(♪♪♪) >> Announcer: "THE AGENDA" WITH STEVE PAIKIN IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS, PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM. >> Jeyan: LIVING TO THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 100 ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. TONIGHT, WE'LL FIND OUT WHY IT'S MORE COMMON THAN EVER. AND WHAT SHAPES THE QUALITY OF LIFE PEOPLE HAVE. ALSO, WE'LL SIT DOWN WITH THE AUTHORS OF A NEW BOOK THAT ARGUES THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO WITH CANNABIS LEGALIZATION AND THE FIGHT FOR RACIAL JUSTICE. IT'S THURSDAY, JUNE 22nd. AND THAT'S AHEAD ON "THE AGENDA." (♪♪♪) >> Jeyan: CANADIAN CENSUS DATA OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS SHOWS THAT MORE OF US ARE REACHING AND SURPASSING 100 YEARS OF AGE THAN EVER BEFORE. WITH US NOW ON WHY, WHY IT MATTERS TO EVERYONE AND WHETHER IT'S AS GOOD AS IT SOUNDS, IN AMES, IOWA, PETER MARTIN, PROFESSOR AT IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY SPECIALIZING IN LONGEVITY, AND THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE INTERNATIONAL CENTENARIAN CONSORTIUM. AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, PARMINDER RAINA, SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR OF THE McMASTER INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH ON AGING, AND LEAD PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR AT THE CANADIAN LONGITUDINAL STUDY ON AGING. AND ANGELA ROBERTS, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR AT WESTERN UNIVERSITY AND PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR FOR THE SUPERAGING RESEARCH INITIATIVE IN CANADA. ANGELA, PARMINDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US IN STUDIO, PETER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONLINE. SO BEFORE WE GET INTO OUR CONVERSATION, LET'S TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE DATA WE JUST MENTIONED. SO IN 2016, THE SHARE OF CANADIAN SENIORS SURPASSED THE SHARE OF CANADIAN CHILDREN. SO YOU CAN LOOK AT THE DEPRAVE HERE. THE RED LINE, AS IT'S TRENDING UPWARDS REPRESENTS SENIORS. AND THE BLUE LINE IS THOSE AGE ZERO TO 14. TODAY, ONE IN FIVE CANADIANS IS 65 OR OLDER. OUR CENTENARIAN POPULATION INCREASED BY 16% BETWEEN 2016 AND 2021. TODAY IT SITS AROUND 10,000 TO 11,000 PEOPLE. BUT BY 2061 AS YOU CAN SEE IN THAT PHOTO RIGHT THERE, RIGHT AT THE TIP, ONCE THE BABY BOOMERS REACH OLD AGE WE COULD HAVE NEARLY 100,000 CENTENARIANS. CENTENARIANS WERE RECENTLY THE SECOND FASTEST GROWING POPULATION IN CANADA. RIGHT BEHIND THOSE AGED 75 TO 79. PETER, I'M GOING TO COME TO YOU IRRELEVANCE IF. YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING CENTENARIANS AROUND THE WORLD FOR NEARLY 35 YEARS. IN WHAT COUNTRIES ARE PEOPLE LIVING THE LONGEST? >> Peter: TYPICALLY JAPAN LEADING THE BACK OF THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CENTENARIANS. EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE OFTEN IN THAT GROUP, TOO. I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT LIFE EXPECTANCY, CANADA IS IN THE TOP 22. IT'S HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST A LITTLE FASTER IN ASIAN COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY JAPAN. >> Jeyan: YOU MENTIONED JAPAN. JAPAN IS OFTEN DESCRIBED AS THE BEST PLACE TO GROW OLD. THEY HAVE A PHILOSOPHY THAT ONE SHOULD TREASURE LIFE NO MATTER WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN PRACTICE? >> Peter: IT MEANS THAT A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT IS PUT INTO CARE GIVING, OF TAKING CARE OF THE OLDEST. PEOPLE IN THEIR 80s, 90s AND CERTAINLY 100s. THAT NO AGE IS TOO OLD FOR JAPAN. REALLY, LIFE IS TREASURED AT EVERY MOMENT FROM LIFE TO DEATH. HOW LONG OF IT MIGHT BE. >> Jeyan: YOU MENTIONED AS WELL, YOU ARE PEAN COUNTRIES. I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT ARE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND JAPAN DOING RIGHT? >> Peter: AS I INDICATED. CARE GIVING IS AN IMPORTANT PART. YOU HAVE TO INVEST IN YOUR HEALTH AND MEDICAL CARE. SO BASICALLY THERE ARE TWO PRONGS. YOU HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS YOURSELF. EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, JAPAN, ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE ACTIVE, TO BE WALKING, WHEN COMPARED TO AT LEAST TO THE UNITED STATES. AND, OF COURSE, IF THINGS DO GO WRONG, THERE IS IMMEDIATE SUPPORT FOR YOU AND THAT'S MUCH MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN IN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THAN IN ASIAN COUNTRIES. CERTAINLY IN JAPAN. >> Jeyan: I SHOULD MENTION THE TOP THREE PEOPLE THE OLDEST PEOPLE RIGHT NOW ARE IN SPAIN, JAPAN AND THE U.S. AND I'M COMING TO YOU ANGELA. BECAUSE YOU HAVE A STUDIED THE VERY OLD IN BOTH THE U.S. AND CANADA. BRIEFLY, WHAT FACTORS COME INTO PLAY WHEN EACH COUNTRY'S SOCIETY ADDS OR SUBTRACTS FROM THEIR ABILITY TO LIVE TO 100? >> Angela: FOR US, THE CANADIAN COHORT IS REALLY NEW FOR US. WE'RE JUST BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE UNIQUE SOCIAL FACTORS THAT MIGHT AFFECT AGING AND AGING WELL IN CANADA. BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE STUDY WE'VE DONE TO DATE, LARGELY WITH PEOPLE IN THE U.S., SOME THINGS THAT STAND OUT TO US ARE THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS TYPICALLY EXPERIENCE LESS BRAIN ATROPHY THAN DO TYPICALLY AGING FOLKS WHO ARE AT THEIR AGE, SO 80 AND OVER IN OUR CASE. BUT WHOSE COGNITIVE ABILITIES ARE AT AGE NORMAL. SO KEEP IN MIND OUR ELITE AGERS, OUR SUPER AGERS ARE PEOPLE 80 AND OVER WHOSE COGNITIVE ABILITIES ARE LIKE THOSE IN THEIR 40s AND 50s. AND INDEED WHEN WE LOOK AT THEIR BRAINS, THEIR BRAINS ALSO LOOK LIKE PEOPLE IN THEIR 40s AND 50s. SO THERE ARE SOME UNIQUE SOCIAL FACTORS AS WELL. IN TERMS OF GOOD SLEEP HABITS, READING. LESS TELEVISION. HIGH SOCIAL ENGAGEMENT. WE'RE FINDING SOME OF THE SAME PATTERNS IN OUR CANADIANS AS WELL. WHAT'S UNIQUE FOR US HERE IS THAT WE HAVE MORE SUPER AGERS WHO ARE MARRIED TO ONE ANOTHER AND WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT PHENOMENON. IN OUR U.S. STUDIES THAT'S NOT THE CASE. OVER HALF OUR COHORT IN CANADA ARE HUSBAND AND WIFE COUPLES COMING TOGETHER FOR THE STUDY. >> Jeyan: VERY INTERESTING. I DO WANT TO PICK UP ON THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CANADA. WALK ME THROUGH SOME OF THOSE SORT OF SOCIAL BUT ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS AS WELL. I UNDERSTAND THAT AS CANADA WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME MORE RURAL AREAS, POSSIBLY POLLUTION MIGHT BE A FACTOR AS WELL. TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT. >> Angela: ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE REALLY FOCUSED ON IN THIS NEXT STUDY -- WE'VE HAD TEN YEARS SO FAR OF ADDING OUR CANADIAN COHORT IN 2021-22. SO WE'RE JUST STARTING THAT PIECE. BUT WE'RE INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT HOW CAN THE CANADIAN SOCIETY AGING GROUP HAVE EXPERIENCED LIFE DIFFERENTLY FROM THOSE IN THE U.S. PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF ENVIRONMENTAL TOXINS, STRESSORS, MOVEMENT AND MOBILITY AS PETER MENTIONED IS SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S DIFFERENT IS ON THE U.S. SIDE, MOST OF OUR CENTRES ARE LOCATED IN URBAN AREAS AND OUR OLDER ADULTS THERE, WHILE HAVING EXPERIENCED ANING A RARIAN SOCIETY, THE U.S. INDUSTRIALIZED AT A MUCH EARLIER TIME THAN WE DID IN CANADA IN TERMS OF LARGE INDUSTRIAL CENTRES. FOR US THERE IS AN INTEREST IN LOOKING AT HOW AN AGRICULTURAL LIFE, EXPOSURE TO CHEMICALS OR LACK THEREOF IN TERMS OF CANADIAN REGULATIONS AS OPPOSED TO U.S. REGULATIONS MIGHT AFFECT THESE AGING TRAJECTORIES. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT. PARMINDER, YOUR LONGITUDINAL STUDY ON AGING HAS BEEN TRACKING 50,000 CANADIANS ACROSS 10 PROVINCES. WHETHER IT COMES TO BIOLOGY VERSUS ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS A BIG QUESTION A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW, GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO LIVE TO THOSE ELITE AGES. >> Parminder: IT IS A DIFFICULT QUESTION. THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE 0 OLD AGE. I JUST WANT TO QUALIFY ONE THING I'M NOT A BIOLOGIST I'M AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST WHO WORKS WITH A LOT OF BIOLOGISTS AND OTHER DISCIPLINARY -- OTHER DISCIPLINES, PEOPLE FROM OTHER DISCIPLINES. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BIOLOGY, BIOLOGY DOESN'T WORK IN ISOLATION. BIOLOGY WORKS IN RELATION TO OUR CONTEXT AND WHERE WE LIVE AND HOW WE INTERACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE. SO BIOLOGY DEFINITELY HAS A ROLE, HOW WE LIVE. THERE ARE CERTAIN GENETIC PREDISPOSITIONS THAT PUT US ON THE RIGHT TRACK. BUT THOSE COULD ALL BE MIRED INTO PROBLEMS IF WE DON'T LIVE WELL OR IF WE ARE NOT HAPPY, IF WE'RE SOCIALLY ISOLATED OR ENVIRONMENTAL CONTEXT IS POOR. SO IF WE START TO JUST FOCUS ON BIOLOGY, WE'LL BE MISSING A PIECE OF THE PIE. SIMILAR, IF WE JUST FOCUS ON CERTAIN ASPECTS WITH THE DAY-TO-DAY LIVING AND NOT LOOK AT THE BIOLOGY, WE'LL BE MISSING THAT PART OF THE PICTURE AS WELL. >> Jeyan: PETER, I WILL GET YOUR TAKE. SAME QUESTION TO YOU. I THINK AS A PUBLIC WE PROBABLY WANT A CLEAN LINE OF HOW MUCH OF OF A PER CENT IS BIOLOGY, HOW MUCH IS ENVIRONMENT, WHAT CAN WE CONTROL. BUT GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO LIVE TO THESE ELITE AGES. >> Peter: I CAN ONLY SECOND WHAT WE'VE JUST HEARD. BOTH BIOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENT ARE IMPORTANT. WE HAVE TARGETED A NUMBER OF GENES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH LONGEVITY. BUT WE ALSO NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT GENES NEED TO BE TURNED ON. THEY NEED TO BE EXPRESSED. IN THE CASE OF DISEASES, YOU DON'T HAVE DISEASES IN CHILDHOOD THAT ARE THE SAME -- THAT YOU FIND IN LATER LIFE. SO THESE GENES NEED TO BE EXPRESSED, THEY NEED TO BE TURNED ON. AND SO THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT COMBINATION OF LOOKING AT GENES AND ENVIRONMENT ALL TOGETHER. THEY REALLY DO -- IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE TO LOOK AT BOTH. AND THAT'S WHY MOST GERONTOLOGISTS WORK IN INTERDISCIPLINARY TEAMS SO WE CAN LEARN FROM EACH OTHER IN IMPORTANT WAYS. THEN I WOULD SECOND ALSO THAT LONGEVITY AND AGE SOMETHING A HIGHLY INDIVIDUALIZED PROCESS. THERE ARE MANY WAYS -- MANY PATHWAYS UP THE MOUNTAIN. AND WE'RE TRYING TO FIND THAT SECRET OF LONGEVITY. BUT IF THERE WAS ONE, WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE FOUND IT. THERE IS NOT JUST ONE. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ASPECT THAT CONNECTS TO LONGEVITY AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO FIND OUT: ARE THERE ANY PATTERNS THAT ALLOW US TO LOOK AT LONGEVITY AND AGING AND AGING WELL IS REALLY THE GOAL FOR GERONTOLOGISTS TO WORK ON. >> Jeyan: HERE I HAD A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS THINKING I COULD GET ALL THE SECRETS FROM YOU. BUT WITH THAT, ANGELA YOU MENTIONED SUPER AGERS. WE WANT TO MAKE A DISTINCTION HERE BECAUSE YOUR INITIATIVE FOLLOWS 500 UNIQUE SUPER AGER CANADIANS. AND YOU DO LOOK ACROSS THE U.S. AS WELL. >> Angela: THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH. >> Jeyan: WHAT IS A SUPER AGER? IT'S DIFFERENT FROM SOMEONE WHO IS GETTING OLDER. THERE IS SOMETHING OBVIOUSLY IN THE BRAIN AS WELL. >> Angela: FOR THOSE OF US WHO DO THIS WORK, WE THINK OF ELITE COGNITIVE AGING AND YOU CAN DESCRIBE IT EITHER BY COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS SO HOW MEMORY IS GOING AS THEY AGE OR PHYSICAL FUNCTIONING. OUR STUDY IS REALLY LOOKING AT THOSE ELITE COGNITIVE AGING FOLKS. SO OUR YOU STUDY HAS 100-YEAR-OLDS IN IT AS WELL BUT REALLY THE EARLIEST AGE FOR US IS 80. PEOPLE WHO ARE 80 AND OVER WHOSE MEMORY ABILITIES LOOK AS GOOD AS OR PEOPLE IN THEIR 40s AND 50s. AND THEN LIKE MY COLLEAGUES HAVE TALKED ABOUT WE LOOK AT GENETICS, BRAIN STRUCTURE AND FUNCTION AND ALL OF THEIR BEHAVIOURS TO TRY TO SEE WHAT DEFINES THEM DIFFERENTLY. WE DEFINE OURS BASED ON CHRONOLOGICAL AGE. AND 80 IS KIND OF OUR ENCALGARY POINT. >> Jeyan: WITH SORT OF WHAT YOU AND PARMINDER HAVE SAID I DO WANT TO ASK THIS QUESTION. I KNOW IN YOUR RESEARCH YOU HAVE SO MANY ANECDOTAL STORIES OF WHAT PEOPLE HAVE DONE AND WHAT THEIR SECRET IS. IS THERE ANYTHING SPECIFIC I SHOULD BE EATING BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING THAT THIS IS THEIR GO-TO MEAL. >> Angela: YES. SO THE ONE THING I WILL SAY THAT I THINK ALL OF US WILL SAY IN OUR AREAS OF WORK AND OUR SUPER AGERS AREN'T ANY DIFFERENT. THE BEST PHONE CALL IS THAT FIRST PHONE CALL. A RECRUITING CALL FOR THIS STUDY TAKES US ABOUT 90 MINUTES BECAUSE YOU WILL HEAR THEIR LIFE STORY STRAIGHT UP. AND SO I WILL SAY THAT THEY EACH ARE INDIVIDUAL. BUT THEY SEEM -- MANY OF OUR FOLKS SEEM TO HAVE METICULOUS EATING HABITS. AND WE HAVE ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO'S EATEN TWO BRAN MUFFINS IN THE MORNING, AND NIGHT EVERY DAY SINCE HE WAS IN HIS 20s. IT'S HIS RECIPE. HE MAKES IT. THAT'S HIS PARTICULAR HABIT. >> Jeyan: HOW OLD IS HE? >> Angela: HE IS 94. WE HAVE OTHER SUPER AGER WHO IS ARE OTHER EATING NUANCES, EXERCISE NUANCES, SLEEP HABIT NUANCES. WHAT THEY ALL CAN TELL YOU IS HOW THEY THINK THEY GOT TO THIS POINT. AND THAT REAL UNDERLYING FACTOR FOR ALL OF OUR SUPER AGERS IS THE SENSE OF RESILIENCE. PERSONAL RESILIENCE FORMED IN CHALLENGES BUT ALSO PERSONAL RESILIENCE THAT COMES FROM HAVING A STRONG SUPPORT AROUND THEM. SOCIAL SUPPORTS, FAMILY SUPPORTS, SOCIETAL SUPPORTS. >> Jeyan: WITH THAT, I WANT TO PULL UP A PHOTO AND INTRODUCE YOU ALL TO JAN COMEAU BORN IN 1875, THIS FRENCH WOMAN HOLDINGS THE RECORD FOR BEING THE OLDEST HUMAN BEING EVER. AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE PHOTO SHE IS HOLDING THE LITTLE DIPLOMA THERE. SHE DIED IN 1997 AT THE AGE OF 122. I WANT TO SHOW ANOTHER PHOTO. BECAUSE THIS IS QUITE INTERESTING. THIS IS HER CELEBRATING HER 117th BIRTHDAY. YOU CAN SEE SHE'S ENJOYING A SMOKE AND A LITTLE -- I THINK A LITTLE SHOT THERE. PETER, I CAN ASSUME WHEN PEOPLE THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE 117, YOU PROBABLY ARE NOT A SMOKER BECAUSE WE KNOW MANY STUDYS HAVE SHOWN THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE BEST THING TO DO TO GET THERE. I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT. >> Peter: WELL, IF YOU ASK WHAT IS THE NUMBER ONE HEALTH BEHAVIOUR THAT PREDICTS WHETHER PEOPLE LIVE A LONG LIFE OR NOT, IT IS NOT SMOKING. A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF CENTENARIANS WE HAVE STUDIES ARE SMOKERS. EVEN JAN COMEAU WHO I KNEW WELL AT THE TIME ONLY SMOKED OCCASIONALLY. FOR THE CAMERA, AS IT WERE. SO SHE WAS NOT A FREQUENT SMOKER AS IS OFTEN PORTRAYED. WE LIKE TO SEE THOSE IMAGES BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE DEFYING ALL THE ODDS BY SMOKING BUT IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD RECOMMEND. IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT I COULD RECOMMEND TO PEOPLE TO LIVE A LONG AND BETTER LIFE AND IN PART WHY WE HAVE HIGH LIFE LIFE EXPECTANCY IN MANY COUNTRIES WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO CONTROL THE LEVEL OF SMOKING. SO IT REALLY IS A CLEAR OUTLIER IF YOU FIND SOMEONE WHO REGULARLY SMOKES AT THAT AGE. >> Jeyan: I DO WANT TO FOLLOW UP WITH YOU, PETER. IT'S BEEN MORE THAN 25 YEARS AND NO HUMAN BEING HAS SURPASSED HER AGE. MEANWHILE HERE IN CANADA LIFE EXPECTANCY IS 81 YEARS AND STAYED PRETTY CONSTANT OVER THE LAST DECADE. DOES THAT MEAN WE'VE HIT A HARD CEILING WHEN IT COMES TO THE HUMAN LIFESPAN? >> Peter: THERE IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE EXPECTANCY AND LIFESPAN. THE LIFESPAN LIKE YOU SAW IN JAN COMEAU, WE'VE PROBABLY REACHED THE CEILING. BECAUSE AS YOU INDICATED, WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT TO 116, 17, 18. BUT THEN NOBODY SEEMS TO GO MUCH BEYOND THAT. AND JAN COMEAU WAS SORT OF AN OUTLIER THERE, TOO. LIFE EXPECTANCY IS REALLY THE AVERAGE OF WHAT PEOPLE CAN EXPECT TO LIVE. AND REALLY IS A MEASURE AT BIRTH. SO WE HEAR ABOUT 81, THAT MEANS IT RELATES TO NEWBORNS THIS YEAR OR LAST YEAR, WHENEVER THE STATISTIC IS GIVEN. THAT HAS TIPPED TO INCREASE EXCEPT FOR COVID. SO WE'VE TAKEN A FEW YEARS BACK. CERTAINLY MORE IN THE UNITED STATES THAN IN OTHER COUNTRIES. BUT IT WILL CONTINUE TO SLOWLY BEGUN BUT NOT AS DRASTICALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT 120 YEARS AGO IF YOU WERE BORN IN 1900, LIFE EXPECTANCY WAS ONLY 46 YEARS. SO WE'VE MADE GREAT STRIDES IN INCREASING LIFE EXPECTANCY HAVING OBTAINED A SECOND LIFE, IF IF YOU WISH. BUT THE GAINS WILL BE MUCH SMALLER OVER TIME SO A HALF YEAR, YEAR, TWO YEARS AND THEN PROBABLY ON AVERAGE IT IS GOING TO REACH A CEILING UNLESS WE FIND SOME OF THAT MAGIC GENETIC CODE THAT MIGHT HELP US MAKE ANY CHANGES HERE. >> Jeyan: I WILL PICK UP ON THAT. PARMINDER, WE TALKED ABOUT THE GENETIC CODE. COULD THIS CHANGE IF WE WERE ABLE TO GENETICALLY PROGRAM OURSELVES DIFFERENTLY? >> Parminder: I WILL PICK UP ON SOMETHING THAT PETER MENTIONED. AND I THINK HE IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT IN SAYING THAT WE HAVE REACHED OUR POTENTIAL. AND THERE IS A LOT OF DEBATE IN THE LITERATURE. SOME PEOPLE DO PROJECTIONS AND THINK WE WILL LIVE UP TO 140, 150, 160. BUT DATA DOESN'T SHOW IT. PARTLY BECAUSE YOU NEED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THOSE AGE GROUPS TO PREDICT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. AND THE EVIDENCE IS NOT THERE. THERE'S VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE IT. THESE ARE OUTLIERS WE'RE TALKING B THE SECOND THING BEFORE I ANSWER THAT QUESTION, I ALSO WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A CONVERSATION -- IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT LONGEVITY. IT'S ALSO ABOUT HEALTH SPAN. HOW WE LIVE. AS LONG AS WE LIVE, WE WANT TO LIVE AS HEALTHY AS POSSIBLE. I THINK, UNLESS WE FIND SOME MAGICAL BIOLOGICAL NUGGET THAT CHANGES THE FUNDAMENTAL BIOLOGY OF AGING, WE ARE GOING TO STRUGGLE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO EXTEND LIFE. AND DOES WORK HAPPEN? YOU NEVER KNOW WITH SCIENCE WHAT CAN HAPPEN. BUT SO FAR THAT HAS BEEN A DIFFICULT CHALLENGE TO ACHIEVE. EVEN THE MECHANISMS OF AGING, BIOLOGICAL MECHANISMS, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MECHANISM THAT ALLOWS YOU TO AGE. THE MULTIPLE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING. AND I THINK THE MORE -- MORE AND MORE, IN THE MAINSTREAM GERIATRICS AND GERONTOLOGY FOCUSES ON HOW DO WE INCREASE THE HEALTH SPAN. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT. ANGELA, I WILL COME TO YOU. YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING A SPECIAL CENTENARIAN LIVING IN CHICAGO. WHAT MAKES HER SO UNIQUE? >> Angela: WHAT MAKES HER SO UNIQUE IS THAT SHE STILL HAS HER VIBRANCY AND HEALTH. EDITH IS 108 BUT SHE IS REALLY THE POSTER REPRESENTATION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO AGE WELL. SHE STILL COOKS EVERY DAY. SHE IS A DIRECT DESCENDENT OF ENSLAVED PEOPLES WHO CAME TO THE NORTHERN U.S. ON THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD. AND SHE CELEBRATES LIFE AND SHARES THAT HISTORY. AND I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ALL DRAW SUCH A JOY FROM IN OUR WORK. THE WORLD BENEFITS FROM OUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE BIOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL CONTRIBUTIONS IN TERMS OF HELPING FOR HEALTH SPAN AND LONGEVITY SPAN. BUT THE OTHER IMPORTANT SOCIETAL CONTRIBUTION OF THESE ELITE AGERS, SUPER AGERS IS THAT THEY HELP US UNDERSTAND OUR HISTORY. THEY CAPTURE FOR US THE LIVING TIME CAPSULE THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO LEARN FROM. AND REDUCE THE STIGMA OF AGING AND EDITH IS DOING THAT. SO SHE'S ON TELEVISION FREQUENTLY. SHE ADVOCATES FOR OTHERS. SHE JUST HAD A BUILDING AT A UNIVERSITY NAMED ON HER BEHALF. NOT JUST BECAUSE SHE IS OLDER OR LIVED IN THIS HEALTHY WAY BUT SHE'S BROKEN AREAS BARRIERS IN HER LIFE IN RACE AND EQUITY. THESE ARE THE FANTASTIC THINGS THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS OFFER TO US. STUDYING THEM IS IMPORTANT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. MOST IMPORTANTLY, BECAUSE THEY HOLD OUR HISTORY IN HAND. >> Jeyan: PETER, I DO WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AND WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A CONNECTION. DO POOR PEOPLE LIVING IN POOR CONDITIONS ALWAYS LIVE SHORTER LIVES THAN THOSE WHO ARE MORE FORTUNATE? >> Peter: PROBABLY ON AVERAGE. BUT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOOKING AT A POPULATION ON THE AVERAGE RESOURCES THAT THEY HAVE AND THAT MAY ALLOW THEM TO LIVE A LONG LIFE. BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY EXCEPTIONS. WE HAVE INTERVIEWED CENTENARIANS IN RURAL GEORGIA, RURAL IOWA. AND SOME OF THEM IN THE SOUTH HAD NO REFRIGERATION AND LIVED UNDER VERY POOR COMPANIES -- POOR CONDITIONS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT ANGELA SAID EARLIER, IT'S THAT RESILIENCY. IT'S BEING ABLE TO MAKE DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE THAT IS SO IMPORTANT. AND SO ANOTHER EXAMPLE HERE OF THERE'S NOT ONE PATTERN, CERTAINLY IT HELPS TO HAVE RESOURCES. IT HELPS TO HAVE -- TO LIVE IN BETTER CIRCUMSTANCES. BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT SOMETIMES ALSO COMES WITH MORE STRESS. AND SO, AS ANGELA SAID, JUST ENJOYING LIFE, THE WAY YOU ARE AND SEEMING ROOTED IN YOUR COMMUNITY COUNTS FOR A LOT NO MATTER WHAT THAT COMMUNITY LOOKS LIKE. >> Jeyan: ANOTHER FACTOR THAT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, PETER, AND WE SEE THIS HERE IN CANADA AND OTHER COUNTRIES IS LIFE EXPECTANCIES BETWEEN THE GENDER LINE. WOMEN TYPICALLY LIVE LONGER THAN MEN. WHY? >> Peter: THEY TAKE BETTER CARE OF THEMSELVES. WHEN I GIVE PUBLIC PRESENTATIONS I HAVE SOME MEAN IN THEIR 60s, 70s OR 80s. I DO TELL THEM BEHAVE MORE LIKE WOMEN AND HAVE YOU A BETTER CHANCE TO MAKE IT TO 100. AND THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO SEEK HELP, TO SEEK MEDICAL CARE. MEN ARE STILL SORT OF THINKING THEY CAN WORK IT OUT THEMSELVES. WOMEN HAVE BETTER SOCIAL SUPPORTS. THEY TALK ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS. SO THERE'S AN EMOTIONAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL COMPONENT TO IT, TOO. THERE IS A LOT THAT MEN CAN LEARN FROM WOMEN IN TERMS OF NOT ONLY LIVING LONGER, BUT AS PARMINDER SAID, ALSO TO HAVE A HIGHER QUALITY OF LIFE AND INCREASING HEALTH SPAN. JUST BY TAKING BETTER CARE OF THEMSELVES. >> Jeyan: PARMINDER, THE CANADIAN HEALTH SYSTEM IS UNDER A LOT OF STRESS. IS IT READY TO HANDLE THIS UNPRECEDENTED INCREASE IN SENIORS? WE SAW THE PROJECTIONS OFF THE TOP. IS IT READY? >> Parminder: I THINK IN ORDER TO ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED. THE CURRENT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED IN THE EARLY 60s. OUR AVERAGE AGE OF THE POPULATION WAS 28 OR 29. OUR AVERAGE AGE IS NOW 42, 43 RIGHT NOW. AND SO THE ACCUSE CARE SECTOR DIDN'T HAVE AS MUCH BURDEN WHEN THE POPULATION WAS YOUNGER. IF WE'RE GOING TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF WHETHER IT'S THE HEALTH CARE DEMANDS OR THE SOCIAL CARE DEMANDS, WE JUST CAN'T DESIGN HEALTH CARE AROUND HOSPITALS. WE HAVE TO MOVE THAT INTO OUR COMMUNITIES. HAVE COMMUNITY STRUCTURES AVAILABLE. 70 TO 80% OF THE OLDER PEOPLE LIVE QUITE FUNCTIONALLY IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES N. THEIR OWN HOMES. THEN THERE IS 20% WHO HAVE SOME ISSUES BUT THEN THERE ARE 7 TO 8% WHO HAVE COMPLEX NEEDS. SO WE HAVE TO MAP OUR CARE SYSTEM IN RELATION TO THE NEEDS OF THE POPULATION. AND I THINK GOVERNMENTS HAVE MISSED THAT OPPORTUNITY. THE PANDEMIC HAS SHONE A LIGHT ON THAT, THAT THE PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT IT. BUT STILL WE HAVE A LONG WAYS TO GO UNLESS WE HAVE A GOOD, STRONG COMMUNITY CARE SYSTEM, OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN ITSELF. BECAUSE ON AVERAGE, SOME OF THE DATA THAT HAS BEEN GENERATED IN ONTARIO, IF YOU HAVE TO PUT AN OLDER PERSON IN A HOSPITAL FOR A DAY IT COSTS $1,500. IN THE COMMUNITY IT COSTS $250 TO PROVIDE A GOOD SERVICE AND PEOPLE LIVING IN THEIR OWN HOME, INTERACTING WITH THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES AND HAVING THE SOCIAL LIFE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE. I THINK THAT'S THE CHALLENGE. AND SYSTEMS ARE BIG JUGGERNAUTS. IT'S HARD TO SHIFT THEM. AND GOVERNMENTS ARE STRUGGLING HOW TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. AND THERE ARE INTERESTS IN THERE. NURSING INTERESTS, PHYSICIAN INTERESTS, OTHER INTERESTS THAT COME INTO PLAY. I THINK IT IS A COMPLEX ISSUE. IT IS A COLLECTIVE EFFORT THAT IS GOING TO BE NEEDED. I JUST WANTED TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING IF YOU ALLOW ME THAT PETER HAD SAID. I THINK, IF WE LOOK AT AROUND THE WORLD, THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE HIGH LIFE EXPECTANCIES ARE THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DONE VERY WELL SOCIOECONOMICALLY. THE SOCIAL DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH HAVE ACTUALLY LED US TO REACH THESE EXCEPTIONAL LIFE EXPECTANCYIES. IT IS AN AMAZING, REMARKABLE ACHIEVEMENT OF THE MODEL PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM THAT SANITATION AND BETTER FOOD, DISCOVERY OF PENICILLIN, REMOVAL OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, THAT HAS ALLOWED US. AND AS PETER MENTIONED, ON AVERAGE, SOCIAL DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH, INCLUDING SOCIOECONOMIC FACTORS DOES PUT YOU AT A DISADVANTAGE. SOME PEOPLE THRIVE IN ALL SORTS OF CIRCUMSTANCES. BUT WE CAN'T ALL BE LOOKING TO SOLUTIONS THAT ARE BIOLOGICAL. THERE ARE SOCIAL SOLUTIONS THAT WE HAVE TO THINK FOR SOME OF THESE CHALLENGES. >> Jeyan: ANG LAXER I WILL GET YOU TO PICK UP ON THAT AS WELL. WHAT DOES CANADIAN SOCIETY NEED TO DO TO CHANGE? >> Angela: I THINK FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT PETER AND PARMINDER HAVE SAID. THE IMPORTANCE OF MAINTAINING SOCIAL COMMUNITIES. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS AND WE KNOW THIS AS PEOPLE AGE, IS INCREASED SOCIAL ISOLATION. NOT NECESSARILY A SENSE OF INTRINSIC LONELINESS ALTHOUGH THAT CAN COME WITH IT BUT REALLY ISOLATING OUR OLDER ADULTS FROM ONE ANOTHER AND FROM A COMMUNITY THAT HELPS TO MAINTAIN VIBRANCY AND AGING. AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE BUILT HAS TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT. TO ALLOW MEANINGFUL CONNECTIONS NOT JUST WITH THEIR PEERS BUT INTERGENERATIONAL PROGRAMMING, BRINGING CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE TOGETHER WITH OLDER ADULTS, THAT IS HOW WE KEEP SOCIETY VIBRANT BUT IT'S ALSO HOW WE HELP INCREASE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR OLDER ADULTS. >> Jeyan: PETER, I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AND I'M GOING TO ASK THE QUESTION KNOWING FULL WELL, I MIGHT NOT MAKE FRIENDS WITH THIS AND MY MOM MIGHT NOT LIKE THIS QUESTION AS WELL. BUT IF THERE IS ONE COHORT THAT ALWAYS MAKES IT TO THE VOTING BOOTH IT'S THE ELDERLY. POLITICIANS KNOW THIS. THEY ENTICE THEM WITH TAX BREAKS. WOULD IT BE BENEFICIAL IF WE INSTEAD MADE SENIORS PAY MORE INTO THE SYSTEM AS THEIR NEEDS INCREASE AND OUR TAX BASE AND FERTILITY RATES SHRINK? >> Peter: IT IS A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE, OBVIOUSLY. I THINK ABOUT THE LIFESPAN CONTRIBUTION THAT YOU MAKE. YOU CANNOT WAIT UNTIL YOUR 60s AND 70s TO MAY MORE INTO A SYSTEM. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT MUCH EARLIER. IN MY CLASSES OF STUDENTS I ASK THEM TO ESTIMATE HOW LONG THEY'RE GOING TO LIVE AND THEN I GIVE THEM THE PROJECTIONS AND THERE'S A BIG GAP. YOUNG ADULTS DON'T EXPECT TO LIVE IN THEIR 90s AND MOST OF THEM WILL OR EVEN OLDER. SO YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION EARLY AND THROUGHOUT LIFE. AND THEN IF WE ALL DO THIS, IF WE ALL HAVE A COMMITMENT TO PAY UP IN TO YOUR 20s, 30s, UP INTO OUR 90s. CERTAINLY OLDER ADULTS SHOULD MAKE THEIR CONTRIBUTION TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY CAN BUT YOU CAN'T WAIT UNTIL LATER LIFE TO DO THAT. >> Jeyan: MUCH OF THE WORK THAT ALL OF YOU DO CONTAINS A REAL ELEMENT OF MYSTERY. WHAT'S ONE MYSTERY OF AGING THAT YOU HOPE THE HUMAN RACE CAN UNLOCK IN THE NEXT DECADE? >> Parminder: AGEISM. I WOULD SAY IF, SOME HOW, OUR SOCIETIES FIGURE OUT HOW NOT TO BE AGEIST, WE WILL MAKE AS I HAVE GAINS IN HOW PEOPLE AGE IN OUR COMMUNITIES. AND THIS WAS HIGHLIGHTED DURING THE PANDEMIC. WE HAD GREAT INTENTIONS, BUT PEOPLE WERE, IN CANADA, WERE SORT OF LABELING OLDER PEOPLE AS DECREPIT, THEY WERE IN LONG-TERM CARE, THEY'RE ALL GOING TO DIE. AND UNLESS WE CHANGE OUR ATTITUDE, WE CAN DO EVERY OTHER MIRACLE RELATED TO THE SCIENCE CAN PROVIDE IF THE SOCIETAL IMPRESSION OF WHAT IT MEANS -- AND PETER'S OPENING COMMENTS ABOUT JAPAN, THEY'RE VALUED. I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO THINK. IF WE DON'T DO THAT, THERE WILL BE INSTITUTIONAL BARRIERS, THERE WILL BE COMMUNITY BARRIERS, THERE WILL BE INDIVIDUALISTIC BARRIERS TO MAKING THINGS HAPPEN IN A POSITIVE FASHION. SO I WOULD GO WITH AGEISM. >> Jeyan: ANG LAXER SAME -- ANGELA, SAME QUESTION TO YOU. >> Angela: I DO THINK BIOLOGY IS IMPORTANT. ONE OF THE REASONS WE STARTED THE SUPER AGING INITIATIVE IS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING WRONG IN DEMENTIA AND PARKINSON'S DISEASE. I THINK IT IS ABOUT UNDERSTANDING NOT ONLY RISK BUT WHAT MIGHT BE PROTECTIVE FACTORS FOR THESE OLDER ADULT WHO IS ARE AGING IN SUCH A PRO-BUS WACOG THAT TIFFLY SO WE CAN -- SO WE CAN HELP PEOPLE ON THE OTHER END OF THE COGNITIVE SPECTRUM. >> Jeyan: I HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT. PETER, DO YOU WANT TO LIVE TO 100? WHY OR WHY NOT? >> Peter: I WOULD NOT MIND LIVING TO 100 IF I COULD STAY HEALTHY PHYSICALLY, COGNITIVELY AND SOCIALLY. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT, PARMINDER? >> Parminder: I WOULD GIVE THE SAME ANSWER. IF I'M HEALTHY, I WANT TO LIVE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO IN THIS WORLD. AND I LIKE TO BE PART OF THAT. BUT HAVING YOUR HEALTH AND ENGAGING WITH THE COMMUNITY, CONTRIBUTING TO THE COMMUNITY AND THIS IS RELATED TO AN EARLIER COMMENT, A QUESTION YOU ASKED, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY. OLDER PEOPLE CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR COMMUNITIES UNTIL THEY DIE AND I THINK WE HAVE TO VALUE THAT. AS LONG AS I CAN PROVIDE THAT VALUE, I WANT TO LIVE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT, ANGELA, YOU GET THE LAST WORD. >> I COME FROM A FAMILY OF SUPER AGING WOMEN SO MY ANSWER WILL BE YES, BUT WITH THE SAME THING IN A WORLD WHERE WE DON'T HAVE STIGMA AND AGING AND I CAN CONTINUE TO CONTRIBUTE. I'M HAPPY TO DO THAT. >> Jeyan: PETER, PARMINDER, ANGELA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. A GREAT CONVERSATION. >> All: THANK YOU. (♪♪♪) >> Jeyan: SINCE CANNABIS WAS LEGALIZED IN CANADA ALMOST FIVE YEARS AGO, FORTUNES HAVE BEEN MADE AND THE ENTIRE LANDSCAPE OF BUYING AND SELLING POT HAS TRANSFORMED. WHAT THAT LEAVES UNSAID, HOWEVER, IS THE RECOGNITION THAT COMMUNITIES DISPROPORTIONATELY HURT BEFORE THAT HAVE OFTEN NOT BEEN THE SAME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BENEFITED AFTER. "WAITING TO INHALE: CANNABIS LEGALIZATION AND THE FIGHT FOR RACIAL JUSTICE" IS A NEW BOOK THAT LAYS IT ALL OUT. WITH US TO EXPLAIN, THE TWO COAUTHORS. IN NEW YORK, NEW YORK, TAHIRA REHMATULLAH, WHO IS A PARTNER IN HIGHLANDS VENTURE PARTNERS AND CEO OF THE WELLNESS AND FITNESS COMPANY COMMONS. AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, AKWASI OWUSU-BEMPAH, PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, RACE EQUITY LEAD, CENTRE ON DRUG POLICY EVALUATION. WELCOME TO YOU IN STUDIO AND TAHIRA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THE LINE. AKWASI, I WILL START WITH YOU. HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN CANNABIS AS A POLICY ISSUE? >> Akwasi: I'M A CRIMINOLOGIST. SOMEONE WHO STUDIES INEQUALITY IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO THAT WITHOUT EXAMINING THE IMPACT OUR DRUG LAWS HAVE HAD ON FOSTERING AND DRUG LAW ENFORCEMENT ON BLACK AND INDIGENOUS AND LATINO PEOPLE NOT ONLY IN CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES BUT THROUGHOUT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. CANNABIS IS ONE OF THE MOST COMMONLY USED ILLICIT SUBSTANCES WHERE IT'S ILLEGAL AND ILLEGAL DRUGS. I COULDN'T DO MY WORK ON INEQUALITY IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM WITHOUT LOOKING AT CANNABIS. >> Jeyan: I KNOW THERE IS A FAMILY CONNECTION. EXPLAIN THAT TO ME AND HOW YOU GOT STARTED WITH CANNABIS POLICY. >> Tahira: IT STARTED REALLY WITH MY GRANDFATHER IN 2013. HE WAS DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 4 LUNG CANCER. AS WHAT HAPPENS OFTEN WITH PEOPLE WHO YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN YOUR LIFE WHO'S SUFFERING THEY WANT TO FIND SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP THEM. SO IT WAS ACTUALLY MY MOTHER OF ALL PEOPLE WHO STARTED DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH AND KEPT COMING ACROSS CANNABIS. THAT REALLY SPARKED AN INTEREST FOR ME JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND MORE. IT WAS 2013. THEY LIVED IN OHIO. THERE WASN'T ANYTHING AVAILABLE FOR THEM AT THAT TIME ON THE LEGAL MARKET. QUICKLY FROM THERE, I STARTED LEARNING A LOT MORE ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING. THE HISTORY FROM WHAT I KNEW AS A CHILD OF THE 1980s, NANCY REAGAN JUST SAY NO. AND REALIZING THAT A LOT OF THAT WAS INACCURATE FROM WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN THE WAR AN DRUGS. WHAT STARTED AS A RESEARCH PROJECT FOR ME BECAME MUCH ARE WHO OF A CAN A CAREER. >> Jeyan: LET'S GET A LOOK AT THE LANDSCAPE. CANNABIS HAS BEEN LEGAL IN CANADA FOR FIVE YEARS SINCE 2018. HAS IT BEEN A SUCCESS OR FAILURE IN YOUR EYES? >> Akwasi: OVERALL I THINK THE FACT THAT WE GOT LEGALIZATION TO HAPPEN HAS BEEN A MAJOR SUCCESS. BUT WITH MAJOR CAVEATS. FOR ME THE LARGEST ONE BEING THE IP EQUITY THAT EXISTS WITHIN OUR LEGAL LANDSCAPE. OUR PREVIOUS LAWS WERE ENFORCED IN A VERY INEQUITABLE MANNER. AS AS I HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE BLACK AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE RECEP ERDOGANED AND FEEL THE BURDEN OF PROHIBITION. BUT THEY'VE LARGELY BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE LEGAL LANDSCAPE AS BENEFICIARIES OR OTHER WAYS THAT LEGALIZATION COULD HAVE BENEFITED THEM THROUGH FOR EXAMPLE, THE REDISTRIBUTION OF TAX REVENUES. ON THE WHOLE I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY WE HAVE LEGALIZATION. IT'S AN IMPERFECT MODEL. FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS OF THE BUSINESS LANDSCAPE AT THE MOMENT IS CHALLENGING. WE STILL HAVE OTHER POLICY AREAS RELATED TO EXIST THAT WE NEED TO WORK OUT BUT BY AND LARGE AS THE FIRST SORT OF LARGE COUNTRY TO DO THIS I THINK IT'S BEEN OVERALL SUCCESS OF. >> Jeyan: A LITTLE DIFFERENT, TAHIRA, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE U.S. A BIT FRAGMENTED IN TERMS OF WHERE IT IS LEGAL. GIVE US A PICTURE FOR OUR VIEWERS HERE NORTH OF THE BORDER WHERE THINGS ARE WITH LEGALIZATION IN THE U.S. >> Tahira: ALTHOUGH WE DO NOT HAVE FEDERAL LEGALIZATION LIKE CANADA, WE DO HAVE 40 STATES THAT HAVE MEDICALLY LEGAL CANNABIS. WE HAVE 23 STATES PLUS D.C. THAT HAVE ADULT USE. SO THE MOMENTUM IS THERE. WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS FEDERAL POLICY IN ORDER TO ALLOW FOR COMPANIES TO OPERATE IN A MORE EFFICIENT MANNER, FOR BANKING TO BE MORE FLEXIBLE FOR ALL OF THE DIFFERENT BUSINESSES. SO STILL ELEMENTS OF IT THAT MAKE IT REALLY CHALLENGING DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO FEDERAL LEGALIZATION. BUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE ALMOST THE WHOLE COUNTRY MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION IS A POSITIVE SIGN FOR US. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO READ A PASS PRINCE GEORGE A BOTH OF YOUR BOOKS. THE WAR ON DRUGS, EVEN AS IT BOROUGHED DEEP INTO OUR CULTURAL FABRIC IS NOTHING MORE THAN LINGUISTIC SLEIGHT OF HAND. DRUGS ARE AN EXCUSE MORE HOSTILITIES BUT THE REAL TARGET IS THE CLASS OF NORTH AMERICAN SOCIETY BORN UNDER SIEGE. MAKE NO MISTAKE, THERE IS A WAR -- BUT IT IS RIDICULOUSLY ONE SIDED. THIS WAR IS WAGED ON THOSE WHO LIVE ON OUR MOST MARGINALIZED INNER CITY NEIGHBOURHOODS TRANSFORMED INTO URBAN BATTLE FIELDS BY THOSE WHO CLOAK THEMSELVES IN MORALITY WHILE TERRORIZING AND OPPRESSING THE RACIAL MINORITIES AMONG US. >> Jeyan: TAHIRA, I WILL PICK THAT UP WITH YOU HOW HAS THE WAR ON DRUGS MARGINALIZED MINORITIES? >> Tahira: THE WAY I LOOK AT IT WITH ACADEMIC EXPERIENCE UNDERSTANDING SO MUCH OF THE HISTORY WITH THIS AND THE RESEARCH WE'VE SEEN THE WAR ON DRUGS AND DRUG LAW ENFORCEMENT LARGELY AS A WAY TO ISSUE SOCIAL CONTROLS. SO A WAY TO REALLY FOCUS ON DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES THAT PERHAPS WANT TO, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENTS WANT TO FALL IN LINE OR THEY WANT TO HAVE DIFFERENT THINGS HAPPEN AND YOU CAN SEE THIS PATTERN THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF TIME BOTH IN THE U.S. AND CANADA. AND SO WHEN WE LOOK AT DRUG PROHIBITION MORE BROADLY, IT ALL KINDS OF LEADS BACK TO RACIAL ROOTS AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE WANTED TO POINT OUT AND REALLY ILLUMINATE BY WRITING THIS BOOK AND TO SEE THE ADJUSTMENTS THAT CONTINUE TO BE MADE IN ORDER TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE. >> Jeyan: AKWASI, WHEN WE ASSOCIATE THE WAR ON DRUGS WE THINK PRESIDENT NIXON AND THE 70s AND OBVIOUSLY THE U.S. WHAT ABOUT IN CANADA? >> Akwasi: WE'VE HAD A LONG HISTORY OF RACIALIZED DRUG PROHIBITION IN THIS COUNTRY. I THINK, YOU KNOW, MANY VIEWERS WOULD BE SURPRISED TO KNOW THAT OUR FIRST DRUG LAWS WERE, OF COURSE, ALCOHOL PROHIBITION WHICH APPLIED ONLY TO OUR INDIGENOUS POPULATION. WE REALLY STARTED OFF THERE. THE OPIUM ACT OF 1908 WAS DEVELOPED AS A DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE PERCEIVED ECONOMIC THREAT THAT THE CHINESE POPULATION WHO'D BEEN RECRUITED TO BUILD THE RAILROAD WAS POSING TO WHITE LABOURERS ON THE WEST COAST FOLLOWING THE COMPLETION OF THAT RAILROAD. AND, YOU KNOW, THE PASSAGE OF SUBSEQUENT DRUG LAWS INCLUDING CANNABIS IN THE LATE 1920s. AS WELL, HIGHLY RACIALIZED -- AT LEAST IN SOME POPULAR DISCUSSIONS. EMILY MURPHY WHO WE OFTEN CELEBRATE IS A NOTABLE CANADIAN WROTE EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE SUPPOSED THREAT THAT RACIALIZED IMMIGRANTS POSE TO WHITE PEOPLE BY AND LARGE THROUGH THEIR INTRODUCTION OF DRUGS AND DRUG USE TO THOSE POPULATIONS. SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, REALLY OUR EARLY HISTORY. AND THEN, UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T HAVE GREAT DISAGGREGATED INFORMATION BY RACE IN CANADA UNLIKE THE UNITED STATES. IT'S BEEN MORE CHALLENGING TO TRACE THE RACIAL DISPARITIES IN ENFORCEMENT. BUT WHERE THEY DO EXIST THEY DEMONSTRATE VERY CLEARLY BLACK AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE FIRST WITH THE PRONOUNCEMENT OF A WAR ON DRUGS IN CANADA AS WELL IN THE 1980s, DISPROPORTIONATELY LEADING TO INCREASED INCARCERATION OF BLACK AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND LEAD UP TO CANNABIS LEGISLATION WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN DATA FROM POLICE AGENCIES THAT SHOWED LITERALLY FROM VANCOUVER TO HALIFAX AND THE CITIES WE WERE ABLE TO GET THE DATA FOR THAT BLACK AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WERE GREATLY OVERREPRESENTED IN POSSESSION ARRESTS. EVEN WITH COLLEAGUES WHO I HAVE SHOWN HAVE DEMONSTRATED IN THE UNITED STATES DRUG USE PATTERNS ARE SIMILAR ACROSS RACIAL GROUPS. THIS IS A COMBINATION OF SOCIAL ASPECTINGS AND PRESENCE ON THE STREET BUT UNDOUBTEDLY RACIALLY DISPARATE ENFORCEMENT. >> Jeyan: I WANT TO PICK UP ON THE DATA. THERE WAS A LOT LACKING IN THE EARLY DAYS OF CANNABIS. THERE WERE CONNECTIONS WITH CANNABIS TO HEROINE AS A SCHEDULE ONE DRUG. DID AUTHORITIES TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF CANNABIS? IF YOU CAN GIVE YOUS SOME EXAMPLES AS WELL. >> Tahira: ABSOLUTELY. AND THIS REALLY HAPPENED DURING THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION WHERE THERE WERE SEVERAL STUDY THAT IS WERE DONE, A RANGE OF STUDY THAT IS WERE DONE THAT WERE COMMISSIONED. ONE OF THEM SHOWED THAT THERE WERE NEGATIVE IMPACTS FROM CANNABIS ITSELF ON THE POPULATION AND THAT WAS THE STUDY THAT WAS UTILIZED AS A TOOL TO THEN ENACT POLICY AROUND DRUG ENFORCEMENT. IT'S BEEN SELECTIVE OVER HISTORICAL TIMES. AND WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST THAT CERTAIN POPULATIONS ARE THEN AFFILIATED WITH CERTAIN KINDS OF DRUGS. WE HAVE CHINESE WITH OPIUM. WE HAVE BLACK POPULATIONS WITH HEROIN. WE HAVE MEXICANS WITH CANNABIS. AS YOU LOOK AT HOW THESE POPULATIONS HAVE BEEN JOINED TO CERTAIN SUSPECTS, THIS HAS REALLY BEEN BENEFICIAL TO FOCUS ON DATA THAT COULD POTENTIALLY SUPPORT THAT AS OPPOSED TO WIDER DATA THAT DOES NOT. WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS THAT STUDYS ARE SHOWING THAT SOMETHING LIKE CANNABIS IS AS AS ADDICTIVE AS SOMETHING LIKE SUGAR OR NICOTINE. BUT CERTAINLY NOT MORE HARMFUL TO BE A SCHEDULE ONE NARCOTIC LIKE HEROIN. SO THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING NOW. OVER TIME. AS IT'S BEEN MORE AVAILABLE TO UTILIZE NOT ONLY AT THE STATE LEVEL BUT THE FEDERAL LEVEL TO BE ALLOWED TO ACTUALLY STUDY CANNABIS. AND COUNTRIES LIKE ISRAEL HAVE LED ON THAT SIDE FOR QUITE SOME TIME. SO UTILIZING THAT INFORMATION NOW, WE HAVE SO MANY MORE ADVOCATES WHO ARE PUSHING TO SAY, OKAY, THIS IS ACTUALLY THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAVE AS OPPOSED TO WHAT'S BEEN REALLY FOCUSED ON IN THE PAST. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT, I WILL ADMIT YOU GUYS DO A GREAT JOB OF BLENDING NOT ONLY THE FACTS AND THE NUMBERS AND THE DATA BUT ALSO PUTTING A HUMAN ELEMENT TO THE FACE OF CANNABIS HERE. WALK ME THROUGH ARE THE IDEA OF LEGALIZATION OF CANNABIS. HOW DID THE IDEA FIRST EMERGE? WHO WAS SORT OF PUSHING FOR THAT? >> Akwasi: I THINK THAT DEPENDS ON EXACTLY WHERE YOU LOOK ON THIS SIDE OF THE BORDER OR ELSEWHERE. YOU KNOW, THERE'S LONG BEEN SUPPORT FOR CANNABIS LEGALIZATION BOTH IN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES. GOING BACK TO AT LEAST THE 60s AND CERTAINLY THE 70s. WITH RESPECT TO THE COMMISSIONS AND THE STUDIES, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE'D BE REMISS NOT TO MENTION THE LE DANE COMMISSION OFTEN MENTIONING THE POTENTIAL HARMS OF CANNABIS TO PERSONAL AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND ADVOCATING FOR SUGGESTING LEGALIZATION WHICH ULTIMATELY WAS SHELFED. SO THERE HAVE BEEN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT INTEREST GROUPS WHO HAVE LARGELY CHAMPIONED THE CAUSE FOR LEGALIZATION. THERE HAVE BEEN LIBERTARIAN GROUPS WHO FEEL THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T BE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WITH THEIR OWN BODIES. I THINK PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THE HARM OF PROHIBITION. CERTAINLY MYSELF AND OTHER CRIMINOLOGISTS, AND PUBLIC HEALTH SCHOLARS WOULD SUGGEST THAT DRUG CRIMINALIZATION, DRUG PROHIBITION ITSELF IS MUCH MORE HARMFUL THAN THE SUBSTANCES THAT ARE OFTEN CONTROLLED. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT A SOCIETAL LEVEL AND HOW THEY BLOCK PEOPLE FROM GETTING ACCESS TO THE TYPE OF TREATMENT THEY MAY NEED IF THEY NEED IT TO DEAL WITH THE ADDICTIONS ISSUES THEY HAVE. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT, TAHIRA, WHO ARE SOME OF THE EARLY PIONEERS OF CANNABIS REFORM. >> Tahira: IN THE U.S. IN THE EARLY DAYS ONE THING WE FAILED TO RECOGNIZE ARE THE ARE GAY ACTIVISTS WHO WERE RESPONDING TO THE A.I.D.S. CRISIS IN THE 80s. THAT GROUP BROUGHT BACK THIS NOTION THAT CANNABIS WAS MEDICINE. BROUGHT THAT WACK INTO THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE. THAT REALLY WAS THE EARLY STAGE FOR THE U.S. TO START MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION AND THAT WAS CALIFORNIA WAS THE FIRST STATE TO LEGALIZE FROM A MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE IN 1996. THAT REALLY STARTED THE WAVE OF OTHER STATES TO START LOOKING AT IT FROM A MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE AND YOU ALSO HAVE STATES LIKE OREGON WHO STARTED TO LOOK AT IT FROM THE OTHER SIDE WHICH IS HOW DO WE -- INSTEAD OF THE LEGALIZATION ELEMENT LET'S FOCUS ON DECRIMINALIZATION. SO THERE WERE POLICIES LIKE THAT THAT STARTED TO SHIFT ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND NOW WE'RE IN A VERY DIFFERENT STATE THAN WE WERE THEN. BUT THINKING ABOUT THOSE ACTIVISTS IN THE EARLY DAYS WHO WERE RESPONDING TO VARIOUS THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING THAT OTHER GROUPS WERE NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION TO OR DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES FOR. TODAY'S A WHOLE RANGE OF BODY THAT IS ARE FOCUSED ON IT ANYTHING FROM BUSINESS TO WHEN WE THINK OF ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT, SOCIAL EQUITY GROUPS AND ALSO PEOPLE LIKE AKWASI AND MYSELF WHO LOOK AT IT THROUGH A RACIAL JUSTICE LENS AND WHO HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENGAGE IN THIS BUSINESS NOW THAT IT HAS BECOME LEGALIZED IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT FORMS. BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STILL BEING LEFT ON THE SIDELINES BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE OF THE PAST. AND THEN BEYOND THAT, IT'S ALWAYS A POLITICAL INITIATIVE NO MATTER WHERE YOU LOOK AT IT AND IT HAS BECOME QUITE A BIPARTISAN ISSUE ON THE ONE SIDE IT'S HEALTH, IT'S WELLNESS, IT'S LETTING PEOPLE HAVE CHOICE AND ON THE OTHER SIDE IT'S ABOUT TAXES AND REVENUE. SO YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH MAKE A CASE FOR ANYBODY ON ANY SIDE OF THE TABLE TO SUPPORT CANNABIS AND OTHER DRUG POLICY INITIATIVES. >> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK THE HUMAN TOLL. I WANT TO READ ANOTHER PASSAGE FROM YOUR BOOK. THIS TIME YOU ARE QUOTING BRUCE WESTERN, THE CODIRECTOR OF THE JUSTICE LAB AT NEW YORK COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY AND HIS COLLEAGUE BECKY PETIT. IT READS CLEAR MAJORITIES OF YOUNG MEN ARE GOING TO PRISON AND COMING BACK LESS EMPLOYABLE AND MORE DETACHED FROM THEIR FAMILIES N THIS SITUATION THE INSTITUTIONS CHARGED WITH PUBLIC SAFETY HAVE BECOME IMPLICATED IN THE UNEMPLOYMENT AND FRAGILE FAMILY STRUCTURE CHARACTERISTIC OF HIGH CRIME COMMUNITIES. FOR POORLY EDUCATED YOUNG MEN IN HIGHLY INCARCERATED COMMUNITIES A PRISON RECORD NOW CARRIES LITTLE STIGMA. INCENTIVES TO COMMIT TO THE LABOUR MARKED HAVE BECOME SERIOUS. IS THERE ONE STORY THAT STICKS OUT TO YOU? >> Akwasi: THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION AND ONE THAT WE GET A LOT. MICHAEL THOMPSON'S AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WE PROFILE IN THE BOOK. AND HE NOW HAS A PROJECT, THE MICHAEL THOMPSON CLEMENCY PROJECT. HE WAS ULTIMATELY CONVICTED OF POSSESSING A VERY SMALL QUANTITY OF CANNABIS. YOU KNOW, ONE THAT, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY IN THE CANADIAN CONTEXT BUT EVEN IN THE U.S. WHERE HE WAS ULTIMATELY CONVICTED WAS A SMALL POSSESSION COUNT. HE HAD A PREVIOUS RECORD. BUT HE WAS INITIALLY SENTENCED TO 42 TO 60 YEARS FOR THE SUBSEQUENT CANNABIS OFFENCE AND HE SPENT DECADES IN JAIL AS A RESULT OF THIS OFFENCE. AND HIS STORY, AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET IN MANY WAYS AND THE ALREADY MARGINALIZED COMMUNITY THAT HE LIVED IN, TO BE SENT TO JAIL TO PRISON FOR SUCH AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME, ESPECIALLY AS LEGALIZATION WAS TAKING HOLD IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK THERE WERE SEVERAL STORY THAT IS WE PROFILE IN THE BOOK AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE'D HEAR OFTEN IS THAT THE INDIVIDUALS, AGAIN, OFTEN COMING FROM MARGINALIZED NEIGHBOURHOODS WHO WERE ARRESTED AND ULTIMATELY CONVICTED AND SOME OF WHOM WERE IMPRISONED FOR POSSESSING OR EVEN TRAFFICKING QUANTITIES OF CANNABIS THAT WOULD BE JUST SNICKERED AT BY PEOPLE OPERATING IN THE LEGAL CANNABIS INDUSTRY TO HAVE THEM NOW STILL BEHIND BARS WHILE THIS LEGAL INDUSTRY WAS OPERATING IN THE JURISDICTION IN WHICH THEY WERE INCARCERATED, MYSELF AND THE INDIVIDUALS AFFECTED FOUND THIS SO HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. AND SO MICHAEL THOMPSON -- AND AGAIN HE IS DOING GREAT WORK NOW THROUGH HIS CLEMENCY PROJECT TO BRING AWARENESS OF THE TOLL OF THE EFFECTS ON THE WAR OF DRUGS AND THE NEED FOR REPAIR BUT THE STORE IS ARE NUMEROUS. >> Jeyan: TAHIRA, I WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE AS WELL, WAS THERE ANYONE WHO STUCK OUT AS THIS IS A STORY WE NEED TO SHARE? >> Tahira: ANOTHER ONE WE NEED TO SHARE IS EVELYN LA CHAPELLE WHO SPENT 21 MONTHS IN PRISON FOR AN ARREST OF WHAT WAS VIEWED AS A SMALL ROLE IN A EXHIBITION OPERATION. SHE NEVER TOUCHED IT OR DISTRIBUTED IT. SHE HAD A PARTNER WHO WAS USING HER BANK ACCOUNT. AND SO FOR THAT SHE ENDED UP GETTING 87 MONTHS SHE WAS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT. SHE HAD NO PREVIOUS RECORD. AND SHE ENDED UP BEING RELEASED IN 2018. BUT WAS IN -- HAS NOW BECOME A SOCIAL JUSTICE ADVOCATE. SHE HAS HER OWN BUSINESS IN THE CANNABIS SPACE BUT IT'S IMPACTED HER IN A WAY THAT WE HEAR THE STORY ALL THE TIME THAT THIS RECORD FOLLOWS YOU AROUND. YOU AREN'T ABLE TO GET THE RESOURCES YOU NEED OR AREN'T ABLE TO GET JOBS. SHE WAS COLLEGE EDUCATED. AND SO YOU WOULD THINK THAT SHE WOULD COME OUT AND HAVE SO MANY OPPORTUNITIES BUT THAT'S REALLY NOT THE CASE. AND SO REALLY JUST LOOKING AT THE DIFFERENT SOCIOECONOMIC PEOPLE WHO CAME IN FROM DIFFERENT AREAS, DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND THE IMPACT THAT IT'S HAD ON THEM IS SO DEVASTATING THAT IT IS REALLY HARD TO WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND HOW WE'VE ALLOWED THAT TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN AND IT STILL CONTINUES TO HAPPEN TODAY. WE EVEN HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO WAS SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON FOR SELLING THE EQUIVALENT OF $20 WORTH OF CANNABIS. AND THAT JUST WAS RETRIED AND HE WAS RESENTENCED TO NOT LIFE IN PRISON BUT 45 YEARS. SO STILL IT'S NOT THAT MUCH BETTER AND WE'RE SEEING THESE STORIES CONTINUE TO PLAY OUT. >> Jeyan: AND JUST CURIOUS, AKWASI, WHEN WE LOOK AT SORT OF THE TERMS AND THE SENTENCES WARE HEARING. WARE HEARING 87 MONTHS, HEARING NO. RUSS YEARS. HOW CAN WE COMPARE THAT TO THE LAWS IN CANADA? WE'RE NOT SEEING THOSE TYPE OF EXTREME PUNISHMENTS. >> Akwasi: NOT IN PRESENT TIMES BUT IN THE 70s YOU COULD GET A PRISON SENTENCE FOR POSSESSION OF A SMALL AMOUNT OF CANNABIS. RECENTLY OUR LAWS GOT MORE LAX. TO GIVE YOUR VIEWERS A SENSE, THOUGH, THERE ARE ABOUT 50,000 SIMPLE CANNABIS POSSESSION CHARGES A YEAR IN THE TWO YEARS LEADING UP TO LEGALIZATION. MANY OF THOSE WOULD BE FILTER $OUT OF THE SYSTEM BEFORE SOMEONE WAS CONVICTED. VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD ULTIMATELY HAVE BEEN INCARCERATED FOR A POSSESSION OFFENCE. BUT IN THIS BOOK WE SAY WE SEE CANNABIS AS A GATEWAY DRUG NOT INTO OTHER DRUG USE BUT AS A GATEWAY INTO THE PRISON SYSTEM. I'M WORKING ON A FILE AT THE MOMENT. THERE IS A INDIVIDUAL CURRENTLY SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE FOR A VERY SERIOUS OFFENCE. WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH HIS LIVES HISTORY AND RECORD HIS FIRST CONVICTION WAS A SIMPLE CANNABIS POSSESSION CONVICTION. THE INDIVIDUAL, AS MANY OTHERS DO, END UP PERHAPS GETTING A PERIOD OF PROBATION. BUT THEN THERE ARE CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO THAT PROBATION WHICH THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ABIDE BY SO THEY MIGHT GET A FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THOSE CONDITIONS. OR, AGAIN, BECAUSE AN INDIVIDUAL HAS A CRIMINAL RECORD IT'S HARDER TO COMPLETE SCHOOL, TO GET A JOB, TO ESSENTIALLY OPERATE NORMALLY IN OUR SOCIETY. AND SO THAT CAN START A CYCLE OF INCARCERATION. YES, OUR LAWS HAVE BEEN LESS HARSH IN THE CANADIAN CONTEXT BUT I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THE IMPACT THAT CANNABIS DECRIMINALIZATION HAS HAD. IT'S NOT JUST ON THESE INDIVIDUALS. THEIR FAMILIES ARE AFFECTED. THEY HAVE TO PAY LEGAL COSTS AND THOSE INDIVIDUALS CAN CONTRIBUTE LESS TO THEIR FAMILIES BUT ENTIRE COMMUNITIES WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ARREST DATA WE GOT, CANNABIS IS MORE CONCENTRATED IN MORE MARGINALIZED NEIGHBOURHOODS AND THAT DEPLETES SOCIAL CAPITAL FROM NOSE NEIGHBOURHOODS. WE HAVE SPENT $1 BILLION ON THE WAR ON DRUGS IN CANADA AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT'S BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT HAVE GONE TO POLICE, JAILS AND CORRECTIONS. WHILE AT THE SAME TIME TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS AND COMMUNITY CENTRES IN THOSE VERY NEIGHBOURHOODS WHICH WOULD HELP THEM BE HEALTHY AND VIBRANT NEIGHBOURHOODS. >> Jeyan: I WANT TO ASK A FOLLOW-UP TO THAT. YOU GIVE SOME POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDING EXPUNGING THE PEOPLE CONVICTED OF CANNABIS OFFENCES. SIMPLE POSSESSION AS WELL. IN YOUR BOOK, YOU KIND OF LAY IT OUT SORT OF IN A COMICAL WAY BECAUSE OF SORT OF THE CHALLENGES THAT ONE WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH. AND NOT ONLY HERE IN CANADA WHERE WE HAVE PAPER RECORDS, IT'S KIND OF ALL MUDDLED. WHAT WOULD THAT ENTAIL TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS? >> Akwasi: IN THE CANADIAN CONTEXT -- AND THANKFULLY SOME THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE WE WROTE THE BOOK. OUR GOVERNMENTS HAVE PASSED LAWS THAT WOULD HAVE SIMPLE POSSESSION CONVICTIONS RECORDS FOR ALL DRUGS ESSENTIALLY SEALED AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME. BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT EVERYONE WHO HAS A RECORD IS GOING TO BENEFIT FROM THAT BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN WHICH RECORDS AS YOU'VE KIND OF NOTED WERE STORED AND WHERE ANCILLARY RECORDS MAY EXIST. BUT WE INITIALLY HAD THERE SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE HAD TO APPLY AND GO THROUGH AN 8 OR 12-STEP PROCESS DEPENDING WHERE YOU WERE. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE BUT YOU HAD TO PAY TO GET YOUR FINGERPRINTS, ET CETERA. IT WAS A LARGELY ARDUOUS PROCESS. THE GOVERNMENT ESTIMATED 10,000 PEOPLE WOULD BE ELIGIBLE. THERE WERE NUMBERS AS HIGH AS 500,000. THE LAST TIME I GOT MY HANDS ON THE NUMBERS ABOUT 550 PEOPLE HAD SUCCESSFULLY RECEIVED A RECORD SUSPENSION. SO THAT SYSTEM WAS AN ABJECT FAILURE AS IT HAD BEEN DESCRIBED BY OTHERS. >> Jeyan: TAHIRA, AKWASI MENTIONED IT AS WELL. REDISTRIBUTING MONEYS RAISED INTO THE COMMUNITIES MOST HARMED. WHY ISN'T THAT SOMETHING THAT HASN'T BEEN PICKED UP ON BOTH SIDES? >> Tahira: ONE WAY WE LOOK AT IT IS THE SAVINGS THAT COULD EXIST IF WE STOPPED ENFORCING THE LAWS IN A CERTAIN WAY AND REALLY CHANNELED THOSE RESOURCES IN A DIFFERENT WAY. IS IT JUST THINK OF THE SAVINGS ALONE THAT YOU COULD HAVE IF YOU WEREN'T FOCUSED ON PUTTING PEOPLE IN JAIL WHICH WE ESTIMATED BETWEEN 70 AND $75,000 PER PERSON JUST TO GET THEM THROUGH AND PROCESS THEM AND PUT THEM IN JAIL. AND SO IF YOU THINK OF JUST THAT NUMBER ALONE AND MULTIPLY THAT BY HOWEVER MANY, THOSE SAVINGS COULD BE REALLOCATED IN A WAY TO THE COMMUNITY, TO HOSPITALS, TO SCHOOLS, TO OTHER PUBLIC RESOURCES. BEYOND THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT CANNABIS LEGALIZATION WHAT HAS HAPPENED MORE IN THE U.S. IS THAT THERE ARE THINGS STARTING TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO FROM TAX REVENUE IN ORDER TO THEN APPLY TOWARD SOCIAL EQUITY APPLICANTS OR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED BY THE WAR ON DRUGS OR MARGINALIZED IN SOME WAY. WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN THAT PLAY OUT YET. IT'S STILL EARLY TOY SEE THE RESULTS OF THAT. BUT THAT IS ANOTHER WAY, TOO, THAT IN THE BENEFITS OF CANNABIS LEGAL LEGALIZATION TO FACTOR BACK INTO COMMUNITIES. ONE PIECE OF THAT IS WHY IS CANNABIS LIAMIZATION THE ONLY RESOURCE TO HELP THESE COMMUNITIES WHEN A WHOLE RANGE OF POLICIES -- NOT JUST CANNABI. BUT A WHOLE RANGE OF OTHER THINGS HAVE FACTORD INTO IT. SO THAT IDEA AROUND REPARATION. AND THAT'S WHAT WE THINK THE SAVINGS ELEMENT IS SO IMPORTANT. IF YOU STOP ENFORCING THESE RIDICULOUS DRACONIAN POLICIES WE'VE HAD FOR SO LONG YOU COULD CHANNEL THOSE RESOURCES IN A BROAD WAY. PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE AFFILIATED OR HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER IMPACTED BY CANNABIS. IT'S MORE BROADLY IMPACTED TO COMMUNITIES, AS AKWASI HAS MENTIONED -- THAT ARE IN A CYCLE OF POVERTY. WE SEE THAT IN THE U.S., AND WE SEE THAT IN CANADA. THAT'S REALLY A WAY THAT WE THINK THAT COMMUNITIES CAN REAL BRING BENEFIT LARGELY BY LEGALIZATION IS TO THINK OF THOSE TWO-PRONGED BENEFITS AS WELL. >> Akwasi: FOLLOWING UP ON THAT PIECE THERE ARE MODELS WE PROFILE IN THE BOOK WHERE LEGALIZATION HASN'T ROLLED OUT IN A WAY IT WAS ANTICIPATED LIKE NEW YORK. >> Tahira: GIVE US TWO YEARS. >> Akwasi: WHEN YOU LOOK AT ILLINOIS THEY TAKE A PORTION OF THE SALES TO GO DIRECTLY BACK INTO THE COMMUNITIES MOST HARMED, RIGHT? AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS CERTAINLY MISSING FROM THE CANADIAN CONTEXT. WHEN WE GO BACK TO OUR LEGALIZATION THERE WAS NO CONVERSATION AROUND SOCIAL JUSTICE BEING HAD AT ALL. IT WAS REALLY AROUND PUBLIC HEALTH, PUBLIC SAFETY AND PROTECTING YOUTH. THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF SPACE IN CANADA TO BE KIND OF MODEL SOME OF THE INITIATIVES WE'RE SEEING SETH OF THE BORDER BOTH WITH RESPECT TO INCLUSION ANYONE DUST TRY BUT ALSO IN RESPECT TO REDISTRIBUTION OF REVENUES AS TAHIRA SAID THAT ARE SAVED FROM BOND ENFORCEMENT AND CRIMINATES JUSTICE AS WELL AS PULLING FROM THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEING MADE FROM LEGAL CANNABIS. >> Jeyan: I HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT, AKWASI, I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION. I IMAGINE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY AT THE VARIOUS CONFERENCES YOU ARE LOOKING AROUND THE ROOM. YOU ARE PROBABLY ONE OF A FEW PEOPLE OF COLOUR IN THAT ROOM, IN THAT SPACE. AND I IMAGINE THAT'S HOW YOU GUYS CONNECTED. AND I DO ASK, HOW DO YOU MAKE THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY MORE INCLUSIVE? BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT RIGHT NOW. HOW DO YOU CHANGE THAT FROM LOOKING AT IT FROM A CRIMINALIZATION SIDE OF IT TO BEING ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS. >> Akwasi: IT'S A GREAT QUESTION. WE'RE ABOUT FIVE YEARS OUT FROM LEGALIZATION. OUR THEE-YEAR REVIEW OF THE CANNABIS ACT IS CURRENTLY UNDERWAY. ONE OF THE CLEAREST THINGS THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT COULD DO IS TO EXPAND THE ACT TO ADD SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY AND I WOULD ADD SOCIAL JUSTICE. AND SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY COMES FROM THE LEGISLATION THAT BASICALLY ENABLINGS THE ONTARIO CANNABIS STORE. THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR A RANGE OF INITIATIVES BOTH GOVERNMENT DIRECTED AS WELL AS FROM INDUSTRY. GOVERNMENT CAN INCENTIVIZE THE DIVERSIFICATION OF INDUSTRY THROUGH WAIVING REGULATORY FEES AND COMPANIES THAT SUPPORT THEIR DIVERSITY INITIATIVES BY ENSEN TIFFIZING COMPANIES TO DIVERSIFY. I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND DOING THAT NOW BUT ALSO INCENTIVIZING INDUSTRY TO DO THE SAME THING AS WELL. RECOGNIZING THAT HAVING A DIVERSE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, "C" SUITE AND WORKFORCE. DIVERSE EMPLOYEES OUT PERFORM THEIR PEERS. THE MARKET RECOGNIZES THAT. MY RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT CERTAIN GROUPS DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE WITH LEGAL CANNABIS BECAUSE THEY DON'T SEE IT AS FAIR OR JUST AND THEY MAY BE MORE LIKELY TO DO SO IF THEY SEE CANNABIS COMPANIES AND BRANDS THAT REFLECT THEMSELVES IN THEIR INTERESTS. >> Jeyan: WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. TAHIRA, AKWASI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING ON THE PROGRAM TONIGHT. >> Akwasi: THANK YOU. >> Tahira: THANK YOU. (♪♪♪) >> Jeyan: THAT IS "THE AGENDA" FOR THURSDAY, JUNE 22nd, 2023. TOMORROW, STEVE TALKS TO LIBERAL LEADERSHIP CANDIDATE TED HSU ABOUT WHETHER A NICE GUY WITH A PH.D. IN PHYSICS HAS THE LEVERAGE TO WIN THE TOP JOB. I'M JEYAN JEGANATHAN. THANKS FOR WATCHING TVO. FOR JOINING US ONLINE AT tvo.org. AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.
