The Real Story of Ram Mandir Ayodhya & Babri Masjid by Dr Meenakshi Jain | Abhijit Chavda Podcast 45

Matra was attacked again and again and again so nothing has survived and what has survived is by accident okay in none of the cases did the idka party win I see and the court also told them that you're behaving like hardened litigants when you're going on filing case after case when we told you that it is you have no local standa in the matter when the alabad high court asked the Muslim party please show us one bit of evidence of prisons for 300 years where is your voice we don't get anything but on the TV channels when this case was came into the Limelight last year they interviewed many ordinary Muslims and they said why are you raking this up now 1968 agreement okay welcome back it's great to see you all again the following is a conversation with padmashri award Dr Baki Jin Dr Jane is a noted Indian political scientist and historian she is is the author of many books many very impactful books and she's one of the most relevant and impactful historians in India today in this conversation we discussed the case of the ram janabi issue the Krishna janabi and various other relevant issues that uh that are relevant to the work that she does so enjoy the conversation and don't forget to like And subscribe minaki jeni welcome back to the abijit cha podcast thank you for having me it is such a pleasure to have ma'am and a privilege as well privilege for me too thank you ma'am thank you ma'am so the last time we had discussed Sati we did a virtual podcast it's finally great to have you face to face yeah me too and I would like to discuss uh I would like to learn from you about a number of things so for example I I am not really well versed in medieval Indian history I have not really studied the ram Mand Ram janabi case the Krishna janabi case it's painful so that's why I've kept away from it but I would and and you have been instrumental through your work through your research in uh fortifying the case in providing the evidence that led to the court judgment in favor of the ram jomi um trust in the Hindus so I would like to learn about the history of this entire matter the the temple the history behind it and the court case and how it was cracked from you so could you please uh you know before I begin discussing the ram Mand case uh as a historian I would like to tell you that every case of Temple vandalism in the medieval period has been documented by people who vandalized the temple and it is also not so well known that the people who were affected that means the ordinary devotees the temple priests and all that from the time that any Temple was demolished they made concerted efforts to rebuild the Temple m so obviously when they tried to rebuild the Temple the temple could not be of the scale and Grandeur of the temple that had been destroyed because we must realize that political power was not in the hands of the worshippers and nor did they have that economic might so in many cases they rebuilt those temples in a very small humble way okay but they kept the name of the original Temple alive so you know you will see snat before we come to aodha yes snat was destroyed again and again and again yes we know that it was destroyed first by mmud gnavi and perhaps we do not know that the last time it was destroyed was by Emperor orens so there are series of attacks Alin khalji attacked it all well documented now the question can arise that if the temple was demolished by mmud kavi why was it attacked again and again and again and the simple answer is that the devotees went on building that snat Temple so this is a story uh that is you know so inspiring and so humbling that you know ordinary devotees they they were just so committed to their Dy that they could not bear the thought that there will be no Shrine to that deity so and the last attempt uh was by or Z when he was over 80 years old okay so or sends a fan to his governor in Gujarat and says you know these Hindus they have the capacity to go on and on worshiping at those shrines so now you go to snat and make sure that theyve not revived worship at that place and if they have then then destroy it in such a manner that it can never be worship cannot take place at that Shrine again so you know uh when we make these uh unworthy comments that the temples were attacked only for their wealth when the temples were being attacked and attacked there was no wealth attached to them there were small modest structures but every time they kept the same name the s Temple may have been built six times but it always kept the name snat so that is a stirring story which unfortunately has receded from our memory uh in the last 40 50 years okay that we can discuss later but this is a story that I as you mentioned it's very evident in aod it is so well documented in the case of matura with inscriptions is going back we'll come to that later yes but to come to the ram Temple you see the ram Temple was is the first case where the Hindus have actually got back a site after 500 years of struggle and that through Court intervention but during the time that they did not have any power and that Masjid has been built over there they never surrender that site that is the most when I studied this uh phenomena at aoda I was not aware that this is replicated in every sacred site that we want to study okay so in aoda we know that the temple was destroyed by Babar in 1528 and perhaps not so well known is the fact that the Masjid party in court was not able to produce one bit of evidence to show that they were there from 1528 to 1858 okay that means for over 300 years there is no evidence of Muslim Presence at that site now what does it mean it means it's a case of Smash and grab mhm that Baba just wanted to demolish a particular Temple mhm and he occupied that space and that's the end of the story okay perhaps they were not that many Muslims do okay offer namas over there but the fact is that when we talk about contesting claims the Hindu claim at that site is so well documented that it is amazing now I would like to give you the first uh evidence that we have it is of a English traveler uh to India his name was William Finch he came around 164 or 168 that so he's traveling wherever he's going he's writing his account okay and he doesn't know that this account is going to be used 4 500 years later right so in any case he comes to aodha and he goes to that site and he says that you know uh Hindus come here they take a dip in the serun river and you know there are pandits who record the names of these people who have come and when they go back they take black burnt grain with them now that is something which needs to be explained because that has a lot of significance okay all right then the next account is by a Jesuit traveler I can't call him a traveler because he lived in India 40 years okay and he even died in India and is buried in India so he wrote copiously because he was you know he was interested in science mathematics so many other things and uh his Works in his work on aoda he lived in this area for 7 years okay he lived in India for 40 years but in this ab area for 7 years okay and his account is very very significant because he is the first person to say he provides sketches of the building and he's the first person to say that you know the Hindus have created a v VI means VI or cradle okay cradle is for a newborn of course so he says they have created a b and they come and circumambulate around it and on RAM Nomi he mentions Ram Nomi so many people come so these are eyewitness accounts of Hindu Presence at that site M and then you know we have this uh uh officer of the fbad district court in 1822 he filed a report in the fbad district court and he says that babri Masjid was built on the temple and it is next to sitak kirui okay so he's saying that babri Masjid is built on the Janan Temple after that I forgot to mention uh one more thing that you know uh Akbar Emperor Akbar he gave six beas of land to Hanuman Tila okay Hanuman Tila is very near the Jan in audya okay and that uh grant that he gave had to be renewed about 100 years later by a subsequent quent mul Emperor so the grant is renewed and the person who writes that Imperial order he he says that you know uh uh this Emperor has renewed this grant for six beers of land to Hanuman Tila I am writing this Imperial order I'm writing it from the Janan of ram okay he is writing in persan okay and he's just copying the Imperial order so it can be handed over to Hanuman Tila or wherever and he's saying I'm writing this Imperial order from the janaman of ram so you know there are many of these accounts in persan in uh Udu later on and all these accounts that were written in the 18th 19th century they say that babri Masjid was built on the site of the ram Temple okay there is no account that I'm aware of that was written in the medieval period in Arabic persan or Udu which says that babri Masjid was built on vacant land okay they're all unanimous that was built on the site of the ram Temple and uh what is uh very interesting I think it was Lord Ram trying to protect his territory that you know in the British period many cases were filed between the mahens and the mutes of the Masjid because the M were you see when I talk about Masjid I have to clarify that there is a compound mhm in that compound there is the Masjid and the rest is vacant land within the boundary so uh so that means that the uh the Masjid people have come in at some point we don't know when because for 300 years they were not able to produce any evidence of their presence over there okay so from in 1857 there is the great Revolt yes and after that the British actually become in charge of the administration of aad okay so now they are the controlling Authority okay so from 1858 the judicial apparatus is under their control so in fesban District Court from 1858 till 1947 there are a series of cases which the two parties have filed against each other okay and it's miraculous that no attempt was made to protect these valuable documents and they survived intact until the cases came up a hearing in Independent India how you see so the first case that comes up in the fead district court is an fi okay filed by the tanar okay of Abad he say that you know uh yesterday 25 niang s have entered babri Masjid they started haban and Puja and uh I'm filing this report and he says that in the walls of the Masjid they've written ram ram the six okay so uh this is the first report so the next day the mut the mut means superintendent of Babi Masjid he files a case m in the British fat court and he say that you know these people have entered and they' have started havan Puja Etc and then he signs because who's making this complaint so he signs that I the mut M anywhere in the world can you have a mjid named Janan that itself is a giveaway it is so so you know they were very conscious of what they were doing then you know the revenue record of the British they British were very careful about collecting Revenue wherever they went the first thing they did was to prepare the revenue settlement in the British Revenue settlements this Masjid is not mentioned at all okay babri Masjid is not mentioned that area as mentioned as janaman okay and the uh these British documents Revenue documents were made public because in case you want to file an objection that you know you you have to have the papers yes so no objection was filed by the Masjid party that why is it called janaman so you know it is there's so many things you know that no W was prepared in 1944 up government said list of Bak property of Shia and Sunni MOS should be prepared so it was prepared what exactly is wak wak means that when you construct a Masjid there has to be some some way of in meeting the incurring expenses okay like in the sense the Masjid has to be repaired upkeep and all that upkeep the mut has to be paid yes you know when there is a special namas for whatever reason special Provisions have to be made okay so when you have a mjid you have to provide for its upkeep okay so in the case of M bab Masjid is written that it was made in 1528 emperor babber but W that column is left blank okay because why would Baba make a wak he was just interested in destroying that Temple he never I think visualized that you would be actually used as a Masjid okay so uh there was no W made and the alabad high court said that the absence of wak is a fatal flaw in in the case of the Masjid party okay so you know there are so many of these things uh just last thing that I want to say on this that the ASI conducted excavations on orders of the alad high court when was this in 2010 I think okay 2010 the Judgment came I think it was in 2007 so the ASI conducted excavations at that site okay two things I want to say about the excavation first of all the excavations showed continuous occupation of that site from the second millennium BC second millennium BC second okay second that site was never used for habitational purposes okay no Palace of a king or dwelling of a important person was ever made there there were a series of sacred structures one after the other okay including a shivling etc and then they found that there was a temple there in the 10th Century okay that Temple was destroyed okay so there is evidence of Destruction yes okay and they said that on the on that destroyed temples in the 12th century this Grand Ram Temple was built okay why is it important because it shows that the Hindus are determined never to surrender that site so when the temple was destroyed we don't know but how it was destroyed but on that they built the temple in the 12th century which Baba destroyed in the 16th 16th Cur now you know uh the court could not find any evidence or rather the Masjid party could not provide any evidence so you know as a historian and as concerned citizens uh we have to ask ourselves we have to introspect that this was a case which you know injected so much poison in the polity so it was just a handful of committed people who were determined to vate the atmosphere and to deny the Mand party what was rightly theirs okay because if you're not able to produce any evidence on your side then you have to have the grace to say that it deserves to be given back yes but uh you and and finally when the Supreme Court gave the Judgment this uh judgment could have been given 50 years earlier I'm sure it could have what was the thing that you hand over this site and you give you mid we give you land somewhere else okay isn't it m the Supreme Court said this you have to hand over to the Hindus H you have lost a Masjid so we giving you land to construct a Majid elsewhere so what was the problem in arriving at this solution 40 50 years ago because all the evidence was already there all the evidence was there is nothing new that was Unearthed all this evidence was there and the other point is that none of this evidence was uh you know offered by the temple party okay because the accounts of the Europeans were there H they were there well before the BJP or vhp came into the picture yes the British court documents were there yes there was no BHP BJP there the revenue records were there everything was there the only thing was the ASI excavations okay that that's the only that's thing that's new yeah okay so uh which means that you know uh a biased media h and a handful of committed historians if I can call them all right academic historians yeah they could hold the country to Ransom [Music] M from 1989 okay because they intervened first in 1989 how so you see what happened was that there was a feeling among uh Muslim uh people that you know this side doesn't mean much to us okay so let us hand it over to them H and that is when committed marxists it's on record okay they came to the Muslim side and said don't surrender you have a case we will provide you the evidence okay so they misled that party and then you know sentiments harden when the conflict goes on and on so this was the case M uh according to uh uh Dr KK Muhammad mhm uh uh ichr the chairman was Professor Iran Habib okay and he said that icr was turned into a branch of the bab Masjid action committee okay you know and he has detailed uh I don't want to get into the personalities of the thing but in my book I have a chapter on Professor ifan Habib okay uh that has not been refuted by anyone M because uh I think as academics we should keep the decorum and you know we should maintain some civility but uh I exposed him so thoroughly on the babri Masjid inscription okay you know inscription what inscription is this so what happened when the Masjid fell in 1992 when it was broken uhhuh then inscription uh 5 ft by 2 ft fell from the walls of the Masjid from the wall of the structure okay okay so and you know what was the atmosphere at that time the entire world media was there yes yes so Iran so this was clinching proof that the temple is there because the inscription talks about the temple what was this inscription what did it say this inscription was first of all 5 ft by 2 ft all right and it was in pristine condition M because it was embedded in the wall all right so it had not you know been damaged in any way okay uh but when uh it fell it broke into two but the loss of a few letters in the inscription didn't amount to much because you could easily read it all right now uh the inscription everybody said now you know it has fallen now these people will have to admit that what did the inscription say now so what happened was that uh Iran said he was the first person all right he said that this inscription has been planted there all right so the thing is that we asked that you know planted when the entire media is there and a it's not something in your pocket that you can put a hany and just plant it over there 5T by 2 ft is a lot that's a lot so then a if it has been planted where was it all this time if you're saying it did not fall from the walls it was somewhere so he said it was in a private collection okay now the thing is that you know I I love Indian art I also have some pieces but I cannot keep a 5 foot by foot inscription in my drawing room indeed so where will I keep it and I don't know the value of it so then it's in some basement of my mind and then I bring it so we said we'd like to know who's the private collector who had this inscription please furnish the yeah yeah so they were not able to furnish the name because there was none okay then he modified his stand okay and said that actually it was stolen from lnno Museum okay now new story H okay so then you know I was one of the people who wrote to lnno museum that is this inscription you know has it been stolen so uh then lnno in museum wrote back to me inscription number so and so is very much in our possession all right okay but that's not the end of the story okay but I mean imagine to what length one can go H to further your agenda right and then what happened was that it was our word against his word m all right we are saying that it has not been stolen lakam museum is saying it has not been stolen we have that inscription number but the professor was a big name okay so the you know you you can never imagine how history will unfold itself in the most likely way mhm what happened was that uh a pro person called uh kishor Kunal M he was appointed the pmo as officer on special Duty on the aodha cell okay so he decided to go to L Museum mhm and he said I want to see this inscription now we cannot go to lakam Museum and say you want to see this inscription because it's not on public display everything is not on public display in any Museum yes so he went there and he said I want to see this and he took a photograph so he published that photograph and that photograph showed that inscription was also in two parts okay but one part had nothing to do with the other part and the inscription was so badly damaged you could not even read a letter I see so I mean this inscription which was found an aodha so then the alad high court asked the ASI to get the inscription deciphered okay and the chief epigraphist was a very very uh eminent scholar KV Ram he has just recently passed away I see he read the entire inscription his reading was accepted by the alabat high court and that reading has not been challenged by anyone okay so that is the official reading of an inscription which talks about the temple being in honor of the person who killed the 10he headed rakas Etc okay so and it also talks about you know the fear of westerners okay so is it you know that the invasions that started because Babar came much after me Gabi and all that yes so but it talks about fear of Western okay but it's very clear that it refers to this Temple it gives the name of the person it gives the name of the family the whole history it gives okay so I would imagine that you know in uh such a uh Revelation the other side would feel somewhat embarrassed and at least offer some kind of public apology H which is no way near the theme but according to me as a historian the one benefit of the aodha movement has been the total exposure of left historians right and now if you see what is happening in matura and Kashi uh-huh you don't find any left historian making any statement okay okay otherwise they were in the Press every day you know every day you would hear statements of the big four or the big five of the left historians okay and the media was all the time playing up what they were saying they were not giving adequate space to the other side yes which they were dismissing as you know Rabbid whatever okay okay but uh and that is when all the evidence was the on the other side so uh as a student of History I feel that the left historians and left activists and left archaeologist they suffered in a big way because of the stance that they took on aoda which contradicted all the available evidence so now uh in a sense they are in Retreat mhm of course they Grumble and they complain and you know occasionally you will hear some comments or some speech or talk but that aggressive attitude that they had in the aodha case that is totally totally missing okay so that is what I have to say on aodha there's a lot more that I can say but I've already talked so much about it written two books yes you have yes and I think that I would really like to move on to other aspects of my study uh which a Yoda is very important because you know now next year the temple is going to be inaugurated by the Prime Minister yes inde so it very important for us to know about it yes it is um as you said most people really don't know even now what a strong case the Hindus had M You Know M uh but they're not also aware of how badly the left historians were exposed in court indeed you know and uh so many lawyers if you see the way they behaved in the Supreme Court uhhuh I mean when the Supreme Court was hearing the things people were tearing up papers and documents which were going against the Masjid party is that the way to fight a case wow amazing you know uhuh but uh uh I finally I would like to say uh this is one case the solitary case MH where the Hindus have reclaimed a site through Court intervention and that also after 500 years after 500 years and if you look uh at Spain for example okay when the Arab armies conquered parts of Spain yes there was no Cathedral that they did not convert into a Masjid yes but when the Spaniards throughout the Arabs there was no Masjid that they did not reclaim as Cathedral MH so um I mean I'm glad for our success but it is very very slow and I'm not advocating any forward policy on this of course but uh I think that the Hindu uh you know patience uh it has not been appreciated by the critics and uh large sections of the intelligen yeah they have a grudging acknowledgement of the Hindu Victory it's not a Hindu Victory after all the point is it's a civilization Victory yes according to me m you know yes it was a struggle and who were the people who are fighting this struggle there were ordinary people who were going there there was no Hindu king there that who was you know saying come come yes it was all a people's movement imagine tiffen saying that on RAM Nami people come and do parika who was telling them no one no one yes and that is the beauty of our civilization it has stood the test of time it has survived the most horrendous instances in its history yes only because of the dedication of the common people you know it is the common people who have not forgotten their Heritage and uh there has been a disconnect with with our heritage uh I think uh post Independence particularly yes uh with a section of our English educated I include myself among them it took me a long time to you know come back I know what do you mean so so you know uh till till 1947 there was no disconnect yes you know uh look at the people who were there in the freedom struggle Surendra banerji bankim Chandra and all those people who wrote so much about India M they were totally connected to the thing they all had Western education yes but after Independence I don't know what happened uh but I think that things are changing and we are finding people finding their roots and their civilizational ethos and traditions they're reconnecting with them the ordinary people never had a problem it's only the elites the El educated Elites yes before we move on to the other case do you think today's kids are sufficiently connected to the roots the English educated I don't think so at all yes yeah but here uh I see a ray of Hope in social media okay social media has played a very very important role in making young people young students young children aware of their Heritage you know because uh anyone can put up a talk on YouTube on the history of his area his hero and it gets such wide coverage and then people get encouraged encouraged encouraged so if you see like for example your podcast uh I I mean it's unbelievable that lacks of people are tuning in because you're saying something which resonates with them the same is with my YouTube talks that many people see my videos will never read my book oh yeah true because I don't expect them also they're not but uh they have got this Avenue to hear my views on issues of importance and they connect with it so I think that you know because the education system is still out of their reach and our reach so this is a fantastic way of circumventing it is yes and you know you have so many uh historians who are coming up who have uh just ignored the established institutions and made a name for themselves and written on such contentious issues on which there have been no rebuttal like Vikram Sant on sarar so whatever he has said they can go on cribbing about it but it's very difficult for them to produce a book of that research you know the kind that he has produced so there are and he has got a massive falling on YouTube Etc so uh I mean the established educational institutions I don't think are anywhere near being in harmony with our civilizational ethos but I think that social media and YouTube channels like yours and Scholars have got a mass following though they are not even now in the curriculum of universities indeed our universities have ensured that these the historians that actually deal with actual facts they are marginalized kept out of the curriculum what example is Dr B another example is you uh BBL I mean the contribution that he has made it is really phenomenal the ram Temple is only because of him MH he was the first person to say that there is a temple beneath the Masjid because he said pillars of that Temple are coming out on both sides okay out of the boundary wall so there has to be a temple right and he was the first person to actually declare that and at that time you know many people thought that is it possible because no excavations were done beneath that Masjid yes but all the excavations proved what he was saying was right right so he has been Vindicated absolutely absolutely there are other cases as well the Kashi vishwanath Temple the Krishna ji Temple what evidence do we have with regards to let's take one first let's take Kashi vishan no let's take ma because book of course of course let's do that yes yeah so uh actually in MAA uh the case is so strong I'll just present some of the facts to you okay you know uh in popular men I'm talking about the masses you ask them two things can you tell me about Krishna they'll say he gave the Gita of dish yes and he lived in MA yes those are two things everyone will know yes now as a historian uh one is interested in finding out how this popular view can be substantiated yes because then only we can make a case that there was a civilizational continuity yes so it is very surprising I'll begin with the literary evidence okay so the chandogya upnishad is among the earliest upnishads MH it can be dated it's very difficult to date text but you know 8 9th century BC okay that means how many thousands of years 3,000 years all right yeah so that is the first evidence literary evidence that we have that chandad says Krishna right now in the entire religious or civilizational history we only know of onei Putra Krishna so there cannot be any ambiguity on whom they talking about yes so it says that you know DKI Putra Krishna this was his teacher give the name of the teacher angirasa angirasa okay and then it goes on to say that he learned these things from his teacher okay and it describes it describes what the guru taught DKI Putra Krishna okay and it is so remarkable that the Gita ofh has such strong evidence of that teaching okay so you know uh then of course you know there is Panini patanjali I'll go into that a little later sure uh or maybe I can take Panini first Panini was the greatest Sanskrit gamian yes and the value of Panini's work is that it is like an inscription in the sense that nobody has added a comma to what Panini wrote you know in the text like Mahabharat and all there have been so many addition yes but in Panini's grammar it is the way Panini wrote it so it is as valuable as an inscription and Panini talks about the devotees of Bas okay and then the next person that we would like to take note of is pangali okay banali was actually living in Maura and he wrote the mahab bhasha explaining Panini's rules of grammar okay and in the mahab bhasha he also gave eight examples from the life of Krishna okay so he's explaining something and he say you know example Krishna killed cons MH so eight instances from the life of Krishna means that he was fully aware of the story of Krishna right now patanjali says that you know Panini wrote rules of grammar M and one important rule of grammar was that when you're discussing two people then the shorter name will come first okay for example Gopi janardan Gopi is the shorter name yes it will be always mentioned before janardan okay but Pani said there is only one exception to the rule always what is that exception when you're discussing vasudev and Arjun you will discuss mention vasudev first not Arjun why this is in quotes because vasu is the worshipful one okay so I mean this is fantastic it's amazing amazing and uh uh then I just want to make a slight detour that you know uh in the 2 Century BC there was the Greek Ambassador M from teila to the court of a Hindu king yeah and he came to vidisha and he erected a column heliodorus heliodor yes but what is so the column is for vasudev now what is interesting is he writes that inscription has two parts the first part he dis uh describes who he is where he has come from to the court of which Indian king he has come and the year Etc okay the second part the inscription has two verses which historian AR re CH M said our verses from the Mahabharat okay so that means that H Hodor knew about the Mahabharat before he came here otherwise why would he inscribe yes and then uh he started the historian started examining and he said you know the Mahabharat itself says that it should be first recited in Tula okay the Mahabharat itself says that it should be first recited in Tula and from there the assembled people can hear it and take it to the various places of residence so again a remarkable coincidence between an inscription and what Mahabharat says so you know it is it's very very very surprising that the text Mahabharat was amending did Etc added and all but this kernel is there that it has to be first recited and it says that you know it was recited these are the people who came and then they left and they took and the inscription is uh substantiating that okay so then you know we have uh uh this meses yes he came to the court of Chandra Moria yes his Inda is lost it's lost but certain portions have survived in the writings of others others yes so he mentions that matura and Gokul are with the vishi clan okay and Krishna was from the Bish Clan yes so it's very mentioned there is a very interesting uh account by a Roman historian I think in the first century ad M so he's writing this account on the basis of what he learned from the people who came with Alexander it was an I think it was that account was traveling from one generation to another okay so he say that you know when King porus uh he was marching against Alexander his army carried an image of Krishna before them carried an image of Krishna before them M because that was the strongest incentive for them to fight with greatest Valor Against The Invader okay so you know that IM the image was motivating them so these are you know such uh literary accounts that I have mentioned to you uhhuh but if I can come to MAA itself because these are all accounts outside Maura yes and I said that you ask anyone Krishna MAA is krishna's birthplace yes so what is the evidence so the first evidence is an epig graic evidence it is an inscription and you know when we talk about Matra we should always remember that Matra was attack again and again and again so nothing has survived intact okay uh not even intact I mean nothing has survived and what has survived is by accident okay fragment fragments so uh and all this that I'm citing to you these discoveries were made in the colonial period okay so it has nothing to do with present day politics none of this evidence has been found after Independence okay when the ASI was totally under professionals Colonial professionals so uh the first bit of evidence is an inscription uh of course it's in fragment but we can date it to before Common Era okay why because it says that you know it was in the reign of this King it mentions the king that King's Reign was over in 15 Common Era okay so it has to be before 15 Common Era and the fragment of the inscription says that you know uh this is a is describing a building okay the building has a rectangle around it are these structures uh one of the structures Toran Arch is there uhhuh etc etc that inscription uh it says that I am building at for vasu God of gods okay so the inscription is damaged but vasu God of gods is there and it says that where am I building it I'm building it at the mahasan of basv okay since the rest of the inscription is not there we don't know what he meant by Mahan okay but in we can guess it means a great place associated with an important event in the life of Krishna it can be his birthplace but I'm not using the word Jan because it mentions M okay or it can be a place where he killed CS maybe yes so and this inscription is you know part of a door jam you know in Hindi we call it chocat chocat you know the door hinges on that choc or bracket it's 8 and 1 half feet tall okay in the damaged condition okay enormous so I mean the full thing is not there okay so you can imagine that the shrine or whatever was being built h was pretty big pretty big isn't it yes because 8 and 1/2 ft have survived of that door jam okay so it is absolutely astonishing M so now after discussing this door jam it is called the vasu door jam because the person who made it his name was vasu okay and he said I'm making it for vasu da da of Da God of gods okay uh but before before I come to the next uh inscription that I want to mention uh there was a historian uh I don't know where he came from maybe from uh Germany or some place uhuh about 50 60 years ago and he was doing a research work on when Miracle plays on the life of Krishna began to staged in India I see so he found an inscription from matura again partial but it talks about a family of actors it talks about a family of actors and it say that you know they are skilled in all the talents that a acting family should have they can sing they can dance etc etc okay and they stage plays for the these brothers meaning basv and his family okay so that is also that means that plays on the life of Krishna were being staged in MAA at least 2 and a half thousand years ago okay I mean that's how old the inscription is that's how old the inscription is 2 and a half thousand years okay this is this one which I mentioned vasu vas it's before 15 Common Era so it's 2300 years old at least M so they are almost parallel okay M uh then we have another inscription which was actually found in a well in a well because you know the attacks and all something flew somewhere something flew somewhere most didn't survive now this inscription it says we are building a Stone Temple okay that portion has survived mhm and it we are building the Stone Temple for the five Vish Heroes okay the five uh Krishna belonged to the Vish Clan his father was the head of that Clan so they're building a temple a stone structure it says uh for the five Rish Heroes now we the rest of the thing hasn't survived but everyone knows the five Rish heroes are Krishna his brother sankaran an samb and pruma so these are the five immediate relatives of Krishna who were venerated for quite some time then after that you know only sankaran and Krishna were worship and now mainly Krishna huh but at one point uh they were all five worship and this inscription mentions that okay and L behold I have to tell you the conclusion of this story that is in 1911 Alexander Cunningham yeah who was the director general of the archaeological Survey of India he excavated a mound near the well okay when you when you see a big Mound then it's very evident that there remains over there yes so he excavated the mound and he found three images three statues okay uh two were of men okay one was of a female they were headless okay and uh the statues are really beautiful you should if you can see them in Matra Museum I've reproduced them in my book okay you know the way it's such fine uh artistic talent the way the doti has been draped the belly the J I mean it's absolutely breathtaking okay now these two statues that have been found it is the unanimous opinion of all art historians in India and abroad I do not know of a dissenting voice okay they say that it represents Krishna and balam M sank MH so imagine I mean what more proof do you want and the third uh statue was of a female it was slightly later than these to but they say it is of their system okay so I mean if we go trying to build a case for Krishna at Maura what more evidence can we ask for I'm not talking about the literary evidence because Chand could have been composed anywhere all right and panani was in t yes uh Mahabharat we don't know the final when was you but from matura this is the vasor inscription the play milal plays and the MAA well inscription these three are absolute proof then you know there are many other inscriptions uh which I have discussed in my book uh and the last inscription uh is now in Pakistan okay huh uh it was of the time of Chandra gupt okay 2 and a half thousand years ago roughly no I think it was about 2,000 years ago okay Gupta King oh chra Gupta the Gupta King okay so he says that I'm a Maha bhagwat okay so that inscription is also badly damaged but there are uh you know one or two inscriptions which I found very very fascinating I don't want to get into that because too much technical stuff and there's more to discuss on Maura and Kashi so as far as the epigraphic evidence is concerned I would like to stop here okay and then just to give you a cue uh then uh I pick up the story uh with the invasions of mm kasna okay so you know this is I think how much more proof do you want yes indeed yes you know mhm so then you can ask me if you want to ask me about mm kavi and what happened yeah yeah please let's let's talk about that okay so we know that mmud kabi on his ninth Invasion uh attacked Matra and you know he was so conscious of the place that he's creating for himself in the Islamic world that he always had a historian to accompany him who would record his great Deeds okay you know so uh this historian utbi he write that you know when we came to Mata we were dazzled when we saw those huge temples M and the intricate carvings and the Grandeur of that place we said that no man could have done it these temples would have been created by the gods themselves it's not possible for a human being any human being or many human beings to do this kind of intricate carving work on the temples that is they saw the temple from outside and they even describe some of the mortis describes many of the mortis okay and uh they're totally dazzled by the beauty but then uh the thing is that you know your ideology uh triumphs over your aesthetic sense if I can put it that way okay yes so then they proceed to destroy yeah so uh there doesn't seem to be anything left in Maura and uh it is a story that has actually told itself to us in the most unlikely ways okay so you know uh after mmud Nai left we really don't have much information on what was happening in MAA okay but about 100 years after mmud kavi uh we find fragment of an inscription of a young person I mean of a person how do I know he's young of a person whom we do not know from any other source so if this inscription had not been found or had been destroyed like much else we would not have known that this soil of India or of MAA had produced people of that you know tremendous connect with their Heritage okay so this is an inscription uh by I mean I don't know what to call him because they can I don't think any question of calling him King mhm maybe a feudal Lord or whatever okay so he's his name is Jaa okay and he is writing in that inscription again partially surviving that I'm building I've built the temple for Krishna okay now in those days there was no communication in the sense of you know newspapers or social media whatever m what means that for 100 years that memory of that attack on Matra was remembered by Ordinary People yes and they felt they had to do something yes and so this person builds this Temple now you know uh when we talk about building temples we should always remember that they are very small structures the rebuilt ones the rebuilt ones uh obviously they cannot have the Grandeur of the old ones and many of them are actually which I'll talk about in Kashi you know the pieces of the old destroyed temples they use them to build a small little Temple okay so he builds the temple how big it is we don't know much about it because the inscription is only partly there and then uh we know that that Temple was destroyed uh maybe by F tlak okay may be repaired and then destroyed by sikander loti okay but somehow something seems to have survived uh because you know a small thing you can go on repairing it yes so the next account that we have of Mata is from a Portuguese Jesuit okay you know the Jesuits were very determined to convert Akbar okay because they thought that you know uh he's we should try he's more amable to that so let us try okay and uh abbar used to invite everyone to his court to discuss even Jans came from Gujarat all the way walking till his because it took them six months to walk from Gujarat to D to a so he invited these Portuguese Jesuit he said you come and stay in my court okay uh so you know those conversations and all the Jesuits have recorded so one of them went to MAA and his account is there it has been translated into English and he says that you know these people did not know that their material is going to be so useful for us 400 years centuries later yes so uh he says that you know I went to MAA it's all desolate okay and he says there's only one Temple and it describes that Temple so after that the story of ma takes a very very interesting turn so if I have your permission absolutely so what happens is that then we have no story about MAA you don't know except uh this is something that I have to tell you that you know that sense of indianess uhhuh we have stories of people coming from telingana and settling in Mata telana to matur okay so we have uh the first person then another person comes and he actually uh you know uh institutes an image of Krishna okay and then we have chananya Maha prabu yes and bachara M they found two orders also you know CH he sends his disciples they said this whole place is Barren now so he says you have to go to Maura and find the Leela thals of Krishna okay so you know his disciples come and chanya Maha pru himself comes and to you know where can we say that this incident of Krishna Leela thals Radha K Etc so and wachara uh he is in jarand he was going on an all India uh you know Journey okay in fact actually his parents or family members uh were Priests of the vijar Kings okay that ancestry he had okay his family came from Priests of vij nagar Kings I see so he was in jarand and there you know he has a dream or what but a voice tells him go to MAA and there on this hill you will see I'm trapped free me from and balaba Jara goes to MAA to that hill and on digging or whatever he finds it an image so you know this was a very uh common practice in the medieval period that when your enemy is at your doorstep you cannot protect the temple there's no way that you can protect temples in any place because the temples were huge structures you can't hide those you can't hide them but you can hide or protect or save what is dearest to you in the temple the mor which is the morti yes so you know in my book flight of Duties I have uh provided case studies from Multan till Guru vayu where when the temples were attacked what did what happened to the MTI sometimes they buried them sometimes they ran off with them sometimes they threw them in the a water body so all these kind of things are there so in any case he finds this morti so obviously the mor would have been uh put there in a troubled period to project it yes so he finds the morti and he has a modest he creates a modest structure and he starts the Puja of that morti and uh so all these things happen and uh then uh coming to the case of jangi so so what I'm trying to say is that even when uh temples in that sense were not being built people were coming to reclaim matura yes you know and a temple I mean priests coming from all parts of India to come this our sacred territory we cannot leave it yes right you know people coming from telingana people coming from vij nagar I don't know where he was coming from he was somewhere his family was prast of the vagar Empire he was in jarand when he got this call and coming from pu and sending his disciples so all across India people felt that connection with yes why would anyone come from telingana indeed not one but two two you know religious leaders and one of them actually establishing a morti and when chat mahu came to MAA he said I will go and see that morti because he had heard about it but when he went to that place to see the morti of Krishna he was told that it has being taken away for security reasons okay you know so I mean this was a very uh common subject of discussion at that time that you have to be always Vigilant so the morti is established there but then when chat goes there it's not there because he says that we have moved it from here for security reason okay now to cut this story short because there's so much that one can talk about in this you know even the inscriptions I've not mentioned some some of them are absolutely fascinating but now to come to the next important event in the history of ma okay now you know that towards the end of akbar's Reign uh jangir had a Fallout with his father Yes because he suspected that Man Singh is trying to poison Akbar and say don't make Prince Sal or Jang your the successor successor make him make my your grandson the success so jangar revolts and sets up a rival Court while Akbar is alive uh so you know then he receives information that Akbar has summoned his close friend and Confidant Abul fil who was there in the dean abbar has said you please come so he contacts this young prince be Singh Vela okay be S bundela was one of the princes of the kingdom of OA his father had not made him the ruler okay so jangar contacts him and says you know Abul Fel is going to pass your kingdom if you send me his head I will make you king of Ora when I become the mugal emperor okay so and uh this is very Faithfully written by jangir in his aob biography to zuk jangiri okay so it's not noay or anything and then jangi writes that the head was presented to me since when I became emperor I made beer Singh the Raja of OA okay now this Raja of urcha Ora and matura they're quite far from each other okay and why should he be interested Ina I mean why should he be interested in Mata MH but he decides he will bring uh build the grandest temple possible in MAA okay and you know the uh quot historians and others of that period they write in detail how much gold he spent on building the Temple okay huge Grand structure could be seen Miles Away I see yeah and so this is the temple that be Singh bundela buils I see and this is the temple that is destroyed by Emperor orze okay so this is recorded in or's Deeds I mean in see the they never tried to hide anything M and you know this destruction of the temple uh manuchi the Italian traveler manui was an eyewitness oh he witnessed the destruction of the temp okay and Saki must Khan who was also there m he has written about it and he's reproduced many of akbar's or fans he also wrote about it and uh he writes that you know when the temple was being demolished the proud rajs they were shocked and stunned into silence when they see the temple crumbling and he described the response of the rajs very very vividly okay so this is what has happened in Matra mm so what is there now at the Janan now this Janan it's a very complicated story okay I'll just take 2 minutes to bring you up to date sure or bring your viewers up to date in uh 1770 the maratas won the Battle of Goan you know they were coming all the way from Dean yes they even made the mul Emperor The Prisoner yes they even went up to pav yes so uh the maratas won the Battle of Goan so this Matra area came under their control M so what they did they said that this entire area is government land okay nazul land mhm so when the maratas declared this as Naz land then uh you know the the Ida party mhm they left that area okay they said now there is nothing for us here we might as well go elsewhere and look for our livelihood okay so they leave who is the Ida Party by the way the Ida party we'll just come to that let me just huh okay so the maratas win the Battle of Gohan and the Ida party means that the Ida was whoever there was some Ida over there you mean a structure a mosque yeah okay so now what happens is that uh the British Takeover in 1803 MH they wi from the maratas they also declare that as the nazul land government land okay now this entire area I'm going to answer your question uh I call it Katra KV d i don't call it everyone calls it okay in the records of the British okay now this Katra kha da is 13.3 7 Acres okay so that he what 13.37 acres is this entire Katra all right now the point is since there is no Temple because the temple has been destroyed destroyed so there are small small you know someone has put up a shop somebody has tenants are there Muslim tenants are there whatever okay so uh Ida party leaves and the British become the rulers of that area and they continue the policy that this is government land all right now in 1815 they auctioned the entire Katra kab of 13.37 ACR okay they have a public auction okay and there is a banker in Banaras his name is Raja pnal he buys that land okay from the British yeah the entire 13.3 7 Acres it's not vacant land they're little little things over there okay including what you say maybe a Masjid okay obviously it was a Masjid mhm now uh Raja patal is entered as the owner of 13.37 acres in the British revenue and judicial records all right and after him uh his sons grandsons great grandsons they all entered as owners of 13.37 Acres okay this 13.37 acres is never partitioned okay among his heirs also all right it is always one unit all right now uh the British Judiciary as in the case of aoda they get complaints from the Masjid party okay that this entire thing is not the Ida part the not the temple party there's no Temple is not for Raja pnal M we are the owners and this and then they start fudging the documents and they said that this uh place was never called Katra it was called kraa okay so the British Judiciary you know they were very meticulous and very fair in these matters they heard each case with with great care and they looked at all the documents and I think there were 8 10 cases that were fought in the British period okay and in none of the cases did the idka party win I see they lost every case okay and the court also told them that you're behaving like hardened litigants when you're going on you know fighting filing case after case when we told you that it is you have no local standa in the matter and the entire 13 .37 Acres belongs to Katra kab they sold to Raja pnal and his family okay so this goes on now I have one thing I want to say is that you know Alexander kingham he visited Matra about six times okay and he written uh detailed reports on his visit and what he found in Matra because he was an archaeologist and the final report says that you know I've looked at this the foundations of the temple that beer Singh bundela built and from the foundations it is very clear that it was among the largest temples in all of India I see and he says that parts of that Temple you know have been used as Pavements for the Masjid I see because he say that you know I've seen this uh inscription on the pavement which say is that you know it it's mentioning the visit of a pilgrim okay so he's writing that I've come to pay my respects to kha r r okay so he says this the last eyewitness account that we have of that Alexander Kim says that you know this whole thing is decrepit desolate and you know it's in such bad state they're gaping holes in the wall and the ceiling and it can easily be demolished and excavations carried on okay this is the last that we have okay all right so there is no Grand Masjid that we see there today okay okay okay all right so now uh I think in 1944 The Heirs of Bal they say that you know we don't have the resource Our Father our grandfather whoever it was wanted to build a big Temple for Krishna clearly is not in our capacity so they tell jugul Kishore bah M that you know we have a a loan that we have taken of 13,000 rupees which we're not able to repay okay we don't want any money for this sacred territory you just repay our loan and take this okay so jugul Kish Bera becomes the owner of 13.37 Acres again there is no partition okay the entire thing h H he creates a trust with people like mad moan malvia M as trustees and they have one point agenda to build a grand Temple for Lord Krishna Lord Krishna now you know we're not very clear why that mandate could not be executed by this trust that Bera made okay sh Krishna jumi trust okay uh you know Madan moan Malia died soon after we don't know the reasons all right so the temple site is there but there is no Temple okay now the twist in the tail is something which is very very shocking and surprising for me and I'm sure it is for you okay so in 1968 this Katra kab da which had lost no case in the British period it gives 2 something acres of land to the idar party how come how come is the how come now since the Ida party had won no case among the dozens of cases that they filed in the British period Alexander Cunningham had said the it's gaping holes in the wall and ceiling and Katra kha da had never been partitioned the entire 3 13.37 had been given to jugul Kishore he had created a trust so now in 1968 this there is a new body which comes it is called the Shri Krishna sias s okay now SRI Krishna saas s is no legal entity it had no right over the land of Katra but it gives 2 something Acres of that land and to idka party now two questions arise first the present Ida is it built on that land which was given in 1968 because Alexander King said it was a decrepit thing this is not decrepit okay if it is built after 1968 the people's worship the place of worship act doesn't apply to [Music] it all right yes more important why was the land given indeed that's the real question that is the real question yes uh so in 1968 this is not my research this is the view of people that uh the Congress government was in a minority government and it needed the support of outside support mhm maybe of the Muslim League and the Communist Party okay and the deal was according to people uh prominent congressmen like DB Mishra were involved in the in facilitating this okay but it is a real shocking thing and is real surprising thing but for me what was most surprising was that you know when this controversy broke out last year MH uh many TV channels were talking to Ordinary People in Matra or ordinary Muslims and they all knew about it okay they said 196 okay I mean I'm impressed by my own ignorance let me put it this way that I didn't know about this 1968 agreement okay perhaps because I had not studied MAA but even then that is not an a sufficient excuse I feel but in 1968 this land was given the land was obviously given from Katra so the present Masjid is occupying the territory of the Mand party yes and I had gone to Maura sometime ago and you know I went and what those people told me that that that you know goofa that they have created as the site of the birth they say it is artificially created okay the real cell where he was born is actually under the Masid okay so I cannot verify M this but uh I do feel that you know it shows something about animosity that when you're getting if you've got that 2 point whatever Acres why do you have to keep that cell where he was where people believe he was born I don't know whether this is true or not but many of the people I met there said the birthplace the cell where he was born C's prison is actually in the area which has been occupied by the M okay so you know I mean I am I cannot explain this kind of animosity towards an indigenous ancient civilization ethos spiritual tradition if it is true that the cell where he was born is actually I have no means of verifying but this was the common refrain but on the TV channels when this case was came into the Limelight last year they interviewed many ordinary Muslims and they said why you raking this up now 1968 agreement okay so it it is it was common knowledge it's people like us sitting in our rarified atmosphere that we didn't know about it okay everyone there know knew about this so is there a case now a court case uh first the courts refused to accept the case so they turned it down two three times okay then finally theyve accepted they've admitted the case uh beyond that I cannot say all right because uh you know admitting the case how long it will take what will they ask for what is the solution m I mean even if the entire facts that I've presented to you are there what do the way out okay and surprising that you know when the Masjid was being built nobody knew about it that's the real surprise here but that means that the Masjid and Mand were built simultaneously I I suspect okay isn't it m because when the land was was handed over to the Masjid party at that time the construction of the temple would have begun because the Krishna Temple was not built uh in the early 20th century or some it's a temple that was built by the Birra family or Representatives or whoever came on the trust because later Dalia G also came on the trust so the point is it is a post Independence structure and the way I think about it the area that was ConEd to the Masjid they would have left that area aside and the two structures are adjoining if you've been to Mata they're adjoining okay so were the two structures constructed side side by side okay interesting at the same time uhhuh so you know it's a case of mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma or whatever you want to say something that happened in the 1960s late 60s which is like day before yesterday yeah we still don't know what happened yeah that's incredible but uh the case that has been filed if it is pursued to its logical conclusion then it should provide answers yes which we may not be prepared to accept I am sure that's wow it's really quite an eye open now wow I mean for 2,000 years or 2,500 years they kept that site the Hindus and then in 1968 the British did not allow you know bation or division on that side they said it is Katra kab M and they they said that you're tampering with the written documents the strictures that the British judges passed against the idka party they were really as harsh as they could be okay and they said we have examined every bit of evidence and you know they were so meticulous they give such exhaustive judgments and in spite of all that evidence what was the comp compulsion what was the compulsion in having an agreement in 1968 because the other side had no case there's no case here so I mean can political survival explain these enigmas a wonder and can you go to that extent to survive politically you know it is very interesting that the people who were involved in this m that Seas s has not offered any explanation okay nobody has asked asked the sa son what was the comp compulsion what was your local standi you're not member of the trust how could you give away land that you don't you don't own which they don't own yes it's like me gifting your house indeed yeah so what is my local standard yes so uh and you know this agreement of 1968 was actually kept a secret and I think it was uh the uh mulam Singh government I think it was asked by the court uh it was asked some question and then it said in the uh court that this is the agreement that is when ordinary people came to know about the 1968 agreement this was in the '90s yeah whenever he was in chief chief minister Chief Min okay I mean it's very difficult to understand the the logic the motivations of politicians in Independent India right so things actually got worse after we got our so-called Independence yes obviously it seems like that right uh and and U I think that uh the demolition of babri Masjid I think it had consequences outside aoda which were really not aware of till recently you know how politicians felt compelled to act against the interests of the party which owned that area so I mean I really it's a very very sad episode and it was a shocking experience for me and the fact that the court refused to accept the plea twice it turned it down that's yeah that's on top of that that's on top of that when all the evidence is there how much evidence I've provided you yes and I mean that is not the entire evidence yes and the British judicial records don't they count for anything the the present Judiciary is built on top of the right yeah but the to to be very fair to the British they did a very meticulous job and they were very impartial in this case and uh I don't know how when you have nothing you can get away with 2 point something acres of land which doesn't belong to you now let us see because you know I I don't expect anything dramatic to happen yeah in Matra soon mhm uh the only thing is is that you know uh Supreme Court is supposed to have said that we can reexamine the validity of the places of worship Act of 1991 okay when they will examine They Don't Know M right so that's an open that's an open-ended statement it could happen in the next 200 years absolutely open-ended right right so that's the deal so right now that's where we are as respect with respect to the that's why I'm saying aoda is a rare Victory right considering the legal system that we are under and 500 years it took us 500 years yes so let's see how long when the alabad high court asked the Muslim party please show us one bit of evidence of your presence in 300 for 300 years where is your voice we don't get anything I mean wasn't that a giveaway totally yes yes and they could not produce any bit of evidence to justify their presence there what were you doing there by yes right so that was clear case totally yeah and MAA they have just infiltrated into that complex in 1968 yeah yeah that's that's I mean I wasn't aware of this myself this is the first time I'm hearing of it yeah I mean I was totally shocked I was expecting that mosque would have stood there for a couple of hundred years something this mosque according to what I understand was built after 1968 on Temple property wow this is unspeakably like it's an incredible betrayal by whom that's the question and for what for what and what did the other side give is what I want to know actually what was the deal yes yes that is something that is really worth investigating oh yeah that needs to come out that needs to come out because it cannot be that they were given that Temple land in free they would have been asked to pay a price let give and take over here yeah yes yeah all right all right so this is where we are today with respect to Krishna Jan what about the Kashi vishwanath Temple that's another big yeah but uh but you know I'm quite hopeful of Kashi mhm uh first of all the evidence is tremendous okay second point is that once the ASI survey has been ordered and when the ASI submits its report what will the court do next M so I will briefly uh summarize the history of the Kashi okay so Kashi as we know was a very important center of Buddhists Jans Hindus what we call Hindus they were not called Hindus at that time but as a shortcut yes so the excavations that have uh been conducted at Kashi uh at the earliest site was what is called rajat okay so that you know they have found about 900 BC mhm so that itself is 3,000 years yes and again Kashi suffers from the the same fate as aodha and matura in the sense that it was attacked again and again MH so uh what they have found in Kashi is absolutely very very fascinating okay I'm talking about the early Antiquity okay uh I just to give you one example that you know schools of Vedas each branch of The Vedas had its own School and they would have their special seals okay so you know many of those seals of those Vic schools have been found in the excavation I see so it's a very fascinating we know that Buddha came there m mahavir was supposed to have gone there uh two of the J tankers were born there Yun s came there he wrote about the mahashiv mahash maheswar okay the grand Temple people of Mah maheswar and so many other uh you know accounts that we have but I want to cut the long story short uh so because I'm working on it m okay so I would like to uh begin with the attacks on Kashi okay the first attack was by mmud gazn gaz's son and the next year by his nephew okay so I think 10:30 you know something one attack after another okay two attacks but uh what is remarkable is the response of the Hindu political leadership mhm uh you know uh till the time of the attacks kaj was the imperial capital mhm everyone wanted to capture kaj okay you know like Dilly yes so uh when the attacks took place then the ruling dynasty was that of the gals yes they were ruling in kaj MH that was their capital and they were very important power mhm and they shift their Capital to Banaras okay and they issue Charters copper Charters which have survived some of them in which they say that we are the Defenders of tis aodha prag and Kashi okay so they are projecting themselves as Defenders of Hinduism or it's and shifting their capital in those times it's a remarkable thing and the other thing is that Goin Chandra was the most important ruler of that dynasty he levies a tax tush Dand tush Dand okay tush means Turks Turks and D is the punishment punishment that you have have to pay this because we need a large army so you have to contribute okay so I don't know of any other example in India where a ruler is living a tax on the subjects to prepare himself and his kingdom for the Turkish Onslaught this is really remarkable incredible incredible uh now I will cut the story short uh the last ruler of that dynasty gadal was jand he was exe defeated by Muhammad Gori so the gadwal dynasty comes to an end right then this Muhammad gor's uh commander in chief kin ebok MH he attacks V Kashi in a very very forceful manner the first two attacks of mmud gnavi son and nephew were nothing compared to what follows so he attacks he uh is the first person to destroy the gashi vishwanath temple okay it's recorded okay and it destroys so much and you know there are persan accounts of how many camels took away the wealth wealth treasure yeah but it was not only for wealth of course yes so uh what is really surprising is that within 15 years of this devastating attack on Kashi a king of Bengal comes and he erects what he calls the pillar of victory in the heart of Kashi okay you know like we say in Hindi jard uh so you know saying that this is our territory okay so it is for whom vishara the god of gods the king of universe okay he doesn't have the money or the time to build a temple but he erects a pillar okay so this is the kind of response from Bengal from Bengal he comes here when people from telingana could come to yodha this person is coming from Bengal and doing this now uh you know the political history of this region uh it is not very clear in the sense we have accounts but what I would like to mention is the arrival of six maharan Brahman families they come from the dean and they locate themselves in Kashi okay now it relocate themselves in Kashi is not that some king of Kashi was waiting to welcome them and all yes I mean they the hardships from there and to come to this place and they are so important important in the civilizational history of the Hindus okay so I'll mention only one family that is the BTA family okay and uh the first important member of that family is Naran bhat Naran bhat writes a text which has survived and come to us okay it is called the three thali satu and he writing about sacred centers and he says to the devote you know that when you come to Kashi you will not find the Ling there okay but it is your Dharma to keep the Dharma of that place alive so every day you have to go there and in your mind imagine that the Ling is there circum ulate do the Puja and go okay and he is uh you know he's with to Mal son he's responsible for rebuilding the Kashi vishan Temple okay so this Temple is built then what happens is his great grandson this in the time of Akbar okay he's built the toward the end of akbar's Reign okay uh then I want to quickly shift to his great grandson whose name was Gaga bhat okay now Gaga but was living in the time of or okay he's in Kashi when shivaji escapes from Agra for mhm not from Agra Fort but from J Singh son's Palace he had been imprisoned there so he meets kaghat and it is said that these families they helped him to reach back safely to the dean okay now after that gabat goes to uh the dean because he wants to uh pray at his family Temple of ma bani okay and from there he goes to to meet shivaji at RAR okay and he tells shivaji or shivaji tells him it's not very clear that in the interest of Hindu swaraj M it's important that you are coronated as king okay because you're not a king mhm so uh no King had been coronated as per the Vic rights for such a long time okay so he said I will go back study the text and find out the procedure and get back to you okay so he prepares that procedure for the consecration of a Hindu king Asic rights that has come down to us okay and then he goes back and he actually presides over the coronation of shivaji okay and shivaji becomes chhatrapati shivaji Maharaj right so imagine these individuals like gagat what kind of wisdom foresight they had then you know uh when uh after shivaji's death when shaii comes to the throne he tells Gaga you please come for my thing also but by that time Gaga had taken SAS okay and become too old and he said I'll send somebody but I cannot do it so this is the family this is the family which projects or protects shivaji and tries to elevate him to a level that is comparable to or because he is now not shivaji he is chhatrapati shivaji Maharaj right the BS the B uh then you know uh we know that or Z got the temple destroyed that has also been recorded but uh I just want to conclude uh by saying that you know uh Scholars like Professor alar he was a professor of ancient Indian history at bhu okay and in the 1930s he wrote a book on Banaras okay and you know at that time uh the temple I mean everybody could enter the temple at will so the Hindu used to go there regularly and alar also went there okay and he saw you know and he said that according to my study the temple that Naran B and toal built was on the site of another earlier Temple as in aodha okay which was destroyed it was a temple built in the 145th Century but was destroyed by sikandar Loi okay so according to Hindu Maha text once a temple property always a temple property uhuh and so Gaga I mean sorry Naran B and toor there was no Temple there because Temple had been destroyed but there was no mid there so they said why should we not built on top of this how can we surrender it site right so according to alar they built that temple on the ruins of an existing Temple okay which or Z later destroyed okay now the case over in Kashi I find very interesting because there is so much documentation again I would you know I don't want to get into legal cases but there is a lot of legal evidence of the British intervening and saying these these gods of Hindus are woried in this complex okay etc etc all substantiating the claims of the Hindus and they say that you know namas should be only till this area you should not extend that area and they mention all the uh you know DTS that the Hindus worship over there okay and alar makes one point which I found very interesting he says that you know the Hindus come there and they worship the prak and aak duties okay that means the duties that are visible you we can see on the walls Etc and those that are not visible now who are those D which are those duties which are no longer visible they are those duties who fell before the sword of the Invader okay so imagine the people knew that this God was here this God was here this God was here and they would come and pray to all those dets okay now coming to the present the present case is very interesting m because so many people who were residents of a Yoda in the 1930s they gave evidence as Witnesses in the British period that these these things are there in the temple and we have the British Secretary of State also writing so the evidence is fantastic okay the point is that now when the ASI submits its report to the court M at some point it will yes what will the court do then mhm that's the interesting point it is because according to my guess I mean h the ASI has to say that there's a Temple beneath the temple yes the temple parts are visible now the back wall is visible yes alar has said there's a Temple below the temple and he has given the pictures Etc one picture is given of a pillar so it's very clear that the m is built on a temple there's no doubt about it mhm there's none there's none because the parts of the temple are visible to the naked eye yes now after the ASI gives its report which we can only presume we say that there was a temple there yes it cannot say that the Masid was built on Barren land because the temple wall is there yes then what is the court going to say is my question well that lies up that depends on the wisdom of the court I would say yeah but but it's not going to be easy decision yeah but it'll be a very interesting decision to watch it will and wait for it will be yes so that's where we are right now that's we are that's the situation but I hope the ASI gives its report in the next month M so the Day of Reckoning is soon is soon it is upon us soon is it upon us soon so the investigation the the archaeological survey is ongoing is it right now yes yes I see okay so that that should come up soon then okay and then the court will we wait yes we will wait for that with waited breath okay so that that is the case yes okay so that's just three cases that we've discussed Ram Mand Krishna jomi Kashi vishwanath I'm sure there are hundreds thousands there are hundreds but we cannot discuss today we cannot discuss those L right I would like to conclude with with a discussion about we have so many historians academics we have universities all around the country historians are supposed to research things and and bring out the facts what have our historians been doing all these decades I mean all the facts are out there no but they have been busy covering the facts so that's been their uh according to what I can as a they have been uh Brave Pioneers like sitaram goel uhhuh Hindu temples what happened to them yes know he wrote this thing but by and large he was not in the University system yes he was not yeah so in the University system we just pretend that this thing never happened the entire genocide of the past and any temple in North India which is before the 18th century it's difficult to imagine the entire Banaras is 18th century marata contribution yes yes now that ancient architecture surviv nothing nothing nothing I I read somewh that the the place that they called faab was built from the dest destroyed ruins and repurposed structures of the actual City yeah right so everything in North India has been wiped out absolutely uh in fact there is a book you know on fatur sik uhhuh uh that has when the ASI started the excavations then they were shocked to find one J statue after another okay I mean a plora of J statues so then the government said you please stop the excavation okay it's too it's too dangerous it's too dangerous too many truths are coming out but uh the ASI they had photographed what they found because they're supposed to do document that document okay so those public photographs have been published all right so they've reared all those things I don't know whether they've reared but they were told kindly stop okay when was this uh this was I think in the after 1980 okay so that's fatur yeah it's a totally gen site and they found beautiful beautiful fulls size life siiz images of tankers and the most beautiful sarasti ever made was found at that site and you know the people who venerated her or made her they buried her with her face down okay so that she doesn't get damaged okay but you know it was impossible for them to uh you know detach her from her pedestrial so they to cut the feet these are very very pathetic stories that you where is this statue today uh I don't know where it is today but uh it is I've seen the pictures and the ASI was in charge of all this they were doing their Duty they were doing their duty of course so they were told to stop then they cannot say they can't proceed further obviously but the good thing is that the photographs have all survived but shouldn't the statue survive they would have I hope so where is it I don't know where it is but you know uh these uh headless tankers so many of them huge images so you can imagine what a grand site it was it must have been yes you look at anywhere rudra Mahal I mean it's very sad and rudra Mahala they have found in situ I think five or six shielings okay even that site is what is the status of that site no there is no status there is a part of it was converted into a mosque okay and that's where it remains that's what the it is right now right so so that's the situation that's the status okay everything has been destroyed and we are trying the government everybody is trying to suppress what happened uh so I can only see that we have very long way to go oh we just begin to really recover as a civilization we taking baby steps aren't that's where we are we are the initial stage of hopefully some kind of civilizational Awakening yeah are you optimistic I can't say h i Am uh waiting with eager eagerness to see the response of the court in Kashi yes because it's a open and shut case but then how long will it take and what will the court say then they will go to the Supreme Court of course so you know it's a long time and uh I don't know how this whole thing will close because many people say that why you trying to rake up issues so I said at the time of audya the Hindu party had offered made this offer that you give us these three revered sides we will not take back anything more we will not ask for anything more okay they had offered the Masjid party give us Kashi MAA and aoda okay but they said what nonsense they didn't take the offer seriously now they must be repenting okay you know mhm but you know the aodha thing was very different in the sense that it was a people's movement it was yes it was long drawn out whereas I don't know what is the state of mobilization of the people in the case of Kashi and MAA okay I think they're actually court cases mhm yeah so it it'll play out in court yeah M and how it plays out in court is going to be very very interesting so that remains to be seen yeah all right well thank you so much for genuinely eye opening discussion I did not know any of these things thank you so much thank you so much for inviting me it was a real pleasure thank you so much thank you so thank you if you enjoyed this conversation please join my telegram Channel where you can be part of lively and engaging conversation centered around geopolitics and the topics that I discuss with other like-minded people and please don't for forget to like And subscribe on YouTube thank you very much

Channel: Abhijit Chavda

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Id: 2Y1NOgIWlIQ

Length: 117min 58sec (7078 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 27 2023