terrible uh they are good cards but I don't see why that's a problem I don't see why Rift is a problem I don't see why I definitely don't know why drawneth magistrate is on here Jordan magistrate is a 1-3 it is a 1-3 look there are a lot of these cards okay like I get I get like maybe another void uh I get Nexus to fate right like I I I don't get emerical the the promise stand like you take my turn but how many times have we seen that happen like you know someone plays it and like it's a cool well I I have like a bunch of bad cards or I can't cast my cards right it's like sick and and force them will like come on I thought I thought counter spells were speed bumps like this this is why yeah because this is free I guess that's why but like I get the extra turns part I wonder too if if it's a little pay to Winnie with like force a will like if any of it's like it's a counter spell but it's like a hundred dollar counter spell and it's really really good so you get a pretty big Advantage if you're willing to pay a hundred dollars to have force will or same with uh if you're scared really like you there was a pretty big gameplay advantage to being willing to spend that amount of money compared to playing like a counter spell or something so I wonder if that is a little bit of what make people salty about those cards too like I know people don't like getting encountered but it's especially brutal when you get countered and you're like oh I'm I'm too poor to be able to counter you back because I don't have a versaille yeah the counter space on this list are three the three free contest spells like force of negation force of will and the free Commander wow I'm blinking yeah pretty good one uh pretty much free if you sum up the Mana for in two turns then you even get Mana out of it yeah no counters better I mean I I I can understand the I feel a little bit of salt on on uh the free counter magic because I think they're very bad game design like I think part of the part of The Balancing Act of counter magic is the fact that you need to keep up mana in order to utilize them and I think that's actually like a really it's a fun mini game with with blue players where you have to you have to respect the fact that they have open Mana so if they do have open Mana that means you have to either try to bait the counter spell or like play around in some regard whereas and then when they tap out that means you have the green light to to do your thing and then free Mana counter magic just kind of feels like oh well that sub game's gone you can just have it whenever so I'm not even going to play around things anymore because you know he they can have it right like it's gonna get countered anyway so I I think it's just a bad design but I'm not in this really that salty about it I wouldn't rate it highly in terms of salt yeah meat it's just a white shot these terms these things in terms of salt like don't mix it like if you like you know if you choke me uh I I guess like I don't really view that as a like a salty experience for me maybe because I've gotten choked out so many times in modern that that I'm just like okay okay like but like these cards don't bother me boil choke I mean like flash fires like what what is on here for right like I I don't know why it's interesting oh get eradicated by this if you're a model White and the rest of the table doesn't care about Flash fires he was sitting there like I don't know if I spoil anything but I mean Seth had a yeah quite the similar experience in there yeah I know why Kim doesn't fight me because he likes doing it to me I would actually argue though don't you like Islands remind me to remind me I love Islands why why you know like it's like and I mean I could understand maybe like the like humility like salt meter but like I don't even view humility as that salty you don't play dangerous cram of course you know I do creatures will be fine my opposition agent now does nothing right like so like half the time I don't know I I I the only thing I can understand and also why is okay gaia's cradle outside of price point right it gets very salty about gaia's cradle so that would make sense I don't mind guys cradle salty but Tomer is like super salty over that one well I think because of Vince isn't it isn't it also just like well we have we have guess cradle is uh two 2.03 salt scores pretty high up there yeah um but even higher is like Dockside extortionists and I think I like them in the same category I like it because they're both they're make way too much Mana than what what the format should should allow I think it Rockets you too far ahead I think so I put I put them in the same category I think it's interesting to see a few of those push for Commander cards from recent years show up on there I was thinking that maybe people didn't like Wizards printing cards specifically for Commander that were so pushed but maybe it's just the Mana thing because like smothering Ties on there at 2.11 we mentioned Jewel Lotus is pretty high on the list uh you mentioned Dockside is pretty high on the list so it seems like that's another like pseudo category is just like the most busted cards winners it's printed in the last couple of years people rank them very highly what why is Ellen not just uh yeah Alex not not locks out certain decks I guess the card that I really don't understand which is also made for Commander uh attraxa I mean it is number 98 on the list but isn't it just the attraction Decks that uh wait wait even I I think the card is boring but is it because the nonsense that comes with it like it like is probably why but I don't think the card itself is actually that is bad at all yeah I mean with Tulane or Cobalt I get it that the commanders just push too way too much but with the tracks as like it's boring sure but that I think it's it might be tied to popularity like I I think it's uh out of all the commanders here I think attracts is the most Fair because her like her her floor is very high but her ceiling is not exceptionally high you can you only get so much value out of her every single turn where something like true Lane like that that ceiling is exponentially high if you have the Mana to keep recasting creatures you can win uh same thing like like Edgar Markov is also incredibly difficult to deal with narset which is much more salty but attraxa happens to be the most popular Commander according to TD Trek like just out of all commanders she sits in the past two years she's ranked number one with almost 14 000 registered decks as her as a commander so I think maybe just the sheer number of them but it's interesting that lathriel is number two with 12 000 decks and uh I don't I don't see lateral in the the thought score actually yeah I mean the same is yeah the elf Commander uh Commander oh stay so popular people they really like elves but really though like I think that's a really good point like how are we picking and choosing which popular commanders make us salty here because we have like Eureka we have a troxa on the on the salt score list we have Edgar we have corvald we have Tulane that's a lot of like powerful I guess you could argue some of them or maybe even too powerful but like powerful and popular commanders but why is the UR Dragon not salty or like kenrath which is also like one of the top five commanders or omnath or midrolfo like what is it that sets those those commanders apart like I don't think you can argue that it's just like Tulane is straight up more powerful than the ER dragon or something they're both really really strong commanders why does some of them get a pass and not show up on this list and other ones people just get like super salty about when presumably you're seeing them roughly the same amount of the time because I mean based on EDH Rex rankings there needs to be like a way where they do this list and all the LD just gets lumped together because if you remove like if you put all the LD spells into one card right because because that's essentially the same thing repeated right uh that like that's like the first 50 cards I'm curious what the like actu like the actual other like 90 like you know the other 50 cards would be if you just didn't have like most of the list be LD yeah if you could go further further down on the list it would be interesting to see another thing I would say I don't know if any of you tried to take this all survey when it was live um I did I try to take it a little bit this is the first year it had actually taken it and I was kind of surprised that it seems like it was just literally random cards through the history of magic because I got a lot of like Commons that I never have seen anyone play and I have no idea why like who could possibly be offended by lone missionary or just like some random rapcomin so I almost wish that it like I don't know was filtered in some way by like Commander playable cards or something because eventually I rank like 50 cards and then I was like I'm just I'm tired of clicking no these aren't salty to all these random comments so I guess I I guess I'm just gonna give up and not do it okay cool I thought it was just me because like am I supposed to be salty about these cards like is somebody just upset about seeker of the way I hit no one like every card like oh yeah every single card to be uh yeah but I feel like there's a lot of cards that maybe maybe after they haven't been vote maybe if they got like a zero on the salt scale like it's like zero percent of people find it salty you just remove it for the next year's survey you know like you don't have to have like some random comment from Fallen Empire show up again and that it's probably wasting people's time easier for them right otherwise they have to curate a huge list of potentially salty cards like they can say oh these are the cuts that I find salty so I just give them these cuts to rate so it kind of makes sense that the whole Community rates every card it just looks like just can't they just say like for 2023 every single card that was rated less than zero percent salt you just say no I mean sure but it has to be rated at some point so yeah yeah we already did it this year yeah I mean if we already did it we don't have to do it again and and EDH Rec also has just like they already have the data on what cards see play in Commander that's so you could also filter out like if this is playing like zero percent of decks and it's a random comment like maybe it's not worth putting on the list just because it's not really relevant in any way even if it was salty like it wouldn't matter because literally zero people play it they still have to curate it but yeah still yeah it's a lot of work so but it seemed a bit off when you took this area I just clicked on it and thought well it's I mean I have to rank random cards here and I'm just gonna get off this servient keep working on something else like it it's not like yeah I think that would be my feedback Ted truck after listening to it if you could remove the cards just like are obviously not relevant so that would probably make it more easy to participate yeah going back to the commanders I have a question for you what does this data mean in practice so we know that people consider urza corvald Edgar Chilean eureko attraxa these are on the top hundred salty cards does this mean you should be like tearing apart your true Lane deck and finding another Commander like should you be searching for a different Saga Commander than a troxa because it's salty and you shouldn't bring it to a table like what do you do with this data in practice now that we know a lot of people consider these cards salty like should this impact the commanders we play and the decks we bring to to Vegas or a command fast or your LGs it should we probably not will it I mean yeah like I think like as in these cards already have like such a bat like leave such a bad taste in people's mouths uh like example if you look at Eureka and Chilean like they kind of do one thing right like they they do their one thing and they're absurdly hard to interact with along with Eminence uh I I do believe though they're like you know like example when Tomer played energy attraxa I thought that was like funny right like that's great like I like seeing that uh but when it comes to like putting this like information in practice it's it might be better for you not to have these even if you have like a troll like like energy a troxide deck like obviously it I don't know if you could find another uh like an alternative to that but like I think it's better to have like a an alternative mardu vampire Commander or try to go a different route when you want to do vampires obviously Eminence is is cracked and absurd and super broken but like if you don't want to die first yeah like like that's the main thing like with all these cards with all this data that means that you I guess like if you were to play me with any of these as your commander I don't care but know that I will counter everything you play or and I only direct it at you so I I I I will only go for you because you are the threat right like unless for some odd reason you can convince me otherwise so and I assume that if I think that way I'm assuming others will think that way as well like we all know there's tons of other ways to build a sacrifice Commander none as good as corvald but like there are other ways to build sack decks so yeah just take that with like take that into mind when you play these is that they are so hated out that you will always probably be targeted first okay it's a bit like the matchmaking on Arena for historic brawl like you could play a blink deck and use like some random azuria's Commander but you could also choose yorion but you do need to know that you're gonna get matched up with people that also Play Strong decks in Commander it's not quite like this because you just join a table if you just play random games but instead of being matched up with heart attacks the people are going to go harder on you um I don't know I I don't change my commander according to this but I often get to hear that my commanders the scary one and then I get attacked so just be aware of this it seems like I'm not too scared of attraxa but it seems like people ah I mean yeah the the uh the abilities on the attracts uh the problem I think this flying vigilance depth touch live link that's like that makes it just a good thing to have on the battlefield part is actually kind of interesting but the Restless makes it like oh so I can't attack you and you're going to go in life and yeah but I promise yeah I wouldn't say tracks is bad like I think I think this is who's the most popular for a reason and I think she's very good but I just don't think she's as busted as the other ones that showed up on on the list and I think I think like like Crim like like we alluded to like Phil like you shouldn't know that these cards might be salty and I think the most use the salt scale can be is probably to help newer players because I think a lot of new players will show up with a commander that is genuinely just exciting for them like they see Tulane and shoelane says oh I get to ramp I get to draw cards it seems really fun so I will play this and it was also a brawl Commander keep in mind this was being marketed towards newer players to to pick up and and get into the format corvold was also another one of them so so a lot of people genuinely will pick up these commanders not knowing that they're like hated out at your your at your Journal table and that can lead to like some really big feels about a moment where they're like really you you spend maybe hundreds of dollars on this new deck you have no idea about its reputation or anything you just like the card and you show up and then people immediately say like ah it's horrible I hate corvall I'm gonna I'm gonna take you out first and like because everybody who's played against corvall has been steamrolled by corvold at some point you know you yeah that's that's the rite of passage uh these days so so it sucks for the person who just invented invented a lot of money into a deck that now they probably don't like because they're being hated out on so I think knowing how salty how powerful some cards are is really helpful because they can give you an informed Choice okay you like corvold just know that it's very salty do you still want to build a deck if you build a deck and you know when it's salty now you have the right expectation going into the game yes people are going to hate you out but like you're you you know that now so like you can you can adapt to that right so I don't think it's necessarily don't build these decks it's like if you do build them you need to be you should be informed that these these might be salty cards and that people might Focus you more than you expect and I think that's a good way of this is a good a good tool for for giving people that information yeah I think that's a really good point about new players as well because I think if you're someone who plays a lot of Commander most of this list is pretty intuitive it's mostly the cards that you probably know like yeah people get kind of upset when they blow up all their lands or whatever so I think it's like kind of intuitive if you play a lot of Commander but if you're someone just getting into the format you might not realize it because I remember when I got into the format and I used to think it was hilarious to like obliterate her apocalypse and I was like oh this is great like why wouldn't I do this this is so sweet and then eventually learn that like the unwritten rules are you just you're not supposed to do that in commander and now I know and now I don't play those cards very much so I think there is a lot of value for for new players who might not be as experienced in the format and might not realize that the perception of some of these cards is pretty negative overall in the community my new player Commander friend went from Edgar Markov to attraxa and then he wanted to try something different he went Edgar Markov vampires then he went attracts the Super Friends and then he's like I want to try something different brago blink and like I never I never had to chase and tell him like oh just watch out it's a little bit or a little bit salty salty of commanders uh um but yeah uh so so for for people like for for new plays it's really important to to have some easy to digest guide on on what might be scary yeah it's gotta be an incredible fear back feel bad if you like build your first on commander deck and don't take these informations into account and then you show up to the table and you're like proud to show off the car the deck you built and everybody says like oh yeah I hate this that's going to be such a feeling like I hate it yeah maybe you think oh did you ever think about this card decree of annihilation and they're saying yeah no like It's gotta be I I hope some people found this list before they uh joined their first game with a deck like this because yes Seth mentioned when you start playing Commander you probably think why wouldn't I blink my dark side extortionist that seems very good and it is but I'm very good I I got another question for you kind of switching topics a little bit one card near the bottom of the list uh is trying for the hordes trying for the hordes 1.59 on the salt scale it's for Mana everything gets trampled and in fact and gets plus one plus one until under turret so it's an overrun effect very curious why do you think this is on the list when I don't think that Triumph of the hordes is like generally meaningfully more powerful than like overwhelming Stampede or something which gives everything plus X Plus X works is the biggest creature you have the power the biggest creature in trample like is this a power level thing or is this more of a psychological thing where players just like the word infects makes them salty like we had that game where you played the plague mirror and I kind of like immediately freaked out even though you were just using it as a Mana dork just because it says in fact on it like is that just a normal Commander reaction that if it says in fact it's gonna be something yeah like I mean I deserve really got aggro afterwards but the plague mirror was was just a minute or it's a mannequin but in fact hey that's exactly it though right there Seth you just said it in fact it doesn't matter what it said before like like in the fact that it is an overrun is what you should look at a look at it as but like it just has infect it doesn't matter otherwise I don't know yeah yeah but in fact it's pretty much quadruplets strike in Commander right like judging by you kill somebody at full life it's 40 damage or 10 in fact damage so you quadruple their power almost yeah every air overrun will kill somebody though like it like yeah that's what I thought about it like if you play um what's her name Will I'm blanking on so many card names today the will that a chromos will oh yeah that game gives double strike right yeah yeah I'd say better than Triumph yeah way better cut like way more flexible and yeah I guess more potential to kill I don't know Triumph just kills every time that's so like you said a chroma's will is probably better and I you can even argue that's why some of the other overruns it's like creatures and it's instant speed like sorcery on Triumph is but that is done either way over around this blender trying for the hordes crater hoof like that is dead I think Triumph is still one of the best overrun effects like yeah I still like if you're saying well it's just overwhelming Stampede and stuff but like I don't run over roaming Stampede I run drive from The Horde so yeah because that's because it's really good that's because you're trying to make people salty with your internet no I think it's genuinely a better card if you're a dirty plague near player Tomer we know we know the governor in fact we know you'll love it that's okay Behemoth which I think a lot of us would say is the best overrun effect yeah actually it's saltier it's instead of so trying for The Horde has a 1.59 is near the bottom near the mid is crater hoof Behemoth 1.7 um and yeah it's just we would I think a lot of people would say crater Earth is probably overall the best overrun effect yeah especially because it's a creature um and it does it does it show up it's like it's it's more popular than Triumph as well for sure there there's some I think I actually looked at that uh crater hope seven percent Triumph six percent overwhelming Stampede also six percent so the slightly more popular but they're in the same range but I do agree that it's like it's more powerful it is the best one so you think it's just a power level thing like the two best overruns are salty or do you think it's like do you think infect is part of why we see Triumph on there I think people hate it in fact yeah but I I despise in fact but like what yeah like I I just Skittles me to death like multiple times that was that was because it was the dragon the New Year's Eve or New Year's resolution thing play something that you wouldn't normally I don't play in fact normally like you might have scitherex in one of your paper decks I I have it in my uh my dragon deck but I don't play it it's not it's not a uh it's not a commander right like I I actually just and plus I play with cards I despise all the time but like I myself just like dislike in fact but whatever I've even been open about it with Seth in like our our other podcast I wouldn't I don't think I'd mind if they brought it back into magic like to be honest like non-step I mean I'm gonna be honest here I don't even care if they brought it back into magic so I would I would be very disappointed I I don't think they will because people genuinely hate it even in 1v1 but I would like to see it come back and and then we just raised a poison counter from 10 to 20. yeah I mean they got a fixed version right new cards do sometimes add poison counters but it's like one at a time like yeah [Music] the original version is actually the the fixed version somehow I mean that blight steel is 1.96 and like pretty high on the list but no one really plays it uh probably bags up the fact that people just like really don't like dying to in fact because it only shows up in like two percent attacks I don't think I've ever actually died to play Stealing Commander what satoru oh wait I think I think maybe just killed us if we were wrong literally a one shot right like if you get if you get hit by a blight still you're dead is this a one hit you're gone so I don't know I feel like I feel like people don't like infect but also these are by far the most powerful versions like you don't see skit the Ricks the other Rick's really does four that's true on the list like when we say oh this is the most powerful version people usually hate the goats like uh Cristiano Ronaldo for soccer players yes I don't I don't watch or follow soccer but I hear people hating on him but you can't deny that he's insanely good but as soon as you're the best like creator of Behemoth for example you're bound to get some hate and I think we should see this list probably with the tracks as well like if you're a insanely popular and good you automatically have haters I guess yeah well in fact it's definitely a thing here okay there are some cards here that are just the best at what they do uh so this is also a thing to consider yeah okay it is definitely yeah I think is is the highlight of what of your of your argument I think like fastest Oracle does not deny anybody anything it's not like any resource now whatsoever um and yet fastest Oracle shows up in the top ten is this is this just because it's the strongest win condition in the format surely like because there's no like there's no lab Maniac on the battle on I feel like it's just like the least satisfying it's popular and it's like the least satisfying win like it feels like you win without actually doing anything it's just such a Jank out the entire table way to win the game [Music] if I feel like that's part of what makes it so salty because like come on dude come on man like play Magic don't just don't just do that does anybody play thusas Oracle Outside of cedh even and in c8h so it shouldn't be a thing right I mean so at least do not some of these do not see any play whatsoever like Devastation is 10 000 or sorry 1 000 uh submitted decks for for comparison's sake like winter orb which is another card I rarely see has 19 000 deck submissions in it so like some of these cards are like they're they don't show up so I don't know but this one actually does 80 000 X which is actually a lot that's actually that's actually a lot a lot that's I mean it's every CDH deck right it's got them on to something it's gonna be CDH It's gotta be like but like outside of CDH I I do play classes Oracle my merfolk deck as they just it is just a verbal okay nice cry with that and I I think I played it one time and the whole day was like oh do you have a way to combo with I'm like no no I'm just am I almost I mean I'm gonna play Lord of Atlantis and hit you with it like okay that's my combo I feel like that's got to be so wrong because I will probably attack you on principle because you played one three that's not even very good but I mean yo it's cries all right okay give it like it's a a sort of an auger bullets there's one card that I'm actually surprised is is so salty like I get it but like also I was surprised that it's up here cyclonic Rift I scored a 2.32 so it didn't make the top ten but it's like top 13. um and it's it's 280 000 decks oh it should be higher that shot definitely is the popularity of it it is very effective it's a very it's possibly the best board wipe that's like outside of like MLD right but like it makes me a little bit salty just like being instant speed only impacting your opponents like everything's fine got the hand size yeah just throwing the hand size getting rid of all your cool things while your opponent untaps and like goes off and probably wins ah I don't know it makes facility so I can see it and it's another card you see a lot like like you were just saying some of these cards are super salty but they're so salty that you don't actually see them very much because people are kind of just like self-selected them out of most commander games cyclonic Rift is one of those cards that you see all the time which I think makes it a little bit worse because you actually experience the salt of it unlike some of these other guards yeah like I haven't been in I have it in zechu and uh my Mac Titan deck I'm now wondering maybe I should take them out like wow yeah yeah it's just like it's the best if you're a blue you run it right right yeah can you just run it in blue right but like but why would you take that out I don't I don't understand I don't know I think you're like a hypocrite because I don't run risk studying I hate risk studying aristoc studies 25 000 which is also like crazy high sorry note 200 sorry 250 000 X is 251 000 decks so it's like less popular than cyclograph but while a cyclograph doesn't really bother me that much rusek study definitely does like it it's it of all the cards here the only one that actually gets me Solitaire so now I feel a little bit of a hypocrite that I'm running it's like longcraft but not risk study the thing about tectonic Rift it feels too easy to like of course a lot of cards are too easy to win with like that's probably the problem with but it doesn't I mean Creator yeah that's the problem if you don't win wait but you never want to play Magic why wouldn't you want the game to be going so maybe it's my I think I've played it zero times so far and I will never play it in the future so I probably keep that zero the problem is every time a cyclonic Rift gets cast everybody says Ah okay cool have your fun now it's not like anybody says oh that was clutch wow what a cool answer to this problem no no you just bounce everything end of turn not everything of course it's like the only thing I get if uh Thomas said I played in zedro at least there's some Synergy with the commander if you give them your hands and then you pick them up so I would say oh yeah at least it makes sense but man cyclonic Rift is so boring it's like too easy why is it instant speed and only second man I mean I don't know I feel like that just aligns with play Styles right I I don't even think this card is like bad at all like I've been rifted you know Seth rifted me like recently yeah it happens all the time rely on permanence I still do oh I don't understand where this y'all know that Planeswalkers and things are still permanently thank you it's just the I think this is a very powerful ketchup card it doesn't like if you're behind it allows you to catch up I don't see them one time but if you're ahead yeah like if you're and you win the game then then it is a win con I don't see it then why why what is the problem with it it doesn't win Okay so but it could win right like you just mentioned you could win the game right so let's add the card next to it on the assault scale into this conversation because I'm curious if you play that one which is Dockside extortionist which is exactly the same salt score also a staple and it's a card that I got a copy of because I bought the cycle of pre-cons when they were on sale so I just instantly have a Dockside I did put it into one of my decks and then I took it back out of the deck because it just didn't feel I I never came away from the games where it showed up feeling like it was satisfying or that the table had a good time with that card and to me that same feeling kind of exists for cyclonic rip that same thing like oh sure I won like I am but I don't come away from it feeling good about it so should we consider those cards uh even though they work very differently should we consider them in the same way or oh I don't know do you play one and not the other what do you guys think about the comparison there Dockside is the only card I wouldn't play on this like pretty much like like outside of the LD instead of like like Dockside I think is is not the same to me as cyclonic rift at all we're we're talking about like a solid ketchup card this is like this is absurdly broken this is absurdly broken I have to spend seven man at this iconic riff right you spent two mana and that's not even accounting for the numerous other things that'll happen uh like like oh God this card is so far ahead of everything on this list I think outside of like LD stasis winter orb sure leave that at the top but like for me this card is just leagues ahead of everything else on this list but at some point like from the community overall they view it the same based on these rankings like maybe that's your personal little preferences but apparently thousands of people have graded these cards and overall the commander Community views them as exactly the same yeah so I've never done I've never been salty about riff but Dockside like I had in my my culture deck I took it out because yeah just like it's too good and I think all these cards are fine by the way in terms of like certain play groups I wanted to I want to just like clarify that like all these cards are totally fine if you're playing high power commander or even if you're playing low-powered Commander um as long as your table is on board with it right yeah we're talking about like generalized like mid power level tables casual Commander especially when we were playing against strangers like in a pickup game like this is where the salt skill is actually applicable if you're playing high power if you're playing CDH obviously like these this does not apply whatsoever we're talking specifically about like casual Commander with her own groups or just you know with pickup games I mean in person I would probably just laugh if somebody slams down a tabernacle or something I think that's something completely different like if I play in my play group and somebody just sneakily whips out a CDH like I said to say yeah you know what you did so that's fine like the pickup games uh the uh where the assault scale comes into you uh relevance but I think Dockside extortionist and psychonic breath being rated the same is just because they are all in the same rating system because Dockside is just too powerful like it doesn't stop your opponent from doing anything except for playing I guess because you probably win the game pretty soon after yeah magic yeah technology just negates everything your opponents did and it doesn't really help you I guess and Dockside is like dark side is power level the other one is annoyance solid and I think that's just two very different things uh just like the card next to it is wizard doesn't really do anything that stops the opponent from doing something but yeah oh yeah yeah if you account for this but otherwise it just goes infinite and your opponents have to watch you yeah what I mean I'd play it with that if I had one honestly I'm not picking that out of my neckline I don't care about the salt scooter I'm keeping it in there full hypocrite mode I I do not I will not run extortionist or risk study but I'm absolutely jamming her as a I find that I know I know there's there's no I I this is kind of like a shocker slash wake-up call for me because like I always found Rift as like it's very powerful but fair it's seven Mana yeah the dark side is like this is like absurd and then Earth is like yeah it's busted with winter orb and stuff and it's a very good card in general but like I don't know I'm still running in my 99 though I I I hers is even salty in the 99 I've never been salty about a 99 or is uh playing well you just you just came across like winter orb oh my God winner or but how did you feel about me dropping that urza that game I it didn't bother me honestly I was the zero zero assault score for that play out of the 99. yep yeah zero assault score for me I mean I I obviously Earth is absurd and broken like very powerful but like all right well like but like not even but then there's like Dockside is just leagues ahead of all of this so like every like they're the but the next thing down from a dark side would probably be like like 50 steps below that's true it is pretty far off the curve I I got another another question for you this one switching topics again one other thing they mentioned in that video that you were talking about Tomer was the biggest gainers insult this year were treasure cards uh old nobones shot up like almost a whole point Prosper went from almost not salty to 0.88 Zorn Gold's band Reagan basically a lot of cards that have the treasure mechanic shut up do you think these cards are actually salty or is this an overreaction to the conversation that's been going on in the community about is Wizards printing too much Treasures is this mechanic even healthy like have they went too far do you think it's a little bit of recency bias where people are voting based on like that conversation in the past year or are these cards actually salty like to me old my bones to me that doesn't seem like a salty card at seven Mana you're gonna have other creatures to attack with like but shut up baton that's one of the biggest gainers so what do you think about Treasures in this big increase I think it is a bit of recency bias because everything in the last couple of years had like it doesn't matter if you blink it it makes a treasure right like it does whatever you do it makes a treasure um so there's just everything comes with a Lotus pedal and I think that that is kind of why people are just upset uh about it but do I actually think these cards are that busted I don't think old knobbones that busted I don't think Zorn okay gold span is is very good but I I don't think like a gold Span in the game of just old school like yeah yes anything associated with treasures essentially yeah [Music] it's like none of these uh are in the top hundred though they all increase but they still fall outside of the top hundred yeah the highest one was old narbone at 1.41 currently uh which is just uh the the top 100 cuts off at 1.56 uh Prosper is the highest treasure Commander at .88 so it's still not cracking the top 100 but a big jump from 0.19 the year before some things I think people are just fatigued but treasured this year and I think the salt of these cards are gonna go down in a year from now because wizard of the coast also I believe acknowledged recently that they went a bit too far with treasures so I think just the fact that they went like super ham in the last year with treasure mechanics is people just are fatigued with they're tired of it and it's showing up a lot in Commander because these are recent cards so people are playing old knob wound not just because it's a really good card but because it's recent and people want to try it out Prosper is the most popular commander in rakdos so odds are if somebody butts out a rack those deck prospers what you're going to be playing against um I so so I think that will also color people's opinions on that because if you're just playing against treasure decks all the time you'll probably be a little bit more tired of treasure decks and and just just for comparison in terms of rack those commanders number two is Anya Falcon wrath at 3716 decks can anybody guess how many Prosper decks there are in EDH rack double that like it's it's got to be a huge number I saw the number so yeah ten thousand Prosper next the difference between one and two is more than triple like yeah that's pretty well yeah it does because Prosper is the strongest is one of the strongest commanders they print there I I thought I I think it's like it was it was it actually Gavin and Melissa both said there was a design mistake so it is yeah I think it's a little bit overly pushed but also people like things that are very powerful like inherently so there's a correlation there so yes it's a but I think people would be tired of being like Prosper like oh I cast this from Exo I make a treasure oh I use the treasures I make another treasure make another treasure make another treasure and you're just like please please stop I want my turn I wonder if the card can get salty just because you see it so much you're talking about just how many Prosper decks there are I've noticed that happen in other formats we were pretty diverse with how we played Commander because we're playing different decks every week so we're always seeing different uh things but I know sometimes in standard there's cards that aren't even that good but they just show up all the time that I end up getting a little bit annoyed with not because they're too good just because you see them too much so I wonder if that's part of what goes on with like the big increase from Prosper or even some of those other commanders we talked about earlier like says like maybe it's not like oh that card's miserable maybe it's just like oh my God I'm kind of tired of this because I see it all the time like place on the second ones it's songs as soon as it's on the radio like as soon as you hear it a lot or even worse if you thought you were the only one finding this band and then oh wow now they're popular no I don't like it you throw away your t-shirts ooh I I got one more question about this we talked about Treasures going up Tomer something a group of cards went way down in the past year that I think is very interesting what were those cards um so uh there was a big controversy about a year ago when uh Wizards of the Coast announced universes Beyond which we're going to be taking IPS and collaborating and putting them on Magic the Gathering cards and the first one they went with out of all the IPS they could go with they went for a a TV show that um that does not have a lot of cross cross potential of Magic the Gathering players and probably would have been more receives back in its prime a decade ago but that was The Walking Dead cards it was a secret lair Walking Dead uh mechanically unique cards uh that showed all your favorite Walking Dead characters as a mechanically unique magically Gathering cards uh for a limited time duration sale I mean people did not like them they did not like it very much and uh the salt score of last year showcased that there was uh people were very upset about them and considered them all very salty cards and I think that was more an indicator of the fact that people don't like the price product rather than they don't like the card mechanics themselves and they all went down like significantly in salt where they're not even cracking the 100 anymore they all went down by at least point six percent or 0.6 points um and and I think it seems like the community is just kind of over it like they don't really care about walking dead cars or universes Beyond cards as like assault Factor anymore or or at least the ones who did they've they've quit the game and they no longer participate in these surveys so it's one of the other it's a frowny thing yeah what do you all think about these cards and insults change they they were never like like a salty thing for me um I I think the concern was how they were released they were the first right I think that was the issue they were the first I think of their their kind with like you know the universe beyond style stuff uh so naturally they draw the most hate I it was just unfortunate for them uh like whatever the franchise was like unless it was like maybe like d d or something like that but like that's yeah that's like splitting hairs but it makes sense that would make sense but like the first the first drastic like like secret layer uh or or whatever Universe to be on style product was walking dead so it was like bound to fail like or at least or something why did they go walk Walking Dead still running at this point okay to go yeah yeah it's a zombie of what it used to be let's just start it's ending though but it's got like it's got like a spin-off I I mean I watched the show enough uh but like I mean yeah like for the most part I this this as a magic product uh definitely upset a lot of people but I think it's just because it was the first of its kind so I think people have warmed up to it and people who are like really upset about it they left and also they also walked back that thing where they said like these are gonna be mechanically unique deal with it now they said we're going to reprint these as in Universe options and we're going to keep that for all secret lair versions of universal Beyond two however it has been two years and we have we don't know when when these cards are working yeah we haven't seen those yet they did say they would but I mean you mentioned dead cards or is it for future products so initially they said for future products then they came out and said oh good news we're gonna do it for The Walking Dead ones too but we haven't actually so we got the ones for stranger things yeah yeah but we didn't get Walking Dead I mean that's classic Wizards right they just say something and then make one announcement or like with the arena economy hey you can buy wild cards overpriced and now even the overpriced bundle is gone and now we are back to where we were but hey they did the stream they are now they addressed it don't you do it oh yeah and then I guess it worked for these cards like people are not salty about them anymore I think it also just gets tiring there's so many things for people to be salty about and so many products and so many secret layers that it's just really tiring to care about all that stuff so there's so much going on now that I wonder if some people just like went from being actively salty about it to just being like whatever like kind of apathetic it's me at this point like that person like we have Transformers cards coming out with the brothers warp draft or not draft Racers the collectors and and set boosters I'm not a fan of that there's like post Malone secret lyrics I just got announced like those are all so cool okay I mean you're the you're the Target demographic for me me I'm like like I don't like universes Beyond so I'm mildly salty at the idea that they did this but like am I gonna be upset that you bring out Glenn the voice of car calm like at a table no I don't care I'm too tired to care that's that's where it comes down to I'm just too tired play what you want yeah if you want to kill me like uh quip Rainbow Dash to I don't know the the Dreadnought from Warhammer 40K and then you dab me with the Triumph of The Horde fortnite skin I'm just go for it now there's tonight's in the game you can definitely floss you have every every you can fluff you can floss after you dunk somebody I think imagine and I want that Shrine from the hordes I want the before I I unironically want the Triumph from the horse for night skin it's just so I can I can if I really want to assault somebody out yeah it's already on the salt scale and it's a fortnight universe is beyond let's go to be super high can you imagine like in a year from now we should have enough cards for like a universe is beyond just that commander deck and you could just literally just kill people with fortnite cards you know what I want to do based on this podcast is just build like assault scale deck where I just put like the top 50 cards and then Mana rocks and ramp and just like yeah that is kind of a crimp deck isn't it I I actually do have a kenrath five color hate deck that is just like but it kills itself yeah I blood moon myself out of the game but it's like all the hate parts and I I choke myself [Laughter] uh all right I uh wrapping this back around to like the real world we talked a little bit about if you should change your commanders based on this salt score should we be bringing these up in the rule zero conversation like let's say we go to Vegas we're playing with random people are we under an obligation as Commander players to be like hey guess what I get a fierce guardianship in my deck hey you know what I got a cyclonic Rift in my Decker you know there's a dranath magistrate or an ulamog or whatever should we be doing that is is that something we should be addressing to make sure that everyone is you know having the same expectations and having a good time I wouldn't look to this list for every card because again salt is can can get very subjective there's only one thing that you see reoccurring through this right that and and it is manager like land destruction and like like orbs right the stasis kind of effects those are the ones that I think you should probably mention because they are redundant throughout this list everything else I think is a bunch of misers I think counter spells are just whatever I like sure I guess it is redundant there are three but or four but people just don't like counter spells anyways uh so I I don't know I I think the only things you need to bring up are land destruction like hey I've got armageddon's in this and hey I've got stasis effects that's it don't care what about anything else what about X returns I feel like most of the extra turn Spells at Z player on the list like there there are several of those does that get it up near the like MLB area or no it it it's on its way and I can I can see why uh like it's it's close uh but I wouldn't be like exactly like upset with you if you're like oh by the way I'm taking all the turns uh and I hate extra shirts I I despise it I would not play them I don't even play extra turns so uh like this this isn't a thing like there's there's just I just don't think it matters enough like just LD and like Forbes like uh well it's interesting because I'm actually I value your opinions more than me because uh when I do like a rule zero I just basically kind of I kind of lump all these salty cards that's like not not cool like people might not be happy about it if I brought it like a like a low power table but if we're playing like high power uh I assume like these cards are all free free game as well as like Combos and stuff so like I usually ask like hey what what power range are we looking low mid or high and then from there like if I were picking low I will not run these cards I I just don't have a low power deck so it's either it's either medium or high yeah but you have a more fun Dragon deck so oh so high power I It's tricky because some of these cards are Staples like do you really need to say I got smothering tithe every single game like I just expect that people probably have some othering time because it's like one of the most played cards on the other end I know when I was in Richmond and I was just playing random games with people I had a deck that had Fierce guardianship in it and a few times I did mention it while we were like talking about what we're playing like yeah the next not very strong but like just so you know it's Gotta you know if your guardianship in there I I don't think it would be wrong for me not to do that in every case but sometimes it felt right to do that depending on the people I was playing with and what I thought they were playing and their expectations for the game so I don't know if there's a hard and fast rule where you like everything in the top hundred you got to bring up every time but I think it's something to be aware of like that many people apparently consider these cards to be salty so just something to be conscious of as you're having those conversations Maybe I kind of wouldn't want to know anything about the opponents like that yeah kind of it's the appeal of Commander you see the commander and if the command has not said well they're probably going to play some extra turn spells and they probably won't play a winter up just for fun so they are stack stack and yeah they can tell you I'm a Stacks Kenworth deck or whatever but otherwise I wouldn't want to know if they have free counter magic that kind of takes the whole point out of it if they say oh be aware I run fours of world and fears Guardianship and then I'm sitting there oh yeah I really like then the accountant may be without even countering me because now I play around them even if they don't have it especially with these free spells I really don't want to know it like the contents of your deck but I do want to know what deck you're running like if you if you want to run narset then I'm not going to bring like my six drop tribal deck you know because because um you're just this is not going to be a really game so like if you want to run narset I'll bring a more powerful deck that I feel can can be a worthy opponent at the table same thing with like urza but yeah I don't really care if you're like you know if you're writing like obliterate and stuff I feel like I I trust you to know not to ring bring that to like a low power table and just surprise me with with stuff you want to showcase I don't know but tell me your commander like if you're kovals I'm not gonna bring like garbage I'm not gonna bring zedra out to to do that I'll bring something like a little bit more uh powerful I mean because everyone wants to have a good game so having like a little basic information I think helps helps achieve that goal because it's not very fun just to like stomp like I don't know play a really bad deck against a really good deck like no the person really good that doesn't feel good and the person with the back deck doesn't feel good but yeah I don't know if you got to go card by card like that would be like a little bit extreme I I think if the if you know somebody gets easily upset by certain cards then like I would I would just avoid writing those those decks like as a courtesy to them but like generally speaking I wouldn't be like oh I have temporal Mastery in this deck you know like yeah it's on the salt scale like whatever I mean Tempo or Mastery is like extra turns you can't feel good about playing extra turns in commander in general itself cyclonic riff is just salt inducing much like Seth had mentioned earliest because one of those cars people everyone has one it's just like if you have blue you play it simple as that I I say the same thing about risk exciting I don't like that's true I mean for the most part I think that rustic study does go in about almost like 80 of blue decks 90 of blue decks but not all of them but I think we put it in which ones wouldn't I put it in yeah I don't play it in some of the decks like that just example like I don't play it in my Rogues deck I don't think it does anything it just I don't know it doesn't really matter there's cards uh but you could do that with your anawan like do I need a draw cards better than anyone that's the problem no but I can just kill you instead like it doesn't kill you like that's the main thing like I don't know it kills my sense of self-worth and fun well okay if I'm against you I know it kills you at least on the inside so you win the emotional battle immediately yeah but like it itself doesn't exactly further some of my more aggressive or temporary blue plans true you should probably still play it I don't know if there's a blue deck I would not play heuristic studying honestly it just seems like it's so so strong I don't have it in any blue decks except for my CDH deck but like if I wanted to make my deck better I'd put it in every single one I think yeah I don't think whatever I don't know I don't want to dwell on on risk exciting anyway um but at Vegas speaking of Vegas I am bringing my chaos deck so if anyone wants to play this for sure I have a thing it's called respecting my time I can't make it sorry that that's like if you see me it's like the secret menu in and out just say you want the secret menu oh there's there's an interesting one here that I I have actually shocked that it's so high uh we have some Planeswalkers like narset part of our veils I totally understand why it's salty people don't like getting wheeled and having their hand discarded there's a couple cards that I think are falling to like do not make me discard my own cards like censure Blitz I think maybe mineslaver probably falls upon the same thing where it's like you can take my turn but like I don't like it that you're wasting my own cards that's not cool but that there was this is this one okay this two actually looks kind of cute well one I kind of understand but it's a fairy time raveler I am shocked each of uh it's a very time remember it's a three fairy a three Mana uh it's a fairy each Pony kid uh can cast spells only uh when they can cast sorcery so you can't cast instance on like you know non-sorcery speed um this one is high salt 1.81 this beats out like ruination uh man of Vortex like a bunch of MLD effects like this one is is up there because a lot of people like it this is like hating demographic right now they're they're just like oh how about this car every single male storm Wanderer deck is like Mass down voting this card I mean well if you think about it though what does the fairy do it basically says you can't defend yourself from all my counter spells like that is the primary uses like oh I play to fairy sure maybe you could try to do like veilism or something to get to resolve your thing or counter me back but no it's just like the control player gets to be super extra miserable so I can see why it's salty and I think like I think part of it comes from 60 card formats too because the one that really shocked me is just like five cards ahead of to fairy is OKO thief of crowns which in Commander is like a completely unsalty card for me it's like a beast it's like a card it's like a Beast Within though like it's just a removable spell I'm not gonna get salty about that but in 60 card formats oh my God okay was like so broken and salt-inducing so I wonder how much of this is like bleed over from standard players or modern players or whatever who like have a memory of these cards being so brutal in 60 card formats and they're they're voting based a little bit on that because I know is alko actually salty is like really good at multiplayer OKO are not even on the salt meter like they shouldn't even be on the salt meter I don't think it's salty but it's I think it's like I think you should be running OKO way more than it currently is played because it starts at three Mana for loyalty so you can very easily get it out on turn two at a green deck because you do like turn one elf turn two Oco and it's it plus ones it plus ones let's say Target Commander does nothing and then you have to kill you have to kill that Commander to just recast it that you have to go through an extra hoop it becomes a 3-3 elk with no abilities so it's worse than dead it has to sit there it has to sit there as a stupid 3-3 elk and then you have to kill it in case you want to get it back and like in Commander where your commander is usually everything like that's I think the same reason why Janet magistrate is so high it's like so many people build their entire deck around their Commander existing turning into a 3-3 elk and then having to like kill it just so you can recast it it's probably like it's like it's really good I think and then you could you could do oku puns oh that's the best part just Planeswalkers I think in general I feel like are such an odd thing to have on here like it they're just not like that good like as unless you're a Super Friends deck right like I play one Miser Planeswalker you know like it's kind of underwhelming and all that happens is everybody just hits it and then it's like cool I spent my turn doing that um I I just don't think Planeswalkers are that Sultan doozy I mean I think OKO and like to Ferry are good okay it's not even sold inducing either I don't know I mean it's not even under this list I mean yeah one of my personal emotes I'm using cards and Commander I I only would win the fall I think no not just it just I hate cars that say hey you're behind and you have constant uh designed to get you back from behind that draw your cards or something but not set says no and then you have these ridiculous misplays like I did with them or something and realized that the game is over I I was I was joking I said you could draw with amanatu and then you're like oh yeah yeah dude but but yeah like I those cards I don't understand like why they're on here a narset I can get it like assuming I'm not even like adding the wheels to this like just Nars it on its own I could see why some people would be upset because it's just a passive that you a lot of things just naturally do right nowadays everything draws a card so I could understand that and I I see why Seth would this would just be sets like natural like the worst right it really is but outside of that like I don't see why any of these Planeswalkers should be on here like no Planeswalker should really be on here I kind of think all of them have a place they are kind of easy to deal with if you have creatures obviously a plate walk as a car type isn't really that solid in Commander but the effects on them are pretty good like OKO is way way better than a Beast Within uh and yeah it's a fairy is just awful like if you can't deal with it and you want to resolve a combo or something like good luck it's not gonna happen is pretty good too like it's not Nars that wheel your hand away annoying but it's still like once you play against it you'll be amazed at like how much stuff that you think your deck can do that it just can't do when it's fairies on the battlefield hmm just keeping people playing Fair magic that's fine I mean sure yeah yeah like I I don't understand like the this is another thing that just like absolutely blows my mind and why it keeps climbing up the salt scale is drawn with magistrate I'm sorry oh what didn't you see how salty we got in the game when you played it against us all out of doing anything like I feel like we actually wait wait wait wait salty in that Commander Clash episode or was that Richard was it Richard who played it someone played it and it like just completely locked me out of doing anything like my deck was built around my commander I couldn't play my commander no one could kill it because I thought it was you because I thought they loaded it up with protection so it was like never gonna die that does sound like something I would do because because it is I played in my humans deck but otherwise I don't think it's like that good cdhs obviously it's amazing it's another like your deck can't do what it wants to do like that's the common theme of all these cards and Commander decks a lot of them are built around their Commander under the magistrate just says oh for two Mana you can't play your commander and I know you can kill it and get it off the battlefield I get all that stuff but I mean cards that keep people from executing their game plan are what make them salty like that is the the biggest the biggest takeaway for me of this list so I can see why people get salty about granite's magistrate yes take away that some people should just like be like be extremely prepared right like like I I genuinely believe that there is uh like no reason why this card should be as absurdly like high as it is it is so high on this list I think an extra point with Janet's Mega straight is that if you're on a table and two people care about it or it was only you care about this like oh I can't cast my commander but the other one's already cast their command and they say why would I deal with it like yeah and you're just sitting there and just please I don't have an answer to let's do something at the other end I don't care about this and there's probably else adds to this because especially like the thing even though it stops you from playing your commander but the thing magistrate does is pretty narrow once your Commander's out you can't cast cards from like you can future side cards or something right it's just not from your hands well it makes like cross products yeah and Prospect decks get hated out but it's not like yeah this is all the Prosper players I know kram always has a sneaky foretell card in his stack it seems like every week he tries to slide one into the foretell Zone without anyone noticing so I don't even say anything well done I gotta I gotta ask you about one other card I I know we're getting near the end of the cast but divine intervention ain't Mana if it sits on the turn on the battlefield for two turns you remove the counters the game ends in a draw there's a lot to win the game cards none of those outside of thousands Oracle which we already talked about show up on this list so it's not like people get salty because you have an ALT win condition necessarily is drawing the game just inherently salty like is that the issue with this card because it's horrible and it doesn't even see play it's in zero percent of decks why is this ranked relatively highly 1.66 on this whole score so I remember I don't think it's salty I think it's hilarious but I remember I got a whip I got a draw not a win I gotta try I act I use this ability successfully I succeeded on in drawing the game out with divine intervention in a commander Clash one of the very first ever when Jake in season one and Jake was so mad he was like frothing with rage at the idea oh thank you because it wasn't it's not technically a win it's a draw it's trolling blah blah blah blah and like so I can understand there is there is some negative feedback on like you're not winning you're drawing the game it's a waste of time but I think it's hilarious I I think every I don't know why this is salty everyone buddy this is casual magic see nobody lost everybody had a good size I don't understand why this is on the song scale bro that's not cool nobody lost you're upset about me winning the game well how about I don't win the game I don't understand I genuinely don't understand this this should be on every like you know command Fest command Zone like poster this should be on every deck box this should be reprinted like a soul ring this everyone's a winner yeah every nobody's a winner all right there's a reason why we play this nobody is a winner and and what you play Magic it hits all the check boxes for casual magic yeah I want to play Magic I don't want you to win like I don't understand I don't understand I don't understand it is very anticlimactic though you gotta I don't know about that the Countess went and now the game is over and while I would just say hey I won fight me yeah if they did a reprint of this card not a real reprint but a reprint of this card were instead of saying uh the game ends in the drive says you win the game do you think people would be salty about it boring no boring and people wouldn't even play it I don't think that would be playing the draw version anyway but no it goes against the spirit of casual Commander I'm sorry [Laughter] one question about list before we end this so there's an agent of treachery on here sure that's because of you well just does that mean because of cut that's not on here blatant theory is okay I I read out of this it's not on here so no probably way worse oddly I imagine to cheat to Blink to Blink right like like I can't blink a blatant thievery uh and yeah it's a lot easier to like cheat this into play sure I mean both of them are just super fun and fine I love that I love them both like please it's so great and it's a rogue oh sure that's why I'm playing and and my favorite thing personally is that I need to get an altar of it I want it to be the Resident Evil 4 uh arms dealer dude but what are you buying like he looks just like it so it's perfect I mean it's a it's a minor assault for me because it's like oh you're killing me my own stuff like boo but like I don't know I just learned to respect it a lot more like Homer path isn't all my commander decks now that Phil joined I found it funny when I stole a Homeward Pathways you took the homework path and said of like the thing that I didn't want to take right but it's like okay but in my blink deck or my almanati deck I don't mind like okay cool I've done I've gotten the first thing out of the way yeah it's a buffer uh at the worst it's a buffer at the shield count it's like it's a shield camera or you play it after something got sworn that's like the best it's like somebody like bribery to you or like rise of the Dark Realms and you like Homer path it's like yeah remember who cast rides the dark Realms what we have all our creatures back so how about it I I hope I think about it in the right moments because yeah these effects are getting more prevalent and they are pretty good but it's kind of why that blatant thievery should be like technically this is a lot of salt right looking at the table and saying oh I take this and this and this the best of everyone that should be super salty but it's not on here so I guess it's the context of blinking agent of Twitter which is pretty powerful kind of love it but it was just blatant Theory I would say yeah this is super salty and I just play it anyways um I just wanted to mention nothing I guess you are more okay with these effects it's like the expropriate is is uh exception here because it's in the top is uh number six on the list yeah I mean you could just you could just allow them to blame a thief every three times it's fine actually no it has to be one extra turret and up to up to three I mean you can choose the so you always yeah well the well so so you always choose an extra term the person who casts it because if you vote for uh money you just take a per you can take control of one of your own terms and then your opponents let you either take extra turns or take one of their things I think that's what makes it salty though I I think playing thievery is like minor very minor solid for me I I think it's fine though you can play it nice year now what like I think the last thing for me is like years now removed right from whenever Commander Legends came out opposition agent is up here why I hate this wow do you ever play fetchlands it combines Mana denial with like I don't know it's hard like it's 10 triplets in Armageddon and all that not Armageddon but like a land destruction spell mixed together MLD kind of like if you have if you have like freshlands in your deck and you just can't crack them because you have a odd position on the battlefield one just three minutes I'm sorry I think it's a little bit it's too pushed but like I don't know I have to push I think I know you compare that to what's a even mine sensor you compare that to even mind sensor and every month is like an absolute joke compared to this sure I should have been four Mana but like I I think that this card is I I think there should be more of these I don't even think that no I I want I want more ways to shut down like tutoring yeah yeah I agree but I want it to be back breaking I want to be like no no no not a slight like like tap on the wrist I want it to be like full on like you will never tutor again at any time you wake up in a cold sweat when you think about even tutoring again you want you want a card that will Dethrone stasis card next year I want something else like I want I've mentioned I want a two-man opposite change I want I want an opposition agent at every point of the Curve opposition that costs no Mana if you have your commander out how about I agree that's good I I like where you're going I like where we're building on what we're building on your Delmar I like it get that idea into the like r d right now because I love it I just save anybody in places is listening no please don't yeah don't listen to Grim do not let tutoring run rampant and that is an emphasis on ramp like I I if you play land destruction if land destruction is a big No-No please let me just shut them down at least be let me just continue to dunk on on cultivates and Etc no no no it's like I am so happy that I just play when when cream wasn't on clash and you could just play all the things oh beautiful it wasn't all cash I managed to do The Cauldron win so it's not even that he has it I don't know how many people would come into my stream chat be like Crim I don't know what's happening this season the cat the crew is just like resolving things really really they're not against me but there's joy in their eyes they seem to be enjoying Commander we need you back check out my challenges they're having too much fun we need to get back on now we're just assembling caulder that day when you assembled cauldron this would have never happened well all right so we talked about the saltiest cards in the hrec again if you want to check out the entire list yourself we're going to have that Linked In the article and also uh Joey's uh really good uh YouTube insights the video on that where he talks about like which cards I got salt like what were the differences between this year and last year he did a good analysis on that and we kind of expanded on that with uh discourse um and also just let us know what you feel uh are your saltiest cards well and and the reasoning behind that like what do you what do you think about our takes on on the salt uh the assault score what do you think about rule zero would you want to discuss any of these cards before playing a game and sitting down with like especially with pick up games of strangers how do you approach that let us know in the comments section below as always thanks so much for listening like And subscribe and all that good stuff until next time friends see ya

Channel: MTGGoldfish Commander

Views: 45,540

Keywords: Magic the Gathering, MTG, EDH, Commander

Id: QqQifacZLZM

Length: 90min 2sec (5402 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 25 2022