The Archeological Survey of India, we had a lot of hopes because for archeology, as BJP will come to power, then it will get a lot of support, we were thinking this. But it was a I mean, this one, illusion. I call it as a dark age of Archeological Survey. -Really!
-Yes, really, really, really. I'm saying it openly. Because the Archeological Survey of India has never been in such a bad condition. You are always asked
about the Ayodhya issue. Yes, yes, yes. You were a very key figure
in that whole story. So all the pillars of the mosque on which this mosque stood were the pillars of the temple. So the question comes, how would you say that this is a pillar of a temple, a pillar of a mosque, or a pillar of a church? The inscription that was found, at the time when the mosque
was demolished. And that is a 20-line inscription. Where it has been clearly written, this temple is dedicated to 'Dark Lord Vishnu'. Who has killed a 10-headed person. Who is that 10-headed person? Ravan. Welcome back friends
to Ajio presents The Ranveer Show. History and archeology are my favorite topics for any TRS episode. So far three great archeologists have come on the show. But today's archeologist is considered a legend
of the world of archeology. K.K. Muhammed has achieved it in style throughout his career. Have done a lot of things. If you have even a little interest in history, archeology, you will find today's episode
very interesting, friends, today's outfit has been styled by Ajio, if you want a similar outfit, then download the Ajio app and start shopping immediately. Today's episode In K.K. Muhammed sir, will teach a lot about history, real Indian history. Enjoy the episode 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 K.K. Muhammed sir, welcome to TRS, how are you? Thank you so much, thank you so much. Doing great. Very good. You people who are intellectuals of this country, who have dedicated their whole life, to the country, to studies, are being celebrated today -because of the podcasting culture.
-Yes. I also told you outside that you have many fans on the internet, do you know this? No, I don't know, I don't know. Because we are not that interested in social media, etc. Don't find it that interesting. But why do you think people's interest has increased so much in archeology, in history? According to you, why is all this happening? Is all because of this media, otherwise, 20-25 years ago, no one used to pay attention to it. No one even used to think about it. Archeology, it is just an old thing. Archeologist would mean, very long hair, very big beard, wearing a very dirty kurta. That's what people used to think. But now that has changed. Is all because of the social media. What is the truth known by people according to you? What have they found out
about archeologists? People know very less about archeology. But now there is a little curiosity in it. Because it is a very curious subject. You have to demystify this archeology. Before every episode I do a lot of research. I have understood about archeologists, that you have to choose a topic, -overall, for your own career.
-Yes. Means first you study about archeology, study about history. But at the beginning of your career, you choose a specific topic, for your life, which is that topic of yours? Actually, there is a specialization
in this. But even after doing that specialization, It is not necessary, you go only in that. Because wherever your posting is, you will have to change according to that. For example, if you are in Madhya Pradesh, There is a lot of pre-historic period
in Madhya Pradesh. Like there are the Great Bimbetka Caves, about that one has to go into prehistory, Then historical archeology, is Sanchi. Explain what is prehistory. Prehistory is such a thing, where the earlier man used to not have anything in writing. Couldn't read or write either. So how did they manage in those days, what is that history so even in that, one there is prehistory, there were absolutely no weapons etc., only stone tools were there in those days. Had to work with that. Then it is called protohistory. By then, writing came into existence. But it has not been deciphered yet. We do not know. Like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro has. That is called protohistory. Then comes historic period. How did the development happen
in the historic period? Like there is our Sanchi, there is Sanchi of Madhya Pradesh. Then in the same way, after the historical period, the Gupta period comes. The Gupta period then the medieval period, like Montu, Fatehpur Sikri, or Taj Mahal, all these come in the medieval period. So wherever is your posting, according to that posting, you will have to change
your specialization. And where you are posted, sometimes there are dacoits too, sometimes there are mafia too, you have said a lot outside. Exactly, sometimes there will be dacoits, sometimes there will be Naxals. When I was posted in Chhattisgarh, I had to connect with many Naxals. Otherwise, you just cannot survive. How are they? They are simple, ordinary people. You won't assume him to be a Naxal. Naxal may be the title. They had even caught me. Had caught you? Yes, getting caught means, not in that sense. Because there was no enmity etc. There is a Samlur temple group. Had to walk 8 kilometers by road in those days. We reached there. It was 9:30. So by then some people came, some people from outside came and started talking to us. You will not feel it is a Naxal group. So asked me my address. I gave the address. But they wanted my Kerala address. Then I got a little suspicious. Then later I said, when I understood, I asked, look after 1,000 years someone has come to fix this temple, Because of that, the money that is being given, the poor people here are getting money. And if you say, we will stop the work here. But we will divert the money
somewhere else. Second thing, ask these people whether we are paying them any less than the amount
given by the government or not. So those people said, we have already studied the whole thing. Then I asked them, look, are we using any less stone
or material in this? They said we also have engineers with us, we studied that too. Then I asked, why are you holding us. So they said, look, we have to run our movement, so it needs some money. So I said if it is a small amount, I will arrange it. How much money did they ask? That time, it was in 2003-2004. So they asked for ₹10,000. It was a very big amount, but it was not much amount. But they did one more thing. So until then, they said, when Naxal groups come from Andhra, we will inform you then. You stop the work for 10-15 days. After they depart, will inform again. So that was a kind of arrangement. So in those places, in Jagdalpur, in Samlur, in Narayanpur, if you want to stay there, will have to make some adjustments. This is a part
of an archeologist's job profile. -It is part and parcel of it.
-Okay That would be
some occupational hazards for you. Like a policeman, they have to fight criminals. Or an army man, has to fight with enemies. So in the same way these are occupational hazards
of an archeologist, it can be handled very legitimately and you can also talk to them
very comfortably. Then they were all our friends. Can you share the mining mafia story, which you… It was in Bateshwar. Bateshwar is in Chambal valley. -Chambal?
-Is in Chambal. There used to be dreaded dacoits
in Chambal, in those days. Because when I went, that was from the last period of 2004. From 2004 to 2008,
it was a dacoit territory. That whole area,
that is the area of Chambal. So it is also MP, it also UP, it also Rajasthan, the whole area. So will commit crime here in MP, will cross Chambal, then police will not catch there. Will commit crime there, cross Chambal to this side, will get saved. So in the same way, but those three Governments
made a task force They said that they will arrest
them wherever. Whether it is in UP, Bihar, sorry… UP, Madhya Pradesh, will not see all that. Then they were in big trouble. So were running. Met these people at the same time. But there was a very big police officer. Whose name is Vijay Raman. Vijay Raman is that police officer Who completely liquidated Paan Sing Tomar, had killed him, he was that big police officer. So he had a name and fame of his own. Ghazi Baba who was a Pakistani terrorist, The man behind that this one, bombarding our parliament house. He was also killed by his group. So, I got the benefit
of meeting Vijay Raman sir. His wife was working
with Tourism Department. Veena Raman. So, it was very beneficial. So through him we went to the dacoits and told the dacoits that… they informed that Muhammad is our man and they are coming for temple work, there shouldn't be any problem. How are dacoits in real life, when you go to meet? When you go closer in real life, they are all human beings. We had another advantage some surrendered dacoits were there. We also took them into our group first. Means they had left the group of bandits and now joined you. They joined us. They just informed. This is our man and he is coming for temple work. Was there any Gabbar Singh-type character? Gabbar Singh types are there even now. Even today you will find
many people like Gabbar Singh. Also if goes to the market, his gun will always be on it, will be on the shoulder. Even today, it is there. All that has not changed. But how is the way of talking? To talk, because, you know, once they are convinced that you are doing a very good work, then they will give you full help and support. -Support?
-Yes, will get full support. Means protection. You will also get protection, you can also include them in your work. The lower group that was there, We had one Lakhan Singh, earlier he was a very well-known dacoit. But then he surrendered and after that he became
an employee in Madhya Pradesh. So, I had called him to my Bhopal office. And because of him we formed a cooperative society there. Nowadays that cooperative society, is giving ₹2 lakh to their employees, in loan, in loan. So can do such a good work. You are reestablishing temples
across the country. Especially the temples that were broken. -I am reconstructing.
-Reconstruct. I am reconstructing. Actually, in archeology there are two jobs. There are so many temples that… The temple here, the Bateshwar temple. This was in a forest area. There were dacoits. That's why it survived. All the parts of those 12 temples, we found all of it there. Otherwise, what happens often people take that. Used it at home or used elsewhere. But that's not what happened here. The whole of it remained there because of the bandits. So it was easy for me, that once we got their permission, it became very easy for us
to reconstruct it. So 80 temples we have been able to reconstruct there. I would like to ask you
a strange question. Why are you reconstructing? There are two reasons for reconstructing. One is Archeological reason. Archeological reason is that, you have, all the parts are there. By simply joining and piecing it together you are doing its reconstruction work. But for me
it holds a little more philosophy. What is that philosophy? I am admitting this, when Muslims came to India as invaders they demolished many temples. I accept it. Unlike the Marxist Historian. Marxist Historian tries to justify it. It was not for this. It was for gold and silver. I do not accept all those things. I say that Muslims have razed many. And I have to atone for that. In a very subdued way, I want to atone for that. That is why whenever I make a temple because I have reconstructed
more than 100 temples in many places. Whenever I reconstruct it. On my mind for me, I am atoning for that. God didn't give chance to many people for this. There is an engineer he will not get that. If there is any other doctor he will not get that chance, or there is a lawyer he will not get, but God gave me a chance and I am doing it a good job on it. So it is a kind of repentance, repair work for me. As an archaeologist or as a human being when you reconstruct a temple, what do you feel, when you see that final product in front of you. What happens in your heart? There is an infinite satisfaction. You need to see
what condition it was in before, now you have reconstructed the abode of Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu or Lord Brahma. You are doing it. So, it is a kind of, I mean, you will get tremendous satisfaction. And because of that, people are also loving you. They also know that he is doing the entire reconstruction work. This is a great investment because people are coming
from all over the world to see this. They also say, wow! Such a big task. When we show them the photographs what condition it was lying in, and when such a big temple
is standing in front So they themselves join together, you have done such a great job. Before the beginning of construction, when those parts are lying there, even then you feel some energy field
in that area? Exactly because, I had that kind of vibration, which we say. When I went for the first time to that place, because these people gave permission. Which place are you talking about? I am talking about Bateshwar. When I went to Bateshwar, could go only after taking permission
from the dacoits. Because they are observing you what all you are doing. So going over there, it was lying down in a very bad way. Everything was lost in a huge earthquake. It was unlike an ordinary place, everything was over. So the moment you get there and see this scene, you will get a strange feeling. You feel that there is a kind of energy, a kind of vibration and you have been given a chance to reconstruct it. Then you feel, what a great call you have from God. So that energy is a huge energy. And that still sustains me. I had to face a lot of difficulties. Like you said, this mining, once till the dacoits were there the work did not stop, but once the bandits
were eliminated one by one by November 2005, the last dacoit, I mean, there was a dacoit
called Nirbhay Singh Gujjar, his group was eliminated, Then there was the Gadariya group, they were there till 2008. So after that the mining lobby came, they started rampant mining. Mining lobby means some rich people who invest money in a mining project and also get mining done
through illegal means in some areas. -Absolutely, absolutely.
-So that mining goes on, they keep pouring money into that project, they keep bribing the officials and people like you who are working in the same area face problems in your work. For us, it is not just a problem. Whatever we have constructed, this temple, due of its vibration, is crumbling Means, fine, because of mining. Due to mining, yes. Because of the tremors of mining, our temples were crumbling down. Means the earth is getting weak. Yes of course, due to vibration. Earth and our temple too because it started developing crack. Then it started falling. Then I wrote to various authorities, no one was giving a hearing. Then we tried more. Still nothing happened. There was a minister, I also wrote a letter to him. Went to him and said sir, my temples are falling down. So he told me, Muhammed ji, I didn't get that letter of yours, his name was Lakshmikant Sharma. He is deceased now. He was then also jailed
in the Vyapam case. So I wrote a letter again. Went again, Muhammed ji, didn't get that letter of yours. Then I had to do such a thing, that a government servant should not do. But I knew
there was no other way to stop it. So what I did was, a very good letter, Sudarshan ji
was the chief of RSS at that time. So, I wrote a very good letter
to Sudarshan ji. I said sir you say you are the savior of temples and here in your Madhya Pradesh you have your own ministry, it is BJP's ministry. I have saved so many temples
here till now, have reconstructed them, but now it's all starting to fall. So it was a hard-hitting letter. But he took action immediately. Within 24 hours
he pulled up the Chief Minister. Police rushed to the area. The other mining party
was very well armed. Nothing happens there without weapons. They were very well armed. Exchange of fire took place
between people. In the end the police suppressed them. So the mining stopped. So an encounter took place there. Lot of encounters, well that's a common thing there. I survived but there was a young police IPS officer. In continuation to that, later in 2012, there was a young IPS officer, dropped him under an illegal mine tractor
in such a bad way and drove the vehicle over him. So, it goes to such an extent
in that area. So have to tolerate all this. That is also part of the occupational hazard. If you want to work behind closed doors, you can do that as well. But you want to change, so you have to do
a bit of this kind of work also sometimes. -Or have to witness such things.
-Yes. Was it done after kidnapping? -That IPS.
-Kidnappings were frequent here and there at that time. So this police officer who was there, his name was Narendra Kumar, was a very young IPS officer. In the month of March in 2012, he was brutally killed by these people. And his wife was an IAS officer. That's why there was some action too. And very young, very energetic, very potential person. I did not meet him. But later, because till then, in 2008, I was transferred to Delhi. Preparations for the Commonwealth Games
were going on in Delhi. So, I was transferred to Delhi. Then I was in Delhi. But when I went home, in Kerala, then there I found out, that a young officer
has been killed so brutally. My God. In 2023,
what is the reality of the country? Of archeology? Of Archeological Survey of India. On which topics more research is being done, more digging is being done? The Archeological Survey of India, we had a lot of hopes because for archeology, as BJP will come to power, then it will get a lot of support, we were thinking this. Many people thought that, Because in their period. Like in Vajpayee sir's period, we had a very good minister at that time Jagmohan ji. He was a powerful and a visionary, dynamic minister. So we were hoping of the same era to come. But it was an illusion. I worked in Archeological Survey of India
for 24 years. And before that, for 10 years, I was in Aligarh Muslim University, I was in archeology. So I was closely in contact with this one, the Archeological Survey of India. But such a dark age, in this period, which has happened in the last 9 years, we have never seen such a dark age -in Archeological Survey of India before.
-Why? At first we had financial power, So that was for ₹25 lakhs for the superintending archaeologist. This superintending archeologist is that post, which can get the job absolutely done. Directly in getting the work done. So by ending the power
of 25 lakhs completely, their power was reduced a lot. The rest, full concentration of power shifted to the Delhi office. That's why a structural conservation should have happened, structural conservation… There are two types of conservations. One is if you want to tidy up the temple and want to repair it, so that is called structural conservation. This is the real work of Archeological Survey of India. You want to build
a peripheral boundary wall, you have to build a toilet, you have to make cafeteria, it's all peripheral works. So the structural work in this period, has decreased a lot in the last 9 years and one had finished the power. Then I wrote a letter to various people. I also wrote and a lot of people tried because when it got reduced so much, it got spoiled, Archeological Survey of India, a lot of people wrote, I also wrote after that the power got restored a bit 2-3 years back. Then the money that used to be funded was diverted to rest of the peripheral works like building a toilet. Built big-big toilets where not need. You are a very experienced archeologist. You have worked
in the reconstruction of many temples. You have seen the history of the country
very closely. According to you, what the Government of India is doing now. For the country's archeology, for historical searches of the country, that is wrong? That is wrong. Means the work is not being done
the way it should be. Has not happened. I call it as a dark age of Archeological Survey. -Really!
-Yes, really, really, really. I'm saying it openly. Because the Archeological Survey of India has never been in such a bad condition. You're saying something very intense on the podcast -and I would also like to say that.
-Yes. People like you these days are getting a lot of support
on the internet so whatever you say, many youths
are going to be affected by this and according to me your voice will reach the government. What would you like to say? No of course, the government should take care of it. Because it is such a department that is entirely dependent
on heritage, tourism. The government also wants a lot of tourists to come to India. Of course, the government wants. But the way in which this department should have been looked at, should have been supported, that kind of work has not been done yet, except in the Congress period it was good, it was okay. Jagmohan ji, well, he supported very well. That was the golden age of Archeological Survey of India. What should be the change? Now the change is well that, one is call the officers
of Archaeological Survey of India, what is the strength of ASI, the ASI is an elephant whose strength-- Due to the very big ears of an elephant are not able to understand
how much power they have. So to understand this, the Archeological Survey of India should be strengthened. Its infrastructure is very weak. Means you are saying, those who are working in ASI, their capabilities are very high but they do not get support. The strength of the organization itself, each monument has so much strength -that you can make it great.
-Yes, yes, okay. You should market that heritage. If you go to Nalanda, you will get some structures. You will walk on that structure. Yes, was an old university, was a big university, you will say all this. But what are you bringing with you? My point is that first of all whenever a person goes there, there should be an interpretation center, foremost, you take the ticket and go to that interpretation center. There should be a small 15-minute movie, there should be a documentary film. What is Nalanda? Nalanda is the place where Lord Buddha himself used to come and sit 'Ekam Samayam Bhagava Nalanda Viharati Vavarigam Brabane' Once Lord Buddha
himself came and sat there It's a holy place. This is that place where Hiuen Tsang
came after crossing 16,000 kms to study. From China. It had a great university. Ratnaganja, Ratnodadhi, Ratnasagar. There were three great universities, which was fully destroyed
by Bakhtiyar Khilji. He burned out the whole thing. It is said that when he lit the fire, that fire stayed lit for a week. Yes, all that is imaginary. But these three names… That is all right. Only then people will understand. But there were these 3 great universities, Hiuen Tsang himself took 756 manuscripts on 20 horses from here. 756 manuscripts in that era. 400 manuscripts were taken by I-tsing to China. It is such a big university. But those who go there, whenever you keep your foot, you should know that you are walking over the same step of Lord Bhagawan Buddha. You are walking over the same soil on which the great Hiuen Tsang who had crossed 16,000 km to come and study in this university. You are walking on the same holy land. If you make a documentary like this, after watching all this, then an informed guide should take you to all these places. And he should be able to put voice in each and every stone. They will lend a voice to every brick. That brick will talk with you. Then when you come back, you would be really proud of your heritage of the country. Precious heritage of the country. Those things should be produced. I have traveled around the world a lot. A history far less powerful
than that we have in our country is celebrated more outside. Yes, yes, yes. -The history of our country is so great.
-It is great. What you’re saying should happen. I hope in the next 10 years at least, such a thing happens. Because I know that Government of India wants tourism to grow. But first steps have to be taken for that. Attempts are made to increase tourism. But the quality input that should be on each site, because heritage tourism is entirely because of archeology, the quality input it should have, it should be a regenerative center. Each monument should be a generative center, you should get goosebumps. It should awaken your Kundalini. Until the Kundalini is not awakened, after seeing all this, Yes, these are bricks. You walk on them. Yes, we have seen Nalanda. So each and every site here is a site of the same type. So, the government should do this. That's what I'm saying, need vision and dynamism. I feel you have many stories, have many perspectives, have a lot information. But people should ask you
the right question -and extract all this knowledge from you.
-Yes exactly. That is why I say, sir, you need to go on podcast. Really need to. Before we move on, we will take a small pause. Because as a podcaster, I want to enter your heart. And then ask questions. So we have one round, 'Ajio presents Keep it Casual.' In that I will ask you questions only about history I will ask you some tangential questions. The questions will be based
on your answer. -So are you ready sir.
-Yes absolutely. Fine, sir, Ajio presents Keep it Casual with K.K. Muhammed sir, we will know a lot
about history and archeology. If you had a time machine, so in which period of Indian history would you go through that time machine? To study or to know about things? I would really like to go
to the period of Harappa Mohenjo-daro. I have also recommended
a time machine in this type of monument. Because even in the monument you should have a time machine. Which is in the museum. So that one can travel through the time. Like the temple in Delhi has a boat ride in it. So if you go on that boat ride, you can go through
different periods of history. So in the same way, a time machine, should be in the museum. Which is this time you will reach in? Like you have reached the Ashoka period. After Ashoka, which is the period? Gupta period, reached Shunga, Kushan. Then you reached the Harsha period. Then you reached Sultanate, then you reached Mughal. So will awaken a curiosity in all things. People will love it. History is not an ordinary subject. It is a very interesting subject, is what people will feel. So that is important. But why Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, sir? Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, earlier we, 100 years ago, before 1927, we didn't know that our history is such an old history. Till then people used to think that our history is beginning from 600 BC. 600 BC means the period of Buddha. People assumed it to be only that much. Before that there was Vedic period but what is Vedic period was not known properly. But it was this one, Harappa had seen the place, But what's the real importance of Harappa, that was not known Later, when Mohenjo-daro was found, so even in Mohenjo-daro both places are a distance of 400 kms In exactly the same way the brick that was found in Harappa, in the same way the brick was found here also. The same way, town panning which was there, was fond here also. The same way, pottery was found. The weight also was the same. So people came to know for the first time that these two are at such a distance but are the same civilizations. Then the seal found from here, the same kind of seal was found in the Mesopotamian culture. And that too, at a depth of 2600 BC. Well their dating was fully done with. So what we were understanding earlier, ours is only up to 600 BC, before that was unknown, but for the first time it came to light that we have a history going till 2600 BC. And that was the Eureka moment of Indian history. The civilization
of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro. Not only that, we had trade relation with Mesopotamian civilization. That also became known. That's why I want that we didn't know
all this 100 years ago. Let us say, 93 years ago, we didn't know. Due to this I want that, if I get a time machine, I will go to Harappa and Mohenjo-daro. Because a lot many things can be found. A lot. We've been unable to decipher yet. We've been unable to decipher
their inscriptions. But are there attempts being made? The attempts are going on. But unless you get
a trilingual inscription… What? Like the meaning
of a trilingual inscription is, one known language, for example, like there was the Egyptian hieroglyphic. It was like, didn't know anything but a trilingual inscription
was found in it, one of them was in Greek, so Greek was the know one. Then you had Coptic language. And then you had hieroglyphic also. So first there was one, then all three came from that. Means, on the side of Devanagari, something is written in English and something is written in Chinese. Yes, yeah.
-You will know Chinese -because you know Devanagari and English.
-Easy, Devanagari. Similarly, even in Mesopotamia, there was cuneiform. Earlier no one who knew cuneiform. But knew old Persian. So found such an inscription that is in old Persian as well as in cuneiform, and then in one more other language. Say, say sir. So till a same trilingual language is not found, it is very difficult. That's why it is necessary to dig. Digging is necessary. The inscription
is probably lying somewhere, but it is necessary to find it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So will the Pakistani Government do this? Yes, no, Pakistani Government also, there are enough sites in our India too. All our sites that we have found in India, so those are fascinating sites. -Next question.
-Yes. What is the difference between
a bad archeologist and good archeologist? A good archaeologist is one, one is who has to have vast reading. And not only about India but also about the world's history there should be comprehensive knowledge. And then he has to have a specialization in Indian history also. Then will be able to place
all things about India in the world context. If that is not done, is only about India, so they will have a limited knowledge. And then that creating India was so big, was this, was that. There was no such big civilization
anywhere in the world. Our civilization is the best. This is a narrative
which we are seeing nowadays. Because all the people in the whole world, ours is one of the 4 or 5 civilizations, there is no doubt in that. But we are the biggest of all. We had Pushpak Vimana, we knew surgery at that time, or we had internet during the Mahabharata period. All this comes when we mostly, only try to read their own history and brag about it, which archeologists do not accept. Yes, you know this point is very important and I would like to talk a little
about this on the Hindi podcast. When I am doing English podcast, I can bring topics on world history. But if I want to talk about world history
on Hindi podcast, I get a little scared because the topics of world history don't work. Because every Indian wants to know more about India and that is a very good thing. You are patriotic, you want to about your own culture, but also learn about the world. -Of course, of course.
-Take the benefit of the internet, -your knowledge will increase.
-Correct, correct. When this round ends, I will also like to ask you
about world history. -Do you think about the pyramids?
-Yes. -Okay, we are going to have fun, anyway. But over patriotism is also very dangerous. Yes. Over patriotism. 100%. It is good to die for the country. Will sacrifice life. Will sacrifice life. But also know about the things that are happening outside the country. This became very passionate. No, no, no. It has to happen. One has to be. One has to be. When you are on-field, when you are going for some dig, which clothes do you wear? I mostly wear a T-shirt. Cap is important. Because you have to bear the sun. Then you have to have a knife also. -Knife?
-Yes, knife. Not to kill people. Hey, bandit! No, no. The things we take out we take out with knife. The mud that is scraped, and sometimes
we will be having surgical knife also. So you absolutely have to do a surgery, every single thing there, For example, in a place called Sinauli, the excavation
done by Dr. Manjul and Manjul the excavation was done very finely. One is their discovery is a very big. The chariot that they have discovered, by Dr. Sanjay Manjul and Arvind Manjul. It is a very big discovery. Very few such big discoveries
have happened in India. But with which craftsmanship they dug all those things out
with a surgical knife That is remarkable. Because at the time of excavation, things can break if you… It can break, it can break. Each thing
has to be extracted very finely. Sanjay Manjul is a very good artist also. That's why he was able to do
such a great thing. So, one has to be an artist also. One has to be a visionary also. One has to be dynamic also. Also needs little courage like in all these situations. Be it the Naxals, be it the dacoits. In a situation, one has to face it. Being a good podcaster is also important these days Yes, if that happens, what can you say? Which we don't have yet. I think you are probably the one doing it. Two-three other people have also done it, not many people have done it. I have a lot of fun. Fine, fine, fine. When I talk to archeologists, you guys have lot of experiences, have stories, have experiences. Would like to ask a strange question. -Have you ever found a skeleton?
-Yes, skeleton. Yes. -You have found one?
-Yes, yes. What do you feel when you get a skeleton? An archaeologist is a scientist. Those who fear a skeleton are the people who don't see
all these things in that way. But we are, you are a scientists and you are looking at it from a material point of view. What will be its age? Whether it is a man or a woman? What would have been their race? In which year it may have died? An absolute scientific approach. So, when an archeologist reaches a field, he is completely a scientist. He doesn't look at it like a historian. He will get scared if he is a historian. He will get scared. Hey what is this, got a skeleton. Hey bro take it out and throw it. An archaeologist is not like that. It is a great discovery for him. Then he approaches the subject very scientifically. What is the importance of skeletons? You will get the complete race
from skeletons. -You will know about the people there.
-Yes, yes. -But they must be Indians, I am assuming.
-No, they must be Indians. Must be Indians.
But often what we used to say, he has migrated from there, he has migrated from Central Asia, has migrated from Europe, so all these things continue to be questioned even today. But to answer, all these things… All these things, now Dr. Shinde sir, took out a skeleton, and done an entire research on this. And has done its DNA test. So from all those things it is known whether they are indigenous, whether they are migrants from other countries, if they are, they belong to which race? All these things will be known to you by DNA test. Did you find out anything strange? There are many things. Like in Rakhigarhi, the excavation
that Prof. Shinde sir has done, and the DNA extracted from it, so in that it turns out that they are indigenous people. It is not that
what we used to say earlier, they came from Central Asia, -they came from Asia.
-Aryan theory. They came from West Asia. The Aryan migration theory, etc. there, All that, on the basis of history-- I mean, scientific studies, we are changing the whole thing. There are still a lot of things that are important to know and we're learning more with time. Absolutely, with time. We are still learning history. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. As science develops, many things that we used to think earlier, will start changing. It is happening. It is happening. But you should have an open mind. It shouldn't be that only my culture is the biggest, and we are the chosen of the people and everything is ours. We knew that, we knew this. This shouldn't be the thinking. If that becomes the thinking, everything is ruined. Keep a very open mind. The way some young players in cricket play very well early in their career and then become arrogant. Become arrogant, right, right. In the same way India is also coming up, we should not play arrogantly. -We should learn.
-Yes, of course. Is there a part of ASI focused on dinosaurs, sir? It is in geology. Dinosaurs, like many years ago some portions of Madhya Pradesh, like the Mandsaur area, in those places, even today, dinosaur eggs are found. Dinosaur eggs? Eggs are found. In caves? In caves and outside, in fields too. Now this is at many places. But they don't disclose the forest. Neither should they disclose. Otherwise, people will tamper it. So that was millions of years ago. But how will they tamper with the eggs? There is a theory by Wegener as Continental Drift theory. In the past all the continents of today, like we call Asia, Europe all of them were one. -Pangaea.
-Pangaea. Then this Pangaea, because of certain movements, it can even be tectonic movement, or the expansion of the plate because of which became distant. Now put the portion of India and Africa and South America together and see, will fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Means, South America, Africa, -and India were connected.
-India, were connected. Australia also. So that's why the fossils
that are found there now will get similar fossils. Means the fossils found in Africa are exactly like the fossils
of Madhya Pradesh. Is there even in Madhya Pradesh and that is in Australia also. So, the Wegener's theory, which is called
the Continental Drift Theory, all these things are in that. So that comes in geology. But we are out of interest, what I said, you have to have a study of all these things. Only then you can focus in archeology. Okay next question. I will say a few words, hearing those words whatever comes in your mind you have to say it immediately. Don't have to think too much on it. -Digging?
-Wheeler. -What?
-Wheeler. Wheeler was a very big archeologist. India's very big-- Just after independence, it was he who had re-established excavations. So his name. And then Alexander Cunningham before him. Digging means, Wheeler and Alexander Cunningham. -Oceans?
-Underwater archeology. Dwarka. You are interested?
-Yes, yes. Got one more topic for after the round. -Mahabharata?
-Arjun. -Education system?
-Nalanda. For the next 10 years, what is going to happen
in Indian archeology? Marketing of heritage and conservation of heritage. That should be taken up. Do you believe that when you are talking
about these things on the internet, even that is marketing? Yes of course. Of course. Yes, it is marketing. But I mean a bit more by marketing. You should be able to make money
out of it. And plough back that amount -for the conservation of the monuments.
-Wow. As I did, Lord Buddha's relic casket has been found, Relic casket means, that it is the most precious thing in Buddhism. A piece of the remains of Lord Buddha, after the cremation, was taken and placed at eight places. Was kept in eight Buddhist stupas. So the same kind of Buddhist-- That is the most precious thing. One of those was found in Piprahwa, that is Kapilavastu, where Lord Buddha was born. So what I did was, there is a similar relic casket, made that, new, modern one. Made a replica. It had an inscription in that, 'Sukiti-Bhatinam Sabhagiṇikanam
Sa-Putadalanamiyam Budhasa'. It is in the Brahmi script. So in the same way, got it written in this. Put soil from four places in it. The ones associated with Buddhism. Either put the soil
of Piprahwa or Lumbini, where Buddha was born. After that put the soil from Bodh Gaya, put the soil from Sarnath, put the soil from Kushinagar. Will cost you ₹500 or ₹400. But you can sell it for ₹10,000. Because you have to put a little grain, in the soil from this place. Have to get an inscription written on it. When Obama came to India, So from here I-- The gift given to him from India, that was this one. By taking one-one thing from India
in this way, your expenditure will be only ₹400-500. You can sell it for ₹5,000-10,000. In the same way you can sell the heritage of India. I mean the way
an archaeologist knows of history, if you put a little creativity in it, put a little capitalism in it, you can earn a lot of money
from historical tourism. Can earn a lot. You can double triple, not even triple, you can make it 10-15 times. And plough back that amount, again for the conservation
of the monument. Because the condition
of many monuments is very bad. You can do all this. There is corruption too? There is a lot of corruption. What kind of corruption takes place? Now if I talk about corruption, some people will get hit too hard. So, I don't want to go into that. But spoke I have given the hints. Because that would be a different case. Otherwise till now, in these 9 years, could have done a lot. -Do you get threats?
-How? Do you get threats? Not in this, but in the Ayodhya issue, I was in a very perilous condition. It's quite obvious because in that whole community a whole group was against me. I was living under the police security for 3 years. That 3-year police security, you will find it strange, which RSS and BJP took advantage of, they did not give police security It was a Communist Government whom I used to criticize. Only those people gave security. These people did not give. When was the strangest feeling
you ever got at an archaeological site? The most strange emotion? That what is going on? The mysterious feeling that I had was in Bateshwar. Bateshwar is a place, that was right inside the forest. All the temples are lying upside down. Everything strewn around. Completely scattered. So there was a kind of eerie feeling, a kind of eerie feeling, mysterious feeling. You are not even in this world or in any other world. So where are you, you are not able to place yourself. Have you ever felt scared? I've never felt scared like this. Because you are totally involved
in this one. -Do you watch Praveen Mohan's videos, sir.
-Whose? Praveen Mohan is a YouTuber. No, no, no. He actually is an engineer. He himself goes and explores
all the ancient temples. He has been on the show. He said that somewhere in Gujarat I think,
there is a temple called Rani Ki Vav, which is an inverted temple which is built underground, upside down. That is actually 'Baoli'. -Yes, I forgot the name.
-It is 'Baoli'. It is 'Baoli'. But there is another place, People have left the entire house, leaving everything behind. Yes, okay, deserted. Yes, have talked about it. Rani's Baoli is beautiful… -Have you been there?
-Yes. Have you been inside? There is water inside. So you can go up to the water. So that is there. What did you feel there? I did not feel anything this way. Because that is very well, I mean, you have all the facilities. I went with the whole group. That's why
you should go to some places alone Should go alone? -Yes.
-Why. Then you have a, this one, a kind of connection with the site. Like it was in Nalanda, in Nalanda during the day, used to walk with people. But in the evening, well in the evening the ticket counter used to close. So, I used to roam in the whole place. Then you have a-- You can bring back the old days, where Hiuen Tsang had come and it was full of 10,000 students. 1,500 teachers and they are having discussions about it. If you need some space
to think all of this, so that is in evening. Evening means I mean once it is sun down you are alone and the whole world absolutely silent. All the sites quiet. Then you have a very good opportunity, Everyone can't get it. Because I was the in-charge of the whole thing. So I got the chance, so it's not necessary everybody gets that chance Maybe because of silence your observational powers increase. Gets increased. Gets increased Like assume, you are listening to music on the earphones. If you see something far away, you take out the earphones and see. It is the same logic. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Okay sir next question. With regards to history, what are the four most important lessons every Indian student should know about Indian history, according to you? One is they should know about prehistory. -Prehistory?
-Prehistory. Means from the caveman time. Prehistory means, like the paintings that they used to make. What was there in the prehistoric era? But why should we know this? That's because,
to understand the whole human evolution, if they look into prehistory, then they will know, what are the steps of evolution. So that is the first lesson. Maybe even learn things
about your own mind. For your own understanding of how the whole human evolution
took place, From different period to period
how it happened. Then the protohistory, that we said, Harappa and Mohenjo-daro. Then the historic period and then the medieval period also. So I am against
removing this medieval period. The trend that is going on these days. Has ended the medieval period. I am against that, I am openly saying I am against it. You can't erase your 800-year history. Emphasize what is good
and what is bad in it, but removing it,
it will not become history. So that was a very wrong step. So I am openly against that one. If there is no Akbar, there is no Maharana Pratap. If there is no Chauhan-- If there is no Muhammad Ghori, then there is no Prithviraj Chauhan. So all this should be complimentary. what happened wrong or right, all these are different things. You can say that. But it should not be removed. -Means Indian history is so deep.
-Is deep. that each phase should be known separately, -basically you are saying this.
-Yes, absolutely. And knowing about each phase -gives you different benefits.
-Get different benefits. It has enriched our civilization. Earlier, they carried out bloodshed, all that is there, but they have enriched in the process. Not that it was done with great planning, I am not saying that. But in the process, they have enriched the Indian civilization. The same way later the Portuguese came, the English came, French came. They also disrupted a lot. But they have given-- They have enriched our civilization. So we should understand that. And history is that. History is that. Means it is important to know
the dark history too. Correct, correct. Okay. All right. If you were made the PM for 3 years, what changes would you bring in India? Maybe from the archeological, historical perspective. I can't think that big. But I will definitely bring changes
in archeology and history. I can't answer for the rest. You will send funds. Not only funds. I mean the whole way of looking at the whole thing. And apart from that to make it interesting like I gave you an example of Nalanda. If you make it, market it, you can make a lot of money from it, then you will not need government funding, you can earn that much yourself. Many countries are doing it. We are not that. Our thinking is not that. That is the biggest problem. You have to think differently. Honestly, I feel my generation is very entrepreneurial. Many businesses are starting. When our generation will come in power, our generation -will sit in the government.
-Will sit, yeah. Maybe then all of this will happen. -Means, that is the raw truth actually.
-Really, really, really. There is an example in that. Like if you go to Rome or go to Greece, for excavation there, you pay this much fees to the outsiders, you can participate
in the excavation there. -Oh wow!
-I am talking about the senior people. You do the same kind of excavation in Rajgir or Nalanda there are great universities, do it under them. Say in it that if you participate
in the excavation for a month, you have to pay so much money, fees later I will also give you a certificate. You have got 15 Buddhist countries. So many people
will come from there itself. And not that stayed here for 4 days and then left India. They will stay here for a month. At the same time so much money will come to you. Along with that, you start Ayurveda next to it. So people will come in that too. So with all these things, you have to have some creative mind. If you have a creative mind then you can easily sell your heritage. Foreigners come that way, for digging here, for excavation? It is not allowed. -No as such it is not allowed.
-But they come. No, it is not allowed. One is, outsiders are restricted. Indians also have restrictions. So it will have
a government-approved course. You come for 15 days. You understand what is archeology, what is excavation. You will get a place to stay. So all the people there will have a good discussion. Will have a discussion in the evening. They will go back as Indian ambassadors. Then they will send
another group from there. I'm saying all these things, you have to have a potential, very this one, visionary minister, and similar government officials, only then change will come. In which ministry does all this come now? Now, it is
the Ministry of Culture and Tourism. Tourism and culture. Next question, sir. In India which is the most exciting unexplored place, according to you, where there hasn't been much digging? You have in Madhya Pradesh, Bihar, UP. These three places are such potential sites, there are still a lot of places like this, that people haven't seen, like there is Bandhavgarh. Inside Bandhavgarh now, there is a young archeologist, Dr. Bajpai, from Jabalpur's
Archaeological Survey of India. They have made a lot of discoveries, it is right inside the forest. Ordinary people can't go there. He had to go-- Dr. Bajpai, had gone with special permission. So he made a lot of discoveries there. There are Hindu temples. There are Buddhist temples. Discoveries of all these things. In the same way, Madhya Pradesh UP, Bihar, all these three places are so rich, sites archeologically, You can do for this one-- For months and months, you can go on exploring the places. But what will you get? There is a lot. You have unknown temples there. Unknown temples? Unknown temples. Unknown Buddhist heritage, Stupas are there. You should bring all these things out. Not only you should bring them out, it is just one stage. You have to market it also. Bring it in ecotourism. If you bring it in ecotourism, then you will have the permission
to go inside. You know, all over the world, I don't want to see archaeologists, but many, have you heard the name of Graham Hancock? Graham, no, no. He is an unofficial archaeologist. He is not trained, he is a journalist. He does work similar to an archaeologist. Like in India, we have our Praveen Mohan. Just like that. Does exploration on his own. So such type of people
from all over the world are interested in Dwarka, underwater archeology. I think there is a whole region
outside Tamil Nadu where you can find
an underwater civilization. Yes, there is a whole ancient city
as Poompuhar. All these things like be it Gujarat coast, be it Dwarka, there is Muziris around Kerala. So this coastal area is very rich, so all that can be done, But the thing is that in all these things there should be exploration, there should be excavation, there should be mapping. Then you bring it in front of the world, and you can do tourism in a very good way. It is not necessary you will get very good discoveries. So may get it or may not get it, it is both. Run it with the Oceanography Department. Like the Department of Oceanography in Goa. In the same way, if you do all these things
by attaching with them. Prof. S.R. Rao sir
had done the same thing. When Prof. S.R. Rao did the excavation exploration of Dwarka, He had done the same thing. In the same way you have to work together with various other sister organizations. It cannot happen in isolation. If someone gave you permission to dig in Pakistan then where will you dig
apart from Mohenjo-daro and Harappa? Many more sites are found there until now. like there is Chanhudaro, that is a very potential site. There is Amri, Kulli, Nal. These are all very good-- There is Kot Diji. Do You talk to Pakistani archaeologists? No, no. Once, in another country, when we went to Japan so, there was a UNESCO meeting So in that,
with an archaeologist from there, met a Pakistani archaeologist. Otherwise, we don't have
any kind of connection with those people. What did you talk with him? What historical sites do they have now from the new exploration,
excavation of Harappa, what techniques are they using. So that was a forum. It was a UNESCO forum. So there used to be discussion in that. All the delegates from various countries used to live together. So there were also from Europe in it, there were from the rest of the world, so once there was a discussion in that. I had the privilege of conducting Pervez Musharraf, who was the president once up on a time. In the era of Vajpayee sir. The president of Pakistan. So I had the privilege of conducting him, showing him Taj Mahal. He and his wife, Sehba Musharraf. I showed them both the Taj Mahal. Okay, wow. This was
Ajio presents Keep it Casual, sir. We will start the podcast again. -So sir will start the conversation again.
-Sure. In all your podcasts have seen, you are always asked
about the Ayodhya issue. Yes, yes, yes. You were a very key figure in the whole story. Please explain the whole story through your perspective. First, give us a small context. We have a lot of college listeners, school listeners who watch the news less. So from one-o-one, at a very basic level, come to the ABC level and explain what was the issue? What was your role? And what was your experience? Tell me sir. In 1976-77, we went to Ayodhya for the excavation. The Director of the Excavation was Prof. B.B. Lal. Who is a well-known excavator, was under him. And we were from the School of Archeology. When we went there and saw, the arrangement made for our stay was right in front
of the controversial mosque. So people are coming whole night, people are coming whole day, So it used to be crowded
with people there. There was a fervor of people coming. Wanted to see Ramlala once. So when we excavate we do exploration before the excavation to contextualize it, what are we going to find
around what we are going to dig? So we tried to go inside the mosque, so there was a policeman he said it's locked, can't open it. So we said that we have nothing to do
with this controversy. We are just the excavators. So he opened, So we went inside and saw. So all the pillars of the mosque on which this mosque stood were the pillars of the temple. So the question comes, how would you say that this is a pillar of a temple, a pillar of a mosque, or a pillar of a church? So we precisely train for that. In that we will also be able to tell approximately how many years old it is. Is it of 1200's or 1300's or 1400's there will definitely be
a slight difference but we will be able to tell approximately what we call stylistic dating So according to that, when we tried to date, the 12th century, we felt it is of 12th century AD not BC. So Prof. B.B. Lal, sir, excavated in the rear side of the Mehrab
in the western side of the mosque, the pillar bases were found. Here the entire pillar was found. The pillar bases were found outside. When excavation
was done in the southern side, it was also found there. All these pillar bases were for erecting the front pillars. You have to have a firm ground
for that one. Then started getting a lot of idols
from there, terracotta idols were found. From below, from the area below the mosque. So we came to the conclusion there was a temple here earlier after breaking it or was in a broken state, reusing that this mosque was built. But it was not an important issue at that time, in 1976-77. But by the time 1998 came, a very big, sorry 1888, by the time 1988 came, it became a very big issue. Bajrang Dal came, VHP came, a lot of. Communists became very dominant, Communist historians. Why did it suddenly happen in 1988? Till then a temple movement started. The VHP started it, there were some non-archeologists in it, that is historians, they came and started giving opinions
about archeology. That was Aligarh University's Irfan Habib and group, some historians of JNU came and said, that Prof. Lal has done excavation there, but they did not find
any material associated with the temple, they already give a statement, to outsmart Prof. Lal, sir. Often, archeologists are not so talkative, they do not go to the press but these were all teachers and professors not of archeology, they were all historians. Out of them only one person knew a little about archeology. In that Prof. Lal, sir then had to defend himself. He said no we have excavated and found many things associated to the temple and we have got temple pillars also. So, no one there to support him. But he mentioned it. But I was at time in Madras. I was working in Madras in Archeological Survey of India, was Deputy Superintending Archeologist. And I gave a statement, that should have not been given at that time too because it was dangerous. I gave this statement, that Prof B.B. Lal, sir during the excavation found a lot temple remains and I was a witness to that one. Because I was the only Muslim who had participated in that excavation and I have seen the whole thing with my own eyes and that was my statement. I have added one more thing to it, I said, this is as important for Muslims-- For Hindus-- This is as important for Hindus as Mecca and Madina are for Muslims. Hence Muslims
should have willingly handed it over for Hindu community to construct a huge Rama temple. That was also my statement. So obviously I am a government servant I should not have given. Number two, it was against the whole Muslim communities, that was very powerful at that time, it was against them. Obviously against me, a lot-- Especially, Communist historian-- Those people started talking against me. But no one had the courage
to give it to the press. Because I was the only Muslim who had participated in that excavation. None of these people had come to the site during that time of excavation. None of the Marxist historian. I think your intent was very clear. It was very clear, was very clear. But the maturity
you have now in your heart, with that maturity if you had taken the decision then, then you might not have said it openly. No, if you are too mature then you will not be able to talk openly. I was not that intelligent. -What was your age then?
-Which? What was your age then? Would have been around 39. But do you regret that decision. No, no, no. That was the right decision. I do not regret. But you had to bear the hardships I had to bear this, had to bear, even bear it now. Had to bear it, but that was a different thing. You bare it even now? I bare it even now, because it is from the Muslim community same way there is an opinion about this. That is very dangerous. Especially, the place from where I come, that is the city of Calicut, that is a Muslim majority area and especially there is a small town known as Koduvally, there are many such Muslim organizations, which are very active. So it is very dangerous. My condition after the coming of this judgment, it was in a very dangerous situation. The situation was so dangerous, that anything could have happened anytime. But I could survive it, not because the support of this BJP and RSS, they did not give any support, yes, did not give support. Did not give any support. So I had to make-- I had to flee from Calicut, Had to go and live
in Bihar for a few days. A few days in Bhopal. Because wherever I used to work, Went and did in Goa for a few days, by going to some other place. Then I had to take asylum. These people did not do anything. I was never a government agent. I openly talk against them even now. I openly talk against BJP. Just spoke in front of you now. Not any government agent. What was the situation, the reality, I only talk about that. Because the Muslims should have let it go, they should have let it go
that time itself, had they it go, the whole Indian atmosphere the relationship between the communities would have been very good. It should have been left, for Muslims it is just a mosque but for Hindus it is not just a mosque-- not a temple. It is the duty
of the entire Hindu religion. So for Muslims, if this mosque was related
to Prophet Muhammad in any way then even I would have said, I am also with you. Or in name of any Auliya, like Salim Chisti
or Nizamuddin Auliya or Ajmer, Even if it was related to them, I would have stood with them. For them it is a simple mosque. The Muslim community is also very small there, I know, because I have lived there for 2 months. So could have easily left it and should have left it. But they were tricked. Many Muslims were also thinking, many people were also discussing to leave. But they were tricked, this Communist historian, Irfan Habib and some people from JNU. That created the whole problem. What were their intentions, Irfan sir's… Irfan Habib, he just wanted to take political advantage out of all these things because he was the chairman of ICHR and all the other things in ICHR, and then he wanted an extension, So he keeps doing such kinds of things. So that was their advantage, the whole history, ICHR should be only under him. That was their this one. Otherwise there are no other things. But to the Muslim community, the Indian community-- the Hindu community, and India as a whole, it caused a lot of damage. Which is very difficult to fill up now due to the extent communities got divided into different parts. I want to know generally all your Muslim relatives or Muslim friends with whom you grew up basically, What is their thought with regards to your opinions? All those people are very against me. Some people are members of PFI which is a band organization PFI which is Popular Front of India, which is banned nowadays. We were together
with their members in the madrasa. He was a year senior to me in school. So there are lot of people like this. So my condition was very dangerous. I come from that, not only from that community, from that area also, But the way in which I should have
given protection by the BJP and RSS, they did not give it at all. Later after many days they said that they are ready to shift me
to Ahmedabad. By then I had come to know
their intention very clearly, that these people
are not going to do anything, then I refused. I said I don't need and refused. But this Marxist Government, This Marxist Government gave me protection for 3 years. You are talking about Congress? No, I’m talking about BJP and RSS. Marxist Government? The Marxist party, which I opposed a lot, those people, because in Kerala,
there was Marxist Party. The ruling party was Marxist. Those people gave me police protection. For 3 years. I used to rarely go out. Protection is of those people only, not of these people. In 1988 you gave this statement. -Yeah.
-Am I right? Yeah. No, not in 1988. In 1990, 15th of December. This statement came in the Indian Express. From 1990 to 2023, tell me about 2 stories. From 1976-77. I am asking you from 1990. Okay, from here. fine, fine, fine. Tell me 2 stories. First story, how did the Ayodhya issue pan out. Especially the school children, college students, who are watching this podcast. They are born after 2005. They just don't know what had happened, with regards to the Ayodhya issue. So first story, explain what happened then? Because a big rift came between
the Hindu and Muslim communities. Tell the second story from your own perspective that how your life has changed? My life, then I couldn't get out Because it was dangerous to go out. And I was living in Calicut only. Because I came from my township, Calicut is a bigger town, there things are a bit more bigger. So I came and stayed in Calicut. But even from there I used to go out of the house very rarely. And there was police also. The police used to come with me
whenever I went. By that time, COVID arrived. COVID was a huge blow to the world, but in a way that was safer for me. Because then people couldn't get out. The whole narration then changed, For almost 2 years, the whole world went dead. That's why I survived, otherwise, I wouldn't be here
to tell you this story today. Has there been a murder attempt on you? Not a murder attempt but everything could have happened there. I survived because the police was with me. By that time, COVID also came. That's why things changed. Explain the whole Ayodhya issue, what happened after 1990? After 1990 the excavation happened again. Because there was this discussion
going on in it, because some historians were saying, there was nothing found
associated with the Ayodhya temple. This was the opinion
of communist historians. Archeologists were saying that no, they found a lot of remnants, found things associated with the temple, and that too was below the mosque. This was the argument of archeologists. What was the basis of the historians? They didn't have any basis. They said that They said while quoting Prof. Lal sir, Lal sir he has done the excavation there. He didn't find any temple remnants. Then Lal, sir-- Lal, sir used to not give
much statement, etc. He had to give a press statement. No, we have found it. Have found a lot of remnants. He gave a press statement. Supporting him
I gave this in Indian Express. I had participated in that. What Lal, sir is saying, is right. The others have not even seen there. Have not seen the excavation. They shouldn't have given such an opinion. I have understood through the show, archeologists are always evidence based, sometimes historians are narrative based. Some historians also came on the show, who were narrative based. It's a part of their job. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Until archeologists don't get evidence, they will not speak. This is an important part
of your training. Is an important part. Scientist and archeologist will always talk through evidence. Will talk through evidence. They only do interpretation. it is not necessary for them to have
evidence to make an interpretation. So this was going on. So some people said okay, one group says it is there, another group says it is not there so, why can’t we do a second excavation? So that second excavation later-- When the Allahabad High Court gave the decision, then that second excavation happened. So that was under Dr. B.R. Mani. He is an eminent archeologist, and eminent historian. Currently is also the Director General
of the National Museum. And he very precisely and concisely excavates. To stop this-- These people tried a lot
to stop that excavation, Irfan Habib and group tried a lot. Those people even approached me, to stop it anyhow. I said no one can stop it, Because it is a direction from the honorable High Court. Why were they trying to convince you? No, not to convince, but to intervene to stop this excavation
from happening again. They came to know, that excavation-- Even I earlier with their people, Syed Shahabuddin was a big speaker on this in those days, I had told him, sir, don't get the excavation done again, you gift this land, if you get the excavation done again, then many more things will come out. I was posted in Patna at that time. He had called me, so I went and talked with him. But he was not ready to accept. He had come under the influence
of Irfan Habib. When re-excavation was done, we earlier had found 12 pillars, basses of more than 50 pillars
were found underneath. More than 50 pillars. That too in 17 rows. Altogether found in 17 rows. Then after that many terracotta idols were found from there. And then an inscription, The inscription that was found, at the time when the mosque
was demolished. And that is a 20-line inscription. Where it has been clearly written, this temple is dedicated to 'Dark Lord Vishnu'. Who has killed a 10-headed person. Who is that 10-headed person? Ravan. And who had killed Bali. Who is that? Ram, Shri Ram. So found all these inscriptions. Then the Pranala was found. What is Pranala, to drain the anointment water
from the sanctum sanctorum of the temple. And that will be always towards
the northern side. So that is called Magar Pranala, because it has a crocodile head. Crocodile means that represents, this one, river Ganga. So that is called Magar Pranala was found. Now tell me can you find
a Magar Pranala from any mosque. No you can't find. Simple, it is a very simple thing. So, many similar evidences were found. It was on the basis of that, the Honorable Supreme Court had come to the decision that there was a huge temple before the mosque and the Supreme Court has given a very good judgment also I was not expecting such a good judgment
from the Supreme Court. How has your life changed? -Since then?
-In my life, whenever I get such a chance you have to be one thing, you have to be true and your intentions should be very pure. We work for the country and our intention is only the country. Not this party or that party. This is not about us. That is why whenever we had opposition, faced problems I used to always think this, this storm is to lift you up. For me it had no problem. In the Muslim community, what is the sentiment
about this issue, now? In Muslims, many people think this, that a problem has been solved and they are very happy. For Muslims, a problem has been solved, now it should not be raised again. The Marxist group tried a lot to raise it, but it failed. So it is the same with these people that this should not be raised again. This is what the Muslim community thinks. Because many extreme right Hindus believe that all Muslims
are very upset about this issue but that is not true. No, it’s not true. It is not true. Because I know, because nowadays
converse freely with Muslims. They also understand, whatever happened, happened for good. Look at them,
they have been given a 5-acre of land a very big mosque and a very big institution
is now coming up. It is not very far from this place. So that is a good opportunity for them. Should have developed that. Whoever sees that place, will be so impressed those people will also say that this is good. Otherwise, if Muslims would have got
a part of the Janmabhoomi, they could never offer Namaz there, I know what is the condition there. So this is a good thing. Very good. -Now one more hot topic.
-Yes. Dwarka, underwater archeology. What is happening, actually, practically in 2023, is ASI investigating? The investigation professor
on this was S.R. Rao. He was an imminent archeologist, in the Archeological Survey of India. He went to NIO, National Oceanographic and started a branch
of maritime archeology. Then he had conducted certain excavations, at this one, Dwarka. In that he, earlier what we used to say in history, about Krishna's Dwarka, some of its portions are identified. He has also got certain anchors from there which were used in that era. They have almost dated it to 1400 BC. That is almost the Mahabharata period. If you ask the dating
of Mahabharata period to any archeologist with all the correction,
it would be 1400-1500 BC. Almost the same period is also of Dwarka. What research has been done
on Mahabharata? Excavation done
for the Mahabharata period, that was done by Prof. B.B. Lal sir. That is the excavation of Hastinapur. In that excavation, in the Vayu Purana, there is a mention of a flood. Then when he did the excavation, The flood lined that were there, he found those lines. It was said in the Vayu Purana, a huge flood took place, that is after this period when these people won Mahabharata. The Pandavas won, the Kauravas lost, after that who should be the king, everyone said we don't want kingship but it is your duty also, that you are a Kshatriya. It is your duty to rule the country, so in the end everyone said, the youngest man among us will become. Who was the youngest? That was Parikshit, who is Parikshit? -Abhimanyu's...
-Son of Abhimanyu. In reference to this, it is said in the Vayu Purana, when Parikshit's eighth generation was ruling Hastinapur, a very big flood took place. Everything was ruined and destroyed. After that people migrated
from here to Kaushambi. -Where?
-Kaushambi, Kaushambi. Present day Allahabad. Okay, okay. To that reference, they did the excavation here, then they got a pottery of that period, which we call PGW, we call it painted grayware, It would be in a little grayware,
in gray color, it also has some paintings. So it is called PGW. This pottery from the bottom most portion, which are all associated places, like Hastinapur, like Kurukshetra, after that from five places, Indraprastha, Tilpat, Baghpat, Sonipat, all these places which are associated with Mahabharata from all those places, from the bottom most area, this pottery was found, that is why it is called,
Mahabharata Pottery. So on the same basis, they established this is the period of 1400-1500 BC. That is the contribution of Prof. B.B. Lal. Means, according to evidence. It is according, purely according to evidence. Scientifically speaking
the archeological community believes that around 1400 BC the Mahabharata war must have taken place. The Mahabharata period took place. Okay, took place? Yes took place. Digging has taken place in Kurukshetra? Excavation has also taken place
in Kurukshetra. Even in Kurukshetra. The same way cultural sequence found there is exactly similar. But were weapons found there? Weapons, not many weapons found. Besides Hastinapur had excavated at Ahichchhatra and had done at Mathura, Mathura which is for Krishna, did a lot. So the cultural sequence
that is being found in all these places it is the same kind of sequence. Due to this, due to the evidence, he said. Cultural sequence means the kind of pots that used to be, the kind of architecture used to be, in 1400-1500, mostly in such places. Architecture is not found much
in this period. We call it wattle and daub. -What?
-Wattle and daub. Mostly in wattle and daub, homes are made from bamboos, and set clay on both the sides. So, that is called wattle and daub. The way the big cities were described, cities matching that description were found very few. That's why I love podcasts like this. Because history is also so mysterious. History is mysterious. That you can know more about history
only by conversation. Asked many people
about Mahabharata on the show. Everyone gives a different answer. Many people say that the phase of Mahabharata
is around 3000 BC. I don't know. But when I talk with archeologist, -a mention of painted gravy is made.
-Yes, yes, yes. It is actually found in Vayu Purana. The reference of Vayu Purana, was rightly taken out by Prof. Lal, sir. It is mentioned in that, 'tasmin nagare nagasvahe yukta nijatchu nagaram kaushambayam sanivadsayade' So, I mean, when Nijatchu was ruling Nijatchu was eighth
from the generation of Parikshit. So when he was ruling, 'tasmin nagare nagasvahe, yukta nijatchu'. So because of that Nijatchu, he abandoned the city. Completely leaving it, 'nagaram kaushambayam sanivadsayade' He went to Kaushambi. Prof. Lal could excavate the same kind of pottery in continuation of it, there at Kaushambi also. We talked about flood, Pralaya means, basically some sort of flooding. Yes some sort of flooding. Pralaya and flooding keep happening -in the history of the world.
-Keep happening, chain of... Usually because of meteor strikes? It is mostly because
of the climatic changes, it happens. Means the people
who are talking about global warming definitely pollution has a big role in global warming but the natural global warming and global cooling phases, keep happening. There are four seasons, like Varun, Gunz, Mindel, four big climatic things have happened. Means you are talking
on a very macro timescale. -Yes, yes, yes.
-If you say four seasons, will assume in a 1-year period. But you are, 1,000 years. Thousands of years. About thousands of years. I talking all this in geological time. Sometimes we are talking
in archeological time, sometimes it becomes geological time. Do you have interest in geological timelines? Yes, not much, -but we have to read it necessarily.
-Why? For you to understand this fully, you want to understand the whole world. Because about seasonal changes and the climatic changes, how the human evolution happened, like I said in… To understand all this, and how one got extinct, how the other, the Wegener's theory we discussed. So you have to study, your overall understanding
has to be very good. Then do your micro study. You know like in Mahabharat, I think the story is that Gandhari had cursed Lord Krishna that your entire dynasty will eventually get erased, -Dwarka will go under water.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then scientifically speaking, because of global warming. This is global warming. -Flooding took place there.
-Yes, yes, yes. But Dwarka, which is underwater now, has it been explored? Lal, sir, did, sorry-- Prof. S.R. Rao had done. My question is, today's government, Modi Government basically, Dwarka and the area outside of Tamil Nadu. It is called Poompuhar. Why isn't ASI funded more
for exploration in these two places. Or is it not ASI's domain. No, ASI, who used to work earlier, S.R. Rao sir. He was in Archeological Survey of India. But the excavation
that he had carried out, that was NIO, is an organization in Goa, had done on their behalf. But why isn’t research happening now? It should happen, but as a whole, they aren’t giving any importance
to archeology. The BJP Government
is absolutely showing no interest. This is your criticism of the government. Yes, my this one. But can change be brought in? Change can be brought in. You have to have certain fertile minds. Will ask a very practical question. How much money will be needed? -For what?
-To explore Dwarka properly. For exploration, excavation, you don't need that much money. Even if you give 5 crore every year, it is nothing. So you need to create a team, and assign people for all these things. So you'll at least know whether it's there or not. Means it can even happen
through Internet crowd funding. Ye, it can happen even through funding. But for all those things, Government permission is needed. Dear Smriti Irani. Dear Mukesh Ambani. Correct, correct. Actually, you need to have a government backing for all these things. So that is very important. I don't think getting government backing would be that difficult for this mission. But I might be wrong. At least could have given
to the Archeological Survey of India. But are people trying, in ASI, do people request? ASI has government officials. What the government says they will move according to that. It is the government leadership, who should come forward? Is the bureaucracy at fault here? The bureaucracy is not at fault. The politicians are at fault. Because they are the true decision makers. They are the real decision makers. For them all these things, as I said, gave the example of Jagmohan ji. Yes, yes, yes. He galvanized the entire organization. Need such political leadership. Which is lacking now. All we can do is create podcasts. Yes, podcast yes. A wave gets created. Yes, a wave will get created. You can at least trigger people. When you trigger, the result will start coming
from somewhere or the other. There is one last question
for you, K.K. sir. Can I call you K.K. sir? Yes, yes you can. You are very senior. Many people used to call me as K.K. as K.K. sir. So I like it. K.K. sir one last question. You said, you also study world history. Specifically, is there any aspect
of world history, knowing of which has made you feel excited and which every Indian should also know. Yes I mean the discovery that took place in the 15th century, one discovery is that, Vasco Da Gama coming to India, for India. Then Columbus
is going to discover America. At that same time there are many people going to discover different parts. Why did we not go? -Means why didn't people of India go?
-People are coming searching for India from all over the world. During that phase,
who was mostly ruling India. In India, it was Mughals. In the 14th century, there were Sayyids and Lodis. After that, when Vasco Da Gama came in India, that was in 1498, there were Sayyids and Lodis here. May I tell you a theory? This is just a theory. If you meet some American, an average American. They don't travel the world, they only stay America. Because there is everything
in America today. We were the America of that time. Maybe this could be a theory, everything was there in India then, -so the need to go never arose.
-Everything was not there, We had... A few things, we had cardamom, we had some other spices, besides that, of course, we were exporting certain things -all those things were there.
-Means money… But the whole world, they are going to different-- They were not only coming to India. They were going to Indonesia also. They were going to Malaysia also. They were going to China also. That is, you're talking about Europe. I am talking about Europe. We should have also gone. This kind of we had everything, due to which people visited to see. That is a simple this one. Our past should have been enterprising. We didn't have that dynamism. But in other countries, they had it. Due to that dynamism, they colonized first, After that, the Industrial Revolution
came in 1748… That then changed the entire world. We should have been that enterprise. But the problem that we had was, We used to not travel by sea, except the Chola, besides the kings of Southern India, traveling by sea
was religiously restricted. Crossing the Hindu Kush
was religiously restricted. That's why we didn't go to the other parts
of the world and colonize. So that was a great drawback. And then the cast system also. The caste system too pushed us back a lot. Divide and rule. Divide and rule, divide and rule got applied on society. No one else did this, we did it ourselves. Important points. These days people don't often talk
about such points. Don't discuss. Because everyone says India was a Golden Goose, But no one says how the Golden Goose died. Correct, correct. There must be some reason. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. That is, we were definitely invaded, but even before these invasions we had been invaded many times. Had been, had been. Could have fought back then. Yes, would have fought back. But something happened. We didn't go out. We didn't go out of Hindu Kush. Maybe arrogance
at a very human level, arrogance. Arrogance too, even the cast system, only Rajputs could fight, the rest used to not fight, that was another… But this was not with other countries. There every person picked up a sword. So these, and then these hurdles, You can't cross the sea. You can't cross the Hindu Kush. All these were different reasons, I mean. There may be many reasons, but out of them these are some. We don't openly discuss our mistakes. We don't highlight our drawbacks. You are very entrepreneurial, sir. Means your thinking
is very much like a businessman, I get to know that. I don't know, but it is there, we had some plus points. We were very broad minded, and there are some minus points too. You have to accept both of them. 100%. 100%, sir. I hope that in today's world, at least youth, know a lot
because of this kind of information. That's why we did today's podcast -in Hindi and not in English.
-Fine, fine, fine. So that many people get to know. -Yes, yes, yes.
-I hope… It increases reachability. I have seen the same if it is in Hindi then many people watch and involve. I believe that if you actually want to create an impact in the country. Hindi, Hindi is the best. -Speak in Hindi.
-Yes, yes. -K.K. sir.
-Well, thank you. Thank you. This was today's podcast. Before you go, from the Ajio team and TRS team, there is a gift for you. -Oh wow, what a thing.
-It's a bit heavy gift, careful. Don't give me a heavy gift. If it's heavy gift,
then you have to send it. No, no, you just put your hand on it. -Oh, thank you, Thank you.
-This is for you. No, please, sir, have a sit. -Thank you.
-Thank you. You have also done a lot for the country. So there are material gifts in this gift, -but it is also filled with our love.
-Very good, very good. -Thank you.
-So lots of respect and love for you, sir. Thank you so much, thank you. K.K. sir,
how was today's experience? Very good, was very good.
Enjoyed it. -Okay, I am glad.
-Enjoyed it, yeah absolutely. I am glad, whatever experiences you have, whatever learnings you have, the Internet should know
in the next 5-10 years. Even after talking for 2 hours, -I feel like I only scratched the surface.
-Correct. -I only got out 5% from you.
-Right, right, right. So I am looking forward to, asking you the remaining 95% and I am looking forward to seeing, what new things you'll learn
in the next 5-10 years. Because I get a very student mentality
from you. So I am very excited
to meet you again sir. Oh wow, all right. Thank you again sir. Very nice, felt good, felt good. Just enjoyed a lot. -This is a good medium for us also.
-Yes. Because our old folks
couldn't do all this. So, we are also on the fading side but still there are some things that you have taken out, that is great. We are also equally thankful to you. Honored, honored sir. Hope to see you again sir. -Surely, surely, sure, sure.
-Thank you, K.K. sir. Thank you. So friends this was today's episode. First tell us which other guest
you want to see in this genre? History, archeology, these are such subjects where only through conversation can know more, can learn more. So please keep sending us
guest recommendations. This was today's super-hit episode. Share as much as possible on WhatsApp. This outfit is Styled by, Ajio. So download the Ajio app and start shopping instantly. Ajio presents TRS will return very soon. We will also keep learning and will teach you too. And through the many podcasts will accelerate the growth of our human mind friends. Boom Shaka Laka. See you soon. 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶
