- Hello, wanna welcome everybody
that's joining us live. If you have any questions
that you want to ask, a theological question or a
practical theological question, you can send it in to Facebook
Live on the comments section or you can send it to ask@upci.org. Joining us today for answering
theological questions is Dr. Bernard, the
superintendent of the UPCI. He received his Th.D. in New Testament from the University of South Africa. And also with us today is Dr. Norris, who received his PhD in
Religion from Temple University. So we're gonna get started here today and I'll just ask the first question from Ezekiel, and I'll combine two of his. But he wants to know, with some Trinitarians now believing that God is a one God entity and even baptizing in the name of Jesus, but not believing the oneness
doctrine as the UPCI teaches, but they baptize in the name of Jesus, where are they at as far as salvation? - Okay, I'll talk first
and then Brother Bernard can respond to whatever I left out. We thank God for the shift
that's going on theologically. It's amazing that in the academic world, more and more scholars
are coming very close to what is a oneness
position of the Godhead. And we're so glad for the
hundreds of millions of people that are being baptized
with the Holy Ghost. Now, of course, the Bible teaches us that we're born of the water
and born of the Spirit. And when you read the New Testament, particularly when you
read the book of Acts, they were baptized in
the name of Jesus Christ. Now, the question really
that seems to be asked is how much understanding
does someone have to have who is either baptizing or being baptized in the name of Jesus, what
does the scripture say, and then obeying the scriptures. You know, when someone
walks in off the street and they repent and get baptized and get the Holy Ghost in the tank, they don't know a whole lot, but they're obedient to what they do know, and God acknowledges and
recognizes that faith. And so knowledge can come later, but obedience is primary. Brother Bernard, might
you weigh in on that? - I would agree with that and I would say, in Second Peter 3:18, grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So we start very practically. If you want to be saved, you
must believe on Jesus Christ. You must obey Acts 2:38, receive
the new birth experience. We don't give some kind
of theological test. But there has to be at
least an understanding that Jesus is your Lord and
Savior, as a practical way, in order for you to be
filled with the Spirit. But from there on, we
continue to grow in grace. None of us probably has
a perfect understanding of the Godhead, and many
people in our churches may only have a rudimentary understanding, but they have obeyed the gospel. So we would focus and
thank God for everyone who has obeyed, and we're
not standing in judgment on the quality of their
mental understanding, but we would encourage
them to keep growing into the fullness of truth. - Okay, so the next question's from Wynn. What is the UPCI's stance
on divorce and remarriage. - I'll answer in a rudimentary way and then I'll leave the complicated
part to Brother Bernard. Of course, our doctrine
is based on the Bible and God hates divorce
for a very good reason. I mean, it's always a mess. And of course, the Bible tells us that you shouldn't be divorced. There is an exception though. It's usually translated
except for fornication, or it's a couple times
you read the lips of Jesus in Matthew, except for fornication. The Greek word there is
(speaking foreign language). So, while we think divorce
is certainly something that God hates and we
don't like to see it, there are instances where,
because of circumstances, God will certainly allow it. - I would say that there's some things even worse than divorce. And so what would be worse than divorce is a spouse who's unfaithful
to the marriage vow, persistently unfaithful,
not willing to repent, not willing to be
reconciled, and it does seem that the words of Jesus allow in that case that the innocent party
is not bound to continue in a relationship that the other person is making a mockery of. But for two Christians
that are living for God, walking in holiness, there's no reason why they should get divorced. And if there's some reason why they are separated or
divorced, then First Corinthians 7 says remain unmarried or be reconciled. So that's the teaching for
people who are Christian and who are wanting to serve God. - One here for Brother Norris, is please explain, this is from Steven, please explain Jesus as God
the Father in flesh as a man who also acknowledges
having a God, his God, his Father, in the book of Revelation. - One of the important truths is found in Deuteronomy chapter six and verse four. It's hear, O Israel, the Lord
our God, the Lord is one. The Jewish people believe that. So whatever we do in the New Testament has to conform itself to that. Of course, there are scriptures
that say that Jesus is God. John 20:28, Thomas said,
my Lord and my God, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily and so on. But in Colossians 2:9, that's one aspect of understanding who
Jesus is, but in the Bible it also says there is one God,
this is First Timothy 2:5, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, so
it is in Jesus' capacity as a human being that he can be tempted, that he can suffer, and
that he can have a god, just like every human person has a god. Now, I think the question has to do with the book of Revelation, how is it that Jesus still has a God, or at least that that language could be used. It's interesting to note
that saving is still going on until the last enemy is destroyed, and that is, of course, is death. Until the final judgment, and
so Jesus is still functioning as our savior, and will do
so throughout that time. And so that's why the language
is used in the particular way that it is, Brother Bernard? - We simply need to understand that Jesus was fully God and fully
human at the same time. And because he was a human being, that means he was just
like us in every way except for sin, so everything
that we could say to God and about God, Jesus had
to be able to say and do the same thing, except he
never needed to repent, he never needed to be born again. But if we can say, I serve God, Jesus as a godly human being,
as an authentic human being, as an example for us, he had
to be able to say, I serve God. In fact, the Lord's Prayer, Our Father, so he's putting himself in our position, we both acknowledge God is our Father, but that doesn't deny at the same time that God was fully incarnate in Christ, so that we can look at him and say, he is the Son of God, he
is a human being like us, but we can also say he is God. And if you have a problem
thinking of both at the same time, think of the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6. Unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given, and then it goes on to say,
his name shall be called wonderful, counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father,
the prince of peace. So the child is a child,
but he's more than that. He's also the mighty God. The son is that, but he's more than that, he's the everlasting
Father, and of course, that's the beautiful
truth of the incarnation. Great is the mystery of God in this, God was manifest in the flesh. - Okay, Brother Bernard,
this is from Julaine. Does demonic possession continue to happen and how do you differentiate
between demonic possession and demonic oppression,
is there a difference between bad spirits and demons? - We do find demonic
possession in the Bible, and we're still living in the same age, so yes, there is demonic possession. I personally experienced
it and countered it, dealt with it as a pastor,
casting out of demons. I would say, you can't
make a sharp distinction between the various works of the devil. Some things may be oppression,
in which he's attacking, but not possession, one way
you would distinguish that, I do not believe a child of God can be possessed of an evil spirit because God's Spirit is in control. However, a child of God
can certainly be oppressed by thoughts of depression and
discouragement, even suicide. And so, I would say
it's a matter of degree, but for an unsaved person
it could well become a possession against their will. For a child of God, it could not. I don't think there's a
difference between saying a demon or an evil spirit,
or an unclean spirit. I think those are interchangeable terms in the New Testament.
- Yep. Danny wants to know if,
what a biblical approach is to submission to pastoral authority. - Well, let me just
say it in simple terms, that certainly, we respect
spiritual leadership. So the pastor of a local
church is the spiritual leader and overseer of that church,
but only God's authority is absolute, so we follow
humans as they follow Christ, so we follow the pastor,
as long as he's teaching the doctrine of God's word,
he's living a holy life, he's acting ethically, then,
in his function of his duties as teaching God's word,
we should submit to that. In his function of making
decisions to lead the church, we should follow his godly leadership, but it's true in all relationships, let's just say that
the secular government, the policeman stops you,
you obey the policeman, but his authority's not absolute. If he tells you to commit a crime, then you can't follow that. So I would simply say, we
respect our human leaders such as pastors, but we follow
them as they follow Christ and in the fulfillment of
their responsibilities. - I would just add to that, that some things, it's
not simply the right of the church and of the pastor to address the question of
how do we relate to culture, but it's the responsibility of a church. So sometimes, in a
particular church setting, a pastor may say, I've
studied the principles and this is how we're gonna do it, and this is my best understanding. And so sometimes, people will say, well, I didn't find
the scripture for that, so I'm not gonna listen to my pastor. So the pastor's authority
goes on what's stated, but it also goes on the
heart of a shepherd, who says, okay, this is how
the best thing we should do for the culture at this time. - Marilyn asks a question about holiness, and essentially, she's wanting to know, is holiness the result
of being sanctified, and what is sanctification? - I would simply say,
holiness and sanctification are synonymous terms in the New Testament, so we use the term sanctification as a process of becoming holy, as the Spirit of God works in us. The root word is separation,
so once you're saved, you're filled with God's Spirit, there's a progressive
work of the Holy Spirit to separate you from
the things of the world, dedicate you to God, it's a
lifelong process of holiness. So really, they're synonymous terms. Sanctification is the pursuit of holiness and God's work in your
life to produce holiness. - We had a glitch in our
system for just a little bit, so we wanna apologize
and welcome, re-welcome any of those who are joining us again, coming back on, we're here
asking theological questions to Dr. Bernard, the
superintendent of the UPCI. He received his Th.D. in New Testament from the University of South Africa, and I'll also note that his book that was his dissertation
that was published as a book is The Glory of God in the Face of Jesus. And that's something that
you can buy, purchase and keep on your theological bookshelf. Also, we have Dr. David Norris. He received his PhD in religion
from Temple University, and his latest book, also another good one to have on your shelf, is Life, Death and the End of the World,
talking about all things concerning the end of the age and then what is to be expected next. If you are just joining us,
please post your questions on the comments here, and
also you can send them to ask@upci.org, one question we have is what is a, what would be your response to logos theology, so in John, and how he uses logos and, additionally, how would you explain
that oneness perspective to somebody who's
interested in understanding possibly a Messianic Jew or somebody that is wanting to know
more of our opinion? - Want me to take that? John 1:1, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with
God and the word was God. Word is from the Greek
(speaks in foreign language), which means more than just a word, it's a comprehensive Greek word meaning reason or the
underlying principles by which the universe operates. And so I would interpret
it in a Christian sense, it's the mind of God, and
so if you look at John, he's mainly coming from
a Hebrew perspective, where God's word is not a
different person from God, but God revealing himself,
God speaking in human history, God acting, he sent his
word and healed them, a quote from the Psalms. So John would be saying
something like this, You believe in one God, that's right, you know God has spoken and
acted and revealed himself throughout human history, well, let me tell you, the
supreme action of God, the supreme revelation
of God is Jesus Christ. To a Greek speaker, John
would have, no doubt, understood how secular
people would take his words, so you could see, maybe, a
secondary or a dual purpose. You Greeks believe that the
world operates by reason, this abstract notion, well
let me tell you something. You're right, except it's
not an abstract notion, it's a personal being,
the Lord Jesus Christ is the revelation of what
you have philosophized and speculated about, and so I would say, the word, then, becomes the mind of God, the identity of God that
is first known only to him, but then, progressively
revealed in human history and supremely revealed in the incarnation as the Lord Jesus Christ,
so I would summarize it by saying, it's God revealing
himself, God uttering himself. The self revelation of God. Not a second person, not
necessarily a visible image, certainly not from eternity,
but the very mind of God from eternity that's now revealed
in flesh as Jesus Christ. - I would just say amen to that, when I was doing my master's
thesis, I found a number of, some of 'em were actually
very literal scholars, but a broad swath of scholars
who saw John, chapter one and just said same way. Fact, this past week, I
was reading N.T. Wright on How God Became King,
and he explained John one, in terms of Old Testament speaking in the very same way that Brother
Bernard just explained it. So this is not something
that's a Oneness perspective. This is the perspective of how we should understand John chapter one. - And, this is for anyone,
but Troy wants to know, does the Bible endorse slavery? This is often a criticism of atheists and antitheists, so could
you give a answer to that? - Short answer is no. The principles of the Bible,
especially the New Testament, overturned slavery, and historically, that's exactly what happened. The reason why the Roman
Empire eliminated slavery is because of Christianity. The reason why Great Britain
and the United States eliminated slavery was because
of Christian principles. But what you have to understand, the Bible spoke in a context
where slavery was universal. So the biblical authors
did not take the position, okay, let's start a revolution. Let's attack the government,
and let's all get killed to show that we oppose slavery. Instead, they undermined it from within. Many of the early converts
in the New Testament church were slaves, so they said,
okay, you're a slave, you're stuck there, that's your
life, but serve your master with respect and honor, work hard so that you can be a good example. And to a convert who owned slaves, they said, don't treat your
slave as a slave anymore. Treat that slave as a brother in Christ. You have an obligation to treat him, and so that would transform slavery into the equivalent of an
employer-employee relationship, and when you logically
followed that through, it would lead to the transformation and indeed, abolition of slavery. There's no reason to
criticize the Bible on that, because in the context of its time, it was radically subversive of slavery, not at all condoning slavery. - The Roman Empire at the time of Christ, there are various estimates,
but one estimate is as many as 50% were slaves, so it's, it was woven in thick into
the fabric of the culture, and this, just to say amen
to what Brother Bernard says, sometimes Christians today think we oughta take up arms or become
violently opposed to this or that, in terms of systemic evil. That's not the Bible's solution. The Bible's solution is
First Corinthians 13. Love is gonna beat every bit of that. - Cameron wants to know your
views, either one of you, on dispensationalism or
replacement theology. (chuckles) - Of course, people mean different things by both of those things, so sometimes when someone says dispensationalism they simply mean do you believe
in the future kingdom of God or millennium, so of course,
the Bible teaches that. And there are two slices to the Bible, Old Testament and New
Testament, so there you go. You got two dispensations. There was popularized
back in the early part of the 20th century, a certain
kind of dispensationalism. That was based on certain
numerology and so on, and that sort of, kind of got
into some of our teaching. It's not necessarily a
bad thing, except that it kinda goes beyond what the
Bible says at some points, and so, depending on
who's asking the question and what they are meaning by the question is whether I'm a dispensationalist or not. I certainly believe in a future hope, and I certainly believe
in what God has planned for the future, and that he
has operated in certain ways. But I would say this, my problem with dispensationalism is it oftentimes equates salvation with a
certain set of actions. So I've heard people say,
"Well, in the Old Testament "they were saved by the blood of the lamb, "and the New Testament we're
saved by blood of Christ, "and in the tribulation, they're gonna, "saved by their own blood." Well, just wait, wait, wait, wait. Anybody who was ever
saved is gonna be saved by Jesus Christ, so anybody who was saved in the Old Testament is
looking forward to the cross, and anyone who was saved afterward is looking backward to the cross, the work of cross, that he's done for us. Now, in terms of, is the world
gonna get better or worse? Do we just pray down, I
bind devils in North America and we're gonna take it
over, and the world's gonna get gradually more
and more Christianized? Let me just tell you
what my perspective is. Think of Charles Dickens,
it was the best of times and the worst of times. Is the world getting worse, yes. Is the world getting better, yes, because in the midst of
the greatest depravity that the world has ever
seen is the greatest revival that Jesus Christ is bringing to us. I still believe that Jesus Christ is gonna split the skies,
we're not bringing in the coming of the Lord,
we are doing everything that God is helping us to
do in this last day revival to see as many people as we
can saved in Jesus Christ. - [Bernard] Amen. - Brother Bernard, Michael wants to know, how should the church be responding to North America's post-Christian culture in respect to evangelism. - Well, it's interesting because I think this puts us right back
in the first century. The early church started
in a Jewish culture that believed the Bible,
but it quickly expanded into a pagan culture, not unlike our own, where biblical values were
not practiced or believed. So, this forces us to be more apostolic. We can't rely on the culture or tradition to support our position,
so we've got to rely on the word and the Spirit. Many people won't believe
in the word initially, that is the Bible, but they will listen to our experience and our testimony, and that, in turn, can
lead them back to the word. But we need to preach the word, and we need to ask for
God to confirm the word with signs following,
the power of the Spirit. In other words, we need
to be truly apostolic. And if we will do that, I think we can evangelize successfully, but we have to focus
more on loving people, being authentic and sharing a testimony of what Jesus Christ has done for us, and we have to trust that
God will work miraculously to touch human hearts and
to heal and to deliver in ways that secular people can realize, there's God at work in my life, or in this church, or in this service. And I think we as Pentecostals
are perfectly positioned to evangelize in our kind of culture. - Brother Bernard, or
Brother Norris, sorry. We have a question from Dave, who's wanting this
answered on Christology. It's become more popular in his area that claims that Jesus's
divinity and humanity were only joined after the resurrection. The main contention is that the divinity was present in Jesus in
the days of his flesh and that he couldn't
have died on the cross, since the eternal spirit is eternal, if present in Jesus's humanity, it wouldn't have been
possible for him to die. - Okay, well, first of
all I would say that when the shepherds saw the angels and they were announcing
the birth of the savior, in Luke chapter two and verse 11, the angel said to them,
unto you is born this day in the city of David, a savior,
which is Christ the Lord. And of course, the word Lord there is the Greek of the Hebrew
name for God, Yahweh, so it's translated (speaks
in foreign language), but it's intended to say
this is God who's coming. There's different
traditions of the Messiah that were in Jewish culture,
the Dead Sea scrolls had one tradition, there
were various Judaisms that had other traditions, but the oldest, well, not the oldest,
because you can go back to Genesis 3:15, but the
pervasive understanding of the coming of God
for salvation was that, from Isaiah chapter 40,
God himself would come. So the idea that Jesus was
both Messiah and divine, that he was Yahweh himself, is splattered throughout the pages of the New Testament. It's not something that's imputed onto him just because we want it, but it's there and it's part of the core
identity of scripture. Now, let's think about what
happens when someone dies. First Thessalonians
chapter five, verse 23, says, I pray your whole
spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. So we are various component parts. Some would say we're two
parts, some say three parts, but we have a material and an immaterial. What happens to us, what
happens when we die? Well, that immaterial part
of us leaves our body, so our soul, our being,
our spirit leaves our body. So when you ask how could Jesus die, how would that work, the same way it works for every human being,
that immaterial part of us. We use our body and Jesus was divine. He didn't become divine, but it was at the core of his
identity, Brother Bernard? - Yes, he was God manifested in the flesh from the very beginning, the prophecy in Matthew chapter one,
that he would be Emmanuel, God with us, so no, he did not become God at the resurrection. He was God, manifest in the flesh from the moment of conception onward. He died as a man, but the
Spirit of God did not die, the Spirit of God left the body, but Jesus Christ as a
human underwent death even though his spirit
remained as he always was. - This is a question from Nathan. As Pentecostals, we believe
that all must be filled with the Holy Ghost with
evidence of speaking in tongues. Why do so many people
from other denominations claim testimonies of God telling them that all they simply have to do is receive his Spirit
and believe and confess Jesus as Lord and savior? - Well, let me address that. I suppose that's really
a historical question. How did this other view
evolve over the centuries, which that would take a lot of discussion. We would simply say, if
you read the New Testament just for what it says, you will find that everyone is expected to be filled with the Holy Spirit, the examples that are given in Acts, the initial sign is speaking in tongues,
and the descriptions throughout the New
Testament are of a definite, tangible, identifiable experience that's not simply a confession, it's not even simply at baptism. So Acts chapter eight, the Samaritans, they truly believed, they truly repented, they were baptized, but yet it was clear they had not yet received
this definite experience of the Holy Spirit, so
that's what we believe. Now, the Roman Catholic church developed a tradition of infant
baptism, and so they developed the tradition that the
Holy Spirit invisibly came in that person at baptism. The Protestants developed the idea, and it came from being
predestined to be saved, individually selected, and so likewise, they identified a moment of confession or a moment of belief that you invisibly, unknowingly, were filled with the Spirit. I would simply say, the reason why that they say that is it came
from historical tradition after people were no longer
experiencing the Holy Spirit, and they were coming up
with a substitute theology. And all we're doing is encouraging people to go back to the original. We do believe there's
a definite experience of repentance, where someone
in a various denomination could come to the realization
that Jesus Christ is Lord, confess their sins, repent of their sins, and we believe there's
a definite experience and they will feel the presence of God, but we believe they should continue on and surrender until they're
filled with the Spirit. So maybe a pragmatic answer is yes, they are experiencing
something, it is real, it is God, it is God's Spirit, but because of lack of knowledge, they don't realize that
this is the beginning and not the culmination of
the new birth experience. - Well, we have a question
from one of our live viewers. Can you please explain, is Jesus eternal? When did he become
eternal, before or after he was manifested in the flesh? - Well, I'll start, I guess it depends on when you say Jesus what you mean. We believe that Jesus is the one true God, manifest in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. In him dwells all the fullness
of the Godhead bodily. So if you're thinking of Jesus as the manifestation of
God, as the Spirit of God, he is eternal, which means he
would never have a beginning. If you're looking at him as a human, obviously he is not eternal as a human. He's eternal as God, but not as a human, and his human identity would have begun with the conception in the
womb of the Virgin Mary and then his birth at Bethlehem. So I suppose it just, we just have to ask what do you really mean,
what are you referring to? The incarnation was not
eternal, God is eternal, but the incarnation is a
historical event in time. But I will say, it's a permanent reality in that God has permanently
chosen to manifest himself in flesh, so looking to the future, Jesus as God manifested in flesh, as a glorified human being, we will see him in
eternity, in heaven forever. - Just to add an amen to that, Jesus is the name of the man
who was born at Bethlehem. That's Jesus, that's what he was named. So, yes, he has a beginning. - Oh, we're coming down on our time, but we'd just, before we
close, wanna give both of you an opportunity and ask if there's anything that you would like to say,
encouragement on theology before we close here? - I'm very thankful to be a part of the United Pentecostal Church, and of the apostolic movement. I've been privileged to read
some of the earlier writings when modern Oneness
Pentecostalism came into being. What has amazed me, is
when I read the writings of G.T. Haywood and some others, I'm like, given their limited
background in terms of education, they weren't in
conversation with scholars, they simply were reading the Bible and understood what the
Bible had to say for us. I am so thankful to be
a part of this movement. I am thankful to be in
conversation with the brothers and sisters who are spending
their lives in pursuit of understanding what God's
word has to say for us. - I would simply conclude by saying, we can't answer everything
comprehensively in this format. It's a good way to engage, but if you want to be a serious student, there are a number of excellent books. You can go to pentecostalpublishing.com and you've got digital books,
and you can also hard copies. But on every one of these subjects, we have books, and I
myself have written books on holiness, on the oneness
of God, the new birth, and other subjects, Brother
Norris has written books, and there are many other quality books written by ministers,
scholars, professors. Dr. Norris is a professor at Urshan Graduate School of Theology here in the St. Louis
area, he also teaches at Urshan College, as do
you, so that's another option for online training or on campus training through Urshan College, Urshan
Graduate School of Theology. Of course, we have other
endorsed institutions, such as Purpose Institute, which
operates in local churches, we have various Bible colleges, we have a Spanish language Bible college, so there are many places,
so I would encourage you, if you're interested
in this kind of stuff, don't just limit yourself
to Facebook chats or social media, but get some good books or sign up for a course,
and be in conversation with other Oneness Pentecostals and with scholars who
have studied these issues, and that will enhance your
own spiritual understanding. - And Brother Bernard,
as our superintendent, is there anything you would
like to conclude with? We're getting close to General Conference. - Well, I would definitely
say, at the end of the month we have our annual General Conference. It's going to be in Louisville, Kentucky, so I ask everyone to
pray for God's anointing, God's blessing, we make
many important decisions. We have elections, resolutions, meetings of various boards and committees. Thousands of ministers
and saints will gather and need inspiration, encouragement. We have seminars for
lay leaders, ministers, pastors, for everyone in church. So if there's any way you can
drive or fly to Louisville, it would be well worth your time. So I ask you, I appeal to you to pray for our General Conference,
and I encourage you to attend our General Conference. - Well, that's all we have today. Thank you so much for joining us and watching, hopefully,
that we answered some of your questions and you
will join us the next time that we have a Facebook Live video. Have a good day.
