>> FLORIDA'S OR WOULD LIKE TO THINK OF ITSELF, AS LEADING THE CHARGE IN RESTRICTING THE TEACHING OF MATERIALS, AND SCHOOLS, THAT MAKE MONICA GOVERNOR, RON DESANTIS, FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE. THAT CRUSADE, BEING CHAMPIONED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND OTHERS AS WELL AS WELL, WE SHOWED YOU ONE SCHOOL BOARD IN COLORADO HAS A PROBLEM WITH AUTHOR, AND JOURNALIST TA-NEHISI COATES. READING A QUOTE FROM ONE OF HIS BOOKS AT A MEETING, STRIPPED OF CONTEXT, AS A SORT OF CONDEMNATION OF CRITICAL EXAMINATIONS OF RACE IN AMERICA. I WOULD LIKE TO BRING IN THE AUTHOR HIMSELF, TA-NEHISI COATES, ONE OF THE NATIONAL BOOK, AWARD FELLOWSHIP, AND AUTHOR OF SEVERAL BEST BOOKS INCLUDING THE ONE IN QUESTION, BETWEEN THE WORLD OF ME. GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE. >> THANK YOU FOR THAT INTRODUCTION. IT WAS VERY KIND. >> IT'S ALL TRUE. WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU SEE THIS CHAMBER INTERROGATION OF YOUR TAXED, OF A TEACHER, OR A SCHOOL, NOT HAVING TO DEFEND A SINGLE QUOTE I THINK GOD THAT THE GUY ASKING TO QUESTION ISN'T A TEACHER. YOU CAN PULL A SENTENCE OUT OF ANY TEXT AND SAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS OBVIOUSLY, ONE OF THE BIG ARGUMENTS BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME IS THAT RACE IS A SOCIAL FICTION. WHEN WE SAY WHITE PEOPLE WILL CEASE TO EXIST, THE IDEA IS THAT THE CATEGORY WILL BE. THE HOPE IS THAT BLACK PEOPLE WOULD TO. THAT'S THE CASE THE STORY MAKES. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WHITE PEOPLE WILL BE PHYSICALLY IRAD A CATERED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH. IF SOMEBODY DOES WANT TO DO THAT, THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. >> THE WAY THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT RACE, BOTH BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME, AND IN YOUR NOVEL, IF PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY THINK THEIR WEIGHT, OR BELIEVE THEY ARE WHITE, IT IS A BELIEF. IT IS A BELIEF SYSTEM. A SOCIAL CONSTRUCTION, A WAY OF PEOPLE CONSTRUCTING A SOCIAL REALITY TOGETHER, IMBUED WITH HISTORY, AND MATERIAL CONSEQUENCES BUT, FUNDAMENTALLY, IS NOT A BIOLOGICAL REALITY. >> YES. THAT'S THE ARGUMENT BEING MADE. I THINK THE ELEMENTS OF THAT BELIEF SYSTEM IS SEEN IN THE SLATE OF LAWS. TAKE FOR EXAMPLE THIS NOTION THAT STUDENTS SHOULD NOT BE EXPOSED TO ANYTHING THAT MAKES THEM FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE, DISCOMFORT, OR ANY SENSE, AND THIS IS MY FAVORITE, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, FOR ANYTHING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED IN HISTORY. ANYONE WHO HAS EVER STUDIED HISTORY IN ANY SERIOUS WAY KNOWS, YOU FEEL A RANGE OF EMOTIONS. 70% OF THE TIME, THOSE EMOTIONS ARE NOT POSITIVE, OR EMOTIONS THAT MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD. THE GOAL OF EDUCATION IS NOT TO TELL YOU THAT THE WORLD IS SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS. THE GOAL IS ENLIGHTENMENT. THE GOAL IS A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF HUMANITY. THIS IS WHAT YOU, HOPEFULLY, TRY TO GET ACROSS TO STUDENTS. >> THAT IS WHAT IS SO PERVERSE, RIGHT THIS ENTIRE BACKLASH WAS SHEPHERDED IN, UNDER THE COVER OF CRITICAL THINKING, THE LEFT TRYING TO INDOCTRINATE PEOPLE, BUT I JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP FROM JONATHAN KOCH, SO SOCIOLOGIST ASIDE BOOK TO, AND HE SAID HE'S TRYING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING IN THE CLASSROOM. WITH THESE TWO CULLISON'S OWN RACE THAT HE HAD TO CANCEL, BECAUSE OF THIS LAW. >> I TRY TO BRING LOTS OF PERSPECTIVES, AND ENCOURAGE OTHER STUDENTS TO DO SO. FOR EXAMPLE, WE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. I MAY PRESENT AN ARTICLE THAT TALKS ABOUT BY SAYING, THIS IS WHAT IT IS, HERE IS ALLIANCES NEGATIVE, AND ANOTHER WHO PRESENTS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VIEW, AND WE TALK ABOUT IT IN CLASS. I DON'T WANT THEM TO SWALLOW SOMETHING. I TELL THEM ALL THE TIME, DON'T TAKE WHAT I SAY TO BE THE TRUTH. GO OUT, DO YOUR RESEARCH, AND I WANT YOU TO BE CRITICAL THINKERS. I'M ACTIVELY FIGHTING AGAINST A CHARACTER -- THE CARICATURE THAT YOU ARE EXPRESSING IN MY CLASSROOM. I DO NOT LEAVE WITH MY OPINIONS. RARELY, ALMOST NEVER, SHARE MY OWN OPINION. I'M MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN THE THOUGHTS AND IDEAS THAT THE STUDENTS BRING TO CLASS. >> THIS IS A GUY WHO DIDN'T TEACH TWO COURSES AT THE LARGEST STATE SCHOOL IN FLORIDA BECAUSE OF THE DESANTIS LAW. >> THE FASTENING TO ME AS WASN'T IT TWO YEARS AGO THAT THERE IS A NOTION THAT KIDS ON CAMPUS WE'RE TOO SOFT THAT THEY NEEDED TO BE CODDLED? NOW WE HAVE LITERAL LAWS SAYING THAT. IT IS NOT BELIEFS, IDEAS, BUT ON THE BOOK LAWS SAYING, IT IS STUDENTS. IN AN AP CLASS, OF ALL PLACES, SOMEHOW, TOO SENSITIVE TO BE EXPOSED TO IDEAS THAT MAKE THEM SAD. IT IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS IN THIS EDUCATION. IT WAS HOW A UNIVERSITY, AND I EXPOSED MY KIDS TO ALL SORTS OF THINGS, FROM ALL SORTS OF PERSPECTIVES, THAT I DO NOT HOLD MYSELF. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN BE A BLACK WRITER AND SAY, I WILL NEVER READ ANYBODY WHO IS RACIST, ANYBODY WHO SEXIST. YOU JUST CAN'T LIVE. YOU CAN'T PRACTICE AIRCRAFT LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW? >> THE IRONY IS YOU AND I, PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE SAYING, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WRITERS WE, LIKE MIKE, WRITERS WHOSE POLITICS WE DON'T LIKE, BUT THAT GUY CAN WRITE. >> THE CRAFT THE CRAFT YOU NEED TO DO THAT. EVEN IF YOU COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH A PERSON, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH YOU DON'T READ THEM HOW DO YOU KNOW? ONE THEY ARE DEEPER THAN THAT, AND I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE LOOKED AT THIS, LIKE THE FLORIDA LAW, BUT THERE IS THE EDUCATION ASPECT TO IT, BUT ALSO THE DEGREE TO WHICH IT, IS ESSENTIALLY, STIPULATING A CIVIC CREATED. OFFICIALLY FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA, THAT IS AN IDEOLOGY. HERE'S AN EXAMPLE. HERE IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT TEACH IN FLORIDA UNDER FLORIDA LAW NOW. ALTHOUGH, THE LAW IS CURRENTLY ENJOINED. SO TRAVERSE SHOES AS MERIT, EXCELLENCE, NEUTRALITY, OBJECTIVITY, AND RACIAL COLOR BLINDNESS OR RACIST, OR SEX, OR WERE CREATED BY MEMBERS OF A PARTICULAR RACE, COLOR, SEX, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN TO OPPRESS MEMBERS OF ANOTHER RACE, COLOR, SEX, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN. >> YOU MAY OR MAY NOT AGREE WITH THAT IS A THESIS, BUT IT IS NOW THE OFFICIAL STATE CREED OF FLORIDA. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT RACIAL COLOR BLINDNESS WAS AWAY AS FURTHERING RACIAL OPPRESSION. >> I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. HONESTLY, WHEN I READ THAT, IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMEBODY ELSE WHO WAS AN ACTIVIST WROTE THAT, AND FED IT PUT LEGISLATURES. IT IS SO WE ARE REALLY SPECIFIC. YOU CAN ALMOST DETECT THE HAND OF SOMEBODY ELSE THERE. NO NEED TO NAME NAMES. IT IS ABSURD, IT WAS ALSO SHOULDN'T BE INVOLVED IN THE GARDEN SYSTEM. >> STEP BACK A SECOND, HE WROTE THIS PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC ABOUT TRUMP, CALLING HIM THE FIRST WHITE PRESIDENT, OF COURSE, MAKING IT TONGUE-IN-CHEEK ABOUT HOW WHITENESS IS CONSTRUCTED ONLY IN THE BACKLASH TO THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT COULD THERE BE A WHITE PRESIDENT, AS WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S IN CONTRAST. WE HAVE THE PANDEMIC, AND THERE IS THIS HISTORIC, BIOMETRICS, PEOPLE COUNTING IN THE STREETS. MAYBE THE LARGEST CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTS WE'VE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY. THIS INCREDIBLY STRONG BACKLASH AGAINST IT, PLAYING OUT IN PLACES LIKE THIS. IT WAS IN THE DEATH OF TYRE NICHOLS AT THE HANDS OF POLICE. THEY'RE SEEING THE ORIGINAL PUSH AND PULL. >> THEY'RE GOING TO BE EXCITED, AND HAVE THIS BE WHY. IN TERMS OF THESE BACKLASHES, IT IS MOST FEROCIOUS WHEN THE FORCES THAT WOULD LIKE TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO ARE MOST AFRAID. IT IS A REDEMPTION STANDARD RECONSTRUCTION, AND UNDERSTANDING RECONSTRUCTION AS AN ACTUAL THREAT. YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BACKLASH AFTER THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING HOW MUCH CERTAIN PEOPLE PERCEIVE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT. IT'S THE SAME THING HERE. IT IS ALL GOING TO STEP BACK. IF YOU LOOK AT THE CULTURE, IT IS THIS AUTHORITY, AND IT WAS A MOVIE LIKE WAKANDA FOREVER, ON THE VERGE OF MAKING ONE BILLION DOLLARS, MATTERS, BECAUSE PEOPLE LOOK AROUND, AND THEY SEE WHO IS HOLDING -- IS THE SAME THING FOR BARACK OBAMA. I DID THE EQUIVALENT OF AMERICAN ROYALTY, HELD BY SOMEBODY WHO, ONLY GENERATIONS AGO, CONCEPTION WOULD HAVE BEEN, ILLEGAL. THIS DISRUPTS THE PERCEPTION OF WHAT AMERICA'S, AND FRIGHTENS PEOPLE. SO, I TAKE IT AS A SIGN OF STRENGTH, AND IT IS ALL GOING TO HAPPEN. IT WAS ALWAYS IN THE FANTASIES. >> IT IS DANGEROUS TO. >> I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THAT, NOT AT ALL. >> YOU ARE SEEING IT IN SCHOOLS, YOU ARE SEEING IT IN CERTAIN WAYS IN WHICH CRIMINAL JUSTICE LAWS, BACKLASH AGAINST BAIL REFORM, ALL OF THESE PLACES WERE PROGRESSES MADE, YOU CAN SEE THE BACKLASH POLITICS BEING MARSHALED AGAIN. >> IT IS STICKING WITH THE 16 19 PROJECT TO END UP IN AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THINK ABOUT THAT. CAN YOU REMEMBER ENDING UP IN AN EXECUTIVE WATER? ANYTHING THAT I'VE REDUCED HAS NEVER HAD ANY PRESIDENT CARE ABOUT IT THAT MUCH. IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, AND IT IS STICKING IN THE MUD. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS NOT DANGEROUS, BUT IT'S ALSO A STATEMENT ON HOW THREATENED THAT THEY CAN BE FIELD. >> I AM CONSTANTLY TRYING TO PUT THIS TWO TRACKS AHEAD OF THE MATERIAL, AND THE IDEOLOGICAL. IT IS FORCED WITH THIS MOMENTUM THAT THESE IDEAS, THAT THERE IDEAS ABOUT RACIAL EQUALITY, AND WHAT IS THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP WHAT IS HAPPENING -- HAVE WE CLOSED THE LIFE EXPECTANCY GAP BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE? I AM ALWAYS WRESTLING IN MY HEAD THOSE TWO THINGS, BECAUSE IT DOES FEEL LIKE THE IDEAS HAVE BEEN ASCENDANCY, AND A FORCE, BECAUSE THEY ARE CHANGING. YOU LOOK AT THESE MATERIAL ASPECTS AND IT SEEMS LESS ENCOURAGING. >> THOSE ON THE OTHER STEP SIDE UNDERSTAND THIS IN REGARDS TO ONE ANOTHER. IT IS COMING TO LESS INGRAINED IN THE BODY POLITIC, WHEN FOLKS LOOK AROUND IF THEY REALLY DO START TO ASK QUESTIONS. THEY REALLY DO START ASKING QUESTIONS IN A WAY THAT THEY DIDN'T VOTE FOR. YOU CAN CHIP AWAY, CHIP AWAY, CHIP AWAY, AND YOU CAN SEE PROGRESS AND WHAT IT WOULD STILL BE THERE TO. WHITE SUPREMACY IS STILL THERE, EVEN AS THE FOUNDATION IS CHIPPED AWAY. >> THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THE PEAK OF RACIAL POLARIZATION IN AMERICA HAPPENS UNDER BULLOCK BARACK OBAMA, IN RECENT TIMES, JUST IN TERMS OF SORTING. IT STARTS TO DE-POLARIZED ALONG THE LINES OF RACE, AS YOU GET FURTHER AWAY FROM BARACK OBAMA. PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS ARGUMENT, TRUE OR NOT, I THINK THE DATA IS A LITTLE UNCLEAR ON THAT. DO YOU THINK THAT THE POST TRUMP ERA, THAT, THOSE LINES REMAIN AS HARDEST EVER >> IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION. IT'S A DIFFICULTY TO ANNOUNCE IT. BARACK OBAMA HAD A CERTAIN TYPE OF CRITICAL MASS. THEY WERE SUDDENLY MUCH MORE FRIGHTENED, MUCH MORE ACTIVE, AND I THINK IT IS DEFINITELY TRUE. THERE IS THE CURRENT SAYING THAT THINGS ARE MORE SEPARATED, AND I THINK FROM A BACK PERSPECTIVE, WE WOULD FIND THIS HARD TO RECKON UNDER BARACK OBAMA. CERTAINLY, I DID NOT FEEL ANY MORE DISTANT. WE ALWAYS FELT DISTANCED. DO WE FEEL MORE DISTANCE UNDER BARACK OBAMA I DON'T KNOW. >> YOU COULD MAKE AN ARGUMENT, THERE IS MORE PROXIMITY. >> I WOULD AGREE, AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. EXACTLY PART OF THE PROBLEM. >> THAT WAS THE SOURCE -- >> YES, TO THE EXTENT THAT I THINK WE COULD COME UP WITH ANOTHER TERM THAN POLARIZATION, BUT LET'S JUST SAY, I PREFER THE TERM FEAR. FOR A CERTAIN SECTOR OF WHITE AMERICA BEING AFRAID, PROXIMITY WAS A PROBLEM. THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK THE SYMBOLISM OF IT IS THE PROBLEM. THAT'S NOT THE MATERIAL, YOU'RE CORRECT ABOUT THAT, BUT I DO THINK THAT THE SYMBOLISM THREATENS PEOPLE BECAUSE IT CORRECTLY IDENTIFIES IT'S A SYMBOLISM THAT REGARDS ALL OF IT THERE'S A REASON WHY FOLKS CAME WITH IDEOLOGIES TO JUSTIFY THIS. >> I'M THINKING ABOUT THIS WITH ILHAN OMAR, IT WAS ALWAYS IN THE TERM. IT IS SO WILD TO ME THIS CULTURAL SUPERNOVA, IT IS GOING AROUND THE WORLD, AND YOU HEAR AMERICAN POP SONGS, TO SEE AMERICA MOVIE STARS, AMERICAN SHOWS, AND AS MUCH A DISPROPORTIONATE OF CONTENT PRODUCED BY BLACK PEOPLE. AFRICAN AMERICANS PRODUCE A CRAZY PIE CHART OF WHAT IS GLOBAL POP CULTURE. BUT, TO HAVE ILHAN OMAR AS THE SYMBOL OF, HERE IS A WOMAN WHO CAME TO THE U.S. IS A REFUGEE, FLEEING THE WAR, BLACK WITH THE WOMAN, SHE WEARS THE JOB, AND AS A MEMBER OF THE U.S. CONGRESS, AND WHAT THAT MEANS SYMBOLICALLY. THEN, TO SANCTION HER, AND WHAT THAT MEANS, SYMBOLICALLY. IT IS NOT A MISTAKE. THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS PERFORMANCE. IT IS GOING TO BE SAID, WHAT YOU OFTEN SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT VOTING DOESN'T MATTER. IF YOU LOOK AT WEALTHY PEOPLE, THEY HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST VOTERS. >> IF IT DOESN'T MATTER, WHY DO ALL OF THESE WEALTHY PEOPLE VOTE >> GO AROUND PALM SPRINGS AND SEE WHAT THEY ARE VOTING. >> I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT SYMBOLISM. ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN POWER CARE ABOUT IT IF IT HAS NO POWER? IF IT'S ULTIMATELY IRRELEVANT, WHY ARE YOU SO FOCUSED ON IT? THEY'RE MAKING SOME SORT OF TACTICAL ERROR, IT IS FOOLISH, AND NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE RIGHT THING AND UNDERGARMENTS A LOT OF THE MATERIAL POWER THAT THEY ENJOY IN THE FIRST PLACE. >> WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON THESE DAYS? >> WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO ME. >> YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME. >> I'M WORKING ON SUPERMAN. THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING. NOBODY SEES ME. IT'S CALLED SUPERMAN. YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW BIG OF A JOB THIS. >> THIS IS THE ULTIMATE SYMBOL, RIGHT >> I AM WORKING ON SUPERMAN. I'M NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE, YES. >> I GUESS THIS QUESTION, THIS BACK AND FORTH, THE FORCE OF THESE IDEAS, I HAVE BEEN STUCK. AFTER TYRE NICHOLS DEATH, I AM RUNNING THROUGH THIS -- >> YOU WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO, THAT'S PART OF YOUR JOB. WE DID. WE TOLD PEOPLE ON STAFF, YOU DON'T HAVE TO. YOU WATCHED IT? >> YES. IT'S INCREDIBLY SAD UNSETTLING. WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO COME BACK ON, AND HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON IS, OKAY, IF YOU MAKE ME THE KING OF MEMPHIS FOR A DAY, OR THE HEAD OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, OR I HAVE A MAGIC WAND TO SOLVE IT, THERE ARE CERTAIN PROBLEMS IN AMERICAN LIFE OR A FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO BE ON THAT THAT ONE I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE TIMES WHERE I DID, BUT NOW, IF YOU SAID, OKAY, HERE IS THE MAGIC WAND, GO FIX IT >> THE TOUGH THING, I THINK, IS IF CRIME RATES GO UP, THE ANSWER IS, WE NEED MORE COPS, AND WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL. IF CRIME RATE GOES DOWN, THAT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE A TON OF COPS, AND HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN JAIL. >> IT'S A ONE-WAY RACKET. IT'S ALWAYS THE STICK. THERE IS NEVER ANOTHER ANSWER. >> YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT MAKE YOU PESSIMISTIC. WHEN I LOOK AT THE EDIFICE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE IN THIS COUNTRY -- I MEAN, WE DID SOMETHING. IT WILL BE VERY HARD TO UNWIND. >> TO GO BACK TO YOUR POINT, THERE IS PROGRESS, AND I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT IT. THERE HAS BEEN A UBS REDUCTION IN INCARCERATION RATES, BUT THERE'S A LOT THERE
