The Holy Spirit & Tongues - David K. Bernard & Jared Runck

all right well welcome everyone to today's live conversation with general and superintendent David K Barnard and today our topic is the holy spirit and tongues and so we're glad to have you all with us brother Bernard would you share with us a little bit of why you think this is an important topic certainly it's great to be with you today and of course we are Pentecostals and so our distinctive doctrine and experience is the baptism of the Holy Ghost baptism of the Holy Spirit and we believe it's accompanied by the initial sign of speaking in tongues so this goes to the very core of our identity our doctrine and also our experience this is one of the key things that makes us different from all over the groups in Christianity so I think it's well worth discussion right right I think it is and and I agreed that this is core and it's one of those interesting areas where we have a lot of shared identity with other Pentecostal groups but also some distinctives and so I think it's important to kind of parse that out and and and let me just interject right at this moment yet all Christians of say Catholic Protestant sure so forth will agree in theory or in principle that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit to be morning right to be saved so we oneness Pentecostals shared that theory or theology that the Holy Spirit is part of conversion part of salvation part of new birth part of Christian initiation whatever term you want to use but what's interesting the Trinitarian Pentecostals who share an experience with us they would say it's a second post conversional optional experience so we stand in common with most of Christianity and the Evangelic Wilson soul in saying no the experience of the Holy Spirit's essentially is essential and part of salvation but then we stand with the Trinitarian Pentecostals to say it is a real experience it's not just something that happens automatically when you're baptized like the Catholics say or it happens automatically when you confess Jesus as your personal Savior like your Prosser's say it's a real definite experience just as found in the New Testament you do expect the miraculous signs right tongues to accompany it so we're actually kind of in the middle and I would argue we are the correct yes if you want to call it bring together oh yes the that the non Pentecostals would say you must have the spirit right and the Trinitarian Pentecostals who say you must have an experience of yes we I did once eight yes yes right exactly the so let's begin let's begin it kind of at a basic level real quick but let's just kind of briefly take us through the book of Acts and how the book of Acts establishes tongues as the sign of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost I mean I'm sure that you know many of our many members of our audience have know this like about your hand but let's use that as our baseline well I think it's important to take a look when we look at that we need to leave the whole Bible is inspired of God right we believe all the New Testament particularly is the basis for the church today that we think we are the New Testament church we also would regard Luke acts actually one-fourth of the New Testament is Luke acts and it's meant to be read as a whole and while it is biography and theology it's not biography and theology in the my biography in history sure it's not bog referring history in the modern sense it really is theology in other words first of all we believe Luke the author was inspired by the whole experience or it's really God's agenda we're talking about right not just a man's theology but history becomes the method of teaching theology so a lot of non Pentecostals they kind of write off the book of Acts and really they would have to write off the Gospels on the same basis but what I say by that is they kind of discount the theological value saying oh well it's not in a teaching format it's just history just what happened and my response to be wait a minute it's history told for a purpose and not only Luke's purpose but God's purpose and the stories are carefully selected for their teaching value and for their presidential you yeah the book of Acts openly presents the early church and the Apostles as the role model for us it's very intentional in drawing that right so with that in mind of course I would argue and I'm taking a little time here because I think this is the key question now we believe our Bible our doctrine is supported by the whole Bible so the Old Testament gives us prophecy promise typology the Gospels give us the foundation when it comes to New Testament conversion you see it the right of the preaching of John the Baptist you see it in the teaching of Jesus and everything we say about faith repentance water baptism the Holy Spirit it's there in the Gospels right but and throughout the epistles you have references back to our initial conversion experience nevertheless it is true that the book of Acts contains in the whole Bible the most specific explicit accounts of actually how people came into the church the New Testament church and how local churches were established right and x2 is particularly critical because is the birthday of the New Testament church it's the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit it's the direct fulfillment of the last prophecy and command of Jesus and in acts 2 you have all Twelve Apostles at the same place at the same time giving the same message Peter preached but it is stated all the eleven stood with him they were endorsing it and the question of what shall we do was not a question of how did we receive blessings or anointing or power for missionary service it was specifically we crucified the Messiah we rejected him right how can we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord how can we be saved you know because Peter had preached whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved right and so they're asking how can we be forgiven of our sin a murder it's a salvation mess yes yeah and so here you have and they said men and brethren and so they were conscious that they were not only asking one man's opinion they are asking the leadership of their church so to summarize acts 2 shows you and it's really the only place in the whole Bible where it's so prominent right all 12 apostles at the same place the same answering the question of how to be safe right now within that context if you read the story the 120 were waiting for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit they begin to speak in tongues which that was the initial sign there were three signs the sound of the wind the the flames of fire which we could talk about the significance of that but the third sign was the first sign of soceity with the individual filling there I get to speak with tongues right now when this happened is called a crowd of people people who had come from many nations to celebrate that the feast of Pentecost they were Jews so presumably they all spoke Greek the common language they may have all spoken Aramaic which was the language of the Jews and then they definitely spoke the language of their home countries but we would think they knew at least two languages because Peter was able to address them all in a common tongue so probably Greek but then they knew the languages of their home countries right so they're watching these galleons and they're hearing them speak these languages and some begin to Marvel saying wait a minute they're obviously Galilean by the way they're dressed and yet they're speaking Latin or yet they're speaking Arabic or yet they're speaking the language our country this is amazing this is a miracle this is a fisherman speaking yes yes Latin yeah what's going on here or Arabic who's never been to Rome right yeah right and then others are mocking and these are probably the ones that didn't understand a particular language say well they're babbling there they're drunk they're they're talking nonsense so some were marveling some were mocking but notice they were directly responding to tongues and they said what does this mean what does it mean to see these people speaking these various languages or babbling in these various ways so the Apostle Peter gets up with the others 11 and he says this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel now notice this it's a pointing word this you're asking about tongues right is that any points the prophecy of Joel notice it's not a prophecy that mentions tongues he didn't use for example Isaiah which totally right which Paul later used but he you the statement from Joel in the last days says God I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh so if you want a direct answer to the question what does tongues mean the 12 apostles says when you see someone speaking in tongues what that means is they've received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel that's a direct answer right and sometimes I get people asking well if tongues is really the initial sign of the Holy Spirit why doesn't the Bible just say so you you must speak in tongues tongues initial sign yeah well that is assuming a Western get instruct that all teaching has to be in the format of point number one probably number two propositional logic I define my terms I might establish propositions and I draw logical inferences and that is a valid way it's a way I like but that's not the only way in fact I would say throughout most cultures including today most of human history most of the Bible basically that is not the way people learn most of the time people learn by telling stories right and most the Bible is narrative the Old Testament the Gospels the book of Acts Jesus parables right most of time you teach the truth you establish a point by a story so I can imagine if we went to Luke and say now Luke you're the writer here why didn't you just say yeah yeah exactly you will know when you receive the holy goes you will speak in tongues I would imagine first of all Luke wouldn't even understand the cry he did that yeah I told all snoring why do you think I told the story yeah yeah but if you finally explained to him he would say well you know I'm a physician I'm a traveling companion of Paul and people may or may not want to know my opinion right but if you want the definitive answer this is what I did I told the story it's a true story but I put the question in the mouths of the onlookers right and I put the answer in the mouths of the Twelve Apostles I thought that would be a definitive way to establish doctrine so what the Twelve Apostles answer is when you see someone speaking in tongues you will now know they have received the Holy Spirit so that is exactly what we teach now that's only the first I didn't cover all that it's I'd cover the introductory right right and we see that pattern yeah in acts 10 acts 19 and then also by inference in acts 8 acts with yeah and so so if you want me to elaborate on this if you want to be very specific there are exactly five places in the Bible that describes someone receiving the Holy Spirit as initial extract as entering the church now there are many many references to subsequent experiences throughout Acts there are many references to pre Pentecostal moves of God by Old Testament the Gospel of Luke but if you're talking about receiving the Holy Spirit to enter the New Testament church that specifically you've got exactly five examples in the Bible in there in the epistles of course you have many references to being filled the spirit when people were filled with spirit but again the five examples so acts 2 is the one I've just discussed the next one of supreme significance will be axed in Cornelius and the Gentiles and what's significant about this story is Peter goes and preaches to the Gentiles this household and he's reluctant to do so because in his theology salvations of the juice or really if he were approached by a Gentile how can I join the church he would probably say well you know you need to get circumcised I need to go ahead and convert to you to come a proselyte become preside then we're gonna preach to you and then you're gonna do this and this to this right but because God gave him instructions in a vision three times he decided okay I'll go preached for these unconverted Gentiles he took Jewish Christians with him as witnesses because I think he had enough sense to know you know this is breaking precedent I've got to be sure I've got witnesses right now while Peter was preaching about Jesus the Holy Spirit fell in the whole group received the Holy Spirit begin speaking in tongues right which it seems to me it was shocking because he was probably expecting to finish his message and they asked what should we do and he was probably still thinking in terms of well here's how to become a process right here's how to go through the process right then but all that was short-circuited because they hear they're receiving the Holy Spirit and the key thing and they were shocked they were surprised but they had to admit it in spite of their theology in spite of their own tradition their own experience their own presuppositions and here's the key statement axed in 46 for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God right so you get the distinct impression we have to admit it we didn't think this is possible we have we're forced to admit it because there is the visible sign that we know right and so you you also get the idea of corneas had an interrupted messes oh I believe this I feel excited I feel great great have I received the Holy Spirit they say no or if you say I accept Jesus as my savior I believe in Jesus I believe what you're saying I too want to claim this they're gonna probably say well no no but when they saw the speaking in tongues they have seen well yes yeah and then Peter says you know we would normally baptize people like this can we can anybody find a reason to God his film spirit can we deny no and then in acts 11 Paul has Peter has to go back to Jerusalem and give an account because the apostles and elders the leadership they've heard he went to the house of Gentiles which breaks the tradition and this is shocking and they want to know and he explains and then he said you know when this happened I remember what Jesus told us that you're gonna be baptized with the Holy Spirit and and God gave them the same gift as he did to us we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that's Acts 11 15 through 17 and what leaps out at you is it's the very same experience right well wait a minute there's no sound of rushing mighty wind there's no tongues like fire the only point of identity is speaking in tongues but that was sufficient so in acts 10 you see it was necessary without it they wouldn't have been convinced now you see it's sufficient if that's all you have that's still enough so it's both necessary and sufficient right and notice the logic also just like us at the beginning which that's a very Pentecostal apostolic approach it's not well there could be many different ways of being countering God right and down through history we may have come up with different versions no he's looking for at the same is at the beginning yeah and then the third thing I would point out is the same as us when we believed on Jesus Christ so he's linking this not with some post conversion experience certainly not human works as if tongues were your works right he's saying this is what happened to us when we fully believed on Jesus this is what we will expect to happen to everyone else when they so he's connecting it back to conversion right example conversion so accident is critical because it connects tongues as the necessary and sufficient sign it connects it to the day of Pentecost and it connects it to faith in Jesus and conversion now the third account is acts 19 right the disciples of John and Ephesus and they too when they receive the Holy Spirit it specifically says they spoke with tongues no I've heard many people say or write well in the first instance acts 2 it was a precedent to announce that the spirit had come and so there had to be a miraculous sign of tongues we shouldn't necessarily expect that in all subsequent events just the first day well then you come to Cornelius well that's precedent setting because that's the first time the Gentiles received the spirit so acts 2 introduces it to the Jews acts 10 introduces the Gentiles but once the pattern is said or once the ice is broken you don't have to have every subsequent event well my question then it becomes what's the precedent value of acts 19 the present value is this local group of people in Ephesus received the Holy Spirit so to me this is just as great of precedent because what it says every local group of believers no matter how many years after Pentecost right no matter what distance they should have the same expectation to link them back so you know the evidentiary rule the Old Testament which the New Testament quotes in the mouth of two or three witnesses and I think Luke was very intentional saying I got to give you at least two key cases and I'll give you a third for good measure right that sets the pattern David yeah I met evidentiary standard has been met right no you have I said there were five you have to you have acts 8 which does reference the Samaritans receiving the spirit but doesn't really describe it however we know there was a definite sign right and we know if you look at acts 8 Philip preached the Samaritans they believed they were baptized I think we can safely say repentance can be assumed as a precondition there was a great joy there were all kinds of miracles but they knew they hadn't received the Holy Spirit right so this contravenes all of Catholic and Protestant theology because Catholics will say well if you're baptized you're filled with the spirit Protestants would say if you confess Jesus you're right with the spirit so no we're talking about something that's different right it's identifiable and so then the question becomes well how do they know it didn't happen yet how could they be so positive no you haven't received the spirit right and then Peter and John came to investigate they laid hands on them and the Bible says at the moment they lay in towns and they received the spirit so again there must have been a sign because otherwise how could you be so definitive that one minute before we know you haven't received this fear yes you believe yesterday pent yes you have been baptized you actually have joy yes you're testifying that God is working but we know you have a receiver this is next minute oh we know you have received this right and it's just because hands relate them that doesn't seem to fit the context and here's the third point we know it's not just the automatic laying on of hands because Simon a sorcerer who who was doing magic shows he saw that and he said I want to buy the ability to do what you just did when I laid hands on people I want them to have the same right station now what was he buying were people saying I feel joy I accept Jesus as my personal Savior you would hardly want to pay money yeah you don't II what is that yeah and he'd hardly pay money to say hey folks I'm gonna do you an amazing show stand up here I'm gonna lay hands with this person watch what happens except in this attack you like he saw something right so there are three reasons why we know there was a definite miracle they knew that they hadn't received the spirit because they were waiting for it mhm they knew the moment they did receive the spirit and Simon wanted to by the power to demonstrate right now although it's not stated the only miracle that we already have seen is tongues so even a number of non Pentecostal scholars will say mmhmm it's pretty clear when you put the eggs together right there really is nothing else that would fit except than a spoken tongues the fifth statement is is acts 9 which doesn't have a description all it says Paul would be filled with the spirit but it doesn't even go on to finish the story right Ananias was going to lay hands on him that he would receive the spirit we're just left to assume well surely that happened right and of course by Paul's own confession I thank my god I speak with tongues more than you all 1st Corinthians 14 18 Willman and he spoke in tongues by the spirit or when did he start I would say when you receive disappear even if someone would say well its subsequent still you have in all five cases tongues is linked to the experience of receiving the spirit right so there is a uniformity and I've heard some say well how do you know everyone will speak in tongues maybe some will some well it could happen but it doesn't always happen I would just say well let's look at the example Acts to 120 receive the spirit mm-hmm it wasn't like 25 spoke in tongues 25 prophesied by 5 right had ecstatic utterances of joy using the gift of healing right what happened hundred twenty 120 spoken tongue yeah Cornelius in his household I don't know how many of their words extended household maybe 20 people 30 people shirt well 20 out of 20 Jochen tongues the disciples of John and Ephesus in acts 19 12 out of 12 right so it's not just randomly distributed distributed it's not just a few here and there or it could happen or it might happen it's actually the consistent hundred percent pattern right and yeah and it was interesting as you were talking about acts 8 particularly you know there's that they had joy they believed they had joy they experienced miracles yeah they were seeing supernatural they were already right but there was something it's almost as if Simon experience is kind of that same consternation that the first audience in acts 2 when you saw them speak in tongues it wasn't one Matic yes yeah so I yeah so it was you I think it's pretty cool to think about that I mean there's a lot of stuff we've talked a little bit about Joel - one of the other things maybe to talk about because I think one of the things to answer in this is why did God choose tongues we know there's many and it could be any number of manifestations beer why is it tons then not the flames the flame of fire the sound of the rushing mighty wind there's other signs we see in acts is it just a sovereign choice or is there kind of an integral biblical logic at work in this well first of all of course when we talk about questions like that after we said look that's God's idea yeah exactly you can do what he wants to do sovereign choice and the ultimate answer yes and you know sometimes people ask well do I have to speak in tongues or why do you say everybody cries - and my response I was wait a minute hey look this is God's idea I'm not saying you have to suck it God chose that exact know when when I prayed up right and most of the time when we talk to people we we may not even mention tongues or if we do we're just mentioning well you can don't be surprised or surrendered to this but our main focus is have faith in Jesus repent of your sins pray to Jesus we don't tell people seek tongues or try to speak in tongues we we don't teach people how to speak in tongues at the most we might give instructions of you know surrender make sure you speak out don't clam yeah don't hold clinched you're healthy you'll let it flow but right but and usually that's in the context when somebody may seem to be on the verge of speaking - may not know how to surrender or open up but our focus should always be on repentance and faith in Jesus Christ not tongue so it's really like I'm not the one trying to speak in tongues sure God did that and I think that's very biblical because in acts 2 and in acts 10 I doubted these people even were expecting tongues it just happened right corneas probably had no idea it was gonna have right but when his heart lifted up in faith and he grasped it and he believed it boom it started happening so so my my answer first of all is well look that's God's idea so I'm gonna do what he wants but God is a God of order and design so I see two very prominent points here or maybe three but the first one is you have to recall the tower Babel where tongues became a sign of disunity scattering rate the nation so they would not fulfill their own Raymond's purpose in tongue and and today of Pentecostal speaking in tongues you see a reversal where God is bringing people from every nation back into one body now they're unified now they can accomplish their purpose because they're submitting to God right so I see a powerful biblical symbolism and typology of reversal of the curse of Babel disunity to unity man's will to God's will people scatter to people United right under God so that's number one number two I look at James 3 which talks about the tongue is the most unruly member of the body you can do you can control everything in your body easier than you can your tongue right and so isn't that interesting to think when God fills a person mm-hmm he's the symbol the last thing to go to the last thing a surrender and so he's able to use right not against your will it's not like you're right or forced but you voluntarily submit and think about that before you speak something you consciously think about it so so we use think in tongues you are surrendering your conscious cognitive control which is the essence of the human being to god you're just rendering that to you right so it's not just your physical organ your tongue but right your your intellect your emotion your will most be will everything about you that's human right your serene to God and now he's using the last remember to capitulate right your tongue so I think it's an amazing symbol in that regard and then third you could think of many signs of the Spirit moving upon people the sound of wind and the flames of fire signified the presence of God had come to the room and the presence of God had come specifically for each person so I think the the initial experience of Pentecost when the when the wind came everybody rise oh it's now here the promise is now here right when it the song said on each of on them I think they realize we they may not have known before this is not just a corporate experience this is an individual spirit by each person to believe but those are external signs and we can have many signs even today when God's presence moves in a room or a person they may shake they may cry they may laugh you know that they may tremble you know that but these are all external right but when you speak in tongues you're speaking from the inside out so the the indication is God has taken up residence right and notice also this sign works for every culture every language every race what other sign could you design because there are many things that might be symbolic in American culture that have exactly the opposite meaning or no meaning in another culture it's hard to think of a universal sign I think I know we think that but if if I do this what does that mean to you it might mean goodbye but in Korean it means come here so even the most or or if I do this right that means yes probably to you but to a Bulgarian it means no or if I do this right that means yes so even what we think of is the most obvious sign right don't translate universe right but when someone speaks in tones no matter what their language it is a sign that can be recognized in every culture of the world so so I do think there are several good reasons that make sense but of course gods are with you yeah yeah yeah so we're just kind of you know chasing after his log right did that right it's you know I look I want to delve a little bit deeper into this because I think there's an it there's an interesting kind of discussion that's developed the idea or making a distinction between talking about tongues as the evidence initial evidence of the Spirit and filling versus talking about tongues as a sign of the spirit infilling now my experience grown up in a UPC Church those terms were probably both used and probably used interchangeably yes but there's been some recent discussion Frank McKee is a name that comes to mind is Assemblies of God theologian that that has talked more about the the importance of talking about tongues as a sign that maybe no evidence is a to modern of a turn yes so how do we interact I agree with that and I would say in our typical you PCI terminology we might see them as interchangeable and use it interchangeably mm-hmm I do believe the the Assemblies of God their position has been historically the initial physical evidence and they say initial because it's not necessarily the only or the most lasting or the most important in physical because there could be other signs that your internal feelings but as far as a physical manifestation so they've tried to define like that actually the UPC I fundamental doctrine who says sign and I really like write better because you're right evidence sounds very modern technical scientific almost like God has to prove himself to us right or we have to prove ourselves to God and so when we use that language language of evidence it could shift the focus to what we are supposed to do or what we have to do and it can lead to miss applications of people trying to make themselves speak in tongues and I actually observed a pastor do this he didn't stay with us fortunately but he actually was praying over the person and he said say bah bah bah bah bah bah bah bah that's the Holy Ghost say bah bah bah bah bah bah bah well that is twisting the whole conversation away from faith repentance surrender right to what God wants to do in you trying to make it and people you know and I do believe there's a value in saying praise to God in you kind of getting lost in praise so you're not consciously trying to plain everything so say Jesus but you almost get the impression that in techniques are almost trying to say imitate us or get so tangled up in your tongue that you say nonsense and that'll end up being the Holy Ghost and actually in the charismatic movement I have an article from careers from a magazine where they actually said that you say nonsense words because that helps you get your mind clear of stuff and then God can start speaking through you well I'm sorry I think in many cases that becomes fake or right that's not the real thing so that word evidence can cause you to start looking at the human dimension where sign focuses look this is something God is doing right and we're just making note of the fact it's drawing tongues draws our intent attention to something God is doing right and I really think that is better and I'm thankful for our spiritual forefathers you PCI whether they fully intended everything we're discussing I think they chose the much better word say much more what local term yes yes we're biblical this is what God is doing the the focus is on being filled with the spirit right and so in principle you know however god wants to do it is okay with us the key is not tongues the key is the spirit right but in fact God has chosen tongues as a sign so we will know to draw our attention but that still gets it in the proper biblical perspective that what saves us is not tongues what saves us is the Holy Spirit God's work in us and tongues becomes a sign right right that's that's good point now you brought up and I want to move ahead a little bit okay you mentioned in write you mentioned the charismatic movement yes and I think that probably in this discussion is probably one of the key areas of distinction okay that we know that we need to look at so so let's talk about we use these terms Pentecostal and charismatic theologically speaking what are those what is the fundamental distinction okay now I think for us it's a practice we think in practical terms but theological II that I didn't know that has especially well first of all opposite that I want to say some good things about the charismatic movement are charismatic the word charismatic in itself this meaning is talking about spiritual gifts so in principle any any church that believes in spiritual gifts is charismatic and in that theological sense so we are charismatic in that sense historically that term has been attached to people in various denominations the Roman Catholic Church and mainline Christian churches usually in the 50s and 60s some of them started receiving the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues and it was from the witness of classical Pentecostals basically but what happened that was different in the 60s instead of leaving their denominations most of them stayed within their denominations so that was first thing they didn't see this as a total change of life they felt our change of doctrine or lifestyle in essence the original Pentecostals at the turn of the 20th century they saw this reception of the Holy Spirit as first of all as a change of doctrine so they're leaving their old denominations their old doctrines my second of all is a change of identity so now they're looking for a new Pentecostal lifestyle of the miraculous and the life of holiness and so it's a very clear break right dr. Lee and experiential II or organization yeah organizationally as well yeah they left their old organizations they eventually most of them form new organizations so the charismatic movers different in that they said it's a personal experience so we don't have to change our doctrine we don't have to change their organizational affiliation we don't even have to change our lifestyle so for instance if you're smoking drinking you probably would continue doing all right same thing yes it doesn't really have an impact so that was the first thing second thing is instead of seeing it as a distinct event the baptism of the holy ghost with the initial sign of tongues that's kind of hard to mesh with traditional theology so for a Roman Catholic well I already have received the Holy Spirit when I was a baby and when I was confirmed or Protestant well I already have the Holy Spirit when I confess Jesus am i safe right so so no I'm not gonna see this as receiving the Holy Spirit I'm gonna receive it as releasing the spirit that's already within me right or actualizing it so they begin to separate tongues so then tongues becomes a prayer language or it becomes a spiritual right discipline so it's not necessarily a distinct experience that has a sign called tongues it's just kind of morphing into a prayer language then many of them would say then that receive when the Holy Spirit you don't necessarily speak in tongues right they're not the same right so you can already have the spirit and not speak in tongues and tongues then becomes prayer language that's in your subsequent Christian life right so so classical Pentecostals which would include us which includes the Saudis of God Church of God traditionally would say no there is a definite experience called the baptism of the Holy Ghost the initial sign speaking in tongues most charismatic s' would not be so firm they would say tongues is just a spiritual gift yeah it's just a one language yes which has led as time has progressed that the vast majority of people within charismatic churches or movements no longer speak in tongues only a minority and I was surprised to see this but the research shows as you would see like in the dictionary of Pentecostal charismatic movements those churches that call themselves charismatic and spirit-filled nondenominational etc perhaps as few as five or 10% of their membership actually speaks in tongues now of course they also have a very loose definition of tongues so that right it's not always what we think of as a distinctive language it could be just some kind of generic or ecstatic or even imitated utterance that they would interpret his tongues and right as a pastor I had a number of people coming into our church from the charismatic movement that told me you know I thought I had spoken in tongues or I thought I'd receive the Holy Spirit but when I actually had this experience at our church right I realized what I had before was not the saint right I would not jump to the conclusion that charismatic people don't receive the Holy Ghost I do believe many genuinely received the same Holy Ghost yes the Holy Ghost yet Holy Spirit and do speak in tongues I'm just pointing out it's a much looser definition and a much looser experience within the charismatic movement right so it takes a lot more you know because there is it takes a lot more discernment yes to work just because they say they're charismatic does not mean they have the same experience or or just because they say yes I have the Holy Spirit right or even yes I speak with tongues right you have to dig into that right and so as a past or even it's preaching today in my public message a lot of times I try not to assume my audience understands me so come receive the Holy Ghost or come your speak in tongues well that may mean different things to different people in the audience even those who say yes I understand that they may have been taught in the charismatic movement so I try to elaborate you know you'll be you'll be filled with the God's Spirit you'll speak miraculously in a language you never learned right right so so theologically for us then and I think and I've heard you speak about this and others too there's a difference in apostolic doctrine between talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit and especially in 1st Corinthians 12 to 14 the gift of tongues yes so so talk to us a little bit about how we make that absolutely and what we say in our our official documents then the tongues is the same in F essence but different in purpose or different in function where I think that's true and here's what we mean 1st corinthians 12 through 14 talks about tongues in the life of the church and tongues as a spiritual gift so if you read chapter 12 and chapter 14 you'll find that for christians there can be a variety of spiritual gifts and one of those is different kinds of tongues and paul even asked do all speak with tongues and the implication is no not everybody speaks with tongues okay but that's in the context of the public life of the church so then first corinthians 14 gives some guidelines if somebody speaks in tongues in a public worship let it be by most two or three pray for the interpretation if there's no interpretation you know be silent speak to yourself and speak to God mm-hmm but also in 1st Corinthians 14 Paul says I thank my god I speak with tongues more than you all I sing with the spirit I sing with the understanding I pray with the spirit with the understanding so he spoke in tongues in his personal prayer life and as I just mentioned he said if you give a public message in tongues you pray for the interpretation is there no interpretation you could be silent as far as the bright light worship public attention getting the attention of the whole congregation but he goes on to say you could speak to yourself into God so he says you can still speak in tongues for your own benefit and directed to God you're just not getting the attention of the whole congregation when you do so so what we see in first Corinthians then it's different from Acts because in acts 120 all received all spoke in tongues same time right they didn't do it one at a time at the most two or three and they didn't pray for interpretation and they didn't stop when there's no interpretation likewise in acts 10 household of Cornelius they all spoke in tongues simultaneously they didn't follow these rules acts 19 all twelve spoke in tongues they didn't follow these rules so what's going on that lets us know that first corinthians 12 through 14 is talking about tongues in the public worship why not tongues when you receive the holy spirit not with some spirit conversion right so this is a biblical distinction because acts and first corinthians treat tongues differently the people in Acts didn't follow the rules of first Corinthians so you can see they're two different purposes right and so from that I would say 1st Corinthians is talking primarily about how do you use tongues in public worship and in that context no not every Christian is going to give a message in tongues I my whole life I've never given I've spoken in tongues many times I've never given a message in tongues my wife has and she's also given interpretations that's a gift that God has used her in he's never it used me in right so I'm not one of those who speak in tongues in public worship right now in my personal prayer or when we're all praying together or when I'm praying for people in the altar then I may often speak in tongues mm-hmm in that group context but that's to myself into God right it's not speaking aloud to the whole congregation to give them a word from God to be interpreted right and so I do see you might regard that I would say then just looking at the billable evidence there's tongues as the initial sign when somebody receives the Holy Spirit that's universal yes that's everybody and there's tongues as a public message which only some people will do and already happen sometimes and right you pray for the interpretation and then there's tongues in your personal prayer life right which could be for everyone in appropriate times right not to take over the whole congregational worship but in write a personal prayer now what we might call the gift of tongues probably would be focused on that public demonstration right so I really think everybody who receives the Holy Spirit does speak in tongues initially I think potentially could speak in tongues it varies your messages and tongues your prayer life and could yeah you give a public message but not all of them are going to do so the only thing that's universal and required then is that a sign of the initial village right we assume that everyone in the corinthian church had had an initial conversion and you know what's very interesting the people that would disagree with what I just said mm-hmm they would not have anyone speaking in tongues at all in their services okay so yeah they're hardly the best ones to interpret the passage if they say well I mean at least we follow the Corinthians and having tongues frequently manifested right these other interpreters they don't match racks or first Corinthians or anywhere else even if they theoretically say well it's possible that some Christian writes peacock you Cleese they don't really expect it and if somebody did stand up in their public worship service and did speak in tongues right they would probably ask them to be seated and ready escorted out okay so I want to circle back we got it we had a question come in from a viewer Scott and thank you so much for this question it's a good question kind of back a little bit but relates so the idea that tongues can be faked like you know our classes in charismatic churches and other places where you're teaching people speak in tongues if tongues is deemed necessary and can be faked isn't that problematic and what do we know about them no and that's a good question but I guess if we were looking at more evidence we might be a greater concern but you know anything that God does it to some level could be imitated by the devil or it could be I say anything I'm just talking in general terms when there's a genuine work of God there's also potential for a false work of the devil or a human imitation it could be sincere or it could be deliberately malicious right but even even miracles we find in the example of Moses Moses were was doing some miracles by the power of God the magician's objection magicians went along for a while at least with some sort of where there's demonic invitation or or trick sleight of hand but right uh so you know that's always the the possibility but the practical matter it's not an issue because when will you teach it properly then that will tend to weed out human imitation so the examples I gave people are sincere they think this is really what it is but when they're actually taught and exposed to the real right they understand no it's not my human efforts it's it's got to be a work oh my god doesn't and then there could be some cases of demonic there there there are reports of speaking in tongues among pagan religions and there are people who demonically possessed who manifest miraculous things like this and the antidote to that is the gift called discerning of spirits and I've seen that in operation I personally experienced myself where you can easily tell the difference yeah the difference and probably most Pentecostal congregations can testify this most mature Saints can say they can recall a case where someone got up in spoken tongues and they either their spirit instantly said yes this is real right or instantly they said you know what the guy might be sincere but there's nothing to this right or in a few cases people might have a royal encounter somebody that they knew that is not of God right and I've seen that happen where either I've been the person in charge or I watch the person in charge when it was of the variety of a sincere person maybe getting little Idol as yet maybe God is speaking to them yeah and they just think it right everybody that usually just gets passed over usually we just start worshiping we start singing we start praying and then if God is trying to speak usually a moment later someone else will come and everybody brings aside early because they know that's it right and in the rare cases where it's been demonic I've actually remember a case where a pastor as soon as this person started he stood up he said sit down that is not of God you're out of order budhwa and he just shut it down yeah so I think the discerning of spirits right well let you know if it's of God if it's of a demonic spirit or if it's a human manifestation is right there's the human spirit so while yes that could be an issue of 99.9 percent of the time we see someone speaking in tongues we don't have to worry what is this really of God or not there's a witness with our spirit there's a witness what there's writer and usually when they finish praying I asked them what happened how do you feel if you feel great and and usually it's not only the fact that they heard themselves speak in tongues but the fact they're overjoyed they're full of love they're like exuberant they're excited you know there is that internal witness and that's why you know when we talk about the physical evidence there's more than just the right the physical evidence there is a whole combination of something happening in your life that's good answer and I think that's that's helpful um so so I guess we you know I thought about we've prepping for this thinking about you know maybe some practical questions that crop up get and things that we could talk about as far as like the practice of speaking in tongues what we should expect should you when you're praying do you feel you should always seek to speak with tongues no because Paul said I will pray with the spirit I will pray with the understanding there's a time for both right so here's the way I approach prayer I approach prayer from the point of view it starts with our own conscious and worship and I use the Lord's Prayer as a model you start with worshiping God recognizing his sovereignty submitting to his will asking for his blessing then you go into your own needs and petitions and and and your the things that you're concerned about well some where along that in that process as you get into the depth of the Spirit you may start speaking in tongues or you may not so I don't necessarily try to push in to speak in tongues right every time I pray I just want it to happen naturally right and I Romans 8 comes into play sometimes we don't know what to pray right for as we are the spirit maketh intercession for us with groanings cannot be uttered and while I don't think that's limited tongues it could involve inarticulate groanings and signs it could it could be words in English that suddenly we listen to ourselves and say where did that go yeah I started worrying about this this I wasn't even thinking about that perlite nor that situation suddenly I'm saying these things right but I do also think it's tongue so praying in the spirit Jude talks about that as well hmm so you have Romans 8 you have first Corinthians 14 you have Jude here are three examples of praying in the Holy Ghost right while I don't think that is limited tongues I do think it's when the spirit takes over your prayer and speaks through you which could include tonight's so I think speaking in tongues should be a normal part of our prayer life but I don't think it's something we try to make happen because I think when you do that it's almost like you're rushing to that right and you shouldn't you shouldn't bypass there are times where you need to really engage your mind there are times where you need to think through mm-hmm because prayer doesn't really change God it changes us me right we don't be afraid to get God to do something he doesn't want to do it right we get God we pray to align ourselves with God and so sometimes we need to be thinking meditating articulating revising right you know listening to ourselves it there needs to be that engagement so I think speaking of tungsten out of the normal prayer life but not something we try to force or hasten or jump to or use exclusively as is this is the best prayer and the only prayer it might be the best for that particular time but there are other times where you need to express yourself and Paul even talks about that in the group setting you you need to pray where people understand what you're saying now I and I'll just give my experience what I found is usually I start praying in tongues more readily in intercessory prayer so when I begin praying especially with someone even right it seems just to break through into tongues and maybe that's connected to the fact I don't always know what I should be praying for I may have a few things I know or God may give me things that I that I don't know about the person but when I pray for them that person hears me say that and later they come back so how did you know yeah that's what I needed and I was well I didn't know God was directing my prayers but I think often it switches into tongues because I quickly get to the limit of my comprehension of the situation and the Spirit begins to intercede through me whereas what I'm praying for myself maybe I'm more aware mm-hmm and need to be more aware of what what I'm supposed to be saying right good good answers so let me ask this question then to and and referring back I guess here to your maybe your pastoral experience and in that what what were some of the most common stumbling blocks that people seem to encounter when it came to speaking in tongues well I I would say historically there have been a number of examples of people in the church for months or even years they're seeking the Holy Ghost and don'ts and writings and that always concerned me but as a pastor I try to treat it like this it's an expectation it's by faith it's gonna happen don't get uptight don't worry about it and I usually found that by teaching principles of repentance and faith and surrender in a few days weeks or maybe months sooner or later they would receive the Holy Spirit so actually in the life of our church we did not have many examples of that okay in the rare case where we did there were some I felt like they did speak in tongues or people praying with him felt like they did but for whatever reason they were expecting something so dramatic or so almost God just taking possession right they couldn't actually understand or comprehend and those you can shake your head and say well I think they did receive the spirit but we'll just keep praying for them to confirm and that would be my answer you know let's pray for God to confirm it so I would say through proper teaching and prayer you can lead almost everybody to an experience of receiving the Holy Ghost in their very rare cases you just have to put them in the hands of God like that work on yes yes and that's probably and loving treat him as part of the church but just continue with that expectation that it will be confirmed to them yes God knows how to deal with all our issues yes that's what we can trust that's suppose well we're getting really close to the end of our time here I mean there's many more things we could talk about unpacking a little bit of 1st Corinthians 14 the rules how those apply to modern churches that you know the first print the Corinthian church is pretty wild if you read those descriptions yeah and so seeing how those rules apply is there anything particular you would want to say about that well I would simply say we need the gifts of the Spirit in operation in our church and so there is room for a little bit whenever you have that happen there is all a little room for getting right right kind of a fleshly thing but I guess it's better to have a little bit of wildness they have no work of completely dead yeah and now in our major churches large churches Sunday morning service it may be relatively rare in the sense that everything you've got so many people and so forth so in the smaller groups you may have more manifestations but I would also say even in large churches I was pastor of one there were several people that God would use at key moments to speak to the whole church and a mature congregation knows not everybody's gonna do that in a small group setting you may have a lot more variety of an opportunity in a larger group is gonna be you're gonna want more trusted voices but I do think even in the largest churches there should be some people that God uses and the church recognizes that he can speak through prophecy or tongues and interpretation and I hope that is always part of the life of our church it needs to be amen amen well is there I think we're out of time almost is there anything else you'd like to add or say any announcements to make or well I'm sure that I would just summarize by saying tongues is obviously important or we wouldn't be mentioning it but our focus should not be tongues our focus should be faith in Jesus Christ right being filled with the Holy Spirit and letting God lead us so anything you you've heard me advocate tongues but I don't want to reduce it well you have to speak in tongues every day or if you're really spiritual you you know you're not spiritual until you speak in tongues or you've got to you're not really praying until you speak and so trying to reduce it to a mechanical thing or translating your experience into some kind of a theological rule right sometimes in our zeal we try to urge people right and I certainly want people to sense of the Spirit lit praying and living the spirit but I we can't reduce it to mechanical rules it always has to go back living by faith in Jesus Christ being filled with the spirit and letting God operate freely in our lives and in our worship and in our worship services as He wills that's that's a great place to end I think today so thank you all so much for joining us today I hope you enjoyed this time together and I look forward to hearing from our superintendent again thanks thank you

Channel: David K. Bernard

Views: 32,515

Rating: 4.8032789 out of 5

Keywords: UPCI, Pentecostal, Pentecostalism, Apostolic, Holy Spirit, tongues, tongues speech, glossolalia, Holy Ghost, spiritual, spiritual gifts, Jesus Name

Id: WoDjScnY8fk

Length: 57min 19sec (3439 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 24 2019