St. John of the Cross and the Dark Night: CarmelCast Episode 11

praise be Jesus Christ welcome to episode 11 of karma cast my name is father Michael Joseph of Cinque Torres and caramel cast is a production of the Institute of Carmelite Studies publications for more information you can go to ICS publications dot o RG and today we're very happy to have with us brother John Mary if Jesus crucified welcome thank you it's good to be here I think it's actually significant that the two of us are here together because now our secret is out okay we're not actually the same person yeah father Michael dose of the night we were often confused I mean this is the first time that we have lived in the same monastery and so I think we kind of had this this just like unspoken kind of we just assumed that we wouldn't always correct people when they confused us we just kind of like then let them go but now here we are both in the same the same place so it could be special effects you know that's it's possible these days yeah we even had there's a friar who visited here who was from another part of the country and this was before father Michael Joseph arrived and he just acted so happy to see me and I met him before but he just acted very happy to see me like we were very good buddies and he kept calling me father father father and so for a whole week he was visiting here and finally towards the end of the week he said father why don't they let you celebrate Mass anymore I'm not a priest and he looked at me he said yes you are oh that's what I realize is that I'm not following Michael Joseph the whole week thought that was you wow what a privilege that I would be confused for you and not vice versa yeah I'm sorry I'm sorry gotta go but here we are they yep and it I mean it's really our fault right you cut your hair the same way he wears the same clothes it's it's but it's good cool man well again you know it's great great that you can be here you were here last season so much and today I think you know we'll talk about one of your special loves Saint John of the Cross and in the dark night what is it about John the cross you think that fascinates people so much and and and maybe that scares people a little bit too as I've actually I mean I feel like I've studied John of the Cross now for several years and I'm really kind of now devoting myself completely to just studying his life and his writing and it's just amazing just thinking now even just preparing to come here I was realizing just how little I actually know right I have put so much time and work into it and I still feel like I'm just beginning because he's yeah his teaching it's just it's so so endless there's just such depth there and and I think in particular is his his teachings on the dark night that just it really captivates people's imaginations you have people there's just something about that that just draws people in and I think of even myself when I was first introduced to st. John of the Cross I was I mean I was I was fairly young I was in college and I had heard about this st. and so of course the first thing I do is I find his writings and his writing his commentary is called the Dark Knight and I start reading and I've heard stories of so many people who do that exact same thing yeah there's just something about that title and that image that is just really captivating but that's not necessarily like the best place to begin with John yeah well I think that like I said that's kind of the the icon of John in a sense you hear the Dark Knight you hear people using it in all kinds of context to the Dark Knight so it shows that the beauty and the power of this symbol but it's not yeah it's not an easy place to begin and so you know maybe you could just say like why it is wise you think that people do feel connected to this symbol of the dark night yeah yeah and I think John really he's an example of of really all Carmel all the Carmelite Saints what it is about the Carmelite sins that really captivate people's imaginations and it's this idea that they experienced such incredible like darkness and suffering and their life and yet they were joyful and and it was that suffering that really it it made them Saints and made them joyful I mean we see that in in st. Teresa of ávila as well just some of the difficulties that she faced in her life and how that really bore this fruit of this our entire Carmelite Order see the same thing in Saint Therese right she experienced her illness where she talked about how each breath felt like she was being stabbed and how that that suffering brought about I brought about like this beautiful patrimony of the little way and we see that and so many of the other Carmelite Saints too and I think that that's captivating to people because we all suffer like we all experience suffering in our life and it can seem just so meaningless and empty but these Saints and in particular I think st. John the Cross they show us that that it's not empty suffering that suffering done with love suffering done United to Jesus on the cross is redemptive and yeah it'll turn us into Saints yes and like you said I mean that's we can all have that in common right we we can everyone has experienced darkness in their life everyone has experienced some kind of suffering and I think which struck me I remember with the Carmelites was just there their happiness too and that you can have both of those things together and as you say it's leading to something it's not in vain you know and and so our darkness our sufferings can actually you have put us in a place where we will finally receive the happiness that the fulfillment we're seeking and yeah it just seems that that's great hope that's great hope for a lot of people out there and a lot of people especially with with interior difficulties men till illness even that it's leading to something and that God can use it so maybe just to jump off that then like could we be a little more precise like what what is the Dark Knight about in terms of when John is writing the Dark Knight the commentary on the Dark Knight like what is the basis of that yeah and I mean really the the Dark Knight is okay so first and foremost the Dark Knight it's a poem that John wrote and it's it's a poem that really tells about it's it's an it's autobiographical it tells about an experience in his life yeah so maybe it would be good to just talk about John's life as far as like where does this poem come from yes so Jonathan cross was born in the 1500s in Spain he from a young age his father passed away his brother passed away and so he was left in just extreme poverty just like a very difficult time growing up in that sense and so then when he he was about I think 21 he entered the Carmelites and so despite what he was experiencing in his life he still felt this call of God to become a Carmelite and so he was studying to become a priest and at one point he just he realized that he thought that God was calling him to a life of more silence more prayer contemplation more solitude more penance and so he decided that he was going to leave the Carmelites and become a Carthusian and that is when he met Saint Teresa of ávila and this is really I mean a very important event in his life because she totally changed the trajectory of his life and she told him she convinced him not to leave the Carmelites to stay in Our Lady's order to serve the church and to join with her in in creating these reforms these houses of reforms of the Carmelites and so that's what John ended up doing and that was kind of the beginning of of our order really was with John and Teresa in that way yeah so then we have their major creating these houses and suddenly they become rather popular they begin growing a lot of the nuns they want these reformed friars to come and be their confessors rather than the other the non reformed friars and people want to hear these Friars preach they go to these friars for confession and spiritual direction so of course the the non reformed friars they're become a little envious of what's happening there and eventually they they find a way to to lock up Jonathan cross basically they throw him in the monastery prison for being just so be a disobedient friar and yeah they lock him there for nine months and he's just you know treated horribly he's basically starved and there's all kinds of like psychological kind of torture that's happening at the same time just really a difficult situation for him to be in and this is really kind of the great the central point of his darkness mm-hmm in his life yeah he experienced a lot of darkness leading up to this and was able to overcome so much but then yeah you're imprisoned by your own brothers yours in this little cell and you don't know what's gonna happen you have no information of what's going on around you and you're in solitary confinement so yeah it seems like this would be a natural place for that darkness to reach a kind of a crisis point and and maybe what what were I guess we could say are some ways that he dealt with that darkness then when he was in the jail and and how did he find meaning in that right yeah and so this is also a time when he was feeling rather distant from God - so who wasn't like he was there and he was just able to pray and just feel extremely close to God he was feeling just really abandoned by God and yet he continued to strive to be faithful to God he continued to start strive to pray and to hold out hope and so at that same time then he begins writing these verses at the beginning not even whole poems but just verses in his mind because he did at first he didn't have anything there even right on so he just writes these verses and his in his mind about basically about this what he's experiencing about his great desire to be a knight to God but kind of the darkness and difficulties he's facing at that time yes and we know that poetry often is has a lot of symbolism right a lot of hidden meanings and so when he was experiencing this darkness and was writing the poetry it wasn't necessarily always clear what he was talking about I imagine and so when he shared it with other people they they asked some questions right and and so what was the result I guess of these questions that he was being asked about about his poems yeah because so yeah so I guess but before I go into that his escape from prison so after after nine months basically he's on the verge of death mmm and he realizes like he has to try to get out of the situation or he's going to die and so one night he managed to manages to get out of his cell and go to a window and he ties his sheets together and basically just like repels down out of this window the sheets aren't even long enough so the end guest even like dropped ten feet to the ground and it's you know it's dark out and he's just already worn down and beaten because he's even been you know he's been whipped and hasn't been fed well so he's like a really weak at this point but somehow rather miraculously as he would recount later he manages escaped and then it's after this escape that he actually writes down the poem the dark night and it's it's autobiographical in the sense that he's referring to this night of his escape this this one dark night when when he escaped from the prison but much deeper than that there's more meaning it's not just a historical account of that night but also what he was experiencing internally in his relationship with God during those nine months that he was in the prison so then what you were saying about yes so he writes this poem right it has this incredible depth of meaning and he shares it with people and they read it and they say oh this is great but I have no idea what it means so they go to him and they're asking him explain this and that's when John sits down and writes some of his his prose work he writes to other works the ascent to Mount Carmel and the Dark Knight which are both commentaries on this poem that he wrote yeah yeah and you could say that the poem itself is pretty short right I mean the commentary is between the ascent and dark nights are long you know two volumes but the poem is pretty short and it's beautiful and maybe it's just a nice thing for people if they don't have a lot of experience with John just to read that poem first you know before maybe even getting into the the prose work the commentary right yeah yeah that is it's a very good place to start I think because picking up John's his prose writing can be rather intimidating because he uses a lot of scholastic terminology and it's you know rather long and but the poem is just so beautiful and you can even find I like to listen to some videos on YouTube there's like some versions of the poetry in Spanish and that's just incredibly beautiful eternity to listen to that yes and even at that time people recognized though right away that he was a great poet I mean he had such abilities and so the people he shared it with we're very moved by this poem but but like you said that they didn't always know what it meant or so they asked him to explain it to them and so then he wrote this these commentaries but who were mostly who were the audience's he was writing for like directness for yeah so it was mainly the nuns and his fellow friars that he was writing to they were the ones coming to him saying like explain this to us and so we always keep that in mind when we're reading because John's writing to people who have already devoted their lives in religion you know to living in a religious order they're likely very well-educated in spiritual things already and have been living lives of Prayer for a long time and so it's funny because John actually writes at the beginning of the ascent he writes that he's writing for beginners and proficient well we can be like Oh beginners right so I can understand this but really what John means by beginners is very different than what we think beginners in in in the sense that he's using it are those who have really already been established well in the spiritual life so they're already praying regularly they've already broken they're like habits of serious and and yes so they're they're they're already have a good like kind of foundation and I think you'd be discouraging for us if we go in thinking that we should be able to understand and do all these things that John sing but even if we're not there yet it doesn't mean that we can't draw like a lot of fruit from what he's saying as well because even though we may be referring to those who are further along this journey than we are like there's so much that we can pick up definitely definitely and he makes it clear to it's it's all grace anyways you know so it's it's not something that I can just sort of make happen in myself but we can read that and trust that God can bring that about in us and if we're open to it of course and cooperate with it but that it's not yet cut off from us or anything and and we know that even people who aren't Christian or or even even atheists have found a lot of fruit in John's writings and and so I think it shows too that there there is still universality but we it's so helpful to know the context you know and and what he actually means you know by dark night so we don't just to come up with our own idea that that then ends up maybe discouraging us even so could you maybe just share a little bit about in a more maybe simple way but what what does John mean by the Dark Knight yeah it's I find that it's like such a difficult question actually the answer right I feel like you know I've read this so many times and I can talk about the Dark Knight but then if someone says well what is the Dark Knight that's what it's like really hard to because John had it throughout the write his writing he even explains it in very different ways at different points and so it's really hard to kind of narrow it down to even a working definition yeah but I guess if I had to if I had to put it kind of simply I would say that the Dark Knight is just this experience in our spiritual journey where we we face suffering and darkness whether those be temporal or spiritual and which serve to purify a soul on this journey towards union with God no I know maybe that's not totally simple but yeah so yeah I think that's that's like a decent like if I have to put it yeah distill it a little bit yeah well I think it is simple I mean in the sense that everyone can relate to that and it doesn't have to be this mystical kind of experience of absence of God or something but it's anything can be a night in a way that is a suffering or or a sense of not being fulfilled or satisfied was a sort of restlessness it doesn't have to be like this great dramatic suffering I think that's typically what people think of when they think of the dark night is this just dramatic thing but really just the little sufferings we face in our daily lives I think of like just immense I've met so many people who suffer so much because their kids really aren't following this journey of the face have left the church and realizing like what a great suffering that is for so many people and really I think that that can be a dark night experience for somebody just the suffering that they go through like seeing their Jim their children not on the right path so it can be those just those normal normal events of our daily lives really that that bring these darkness is in trials so it can really purify us and sanctify us well I think that's a good a good word that you mention at the end of purification is sanctification like it has a purpose you know and and so what what makes the dark night meaningful you know and and and even a joy at times to go through is is knowing what you know what what would you say is the purpose of that and what could actually give joy to us in the midst of it yeah yeah it's always remembering the end mm-hmm the I mean without the end of union with God our perfect happiness beatitude without that end all of this would be meaningless yeah all this suffering and darkness would have no meaning but we have to keep in mind always that God loves us so much he desires us to be ultimately fulfilled completely with him he desires to transform us into himself in love and that is the end of all of this it's not just some you know tests that we have to go through for no purpose is that this is actually the means by which the suffering this darkness God is sanctifying us and drawing us to that love and yeah if we forget that Jonty always talks about that the nada nada nada nada nothing nothing nothing and you can't understand the nada unless you understand the other side of that which is the total it's the everything right so you have to have this this everything which is just perfect happiness with God eternally it's it's for that sake that we have this bit nada than nothing and could you say how in a way I mean you know it's it's mysterious very vehement and a high degree it's missed its mystery but how does God use it to bring that about yeah so in in John's writing he talks about well you can he makes this division between the night of the senses and the night of the Spirit and I actually think it's a mistake to separate these two too much really this is one night but it's two different aspects of this night and so when John talks about the senses he's not just talking about like our five bodily senses but he's also talking about our imaginations our emotions things like that and so that's on one side is like God wants to purify those things he wants to purify all of our five senses busts our imaginations and everything that goes along with that then he also talks about the dark diet of the spirit and by the spirit he's referring to like that really that deep part of our soul it's really kind of the the the this powerhouse of our souls kind of where our faculties reside so there he's talking about I mean traditionally that the intellect memory and the will and those are to be purified as well and through in this night yes so yeah it's again God wants to purify all of these things all of us completely he wants to purify us and generally like we'll find that God begins with with those things that are most external to us with the senses and then he works deeper and deeper finally down to our very core just slowly transforming us yeah well I think and even just looking at our own experience of the spiritual life we can see that you know it's at the beginning or in certain moments we let go of things and even things that aren't terrible like maybe I live to get Taco Bell after work you know I remember that I feel like and then as I start going to my faith is like I can't put so much of my energy enjoy Taco Bell you know it's got a its you know as in so as God becomes more of our joy and our relationship with God becomes more strong and more the Center those sense goods right that we tend to put so much into her and look forward to so much kind of back away from that a little bit right because they don't provide the same joy that God does yeah and it's not that Taco Bell is bad right yeah yeah it's that God is so much better hard to imagine that might be but yeah so that's that's the reality right that we are we're just attached to so many things and some of the things I think maybe the external things are even easier to notice that we're attached to Jonathan cross he writes about like being attached to a particular like article of clothing or we can be attached to a particular kind of food and we can realize that these are I mean these things and themselves aren't bad but it's our relationship to them which can be dangerous because we are giving our our focus our energies focusing on these things when really we should be focusing completely on God and that's what God wants for us yeah and even with things that are that are very good like because and maybe this as it gets deeper you know like the example you mention of the the parents with their children who aren't making great decisions or moving away from the faith that's not just a question of Taco Bell or some kind of nice nice sense good you know that's more of a question of of a relationship you know very deep relationship how could you say maybe God might be using the night of that to purify and bring and bring a parent let's say to a deeper place of union with God through that could you say maybe yeah that might come about right so I think yeah so Jonathan cross writes that a bird held by even a single thread can't fly away so he wants us to be completely free and so that's really his goal and all of all of this is to free us to love him completely and yes I mean we can like I mean parents are called to love their children but there's you control your child I mean really you have to just you have to to pray and do all that you can to help your child but then at the same time just entrust it to God yeah and trust that that God is the one who for reasons we may not know is allowing this to happen yes and you think that the faith that that could strengthen the hope right faith hope and charity or this the the realities that we want more than anything that is darkness is supposed to lead to if we're open to it so the faith that can grow the hope that God Himself will save this child of mine that I can't control and I have no idea how he's going to do it right right and then patience I think patience is like another great virtue you can learn through that kind of suffering mm-hmm yeah and so yeah in a way God can use something which doesn't seem like it's leading to him to really transform you right yeah yeah so I think you know we mentioned some of these like external sense goods like food or I mean now I think of like I'm you can be soaked and we can be so attached to like the internet or to our cell phones things like that those sometimes those are more those are actually easier to first those are the things we usually begin with have realizing like maybe my relationship to this isn't terribly healthy maybe I need to reconsider the ways that I use these things not that they're bad in themselves but again where's my focus where's my heart yeah but then we begin to realize that there are these other attachments that we have that are more interior mm-hmm and I think these are the ones that they can be harder to realize but what we do realize them you just yeah we realize just how completely attached we are to so many things like want to think of them I think it's it's pretty common and in religious life we see common in the monasteries it's it's easy to be attached to thinking that the way you think things the way that you think that things ought to be done is like the best way and that's so so easy or another example would be like being attached to other people thinking highly yeah or being praised by others mmm like these are those little things that again it's not bad at it they're not bad in themselves it's not bad to be thought highly of it's not bad to be praised it's not bad to have opinions about how things ought to be done but we can be overly attached to those things and they can become kind of the focus of our lives and even the fact that they're not maybe leading us to God like even if they're they're not bad things but they're somehow getting in the way and it's it's just yet the energy we put into them and I think that can even happen in our relationship with God right yes and and could and maybe that again this is getting deeper this is at first we don't see these things but as we go along we start seeing more and more maybe how could we see the dark night in terms of our relationship with God even and how yeah right so I like to think that at the beginning when we're living lives maybe if we're just like more consumed and sin just going from sin to sin that's like we're just like living on like we're eating poison basically right just it's slowly killing us well God wants to get us away from this this poison so what does he do he offers this ice cream he says like okay here don't eat that poison eat this instead and so then we begin enjoying this ice cream and so this ice cream would be like an example of God will just try to he'll win us over so like suddenly we may feel drawn to prayer and just being in prayer just brings us so much joy or we'll find that it becomes very easy for us to to do good things to practice virtue in different situations or we may just in thinking about God reading theology we'll have all these lofty ideas right and again these are great things and God's using them to help us to break away from these sinful habits and be completely focused on him but the danger and that is then we become so fixated on the ice cream we become so fixated on the the good feelings in prayer or how we feel joy when we're doing good for others that we focus too much on those things and then we still missed the point which is the love of God yeah and so that's when I think God slowly starts to kind of lead us away from the ice cream well he really wants for us is to eat the substantial food that home that'll make us strong and grow he wants to give us the the meat and potatoes and vegetables but if all we've eaten is ice cream at the beginning when he starts giving us that meat potatoes and vegetables it's not gonna taste very good and we're gonna be craving the ice cream and so this is what happens I think often people experience it in their lives of Prayer at the beginning they're so fervent and just they're enjoying prayer and then slowly at the time of marriage becomes very dry boring and arid and just a trial mm-hmm and we can begin to think like oh gods turned his back on me maybe I'm doing something wrong and the truth is no God is just rather than us focusing so much on these joys of Prayer the happiness we feel God is slowly taking those things away in order to purify us so that we can really get to the substance of what he wants which is union with him yes yes and even the ideas that we might have about God you know we can think so much about them or depends so much on them these ideas or these things that make so much sense to us and again they're good they come from good books and good writers but the key is they're not God right they're not God even the ideas themselves are not God and so in order to be open to God we can't grab so much on our own way of understanding right and and what does that lead to you know a deeper faith hopefully right that the faith is is trusting believing when we don't have all the answers when we don't feel like we can just grasp everything and yet we still believe in still trust yeah and and yeah I just I just hope that people as they go along won't get discouraged you know when those ideas or thoughts don't make as much sense to them anymore they can lie on them so much in their prayer even in their way of seeing God that it's leading to something greater and it doesn't mean lack of faith it means a deeper deeper faith often right yeah yeah because I mean that's yeah again always keeping that end in mind of God is allowing this in order to draw us to purify us to sanctify us yes yes I think one question that a lot of people probably have in mind is what John talks about the dark night often it sounds a lot like an experience of depression and and it can get confusing of like what is the distinction there you know what is the difference between the dark night that that we might be going through from on a spiritual side and then depression yeah as we understand it right and I mean John even he writes about this but he doesn't necessarily use the term depression like as we would understand it today yeah but John it John does see it is important of like we need to be able to sting missus English when I'm experiencing darkness suffering like I feel like God's abandoned me is this due to this actual like this experience of the dark night it's the work of God or is this some other something else yeah so that could be one of like several different things one thing that John talks about is we could just be backsliding and that's a real possibility in the spiritual life another thing he talks about is that it could be due to just like patterns of sin that we no longer feel close to God or it could be due to what we would call now depression maybe some natural thing that's happening and we shouldn't just turn and like automatically assume like oh well this is just something that God wants me to go through he wants me to suffer this this this night when really what we need to do is perhaps you know seek real help if the case is depression so how do we determine like what the difference is and one thing that I read that was interesting is that that every experience of depression isn't the dark night but every experience of depression can be used to purify us and to sanctify us if we relate to these things in the appropriate ways oh yeah I guess then if someone's going through a real darkness maybe how could they distinguish or or at least get a deeper sense of where God is in this or if this is more just this depression or I haven't gotten enough sleep or is it may be the result of God's loving action as a dark night in my life right yeah I think the the main way we can tell the difference is just that in this experience in this dark night we have to sink this incredible desire for God that never goes away now we have to like really understand what do we mean by desire because it's not going to be good feelings it's not gonna be just like you know happiness and all of this is it's in the midst of a trial but yet there's just like this deep in me this great desire that never goes away never wanes and that's what we see I think in the life of John of the Cross is no matter what he was facing he's just had this incredible desire just like this fire within him for God yes and as you said the fire might not be something we feel innocence level and but I think of even again like that going back to the the parent whose children aren't going to mass and maybe our expansion that darkness from that but they still want so much to be close to God and and they don't let that turn them away from God right you know and they still go to church they still you know go to their prayer time they still make their life try to make their life a gift to others you know even if their dreams are not being fulfilled for their children or their family right so it's it's it's it's a it's a perseverance almost I would think you know right yeah cuz I've heard it said if when I feel dryness and emptiness and prayer how do I know that that's the cause of God really he's doing that work in me he's kind of drawing away drawing me away from that ice cream yeah I bring me to the more substantial food and really the the the only way to know for certain is that I persevere in prayer yeah despite the emptiness despite the dryness I remain faithful to prayer and that's how I know yes this is God doing this work because I'm still I'm still loving him I'm still you know being obedient and loving a son of God yeah and that can be the fire that was the fire in John of the Cross even if you're dragging yourself sometimes but it's it's a fire because you should go and you're doing it and you're you're you're moving forward and maybe there's a you know today well today is the the feast of st. john paul ii and as as a young man he encountered Carmelite spirituality and fell in love and especially with John of the Cross and so could you maybe just say a little bit about that yeah it is actually in the the introduction to the collected like theology of the body of john paul ii i remember reading that introduction and it says that john paul ii learned spanish just so he could read john the cross in its original language so like you realize just like how significant john john of the cross and how much spirituality was for saint john paul ii that he learned an entire language just so he could read I mean the he was reading things that he could have just read in his is made of Polish too but there was something that he wanted to read it in its original language so something really spoke to him so much so that John Paul the second actually wrote his dissertation on Saint Jonathan cross and particularly he wrote it on faith according to Saint John of the Cross and that just ties in so perfectly to this this night that we're talking about because our response to that night has to be faith it's it's remaining faithful standing at the foot of the cross staying there even in the greatest darkness and just hoping and trusting that God has a plan even though we don't know what that plan is it may seem totally dark and bleak I read somewhere that Jonathan crosses spirituality is is hanging between Good Friday and Easter Sunday so Easter Sunday is this beatific vision this glory that we're waiting for and we're in this time in-between mm-hmm it's it's yeah you were just holding out in faith like trusting that God has a plan yeah and it doesn't mean it's it's always agony you know there's a real peacefulness to that to that trust even in the midst of darkness I think that's what so many of our saints experienced you know and and the regular person of faith experiences that they might be in that hanging in that space but there's a peace and a real sense that no this is good and I wouldn't want to leave it because it's leading to something right and that that is what john paul ii really gets at in his dissertation is when he's writing about faith a faith is not just some belief in some object or some creed it's faith is a relationship with that person it's a relationship of love and that's what John John the Cross he just yeah I think he just in his everything he writes in his in his life that's what he puts across and is that really the the spiritual journey is this great love story where we can leave everything else behind in pursuit of the one that we love I leave everything behind because it all pales in comparison to God and the love that he has for us [Music] every one brother pier Giorgio here thanks for checking out this episode of caramel cast if you want to hear more of us don't forget to click Subscribe also be sure to click like if you enjoyed this episode and maybe even leave us a comment we post discussion questions down below to get the conversation going want more information Carmelite spirituality in the Discalced Carmelites Saints and you want to check out our website WWII sorg there's a link in the description of this episode from here you can see all our current promotions and access our complete catalog for the writings of st. John of the Cross Saint Teresa of ávila Saints reservoir su st. Elizabeth of the Trinity and say Nita Stein if you want to stay up to date our promotions and new titles and be sure to add your email to our email list there's no better way to stay up to date the latest Carmelite publications thanks for joining us and may God bless you

Channel: ICS Publications

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Length: 41min 29sec (2489 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 22 2019