The Inversion of Masculine and Feminine in Popular Culture | Furman College talk

so I'm going to talk about the inversion of masculine and feminine symbolism in popular culture just looking at the title it seems very polemical and in a way I guess there's a part of it that is it but I hope that we can work through very quickly the polemical aspect of it and come to show the beauty of the symbolism of the feminine that we have in the Orthodox tradition and so if you bear with me we will get through the the difficult part at the beginning so what's happening today in popular culture is that there has been for several years for decades even there has been this call to have more what people are calling gender equality in popular culture and so this call to have more female protagonists in movies and TV shows in you know even in video games and comic books all all of the popular cultures there's been this call to have these strong female protagonists and so what has slowly kind of come out of that is exactly that we have this string of manifestations movies comics video games all of this that have the the when I guess we could call the the badass you know feminine character who who she's strong she fights she she she she beats up everybody and so in a certain manner the hope the trope is that she this character which has all kinds of manifestations is there too in a way manifests the same idea of the action hero or the superhero or the military hero but as a woman and so we see that we recognize them we saw just I think these these are from just this year from just this year Marvel Comics Star Wars all these these these feminine characters who are who are strong we're fighting and who beat up all the guys around them now the thing I want to point attention to is that as we watch this as we watch this characterization there's something that's happening also at the same time what we're seeing is not only the representation of these feminine heroes but at the same time we see a strange demeaning or strange mocking a strange humiliating of the masculine characters within those same stories and so at first you would think that this is a question of a parody right we we have these these masculine heroes would be good to also have feminine heroes that we can look up to in the same way that we look up to these masculine tears but what's strange is that in the stories this many of the stories have this other trope which is to step on or to to mock so for example that there's a they did a version of Ghostbusters everybody that's probably seen this they did a version of Ghostbusters recently that had it all feminine cast and in the story which was in a way not necessary that they did so there's a scene where the old Ghostbuster who was a man Bill Murray she's sitting there in a room and they blow him out of the building and he dies lands on the head of the hood of a car and he dies there and you see the ladies come up to the window I said I guess he wasn't Ghostbuster material right and you think I mean it's a joke and it's it's fine it's a joke the problem is not that one joke the the the difficulty which appears is when it becomes a pattern right and that's what that's what I'm sensitive to is to to be attentive to the pattern [Music] there's a there's a recent there's a recent video game that came out and it is it's creating a lot of controversy because the video game is supposed to be a historical very historically accurate representation of world war ii and the fighting in world war ii and in the video game it's it's like 50/50 you know they have women people fight it's women fighting in the world war ii then they put a woman on the cover she's got a mechanical arm and cheechee no she's fighting in world war ii and so people are wondering like what this is obviously not a historical representation of world war ii you know not that there were women involved in the war effort of course there were but you know 95% of the native 99% of the people who actually held a weapon in world war ii would have been men and so what is like what is the what is the impetus behind that and what i am trying to what i want to suggest to you is there really is this strange inversion which is setting up where we do want to have this feminine character but we want the feminine character to embody all that is masculine we are looking and so it's basically if you look at the superhero characters it it's the same superhero character that was Superman Batman all those those those masculine characters it's only that it's act it's a it's physically a woman um now the one of the one of the examples of that everybody has seen the the Star Wars the latest Star Wars movie so if you look at the cover of the magazine right you you get a sense that the cover of the magazine itself it's telling you what it is that they're hoping to accomplish and so you have up there it says right can poke it along with his new boss and in the movie you have the scene where this care just appear that the movie is humiliating the female character and the trope repeats itself in the movie several times you see these characters being humiliated given a lesson taught something and like I said it's not the act itself because in a story you can have all kinds of things happen and it's okay to have variations that they have this the the problem the the question that is brought up is when we start to see it as this constant pattern which appears over and over in stories that's when we start to wonder what exactly is is happening is happening in these stories because of course there are always exceptions right there is such a thing as a extremely strong woman that could probably beat up anybody in this room that does exist the question is not whether or not there are exceptions the question is what is the pattern right what is the what is the social pattern that is trying to be shown to us so in in the in the latest movie The Incredibles - you really see this inversion played out completely they have the female character we are told that the male character is too reckless he's too chaotic he he can't control himself you know he breaks everything and so we're we're told that it's her she has to be the hero now and he has to stay home and take care of the children and what's fascinating and this is going to be important as we as we move forward in the story is that in the the story itself the the lady is amazing she's an amazing super it's actually it's actually I actually enjoyed watching the movie because it was so well done so well put together so the woman is amazing - doing all these amazing things visually impressive and everything and then the maximum character sorry I did I forgot to change this line and the masculine character is taking care of the kids but he can't but he's completely useless he's you know everything is crumbling around him and he doesn't sleep and he's become a total rep until you have you really have this dichotomy where you have one character which is shining which is amazing and then the other character the father who is basically you know can't do it just can't can't hold it together and we've seen I mean we've seen this this character we've seen this character in television and in movies now for the last few decades it's it's Homer Simpson it's the family guy it's all those idiot father's right you know they've been they've given them to us you know piece by piece you know and it so when we see this now it's almost as if we're used to seeing this trope in this in storage we've seen it now for so many decades that when we see the idiot father who can't do anything right and is it's kind of breaking everything and and can't get his act together we think that that's the normal it's a pattern of a story now a lot of people will think that obviously I am exaggerating a lot of people think that I am seeing this from a certain angle maybe from a traditional angle however it is but you have to pay attention to what's going on because what you find is as these stories come out the the people who are promoting the stories in the media in the you know in the even in journalism they're celebrating what I'm what I'm showing right they're actually celebrating that this has happened so it's not just that it's happening is that it's being celebrated and so for example in this in a recent in the recent movie called ant-man and the wasp you have this very pattern happening so they made the first movie it was a it was a male character and then the second movie you have a character which use herbs his place in the story and not only that but the male character becomes this kind of idiotic you know everything that he does is kind of he he succeeds only by chance he has no skill he's kind of the goofy idiot and in the in the press I'll read you a this is from this article that I put up here the the author of the article she lays it out herself she said we asked for more powerful women so here we are so the wasp is the best hero her mom is smarter than everyone the villain is a girl too the dudes in this movie are hapless and only succeed by accident and every one of those sentences has an exclamation point and she is celebrating she is celebrating the fact that that the masculine hero is being demean and is being kind of set aside for for for this kind of ascent of this feminine superhero and so I think that this is this is really the ultimate version so in Marvel Comics they they created this character who is Captain Marvel which is quite recent in Marvel Comics and they're making her out to be the most so she is the most powerful character in the entire universe and week if you look again at the magazine cover you can see that this is not they're not this is purposeful can you see up there it says the future is female so there's there's this celebration and the celebration is not of a kind of equality of a kind of parody which is what we were told that what it was supposed to be it was supposed to be a world where men and women are equal where men and women work together where you know we don't differentiate the genders so much but that's not what's happening we're seeing is rather a revolutionary trope where one is trying to supplant the other so why does it happen that way why does it have to become upside down and the problem is this is that we believed we were told that equality means saying that if we're to believe in equality of the sexes we somehow have to believe that they are the same that there's no difference between the two and that is not true right I mean the entire tradition of human existence has shown us that all societies at a time from the beginning have in different ways but have always demarcated the masculine and feminine and have had gender roles in society there they have been different I'm not saying that in all societies have had the same role but they have always had that distinction and it's been you know that the difference was acknowledged and actually the difference was was celebrated and so in order to you would say overcompensate so in order to say we can have women who are as badass as you know tough as much a fighter as much a killer as a as a man the only way to do it is is to flip it because you have to overcompensate for the for the illusion because we know that that's not the case or at least has not been the case in the entire history of humanity so there's this desire to overcompensate and that overcompensation creates this inversion which not only the ascent which is needed but it's also the demeaning which is needed to so the pattern of masculine and feminine is one of the most permanent patterns in all traditions you know in all cultures it takes different forms of course everybody will know this symbol so the yin-yang symbol is a symbol of heaven and earth it's also a symbol of masculine feminine a symbol of that duality but a duality of course which is together right it's not not an open opposition completely you know you could see it as a complementary complementary relationship and in in so many traditions you have that played over you have it in Greek mythology of Gaia and Uranus you have in Mesopotamian you mrs. mr. Damian mythology have Tiamat and absolute these kind of primordial either it's heaven and earth or sometimes it can be freshwater or saltwater but this relationship of two complementary you know opposites that come together to then produce something to produce the world and in the Bible we have a similar pattern we have this set up at the beginning of Genesis we have heaven and earth this kind of primordial duality and this this kind of primordial duality in the creation story itself you see how it's coming closer to each other you see these different separations but we're coming closer we have you know the heavens and then we have the water than the separation of the waters the earth comes out of the waters we have fish and and birds if you always wondered why we have birds and fish created on the same day because it's to repeat that same pattern heaven and our below and above so it keeps repeating and then it comes down to the human being and then God takes the dust of the earth and then blows in the air into his lungs the spirit when we read spirit I always have to remember that spirit wind is it's the same word so you have this union of heaven and earth which appears in man and it said that man was created male and female and then we have Adam and Eve as the result of that repetition of the basic pattern which was there right from the beginning and so there's something there's something that is extremely primordial about that relationship and if we if we completely set it aside we are going to miss a very important aspect of who we are as human being in in the gospel there is a call there is a call for us to transcend the opposites right we see it in st. Paul's they call tells us right there is neither male nor female neither Greek nor Jew right neither slave nor free and there is this call to transcend the opposites but there's a very big difference between transcending something and confusing something and hopefully if you look at what I've been telling you about to have this let's say ascendance of feminine character which wants to take all the masculine qualities while at the same time demeaning the masculine characters of the story what you have is not you don't have this transcendence you have confusion and an inversion and you have a conflict right you have you have this perpetuation of a fight and there's now it's just one side that's losing there are were times in his room maybe was the other side I was losing and now we have this other this other situation and we can see we can see in the the imagery that Saint Paul uses about of marriage we can find a glimpse of what it looks like to transcend the opposite because in the union of male and female in the union of masculine and feminine st. Paul tells us we are one body there's an actual unity which is created in that bond of marriage and that unity which in a certain manner transcends the duality because it unifies them together it is it's productive it produces children produce this community produces family and so when that happens there is a a productive result whereas when we have the the this inversion the result of that is the opposite it's it's conflict and it's also sterility and once we understand the basic elements of let's say that basic opposite of masculine feminine once we understand that it does in fact set itself up in society as male and female we can then also see that it is of course more than that then in a certain manner we are we are called to play those roles in our lives as well as the church we as some people like I am called to be the Bride of Christ I am called to to to also participate in the the the powerful and beautiful symbolism of the feminine and then encounter my Lord in that manner so it's not just it's not just about like I said it's not just about polemics and about complaining about some political change that is happening in front of our eyes there's something much deeper there it's something much deeper which needs to to be understood now the problem the trick in this this is really the the thing that I think is is in a way unexpected by many people is that when we look at the trope okay so when we look at the at the trope of this of the badass feminine character what seems to be happening is that in fact what we're praising what we're celebrating is actually not the feminine what we're praising what we're celebrating is the very you know the very classical masculine traits of being strong of you know of being tough of being able to fight all those types of kind of traditional male tropes that is what we end up celebrating and so the inversion actually creates this strange contradiction which what is being diminished in the end or what is being let put to the side is the beautiful and the powerful feminine symbolism which has been held by humanity for thousands of years we are ignoring it we are pretending as if what really matters what's really important is that we can embody those roles that what matters is to be the CEO we all we want to know is how many female CEOs there are how many you know female policemen there are how many that's what we want to know but we're not we've forgotten we've we've abandoned a celebration of the beautiful imagery of of the feminine so this I want to show you an icon this icon in the in the in the Orthodox tradition could be the most let's say celebratory of what we'd call kind of the hero type of behavior right it's it's very very it encapsulates pretty much simply everything that's going on we have a princess who is in distress and there is someone who comes and kills the dragon in order to save the princess and so it has its place I can it definitely has its place now the thing is that there is another version of this story there's another it's not the same story but there is a feminine version of this interaction between the masculine and the feminine so this isn't this is a version and I think it has it has some importance but there is also a masculine version right and so in for example the story of Beauty and the Beast we have a masculine character who is monster right who is out of control who is who wants to control everything who wants to hold her if he wants to capture her wants to control her her her presence there and in the story what happens is that beauty is able to tame the male monster and she's able to transform him into a man now this story is it's not just Beauty and the Beast there are many examples of this one of the one of my favorite examples of this this story is is a it's called Howl's Moving Castle it's by Japanese director and a Miyazaki and in this story we have that very trope and the character the feminine character is extremely powerful she basically holds the life of this monstrous masculine character in her hands and she slowly brings him to to to uh to transform and to open up a new space in which he can be more than what he was before but think of think over not just in popular culture and the Bible we have the story of Queen Esther and the story of Queen Esther is pretty much the same story as Beauty and the Beast we have this foreign King who everything is they're set up to destroy the Jews and then her through her grace through her manner in which she is able to approach the king contain him you would say she raised the king she invites the king to her house and the King enters into her house and then she reveals to him this secret that in fact Haman wanted to kill the Jews and in revealing this beautiful secret despite this powerful secret then the king changes and things flip over and then the King turns against and I mean there are many many other stories there's a in the very very ancient stories in the story of Gilgamesh we have a very similar story we have a beast named Enkidu who is basically a wild creature in the the forest and and this the the people of the city they send this woman and then in encounter by encountering this woman and entering into a relationship with this woman he then learns to become a human being so it's a very very ancient story and it's a very powerful story which shows you the other side instead of just wanting to put a woman on the horse st. George's horse who kills the dragon it shows another aspect another very powerful aspect of what the flip side of that story is so let's look at this this image again now we have many images of what feminine symbolism in in the church in our tradition and many of them they turn around the mother of God and the images that we use for the mother of God our images of her being the the opening up of this place the opening up of this possibility she is the temple she is the Ark of the Covenant she is the dawn there are all these images that we use of her to to to show her as this this place in which something will happen in which the divine will manifest itself and so even even in so the mother of God becomes the frame she becomes the the frame into which the manifestation happens and we can see that even in this icon here right we can see that even though we have this idea of the helpless princess for example that the princess is the one who is enticing if you will the hero to act without without her there's nothing happens there is no heroic action and that can be good or bad this is just a structure it can be good or bad if you look at the Trojan War right we have the same structure the trojan war is fought over Helen of Troy she is the she is the one who brings the Greek state that's why the Greeks are called Helens right she is the one who actually entices the Greeks to join together in order to fight and rescue her from the Trojans and so she becomes that the the space into which these Greeks can come and be come they actually manifest something so am i dead right and so we have this image we have this image of the mother of god of Mary as this frame as the space as the opening up of the possibility so you can see her in this this is the most ancient tradition of the representation the mother goddess to show rather the throne of wisdom to show her as this throne but if you look at the image you'll see that she is also this frame she is the space out of which you know the the Sun rises the space out of which something is happening and that that pattern is going to be the pattern of this this mysterious presence of the feminine always there in the church always there and following the story of the church and I'm gonna show you this pattern so this is the winning the wedding of Cana now in the story we see exactly it's one of the it's one of my favorite stories in the gospel because Christ is hidden Christ is not acting no one knows she's a secret she knows the secret she's the only she's the only one she knows the secret but Christ is not acting and so then there is a problem no why so she goes up to Christ and she says there's a problem there's no one and it's it's very fascinating because what does Christ answer he says my time has not yet come you think that is a crazy answer she's telling him there's not enough wine and he's answering I'm not willing to die it how do those things relate and they relate in the fact that she is inviting him she's inviting her son she is saying here's the question show me the word show me the answer give give us the answer she is there's that crazy it scene in the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding I I love that scene when everybody knows it when the the lady she says you know the man is the head of the household but the woman is the neck and we think it's funny and it's hilarious but I think there's something very profound in that statement because the mother God is saying this is the place where I'm asking you to manifest yourself and then Christ has to decide whether or not he's going to do it now think of that think of that in our lives think of that as a church what do we do what does the church do we ask we pray we ask God we say here is my suffering here is my sin here is my question and we ask God to manifest himself in that space that we open up as the church and what does the church say in the book of Revelation at the end what do they do they think they're calling their enticing they're asking they're saying come Lord Jesus they're asking for Christ to return and that is really the that is really the powerful symbolism of the feminine as it manifests itself in the in the church now this structure I think it's the it's kind of the opening scene for this where we really see the mother of God inviting Christ to manifest himself him knowing that if he shows himself to the world it's going to lead him on this path to his death he knows ready that's where he's going but this is the opening of that new space for him to enter into okay if you're interested I wrote an article called sacred art and the power of women you can find that Google they find it and one of the things I'm sure I show is that Eve did that too like she she she enticed like she kind of opened up a space for Adam and that that space was was was a fall and then the mother of God does the same but she flips it right she opens up the space again and then she flips it so that now it's it's to our salvation it's very powerful I think it's just those beautiful patterns in there and the big story now the pattern repeats itself over and over we have for example in the the judgment of Christ there is pilot who's there and has to judge Christ but in the background of that story there is pilots wife we actually venerate as saint pro kleh and she secretly no one in the no one in the crowd knew but she's secretly in whispering in his ear she said this man you know he's special be careful don't don't mess with you then we have the same structure who is the first person to go to the empty grave who is the first person who alone in that secret encounter to encounter the risen Lord its Mary Magdalene and then she goes to the disciples and then the disciples will encounter him in the in the space and they will also be the ones who will and the proclaiming the resurrection of Christ but she is the one who opened up that space then we have all the royal women of our history every single or art royal women every time a nation may not every time maybe it is but at least that we know it there are so many example that when a nation converts to Christianity what's the trope the trope is the same there is a woman who converts and it's there's this private secret encounter that we don't even know we don't know what those women told to their sons or to their grandsons are to their husbands but we see the pattern right we have we have we have sankt we have st. Helen who converts and then Constantine we have Saint Olga the grandmother of st. Vladimir who converts and then st. Vladimir but it's everywhere the first Frankish king Clovis the first Christian Frankish king who converted first his wife the first British King King Ethelbert is that a pronouncing King Ethelbert of Kent it was his wife who converted first his pattern is non-stop and we see it not only with the the the the royalty but we see it with the Saints too we see st. Monica who converts and then we have Augustine who is the Western pillar you know the Western he is basic you know he's that on which the west is founded and then we also have we also have st. Macrina the sister of st. basil of the Cappadocia ins who converts and then her family converts and so this the difficulty about this is that you know we often say in the Orthodox Church that that the mother of God is a mystery of the church we always say that we say we don't have too many doctrines about her but we have is that encounter that secret encounter as you enter into the life of the church you discover the mother of God and so you know I I even always have hidden hesitating to even talk about this subject because in a way here I am proclaiming something that is supposed to be right this this thing that you discover as you look and it's not there it's you know this pattern no one will say oh look you know the mother of Constantine can written before and so hey we that's not that it's it's something which is hidden and it's this secret opening of a space and so in a certain manner it's something that we probably shouldn't be talking about but that we should we should probably be experiencing and discovering in that secret place but I think that the reason why I want to talk about it is that I as I believe that it's that this this this beautiful symbolism of the feminine is something we have as this precious jewel and in a world where we're so confused about these questions we're we're so we think somehow that value is to be strong is to be a fighter is to be to be on top is to be leader and then we forget the value of the private space of caring the value of of caring for those that are there of also discovering that mysterious opening of the place where God can enter into our own lives there's this image if this everybody knows about the song of songs in the Old Testament where it is this song Song of Solomon where it is that basically a a romantic discussion between a lover and and of two lovers and the church fathers have always interpreted that as this relationship that we are meant to have with God that as we need to be able to in have that feminine space of opening up the possibility of then encountering this life this light that we saw in the Honda on the the knees of the mother of God the light that we see when we look in the apse of our churches and we see the pan aghia with their arms open in Christ who is coming out of the dawn who is who is showing himself on the ark who is sitting on his throne and so I think that we we need to be aware of that and be able to explore and to celebrate that beauty and not let ourselves fall into the War of the sexes that we see raging around us and so thank you very much that's what I had for you tonight so I if you have questions then I will open up the space for you I'm ready for the arrows but you know ok I'll hide behind the Thea yeah I know no I don't think it's tongue-in-cheek I think that you know I think you know there's a there's a there's a saying of Christ which I love Christ says scandal must happen right but but won't by those by who it happens I always I have this sense that if when I think of the French Revolution or I think of the Russian Revolution I think that the groans of the people were justified and real I don't agree with a revolution but I think that the the king who does not listen to the groaning of his people that it's going to happen right and so I do think that we have seen even in the 19th like since the Enlightenment I would say since the Enlightenment kind of accelerated we have seen a masculine tyranny I would say of the space whereas in the Middle Ages where the in the traditional world there was this this this real celebration of the mother of God I mean even though the warriors right in the West for example all the Templars and all the Knights went on crusade they were completely devoted to their lady and and it was this there was this this powerful relationship of relationships between the masculine and feminine and I think that we have kind of seen with the Enlightenment and you know the that say the primacy of reason over everything all of that has led to this extremely masculine space in which it seemed like the only thing to be was that and so all right so I I have sympathy for for you know women who say well I want to have you know where is the value where is the value of women and they want to take that value from the masculine image and we have not we don't celebrate it we do we celebrate motherhood do we celebrate caring do we celebrate the the kind of the secret of the private space we're eliminating the private space it's almost gone and so I think that I think you're in a way you're right with that I don't think I think that in our reaction to that shouldn't be to like to to enter the revolution but rather to to rediscover the beauty and the power of live of this feminine symbolism rather than play along with this this game is being played because it will make us miserable because we need each other so if we play this war who's going to win nobody's gonna win well I think I think that I think that in a way yes I mean obviously we need to not make much attention to entertainment but we are our world is led by entertainment we are it's all bread and circuses for us pretty much and so that we that's where the patterns are going to appear and so like I said I think that what we see is a pattern and that's what we need to to see and not only the patter but like I said it's not just the pattern but it's the celebration of the pattern which both together make us see that this is not this is not just something that is accidental that there really is this this desire to to create this change but yeah I don't think it's going to I think it at some point it's going to collapse the thing I'm afraid of actually if it collapses is is I'm afraid of them I'm afraid of the backlash in a way more than I'm afraid of of this I'm afraid that at some point some very angry people are going to start to be more aggressive about this question right you know like that the backlash against this is what I'm actually more afraid of so I love my I think that my my approach to this question has always been to try to say to the yes point to the problem with mostly tried to point to the beauty that we have in that we can we can show people hopefully that's what I'm doing I don't know I think they come I think they come from Genesis I think they come from that first set up of heaven and earth and so we have this have this imagery that we use which is our Father in Heaven and so we have this notion this association let's say with heaven or that's a spiritual world as being name identity qualities of things right and then if you see how the story plays itself out in Genesis there is this God said Let there be it's very beautiful right so he calls the earth to produce the different animals the different plants and everything and so it's like there is a name there is a a naming and then there is this work of bringing together and kind of producing the the creation which comes out of the earth and I think that that is our basic understanding of what masculine and then we we also then that that is then understood in the you know that the manner in which the ancients understood the sexual union of masculine and feminine as being a as representing that same pattern as playing that pattern over again and so and you can see it you know we always have to we have to kind of interpret the world phenomenologically not when we try to interpret it scientifically this this gets weird but when we interpret it phenomenologically we can understand it know uh someone sees a the seed which falls from a trees there's nothing right it's nothing it's the mustard seed there's it's nothing then it falls into the earth and then it grows and so the seed is giving that point right the Pearl in the field that that that name and then the field and then the production of this life that becomes the say the feminine the feminine answer to this this relationship and so then we continue on and we continue to see how st. Paul talks about the the relationship between Christ and the church and how he also relates that relationship to the relationship between a husband and a wife so you can see the same the same patterns being played out and so the church you know if you look at the if you look at the if you look at the architecture of a church you can you can see this I mean it's it's right there we have in the in the apse as a pen Agia who is the dawn right it was this space out of which the Sun is rising in the east and then at the top of the dome we have the fully manifest glorious Christ who is there in the dome then we go to the west and we have the falling asleep of the mother of God and we have this final coming together of the story where then she just like he was just like the yin-yang symbol it I always tell people the the apps and the western wall is like a yin-yang symbol you have Christ in the mother of God's arms in the apse then you have the mother of God in Christ arms in the West and there's this beautiful completeness of that relationship so I think I mean I could go on forever but but I think that it's it's out of the Bible out of Genesis st. Paul and then you know that I mean obviously as an iconographer I get a lot of my cues from from iconography and so you know if you look at the image of the Ascension it's it's a very powerful image of that basic relationship so you have Christ up in heaven with the Angels in this mandorla and then you have the mother of God who is under him praying as this space right this space which is that of which Christ is the head but who is also waiting to to once again be united with her with her son and then out of her you know on the sides you have then the Apostles and the church kind of kind of manifesting themselves out you know on the sides of her as being this this this basic space and and some of the icons do the Ascension you you see even it's very powerful because you'll see the mother God is standing on a little square foot rest right until Christ is sitting on a rainbow she's sitting on the heavens and then she is standing on this footrest and it refers to the Psalms where it says you know the heavens are the throne of God and the earth is his footstool and so this this with this relationship between the earth the feminine this footstool the church all of this kind of comes together that's kind of money yeah follow so when these symbols are expressed in men and women is that an expression of nature of virtue or something else what do you I do I'm not sure I understand the masculine expression of virtues I think it talked about I think it's an aspect of the cosmos but I think it's there right there and then the separation of having an earth right there and the cosmic structure it's right I just see it as the basic pattern of reality manifesting itself at different levels and then it also manifests itself in male and female and so like I said I do think that Christ calls us to transcend that opposite but at the same time the transcending of those opposites is it is a it's the image that we have of it is the marriage and it is this this productive Union and it's not a kind of everybody can be whatever they think which is what we kind of get in our culture today which is that everybody can have can just kind of play out whatever characteristics that fits their fancy not that not that these things are these are patterns right they're not they're not absolute in in in every individual manifestation of something I mean like I said we are called to play I think that everybody and sometimes is called to play masculine roles and sometimes we're called to play feminine roles and sometimes don't ask yourself that question like it's not it's not part of the part of what's happening have the females cast with male roles to kind of supplant a traditional male aspects courage bravery strength those kind of things not only as a way to make women more powerful but also a way to make men less powerful do you think that's not just you know maybe that's step two but I'm thinking maybe step three is just a complete decoupling of any type of gendered virtue any type of traits you know so that we could just we're not we don't supplant male with female we destroy both male and female I'm wondering if that's where our cultural ending I think that there's some people who want that it's clear and they say it out loud they're not hiding it I think there's some people who want that but I don't think it I don't think it is going to happen and I don't think Canada right and we can look at we can look at revolutionary movements to see like if you look at Marxist Marxist theory right there is this revolution the the proletariat take the role they they take over there's a tyranny of the proletariat and then after the tune of the proletariat everything disappears in every year and having on earth I think there's some people who think that that's how it's going to play out but the problem that it doesn't play itself out that way you didn't play itself out that way in Marxism and and it's not gonna play itself out again in that way in this structure as well whatever because they do up that the the only thing that you can do I think is create an inversion there's no other way because in the end if you try to like I said if you want to suggest that that that let's say women can be as much as much a warrior as as as men then you're going to run into a problem which is that right which is that reality is going to resist that proposition so the only thing you can do is overcompensate and then that's going to create that that inversion then there's no way - there's no way - just there's no way to destroy it there it's like you can see it even yeah try to talk about that but you can't let's eat let's look at let's look at let's look at we have this we have the transgender phenomenon now that's very strong and in the transgender phenomenon you have this idea let's say but what we're seeing is actually not that what we're seeing are that say people who are born born masculine who are celebrated for taking every single cliche trope of feminine representation and so we could criticize a woman for wearing high heels and and red you know and lipstick and looking like that but if a man does it then we celebrate it so so it's like it you can't avoid it's going to come back so it's going to come back in a strange mixed-up way but it's going to come back no matter what and then the trope the feminine tropes are appear in the the transgender movement as well you can't you can't get away from it I don't think so and it seems like even moving beyond you know masculinity and femininity we have the same cultural war when we try to think about the modern concept of Nations like you're talking about we can't really supplant it we'd only really transcend it you know it makes me think about how we a lot of people don't want their borders these days and you know when when you get to the biblical essences of that that's correct which neither Jew nor Greek but now we get to the point where it feels like there's no sense of nation whatsoever there's no sense you know we're all just human beings the same way that we're not male or a female were risking the beams it feels like we're kind of doing that among all the different patterns throughout humanity and it just feels like you know it's a war of against humanity itself we're trying to erase all distinctiveness you know to bring back to the incredibles if everyone I mean I think III was I think that I think that the proper vision of hierarchy the ISM is always the right way to see this is that we are one all one in Christ and and we are called to be that and but to the extent that we do have families to the extent that we do have groups that we associate with if we can do that in a manner which doesn't compete with our one unity and our allegiance to Christ to me that's that's the goal the problem is when you make a nation more important than God when you make your gender more important God when you make any identity that we can have when you when you make put that in competition with the the absolute then we have idolatry but it doesn't mean that those act that those different identities can't exist right and I think that that's that that's the confusion we're dealing with now is that people want to abolish difference as if that's possible it's not it's not gonna happen it's gonna come back sadly it's a key something I can come back with a the Fuhrer and we don't want that like the proper hierarchy of knowing I mean I think that the Orthodox structure of church it - it's when it plays itself right when it when it when it plays it when it's it can have very negative aspects as we were seeing recently but when it plays to its strengths and it acknowledges the possibility of a diversity of of churches and diversity of identities all in communion together so I think that that's that's the ideal no I don't think so well no I think there hope there's a lot of there are different revolutions kind of going on this the inversions are played out in different aspects of reality I think this one is one that we can kind of see very clearly we can see it playing out and so we can can point to it and say now we have a I think we have a better answer to offer the world besides this this kind of this revolutionary pattern yeah I think it's part of it I think there's biology as part of it but I don't think it encompasses the whole thing at least not in a biblical perspective I think that because we have this we have the we have images of this relationship playing itself out in our understanding of the church and Christ in our understanding of heaven and earth you can see that we can't limit this to to biology but I think we're not materialist you know what biology does play a part in it obviously there is a biological difference between between men and women and I think that to me the day the air that feminists not all feminists but let's say the kind of feminists that would be pushing these types of agendas the air they're making is is thinking that what has value is only found in the masculine trope and then wanting to take that instead of exploring the exploring the the other aspect of the world which is beautiful and which is which is necessary for the world to exist so I think that that's the problem sorry yes yes yeah I think I think I think you're right I think like like you were asking before I think that one of the reasons why this happened is because we because that we developed a culture that did not celebrate we didn't like we celebrate the mother of God we celebrate her constantly and this we live in a culture that stopped to do that a long time ago and I think it's not just that but there's part of that which is playing itself out in I would say I think that in Protestant ontology I would say we they they don't know where to put this question they don't know how to deal with it and so because of it comes up in all kinds of weird ways because they they don't have a beautiful image to point to an icon to point to it to say look you know and we celebrate her and who sing we so I think that that's I think that that's that I think that's the root of the problem baby there you go yeah we're glad feels please no I think we need to see comfortably we definitely need to see contraception as part of a bigger pattern you know with the technology doesn't come before the desire right okay right exactly the the the technology comes with the the pattern playing itself out like the desire to to see to disconnect sexuality from procreation right that that is an ideological move right and that was happened before the the technology that that would then give people what they want right well like I said it does create a sterile I mean a sterile world

Channel: Jonathan Pageau

Views: 187,976

Keywords: analasys, jonathan pageau, movies, mythology, religion, superhero, symbol, symbolism, interpretation, symbolism in movies, hidden meaning, religious symbolism, movie interpretation, occult, the symbolic world, occult symbolism, religious symbolism in movies, propaganda, pageau jonathan, jordan peterson, spirited away, star wars, last jedi, wonder woman, mad max, symbolism and propaganda, propaganda in movies, Furman University, Christian Symbolism

Id: ky4MIftjUDE

Length: 64min 57sec (3897 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 12 2018