The Future Of Farming | Small-Scale, Organic, Local, Regenerative?

if we want to replace the industrial mass  production and I say this often with production   by the masses and some people don't like when I  say that because it oversimplifies many things but   for me it just it's an image yeah and a vision and  a vision um you know when you see that in action   when you see that happening somewhere and you see  the result on the social Fabric in the community   you see the local economy that's created that  way like we see it in Fredericksburg in the area   you live there you know that of course uh it's  just it's amazing so for me that's the end game when you look back to 20 years ago when you  started in farming and you think about the   role that small farms had and you know the  world of Agriculture and our general World At   Large how do you feel about how it's going  now uh I feel pretty positive honestly um I feel that in my my community like when  we started modeling and I here in 2003   uh there was one organic farm in the area doing  farmers market and doing CSA shares now there's   about 30. uh not just not just Vegetable Farms but  you know there's there's a lot of organic farms   we have Wednesday night farmer night at in  freisberg of course where there's you know   all the farmers come together there's more  Farmers Market uh it's not it's not all roses   there's still some issues but I just I just  feel that there's been an evolution in the the   offering there's more offer and I think  that's key because if we want to replace   industrial mass production and I say this  often with production by the masses and some   people don't like when I say that because it  oversimplifies many things but for me it just   it's an image yeah and a vision and a vision um  you know when you see that in action when you   see that happening somewhere and you see the  result on the social Fabric in the community   you see the local economy that's created that way  like we see it in Fredericksburg in the area you   live there you know that of course uh it's just  it's amazing so for me that's the end game the end   game is to have communities that are built around  local farms local restaurant local everything   and you know that's competing against  big AG that is in the big Superstores   that for me are very reversed to where we want to  go like for me that's like the anti it's not just   because of of how I see the ecological impacts  of of Superstores and and and you know Amazons   of this world it's because it's not interesting  yeah in in in a social context like it's food   it's like it's a commodity like and I've always  repeated this so for so many years and I took this   from Elliot Coleman and I I asked Elliot one and  if I could use this because I think it really it's   really appropriate it's like I think the future of  farming is food grown with Care by people who care   like the intention goes a long way and a long  answer to your short question like I think the   future the question of what the future of farming  is is not the right question because that question   is is what's the word like it's it's rigged  I see what you're saying yeah it's rigged   because obviously technology and and you just like  nano technology and just like Robotics and like   investing and it's that's the future of farming  because the people asking these questions that's   the answer that they want like what do we want how  do we want to be fed how do we want to have the   food that we eat produced that's the question and  I think we want human scale farming yeah I think   that's what we want like and and that's what I  want that's what I want for my life that's what   I want for my kids life that's what I want for my  community that's why I have a restaurant um local   food grown We Care by people who care and we want  to have people that have their hands in the soil   not just machines and robots we don't want an  industrialized system we want to decentralized   system that is creating local economy and you  know I think there's going to be a big fight   that's already in process  for the last 50 years against   just like the industrialization of and it's not  going to be industrialization it's going to be   Tech the Techno I don't know the word for  that like the Techno everything of farming   yeah just yeah yeah the technicalization  yeah the technolization of farming it's   not a word I think but I think that's  what we're going to be up against   I want to take two ideas that you put  out there and bring them together and   because like it's a huge question just  how do we replace large production with   small production by the masses that's obviously a  Guiding Light but it's so broad that I think the   only way to talk about it is just to get into  certain details so you mentioned Superstores   and um I don't remember the other thing  actually right now but my question is   if we're gonna get to that point you know the role  of grocery store I think needs to change and needs   to evolve because if you go to any grocery store  in pretty much any town it's loaded with people   those people are potentially not going to farmers  markets this is where they're going to get their   food so how do you see the future of the grocery  store and how it relates to Farmers Market csas   like how are some of those customers going to  transition what role will the grocery store play   like can you talk on that yeah yeah that's that's  there's two big topics there's access to land   and how to dismantle the current centralized  food system in my opinion which both are kind   of involves quite like a little bit of a REV a  revolution yeah okay um I'm a big believer in   the why of things and I think a lot of the younger  people that are starting in their career they're   going to work for businesses and Enterprises that  have a clear why on why they're doing what they're   doing and just making money is not going to cut  it it needs to be we're having a positive impact   on the local economy we're contributing  to something that for the greater good food chains if you and if they if they're  sitting here when you ask the CEO of a food   chain what's what's his end game the bottom  line for the shareholders that's it yeah I   think that why is too weak and too poor  to keep on staying relevant where we're   going so I I can you know my first answer  is getting people out of the supermarkets   uh you know my buzzword is always we need less  supermarkets and more Supermarket gardeners I   like that but like I think you'll see a shift  where you have some local independent food stores   that have a better why that are attracting people  that have more Consciousness about these issues   and um that needs to happen and arguably  that is happening at a certain rate already   it might not be enough to be where  we want to be but for sure they're   20 years ago there was a way less people that  were going to these alternative places for   their food or even aware that it was an option  right it's really busy yeah well that's farming   do you like it like that yeah that's fine  whatever yeah I think I think that whole you know I'm I'm Chris I'm I'm Optimist and  positive but I also see what's going on yeah so we   had local independent food co-ops that were kind  of busting and kicking and thriving because they   were different they were offering Local Foods they  had they had the organic produce produce in them   and then Whole Foods came along and just grabbed  it yeah just made it bigger better more appealing   more marketable just like sophisticated  more resources and then grab the market   and same thing happened with Organic like there  was local small farms everywhere in North America   pushing local produce at the Farmers Market  you know organic was you want to be different   you want to be more in tune with nature you want  to be more in tune with the solution buy organic   and now big AG just bought the label  The Organic certification labeling so   like I think even even though I'm super  positive and I'm not overly politicized   like we're always fighting against  Corporation that want to steal   our markets and we need to be thinking  like that we want to steal their markets   we want to grab people out of the supermarkets  and bring them into the local food hub we want   to counter uh you know University extension agents  that are heavily funded by big act like in the U.S   like in the U.S we want to fight back and have  our own resources we want to fight politicians   on these things and like there needs to be a  certain level of activism still and I think   that's just it's just inevitable yeah and every  successful Grassroots movement faces that same   yeah same problem of big business wanting to  to use it but it's a use for their own ends   yeah and it's the Grassroots it's up to them to  us to anyone in the small scale farming world   to be the resistance to that I guess yeah  like you know last time we were together I   had this t-shirt resistance is fertile  yeah and I think that's true and and   like it's There's an opportunity also because big  AG has control of the food distribution so it's   just an opportunity to reclaim it yeah so more  Farms local farms better engineering of you know   local food hubs how they're organized local food  shops local coffee shops everything that's not   Starbucks anything that's not Whole Foods  anything that's not it's like this is   this is what's interesting this is what's  their taste there's flavor there's colors   there's people there's culture this is the  crossroad between having something that is   Blended and homogeneralized what's the word for  that homogenized homogenized and lame and boring   yeah and having a vibrant culture like you'll  have in Europe or in France or here for ellisburg   where there's a there's a farm to table and  there's a that's that's where you want to be   independent theater independent everything yeah  speaking on that uh the relation of big AG like   well the idea that big AG controls the food supply  in a lot of ways or the distribution and that we   have an opportunity to take parts of that it's  easy for one to imagine how that can be done   with veggies yeah and kind of How It's already  an option but I'm curious about what you think   about those other things that we all like to  eat the breads the pastas the grain the oil all   these things that I think make up a large part  of many people's diets where does small-scale   farming need to fit into that what do you think  that's such a great question and today like I   see I see this really like happening and it's  gonna be it's gonna be the next 30 Years you'll   have local food processing plants micro plants  yeah like they'll have all the equipment of an   industrialized plant but it's going to be small  micro and for local markets like microbreweries   micro breweries it's a great example it's  a great example like 30 years ago there was   perhaps like seven beers in the whole U.S market  that were distributed everywhere yeah now there's   tens of thousands that are everywhere  popping up it's creating a local economy   that's what we're going to see that with wine  like you know wine today is controlled by a lot   of people that have a lot of money that have  Estates like you'll see young people getting   into wine making natural wine you know doing a lot  less bottles but selling them directly being more   present a better product and using the technology  of of you know more industrial things but on   a local level you'll see that with grains  small grains like that's that's the old bill   that we used to you know uh uh um what's the word  familiar we used to Mill you know the grain from   all the farmers in the area and produce you know  locally produce all the wheat that we would eat   all all the the different cereals like it's  going to come back to that because the weed   today is making people sick like that's like  everyone's that's you know stop eating wheat   guaranteed you'll feel much better so that's not  normal because wheat is a super it's a super food   yeah but it's so poorly it has the genetics of  the Wheats is so poor now the seeds that we need   to we need to kind of just propose an alternative  that is much more Superior and then you'll have   local meals and you have all the equipment to  make your your uh flour and then you'll have   the label the coolness factor of it you'll sell  online you'll sell to local and that's going to   happen in everything yeah and it again like it  is already happening it's happening like I know   of a farm in New Jersey where I used to live that  was doing small scale grains and the nofa of New   Jersey was really involved in this and they had  people from uh like Amish Country coming to talk   about how they were doing grains we do showcases  on I think it was einkorn is one of the varieties   it's like a heirloom variety of think wheat I  hope I'm right um and like it there was a sense   that that is coming and it's only going to come  more and more because it's already proliferated   with veggies but yeah and micro breweries you  said it like microbrews is a great example   like I wish we could have the numbers of how 30  years prior and now the impact of microbreweries   in the local economies throughout the U.S in North  America it's you know here in Dunham like it's the   number one employee employer yeah it's it's huge  and you know it's the dunam brewery is a micro   Brewery it's not it's all done right there so  and and the reason why I'm so excited about that   is that if you distill all the moving Parts in an  argument about what could replace mass production it's not about regenerative farming organic  farming it's not a label because the label   will always be co-opted it's about local it's  about presence human it's about Connections   and that my friend cannot be duplicated yeah  on a large scale except if it's multiplied   and that's the real Revolution and  then no one's talking about that   no one is the spokesman of that idea and there  needs to be more people saying this is what should   happen because there's a lot of resources right  now that are going in regenerative farming for   climate change a lot of resources yep and you know  that money could be going to the local food shed yeah and anyone in this space they  know it because we experience it in   human to human connection is without a  doubt the most powerful part of it all   and and we we've all seen it like you had  that local Brewery that went big sold out   and they're not interesting anymore they're not  your local Brewer anymore yeah and you know they   and and that's the that's you know that's  why just like this small scale farming is   changing the world that's why I'm saying this  because it's it's the fact that it's small   that it's changing the world it's not small scale  organic small scale regenerative small scale   and highly efficient Farms with the good  technology low-tech Four Season you know   access to local markets food distribution with  local Farm to Table restaurants local food   co-ops like eating is a is a big economy like  there's a lot of people to feed we all need to   so that's why I see that the revolution that's  where it's heading let's talk about obstacles   in the way of of small farms succeeding in small  farms and multiplying I'm we're gonna I'm gonna   kind of rapid fire at you different obstacles give  a brief brief-ish answer on each one land access   that's a tough one land access I don't want  to say land reform because I studied that at   University and we were looking at people in South  America it wasn't it wasn't a happy ending um I just I think there needs to be better design of how land is used yeah from like  a government level or even I guess just cultural   societal it's a hard question isn't it it's a  hard question I don't have the answer to that   um what's the name of the guy that uh bucksman's  like Buck Buck's Minster Fuller I'm not sure if   I know yeah Buckminster Fuller in the 1940s okay  made designs Community designs of what it would   like if small farms were making up the countryside  people should look that up just that image of him   this this image of what a province could look like  it's amazing and that's how France was 100 years   ago and was it like each Community I like if you  imagine a suburb you could almost imagine what   if uh 50 of the backyards were all growing food  and everyone in that suburb ate that like that's   sort of a yeah uh a pretty vision of what  it could be but but it's not a pretty Vision   because otherwise if there's no food anymore  because you know yeah big AG is having a hard   time with water shortage it's having a hard time  with climate change there's going to be massive   migration of populations because of the rise  of water yeah and there's going to be a lot of   disruption in the next 20 years yeah like there's  a big possibility that people will start growing   their own food because either they won't have  access to it or it's going to be too expensive   so that's that's that's possible that's my  next one the price of produce the fact that   people aren't able to sell their produce  for enough like they're they're not able   to hit their margin where do you see that  kind of issue uh getting improved upon yeah as a farmer like I want to have better  prices that's that's my end game as a consumer   you know that's kind of a because if it's  so expensive that you can't buy it because   it's local and it's organic and it's you  know it's healthy nutrient dense whatever   yeah that's another hard one using we  as a society don't value food enough   is there an argument to be made because you know  that's what some people say yeah I I think when   you look at let's say a football City and look  at the stadiums how many people go to watch   a football game the price of a football  game in the NFL let's say it's just like it's terrible it's like that's yes  that's the food cost of a month so I don't know like I think there's this  issue of not people valuing the quality   of finer Foods enough usually the  people that value Finer Foods more   they probably have more education they're  a bit more aware of these things they're   perhaps more sophisticated in their own  taste and so it attracts this clientele   but there's a lot of Education that goes into all  of that yeah and there's a it's not quite a saying   but an idea that there's two things that people  refuse to spend more money on energy and food the   two things that we actually need every single day  and perhaps that's why because we just view them   as Commodities they're not gadgets that we want  in our lives they're things that we literally   need every day so we just view it you know that  it has to be a certain price and anything more is   is absurd yeah and and I think on that topic  I know this is rapid fire we need to go faster   that's okay like please stop putting the pressure  on the farmer to produce that lower cost like   please stop it like like don't get pissed at  a grower because he's selling things expensive   because he needs to make a living also and you  know it's not his fault if there's no social   safety nets if there's no health care if there's  no public education if there's no you know that's   these are all societal issues that the farmer  can't bear that on his shoulder like the burden of   producing food at low cost shouldn't  be his game he should be focusing on   producing high quality nutritional valuable food  for people to be healthy that should be his game   yeah and a final note on that point in your  interview that you did with Jeff Moyer from   rodale yeah last year I remember him saying  that um that for Farmers it's not their fault   that they decided to go conventional and do  things cheaper they there was a farmer that   said it was the consumer's fault you told me  what you wanted by buying these things yeah   you want to change the more you bought it I was  like I'm just going to give you what you want and   so there is there is this question of what role  is the consumer play and then does that mean there   needs to be a revolution of Education I mean I  think we all agree there kind of does but I guess   like there's so many different people and ways of  getting involved and making this happen other than   just being a farmer and like we need all of the  players to come in to change things because the   consumer needs to change the governments and our  just our whole society and culture how we think   that's all of it has to shift in order for small  farms to to grow and to be successful and to not   just always be running into walls yeah yeah and  and you know one place where there needs to be a   shift is like in universities right now like I'm  not sure that too many students are looking at the   right issues to tackle in their future like the  food the good food Revolution nourishing people   uh farming technologies that are not  only that are that are based in ecology   uh human niches and human culture like this is a  real real revolutionary subject like and I I just   sometimes I wonder like I hear strong debates  and really strong focus on social issues that   in my mind are not they're they're important  but you know there's there's others out there   and how we're being fed right now like man  if people knew more it's it's it's pretty   darn upsetting yeah and there's there's so  much room for growth of the alternatives   and so just like I just feel more energy should  be put in these kind of subjects absolutely all   right the idea that uh young people that want  to start in farming don't have money yeah and so   how do we what what do you think could be done  there it's uh yeah just make it more accessible yeah I don't think that just putting money on  it solves the issue like there could be better   you know I think there needs to be policies that  say you know if you want to if you want to have   young people in farming which means old people  can get out of farming because that that works   together true uh we need to have policies that  redesign and reshape land so that it's smaller   there's more diversity of usage on these pieces  of land and there needs to be some subsidies   so that young people have the right equipment to  start their farms and not start in a teepee like   I did and just kind of buy everything without any  money uh yeah so and better better education about   how to farm and just like these are all things  that could and can and are slowly getting done   uh this so policy plays a big role  who's involved in policy and why   like also there's there's also that like perhaps  that we should reconnect with some of the folks   that we know that are involved in policy  give them a little bit more of our support   just make them more aware of farming  issues bring them on farms educate them   with Fine Food yeah like there's this  there's this bridge that needs to be yeah and we should we should get rid of the  bozos that are running the show up there like   it's ridiculous what about the idea of taking on  debt I think a lot of young Farmers especially   the ones that are super inspired I think a lot of  them are very anti the idea of taking on debt and   relying on banks relying on yeah but I think you  come from a bit more of a practical mindset of   like well you know most businesses if you don't  have money the only way you're going to get it   off the ground is some sort of investment or loan  or something so what do you think what would you   say to a young person that's super uh resistant  to any idea of debt and things like that yeah I   I don't know how many more questions you have  but we could wrap it up with this because it   comes back to my main point like the why  the why in business is really important   but once the why is well answered business is  a really really strong Catalyst for change it's   it's a superstructure of how to organize ideas  thoughts energy movement towards something   and so young people that want to start  Farms they need to have better Acumen of   entrepreneurial uh skills entrepreneurship  economics how that works running small businesses   how that works and then once you study that you  understand that loans is just one of the tools   to get what you need to get go somewhere  business plan business cases all of these   all of these tools in a toolbox of an entrepreneur  are really important like very important   so that's my message to them all  right moving on from these obstacles   oh actually I wanted to ask this because I think  a lot of young farmers are thinking about it   what do you think about value-added products and  agritourism for Farmers as a means of potentially   making themselves more profitable yeah value-added  products agritourism stacking on the Enterprises   with different things I think that's great because  the end game for me is you have let's say 200 300   400 500 customers that you're having a direct  relationship with you're seeing them you're   connected to them they're in your community  they come to your store they come to your farm   uh these are the customers that will buy  from you so veggies that was the reason   why Market gardening exists it's like  why would I just sell you carrots would   I can sell you carrots beans lettuce peas yeah  everything you need so my stand has everything   but you know add eggs add flour add cheese add  that's what the farmer's market is yeah yeah   and so for me that's that's that's great local  shops you know if you have you know e-commerce   is great for that you said you can set up an  e-commerce business in two hours yeah and then   you have your customers and then you can sell  what you want to them and just like get out of   the mountain the mindset that this needs to scale  and you need to build a big business you don't   just build a local business that pays for  expenditures pays for salaries pays for   you provide a good service and that's great  Yogi you're going to be a local celebrated   you know person yeah what are you seeing  right now in the small scale farming World   maybe even right around you personally  that is making you feel really hopeful   and excited and looking forward to the future  an example would be really nice if you have one   yeah there's a lot of examples of you know I think  how chefs in in recent years have switched it on   on eating locally and in season and showing people  how to cook more simpler food like I think we're   done with going to the fancy restaurant and eating  Lobster from Argentina and you know what's mizu's   abuse octopussy oh yeah just from the other world  or our Thai shrimps like that's so disgusting yeah   we're realizing that it's not as cool no it's not  cool it was like and I think that chefs and local   restaurants that are aware conscious are a lot  more I have a big role to play they've had just   like educating people on what's really cool is is  what's local and in season that's what's really   like the best so I'm I'm really excited about  that that inspired me to open the restaurant here   um I think like the bipark movement and getting  messages to different communities especially in   the U.S yeah I think that was huge and I think  that was necessary and I'm not super well educated   because I don't live in the U.S and I'm not aware  of all these pockets of how you know different   realities but I think that was super positive to  have a broader Spectrum of visibility of who's   doing what and cultural differences in farming  in the U.S I think we need to celebrate that   um and I think regenerative even though  I have certain issues with how it's   claimed and advertised right now I think it's  progress and I want to believe it is you know   I'm an ambassador for The rodale Institute  regenerative organic I think that that needs to   be the buzzword needs to be regenerative organic  yeah put them together and put them together   I'm hopeful of that and I'm hopeful that you know  young people get into farming because they they   want to be outside they want to make a difference  Climate Change is Gonna impact tremendously   how things are done with industrialized uh  food production yeah and water shortage and   it's it's going to be quite interesting in the  next 30 Years my final question imagine a close   friend comes to you and says they want to start a  farm and there you go yeah maybe if it's someone   like your your son's age I'm gonna do it yeah what  would be your main advice you would yeah I would   tell them to check out the master class the online  course that I teach I don't know about beyond that   what else give me uh some advice you would give  yeah it's always the same you need to be working   on farms before like find a farm that is healthy  productive well-organized well-structured work   there for a few seasons you know get it get it  get it get get what it is yeah yeah and uh and   then start your own and then start small make it  happen make connections be part of a community um and then just like that's a tricky question  because that's kind of what I did and I can see   the result of what my wife and I the evolution  in our farming we were very curious we traveled   to Cuba we went to a lot of farms in the U.S and  France and Europe we saw things yeah so I think   like having a broad perspective on how to farm is  important and finally a community where you'll fit   in and uh yeah got some grapes for natural wine  is there is there a red flag you would see in the   beginning of someone's Enterprise that you'd be  like oh I think you should change this no nothing   that I don't think there's there's red flags you  know we all know how farming is tough but you know   honestly I have friends in other sectors it's  stuff everywhere stuff everywhere if you want   to open a construction yeah yeah good luck it's  tough if you want to be like whatever whatever you   you want to open as a business man you want  to open a restaurant good luck that's tough   extremely and then one out of five will make it  to year five yeah that's tough farming is not   necessarily any different it's just like farming  is because it's physical and it's grinding days   and so but like there's a lot of Trades that are  like that so anyway I'm not down stop playing that   it's not so hard but it's just yeah I don't see  any red flags you know well-trained commitment   to improving processes uh you know business  Acumen understanding the business part of it   uh and the know-how of how to do things   like with being well trained in how to manipulate  all the different veggies how to grow them how to   deal with insect disease pests how to deal with a  crew yeah all of these things you can acquire that   if you have the right mindset yeah any final  thoughts yeah just like I like these discussions   Chris me too anytime we have to do more of  them all right good I hope everyone's well

Channel: Market Gardener Institute

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Length: 36min 48sec (2208 seconds)

Published: Wed Aug 16 2023