The Nature of Sin: What Makes Something Sin?

project so I would like to invite our panel to come up and join me we have dr. Walter Strickland we have dr. meet mica Edmondson dr. Jonathan Walton and then also dr. Marcia reeks it's mica so I'm really excited to have the opportunity to moderate this conversation about the nature of sin and so Before we jump in if you all could share a little bit about yourself where you're from your academic history and then also where you are currently serving I guess I'll start on the left my name is Walter Strickland I currently serve as a assistant professor of systematic and contextual theology at southeastern simony Seminary Wake Forest North Carolina also associate vice president for diversity there PFC at University of Aberdeen before that twice grad M did thn from southeastern and then before that I was suitable University in Ohio my name is Micah Edmondson I'm a native of Nashville Tennessee and currently living in Grand Rapids Michigan I am a well I did my my masters work at Vanderbilt Divinity School got my doctorate from in systematics from Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids and now I do I'm a local church pastor I passed her new City fellowship in Grand Rapids Michigan and I'll do also do some adjunct work here and there at Calvin Calvin seminary my name is Jonathan L Walton and I am the Dean of the Divinity School at Wake Forest University and let me just say I'm a native resident of Atlanta and let me just say how much of a blessing it is to be here Hindu and thank you to the Jude 3 project for connecting me with former teachers and former students and former students who are now teachers and so it's a really a blessing to be here thank you I'm Marcia Riggs and I did my m.div at Yale my PhD at Vanderbilt and I am currently the Jr's can love professor of Christian ethics at Columbia seminary and I'm going into my 28th year there well thank you all for being here and so we'll just jump right in the first question I want to ask is this is there such a thing as sin and if so how would you define it and what is its origin not all at once do believe they sent the questions they did send the questions before that's actually that's a heavy one that's actually I would say that's probably the the biggest one in many ways so yeah so so is there a such thing as sin absolutely absolutely sin is I would say kind of historically defined in some traditions at least it's been defined as any transgression of or one of conformity to the law of God so sin being really a violation of the will of God being out of step with the will of God and and and sort of sort of looking to scripture there is a kind of witness about the origin of sin being in the disobedience of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and that disobedience leading to the sinfulness of humanity and that being sort of contrasted with the righteousness of the second Adam is Christ and his righteousness his obedience being sort of imputed or given to those who join him by faith so so yeah so that's that's why that's kind of how I would give a brief description of the origin of sin and what sin is and kind of how these things sort of in some ways connected Jesus yeah and just to continue on with that I also affirm that there is a thing called sin and as I was preparing for our time together I was trying to figure out how it articulate this because it's something that every that people talk about that's in the scripture we see this word show up a lot but how do we actually define it in a very productive way so I was thinking about it in the sense that it's it's creations deviations from God's design creations deviation from God's design the reason when I start out with creation is because there's Emma's bearing and non-image bearing or we can say human and non-human creation people can deviate from God's design from God's wisdom that he's interwove it in all of creation which is that in proverbs 3:15 or 3 1920 but also creation too as a result of sin can groan as well we see things like tsunamis and we see things like earthquakes which I was just in California when we got hit by three of them back to back to back and so yeah I define it that way to say creations deviation from God's design because there's this harmony there's this Shalom that was interwove it into creation that was fractured with the rebellious act of sin in Genesis 3 which is where I would also root where the origin of sin is in concert with Paul in Revelation chapter 5 verses 14 through 19 mission and so I do see that and then coupled it with the the redemptive nature of of the gospel is the fact that is far as the curse of sin is found which happens in a variety of spheres you know this the I guess as I'm just thinking about this the reason why I think we have a truncated understanding of sin it's good to have a truncated understanding of creation and so if we don't understand God as having created all things all things being fractured by sin in the biblical narrative is Genesis 3 then we don't see exactly how how vast Redemption actually is how we ourselves participate in that through Christ but then how we are the workers of that redemption in God's world as well as a part of our sanctification process and so that's kind of how it would at least begin the discussion thank you the writer and Lamont once said that we know when we've made God in our own image because God hates and dislikes all the things that we hate and dislike and I kind of walk with that when I'm thinking about the concept of sin at least as a kind of reminder as it relates to epistemic humility in terms of how sin is actually categorized I do believe in a concept of sin and I think that in this regard as an ethicist I probably follow Paul Tillich the most in terms of this definition of sin as estrangement estrangement or a eh alienation but it's really about estrangement alienation from one another and so it's it's humanity's propensity to dehumanize and to use our will to power toward our own selfish ends in disrespecting one another and thus alienating ourselves from God and disrespecting God because when we fail to see the divine light or in gods of God's creation in one another then that's how we disrespect God well the estrangement alienation part I definitely go with and it is I would probably now kind of frame it as a strange meant from the divine intent for all of creation and that divine intent being more of the Shalom you're talking about the harmony the peace the justice all of that is part of it and once we have become estranged from the divine intent we then begin to participate in sins plural we start creating sins and so I I think it for me also I would say has to go with a particular understanding of our relationship to God as part of the creation that God created a creation that God said it's good and God created a creation with which God is in relationship actually but we tend to think about God is apart from that creation so sin is when we break the relationship with God and then go out and impose that same breaking of relationship on one another and with the earth thank you thank you would you be willing to speak a little bit to were you since the origin of sin comes from well the origin is I can even I can say the origin is in the garden but it's it's not because it's just I wouldn't name it disobedience I name it breaking relationship you know because God creates this whole creation human beings a part of it and you know the choice and that's I guess that's the other part I didn't clearly say it's the willful choosing to break that relationship so when Eve and Adam both decide to eat that Apple and it's not her taking him down the road choosing to break relationship for whatever reason either it's because you want to know more than you do or you want more power or you know you just can't see yourself as staying in a relationship of equality with each other and a relationship in which God has created you to go out into this world and care for it so it seems as though like there would be a consistent consensus amongst a group that's in and of itself is some sort of deviation or disorder as it relates to God's original design is that fair I don't know if I would go there in terms of God's original design me personally because again that's why I started off how I started in terms of just trying to strike a chord of humility because I'm just design would be what I would say is that every culture throughout history time immemorial has had their own purity politics where we Dean what is pure and what's impure and if we're keep track of purity politics to keep track of purity politics is to keep track of social power and when we keep track of social power then we know that there are always some who are more empowered to name and designate sin and quote-unquote deviation from God than others and it's because of that that I'm somewhat hesitant to ascribe it to the original design of God because I want to keep always keep track of the most vulnerable and the most vulnerable are often the ones who are catching hell from our conceptions of God's will and what we've deemed a sin so I so so I agree with what you're saying about the abuse of purity politics absolutely absolutely but I do think that we need to so for instance when we name when we name abuse as sin okay and we say you know it's not God's will or design for this one person to abuse this other person I think that's something that we want to keep hold of right I think we want to be I think we want to say I think I think the the intuition perhaps that is being expressed is the intuition against the abuse of that kind of power holding right that kind of thing that says look I'm going to name all the things that I don't like even things that I ought not to name and I'm gonna keep power that way but I think we want to say you know it does it does the victims of abuse and injustice a disservice if we don't call that injustice sin and then deviation from God's will because the the victims of injustice want to know that God names my oppression as sin that God names injustice for what it is and God is against that and we have to say that very clearly all right we can't we can't be all well you know who who's to say well you know you know the victims of injustice need God to say you know they need they need God they need to know that God is for us and God is against the injustice that's oppressing us they need to know that you know and as far as the epistemic humility I mean as a black man in America knowing what our sort of politics have been historically very very sensitive to that dynamic so really I guess from for myself I am trying to locate that design in a in a source where it's it's I mean granite I don't see everything plainly because I'm not God Himself I'm not God but at the same time I think we have a witness to God in the scriptures and I think if we humble ourselves before it try our best in a community of people who have a variety of set of experiences to try to locate what God's design is in that as opposed to locating it and something that's in US or outside of it I think that's a that's a it's more of a humbling ourselves before the text where I think we find God's design as opposed to us you know standing over the text trying to isolate our desires into it so the sort of marches to our own desires and so that that's kind of where I really appreciate the epistemic humility that you're that you're encouraging us towards and because I'm very very sensitive today I truly am therefore I'm trying to humble myself then therefore to the source the place where I think we can't actually see and since the design of God which i think is an exegetical task in scripture I think if I'm hearing at least the the struggle is with the semantics here the word design you know verses in my case I wanted to say God's intent which for me is different from design design has a kind of rigidity to it that I don't think about God in that way I do thank God intent for creation had intent and hasn't that for creation but when I think of God and God self God is seeking relationship with us I mean I think about James Weldon Johnson sworn the creation when you know God says I'm lonely I think I'll make me a world I mean that's kind of who God is and when we decide to break relationship you know then that's when we begin to see ourselves being sinful thank you thank you for answering my question that's helpful just to move the conversation along would you say that the Bible presents one consistent view of sin or would you say there's a variation there and then whatever your stance is would you be willing to share some passages of scripture to support that I think that the Bible so the vibe the Bible gives a multifaceted view of sin I think that I was you know I talked about it as anyone of conformity to a transgression of the law of God but there's many I mean estrangement you know brokenness impurity there are many images that we get I think throughout scripture that help blindness you know there are many things that the Bible kind of gives us these images that kind of began to understand what has gone wrong here what what what is this reality that we daily confront that that helps us to know that things are not the way they're supposed to be okay and so so there's many I saw again you know i'm i think so again i think about the bible gives is a multi-faceted view of what sin is and and that's actually a good thing because i think it leans into you us getting more comprehensive sense of all the different ways in which sin encroaches into our lives and also gives us a good sense of of God's intention to come and make right what has been made wrong through sin all right so so yeah but yeah I mean again you know again you know going back going back to the garden itself right I think estrangement is very clear to us that's one of the very first things I think you see going on in the garden is estrangement right they've sinned against the Lord God they hear the sound of him coming through the cool of the morning and they they're how they're hiding themselves from the Lord the communion has been broken where they had enjoyed this kind of perfect fellowship with God suddenly there's this communion that's been broken and the Lord God calls out to Adam where are you okay and that kind of calling out to him saying where are you you know of course the Lord God knows where Adam is but it's a it's it is reveals to us that there is something that has gone wrong in this relationship that there is now this estrangement that there's now this alienation and the the rest of Scripture is really the story of how God has overcome this alienation that that happened right there at the beginning so that's how I would kind of begin the answer it I do like the multi-faceted miss you're talking about I think we might get into this more but just those layers in the ways in which sin manifests itself we can we can say that it's individual we see that in Romans 7 you know Paul sort of debating back and forth you know with himself about he does what he wants to do it doesn't want do to what he wants to you know I stuff that just can't really keep track of cuz it's all over the place that we all sense at times in our own spiritual lives as a and then also you have individuals in community which that's another manifestation where it's almost an intensified manifestation of the individual the reality is there which we there's a question I will dive into that more later but and then also the systemic reality but then also the creational like reality that comes whether it's the be faster than this and seanix explained that explore that a little bit this in case anybody was wondering what that might be and hopefully I didn't put words in your mouth but our spheres into your into your mind but as far as that that pattern of sin and then that estrangement and then I'm also gonna add the the redemption piece and we see that pattern even in Genesis with the sin you know the the consequences and then the redemption that promised to send the one who was going to crush the head of the serpent then the the gesture of clothing the nakedness of Adam and Eve that sort of gestures towards the sacrificial system and then I mean we even see that in Psalm 51 there is this the sin there's the estrangement and then there's the you know David is saying that it is God whom is going to be the one who rescues Me from this I mean if you take the Book of Amos as another microcosm there was a sin of the people and then there's God's judgment but then at the end of every book in the book of the twelve there's always as this this idea of redemption that comes in at the end so I I think at least if we're looking at sort of larger pericope or a larger swaths like Genesis 3 the Book of Amos you know Psalm 51 and even and you know I keep for some reason I keep mentioning books chapters in Revelation but even revelation 5 again there's that sin the consequence of that which is the definitely relational dynamic that you're talking about as well and then also the but that promise of Resurrection or the promise of redemption rather that's there I guess the part that I'm still somewhat struggling with in terms of I want to differentiate sort of myself with is sin is not something that's outside of us but it's something that we create by our intent and our actions and that's why I went back to the garden and said it's when they choose to eat this Apple that they've been advised not to eat from this tree that's when and becomes a reality so I'm I'm more inclined to look at scriptures where I see humans once again being complicit in breaking relationship and therefore participating therefore in sinful ways I mean I would even take the story of Anna nice insofar as one of these where we have the complicity a woman and a man too as the text would say somewhere to lie against the Holy Spirit by saying oh yeah we sold that land for that much when they knew they didn't but it was important what happens there is a consequence they die okay and the community hopefully learned something about what it means to be the community again you know and and then I find myself going to second Corinthians and chapter five where we get the gift of the Ministry of reconciliation so here we are again we're called upon as human beings to either participate in the relational gift that God keeps giving us an opportunity to actually take part in the work of healing and redemption and community building etc and not participate in sin or be sinful by continuing to break relationships by doing things that oppress by abuse by silencing there are all kinds of ways that we do sinful things but it's not outside of us it's our choosing to do it that makes it so critical I would I'd like that I like that a lot fresher eggs I would actually go I would actually go with you on that and as it relates to our choosing but then I would also add to that right that we often find ourselves making choices under conditions not of our own shoes sure right which which we in certain power relations then are able to identify your sin and so we have to be mindful of that it was the great educator Benjamin Elijah Mays from right here in Atlanta who originally said we're all inextricably linked to by a common fabric of humanity and garment of destiny what affects one of us directly affects all of us indirectly and what he's getting at here is really and how I read it that there's no such thing as individual sin in itself because every individual act has consequences and contributes to structures that impact the lives of others and so therefore I'm with you on this kind of estrangement and alienate alienation right and if I take Tillich one step farther he would say this is how structures of evil are produced of which we are all complicit and to me that is the overarching narrative of the biblical text the overarching narrative of the biblical text is this unjust treatment through individual behaviors or larger structures of the least the left out the left behind I see that from the Exodus motif I see that throughout the Hebrew prophets I see that in the Gospels Matthew 25 has you've done it to the least of these you have done it to me and that is where I see that this sort of consistent spread of where we have to keep track of how our own behaviors right render us all culpable in the dehumanization of us as one theologian put it so privileges makes cop make Liars out of all people and that's something that we have to we have to wrestle it at all times thank you so we're kind of swarming around this question of is in personal or is it systemic or would you say it's both and then if you say both then tell me which one comes first the systemic or the person sorry that wasn't there that's me but I'm just I've been thinking like what comes first the chicken or the egg yeah well they both exist together and it's I think it's hard I mean when you say when you say which one comes first or you you don't mean I'm assuming you're not meeting a timeline or something I think you mean maybe which one is more fundamental something like that I wish that's priority yeah I think speaking about you mean if you it seems as though you would say that both are true but it seems like you're saying that it's individuals maybe who create the structure or are you saying that it's the structure that creates the individuals who then make those decisions no I would say largely what I was saying is that I wouldn't even buy into the binary to ask the question in the first place because I think that they are so bound up together yeah that did try to distinguish one from the other or to try to privilege one from the other is actually creates a dynamic where one is able to somehow excuse oneself yeah from from the structures of sin of which we're all a part of I actually I agree with that I think that's that's exactly where I think that's exactly right yeah so when you mentioned you mentioned earlier you know well there's no such thing as individual sin and then you went on to articulate what you meant I realize what you were saying is that there's no such thing as isolated seeing that that that sin always exists within a context and in both of them and those dynamics are always at play whether it finds itself working out through the instrumentality of a single person but that person is always bound up in a community is always bound up within the within the the broader stream of humanity so so absolutely absolutely it is helpful though I think it is helpful for us to be able to point out individual and systemic dynamics about seeing if we're going to seek to try to address sin though you know so if we're talking as a pastor if I'm talking to someone about a sinful dynamic in their life it is it is it is helpful to be able to point out the aspects in the situation in which they have agency to be able to say you know here's some things that you you guys where you've got some agency some god-given agency actually and and here's some other things that that over which you might not have as much agency okay so I think it's important to be able to to distinguish those things I don't think we want I think we want to say those things always exist together and they are very much bound up together but I don't I don't know if I would say well you know it's impossible to to really point out the the personal dynamics of seeing apart from or distinct from the broader communal aspects of it you know so yeah I think I'll give an example so so for instance you know so Psalm 94 talks about it's talking about you know wicked rulers and it's and it's saying you know that that really you know God does not allow God self with wicked rulers who frame injustice by statute okay and so these these wicked rulers are individuals in power who framed who who basically find a way to have their individual wickedness put on full display and amplified over a system right and so it isn't to be able to distinguish between hey look here's a here's a wicked ruler and they and that ruler is wicked okay and and as a ruler they have a particular responsibility to do better okay and also here's a system over which they have had some influence and and and we're going to have to find a way also to address the system as well without without having the wicked ruler say well you know that was just a system not me you know so we have to be able to to point both those things out of thing you know so I guess I guess where I would go on that I would say because I'm not disagreeing with you I was probably to bring greater clarity to my point so thank you for that it would be pointing out the behaviors of the wicked ruler so that that wicked ruler could see the implications of her his behaviors on the larger community not just being a product of the community but actually the implications on the community so say for example let's just take something let's take something that we might call you you talked about in a pastoral context right right you know so let's say something that we might say say somebody comes and has a conversation about I'm addicted to porn you know this is the Avenue there's an addiction here to porn okay so we there's a way that one might talk about the implications of this for say his family you know for his children for his own kind of productivity and responsibility there's a way to talk about it in that regard but there's they're still we're here in the city of Atlanta Hartsfield International Airport right a kind of Center for sex trafficking mhm and how do we think about one might say oh well this is just personal sin this is my individual sin right but no actually yes you are a product of a culture of a rape culture that seems to celebrate the hyper sexualization of girls we know that that's baked into this kind of nation's identity but also in contributing to and being a consumer of porn you're actually also fueling a sex trafficking industry that's right that VIN is putting young girls in a very vulnerable position right and so therefore that's that's what I would mean by you know so I think we're on the same we are definitely on the same thing I mean that's that's crucial because otherwise people can't repent in that way what they would say is if you look at it merely as a as a sort of personal sin issue only then a person repents toward their family they repent toward their wife and they think that's it but what repentance actually means what repair and restoration actually means is that you now commit yourself to be against the very system that actually Framed you in this way right and so yeah so absolutely so so you're exactly right I mean it's its key and not only just sort of designating something in an abstract but actually equipping people to live out a life of repentance and I think the the the problem here is how we've really individualized in as I mean as we're I think we all agree on and we just think oh if I just repent to my god because this relationship between me and in God and that's it that's all that matters and I think that's what has fueled the necessity to talk about this lesson a binary sense but more as a ridding the evils my he was I've committed yes but then also the evils that have propelled me to that particularly evil and so and it's not only the the job of the person who's been swept up in the pornography to fight the practices the culture the the ways in which we commune together that have perpetuated that but it's also the community around that person who's holding them to righteousness I believe to then surround that person to hold them up as an individual but then also to help take down the structures and the ideas and the and you know all the the dynamics that help propel that person into that particular predicament anyway so it's so this is this multifaceted dynamic that we always have to keep our eyes on but I think I think if I'm if I'm gonna guess something but you I think you're fighting against perhaps it might be I think the misunderstanding that my sin is just between me and God yes yes that's exactly what I'm that's exactly what I'm pushing against yeah and that's exactly what I'm questioning against right because because these it's it's this again for me it's just fundamental at Matthew 25 right as you have done it to the least of these and so it's keeping track of the least of these that's where my theological commitment lies and I think if we're talking about systems if we look at the least of these they're most vulnerable to the misuse of systems and so if there's a society that's going to sort of sort of take stock of where it is it has to look at the most vulnerable the young girl the the impoverished the elderly the the children and so I think that's where you begin to take stock of those things what what what did the systems of this society produce and I think that's where you find the the most honest repercussions of that is the least of these well I think one of the ways that I try to help as an emphasis is to get people to think about you know how it is we live out the ethical life and in this case you know if we could think of ourselves living on a kind of continuum from complicity to accountability to responsibility then we might think about there not being that binary between personal and systemic or social sin because complicity makes us all start at the point of knowing that we are embedded in systems of injustice and it's gonna be a matter of choosing whether or not we stay at the point of complicity or move toward accountability and move toward responsibility it's that point of accountability and responsibility professor Riggs thank you I told y'all this sister was my teacher it's it's that point of accountability and responsibility that I guess that I take so seriously and it's and it's what I often hear the language of repentance obscuring just that because so many of us have come up in cultures right where repentance is given to us in this framework about how things will be cast into the sea of forgetfulness we will be you know how we'll be washed and will be created anew and will become new creatures right and in doing so so many people have hid behind that and had not been had not had to take responsibility for their perpetuation of injustice and unjust structures of which they benefit from on a daily basis and so it's that sort of I I remember I think it was but it was James Baldwin in the fire next time he's he has this incredible line where he says I made a deal with Jesus at the foot of the cross one day that Jesus would hide my sins from me but he didn't keep his end of the bargain I guess he was a better man that I took him for Paul when it's saying in that moment is that a good friend is someone who would disclose his sins in front of them and hold them accountable for it and say Russell with it fight with it struggle with it because it's only through that kind of struggle can we actually overcome it so we have a lot of questions coming in but I want to direct this question to you dr. AIDS because it was directed towards you one of the questions was in your view is it that all sin is interpersonal and then I want to throw this in there with it if your view is there such a thing as a victimless sin and so if so so if you think the interview is in you know all sin is interpersonal then is there ever a time when someone can sin and it not affect anyone in their relationship with God I'll start with the first thing I really wasn't saying Olsen is interpersonal but all sin is relational and that's a little different because we have a relationship with others and as I said with God with others with the earth and with ourselves so it is relational in a sense when we break relationship whether that be with God with others with the earth or with ourselves okay so not interpersonal but relational and what was the second the second question was is there such thing as victim with scene though I figure that's where your do you all have anything you would like to add to that before I post the next question yeah I think she did a great job and so one of the things about systematic theology right is that you just pull out one doctrine and you're gonna have a conversation about that in isolation to all the other doctrines and so I really appreciated this question because it's pulling in some some other doctrines to see how the nature of sin relates to that and so this question is this is how does our understanding of sin impact how we see atonement and salvation for creation those things are deeply interconnected I don't think you can understand the atonement of Christ apart from understanding sin what is he doing on the cross what is this in fact what is the Incarnation about right what does the Incarnation about one of the wonderful things about so you know we've kind of I think we have been sort of hitting at here and there about sort of the embodiment of sin that sin is not sort of this thing that exists out in the ether somewhere you know I know I will say this I do even principalities and powers right spiritual wickedness in high places I do believe in that okay but when sin shows up on the scene it shows up in broken bodies it shows up in it shows up in you know bullet-riddled bodies it shows up in in all kinds of ways it shows up in the abuse of people the neglect of people and and so that actually helps us to understand why it was that God took to himself a body okay and that the way God chose to reveal his his his his healing of our sin was in the and an embarrassing was in a body okay and and and and not just not just bearing personal injuries against himself but actually being put in the context of empire bearing upon himself the the shame of injustice and an oppression and abuse and and depression and anxiety and any other thing that we can name and doing it in a very tangible way right I love it that the atonement is not merely some kind of a abstract exchange but that it it is and whenever we come to the Lord's table if we reminded that we're reminded of the physicality we reminded of the embodiment we're reminded that God has chosen to deal with an embodied problem in an embodied way you know so I think that's one aspect of seeing that we have to keep track of that always shows up in embodied ways and that helps us to understand better the atonement that it had to be an embodied reality I I grew up in a I grew up in a church culture that uh always talked particularly for the young preachers that whenever you're failing whenever you don't have anywhere to go what you're supposed to do take it to the cross right whenever you fail and take it to the cross and also that every sermon should end at the cross I've wondered over the years whether we've actually skewed the theological structure of healing in so many of our churches because we've spent so much time talking about atonement as it relates to Jesus's death and resurrection and we've largely obscured Jesus's life and the atoning work of what it meant for him for God to reveal godself and the person of a Palestinian Jew born in the wrong parts of society on the wrong side of the tracks to an unwed teenage mother that's and it's something about that view of atonement that I you know again I get the the Ransom theory the Christ is Victor but I've always had a kind of an affinity toward the moral the moral exemple our theory of atonement that it's in Jesus's deed sits in his living out us in the example that he set because as dr. Edmondson put so eloquently we're talking about somebody who was born in Empire and we're talking about someone who took this phrase and community rather who took this phrase the savior of the world so dear savior of the world that was used by Caesar to announce military victories the embodiment of power for a community to take that and apply that term to this Palestinian Jewish brother who talked that the least shall be first and it's not those who sit at the head of the table but then those who weren't even invited to the banquet in the first place mm-hmm for us to apply that savior of the world to him has given us a new way of thinking about our life together a new way for us to think about how we might be able to overcome our alienation toward one another and so it's that kind of concept of atonement that I think is consistent with my understanding of sin well you gotta have Christoph's Victor though because we want to know that the cross ain't the end there was a resurrection on the third day and that that resurrection and and by the way not just in not just in spirit in body right so we so what we can say is that we will overcome not just not just in some abstract kind of way but that we will overcome in a tangible way that justice will be realized in a tangible way that bodies will be healed in a tangible way that freedom will be experienced in a tangible way okay so so so absolutely so you know the the you know moral exemplar Christ is our great prophet that reveals the way that we ought to go that's really important absolutely but we also want to we also want to say you know but but but he did make an open display of the powers and principalities at the cross the Empire thought they had done away with the Christ they thought they had crushed him they thought they had gotten rid of this dis dis noisome Palestinian Jew that there was a peasant and and yet he threw that cross and resurrection actually overcame and he overcame for those who were the least of these so that they could have hope in a tangible future and is that and is that tangible future that actually I think guides us in terms of the way in which we should aspire and hope and and walk I mean you know one of the great themes of the civil rights movement of King himself its theology is the Beloved Community right the Beloved Community and the Beloved Community is certainly root in christos exemplar but also then also Christmas Victor you know you know otherwise we can't know for certain that this is going to happen we can't know that we're gonna overcome you know and that was the hope of the of those who who marched against injustice not that we might overcome but we shall overcome but but that's still possible I mean that's still possible it's still possible even for somebody like King who actually didn't believe in the bodily resurrection and it's also possible to still believe in tangible healing tangible deliverance tangible manifestations of God's will I believe that that's possible one of the reasons I believe that's possible is because of people like past Edmondson who are actually doing that heavy lifting in communities informed by the example of Jesus on it on a daily basis and so it's people in your communities that I do believe are receiving that kind of tangible manifestation of the atoning work of God in the healing hands of brothers and sisters like who are assembled here today right and so I don't think that it has to be either crisis I would say Christ as prophet priest and King you know all of those all of that work is important to hold on to I wouldn't make a dichotomy between Christ Christos exemplar and Christos day I wouldn't say you know it's Christ the example it's not Christ the high priest it's not Christ the Prophet as Christ as it you know I wouldn't I wouldn't make a I wouldn't create a false dichotomy what I'm trying to say is that you want to I think embrace them all all of that all of those dynamics of the atonement are are absolutely key in essential as far as this drama of redemption and how we embody this drama that is embodied perfectly in Christ I think that the the bodily resurrection that that victory over sin actually validates all the things that he was doing when he was that moral exemplar at his life and so as I'm thinking about there's the question and what's been going on in the conversation I really do affirm the the reality of this the moral exemplar but I think that that than even gestures into something even far greater for someone who actually did conquer oppression who actually did conquer death and which are all the negative implications of sin and what have you so I think in that I mean I strive daily with I would imagine everybody on this panel and our moderator included to live lives of justice to give people who are groping around for some vestige of hope in a world that's marred by brokenness some sort of inkling towards something greater and I think that the the the punctuation mark on the fact that that greater is out there that we actually will overcome is the resurrection which is that you know it's the I mean I'm a huge fan of Justice Roberts and sort of him routing his ethic and an eschatological reality I think we can't do it without eschatology right and so that sort of eschatological reality or there is in Christ and uh sort of anchoring our you know our hopes in the future in that in order to motivate us in the now to do moral good as opposed to just wishing this away as though we're just gonna you know wishing us away in order to get to the eschaton that's not what I'm talking about that eschatological reality of there is in Christ motivates us to do the good to do justice to live you know humbly and what have you Micah 6:8 so and I think I think those two are sort of inextricably linked but oftentimes I do think we can reduce this idea of the atonement there is in Christ to one thing or the other and that becomes a little bit problematic which I don't think yeah well I think the biggest struggle for someone who stands sort of in a a womanís or liberationists perspective in particular around our theories of atonement is redemptive suffering becomes the key category and then it gets translated into who will do the redemptive suffering you know on earth and so I think the attempt to show our thinking around atonement to how atonement happens through the Ministry of Jesus that the life of Jesus is an attempt not to deny the cross but to put that cross into perspective and and that perspective is critical mm-hmm and it's not something we do all the time right and so I think we have to continue to think about how are we going to reframe our doctrines of atonement mm-hmm so that we don't make them become rationale for making certain people victims who will do the redemptive suffering for us absolutely can I can I speak to that I really appreciate you bringing it out because there is a long history of using of abusing the witness of the cross in such a way that victims become acquiescent to their own oppression and I think we want to do everything we can to fight against that right I want to say I thought but but I do want to hold on to the witness of the cross okay and I want to say that you know so redemptive suffering I think there is a very old tradition within the black church community of looking to the cross as example for how to engage our suffering that God stands in solidarity with us as so so that God that God chose to identify with the victim that God chose to engage to to to to put himself in the place of the sufferer and that God is giving to us a way to engage the suffering that we see in our world to the glory of God not to say that that suffering is a good and I think that's where we go wrong because a lot of people will say well you know this this must mean that suffering in itself is somehow a good but what we want to say is that it is good to engage the suffering to the glory of God and the way we do that is is by faith and by exposing the injustice that actually causes that suffering right that I think that's a faithful engagement with suffering and in it I think that's what we see Jesus doing at the cross actually engaging the suffering in such a way that he's actually exposing and ultimately going to put an end to that injustice and oppression right so I think so so yeah so I so I agree with that I agree with you saying hey look you know we're doing something is a it's a it's a complex issue here it can be very very problematic if understood the wrong way but I want to say I think we can't hold on to it and I think in some ways we must hold on to it because we want to affirm the agency of the victim we want to say that God has not left you without recourse we want to say that your ultimate identity is not defined by your oppressor or your oppression that you are still a child of God that you are still made in God's image and that by the grace of God there is a way to engage this for your own liberation and for the glory of God I think that's what we I think we want to say that and and Jesus has given us the example of that and Jesus had empowers us to do that and Jesus stands with us as we do that I think that's what we want to say I don't know if you want to push back on that or I think it would take too long so I'm not sure going to add to the the long I'm not sure if it'll help or make it worse doctor riggs so but I'm gonna start talking okay so so and I think what you're trying to get it is something that's good because it's almost like somebody designates redemptive suffering to happen to another for someone to suffer redemptive ly I think what we see and I think what micah is getting it as well is that as a follower of Christ I choose to with my agency to take suffering on in order to help somebody else who is suffering so you know we were talking about the systemic social implications of sin with Bonhoeffer I would say I would want to throw myself in the spoke of the wheel on behalf of those who are suffering because they're getting trampled over and so while of course we grieve sin in all of its the ways in which it manifests and I think I agree with you dr. Riggs that we shouldn't designate somebody as being the redemptive sufferers but as a Christian I if I'm gonna follow the example of Christ I will put myself in a vulnerable position to help those who are also vulnerable or who are even more vulnerable than i am and i and i feel like i mean if i just think to my my work you know my workplace you know just working in there you have you know anyway I'll stop the illustration but I feel I really do feel like I'm throwing myself in the spoke because because I'm less vulnerable than others especially of our students especially students of color especially women of color on our campus I feel like I'm throwing myself in this book of the world for them as an advocate inflicting some vestige of suffering on myself I know this is an institutional space where I'm talking about this illustration so the suffering is not as great as we're talking about bodily harm because that does happen but I think as a follower of Christ to inject myself into a place of suffering on behalf of somebody else is actually trying to you know in effort to follow that example of Christ yeah I don't want I didn't want you to feel like though I was just putting you off I what I what is so difficult about this is because for me there's truly a shift I mean I can't stay with atonement theory and focus on the cross I mean I just have to shift and so as I was saying before one of my texts is the second Corinthians where we get the gift of the Ministry of reconciliation and what I see happening there or the Antonis work is that we become a new now yes they there's talk about you know he took on sin would new not sin before it's so forth and so on and I think that if we can start truly believing that Jesus took on the sin has overcome the sin and we are now called to be that new creation who lives out a Ministry of reconciliation which is a Ministry of healing which is a ministry of justice etc and so forth then I don't think we have to be as focused on you know redemptive suffering as much as we have to focus on how do we engage in the world to do this ministry reconciliation that was gifted to us okay by the work of the cross okay I think we're actually probably bit closer I think it's the semantics of suffering that we're probably tripping up over but with that weird that we that we're may that may be the distinction here right because I am what I what I'm suggesting is that is that empowered by the example of Christ and the Spirit of Christ that we are as as as as new creations actually called to engage suffering situations right and I think that that's stood at the heart of the civil rights movement actually that and and that was a very very prominent thing the unearned suffering is redemptive that was a prominent and constant theme throughout certainly King's life in ministry and and and many other civil rights leaders and and and and that stood at the center of the movement was unearned suffering but it was not it was not to make suffering itself a virtue it was to say that we have that we are already suffering right well we're what we're going to do is we're going to engage this this unjust situation in such a way that exposes the injustice and brings transformation to this situation and we're going to do it on behalf of the lease the last the most vulnerable in the society and and as Christians we're called to to do that and empower to do that so I think that's that's really that's really sort of what I'm driving it I don't know yeah but I do think we have to think about where we place our emphasis theologically and if suffering is the category of the day I think it becomes very problematic if however for me to put reconciliation as the theological category that's connected to the cross that's most important then I'm still going to engage in the work of justice on behalf of others right because that's what that's a ecology right so I you know I like I said I think we do though have to begin to make some choices about what theological categories are gonna get preached and talk so that people shift their paradise one thing that this is this is so rich thank you for you've caused me to think about something else because one thing that I'm that I'm nervous about is when we lose track of the very injustice that put Jesus to death and the very unjust structures of the empire that crucified him along with thousands of others in his lifetime all from his region of Galilee right and so when we somehow when the cross becomes inevitable right it it lets off the hook the forces of evil I love James Cleveland right love James Cleveland my favorite gospel singer but y'all know that song he could have come down off the cross just to save himself but decided to die just to save me beautiful song terrible theology terrible theology because it actually takes away from the very thing that Jesus was doing that put himself in a vulnerable position that caused the state to sentence him to death and that's what I don't want to lose sight great great so there are a few people a good group of people in the audience who want to hear an answer to this question and so we're going to shift gears a little bit and the question is this do you believe people are born sinful and if so at what point are people held responsible for sin they think it out there so yes Psalm 51 you know says that we were born in sin shapen iniquity psalmist David talking about talking about himself you know and I think that's the description of the lot of humanity that that there is that is that this does not undermine the fundamental goodness when I say that we're that we are sinful from birth it doesn't mean that we're junk that doesn't mean that we don't have dignity it doesn't mean that we don't have value that doesn't mean that we don't have that we aren't made in God's image not none of that at all it's just but but what it means is that that we we have within us that same proclivity that that is shared with the sort of initial disobedient initial initial estrangement right that we carry within us and in our souls that estrangement from birth that that's not that is certainly something that is reinforced something that is cultivated something that is supported by all of the estranged institutions and systems with it throughout our world all right but it is something that also we carry within ourselves and I would yeah I point you know to many passes but particularly Psalm 51 that kind of there's a couple times I was gonna jump in and add something but you kept talking and added it so I guess I as I was dwelling upon the most controversial passage when it talks about original sin that Romans five passage that I keep sort of coming back to you you know we were I do believe that we were represented in Adam in that and that we were not at the loss of dignity not at the loss of our image bearing capacity but that we do have that but proclivity toward sin from birth and and I think all the parents and in the room would agree with that and that that's an anecdotal reality but I think that does point to that I guess I would ask the question what's at stake for us to be born in sin like like I mean I ask that you know and I said as a parent what does it why is that something that we concern ourselves with I have I've served in a dual role for many years you know as an academic and as as a leader of a community of faith and I've watched families I would say go to blows but not maybe you know of watch family have serious conflict and I've also watched mother's distraught at the time of losing their child over issues of baptism and the destiny of their child's their baby souls and so much of that is born of some of these theological very theological debates right about the nature of sin and being born in sin and so in Spanish having seen that kind of implication the military's implications of that is what makes me actually even want to just suspend the question and IIIi just the weight of that June 21st 2012 we buried my daughter and so we in so we I don't have this conversation with vitriol and enthusiasm but it's something that my wife and I carry with us or our daughters carry this with them because they didn't meet their sister excuse my emotion you know but so and I agreed that she's not here with us we do miss her as well I coupled with this idea of a sin and how it's with us from birth and how our very Constitution I think is marred in the sense that that's what actually killed my daughter is the I think the sin affected not just it wasn't just a a volitional thing it was even her creation her body was marred by having a chromosomal abnormality so but what I find comforting is a language of Christ especially Matthew means to having the children that the Technion come to me it's a protection there and then it's extended in the language there is heavy and it's almost like salvific in the sense that there's protection for those two Technion and i grab hold of that in a very serious way and so I I do believe that I will see my daughter again and so so so while I do hold to the the the influence of sin and the life of a young person one that's you know even prior to being able to make any sort of moral or volitional sort of decisions as my daughter was because she ended up dying in utero so she never looked to take breath so to speak or did say that but I do believe that because of the language in which we see the Savior using when he's talking about the young ones coming to him and that protection that extends just beyond a you know a simple hug and a pat on the back and hey come and play with me I'm nice and cuddly and so and it's because of that care I I do think there's a trying to figure out a different word than dispensation but there's a there's a there's a there's a covering a relational covering that's over them this the the children in those scenarios the the stickier question becomes for me then therefore when does that sort of covering this come off but that's a whole different conversation that people have written books and books about but at the same time I do I do see the provision of that and I was there theologically before I was there and having a graphic grapple with that experientially as well so that's not to disagree with your assessment of that and me in the existential angst that the families have experienced but I I do see that being coupled with that theological dynamic yeah I think we also I think the question is also very much connected with our solidarity as human beings you know if the the idea of being you know born in seeing shape of iniquity that what are we sinful from birth that kind of thing is you know are we in this condition together or not you know and I think that that's probably that's part of that's part of that's part of what's behind that that that wrestling and that question with what's at stake and I think that's what you guys said well what's at stake with this I mean why should we even be having this conversation well I think part of what's at stake is that I is the question of are we in this together are we in this sin situation together or not and it's certainly a situation out of which you know the Lord has come to save us but are we in it together or not and I would say that we are in this situation together very much so from the greatest of us to the least of us from the most mature of us to the to the infant to the one that is in utero we're all in this together and and we need the Lord to save us I get the sense that even the way the question was worded that it was a matter of life if we are born if we are born saying then how can we if we are born into sin how can we then be responsible for any thoughts on that that's terribly problematic I think that's where I was you know trying to go earlier in terms of how we're actually able to use the language of sin and atonement as basically you know an exit ramp from responsibility and and it is this kind of taking responsibility that then does put us in this together right and that's where we absolutely I agree with you fully where I do believe that we're in this together because I believe that sin is the one empirically verifiable doctrine of the church right in terms of and so the previous question wasn't about a kind of us and and and us as moral agents and moral actors but it was actually suspending the question so that we can just simply affirm the the dignity beauty and preciousness of life like your daughter yeah I want to close us with this question and so we'll love for everyone to answer it and so the question is this how has the American churches presentation of the doctrine of sin been problematic and or helpful which I think you are starting to get on that a little bit dr. walton and then and then after that you can share how you would admonish the church or even the people in this room to move forward well they're looking over here I think the biggest problem at least as I see it in terms of the church and this whole business of sin is because one we have made it individualistic and personal and not institutional that's the biggest issue which we've already talked about a lot here but also because I think sin has also become collapsed with our Audiology around who are winners and losers are whose blessed and not blessed I mean all kinds of other dichotomies of theology that we use to separate out ourselves one from another I think that's what the doctrine of our our understandings of sin have led us there so that you know we are constantly negating some folks as sinful and other folks as not and and from there going on to live out through our public policies as well who which groups should we support or not support and so the problematic like I said has been this personalization of sin and not its institutional side and what was in the second half of that question I know I shouldn't remember and then how would you admonish the church or even the people in this room to move forward in their conversations about saying I would admonish the church and all of us in this room to continue to think about sin as our willful intent to break relationship so that we are pushed to think about the ways in which we participate in practices of exclusion and violence because we have named some people as sinful bad and outside of the scope of justice as well as Redemption I like that a lot I'm I'm really want wood I really want the church to do a better job of keeping track of the relative nature of purity politics in terms of what we view as pure what we've labeled impure what we viewed as sublime and Noble what we've labeled as deviant because if we even look at the history of this nation right and even predating this nation and the larger America's we understand that purity politics is always shifting it's always shifting in such a way where there's some things that are acceptable and there's some things that are not acceptable felici locks and dark complexion cannot forfeit nature's claim right why were why were poets saying that right why because felici locks and dark complexion had been rendered that which was deviant those of the Fallen Angels a woman's body has to be controlled and patrolled why because of our own masculinists and ro centric insecurities we've rendered her impure because she makes us feel impure why are we burying so many people in our churches and not able to have honest conversation about HIV and AIDS because we have to say that they died of cancer even as 200 years ago cancer was viewed as the same in the same manner as that which was regarded and rendered deviant and so we have to be clear because when we talk about sin unfortunately our theological guns more often than not are always pointing downward from the rich to the poor from white to black from men to women from straight to gay and as long as we do that we will fail to take responsibility for our own sins that are ever before us because it's easy to denounce and demean the sex worker that's on the corner but it's much harder to wrestle with economic conditions that her and the social conditions that strangle her well so as I mentioned everything has been said here has been it's been wonderful it's it's it's hard to know what's left to say here leave something yeah right you know I mentioned before other the the embodiment of saying I think that that's something that we have oftentimes lost sight of that we have lost sight of the fact that when sin shows up in in it shows up through practical acts of oppression and injustice and abuse and it shows up in the brokenness of lives and the brokenness of bodies and I think that's something that the church has to wrestle with today so that we can understand that grace actually shows up in embodied ways that grace is not merely something that happens between the Lord and me and does not show up in my hands and in my feet and in my practices and in the wedding in my in my wallet and in my way that I vote grace must show up in tangible ways in our lives and that's I think that's what I would admonish the church today there's none less to say so I'll be brief I think we all have to understand ourselves as well I'll say this I think when people get together who share a lot of socio-cultural realities in common similar economic strata similar this similar that similar similar political disposition similar racial background when we get together there st. there's this sort of polarization of ideas and at times what we'll do when we are in like in completely homogeneous communities the sake of not ever having to grapple with anything different than us it poses complexities because then what we're going to do is omit areas that we ought to be applying the redemptive power of the gospel to or even worse what it'll do it'll cause the people who are trying to cover collectively over that thing to even justify engaging it theologically with theological excuses with exegetical excuses twisting scripture not to have to deal with that thing that is an injustice that is the manifestation of sin and so I think we have to take ourselves having that epistemic humility is what I'm saying if we don't have that and we simply couple ourselves around with people who are identical to us and so our homogeneity becomes a compound iron sharpens iron and I think iron sharpens iron very acutely across lines of difference the difference is that our society says we should not to be to be traversing even even and I think of race as being one of those lines that perpetually comes up in our culture we have to begin to be heard and then hear others from different backgrounds and different genders and what-have-you just because you know if we don't do that if you don't hear the cries or the vulnerable who are different from us then you know the people that society says we don't have to listen to I think that when we're in spaces with people who are just like us we're more prone to not hear the cry of the voiceless and apply the gospel that we know well so just with that just one more question you keep talking about cultivating humility and so how one of the ways I think that we do that is by having conversations like this with people who are different from us what are some other ways that you are cultivating humility as you study God's Word and pursue further academics listen listen up so so listen to people who are in a different life than yourself and as you read scripture make sure that you are reading their interpretations of Scripture make sure that you are reading their commentaries make sure you listen to their testimony and the and the grace of God at work in their life I think that's that's one of the things that that I think helps to cultivate a sense of humility when you began to sort of put yourself at the feet of someone that society says you shouldn't be listening to when you do that then you know then you actually we're actually showing something that that's not going on in the world we actually are having a conspicuous witness we're actually showing that that Jesus can do something in my heart that that is unique and and it's actually bearing witness to a power at work amongst those people of God that may not be at work in the world today so put yourself at the feet if you're a man find some some women of color theologians find some women of color that might not even be considered theologians but their testimonies down throughout history redemptive history as well as the history of American history you know some of my favorite theologians are Phyllis Wheatley and Mariah Stuart and I to be whales and and good you you know you can go on and on and on and they are considered sort of you know within certain academic settings they aren't considered to be theologians but they are theologians theologians of action and and certainly listening to those voices cultivate humility dr. Rees right there woman it's theologians listen yeah anyone have anything else I hate to add but humility is a great Christian virtue I would hope that we I guess I want to shift to the cultivation empathy as a capacity that we just don't practice and humility can sometimes become another one of those problematic things especially for women when we are asked to be humble and not listen to so I'm I'm gonna put forward you know how we can be committed but not absolutist in our engagement with each other as the kind of ethical stance that I want to cultivate and people thank you so much for participate in this conversation so yeah give it up for our panelists please feel free to return to your seats and we're gonna bring up our hosts Lisa fields to tell us what is next

Channel: Jude 3 Project

Views: 7,303

Rating: 4.3548388 out of 5

Keywords: sin, systematic injustice, justice, jonathan walton, marcia riggs, walter strickland, mika edmondson, yana conner, piety, christianity, apologetics, courageous conversations, courageous

Id: O49lCZw3vIw

Length: 90min 0sec (5400 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 23 2019