The Healing Power of the Sacraments | Dr. Bob Schuchts | Franciscan University Presents

what happens when catholics receive the sacraments and how do they heal our deepest wounds how do we experience their full grace and power join us today as we answer those questions and more with dr bob shoots who is the founder of the john paul ii healing center he's also a speaker and he's an author of the book be transformed the healing power of the sacraments i'm father dave povonk and i'm president of franciscan university in steubenville ohio and you're watching franciscan university presents stay with us [Music] [Music] welcome to franciscan university presents i'm your host father dave pavanki and i'm president of franciscan university in steubenville ohio and we're talking today about the healing power of the sacraments i'm joined by our panelist dr regis martin professor of systematic theology here at francisca university and dr scott hahn the father michael scanlon professor of biblical theology in the new evangelization here at franciscan we're also very pleased to welcome our special guest dr bob schutz who is the founder of the john paul ii healing center bob spent more than 30 years as a therapist while also teaching courses in marriage and family relationships applied psychology and marriage and family therapy he's also taught courses of theology and body at the institute and the augustine institute a popular catholic speaker is author of the book that we'll be talking about today be transformed the healing power of the sacraments bob it's a pleasure to have you at the university thank you for it's always good the students were very blessed by your ministry last night so thank you for generously sharing yours yeah i was i really enjoyed being with him last night my faculty too yes indeed um why did you write this book what was moving in your heart that said okay this is a good time to bring this out i i think for so much both in the world and in the church we've separated the whole process of healing you know i spent my career teaching and as a therapist from the grace of the sacraments and the healing of the sacraments and even in the healing ministry in the church we seem to somehow put the sacraments on the side and they're the most critical part it's like uh when you think about the wounds of sin the sacraments are the healing and pope benedict 16 said this he says they're healing not just to the individuals they're the healing of the whole structure the whole order and so you know i wanted first of all for for people who are looking for healing to look there first because it's it's all the power of jesus passion death and resurrection but it's also the the reordering of society according to god's purpose and healing the primordial wound so i wanted i wanted that to become experiential because we know it theologically in fact i've been influenced by you know some of what scott's written theologically but we we need to get it into our hearts and and that's what healing does would you say um that everybody in one way or another needs healing absolutely yeah yeah absolutely i mean evidence of the fall right there's the original sin but there's also the original wound and every single one of us no matter what our families have been like what our backgrounds have been like we're all experienced i think that's what you do beautifully about at the beginning of being able to take a look at those primordial wounds and how the sacraments heal each one of those which i mean why else did christ come right if not to heal us we're all broken there are no exceptions yes i think you're providing us the golden key that unlocks the gospels you know so many episodes come to mind but the one that the catechism grasps hold of is you know who touched me yeah well everybody the disciples are bewildered by the question no i felt power go forth from me and so to identify the sacraments as the powers that go forth from the body of christ for the body of christ to be healed you know at the same time i'm reminded of mark two my son your sins are forgiven and then so that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins rise take it propel and go home because the sins that have we've committed but the sins that have been committed against us paralyze us more than that poor man's ailment you know and so the external healings are still happening today thank god but the interior healings i think are not happening nearly as much as people really need yeah yeah maybe a more clarifying question do you think most people are aware of the need and what it is that they need healing yeah it took me a long time so i think most people are probably in that situation yeah right well in the new testament the pharisees are the least aware of their brokenness and that's what made it so problematic for jesus to reach them yeah i mean it is instructive that when the catechism introduces of the sacraments the celebration of the christian mystery that section section two is festooned with adorned by the image of the woman who had suffered this mysterious ailment this bleeding for 12 years she went to countless doctors to no avail and it was also humiliating i mean it was sort of a ceremonial ritual thing she was unclean and she doesn't touch his flesh but only the garment the external of christ which is how sacraments work something outward but it conveys an inward not just truth but power and it's it's so wonderful that jesus feels this power this surge this electrical current going forth from his body through the clothing yeah and that beautiful yeah yeah and i think we have so de-emphasized that the sacraments are powerful right you know and i think that's the thing they they do bring about change because jesus is the one acting and changing and you say in the beginning though that they are ordered towards this these primordial wounds so maybe speak a little bit about the primordial wounds that come from the fall obviously but they're a part of each one of our experiments yeah i introduce it as you know there is a wound and then that wound has several different expressions so and i think we all know these experiences it's abandonment uh i'm alone uh nobody understands me i think that's a common experience we all have in this world i'm not loved you know even though god says i loved you with an everlasting love we don't we disconnect from that we don't believe that we're lovable and then shame gets in you know that i'm bad or i'm dirty or i'm stupid or i'm weak whatever those things are hopelessness powerlessness confusion fear you know fear is a big one we see them right at the beginning of the fall in the in the narrative of genesis right they were naked and afraid and they were ashamed right and and so cut off from god there's also abandonment there's also all kinds of they hide themselves right you know you ask the question are people aware i think that's i mean we're aware of original sin we're aware of the effects of original sin concupiscence are disorders we're also aware of our actual sins but i don't know how aware we are that we can be healed of those those effects those wounds you know you point out what is it margaret sanger yeah not ever feeling wanted you know and so that slogan every child a wanted child is just a mask for her own sense of abandonment you know and and i think that you know it's like i i prefer to teach christology than to look into the face of christ because that's daunting as i discovered last night in your brief meditation i'm just like wow you know but that's so much more important than talking about looking upon the face of christ here with three other brothers in christ you know to spend the time in prayer this morning like you still want to fix your gaze on me and say you wanted me enough to redeem me like you know time out yeah you know and and that's just the beginning yeah you know of a deeper healing that is so profoundly needed by people much more wounded i suspect than we are yeah you've probably all seen the chosen yeah my wife and i finished it up the other day and now we're having a crisis of withdrawal but there's that one beautiful scene with mary magdalene who collapses and then comes back and she's standing between mary and jesus and he pretty much tells her look i want your heart that's what i'm interested in your heart i want you to fall in love with me because i i hopelessly love you and i mean that's really stunning it's not a world best performance right yeah and i know i'm never going to get the best version of yourself that's that's why you're in relation with me you're broken but i want you to give yourself to me with all that brokenness doctor how can you or how can the individual come to a deeper understanding of what their particular struggle or their particular brokenness or the you mentioned several hopelessness fear abandonment yeah i think starting to listen into the things that go through our minds and circumstances and the things that if you will throw us off our game but you mentioned the book that those things are often lies so is that what you're saying yeah yeah yeah attentive to that yeah be attentive to the things that are going on inside that are that are not about i'm loved and i'm lovable and i'm connected and i belong and god delights in me i mean that's we that's our theology but so much of what goes on in our heart as you're talking about is a whole different narrative you know like uh i'm really alone and i'm not lovable and i'm not loved and that goes on all the time and sometimes we have circumstances in our life where that's particularly triggered and so paying attention to those triggers those those events those relational circumstances where that comes up and then how do we deal with that you know we know how to go to confession for our sin but do we know how to go to mass with those places and allow the whole celebration of the eucharist to be touching those areas yeah i mean what you're pointing out in the book is that we embrace lies and we believe them and they become a kind of truth and i'm reminded of a ted talk by a woman at least 10 years ago she begins by asking the audience how does it feel to be wrong and they're like embarrassed it's awkward and all of that no you're wrong because what it feels to be wrong is it's the same as it feels to be right what i really should ask you is how does it feel to find out that you're wrong you know and how does it how does it feel to find out that you've been believing lies your own lies that you've been telling yourself and allowing other people to tell you as well you know that's that's like a trained derailment yeah you know but it's necessary because you're going in the wrong direction with that and those those become barriers that's the importance of it they become barriers even to the sacraments you know how many people have gone to confession and they're dealing with all this shame sure and i've been forgiven i hear the words of absolution but i can't yeah i don't believe i'm lovable right if my mind is constantly telling me that i'm not lovable i'm not enough in one sense it doesn't matter what the priest says i do it's just i'm the judge right so so that the solution to that is well i think we need to bring the places of our woundedness into the sacramental celebrations okay uh just to to allow jesus to meet us there uh in those particular ways it's like going to the doctor's office you know you might have five or six different places where you're wounded right you don't just show them the one that hurts the most you have to show them all you know and you also don't leave the office wondering why wasn't i cured of all of these you know wounds because it's a process and and unlike most doctors this divine physician will give you all the time in the world yeah yeah so there is this disconnect of i i think of berninos comment blessed be sin if it teaches us shame we're all sinners but the trick is to feel the shame you can suppress that and that's even worse than the shame and that i think is what you're you're describing how do we overcome that may that impediment i don't i know something's wrong but i'm not going to talk about it i'm not going to think about it i'm just going to put it out of there i'm just going to go take a flight from it and then i'll become like the pharisees good religious performer doing all the right things but my heart's not alive yeah i mean when jesus says you know why am i sitting with eating with tax collectors well you know those who are well don't need a physician but that's ironic and availed polemic because the pharisees are sicker than the tax collectors and even those who are infirmed and i think that good catholics can easily back themselves into it at least i know one you know and uh and to recognize that you know jesus brings people into our lives to show us our own brokenness the woman who's weeping and washing his feet you know if only simon the pharisee had said you know what i think i'm hosting this for a reason that's a step in faith to to invite you know the catholic who's approaching the sacraments to invite her to a vulnerability and to divide him to an intimacy of which they may not be familiar to so how do you how do you help that person come to that place yeah that's where community i think is really important and which is what you know eucharist isn't just me and jesus right right baptism isn't just all the sacraments are communal they're all communal and how well are we living out and that's really the the fundamental healing how well are we living out the reality of the sacraments in our communities and if we're living them out and we've received mercy and now we're a community of mercy and now we can come to each other with some of our deepest shame and come of our deepest places of fear and not be a not be paralyzed by that but being able to say okay this is this is what i'm dealing with and to have our brother who's received jesus or our sister who's received jesus be able to look at us with jesus's eyes of mercy i mean that's really saint augustine says you who have received have now become right and so how do we become not just receivers of the sacrament of reconciliation but reconciles how do we become not just receivers of the eucharist but the living presence of jesus and when that happens then we can encourage people to go deeper in their sacramental experiences and i think i think it's that community that and that that unifying experience which is eucharist sort of presupposes that first unifying event uh when everybody together confesses their sins and we all beat our breasts three times that sense of solidarity i think is really quite moving everybody's doing it yeah i mean everybody's saying i have sinned right right not my wife not my kids but to me i have to take ownership against one another yeah yeah and i think honestly just to that end i think this kind of a personal thing but i think we skip through that i don't think we understand the full power of what's taking place with that prayer it's like okay let's get through this so that we can get but again it goes to your this communal sense that the individual is repenting and he's a part of this body in this community and besides the sacrament of confession how much do i then share with my brother and ask for help great stay with us there's more to discuss on the healing power of the sacraments [Music] the reason why the sacrament reconciliation is particularly essential is that as the church church teaches that second reconciliation that when you come to that sacrament you're coming to not only the physical person of the priest but you're coming to a reality with the experience of christ himself so when the priest in any sacrament comes in into the celebration of it he is coming into the person of christ or in persona christi as the church teaches so what better way to receive from the sacrament of reconciliation than to receive it from christ himself so that when you walk into that confessional you're not just simply meeting your ordinary priest or your pastor but you're meeting christ himself [Music] welcome back to franciscan university presents we're talking about the healing power of the sacraments with dr bob shoots dr when when you look at the book it's the sacraments by their very nature are healing so maybe just the your thoughts about the sacrament and how in and of itself each one of them there's a healing encounter i think sometimes we think of sacrament of the sick as that's the one that deals with healing but you would say all of them do with you so maybe how does that work that relationship between the sacrament the individual sacraments because you do a beautiful job about each one is ordered towards the healing of of some part of our life yeah and so i and early in the book i talked about healing identity and mission and so every single sacrament brings us healing by bringing us into a particular kind of communion okay always with jesus but with others also and so healing is always about communion always about restoring what's been broken in communion and that communion is to the depths of our being not just outward but inward and then out of that the sacraments each one of the sacraments give us a particular aspect of jesus identity so for example in holy orders you've you've taken on the father's authority right and so from the fall everything is in disorder you know we see it we see chaos everywhere right and so what are we missing we're missing holy authority whole the authority of the way that jesus lived the authority which is an authority of serving not as an authority of domination right so in holy orders you take on that very authority not only of christ but of the father everybody calls you father and your mission is to restore everything back to order so you as the as the presider of all the sacraments is the agent that christ uses to preserve order back him yeah so baptism is you know what's what's the primary wound of the fall is this sense of being cut off from love and in baptism as we talked about last night with the students in baptism we enter into jesus's i am the beloved so our identity is beloved son or beloved daughter and then our mission is to bring that love into the whole world so each one of the sacraments has a healing component has an identity component and as a mission component and i think we stop at but you can only give what you've got and if you get jesus you've got to give them away right that's when it's love when you defuse it radiate it out yeah and i think my experience is that as i've worked with people over all the years one of the places we suffer the most after our broken communion is in our identity is like how we see and understand ourselves and yeah you know john paul the second famous line you are not the sum of your weaknesses and failures you're the sum of the father's love and the very real possibility of becoming the image of the son and so the sacraments are the are the agents the grace the means and they're not just events they're their relational realities that we live their doorways into a life you know when you talk about uh the healing the identity and the mission it reminds me of what saint thomas aquinas taught about the sacraments and he's really just kind of unpacking what jesus himself exhibits and lives out that you know the human life that jesus lives you know begins with birth but you're not just a newborn child you mature and you grow into perfection and then you have that moment of calling in the mission you know and likewise baptism makes us newborn children of god but we grow and we need to mature and be perfected and that's what confirmation is doing and that is you know inseparably tied to baptism as a sacrament of initiation but you also need to be fed and nourished through the eucharist and then the sacraments of healing the reconciliation of penance and at the same time the anointing of the sick extreme unction but the sacraments of calling of mission you know it basically touches upon every pivotal moment of a person's life from the cradle to the grave and it shows that when christ lived the human life he wasn't just kind of experiencing to get through it he was healing it at every stage and we have to go back to earlier stages where we haven't been fully healed and allow him to show us that you know why do you limp emotionally you know why are you staggering you know morally uh it's because of these wounds and it isn't like presto they're gone right now you can just do the 440 or something but it's so humbling because it's so gradual and yet you realize let go and let god and you know if you wanted a sort of overarching principle i think there is this particular sequence which which strikes me as really stunning i come to know who i am by first knowing who jesus is the consequence of knowing that learning that tells me who i am and not only who i am my identity but what i'm supposed to do my mission my purpose in life why am i here yeah if i could share a story out of that really struck me about the power of the sacraments out of my brother's life and i talk about this and be healed the brother who uh scott's brother and my brother were best friends and they got in trouble together and got us real they got us in trouble too or we got them in trouble whatever the case is uh my mother got blamed right yeah so my brother after my parents divorced became a heroin addict and all kind of stuff messed his life up after i went on a renewal weekend he got left out of jail he came to live with me went on the renewal weekend had a confession and after the confession he poured everything out he then was in his shame of realizing everything that he had done for the first time and hated himself just absolutely hated himself so the grace of the confession was so powerful that it brought up all of those areas of his heart that he'd been bearing he went out in front of the sanctuary and knelt there and was saying jesus how could you forgive me how could you forgive me and jesus said has your family forgiven you yes how through you don't you think my priests who have particularly anointed for that purpose has the power to forgive you in my name at which point the dam broke and he wept and wept and wept at the foot of the altar three years later he's on his deathbed he'd gotten a heroin needed he got aids from a heroin needle in the meantime he found his identity he said i'm going to be a person with aids for jesus and god used him to heal relationships in the family with my dad with my brothers sisters mom heal another person who was an atheist with aids and then on his deathbed we invited a priest in to give him the sacrament of anointing he was in a coma we were my brother and sister and i were going running planning his funeral we come back he's sitting up in the bed he'd resurrected and he was trying to walk and he couldn't walk and we said dave dave stay there say what happened he said when i was anointed immediately i was brought to heaven and saw jesus face to face oh my god and he says he said jesus said it's not your time quite yet i've got more for you to do and two weeks he got to reconcile with his daughter his daughter's mother who had never been married to all members of the family came to see him in those two weeks and the healing that happened and when i saw those two events the healing sacraments the impact not only in his life but in the family the relationships outside of the family you know talk about healing identity mission it was like i'm sold well there were two things that that occurred to me reading the book and then listening to the story is that first off that the sacraments are communal that the sacrament that your brother experienced impacted so so it's never nor is our relationship with christ merely but then the other is the way they're knitted together you know that the sacraments are knitted together and draw you into the other sacraments and it creates something not just beautiful in your own life in your healing but in the people that are encountered that as well yeah very much you think maybe jesus thought this through yeah maybe maybe yeah yeah and maybe he wanted me to witness it and share it with people yeah yeah and in each of us that's an extraordinary story yeah yeah yeah so how old was he when he died uh i think he was 43. yes so over 25 years ago but isn't that the nature of conversion and obviously the sacraments leading us into conversion it doesn't matter where we are but a deeper understanding our identity in the person of christ and that and that process that journey is never finished please lord that we are continually being transformed by that and that's one of the great blessings of continually being able to participate in the sacraments that each day maybe we hear something different yeah we hear in encounter the lord and i meet so many people say well i want something dramatic like that well it isn't always dramatic like that but we all our lives haven't gone that way so dramatically either but even day by day grace by grace we can look back and say oh i can see it yeah i have to speak with great discretion on this matter and you'll know why because since our friendship began a few years ago you know and i realized your brother dave who died was my brother's best friend you know not only did i share that with my brother and we had drifted apart for years you know but then you sent him a copy a signed copy and he read it you know and this has brought fritz and me back together again restoring a friendship i mean we have a long way to go but we've already gone further than i ever expected you know thanks be to god i mean the healing that takes place is not dramatic and it's once and done and over you know it's it's gradual but it's startling you know and it's it's fun it's difficult you know and that's true in every single relationship that we have with our parents with our siblings with our own kids you know with our in-laws and everything else but i mean christ knew this this isn't plan b what am i going to do now that the first you know couple has failed apart from me you can do nothing was always true from eternity and so to recognize that the word becoming flesh was always meant to be and that the healing that we need will always come from him you know it's so exciting to share the truth in the classroom it's so much better to experience in your private relationships with brothers and that's my wife when you consider uh you know the sheer impact of of christ's incarnation of the eruption of eternity into time when he plunges into the sea of of history and humanity those waves go to the very ends of the earth and if you're in christ well then why shouldn't you also be part of that widening expanding enveloping uh process that's that's the calling right that's the mission you know i i've done this teaching with groups of non-catholics and i can show them and part of this was your influence in what you wrote but i can show them where every sacrament they have a form of it you know they say well i don't understand sacraments yeah you do you don't practice them in the same full way but here and here and here and here and here and so everybody in christ at some deep understanding level recognizing that a number of years a lot of years ago i wrote a little paper doing that with the 12 steps yeah and being able to recognize in the 12 steps the whole the grace of the sacraments yeah um you spent some time talking in the book about how our brokenness blocks at times of grace maybe speak to that on how how that can be fixed how we can let that be yeah by the grace that's one of the things we talk about in our healing the whole person and be healed is like when we're wounded very few of us have the capacity to respond appropriately by bringing that to jesus and allowing it to be healed and forgiven in that moment so what happens we form barriers around our hearts self-protection we call them walls but they're formed by these identity lies you know one of the ways in which we decide not to trust is you know the fear wound is i'm not going to trust if i trust i'm going to get hurt again so i'm just going to be self-protected and we begin to make vows of i'm gonna take care of myself i'm gonna protect myself i'm not gonna let that happen again i'm never gonna let that happen again i'm not gonna be like my mother i'm not gonna be like my father i'm not gonna be like my older brother and those become a prison because what's happened is we've stepped out of grace in that moment and into the ungodly self-sufficiency which is a part of the fall and so our hearts as a catechism says become hardened by those kind of uh self-sufficient responses and the lies that we believe and that becomes and the catechism talks about this under forgiveness those become barriers to receiving mercy and then barriers to giving mercy and so love is blocked both in giving and receiving and because we don't know what we don't know we can't see what we can't see we don't recognize that these resolutions that we made in pain and anger and sadness have become something like vowels and so the circle is a closed circle yeah and we end up being trapped in it but again how does it feel to be wrong the same way it feels to be right but when you find out you're wrong it's like i want out yeah i went out of this line i went out of this circle right back that's a nice try we'll be right back for more franciscan university presents so please stay with us i heard bob speak on campus and he had us reflect on the baptism of jesus and place ourselves on the shores of the water and he led us through this lectio divina meditation where he just had us imagine that we were there gazing at jesus and him gazing back at us and just walking with us through our struggles and what we wanted to give over to him and how he's there to heal us from all of that what if you discovered a university with unmatched science faculty and programs a place where you didn't have to choose science over faith at franciscan university of steubenville you'll find faith-inspired student-focused research-driven programs leading to satisfying careers in medicine scientific research engineering computer science and many more science and health fields at franciscan university of steubenville education is more than just a word it's a discovery [Music] welcome back and thank you for joining us you're watching franciscan university presents which we record here at the communication arts studio at franciscan university of steubenville our students are operating all the cameras and equipment and members of our theology faculty dr regis martin and dr scott hahn and i are discussing the healing power of the sacraments with dr bob shoots uh dr bob you spent some time talking about the each particular sacrament kind of focus in offering a particular healing and particular grace in an area so the one i thought was really quite actually they're all beautiful but the one about marriage and maybe speak to that so the the the wound that we bring you guys bring in i don't bring it to marriage um but then how the sacrament brings here to that you're married also yes yes thank you just to remind you uh yeah i i tell some of my own story and that and uh just growing up in a family where my parents were divorced and they taught marriage and they taught it sacramentally and so it was a double wound it was not only the wound of the breaking up of my family but it was the wound of can i trust the truth of what the sacrament is you know feeling betrayed feeling betrayed in that and at two levels uh and again we talked about those inner resolutions i wasn't conscious of doing this but i made a resolution that i would never divorce like my parents and i'd never be unfaithful like my dad there was all kind of you know things that i had vowed without being conscious of it well what it did is it created this fear in me and so i talk about the sacrament of marriage healing the wound of fear because the family is meant to be the basis of our security our fundamental security right so in in the family when love is present children grow up secure secure mature and pure but to the degree that that's missing insecurity leads to immaturity leads to impurity and and so without realizing that all of us in the family grew up with this level of insecurity which every child does to some extent but but in a profound way i experienced that and i remember when my dad left feeling fear just by like you tell the story about afraid that robber's going to come into the house you could hide from it yeah right yeah pull under the covers right yeah i don't know if every child did i was older i was 13. okay but you know if i just pull up the covers over my head then i'll be safe yeah because i didn't feel safe i didn't feel sentimental and it really shows you the covering of the priesthood in the church the covering of a father and a family when there's that kind of security children's heart can rest you know when the husband is loving his wife the children can rest in that when that's broken in any way or divided you know i i say that every child's heart you know the two become one flesh every child's heart and every child's being is a mixture of mother and father and to the extent that mother and father are together in love the child's integrated to the extent to which mother and father are pulled apart the child's heart is is torn and ripped and divided and you know in the case of divorce it's it's you know dissevered uh and it's it's it's like an emotional abortion you know just this ripping apart uh and i felt that profoundly when my parents divorced just sat there and sobbed and then didn't cry for 20 years so what i didn't realize is when i got married i had two vows going on i had my marriage vows which were made in the holy spirit and they were made for better for worse and richer for poor to love honor and cherish my wife and to give myself as a bridegroom to her like christ did to the church that kept us together but this other hidden vow almost destroyed our marriage and it was me living out of fear me living in self-righteousness you know i'm going to be better than my dad right created the pharisee in me you know of of i know what's right and i remember one time i talk about this in my book be devoted i remember one time convincing my wife that i'm going to be committed to our marriage and she said i don't want your blank commitment i want your devotion and i was like oh my god i've been doing this out of self-righteousness out of my own fear of reputation repetition yeah yeah and and i hadn't dealt with my wounds that really was what opened up my well i started having anxiety it opened up my wounds and then i began to face the places with that and that began to restore our marriage you know marriage is always an ongoing grace but during that period of time when i was going through that my children developed an insecurity at the same age i was when my parents had divorced i mean all this came to the surface kind of mysteriously around that same time but then as we work through it you could then see their growth and security and my wife and margie and i growth in security so that when she died it was really a beautiful experience so talk about this in real suffering and she died four years ago uh we were all surrounding children grandchildren sons-in-law and i had a very profound sense of handing her back to jesus the bridegroom and realizing that i loved her imperfectly but i had haven't had the grace of the sacrament to love her but now she was going to live the real thing and what a joy it was a sorrow deep sorrow but what a joy it was to say through that hard time the sacrament kept us together the cat the sacrament allowed that moment to happen right allowed that time of intimate generations of kids that are growing up secure because of what god did the ripple effect that that has on their families and on their kids yeah most men i think have special difficulty acknowledging this you know i think movies depict mark wahlberg or bruce willis they're always tying their own tourniquet you know they're always cauterizing their own wounds it's like real men can't do that you know even if they deceive themselves into thinking that they can you know you know there's this old trope hurt people hurt people and it seems trite but it's profound it's very profound you know while i was reading be transformed we were also uh perusing a manuscript by dear friends of ours ted and beth three and beth is the child of divorce and you know after years of marriage and a marriage that didn't just look happy it was beautiful but there are wounds and not just wounds from your childhood but wounds that start in the marriage itself right you know and and kimberly made this point this morning to me in conversation she said to me you know the sacrament of matrimony isn't what kind of prevents wounds from happening it's actually what exposes the wounds that we need then christ to heal yes and it's just like bing bing bing bing you know it's like eureka that's so true it is and it's not just in a manuscript for their you know their marriage it's like we're looking at each other like for us as well yeah i walk with so many young couples and then when they get married and all of a sudden they're surprised that this extra level of wounds has come up yeah and it's like why are you surprised now you're secure that's the purpose of it right right that's part of that the the purpose it would be a really awful thing if if marriage would would only crystallize the wounds the hurt the dislocation but couldn't remedy any of it and and i think it may have been pope benedict who suggested that marriage is really of the answer to hell i mean hell is when you say to god i don't want to love i don't want to be loved i just want to be left alone forever you know the self-centered self you get what you want solipsism forever infernal frustration marriage somehow overcomes that because i mean to the extent you're open to the beloved there's a transparency and utter honesty you share everything and that means the shortcomings the failures yes and you do it together and you constantly have recourse to grace and everything and every day is a living out of that sex every day and choosing that yeah like all the other sacraments the quotes i love from catechism says related to marriage that the holy spirit is uh readily available for the couple i mean always yes if we could maybe just speak a little bit about and i appreciated that how holy orders kind of heal some of the confusion related to marriage maybe speak to that yeah i think about the confusion we're in as a church right now but i think back to the reformation and the confusion that happened at the reformation and from my understanding you all would probably be much more expert in this but my understanding is that luther at first only wanted to limit the authority of the bishop of rome he didn't want to do away with it he didn't want to do away with any of the sacraments but that one little tweak undermined the authority of holy orders right and then you just saw the domino effects of people leaving the church of priests like martin luther going out on their own and then each of the sacraments then losing and so what we lost and again it was a whole cultural experience but what we lost was the whole order of society because in the holy orders you know it's like what fell what fell in again i'm speaking the covenants here but what fell on the fall that god tried to reestablish in every covenant is fully re-established in christ and meant to be established in the in the sacrament of holy orders of the apostles to the successors and if you've ever thought about that as a as a whole line from there to here of apostolic succession you know not just from jesus but from adam to here with the covenants then that's the only order that's ever been in society right it's the only it's the only thing that has brought society back into the truth of who you are so in preaching as the prophet the priest speaks the truth about right order as king he serves to re-establish that order and then as a priest he offers sacrifices and he he prays and intercedes and counsels to bring people back into that order so it's healing on every function and it's for everybody just like marriage is for everybody the holy order is for everybody you know i think of the dallas charter back in o2 when it really first confronted the abuse and zero tolerance the crackdown on priests and a lot of it was so good but only years later did we realize that the bishops had not brought that upon themselves and so they continued doing things which only deepened the wound in the body of christ only deepen the doubt you know i think men in general but fathers in particular have the greatest trouble acknowledging their own woundedness and imperfection and you take that to the supernatural level of spiritual fatherhood and i can imagine that priests recognize that i'm a father but i'm more than a father less than a father biologically but theologically a super dad you know and it reading your chapter on holy orders just opened my eyes to how god is so patient and waiting for priests to acknowledge their brokenness so they can really bring deep healing you know you see it in the franciscan community on campus you know perhaps we idealize but at the same time we recognize that the brothers the friars there are praying together but i'm sure they're also feuding at times but years ago no you're absolutely right what you said was you're absolutely right is is to the degree that i have experienced that that i can participate in the ministry and sharing that with other people you said you can't give what you don't have i mean yeah absolutely absolutely when we were here for the priest retreat and you did that exercise with with bishop sam who had been a mentor you know and just the beautiful that father-son relationship that gets lived out then in your fatherhood amen in in eliots of four quartets he has the image of the wounded surgeon who plies the steel that questions the distempered part beneath the bleeding hands we feel the sharp compassion of the healer's art it's an ideal combination he's a surgeon so he's got this technical skill but he's also wounded so he can feel your pain because it's his own pain i mean this is the kind of priest you want who has been there gerald van a wonderful dominican in his book the divine pity says it's not just that we are redeemed from our sins but in the very midst of our sins we are redeemed he enters fully into that brokenness honoring now and also you know the wounded healer because jesus is the wounded healer but he also makes us into wounded healers but we can so easily get preoccupied with our healing you know and kind of ignore the wounds or vice versa right you can be fixated on our own woundedness that in that that trusting in that journey that no matter how far let's go back to your brethren no matter how far the wounded one is that christ grace can continually knows and sometimes becomes the biggest healer amen amen amen up next our panel and our guest will share our final thoughts and the healing power of the sacraments please stay with us [Music] the catechism of the catholic church states that the eucharist is the source and summit of all christian life and all the other sacraments are oriented towards it when we receive the eucharist we humble ourselves before the king of kings to receive him physically and through this reception i believe that he can truly transform and heal us each and every day part of my job as co-head of altar servers for the campus chapel i often lead processions with the blessed sacrament and i don't really see the blessed sacrament because i have my my back to him but as i'm processing and it's dark can we have a spotlight going i can just see the light shining through the luna and hitting people's faces and for a brief moment i see how i see the joy in their eyes the peace how they're kind of transformed by that encounter with the lord it's a very beautiful thing there is a place where education begins and faith and reason connect franciscan university of steubenville's online programs will advance your career through an e-learning experience that's both academically excellent and passionately catholic with online degrees taught by full-time professors in theology catechetics business education and other disciplines you can earn your master's degree online without changing your lifestyle find out more today at franciscan.edu where your faith and career can connect online [Music] and welcome back to franciscan university presents we've come to our final segment so regis if you would share your final thoughts with us yeah uh you know for a lot of people it seems rather odd that there's no particular virtue we assign to the sacraments and and if if you look at the church's catechesis she's got these three defining virtues and and the creed is faith of the code the ten commandments the beatitudes they represent charity the our father represents hope but but there is no counterpart of virtue for the sacraments because they represent the space the vital space the ambiance the setting the theater where those three virtues get performed enacted dramatized and they remind us the sacraments do that at the end of the day christianity is not just a set of doctrines we believe to be true nor a series of precepts we know to be good but a thing of beauty something that you perform enact celebrate and for that to happen you need a stage and on that stage we see the supreme sacrament christ somebody defined him as the perfect existential metaphor everything comes together in christ time eternity nature grace grit glory man god and he mediates everything so when we have sacraments we participate in the work of the sacrament the original primordial sacrament christ himself so you can't live the christian life without constant recourse to these sacred signs and the fact that and you bring this out so well in your book the fact that they are somehow compact of healing grace and power is so comforting to know so thanks for writing the book amen thank you scott you're fine i want to echo regis and thanking you for writing the book be transformed but also echo regis in the sense of how reunions take place you know nature grace but head and heart in particular here in this book you know where objectively theologically the power of the sacraments who would deny that this is what constitutes the tradition of the church as living you know but it's one thing to affirm the objective truth of it it's another thing to experience the subjective power you know and on the one hand you quote father cantala mesa you know who emphasizes the theological truth but you also then quote bishop baron who speaks of the church in africa as experiencing the power of the supernatural life and grace that heals and how it brings joy you know and i think of the tradition and how we need to reappropriate rediscover that but we need to be glad trads you know the heart and the head have got to come together so that we're not just angry about you know dissenting doctrine you know theologians who are off or priests who have failed or whatever there really is a hope a message of hope in the book that goes beyond the doctrine or virtue of hope there is a sense in which when you read this you become less and less afraid of facing jesus and saying not only i'm wounded but i need you to show me where i'm wounded and i need you to show me how we're going to get through this together yeah so thanks just to pick up on that idea it's it's really in the spiritual poverty that the sacraments have their greatest and and some of that poverty is the places we struggle the most uh you know i'm years ago reading your book on the sacraments sacraments are boring you know your discovery and i think for so many in the church sacraments are boring because we haven't engaged them at the level of the heart we haven't we haven't uh we haven't brought the places that we live every day and suffer every day and struggle every day and hope every day into the celebration of the sacraments it's like oh the sacraments over here and the rest of my life is over here and the thing that i want to communicate more than anything else is the sacraments have to be lived there their doorways into a daily decision and a daily dependence uh on jesus and and to be dependent in the places where we're most struggling you know where we most want to take control where we most want to fix things ourselves it's in those places that the sacraments have the most power amen final thought uh that's good perfect perfect well one of the things that that i was reflecting on is is the grace that um reading the book so again the book is be transformed um where we talk about inner able experience the healing power of the sacraments and i believe if people reach out to us we're able to get an excerpt of your book i believe it's one of the chapters of it so you can get this written by dr bob shoots the handout is yours free if you simply go to faithandreason.com or call the number that you'll see at this bottom of the screen one of the things that i often will say to individuals is when they come to mass or confession ask them to be honest and did they expect their life to be changed or be transformed in this experience and i think those who are most honest they have to say no and my concern is that what individuals are getting they're getting exactly what they expect from the sacraments so if you don't expect anything from the sacraments if you don't expect a transformation if you don't expect a healing if you don't expect a miracle that's exactly what you're going to get but one of the great blessings of my life as a priest is is being able to see people's lives changed and transformed by the sacraments and i could share story after story after story of individuals who come into the sacrament of reconciliation they're frightened they're anxious they're nervous and oftentimes they'll just invite them okay take a breath and and invite them it sounds weird but to be present to what we're actually doing so that it's not just something that one goes through it's not just a drive-through that one goes through it's not just an obligation that needs to be met it's not just the catechism says i have to do this if i want to be able to do that but it's an encounter with jesus and the number of times when when people will walk out of the the sacrament changed healed restored transformed because just by the simple act of the beginning of the sacrament inviting them to that inviting them to allow their mind to be broadened uh i think of the eucharist and and as as i was preparing for it nation of course i knew that i was going to celebrate the mass right but from my perspective to see what what i'm able to see is a blessing and at times difficult because you can look out in the congregation you can see the people in and i can nuance this if i need to who who get it right right aquinas says that how is it possible that you can be baptized and confirmed and and receive the eucharist but still come to the sacraments with no fire with no you know that there has to be something that changes and ultimately i think it and it's what you provide in this book is an awareness that there is something more like one of the things i i actually found the book very hope-filled is that that you provide the opportunity time and time again to focus on our brokenness recognize and see our brokenness but if you just left us there saying good luck i hope this all works out but what you do is you begin to unpack that that each one of the sacraments is a place of healing for a particular area of our life and and to begin to transform that fundamental identity that i've been baptized in christ and christ is alive in me and and greater is he that is in me than that which is in the world and to be able to encounter that healing presence of the lord in the sacraments and said it earlier not to hold on to that not to to possess that but to be able to go out now and to be able to share that so i i thank you for this i thank you for your fresh look at the sacraments and and for sharing your story as well so often times it's a very beautiful intimate glimpse into your heart and your life so we want to thank you that thank you so let's take a moment and and ask the lord's blessing upon all those who are viewing our program that they would come to know the power of god jesus we pray for all those who are part of our program that the next time they go to the sacraments that their hearts would be transformed that they would hear experience the power the healing and the transformation of the sacraments may almighty god pour his blessings on you the father the son and the holy spirit amen [Music] download a free handout on today's topic at faithandreason.com where you can also watch past episodes of franciscan university presents or request the handout by emailing us at presents franciscan.edu or reach us by phone for today's handout by calling 800-783-6447 that's 800-783-6447 [Music] you

Channel: Franciscan University of Steubenville

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Keywords: Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio, Catholic, college, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville (College / University), Franciscan University Presents, Presents, EWTN, Fr. Dave Pivonka TOR, Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Bob Schuchts, Be Transformed: The Healing Power of the Sacraments, sacraments, healing

Id: FWzFl0RyJvM

Length: 58min 34sec (3514 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 02 2022