The Gay Revolution - Durbin, White, & Brown

what's up guys this is Jeff deran with apologia TV and apologia Studios what you're about to watch is an interview that I just did with Dr James White and Dr Michael Brown on the scotus decision to denigrate marriage I want to thank all of our apologia all access members for their participation you made this content possible and so I want to thank you very much uh for all that you're doing to partner with us as a Ministry apology all access members uh get the weekly television show The after show which is an hourlong television show you also get uh the weekly podcast you get all the additional content we're doing and you also get to participate in the apologia academy uh which is coming very soon uh so I want to thank you again and encourage you guys to all participate uh with us in Ministry at apologia radio.com that's where you go to sign up for the all access and now here's the interview and all 50 state samex couples can now as of today in this lengthy opinion June 2 2015 gay marriag is now legal across the United States because of this 5 to four opinion Martha this is a huge moment uh for people in favor of same-sex marriage Shannon you can hear them uh their voices are being [Music] heard God Bless America I'm think I'm good on my levels now let's do our sound check here here we go [Music] all right brothers so here we are after the ruling from the Supreme Court gay marriage is now a thing a legal thing and um I wanted to bring you Dr White and Dr Brown together to discuss this issue because the two of you specifically have been sounding the alarm about this issue for a very long time as a Christian man can you point to a single public utterance by Jesus Christ about gay people or about a gay lifestyle Matthew 19 he says marriage is God intended it is the union of one man and one woman for Life The Tipping Point my friends has come and it's gone we're we are we're pasted Pastor said I don't want to get involved in politics okay how about just preaching the word and saying with with love adulterous practices sin and any sex outside of wedlock is sin and homosexual practices and God has a better way why not say that the inertia left by generations of Christians teaching on morality and ethics it's been wipe from the minds of the populace it's been replaced by a a foodism of subjective morality Leviticus 18 is quite explicit for a man to lie with a man is contrary to what God intended this is a worldview issue and we're going to have to decide what our ultimate authorities are it is not marriage when when they Jo together I don't think that I took you seriously as seriously as I should have I took you seriously but not as seriously as I should have I'm not sure that I took it as seriously uh as as I don't know if I took myself all that seriously I mean we we saw it coming but until it happens and until you really see the ramifications in reality you're you're always there was even a part of me that hoped there was about I was about 90% 10% on the decision itself I hoped that maybe would be a extension of Grace a a keeping uh of of Justice Kennedy from you know jumping off the postmodern Cliff uh you know so there's always that hope that you have uh but you know reality is reality and that's what we have to deal with now and um as a result I think we really need to think through the ramifications and I think some people are starting to do so on a level they hadn't done before in that respect the the bad news is the good news people are finally w up I say that I felt like an umbrella salesman in the desert but I knew a storm was coming and soon soon enough people are going to have to listen listen my wife Nancy is utterly unimpressed by anything I ever do but the other day she said to me you need to write an article talking about all the things that you told us were going to happen that that have happened so even my own bride recognized that I found as far back as 1989 in one of my books that I made reference to courts recogn izing homosexual quote marriages 1989 1993 one of my books I talk about gay activist curriculum in the schools and I posted that on Facebook the other day and people were flipping out I can't believe it I said hey that's over 20 years old but it wasn't until 2004 that I really began to realize that this truly had become the principal threat to freedom of religion speech and conscience Alan Sears and Craig Austin wrote a book about the homosexual agenda and in that they talked about this as the principal threat to freedom of religion 2007 Professor Robert gagnot a new testament scholar talked about what was coming if if Enda the Employment non-discrimination Act included uh issues having to do with sexual orientation and gender identity and he said it's going to lead to this this this it will lead to the full acceptance of homosexual quote marriage by the Supreme Court so in that respect yeah part of me was hoping that something would would not go in this direction but the other part of me said it's going to happen right now sooner or later barring Divine Awakening and Great Awakening in our country when I began to get involved with this heavily uh 11 years ago I looked at it and thought it's too late in the natural it's too late it's gone too far in the culture it's gone too far in the media too far in the schools too far in the courts too far in business World pop culture it's gone too far but that doesn't mean that's the end of the story uh and we may have different eschatologies but unless the Lord returns in our lifetimes or in the next few years this is just the beginning of a much more uh longer multigenerational battle over the meaning of marriage and sexuality here in our country you know on one level we're we're now post we're immediately post roie Wade I mean okay you know roie Wade's been the quote unquote law of the land now for many many years uh what did we just give up um in reality most Christians had no earthly idea or even much passion about abortion until roie Wade happened right um and so I I see parallels there but I also see a difference and and that is in this situation we have a world now that you know America was not a a fully secularized Nation when roie Wade took place right it is now and when we look at especially the younger generation that really is where I am deeply concerned because what we're seeing in the speed of this revolution it's interesting we can sit here and talk about the reasons for it and we can give reasons for it biblically I don't know how non-Christian conservatives can understand what's going on here because uh there really isn't an explanation in a secular worldview for the the rapidity with which Millennials have grabbed hold of a a radically altered world viw that has massive implications as to how they view everything including the role of government and freedom of religion and speech and everything else we can look at the scriptures and we a lot of people didn't see it coming um and have been forced to Think Through the worldview implications of it but we can give a very strong biblical explanation as to what's happening here and I think um I think what I what I've been focusing upon since uh June 26th which I I'll be able to remember that because my wedding anniversary is June 25th so I just missed I was very very thankful for that but but I I will what I've been really thinking about is Jesus's Words which of course i' I've been telling people for a long time if you get an opportunity to talk about this do something positive give Jesus's positive words in Matthew chapter 19: 4-6 memorize it be ready to explain it be ready to make application of it but there's one particular aspect of it that has always struck me and now it's striking me with with much more weight and that is when Jesus begins not only does he say have you not read and I've got a whole sermon that just stops right there basically because the Millennials do not have a word from God because of the next phrase if you look at in the original language that the one who created the Creator that's where it starts in Jesus's own words now he shared a worldview with the uh with the Jews to whom he was speaking and it included a Creator that's where the disconnect is now taking place because once this could never have happened this could never have happened without Darwinism it could not have happened without a thoroughly secular world view and this generation is the first thoroughly secularized generation that that we have faced they don't have a Creator and when you don't have a Creator you will fill that vacuum with little mini creators and see this is where this is where this decision and Bruce Jenner come together because what you've got now is we've all become our own Creator uh Bruce Jenner gets to create his own reality in Rebellion against the reality that God himself has created and when it comes to marriage if you don't have a Creator and you each are your own Creator then what is the reason that you do not uh decree uh that this kind of marriage will take place and this will be followed very very quickly by polygamy uh taking place uh we literally have this new focus upon the autonomy of the human being as Creator and as Christians we know where this comes from we know Romans 1 we know we know where this is coming from but the world must be looking at and going what on Earth is happening uh but we have have a clear understanding of where it's coming from and that that brings me to I think an interesting point and that's precisely what I've been laying ing on preaching in church about this specific issue preparing the church to to be a Godly witness for the gospel in light of all that's gone on what I what I've been saying is our culture has adopted a Neo darwinian micr mutation macroevolutionary worldview that's where we're at we have gone to the very core of all of life no Creator there's no God that we are all just protoplasm and a purposeless universe bobbing along the surface of the cosmos that's our that is that's what we are in this world World um there is no ultimate a there is no there is no justice ahead of us it's sky above us only and so we go to the very core of what all of that means in life so no Creator it means no special creation so Jesus statement in Matthew 19 is really meaningless there's no special creation there's no gender identities no distinctions there is no harmonious relationship like you say often Dr White it's it's mirror images now being married together so what are we doing we're taking out creator special creation gender identities we're taking out harmonious sexual relationships and we're going to the very core in our culture of what God says in the beginning in the image of God he created them and he tells them be fruitful and multiply our culture says no to God no to gender distinctions no to what you call marriage no to your blueprint for all of society and if we have kids and we don't want them kill them and that's that's what we're facing is cutting out the very blueprint of society yeah if if if you think back to Genesis 1 the foundation of all foundations is God exists and then the next Foundation of all foundations is that God created the universe and then when you zero in on that the the high point of that is that God created Humanity in his own image and that he said that they're male and female and he brings the two together as one so if you think of the larger rejections in our society the the vociferous attack on the existence of God it's no coincidence that marriage has been redefined at the same time that we're having the rise of new Atheism in our culture which is not just simply saying hey we just don't see evidence for a god it's a hostile attack on the god of the Bible it doesn't surprise me at all that on our very active as Dr Brown Facebook page we're getting flooded with the most ugly profane vile attacks you could have imagine either on us as individuals or on the god of the Bible and almost every one of them the person has the gay colors on their on their Facebook icon very interesting so the rejection of the existence of God the extreme hostile rejection of anything that would challenge darwinian Evolution then the the attack on on human beings created in the image of God the attack on gender distinctions the attack on marriage is the foundation so it it's all the foundations that are being attacked it's it's almost like you ever have little kids talking and they don't think the parent or the teacher can really hear and they start telling you what they really feel you know you kind of eavesdropping and oh that's how they really feel it's almost like people now feel that this this supposed Christian oppression that they've been under this this rule of God this imaginary American theocracy that they've been fighting against they've Now cast It Off and they can speak freely about how they really feel and the hostility the anger whether it's out of hurt whether it's out of rebellion both different manifestations of it it's it is this overt rejection saying like Psalm 2 we don't want the Lord and his anointed to rule over us that's ultimately the root of it of course the the good news is that Revival is going to bring God front and center but we've done the same thing in the church we don't start preaching the gospel the way Paul did in Romans talking about the wrath of God and Universal sinfulness before we get to justification by faith we begin with you're having a rough life Jesus understands and wants to make you happy if you give him your guilt he'll fulfill your dreams so we start with self the same way if we can go back to starting with God in the church then there's a chance we can get the society to start looking to God first I've I'm not sure why I don't hear anyone else talking about this but me so I'm going to throw throw it out here and see if I'm just weird but I'm really seeing the Fulfillment of a principle that is laid down in scripture um where if you are presented with the truth and you refuse to love the truth then God can justly cause you to love a Lie 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 and I really see that happening you know we ask why are these people so passionate about something that if they were if they would just sit back and use their god-given capacity to think things through they would see this is tremendously negative to them I mean the the end result has to be the culture of death the end result has to be a a culture that is lacking in freedom and liberty and and all these things and yet it seems that people are absolutely in love embrace it embracing it and they're changing their Facebook avatars and they're willing to give money and time and everything else and we go whence cometh this and all I can say is it seems that this is clear evidence of the Judgment of God I cannot see any other way of explaining it because it is it is against the self-interests of these people I mean don't they don't they realize that if you aren't having children that your culture will eventually disappear they don't look to the Future they don't they don't consider these things and so so it it seems to me that there has been so much truth available for so long in our culture that you first had a movement toward apathy and now you have outright rejection and therefore you're going to love something and what you're going end up loving is a lie and the LIE is that we are ugly bags of mostly water that were biochemicals fizzing around uh um and why would anyone ever want to embrace that or find anything POS POS in that and yet that's exactly what's happening and it can only be and I agree with you Dr White the Judgment of God falling on a people I I absolutely agree with you you know what's interesting Dr Brown Dr White um I think that if you listen to the president's address after this ruling came down when he spoke about it he even offered um some Solace to everybody that's fought in this fight um by saying that the really encouraging thing here essentially was that this almost happened overnight I know change for many of our LGBT brothers and sisters must have seemed so slow for so long but compared to so many other issues America's shift has been so quick and here's what I said this week on our radio program I said he knows exactly what he's talking about because in terms of of the time of the light of the gospel and the truth of God in this culture specifically in the west that it took essentially a generation and and Dr Brown this is where I wanted you to to to address something a lot of people don't know this because maybe not everyone's read your book I have and in your book Dr Brown you talk about Stonewall in and how a lot of this goes back to the initial Stonewall riots the president heralded the beauty of that movement in his inaugural address this last term and a lot of people don't realize that that this movement and its aggressive nature its disciplined nature its consistent nature this movement began at Stonewall and it really began to flourish after that you talk about that because you begin your book with the common claim there is no gay agenda there is no gay gay agenda but then you show Stonewall can you talk about that yeah certainly the the denial of the gay agenda is is part of the agenda and basically every movement you have conservative agenda liberal agenda feminist agenda uh ecologist agenda everybody has an agenda except homos sexual activists with all their organizations with all their funding with all their planning with all their strategies with all their goals somehow they don't have an agenda so what you can look at is for years and years and years there have been stated goals from different groups expressing different things that they were after and and these things have unfolded one after another in our in our country we can go back and into the 50s with certain individual gay activists who were protesting being fired from a job or things like that but it's really in in the midst of the counterculture revolution of the 60s that this arises it's no coincidence this is 1969 the same year as Woodstock it's no coincidence that this is in the the the decade of great turmoil with sex drugs rock and roll the anti-war protests tremendous social upheaval along with positive things like the Civil Rights Movement so this was uh a a a violent attack on police there had been a bursting of emotion some actually say it tied in with the death of Judy Garland who was kind of an icon in gay circles and many of the men were more emotionally distraught I've read that in in in gay histories of the movement but basically it came to the point of saying enough is enough and when they fought back violently against cops I mean cops were in fear for their lives think of that being commemorated and celebrated think of some horrific Riot that's taken place in recent months being you know the Baltimore riots say now commemorated and celebrated as a great moment in civil rights history it's an absolute travesty but our president did talk about from senica women's rights to Selma civil rights to Stonewall gay rights the people declare today that the most evident of truths that all of us are created equal is the star that guides us still just as it gu Ed our forbears through senica Falls and Selma and Stonewall so you can actually see there was the initial where here where queer get used to it uh in your face kind of attack and that was the tactic that was used it was seen that that was a failing tactic that the in-your-face marching down the street naked in the gay parades and saying God is gay and we want your boys and some of these slogans were were counterproductive and there's a book written uh it's so funny gay activists all said we never heard of it we never read that book it was a bestseller for some reason in Village Voice and other uh Cutting Edge gay-friendly Publications were praising the book A book came out in the late 80s by by Kirk and Madden two gay sociologist Harvard trained and it was called after the ball how America Will Conquer its fear and hatred of gays in the 90s and it laid out there the plan of attack so on the heels of the counterculture Revolution on the heels of the attack on morality and family and sexuality after all it's 1960 that the birth control pill comes out so now you have sex for recreation separated from sex from procreation that's right at the beginning of the 60s and all these things unfolding now you have these strategist basically saying okay what we have to do is is instantly it has to be a gut level reaction the moment that you hear someone opposing our agenda our Viewpoint that person in your mind has to immediately become like the Nazis or the k Clan or some Backwoods preacher it's almost like you push a button they say that we will have a sustained attack of propaganda coming through the media so that if your average American thinks that that all homosexuals are child Predators we will make all homosexuals like the sweetest nicest neighbors next door in a stable monogamous relationship even if that's an exaggeration One Way well we were being lied about the other way so so we'll swing back we'll pick these numbers you know the 10% 10% of the population is gay and on and on and here's how we'll have our impact though we will be the victims those who oppose us will be the victimizers when you look at the goals that they lay out in the book you think these aren't goals this is normal life that's how stunningly successful it was and they say that what they wrote In the book is just the fruit of numerous gay activist organizations and leaders coming together and brainstorming in their war room and they came they basically put together their strategies this didn't happen in a vacuum it doesn't mean that every homosexual man or woman in America has an agenda or a plan it means that you have lots of activists out there who are say in Hollywood who are writing certain scripts a few years ago uh I had seen part of an X-Men movie while while in Flight I hadn't seen the others and I thought how open can you be about about the mutants they're gays and mean that that's the whole message there mutant is a colde word for gay so I wrote an article I went went through looked at different scripts the different backgrounds uh who was involved the producers the actors and I wrote an article called mutant uh uh as a code word for gay in the X-Men and gay websites ridiculed me and said we all knew this we all knew this all along it's in the cartoons you're just finding this out buddy Brian Singer when he asked me to Play Magneto was very clear about he said you're a gay man in uh you know what it's like for society to point the finger at you and and to pass laws which inhibit your behavior and and and your happiness that's exactly what is at the heart of of X-Men and Marvel who published the comics on which their based agree that's what X-Men is it's not just entertainment it's not just special effects it's not just spectacle it's actually about the real world I I especially I think we need to also address how uh going forward now I know uh Michael I've already been uh talking about your upcoming book on Surviving the gay Revolution and uh uh Dr mohler's putting out a book on the same subject around the same time I think so uh there are going to be some some good books that are going to come out and we're going to have some guidance there but the reality is we're going to be seeing a lot of uh what I would simply call General apostasy on this subject there's going to be a lot of people go this is not a hill to die on uh if we want to remain relevant to the culture uh then we need to you know if we want to be friendly and affirming I mean these are all such wonderful words um then we we need to find a way to accommodate this Theology and as Michael knows uh there are there I neither one of us think could keep up with the flood of books that are coming out right now uh on on the subject of providing the mechanism and the means that churches will use uh to be able to say well you know we've discovered that there's another way of reading these texts you know there's another way of interpreting the Bible and and so we really have discovered we were a little bit too you know in the past we we've we've become enlightened basically and so you have you know a letter to my church and and you have uh torn and of course you have Matthew Vine's book and and uh you know anything coming out from brownson so on so forth and and so they can point to that and say see here's material that provides a basis for us to say that we've been misreading these things and the churches that remain firm the only way they're going to be able to do that meaningfully now there's going to be some churches that will remain firm simply because they don't have the right reasons already they there's they've got a strong bigoted feeling and there is that element of things out there uh we have someone uh in our own area that uh recently became well known for uh blasting away along those lines in in in very uh unbiblical and unloving fashion but um if a church is going to remain firm on a Biblical basis then we're going to have to respond to those things we're going to have to know where the errors in this argumentation is on a level that we've never probably even publicly discussed before right right I know in my generation we grew up we never talked about these things it wasn't it wasn't an appropriate thing to talk about in church you don't talk about sex you don't talk about homosexuality and you know your your parents say Well they're you know homosexuals and then maybe when you get home they might tell you really quickly sort of an embarrassed way uh those days are passed um and unfortunately we have to be very clear in addressing these issues and to do that is is going to require a lot of a lot of churches to do some soul searching as to how much they really believe the Bible and how consistent they are in their ex Jesus uh because the only reason to continue holding to a firm position is if you believe Sola scriptura you believe TOA scriptura and you recognize that this is in fact a gospel issue and that uh well I preached on her Hebrews 13:4 on Sunday and it's very clear that uh the scriptures teach that the uh that marriage is to be held uh in Honor by all and that the the Coan which is fascinating that half of the term arson AAS uh ends up being uh there in that term the marriage bed is undefiled and then the very next word after undefiled is porah POR pornus those who are fornicators and adulterers God will judge and will the church be faithful in communicating the fact that there will be a judgment upon sexual sin and upon what basis yes see and that's what I wanted to get to and I really wanted the two of you to speak to this Dr Brown the reason why I asked you that question leading in was really to lead into this and you going right where I was hoping we would go in this discussion the people who identify as LGBT uh either either they're living the lifestyle or they're advocates for okay they have had a consistent disciplined approach to taking over culture to taking over the minds and hearts of the people in the in in in the West on this particular issue they had they and let's be honest they were very successful in in not completely but they were very successful in being able to take a nation and its moral Heritage and flipping it on its head within a generation essentially on on this specific issue now they were disciplined my fear guys my fear is that the way largely the Christian church is reacting to this is not in a way that has the same level of commitment and discipline and sacrifice that they have they have very big checkbooks they're committed to this way of life and convincing the world around and my fear is that we don't know how to respond to this we we think that love for neighbor is saying nothing I I I I we I been criticized in the last week and a half for the sermons uh for the radio shows for even saying anything at all people are saying things like you know Jee that's just the wrong approach you really need to take these people out to a cup of coffee like that's the approach and my my answer is I don't have enough money to buy cups of coffee for all these people I the role of the church is to speak prophetically into the culture now listen I understand that we don't get to solve every issue in a Facebook chat box I understand that and that's not always the best way of communication but the point is is that those who hold to this way of life are using every means at their disposal to communicate their worldview and it's a question of not whether somebody's going to adopt a worldview but which worldview and my fear is is that as a as a church we're not in a place where we've abandoned our love for self and love for comfort and and and that's what I want to address how do we rightly approach this guys do we profess prophetically speak to the culture and say things like God will judge those who do these things uh yeah let me answer that on on several levels uh Joe Dallas has pointed out who himself came out of homosexuality bisexuality that when the AIDS epidemic happened that the homosexual Community was in Terror was was uh obviously wondering what is going on what's Happening to us and when churches began proclaiming this is the Judgment of God that Joe Dallas who's absolutely step for step uh on the right side of these issues that the church me re missed a great opportunity to reach out to people who were who were hurting and devastated right then and that the pronouncements coming the way they came and with the tone that they came rather than than having any positive effect on on those men ultimately confirmed to them all the more that God hated them and the church hated them so on the one hand I'm 100% with with you saying America is under Divine judgment in many ways I'm 100% with you in saying that we're reaping what we've sown and that this is just another step and and another part of our moral and spiritual Decline and it will have all kinds of detrimental effects on on families as well and on the institution of marriage as well I would rather Focus first on judgment beginning with the house of God that we must get our own acts together that we must repent of our sin look this happened on our watch if if there had not been no fault heterosexual divorce in the church if there had not been rampant porography in the church if there had not been all the scandals with our leaders in the church if there had not been such a compromise of the Gospel in the church I don't think the culture as a whole would be in the state that it's in so I would first start with judgment begins with the house of God I do believe that God is even using these things to wake us up right now as unpleasant as they may be cuz let remember there was not a master conspirator head homosexual orchestrating aspects of of homosexual activism rather it was people in various Strat of society in the education realm in the media realm in politics and they were they they were homosexual or friends of you know straight allies and they said we're going to fight for these things so all of them in their different spheres fought if we do the same on our own if we begin to repent if we begin to cry out if we become unashamed of the Gospel if we begin to preach Holiness if we begin to preach on the wrath of God as well as on the love of God so now bring these larger subjects to society and yes warn holistically about the coming wrath and and and the Eternal sentence of punishment and the mercy of God that's extended and preached the cross again I believe we can have Awakening at the same time I've operated under the philosophy of reach out and resist for 11 years now reach out to the people with compassion resist the agenda with courage so every opport opportunity in that respect to sit down with someone face to face and to reach out to them in love and to be a neighbor to them and to introduce them to Jesus I'm going to do my best to do that and my emphasis is going to be that sin is destructive that sin separates us from God as opposed to you're the worst sinner in the world because you're attracted to the same sex and unfortunately sometimes I see that that those that do want to speak out don't know how to speak out and they think the best thing they can do is be dogmatic and nasty and quote Leviticus 18:22 10 times over and that so we got to do better than that as well I think there's a very very important distinction that has to be made and a lot of people aren't making it and and it disturbs me there is all the world of difference between an individual who experiences same sex attraction maybe is involved in the lifestyle uh doesn't want it um wants out of it or a person who's who already names the name of Christ and who recognizes that same-sex attraction is fundamentally disordered that it's dishonoring to God and they they come to the church and they say I want to be pure I want to live under the lordship of Christ uh will will you stand by me and let's just be honest uh there there aren't a lot of churches that would feel overly comfortable in that situation if someone came to them in that situation and said this is what I experience uh will you help to keep me accountable I want to I want to be celibate I know this is dishonoring to God and and there's all the world of difference between that person and the person that comes to the church and says I experienced same seex attraction God made me this way this is a good thing and you must change your beliefs so that you not only affirm me that's not enough you must celebrate uh you must call this Good you must uh you must abandon and and repent of all of the years where you did not celebrate those who came before me there is a Grand Canyon of difference between those people and I think where a lot of the struggle is taking place is that for many many people making that distinction and seeing how to respond differently to those two different groups is very very difficult to do and a lot of evangelicals struggle on that I I see the exact same thing for example in dealing with Islam they there's a world of difference between uh the Muslims that I debate uh who would call me a friend uh who who would never want to kill me and the commander of Isis I mean if you can't tell the difference between those two but sometimes for some reason um some people don't want to be able to make those distinctions they refuse to make those distinctions and if they won't make it in that area they're certainly not going to make it in the area where it comes to homosexuality and they're just going to throw everybody in the same same thing and that's where you get the unloving responses you get the U the nastiness that uh that definitely is out there as people are pushed uh because they don't recognize that there are different people at different levels and it's been said over and over again that one of the reasons that this movement has succeeded of late is that more and more people have come to know homosexuals uh if you just get to know them then you'd realize that well you know there's really nothing wrong with this etc etc uh there's an element of Truth to that in the sense that that's why it has had some of its success but what's frightening is for many Christians yeah getting to find out that the really nice guy at Starbucks that you've been getting your coffee from every morning in the Drive-Thru is actually gay why should that change your view of homosexuality it shows that the foundation that you have for your morality is not a Biblical Foundation the first place we're all Sinners right I mean did you think that that guy was was you know perfectly sin sinless in any other area of life it it doesn't make any sense so the the lack of having a solid foundation is really what is leading to I think a lot of Christians struggling to make the appropriate distinctions because we do need to recognize some of these people are false teachers who are specifically attempting to overthrow the the faith of the Saints that's right and as such uh they they need to be resisted and resisted appropriately and it's finding that appropriate balance uh that is uh a real major challenge for us today I've been trying to encourage the church that God has called me to care for and to Shepherd that look we have to have a humble boldness on this issue and that is recognizing first and foremost that it's the grace of God that separates us from anybody in terms of Salvation it's God's grace that has brought us to where we're at but there's also a boldness because this is a very truth of God Paul says that those who practice such things will inherit the kingdom of God and so there has to be a humility recognizing that look it's not any one particular sin that sends us to hell like it's it's just because this one thing and God wants you to clean up for in this area then you're good with Jesus no it's all of us it's our whole life it's our whole way of thinking everything is in Rebellion against God and he's a holy God so what separates us from all of the world whether it's the heterosexual adulterer or the person who identifies as LGBT what listen we're all Sinners and it's God's grace that separates all of us in in that sense but there's a boldness because there's the necessity that we understand that it is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation so what I try when I'm trying to communicate is that listen we don't win those who identify with the homosexual Community by withholding the gospel from them and like Dr Brown like you mentioned the clear communication of the wrath of God against sin is where the gospel begins that's what that's where the call the repentance comes in and so there has to be a humble boldness and I think that that has to be something we consider as a church I think it's very important for us to make sure that we communicate to the people who identify with this community that listen the gospel is not Jesus wants you to be a straight person and so if you can make yourself straight then he'll accept you one day the gospel is recognition of my sin before a holy God you you've mentioned many times Dr White I think it was when in your five hour response to Matthew Vines which was which I highly encourage that we are all broken sexually and we need to to communicate listen this is an aspect of your life that is in opposition to God an aspect it is not the identification of you um you need to turn from sin against a holy God to to come and embrace Christ to fall on him to trust in him and his work and I think that that needs to be communicated by us as Christians that it is not simply that God is is calling you to fix yourself up polish yourself up and not be gay and then he'll accept you it's repentance from sin so I think that's important Dr Brown yeah the other thing is if I'm sharing the gospel with someone who is say an alcoholic or a guy who's living with his girlfriend I don't focus on the fact well you're living with your girl girlfriend or you're you're drunk all the time I focus on the fact that that person is alienated from God now perhaps they'll they'll recognize because of specific things they're doing that they're not right with God they may be more quick to acknowledge it than to someone who outwardly seems to be more clean but but the fact is I'm not focusing on the fact okay you've got to give up alcohol or you've got to stop sleeping with this woman and and then you can be saved is if you clean up your life first and then somehow Merit salvation so sometimes when we're talking to someone that we realize either they say it or we we we we recognize it that this person identifies as gay or lesbian we make that the focus well that I'm not going to bring that up if they don't bring it up that that's not my focus my focus is much larger and much deeper than that now along the way uh the issue of repentance specifically is going to come up and either God's going to deal with them specifically or we'll bring the things up specifically but the issue is people coming into right relationship with God and look when when when Dr White mentioned you know the guy at Starbucks and he's a nice guy well look I I can introduce you to Rabbi friends of mine Orthodox Jews who have written lengthy treatises against my five volume series on answering Jewish objections to Jesus and humanly speaking they're some of the finest people I know if I tell them this is just between the two of us I know it'll be kept there they're caring people they're family oriented people uh from their own Viewpoint they earnestly want to please God and would be terrified of doing anything to disobey him they talk about loving God and things like that I'm sure Dr White's met Muslims like that for our culture which is so emotion-based rather than word-based for so much of the church which is emotion-based rather than word-based we can give a hundred scriptures they say but but Bobby and Billy are such nice people and and you realize that's the bigger problem it's it's scriptural illiteracy it's unfamiliarity with God it's lack of intimacy with him and his word and if we if we can fix the deeper problems we've got to do that we can't just look at the symptoms we've got to repent of the deeper issues in the Church of America today that's the only hope of the Turning of the nation the other thing though that's important to remember is that this culture that that denies the importance of gender or even even the distinctions in gender that makes marriage just so completely malleable that it could be fundamentally Define as Dr White said it's it's not one that is given to real reproduction and there's no way that homosexual couples are going to have the numbers of kids that they're going to bring up the way heterosexual couples are there's no possibility that those that are continually making gender into a meaningless thing are going to have the same male female relations with families that is going to have over a period of time so that means that if we can give ourselves to being Godly it's one of the thesis in my book outlasting the gay Revolution that gay activism has within itself the seeds of self-destruction and that God's ways are the lasting ways just like with roie Wade and the pro-abortion crowd that they're going to have less children and be less family oriented than we're going to be that we can ultimately be the last man standing if we can get our act together and at the same time expose the bankruptcy of those that oppose God in his ways of course in the process we keep sending our children off to be trained by Caesar that sort of undoes uh do the the child Advantage thing we have there uh but uh I do want to emphasize that when when Michael was talking about in witnessing to someone you don't focus upon that particular sin the problem with many homosexuals however and what makes homosexuality such a well I think it's the reason that that Paul used it as an example in Romans 1 is when you have someone who has been given over to identifying the entirety of their self by that very thing I I mean how often is it uh let's let's use it let's use an example from 1 Corinthians 6 one of the other sins that's mentioned there is swindlers yeah I've never met anyone in my life who self-identified who who found their very worth and their their reason for getting up in the morning to be a swindler okay you know I'm I am just the world's greatest swindler you know and and so I think we do need to recognize that in in Romans 1 there is a there is an element of Biblical teaching that this is such a a fundamental part of what it means to be human that God has made us and and there has been this twistedness there that it's it's a very difficult field to try to it's obviously as as Paul himself says such were some of you that's the great uh word of hope uh that of course entire state legislator are trying to banish uh from our land but that is the word of Hope and therefore it's not impossibility but we need to recognize um I don't know of any uh swindler Christian movements I don't I don't know if anybody's trying to get the church to accept this as a good thing and for the record we would be equally opposed to that movement well as we are this exactly it's exactly true but but you know I I think there is I think there is something to keep in mind there that again the distinction between a person in whom the holy spirit is working who desires to not experience the same sex attraction you know when I've talked with those folks they don't call themselves homosexuals because they don't want to be identified by a a sinful inclination but when a person gives into that and says this actually defines me um that is a that is a a tremendous a tremendously frightening thing uh to to see happen in a human being's life that's a good point the if there were a movement in society that was celebrating and heralding the beauty of the adulterous lifestyle I'm an adulterous Christian there I think isn't that called television I think yeah that's right inde there are websites that are that are built for the specific purpose of adultery those sorts of things but here's the point listen and people need to hear this from us as Christian ministers that look it it's it's because this has been planted on us that we are responding as a Christian Church in the way that we are because it is being accepted because it's being it's being um preached as a good and beautiful holy thing that we have to respond and if it were a movement that was identifying as any particular sin saying this is good for us as a society let's Embrace this and you're a bigot if you don't we would be equally against any of those show and I'll say this uh um I I I I've sat down in front of group settings before where where the issue of homosexuality has come up and this is where unbelievers in the room and everything else and I I I can distinctly remember um somebody identifying as homosexual but somebody over here claiming to be Christian but was in a sexual relationship outside of marriage I didn't even address the homosexual person I address the person who was professing to be a Christian who is living outside of the context of marriage and I condemned that before I even went over here to the person who was not a Christian in practicing homosexuality see the the issue is sin and as as Christian ministers it's our call to speak the truth to speak it in love and love does the hard thing it's not what our culture says that it is it's an emotional thing it's it's just about feelings love is an action love is patient love is kind love believes all things hopes all things Love Never Fails love does what is necessary to reach the other love gives of itself to the other and I think it's important for us to make sure that we are communicating to the world around us as Christians all right guys so just quickly um I'll give you some bursts okay and you guys respond because these are the things that as a church we you said we need to be prepared we need to know the text here's a couple bursts um you guys are being cafeteria Christians you are picking and choosing because I'm sure you probably ate bacon and I'm sure you probably eat shrimp and I'm sure you have mixed fibers in in your clothing and and and you just you just have a secret hatred you to in your hearts for the homosexual because you obviously um are perfectly fine disobeying the levitical laws regarding the Holiness code but you just love to harp on homosexuality why is that well actually I don't eat bacon and some of those other Foods number one and number two uh this is not something I went asking for uh I didn't I didn't ask to have Bruce Jenner as as a woman on on uh magazine covers I didn't ask for the Supreme Court to make this ruling that affects the whole country I didn't ask for for Tylenol to have a commercial when did you first fight to be considered a family when you fell in love when you got married when you had kids family isn't defined by who you love but how Tylenol but in point of fact I read the Bible consistently from beginning to end there's not a single text anywhere in the Bible saying a single positive word about homosexual practice and the contrary every single reference to homosexual practice in the Old Testament and the New Testament categorically condemns it in very very strong terms as for the levitical laws it's very simple God gave certain laws to Israel to keep them separate from the Nations like the dietary laws like not mixing two seeds in a in a field or two fibers in clothing there are other laws that God gave Israel that were based on universal moral principles for example don't murder was a universal moral principle for all people you say how can you distinguish the laws that were just for Israel to keep them separate from the universal moral principles easy the Bible tells us it either judges the Nations for these same things in other words God says to Israel and the Nations if you do this I'll judge you that's the case with homosexual practice read Leviticus 18 from beginning to end it's the same with incestuous practice and bestiality and other things that are listed there God will judge All Nations for those things if it's wrong for the pagans it's wrong for the follower of Jesus also if it's not explicitly stated in the Old Testament it will be then reiterated in the New Testament that this is for all people so if we see something that the Old Testament says as a universal moral principle or we see it restated as a Prohibition in the New Testament we know it's for us today all we're doing is reading the Bible consistently whenever anybody says to me uh you're picking and choosing and they do the westwing thing I like your show I like how you call uality an Abomination I don't say homosexuality is an Abomination Mr President the Bible does yes it does Leviticus 1822 chapter and verse I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 she's a Georgetown sophomore speaks fluent Italian always cleared the table when it was her turn what would a good price for her be while thinking about that can I ask another my chief of staff Leo McGary insist on working on the Sabbath Exodus 352 clearly says he should be put to death am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police here's one that's really important cuz we've got a lot of sports fans in this town touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean Leviticus 11:7 if they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football can Notre Dame can West Point does the whole town really have to be together to Stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads think about those questions would you one last thing well you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tit Club in this building when the president stands nobody sits I automatically know this is a person who has not seriously dealt with that text of scripture because if you go to Leviticus 18 and following uh they never talk about the fact that's also where you find such texts as you're to rise up before the grayheadedgamer is but they've I've never encountered a person who and I know they're out there but I haven't run into them who actually had Fairly read those texts and hence made that AR that that argument because they if they do read Leviticus 18 through 21 or so they're going to realize you know there's a lot of really important stuff in here and in fact at the end of one verse just sort of in passing is you shall love your neighbor as yourself which Jesus then said is the second greatest commandment um and so any serious analysis of those text will cause you to go I need to be careful how I handle this so on when people do that I actually have to fight the the the Temptation uh to to go into Bible scholar mode and and say you don't have a clue what you're talking about do you uh because because in general they don't but they've gotten away with it because the vast majority of Christians may have read that section one time that one time they did Through the Bible that's right and actually survived uh uh you know Leviticus without giving up during the leprosy section you know uh that one time uh they they said okay and they don't really understand it and they don't really see its relevance all right Dr Brown um we just want to say how grateful we are that you uh joined us today I know you have such a busy schedule and uh um just want to pray for your ministry and ask people to to get a copy of um a queer thing happened to America um one of I think the most important books written on this subject and so we're grateful for you Dr Brown and just pray God continues to bless your ministry thanks I appreciate what you're doing always great to team up with my dear friend Dr White and listen I'm grieved but I'm not in the least bit discouraged we felt things were going in this direction we felt this was this day was coming but but but I also feel that there's another chapter yet to be written and that's a chapter of Awakening in the midst of the darkness so so let's stay the course let's repent of our sins let's pray all the more and let's expect God to do amazing things but thanks my joy to be with you thank you very much Dr BR so I want to continue to address the most common objections to sort of prepare other believers with the proper argumentation and scripture references and those sorts of things so the common things social media arguments people should be able to love anybody they want it it's none of my business as a Christian who somebody else loves love should win well yes yes love love does win uh when it's defined the way God defines love and that the very first thought in the mind of any Christian when this you know what this illustrates is how we are schizophrenic as Christians we have our secular world and we have our Rel religious world yeah because if we were in our religious world and someone said you should be able to love whoever you want we would automatically go well wait a minute God defines love he defined love especially on the cross of Calvary love is self-sacrificial we don't get to Define that we didn't we can't say to God well you should have come up with another way of showing your love for us other than the cross it it would be second nature to people but transition them out of their religious world into their everyday world and and it's like oh well yeah I don't want to tell anybody they don't have rights and freedoms and stuff like that and it shows how we are inconsistent and we do not have a single worldview but we have a a a schizophrenic worldview and so when someone says I should be able to love whoever I want uh the Christian response is well the very first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and when you do then you're going to love what he loves and he's told us what is true and honest just and pure and lovely and what we should love and so the issue is they're claiming a freedom that as creatures they have not been given by God God made us and he knows what we should love and what we should hate and what we if we love what he would have us to love that results in life if we choose to love what he would have us to hate that results in death there is the distinction and and also the inconsistency of our president uh speaking after the judgments been made and talking specifically about this do white saying you know people loving whoever they want to love it's it's the same same love and right I mean that's that's the Mantra of the culture but we're not consistent with that and neither is the president because what about the Pedas what about I brought it up uh during my sermon two weeks ago what about Miss D Atkinson in California a nice uh California woman who uh 32 years old hooked up with her biological son 16 years old and was having a sexual relationship with him she's picked up she's arrested she's caught doing what she was doing both her and her biological son her argument is I have genetic attraction disorder you don't understand your honor I Was Born This Way oh yeah and but but but what about Misty Atkinson does she get to love who whoever she wants how about the guy who after the ruling in Montana went to go and apply for a second uh license for a second wife well I don't think there's any way to escape that but yes and and that that unfortunately in our society then what you get is oh you're talking the slippery slope and all the rest of the stuff there is no slope anymore we jumped off the cliff a long time ago right uh there isn't any way to argue against these things consistently and that's why in the Christian world you have to come back and that's what I tried to bring out when I was when I was on the Dr Drew show on HLN was you've got to have ultimate authorities it's the ultimate authorities that are going to determine these things and as long as we're just playing around down here on emotional on an emotional level weever going accomplish anything well I'm really concerned that I do not hear any discussion of the worldview issues that should give the foundation for any meaningful discussion this subject if we don't discuss the worldview that gives rise to our decisions then all we're doing is giving our own personal opinions that's that's not how you deal with societal issues why it doesn't harm anybody though you're right see that this is this is this is very popular right now it I mean it has been but but this this listen Christians this doesn't harm you and I I I even I Dr White the thing that has bothered me bothered me the most is to see The Men Who occupi occupy the sacred place of the pulpit with the word of God before God's people act in ways to say well this this doesn't affect the church you know it's just you know that's the world let the world be the world and we'll be the church and and and we've almost sort of just just embraced it their argumentation we've gone yeah yeah that's that's that's the way we should go it doesn't harm us Dr White this is just people doing what they want to do well first of all let's make sure we understand uh it certainly harms them yeah um falling in love with a mirror image is is not the way of life it does not uh mature uh it it denigrates and it destroys um the number of the percentage of the male homosexual group whatever however you want to Define that that actually seeks after a monogamous long-term relationship by by all of the studies that have been done is significantly less than 10% um and so the result of that in all the studies has been a reduction of life expectancy of of two decades so don't tell me it doesn't hurt people because it hurts the people that actually engage in it but the question was but it doesn't hurt us and once again again in 1982 I married Kelly now the the verb is determined by its subject and its direct object and by that verb I became a husband and she became my wife and when you when you change this verb of necessity you're changing the identification of husband and wife so we now have states that are removing that kind of language we have situations where you have two wives and two husbands that's a completely different institution now in one sense it doesn't hurt my relationship with my wife in the sense that before God anybody else can go do whatever they want we covenanted before God that we would do certain things okay so there is a sense in which you could say in a very limited way but the problem is when a society decides that we are not we are going to dishonor what you did by paralleling it with all these other things right now one particular thing but we all know it's going to end up being you know multiples of necessity by Logic then you are fundamentally uh altering the nature of that thing and and again a society that will encourage behaviors that destroy it citizens is a society that has lost its Collective mind and and I think what about what just what about the children that are raised in homes with the guarantee no mother or no father and and this is the thing that that it gets lost in all of the propaganda the love wins does love win for the child raised in a home with two lesbian mothers who will never have a father figure um or how about the the testimonies of the people who were raised in homes with gay parents and these girls saying I never knew what it was like to to be a woman I I I I didn't know what it looked like to have how a husband's supposed to treat his wife I I didn't know what what that was supposed to be like and we have the testimonies of children raised in this context and and we see that when you rebel against God's order it has implications for all of the world around us sin never existent simply in a vacuum sin always affects me and it affects the world around me and as soon as we say that the immediate response in the world is yeah but husbands die mothers die uh you know uh there there are exceptions to the rule is thinking that the exception destroys what the rule is that was that's what happened on the Dr Drew show was well you're saying that you know everybody has to be perfect no the point is that when when a when a soldier would die on the battle field and had had boys at home the community would come together and men in that in that in that group would seek to try to help fill that vacuum because they knew there was a vacuum there they knew that that boy would need guidance from a man we have now come to the point where we don't care about any of that that my love for a mere image of myself is more important than providing for a child and giving them a foundation upon which they can grow up to be a mature adult that actually is able to function as God God would have them to function that is where the giving over is really taking place and when you live in a society where you can have eight-year-olds where you start pumping their bodies full of foreign chemicals so as to try to change their gender and keep them from going into puberty that is a level of insanity and a level of evil that is difficult to comprehend it is it's difficult to comprehend it really is and so when when we think about the Lord Jesus and what he says about marriage you say it often and it needs to be embraced by all of us from the beginning the Creator made them male and female but it's interesting that we hang often times on Jesus saying uh a man shall leave his father and his mother in the sense of he's leaving to go cling to his wife but we forget what Jesus says As what he's leaving he's leaving a father and a mother and and and so here you have God in the flesh Jesus telling us that this is the order that you leave a mother father and and we're we're actually suggesting that the creator of the cosmos the creator of all things in heaven and on Earth visible and invisible that that this creator doesn't know what his order is to be and that we can somehow flip that on its head and not reap the consequences from it and and it it really is compelling to me and so Dr White last one because this is the one everyone gets um how dare you judge me how dare you judge me you bigoted Christian because because you see your own Bible says don't judge lest you be judged and and and here's the thing it's it's it's interesting that we even have to provide an answer to this Dr white but it is the most common thing I'm seeing and the thing that Christians always are always asking how do I respond to that that's almost frightening uh I would almost think that that any Christian who has read their Bible has encountered so many references to where God judges and where we are called to Proclaim God's judgment against sin that it would be it would be second nature as to how you are to respond to something like this it's it's a glaring obvious example of taking one verse ignoring its context the fact that Jesus is talking about judging you're going to be judged by the standard by which you judge he was talking to Hypocrites he was talking to people that he just read Matthew chapter 23 you're get a good idea of the context in which that's going to be flowing out of and we are commanded to judge with righteous judgment uh the very Foundation of God's Throne is righteousness and Justice he is going to judge and as we saw earlier in Hebrews chapter 13:4 it is specifically said in the context of altering and violating the gift of the Covenant of marriage that fornicators that is anyone who does something outside of what God has said this is the appropriate way of sexual behavior forn ators and adulterers God will judge so really we are not the ones I'm not the judge I don't get to be the judge but God does call me as his servant to Proclaim his righteous judgment and here's his standards and you tell me if you stand before him today what will the Judgment be that he makes of your heart and you know that's what's so effective about about bringing God's law to bear in that way is that you know that allows the spirit of God to to bring conviction upon that person and and we of course can then immediately put ourselves in the exact same position and say if I stood outside the righteousness of Christ I know my own heart I know my own sexual Brokenness I know my own uh thievery or whatever else it might be my anger my hatred uh all those things and if I had to stand before God and be judged based upon who I am I would be eternally lost but my message for you is the only way that anyone will stand before a holy God is if they are clothed in the righteousness of another and that is that we have already given up any any right to Define ourselves we stand before God with our mouths closed God's God's righteous judgment has been pronounced on us we're not like those people we see on TV all the time on court TV who are blabbing away I'm not as bad as that guy I'm not as as bad as that guy etc etc we're not like those people we're we stand before God our mouth is closed we acknowledge the justice of God's judgment upon us and as repentant Sinners we throw ourselves totally upon God's mercy and Grace and that is the person who will find Jesus Christ's righteousness to be imputed to him that's the only way we're going to stand before God it doesn't matter what the sin is and so that is why however we have to stand so firm for what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6 because if you can change what he says there where he says None of these who continue in these practices will inherit the kingdom of God such were some of you but you were washed you were cleansed you were Justified name of God is forever Lord if if we collapse on that that's the gospel and we have no gospel left we have no way of of of proclaiming to people the Forgiveness of sins and hence we have no reason for continuing to exist as as a as a body in this world and so um this is a gospel issue and if we collapse upon it then we collapse upon functioning in this world in the way God has called us to function yeah okay so one thing Dr Brown brought up that I thought was interesting when you think about it because it shows that it doesn't make a difference when it comes to to particular side issue eschatological beliefs as important as they may be there are certain presuppositional commitments that every Christian has as to Christ and his lordship Christ as king of kings and Lord of lords God's Authority his rule in the world so you have a premillennialist an on- millennialist a post millennialist and it doesn't matter you have to understand as as we have to understand as Christians that it is it is our basic commitments as Christians that make this issue an issue we should all approach with the same message it and we're all supposed to rise up in the same way against this sort of a thing so these issues cannot as cannot stop us from serving together and being on Mission together in this in this issue and I I I want us Dr White this is very important I want us to be able to address the people that might be saying whoo whoa whoo and the sky is falling and and this is just the end of all things because because Whitfield came at a time where the Christian church is preaching a lot of sloppy make your grass greener be a better dad kind of messages and there was a decline and he came in a time of real darkness and uh that's really interesting people don't know that about him often times when he comes to this clear communicated gospel and then God brings light Edwards you look at his all these moments where it seems like the world was against the church and nothing but darkness is creeping in and the light of the Gospel comes in in full view once again and and I want you to talk to us about the sovereignty of God well you know uh there is a difference we will have to admit I think uh between a lot of the previous experiences of the church and this matter and and right now and that is um in the situations for example in the colonies or in the early period of the United States there was still a general profession of faith it had just become an empty faith it was it was a it was a hypocrisy is what it was it was a dead uh Orthodoxy um what we have now that is somewhat unique is what was once a culture that was founded upon at least principles that openly Rec recognized maybe not consistently applied which may be part of the problem but openly recognized um the fact that God had spoken and these are principles that gave rise to our Liberty and everything else in full knowledge of that there is a unabashed unembarrassed rejection and embrace of the opposite of that with with with passion and with a level of technology that we've never possessed before and so we may be facing um persecution that will have a technological aspect to it that we've never even considered before and so we need to be very serious but you actually um talked about earlier just briefly the little sermon that I have been giving to myself almost every time I've spoken on this subject and that is what we need to recognize is yes God sits in the heavens he laughs at the Nations that that attempt to overthrow his rulership and it is pretty amazing to think about the fact that that creatures who every breath they take and every be of their heart comes from God's hand can somehow successfully rebel against God it's it's it's the the stupidity of the pot Rebellion is is is TR is truly Madness but but when we think about how we um are to respond to this the sermon that I keep giving myself is that the only Power this world will have over me is the power that I give to it now how would I give the world power over me the world cannot touch my soul uh my life my life has been hidden with Christ in God and there's no power in this world that can that can there thereby touch me uh can can separate me from the from love of God in Christ Jesus we we know Romans 8 etc etc so what power could the world possibly have but that which I give the World by loving the things of the world oh yeah if I love my things and what are my things well the obvious things are my uh my my gadgets uh for me my bikes um my physical fitness uh my martial arts those things that we love to do in this world that we enjoy uh our televisions our computers our homes our cars our boats our vacation homes our 401ks or whatever they are I don't have one of those um um our our our money our retirement our bodies our clothing our standing all these things will pass away and there is that Stark Stark text in 1 John 2 if you love the things of the world love of the father is not in you the only Power that any evil government of the future would have over me I give it by loving the things of this world because those are the things they can take from me and say if you don't do what we want you to do we will take these things from you yeah and so I preach to myself and the process preached to others um you look at Corey tenom in in a German concentration camp yeah has nothing no health no possessions no nothing and that's why the world couldn't do anything to her and take her faith from her yeah because all those things that we end up dividing our devotion with we're gone we're gone and so when we when we ask ourselves H how will I respond when the world finally says you will bow the knee to Caesar I've often said if someone just came running into a church service where I was preaching on this subject and as an AK-47 and puts to someone's head and says renounce Christ or die in that sudden situation most of us are not going to deny Christ but it's the day in day out grind it is the it is that's that's how Islam Destro destroyed Christianity in North Africa it wasn't take the sword and Lop your head off it was pay the gizia never have the advanc ability to advance economically have to live on the margins all the time day in day out eventually it's easier to be a Muslim and you be why because you love the things of the world and that's what we're going to be facing I think is um obviously we can sit here and very cavalierly say wow that's could be a purifying thing isn't that one wonderful um but when I think about the stuff we complain about every single day in our lives little things that almost always just have to do with what the things this world that's right um then I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's going to be easy to give those things up and to u to stand firm but that's what's going to be required of us one of the things that's blessed me a lot Dr White about your ministry was there's always sort of like just generally as a Christian God is Sovereign he's in control of all things um so I think I had that was there but I I still would with sort of operate as a Christian in terms of yeah but I I had the whole idea of you know there's still the issue of man's freedom and what he does and and I and I I just I don't know that I fully ever really took in the truths of God's word that are just pervasive everywhere about him declaring the end from the beginning and what I found Dr White is since I've had that Foundation planted underneath me now I can face the world with whatever it comes at me as a Christian whatever comes at us as a church with the knowledge that God declares the end from the beginning that this enemy that's been raised up right now that we're facing now as a church is something that God intends to put under his feet that he will defeat it and um and again just es es eschatological positions aside it doesn't make a difference when it comes to the general truths that we know about God and his sovereignty this is who he is this did not takeen by surprise he has not been thwarted and and I want you just to just we end with this give us all that Foundation uh that that you talk about in your books The Potter's freedom and all that that your ministry is known for this the absolute sovereignty of God over human Affairs and all things a lot of people struggle with this because we we look at this situation and we go well if if if God is Sovereign then why would he allow this to happen as if we supposedly are to know all of his purposes uh we are never h held accountable for the content of God's of God's secret decree yeah we are only held accountable for that which God has revealed to us and what he has revealed to us is that he is the maker and creator of all things he does not learn anything he did not he did not take the cosmic Dice and throw him out there and go oh oh good I win worship me um instead he is accomplishing his purpose his purpose is going to be the absolute perfect glorification of the father son and spirit in the very way he desires to be glorified in the demonstration of all of his attributes his love his Mercy his grace his Justice his wrath and his power it's all going to be seen in the exact balance the exact exact way that he wanted that to be revealed and if you if you want to spend some time really being encouraged in that I'd say read Isaiah 40-48 there's some sections in Jeremiah uh there's a tremendous sermon by Jonathan Edwards that uh I can't read anymore because it's only in such small print I can't see it anymore but I was thankfully I read it when I was young enough to actually see it um and uh uh on the sovereignty of God and to just be reminded of that that Biblical teaching that God is in control and then join to that the reality that he has decreed whatsoever takes takes place in time and he has decreed that what takes place in time is going to be the very area where he glorifies himself and that therefore it is extremely meaningful we think in such narrow categories that if well if God determined everything that's going to happen then then there's no freedom and there's no human will and and it's all just a game because we've squished it down into just into just two Dimensions rather than recognizing the the ultimate demonstration of the fact that what God is decreed is real and meaningful and that is the Incarnation he also included that he himself the Eternal one would in the person of His Son enter into his own creation and give his life as a ransom for many to me that is the absolute demonstration of the importance of what takes place in time the importance of the fact that we can call men you you will be held accountable by God for acting upon the desires of your heart acting upon the fact that God has revealed this is what I would have you to do this is what I have you not to do uh there is a solid basis for that and it all goes back to recognizing the Incarnation and recognizing that because Christ has entered in um we are not just puppets on strings Jesus didn't become a puppet uh the Incarnation was not the Puppet Master becoming a puppet um and so when people struggle with that I I I have found at least for some Christians it's helps to think about it along those lines but yes God is in control of exactly what's going on here I believe his judgment is is happening all around us we cannot see the future and so God calls us to be a prophetic voice to be Salt and Light um only he knows if he's going to bring repentance if he's if if you know would the would the fall of this nation and mighty would and great would be its fall would that not possibly be a tremendous warning to the whole world of what it what the result of closing your eyes to the light of the Gospel would be I mean I we have to we have to see that as a possibility and no matter what he calls us you know the Jews could never see remember remember Jeremiah is preaching at the temple this is a temple it's yahweh's name is here God's not going to allow this to be destroyed what what are you talking about Jewish exceptionalism yeah exactly exactly and are are we in the same boat are we in the same place good [Music] [Applause] question want to encourage you guys to sign up for all access at apolog radio.com you get the television show all the past television shows you get the hourong after show you get the apologia on the pastor's couch you also get the podcast you get all the additional content including including the apologia academy at apologia radio.com

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 89,781

Keywords: James R. White, Alpha and Omega Ministries, droakley1689, Michael Brown (Author), Ask Dr. Brown, Homosexuality, Gay Rights, Gay Marriage, Jeff Durbin, apologia radio, apologia church, apologetics, Supreme Court Of The United States (Court), matthew vines, LGBT Rights (Website Category), FOX (TV Network), CNN (Production Company), MSNBC (TV Network), gospel coalition, sermon, shocking, debate, protest, pastor, gay

Id: 5XHmQWjJu4I

Length: 86min 29sec (5189 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 24 2015