The Efficacy of Quantum Healing

[Music] if you're watching this on YouTube you might have noticed that this episode is a week delayed but if you want to get early access to our episodes consider becoming a paying member if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe and share it with with your friends thank you for all your support Deepak Chopra is a medical doctor with mystical leanings who has built a highly successful second career as a PVE of alternative remedies and deities that I would say and here I suppose I show my bias impress those who think that if they can't understand something it must be profoundly significant as part of my channel for documentary enemies of reason I asked him to explain his concept of quantum healing we went on from there could you explain your revolutionary ideas on Quantum healing and any evidence there may be that it works Quantum healing is just a uh a theory that U I proposed many years ago and now Dr ammed goswami who's a professor of quantum physics at Oregon State University is also talking about it is just the theory that a shift in Consciousness uh creates a shift in biology that's it so you know if you're stressed uh your adrenaline and your cortisol levels and many other neuropeptides cause physiological Chaos on the other hand if you have an internally induced state of euphoria then you have the simultaneous release of things like serotonin and doiion dopamine and opiates and oxytocin which also happen to be immunomodulators so a shift in Consciousness causes a shift in biology okay especially in the immune system or or no an overall homeostasis homeostasis allows for spontaneous healing mechanisms to work right but where did the where did the Quantum Theory come into that oh it's just a metaphor just like an electron or a photon is an indivisible unit of information and energy a thought is a indivisible unit of Consciousness oh so it's a it's a metaphor for a for a unit there nothing to do with quantum theory as in physics no I think quantum theory has a lot of things to say about observer effect about non-locality uh about correlation so I think one there are a school of physicists who believe that Consciousness uh has to be uh equated or at least brought into the equation uh in understanding quantum mechanics yes uh but when when you use it you're using it as a metaphor which I fully understand I mean the quantum as a metaphor right so it's it's a it's a metaphor it's it's actually confusion isn't it to bring in um quantum theory other than as a metaphor but it sounds as though you're both doing it as a metaphor and a little tinge of of something like what physicists are talking about as well well I think there's controversy uh you know there are a school of physicists who believe that um uh Quantum Leap for example are examples of discontinuity and uh creativity in Consciousness is also an example of discontinuity and that healing may be a biological phenomenon that relies on biological creativity that at very fundamental levels it may be a discontinuous phenomenon it's something unpredictable that happens in the proliferation of uncertainty so sounds like a sort of poetic use of the word discontinuity it was taking very two very different kinds of discontinuity and and modeling them up maybe that's your interpretation but you know I've spoken to some very really good physicists who feel that uh quantum physics uh is unexplainable in the absence of um Consciousness and the absence of you can't explain things like observer effect and the discontinuity in fact may be Consciousness itself you've often said that there's more to the world than science can reveal um would you like to elaborate on that yeah I think Science is based on a purely objective uh examination of the world and I think reality is both subjective and objective reality is the Observer the process of observation and uh that which we observe and in science we have a particular method of observing which excludes our subjectivity and so I think science ends up being not an examination of nature itself but an examination of the questions we ask of Nature and Nature's response to those questions and if we um exclude subjectivity we're uh excluding a major activity of nature because after all our own subjectivity are also a pattern of behavior of what we call nature would you accept that although in it in the activity of curing as a Healer you can be subjective but when you want to test and demonstrate that your methods work that there you have to be objective and you scientific I think we may have to revise our protocols there because the purely uh objective method uh uh of U studying say medical outcomes uh excludes the very thing we are talking about and that is consciousness you know you can have two patients who have the same disease they see the same physician they have uh the same treatment and they have completely different outcomes some of which of course can be explained through genetics but a lot of it is really inexplicable unless you include the subjectivity of the patient the patient doctor interaction the phenomenon of lyic resonance which is emotional bonding between healer and the one being healed which actually is now known to Res result in homeostasis which is a very important part of the healing process nevertheless if you were to get a thousand patients and divide them up into two groups and half of them are are um treated by lyic resonance or Quantum healing whatever you like and the other half are treated by sort of conventional medicine that you learned as a originally as a doctor um wouldn't you think there's an interest in detecting any difference between the effectiveness of those two treatments objectively there is except that even in those cases 30% of responses are what are called Placebo responses and you know even though we try and control for placebos you can't because uh you really don't know what H is happening in a patient's life whether it's in the midst of a stormy divorce or his children have sickness or he's lost his job all of which are very crucial determinants in uh in the outcome of a disease you can't control everything for every patient but nevertheless you can't control 90% of what's happening in the I mean I mean you presumably do do believe in in control trials um I believe that as we move into the future of uh clinical investigation we'll have determinance of states of Consciousness and then control trials in those States Of Consciousness Because unless you include Consciousness as a very crucial Factor um it's impossible to have a fully mechanistic approach to Healing how do you respond to Skeptics who say that your methods are not are not proven my most uh usual response to Skeptics is I don't believe you no I'm not being phous but uh I think you can never convince a skeptic a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still as the phrase goes uh but I would say that there are over several thousand studies in really good medical journals uh that now concretely established the role of subjectivity in uh in uh in the healing phenomen I'm sure that's right because subjectivity would include psychosomatic medicine would include um uh the placebo effect which is undeniable has an enormous role in infections because infections are related to compromised immune systems which have a lot to do with human suffering uh cancer which has a lot to do with immune compromised immune systems which again have a lot to do with suffering suffering you know 90% of suffering is uh is subjective you can have two people exactly the same amount of injury and they have completely different internal feelings now we have to say that these internal feelings have very very specific biological consequences I don't doubt that for a single moment and I think that most doctors would accept and I think there are many scientific studies that show that patients you know who are waiting for Christmas will not die till Christmas happens I'm sure that's right and so on um so so very important to for for any doctor to take into account subjective influences that that's Undisputed I suppose what is a bit more worrying is the use of I don't know whether to call it mumbo jumbo or or or false you don't understand language you call it Mambo Jambo you know the ancient shamans used language that nobody understands science uses Latin mumbo jumbo that nobody understands question is whether you're using talking about something that's different you have to use a vocabulary and if people are not familiar with the vocabulary it sounds mumbo jumbo yes but what if it's deliberately using language that the patient doesn't understand in order to I think it's very important to make the patient understand that's one of the big failures of modern medicine and the disgruntlement in the people with modern medicine because they don't understand what the doctor is talking about so any time a new uh vocabulary is used it's very important to make it understood but every time you you use a word like Quantum healing which sounds terribly scientific I think I'm able to explain it the only people who criticize me are who actually don't have the experience of what we're talking about and the response from nobody in the lay public calls it mum jumbo only the officios in the world of quantum physics have somehow hijacked the word for their own use oh okay so they've hijacked your word I think what happens is that there are fundamentalists both in science and in in um religion and you know like right now the word uh intelligent design has been hijacked uh by both uh the religious fundamentalists and the school of evolutionists who only use it you know to to attack any form of uh creativity uh other than simple adaptation and you're the World's expert who's talking about memes and other things that influence society which are really you know examples of what Consciousness can do is there danger that you're giving credibility to Old superstitions that are now out moded I think I'm uh trying my best to explain uh wisdom traditions and there is lot of superstition and old traditions that needs to be discarded I look at healing Traditions from all over the world and I would say that 80% of it is superstition and should be discarded but the perennial philosophy of which Aldis Huxley spoke of um stands on its own ground and has a worldview which is very holistic that if we really understood it we wouldn't have all the Eco disasters that we are having and the totally mechanistic approach that human beings are here to conquer nature and not to be an expression of it so if you reject 80% of it how how do you decide which is the 20% that you accept well uh as I go through my experience and my experience of patience and my readings I will look at what really uh could be explained with our current understanding of cosmology or biology or Evolution or Mind Body connections or the role that Consciousness plays in evoking uh biological responses uh the really the major difference between say what I say and the reductionist say is that uh uh mechanisms cannot explain origins of disease you know and to have a purely mechanistic approach of here's an infection use the antibiotic here's the cancer use the chemotherapy this mechanistic approach has led to a lot of disasters and this morning's newspaper I read that 10,000 people die in the UK every year as a result of adverse reactions to drugs and it's also true that 80% of the drugs that we use are of optional or marginal benefit that 36% of patients in hospitals suffer from iatrogenic disease that disease patients have because they went to see a doctor so I think we have to really understand that the mechanistic approach whil it's very good in certain situations is not really uh the total answer because uh mechanisms of disease are not origins of disease origins of disease has to do with how we think how we behave how we interact how uh what goes on in our daily lives the innumerable factors that make for living eating breathing digestion metabolism elimination sensory experience thoughts feelings emotions desires instincts drives memories all of which are part of the human biological organism I'm sure we'd agree that there's an awful lot we don't understand and and science's Quest is to try to sort out to tease out those bits that we don't understand become so arogant in its um in its premise that it has all the answers in a mechanistic approach that it has whilst it has gotten rid of lots of things like polio and malaria and tuberculosis in many parts of the world we are now seeing the emergence of modern epidemics that are a result of some of the things that have come about through science the fact that nosocomial infections are actually more dangerous than infections acquired naturally uh as a result of overuse of antibiotics the fact that uh medical accidents are the equivalent of three jumbo Jets uh crashing uh every other day if any other industry had this record other than medicine we wouldn't tolerate it well I I think it's perhaps unver to blame medicine for that but I let me say that I think science uh some individuals scientists may be arrogant scientists May scientists are not confident that they have all the answers that is absolutely wrong scientists may be confident that they have um the best ways of answering the questions they don't even have all the questions they have the best ways of answering the questions see science has focused on that which can be observed psychology has focused on the process of observation you might say U but there's no science yet that looks at The Observer who's this person what do I you know if I'm a at least in medical Sons I want to know what your disease is but I also know all the contexts and the meanings and the purpose of your living which are responsible for your biology okay thank you thank you I believe you said there's no such thing as a meaningless coincidence would you like to to elaborate on that well I I've picked up on the writings of K Yung and also his friend Wolf Gang POI who said that uh what are called meaningful coincidences are examples of synchronicity and somehow tried to relate that idea to Quantum non-locality which is um uh correlation at fundamental levels of creation for example a human body has 100 trillion cells and each cell does over 100,000 things and every cell has to instantly track what every other cell is doing in order to keep alive how does a human body think thoughts and play a piano and kill germs and remove toxins and make a baby all at once while tracking the movements of the cosmos as its biological rhythms there's no mechanistic explanation for that or even for morphogenesis and differentiation how a single cell divides 50 times to become 100 trillion cells which is more than all the stars in the Milky Way galaxy so at fundamental levels uh of creation I think there is no Randomness there is correlation and a coincidence is an example of that correlation of that acausal non-local relatedness that occurs in this plant or in the movements of the cosmos or in your own biology which is correlated with all these activities what about spirituality and the supernatural I think anything that we don't understand we call it the supernatural once you understand it you call it science so lots of so-called miracles of yesterday are today's science um so I don't believe that there's anything that's Supernatural on the other hand I believe that spirit uh which is synonymous with Consciousness can be a domain of awareness where we experience our universality and in that experience there's love there's compassion there's understanding there's uh context there's meaning there's purpose there's the understanding of what it means to be intuitive to be creative uh to understand the role of intentionality these are aspects of spirituality that are very useful in understanding everything from Behavior to cognition to moods emotions biology environment ecology if you define the supernatural as everything that we don't understand I've got to agree with you there's an aw there's an awful lot we don't understand and science needs to work on that and as you say when we understand it then it becomes it becomes science the danger with Supernatural is that because there are some things that people don't yet understand they assume that they they're on to something that there is something that one day will be understood whereas it could be that great deal of what people don't understand will never be embraced into the into that which we understand it'll simply be rejected like Thor and his hammer and I think uh In Our Lifetime we or in several Generations if we survive the predicted Eco disasters um we probably will not understand and therefore I don't like the word Supernatural myself I think we should always um uh quest to understand that science is one of the great method ologies for understanding uh and maybe one day science will explain why we fall in love or why we are moved by poetry what is imagination and intention and love and compassion maybe well I look forward to that time and I I think you do but I think you didn't quite get my point I expressed it very badly I was trying to say that all over the world there are numerous things which are called Supernatural and which you don't believe in and I don't don't believe in and don't believe they ever will become become science how do we decide when we look at a belief which we encounter today whether it's supernatural in the sense of is all just nonsense and Supernatural or Supernatural in the sense of one day will become a part of science I think belief in any form whether it's belief um in a scientific ideology or Dogma that we're attached to and we're not willing to see it crumble or belief in a religious idea is usually a cover up for insecurity and all believers are dangerous because the they're fundamentalists essentially which have caused havoc in the world on the other hand faith is the willingness to step into the unknown and in that sense you know great scientist is one who has faith has a a certain kind of Faith but one willingness to step into the unknown and relinquish all the ideas that they're attached to whether you know because of that scientific progress yes but not a blind faith which will never be shaken AB we we agree about that yeah absolutely you've been accused of selling false hope what's your answer to that um I think the false hope is an oxymoron either you have hope or you don't and I also think you know we tell our patients believe the diagnosis but don't necessarily believe the prognosis uh prognosis is based on statistics and statistics never tell you about individual outcomes uh for example the average temperature in Oxford for the year doesn't tell me what the temperature is right now or the average income of a person from London doesn't tell me your income if you come from London so to prognosticate is really to sometimes introduce the opposite of the placebo response which is called the nobo response like the Witch Doctor Who points a bone and the patient starts to vomit and get dehydrated in 24 hours and you know we don't think of ourselves as wish doctors because we don't wear leopard skins we wear white coats we don't have feathers around our neck we have stethoscopes we don't dance around fires we dance on cat scanners and we don't use aborigin mantras we use Latin mantras but we have much the same same effect as Wich doctors on our patients that's a bit unfair but we do have that effect you know Mrs Smith you've got cancer you six months to live well she believes you she's going to have 6 months to live what what do you do when Mrs Smith comes to you with we work with oncologists um and um we have oncologists on our staff so we follow conventional treatments protocols if they're effective but at the same time we get deeply into the history and personal history of a patient their relationships their fears their hopes um their work habits you know it's now known that um uh the number one uh time that people die in our civilization is at 9:00 on Monday morning because they hate their jobs now no other animal has been able to accomplish this extraordinary feed so we try and get into every aspect of a patient's life their relationships their job satisfaction uh their inner fears their hopes their dreams and uh then we combine it with a ritual of um deep meditation uh diet um massage um sometimes various herbal uh supplements and antioxidants and conventional treatments and really a lot of spiritual counseling including the fear of death we think that uh many times patients uh feel healed even though they may die from a disease if they learn to go beyond their personal fear of death and you can never do that unless you have a patient have a spiritual experience thank you very much thank you hi everyone 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Channel: The Poetry of Reality with Richard Dawkins

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Length: 24min 52sec (1492 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 13 2024