I APPRECIATE THIS. >> WE DO HAVE TO STUDENTS WITH US. WE WANTED TO GET REACTION ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS DEBATE FROM STUDENTS RIGHT NOW. BUT MISSOURI PRO-AFFIRMATIVE ACTION STUDENT AT BOTH DUKE AND AT UNK CHAPEL HILL. AND I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOUR REACTION IS. I KNOW THAT YOU WERE HOPING THIS WOULD GO THE OTHER WAY. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED IN THEIR DECISION SO FAR THAT THEY SAY CAN'T SIMPLY BE SORT OF A CHECK MARK BASED ON IDENTITY BUT MUST BE PART OF A STUDENT'S NARRATIVE? WHAT THEY PRESENTED THE SCHOOL AS AS PART OF THEIR BIOGRAPHY? WELL I WOULD SAY THAT I'M I'M DISAPPOINTED, BUT I'M NOT SURPRISED. >> AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HOLISTIC ADMISSIONS, TO SAY THAT YOU CAN INCLUDE A STUDENT'S IDENTITY, THE STUDENT, THE PERSON BEHIND THE PAPERS AND THE GRADES AND THE TEST SCORES, THAT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO INCLUDE RACE, WHICH IS SUCH AN ENCOMPASSING PART OF AT LEAST MY IDENTITY AS AN UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITY. IT IT MAKES ME FEEL UPSET. BUT WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION GOES AWAY FROM UNIVERSITIES. WE CAN LOOK AT CALIFORNIA, WE CAN LOOK AT MICHIGAN, WHO HAS ALREADY BANNED IT AND SEE HOW THEIR STATE FLAGSHIPS LACK A ASTOUNDING NUMBER OF BLACK AND LATINO STUDENTS. THE ONE THING THAT REALLY IS, IS MAKING ME SAD, I'LL JUST SAY TODAY IS THAT MY IDENTITY HAS TO BE MY RACE. YOU KNOW, THE STRUGGLES THAT I'VE GONE THROUGH, THE TRAUMA I'VE GONE THROUGH AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN IN THE UNITED STATES. IF I WERE APPLYING TO COLLEGE TODAY, I WOULD HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT THOSE TRAUMAS IN MY COMMON ESSAY. I WOULD HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT THOSE TRAUMAS AND THOSE VERY HARD EXPERIENCES FOR ADMISSIONS OFFICERS TO ACCEPT THE OVERWHELMING TRUTH THAT WE ALL KNOW, WHICH IS THAT IT IS HARD TO BE A BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR. >> AND ME, THAT'S THE POINT JOHN CARROLL WAS MAKING MOMENTS AGO, THAT STUDENTS MIGHT NOW BE FORCED TO WRITE ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES OR ABOUT PARTICULAR EXPERIENCES THAT PERHAPS THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE INCLUDED IN THEIR ESSAYS BECAUSE THEY THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED. NOW MOVING FORWARD. AND TO PUT ON THAT PIECE OF PAPER A KEY PART OF THEIR IDENTITY, THAT'S THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE. >> YEAH. I'M SAYING THAT LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS APPLYING TO COLLEGE LAST YEAR, I HAD PUT DOWN THAT I'M AFRICAN-AMERICAN. I HAD PUT DOWN THAT I COME FROM A NIGERIAN FAMILY. AND BEING FROM THE AREA THAT I WAS, EVERYONE WHO IS INVOLVED IN COLLEGE ADMISSIONS KNOWS THAT I WAS BY BEING BLACK, MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE THINGS SUCH AS UNDER-RESOURCED SCHOOLS, WHICH I WENT TO GROWING UP, MORE LIKELY TO HAVE TEACHERS THAT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE ME, WHICH WAS THE CASE IN MY SCHOOL. I DID NOT HAVE A BLACK TEACHER AND SO I THINK THAT WHEN IT COMES TO KIDS WHO ARE APPLYING IN THE NEXT CYCLE, IT IS GOING TO BE HARD TO SEE THEMSELVES AS SOMEONE OUTSIDE OF THEIR RACE. I FEEL LIKE THAT'S WHAT ALLOWED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BY IT BEING LIMITED IN THE PAST TO JUST BEING ONE FACTOR CONSIDERED AMONGST A HOST OF OTHERS IN A HOLISTIC PROCESS. IT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE THE DECIDING FACTOR AFTER BERKELEY VERSUS UC DAVIS. I BELIEVE, THOUGH MANY PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS. AND I THINK THAT NOW THAT STUDENTS ARE FORCED TO TALK ABOUT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION AND THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH IT, THEY'RE OBSTACLES WITH IT IN THEIR COLLEGE ESSAYS. THEY'RE NOW BEING KNOWN BY THEIR RACE FIRST AND BY THEIR ACADEMICS AND OTHERWISE. OTHER EXPERIENCES SECOND, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO PUT THAT IN THE FOREFRONT TO PROVE THEIR EXPERIENCES THROUGH RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES. >> MISSOURI, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR PERSPECTIVE. WE STICK WITH US HERE AS WE CONTINUE THE COVERAGE. I WANT TO BRING IN ALEX SHEA FOR PERSPECTIVE. BROWN UNIVERSITY STUDENT. I KNOW, ALEX, YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS. YOU WERE HOPING THAT THE SUPREME COURT WOULD MOVE IN THE DIRECTION THAT IT DID TODAY. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS? >> RIGHT. WELL, I THINK THIS IS A WIN FOR STUDENTS ALL ACROSS AMERICA, BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T BE JUDGING STUDENTS BASED ON THEIR RACE WHEN WE'RE DECIDING WHO GETS INTO WHAT SCHOOLS. I THINK THAT I BELIEVE THAT YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST IS MISTAKEN IN THIS REGARD, BECAUSE I THINK THAT BY GETTING RID OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION NOW, WE LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUAL STUDENT AND WHAT THEY'VE ACCOMPLISHED AND WE CAN LOOK AT WHAT BARRIERS THEY'VE OVERCOME. BUT BUT WE VIEW THEM AS AN INDIVIDUAL FIRST AND FOREMOST, AS OPPOSED TO JUST VIEWING THEM AS AN A BLOB IN AN AMORPHOUS, LARGER RACIAL GROUP AS OPPOSED TO JUST UNDER THIS NEW SYSTEM, WE GET TO VIEW STUDENTS FOR WHO THEY ARE AS INDIVIDUALS. AND I THINK THAT'S A MUCH BETTER WAY TO GO FORWARD ON THIS TOPIC. >> YOU HEARD BHOOMI'S POINT THERE, THOUGH, THAT THIS NOW FORCES STUDENTS IF THEY WANT THE SCHOOL TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT RACE IN SOME FASHION OR FORM THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO NOW WRITE ABOUT THIS RIGHT? >> WELL, I THINK THAT FUNDAMENTALLY RIGHT FOR MOST PEOPLE, RACE IS JUST IT'S JUST A CHARACTERISTIC. IT'S SORT OF THE WAY THAT YOUR BODY MANIFESTS. I THINK THAT IN SOME FOR SOME STUDENTS THAT DOES PLAY A ROLE IN HOW THEY EXPERIENCE THE WORLD. BUT FOR SOME STUDENTS, IT DOESN'T. AND I THINK THAT ALLOWING THEM THAT OPTION TO EXPRESS THAT IN IN AN ESSAY, FOR INSTANCE, AFFORDS MUCH MORE FREEDOM BECAUSE RACE DOESN'T AFFECT EVERYBODY THE SAME WAY. AND TO JUST HAVE A BLANKET POLICY WHERE EVERYBODY'S RACE IS CONSIDERED NO MATTER WHAT, I DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE BECAUSE IT IMPACTS DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I FIND THAT A LOT OF THESE ARGUMENTS OFTENTIMES IN FAVOR OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ARE SOMEWHAT INCONGRUOUS BECAUSE I'VE HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT SAY LIKE, HEY, AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, IT'S A GOOD WAY TO OVERCOME PAST DISCRIMINATION. BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE AS AN ASIAN AMERICAN, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE HOW THAT WORKS FOR ME BECAUSE IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR ASIAN AMERICANS TO GAIN ADMITTANCE TO SCHOOLS THAN FOR WHITE STUDENTS, FOR INSTANCE. AND I DON'T THINK THAT YOU'LL SEE IN THE PAST ANY INSTANCE OF ASIANS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST WHITES. SO FOR ME, THAT SORT OF JUST FALLS FLAT. I'M GOING TO BROWN NEXT YEAR AND I'M HAPPY THAT THE ADMISSIONS OFFICERS AT BROWN TOOK ME FOR WHATEVER REASON. BUT IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL A LITTLE BIT UNCOMFORTABLE KNOWING THAT IN THAT ADMISSION OFFICE, WHEN THEY WERE DECIDING WHETHER THEY WERE GOING TO ACCEPT ME, REJECT ME, THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERING MY RACE BECAUSE I THINK THAT THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I CAN CONTROL OR THAT ANYONE CAN CONTROL. AND I THINK THAT IT'S UNFAIR TO JUDGE SOMEONE BASED ON THAT. WHEN THERE ARE REALLY SO MANY BETTER WAYS TO JUDGE STUDENTS BASED ON THEIR CHARACTER, BASED ON THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS, RACE. IT'S JUST IT'S JUST HOW YOU'RE BORN AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT. >> ALEX SHEA, WE APPRECIATE YOUR PERSPECTIVE. I WANT TO GO BACK TO BIRMINGHAM, OSORI NOW, YOU'VE HEARD THE OTHER SIDE. I KNOW YOU'VE DEBATED THIS ON ON YOUR CAMPUSES AS WELL. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT ARGUMENT? >> WELL, I THINK THAT ALEX SAID SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING, WHICH IS THAT RACE FOR SOME PEOPLE IS JUST A CHARACTERISTIC LIKE RACE FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE ME, RACE FOR LATINO STUDENTS. IT'S NOT JUST A CHARACTERISTIC. IT'S SOMETHING THAT DETERMINES THE FUNDING THAT I GET TO, REPRESENTATION THAT I LACK. AND I THINK THAT IT'S THIS IS A COMMON ARGUMENT THAT I'VE HEARD ON MY CAMPUS THAT IT IS HARDER FOR ASIAN STUDENTS TO GET IN, THAT THEY ARE BEING HURT BY THIS. AND, YOU KNOW, THE ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF THAT ARE BOTH VALID. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT WHEN I GO ON THE COLLEGE CAMPUS THAT I CURRENTLY ATTEND, WHEN I GO ON DUKE'S CAMPUS, WE'RE ABOUT 7% BLACK. WE'RE ABOUT 30% ASIAN. AND SO TO THINK THAT THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS THAT STUDENTS CAN'T CONTROL WHEN THEY ARE APPLYING TO COLLEGE, THEY CAN'T CONTROL THEIR LEGACY. STUDENT BUT THAT HELPS THEM GET INTO SCHOOL. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THATTS ARE RICH, BUT THAT HELPSTO AFFORD TO GO TO SCHOOLS LIKE DUKE OR BROWN. AND SO I THINK THAT IT'S VERY, UM, SHE SHORTSIGHTED TO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT REGARDLESS IF YOU'RE WHITE, ASIAN, BLACK, HISPANIC RACE DOES HAVE AN IMPACT ON YOUR LIFE, ON YOUR IDENTITY AND HOW YOU NAVIGATE THROUGH THE UNITED STATES. AND SO TO HAVE A HOLISTIC ADMISSIONS PROCESS THAT DOESN'T CONSIDER THAT HUGE PART, AN UNMOVABLE PART OF A STUDENT'S IDENTITY THROUGH THE COLLEGE APPLICATION PROCESS, UNLESS A STUDENT CHOOSES TO WRITE ABOUT THEIR TRAUMAS, I THINK IS NOT HOW WE GO ABOUT MAKING DIVERSITY IN OUR UNDERGRADUATE INSTITUTIONS AND IN ALL OUR INSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES. >> AND ALEX, I'LL LET YOU RESPOND TO HER, HER QUESTIONING OF YOUR LINE ABOUT IT'S SIMPLY A CHARACTERISTIC LIKE SHE'S SAYING, THAT'S A FLAWED ARGUMENT . RIGHT? >> RIGHT. WELL, I THINK THAT THIS WHOLE BUSINESS, WHEN WE'RE DECIDING, BASED ON RACE, AT LEAST AS A FACTOR, THAT'S SORT OF ASSUMES THAT ALL PEOPLE OF A CERTAIN RACE ARE SORT OF MONOLITHIC, THAT MINORITIES ARE MONOLITHIC. AND I KNOW AT LEAST FOR ASIAN AMERICANS, IS SORT OF THE WAY THAT WE'RE PERCEIVED IS HARD WORKING, NO CHARISMA, NO CHARACTER. AND YOU SEE THAT IN THOSE IN THE HARVARD CASE. YOU'LL SEE THAT THAT'S HOW THEY VIEW ASIAN AMERICAN STUDENTS. THEY SEE US SORT OF AS BLAND AND SORT OF LACKING CHARACTER. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SORT OF WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL MINORITY GROUPS WHEN YOU VIEW US FIRST AND FOREMOST AS A CERTAIN RACE AND THEN JUST LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS THAT WE HAVE LATER. I THINK WE SHOULD FLIP THAT AROUND AND VIEW OUR INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS REGARDLESS OF WHAT RACE WE ARE. FIRST AND FOREMOST, I THINK THAT'S THAT'S THE MOST APPROPRIATE WAY TO DO THIS, BECAUSE THERE AGAIN, YOU CAN LOOK AT RECOMMENDATION LETTERS. YOU CAN LOOK AT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER THINGS THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT. AND I KNOW THAT BHOOMI WAS MENTIONING SORT OF THIS HOLISTIC ADMISSIONS PROCESS, BUT IN THAT PROCESS YOU HAVE SO MUCH DATA, YOU HAVE ACCESS TO YOUR PARENTS INCOME. FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU MIGHT NEED FINANCIAL AID, YOU HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION ABOUT THE SCHOOL DISTRICT THAT YOU GREW UP IN. AND I THINK THAT INFORMATION ACTUALLY GIVES YOU KNOWLEDGE OF THE STUDENT SITUATION AND SORT OF WHAT ADVANTAGES OR DISADVANTAGES THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE IN LIFE, BECAUSE ANY STUDENT OF ANY RACE AT AN UNDERFUNDED SCHOOL DISTRICT WON'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES THAT SOMEBODY AT A VERY HIGHLY FUNDED SCHOOL DISTRICT. AND SO BY LOOKING AT WHAT OPPORTUNITIES THEY HAD AVAILABLE AND HOW THEY WERE ABLE TO MAKE THE MOST OF THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES YOU TO LOOK AT RACE WHEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY PINPOINT THE EXPERIENCES THAT A STUDENT MIGHT HAVE HAD THROUGH OTHER FACTORS THAT DON'T INVOLVE RACE. >> I APPRECIATE IT. ALEX SHAY, BIRMINGHAM, MISSOURI. REALLY IMPORTANT TO HEAR FROM THE YOUNG PEOPLE. DEEPLY PERSONAL. THIS ISSUE WILL BE IN THE YEARS AHEAD WITH NOW THE SUPREME COURT ROLLING BACK SOME 40 YEARS OF PRECEDENT IN THIS COUNTRY THAT ALLOWED COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO USE RACE AS
