[ Music ] >> Welcome to the 2020
National Book Festival, and our conversation with
two distinguished guests, who join us in honor of
the centennial celebrations of American author and space
age visionary Ray Bradbury, a master storyteller whose
legacy exemplifies the festival's theme of
American ingenuity. I'm Jon Eller, director of the
Center for Ray Bradbury studies at Indian University's
School of Liberal Arts. Ray Bradbury's friendship
and encouragement led to the creation of this center, where we preserve his
entire home office, a lifetime of his awards and
mementos, and the papers, correspondence, and working
library that remained in his home at the time
of his passing in 2012. His remarkable career
spans seven decades. He grew up in the
Great Depression. His family, his father had to
take the family all the way from Illinois to Las
Angeles to find work, and Ray Bradbury was never
able to go to college. He developed a great style, his own unique lyric,
metaphor rich style. And his own kind of subjects. Writing fantasy, weird tales,
eventually developing talent as a science fiction writer
with his own subjects. Talking often about
otherness, about how lonely and alien the challenge
to go into outer space. Also wrote quite a bit about
the need to have empathy in our lives with others. And that comes through very
much in much of his writing. His subjects transition finally
into even without college, a lifetime of awards,
including Pulitzer Prize and National Book
Foundation medals for lifetime achievements. The titles, we all know them
even after 60, 70 years. "The Martian Chronicles,"
"The Illustrated Man," "The Golden Apples of the
Sun," "Fahrenheit 451," "The October Country,"
"Dandelion Wine," and of course "Something Wicked
This Way Comes." All written and collected
into these books as novelized story cycles
or as story collections between 1950 and 1962. And yet he continued to
produce throughout his career. His significance, as much
as any writer of our time, he's responsible for the space
age visions that we all have, the dreams at he had
become our dreams. Science fiction that spoke
to young people who would go on to create our space
age achievements. We are fortunate
to have two guests who truly understand
Ray Bradbury's dreams. Author and producer Ann
Druyan has already traveled through the cosmos, often
in creative partnership with her late husband, the
visionary astrophysicist and astronomer Carl Sagan. She was creative director on NASA's interstellar
message project for Voyager's golden
records, now Voyager 1 and 2 have truly passed out
of the solar system boundaries and are in interstellar space. Very exciting legacy. The co-writer she was on the pioneering 1980
television mini-series with Carl Sagan, "Cosmos,
a Personal Voyage," which won Emmy and
Peabody awards. She co-authored six bestsellers
with Carl, including Comet and Shadows of Forgotten
Ancestors. After his passing, by 2014,
she was able to co-write and co-produce "Cosmos, a
Spacetime Odyssey" series for us all, which won Emmy
and Peabody awards again. And just as this year in 2020,
she and others have produced "Cosmos, Possible Worlds." And in May, her book with
the same title came out and that book is a rich tapestry from which the new
series was born. Like Ray Bradbury,
Leland Melvin knew how to work effectively
towards distant goals in a life full of
the unexpected. Academic all-American
recognition in college football led to
the National Football League. He fought off injuries with two
NFL teams while also beginning graduate studies in material
science and engineering. In 1989, which that
masters degree in hand, Leland began work in NASA
Langley Research Center in his home state of Virginia. He entered astronaut
training in '98, and pushed through a challenging
long-term training injury before he was finally cleared
to join the crew of space shuttle
missions STS 122 in 2008 and STS 129 the following
year in 2009. Both of these missions
added vital new structures to the International
Space Station. In 2010, Leland began NASA's
associate administrator for education. He retired in 2014 after
24 years of NASA service. And today he motivates and
provides resources for children to fulfill their dreams through
media and educational ventures. Leland, I'm going to start
the conversation off with you. In the pages of your
book, "Chasing Space," you tell readers
that art, music, and literature have a place
in the STEM world of Science, Technology, Engineering,
and Mathematics. How does fiction by writers like Ray Bradbury fire a
scientist's mind and curiosity? How did that fiction fire your
mind as you were growing up and entering the space program? >> Well, you know,
I mean Ray wrote with such a lyrical
beauty, a poetic beauty that made you think of
all kinds of things. I mean "The Martian
Chronicles," you know, you think of these places
on the Martian surface and these other beings,
these Martians, you know, that we encounter
when we got there. And I think, you know, any time
that you can add the A to STEM to make it STEAM, the arts,
everything that we do in science and technology and mathematics and engineering has
the arts infused in it. And when I was in space, I remember Quincy
Jones, he called me. We had a little conversation. And Quincy Jones, you know, this
incredible composer, musician, and he said that if you
know math, you know music, if you know music,
you know math. They're both using both the left
and right side of the brain. And I think what Ray
has done in his body of work has inspired us,
incited this creativity, this innovation that
will help us. And his fantasy. He talks about "The Martian
Chronicles" were fantasy. But when you think about taking
something from science fiction to science fact, this
ingenuity and creativity and the written word and
the poetry and this-- it's inspiring you to
like do things bigger than your present self. And I think that's why
that A is so important in getting people thinking
about future worlds and what is the rocket equation that we have to use
to get there? And what are we going to
see when we get there? But all of this thing
is driven with fantasy and writing and that A piece. That's why I think it's so important what Ray's
done with his writings. >> Well I think you caught
the link he actually intended for the generations of readers. Even though he couldn't go to
college, he could certainly fire and calibrate many of
us generations to do so. And Ann, you and your
husband Carl Sagan of course knew Ray
for many years. Tell us about those times, and
Ray's relation to the dreams that you and Carl
articulated for all of us. >> Well, first of
all, thank you Jon for that lovely introduction. And yes, that's true. I believe that Carl
first met Ray in 1971 for the symposium called
"Mars and the Mind of Man." And that was I believe Arthur
Clarke and Bruce Murray of the Planetary
Society, yet to be formed. Got together to, exactly, to
traverse all of those borders. There we were on the eve of getting our first real
close-up look at Mars. And beginning to-- to have,
instead of a point of light in the sky, a world
that was a real place. And so it was-- Ray made
a tremendous contribution to that conversation. And then I met him later on
in the context of Voyager when there was a symposium
in that tradition called "Jupiter and the Mind of Man." This man business I don't
really get, but those were-- you know, that was the
kind of time it was. I'm glad we left that behind. And that's my first recollection
of actually spending some time and conversation with Ray. And what I recall is a
luminous personality. A luminous presence. Open, friendly. That wonderful, beautiful
silver hair. And you know, I think-- when I
think of Carl and Ray together in conversation, I think that
they're very similar figures. In that they were the kind of
people who didn't want that wall between art and science. Between wonder and skepticism. They wanted all of that
in the same beating heart. And my recollections of the
times that I met Ray was that he is unfailing warmth. And also, you know, in
his work, there's a music to his use of language. I think of him as a
descendant, creative descendant of Emily Dickinson
and Walt Whitman. I sing the body electric. Clearly he was influenced
by those American writers. Who wanted to set
language loose. And to use poetry in prose. Not to, you know, not to make it
flowery, but instead to surprise and disarm the reader so that
these great new worlds would be open before them. >> Wow. >> That's great. Yeah. We can almost see you
all three together like that. You know, Carl once
pointed out some of the finer points
in Ray's poetry. I don't know if you remember
this, but we had the poem "We Had Not Yet Seen the Stars." They have not yet
seen the stars, the animals of our planet don't
look at the stars the way we do. And Carl pointed out to him
once well, the birds do. And Ray actually wrote-- >> I'm so glad you [inaudible]. >> And Ray wrote another stanza. Oh yeah, some say,
the birds they see-- and you know, he went on with
the poem that way, but-- . No. [Inaudible]. Yeah. [Inaudible]. >> Yeah, I think also that
there's a general awakening in science to how much more
attuned to the world, the stars, and each other, the
other living things with which we share
this planet really are. But yeah, that's-- I
think there's a lot of creatures are actually
even admiring the stars. I think there are
non-human primates who can be inspired by a sunset. >> Definitely, definitely. >> You know, about 70 years
ago, in an introduction, Ray Bradbury said that
scientists know the workings of the human heart, but writers
can imagine it far better. We can discuss for a
few minutes if you like, the idea of connections
between imagination and science. Leland, you want
to lead on that? >> Sure, you know, when I
think of us leaving the planet and flying in space and
looking back at our blue marble, you know, Ann, you talk
about the blue dot, you know, from voyager seeing this little
tiny blue dot back from all of these millions of miles away. And having this view of
our planet and thinking of all the people that
have been involved in helping just this
very small subset of people get off the
planet, live and work together in this space station,
this spaceship, you know, and we're looking back
at our spaceship Earth. And I think about the
colors of the ocean. I think about needing
new definitions to describe the colors
of the ocean. Because I extinguish all
of the colors that I know when I see all these
different hues. And that tapestry of
color and shape and form, it's making you need to be an
artist or a poet to describe it. And that's why writers going to
space are so needed to ensure that we can capture what we see. And we get this perspective
shift. We get this, we call it
the orbital perspective. We look back at the planet,
and you see no, you know, political borders, they're
just geographical borders and we're all in
this planet working and living together as one. One civilization. And I think that, you know,
if we had more people working and living in space together,
knowing that if I screw up, if Yuri screws up,
if Hans screws up, that we're all gone,
that we're all dead. And so we need to bring
that mentality, that mindset down here on our planet Earth
with all the colors and the hues and the cultures and the tastes
and you know, this tapestry of life to ensure that we all
get it and we stop the wars and the fighting and
think about exploration as a family of humans. Maybe meeting other, you know,
other beings one day as a group of people looking to explore
and to accept other cultures and other races and other,
you know, other beings. You know, like in "The
Martian Chronicles." I think that's what living
a purpose driven life is all about. >> It's definitely
a shared vision with Ray Bradbury,
that's for sure. Ann, did you want to pick
up on anything there? >> Yes, I mean, what
you mentioned Jon, he's interested in empathy. And the many different ways in
which he expressed and conveyed to the reader how
critical that is. Not only you know, to
our personal happiness, but it is an adaptive
advantage that we need to dig deeply into,
especially right now. And so I couldn't, I was so
moved by what you said, Leland. Because I envy your experience, I've imagined it
countless times. And you know, for Ray, it
wasn't-- it was the poetry, it was the romance,
he was so romantic. Not in a kind of
destructive, juvenile way. But in a very mature
sense of the great romance of life and the cosmos. He had that completely. But he was also someone who
understood the preciousness of freedom of expression. And of course, "Fahrenheit
451" is really the Bible of that concept. Of how you have to be willing
to protect the right to speak and to write in such a way. Because it's sacred. That there's a sacred
nature to books. You know, in Cosmos,
the original series, we had a sequence in the
New York Public Library that we filmed at Midnight. And the idea was that books
are perhaps the greatest magic that humans have ever created. Because they make possible
a person dead 2500 years to be able to speak
inside your own head and you be touched
by their experience. And I remember writing that
with Carl and Steve Soter, very late at the New
York Public Library. And I know that each of us was-- had been touched by Ray Bradbury's
vision in his writings. And it was-- I consider that
another great bequest of his. >> That's a wonderful
observation. Ties in with everything we've
been talking about here. You know, Ray had
that sense of trying to safeguard freedom
of the imagination. And he's doing that brilliantly
in a time, in a climate of fear. People like Ray and Edward
[inaudible] were among the few who would stand up for
that kind of thing. And for him, the idea
of empathy, you know, how to live in someone
else's skin was important. He stood up against intolerance. Or against anyone who said that
intolerance does not exist. And you know, the
sentiment that you bring, I've seen similar sentiment
in Leland, in your book as well, "Chasing Space." >> Yeah. I mean, you know,
growing up in a southern town in the 60s, you know,
actually I was born when the Civil Rights
Act was passed, but even after that
Act was passed, there was still some
un-Civil Rights that were happening
where I lived. And I saw the way people
were treated and I saw that people were intolerant
and did not share their-- you know, the empathy
that Ray has talked about. And he has put through his
writing to ensure that we all, you know, respect others. I mean, whether it's
humans or other beings. And I think that it's so
important that as we, you know, go forward, you know, I was
talking earlier to Jonathon about this-- we're in this
COVID, you know, moment now. During COVID. But what does after
COVID look like? How do we go past the Civil
Rights or civil violations that are happening now in
our country to a future where everyone feels like
they're part of the same team? And they're working together. So I think that empathy,
Ann, which you've mentioned, is just so important as
we educate our young kids. And I think of, you know, we
just lost an icon, John Lewis, who said that we need
to make young kids see that there was a mission,
and in that mission, that there is the possible
from the impossible. And that's I think what a lot of
Ray's writings, they illustrate. The things that you're
capable of doing with fantasy and with science fiction
to making it science fact. So that we can, you know,
meet people on Mars one day or we can get to another galaxy
and develop you know warp drive and tractor beams and all
these things that have grown out of science fiction. I mean our cell phones
that we use now, they are-- they're like little
communicators from Star Trek. And we'll eventually
get to that point. But you'll have that creative
empathy and that vision for a future that involves
everyone, all cultures, races, creeds, and everyone is
part of the same team. >> It reminds me of
something in "Chasing Space," when you quoted the legendary
astronaut John Young. And you know, you know
full well his legacy, but one of only three
astronauts to go to the moon twice, landing once. And I guess, I believe also
the first shuttle mission commander later. You said that he
once said to you "Once we stop exploring,
we will fail." >> You know, John, again,
was such a visionary. But he wanted to make
sure that everyone knows that we have to keep exploring. And I was at my interview
to become an astronaut. And he took me to the side and
he was talking about, you know, when a plume of smoke or
sediment comes from China, it builds up in China, it
eventually makes it to the US. And so we're all connected
in the things that we do and if we don't explore as a
civilization, we will falter. We will perish, we will die. And I know in Cosmos and
I know in all the work that you've done, this movement
about looking past where we are to find signs of other life. And knowing that there
is life out there. I mean the Drake
equation, right? I know you've worked
with FD Drake on that. But it's just incredible how
many people now don't believe that exploration's important,
that science is important, that we get too myopic
in thinking about the problems right
now versus future solutions to the problems that
we have right now through exploration and science. >> Yeah, I think it's so true. It's a kind of-- it's a
metric of our despair. That we have, we all know that as a civilization,
we have lost our way. And our survival, the survival of our civilization depends
upon exactly those values that I really think that
Ray Bradbury embodied. That openness to the future, not afraid of the future,
as so many of us are. That openness to science,
that respect for science. And the tremendously epic dreams that only science
can make possible. Can't get, you know, you can't
get to Mars without science. And you can't lie
your way to Mars. Because if you know better than
any of us, Leland, you know, each think about all the steps in every single mission
of exploration. If anybody is fudging
and lying along the way-- >> Exactly. >> -- It will likely go awry. So to me, these missions are
like the great cathedrals that our ancestors built. You know, knowing that if
you put the cornerstone in, you would not see that spire
poke through the clouds, because it's a multigenerational
enterprise. A community of minds,
stretching back into antiquity and forward to the stars. And to me, I think the notion
of preserving the pale blue dot, of changing our ways and some of
the very dramatic steps we have to take to ensure our
descendents a planet at least as lovely as the
one we inherited. All of these things
are themes that I find in Ray Bradbury's work. You know, that says that it
counts on freedom of expression. It depends upon you know, a
kind of, when I think of Ray and his face appears in my mind from those moments we spent
together, I'm thinking of that smile, that open smile
that is welcoming all questions. That never gets inpatient with
the child or adult that comes up to him to ask a question. The was Carl, too. That sense of, as
Carl used to say about his science communication,
he'd say when you're in love, you want to tell the world. And I think of Ray and Carl and
some very special other people of that time, who were in love. They were in love
with the future. They were in love with the
spectrum of possibilities. But they were mindful of the
hard work we all have to do to make that future possible. >> And that's so powerful that
when you can show that love for something, that it brings
people on board because it's so authentic and so real. And people want to
be involved in it when you can show
your love for it. I think that's, that's
a testament to Carl and Ray and you. And I just really appreciate
those beautiful poetic words about love for something
that can take us to a better future,
so thank you. >> And may I just
post-script that and say that John Lewis had
that same quality. I met him at Comic-Con, of
all places, which is sort of, you know, [inaudible]
we're talking about. And we talked at length. And I had this-- he
had that same glowing, vibrant sense of goodness. Of, you know, there was no,
nothing in him had been poisoned by bitterness or
bad experiences. And I guess I think all of us,
every single person on Earth has to marshal that potential
within us. To look at the world
anew every day. And try to find new
ways to inspire. >> Right. >> All of us to do better. >> A childlike enthusiasm
that constantly goes as long as we continue to grow, we still
have that childlike enthusiasm and wonder of a future better. >> Yeah. And we call
it childlike because by the time most of us
are adults, it's been beaten out of us through child rearing,
through bad experiences. But it's really human,
it's [inaudible] like. It's just that some of us have
been lucky enough to be loved so deeply and childhood and
thereafter that we can take it with us wherever we go. >> Right. Fantastic. >> You all have both really
described Ray Bradbury, the essential Ray Bradbury. And In the process, in the
last five to ten minutes, you all have really
gotten into the, you know, the theme of the entire
festival, American ingenuity. It sounds like you're saying
imagination is the first step towards ingenuity and
eventually action. >> I think that's true. I think it's imagination and
when imagination is informed by nature, by our knowledge of
nature, which is called science, I really believe that it has
a virtually infinite future. >> My dad drove a bread
truck into our driveway, and it said "Merita Bread
and Rolls" on the side of it. And I thought we were going
into the bread business. But he said "This is our
escape pod from Lynchburg. This is our recreational
vehicle, it's our camper." And it wasn't until we rebuilt
the camper and made campers and bunk beds and
everything, but it wasn't until he painted the van, where
he took away "Merita Bread and Rolls" to where I saw
his vision, his ingenuity of turning a bread truck into
our rocket ship from Lynchburg, Virginia to explore the smoky
muteness and Myrtle Beach, South Carolina and
all these places. And we sometimes have to
repurpose that labeling to have the right words. >> Brilliant. >> So that we can see the future of exploration right
here on planet Earth. >> Wow you took that
bread truck right into orbit, that's so wonderful. How lucky. How lucky to have such
a brilliant father. I had that kind of father, too. And that love and
inspiration is with me always. >> Right, right. No, that's beautiful. >> You all have really
been a gift to us in our discussion
of Ray Bradbury. Are there any other things that
have come up today, you know, in your minds while
you've been talking that you wanted to bring up? >> Ann? >> Just to say-- yeah! Just to say that I'm
so glad and honored to be part of this conversation. And to honor Ray Bradbury. And his imagination
and his goodness. And his openness. And may people be reading his
books for centuries to come. >> Likewise, Ann. I am so grateful for this
time with both of you. I'm first meeting you now, but I feel like I've
known you forever. Because we are-- you know,
we're connected through Ray and through Carl about making
our universe a better place through empathy, through love, and their hard work
with science. And believing that, you know,
if we don't continue to explore, as John Young said,
we will falter. So thank you both. And Godspeed. >> Thank you so much, Leland. What a joy to be
talking with you. And Jon, thank you so much for
conducting the conversation. And for leading us to
such lovely places. >> Ann Druyan and Leland
Melvin, thanks so much for bringing your insights
and hope for the future to Ray Bradbury's
centennial conversation at the National Book Festival. [ Music ]
