Speaker Panel: John Piper, Crawford Loritts, Darrin Patrick, Doug Wilson, Ramez Atallah

our host for this session is my friend David Mathis he is an elder at Bethlehem Baptist Church and he also serves as John Piper's assistant so David thank you thank you for submitting these questions these are yours questions there are many good questions to many that we have time for we'll try to get to as many as we can now let's ask for God's help here as we do this panel together so father would you direct us now we want these pastors and other leaders to be helped by this time together direct us in the questions and these speakers in their minds to answers that would be helpful and glorifying to your son we pray that he would be honored in these 55 minutes or so together in Jesus name we pray amen let's begin with femininity as a compliment to all of our discussion about masculinity what is biblical femininity we'll start with Doug and all you guys jump in what is biblical femininity and Doug in particular what are the the feminine virtues that you referred to with general generally what are they specifically the feminine virtues would be those which are the counterpart to the masculine virtues so if if if a man taking on the masculine role takes the initiative then his wife responds so men initiate women respond at the ball the gentleman vows the lady courtesies so their initiative is nothing if there's nobody there to respond to it another feminine virtue would be that of helping so if you go through the creation account God creates this and says it's good and they creates this and says and it's good and he creates this and he says it's good and then the first thing he says is not good is a solitary bachelor so he creates man one guy a solitary male and God says and it is not good listen we have we're not done here is it's not good that man should be alone and he will make a helper suitable for him so of the the help meet or the helper suitable for him means that he by himself is inadequate and so God makes her to be a help a helper suitable to him and you see the same thing in 1st Corinthians 11 where it says that the woman was not made for the man the man was not made for the woman but the woman for the man and the man was made first this is all creation order stuff it's not greco-roman customs its creation order and so just to sum it up the man is built with the mission in mind and his mission is the garden the the tilling of the field the discovery of the new thing and her role is to enable and help and equip him you define masculinity as the glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility do you have something corresponding in mind for feminine femininity I would say the glad acceptance of that sacrifice so a woman should not feel like she's imposing if a man does that for her she's not imposing at all that's what he's built for that's what he's made for yeah I would say as well in in Ephesians 5 obviously the classic passage on headship before a woman is told to submit to her husband for before a husband is told to be the head there is a mutual submission that happens so I think that in Christ and in the church and even in marriage there there are gifts that women have from God that there is a submission to on the man's part and so on the husband's parts for instance my wife is way more organized than I am with regard to everything and so stir the nuance that everything she's better at with regard to details and she it has much more mercy than I do I think it's actually a spiritual gift that she has we're all called to be merciful but I think there is a mercy thing in her that helps her understand our children's hearts in a way that I don't get and so I lean on her to help me with that so I think they're you know green with everything that Doug said but I think in Christ and in the church spiritual gifts sometimes and in marriage and in and with women in the church there are times that those things rise up and and that is a very feminine thing that is how God made them to use those gifts in the church and for the greater good of the gospel John you talked about Christianity having a masculine feel is there a sense in which there's a feminine feel if masculinity and femininity are both finding their source in God if it's done right this masculine feel creates a space it's big it's roomy it's beautiful it's peaceful it's just full and radiant with all the good things of life and in it women flourishing will give it that feel so that as you as you as you look as you say walk in on Sunday morning and strong singing led primarily by men and then a voice from God is heard you'll sense created and women are sitting there loving this their radiant they're intelligent they're understanding they're processing they're interacting and and then all the gifts that were just articulated will flourish in that space and as you navigate that community there will be feminine fields all over the place and one of the things you know if I'd had another I would have liked to spin out the benefits of that community and one of the things I would have said is you know in a community where there is a secure strong humble masculine feel men are free to be appropriately feminine and women are free to be appropriately masculine in other words when you look at any given human being the most attractive interesting winsome human beings are not all masculine or all feminine they are appropriately if they're man prominently masculine and there are things about this guy that are remarkably tender kind warm nurturing the kinds of things we were such an when you look at a woman who's dominantly and prominently feminine she will have a backbone she will be articulate she'll be thoughtful things we tend to think our male and in a community that's that's well defined there's freedom to have a man who might in some places not be viewed as masculine as he might be otherwise he's an artistic guy and I didn't want to create an out but can uncreate any sense that the only appropriate masculine guy who's the guy who who hunts or who who does flag football or who it doesn't isn't like anything creative artistic is like to write does like to make music you meant tackle football no I meant I'm yeah flag football yeah I did that's what I'm in I was gonna say blocking I have challenged these younger guys than they play factor footballs I never played it in my life as a kid we broke a guy's neck playing football the way we play it tackle the backyard but yeah so the flavor there is yes the answer is yes the church as you move through this community prescribed by and and protected by a masculine field there will be feminine feel lots of places yeah you know I was gonna say you triggered just a thought of me I really think sometimes the genesis of the conflict between these things arises out of a willful ignorance and acceptance of truth and our insecurities that comes out of that for example John in order to do what you just said a person has to really know the truth and embrace who they are it's like great jazz musicians I love jazz great jazz musicians the truly great ones they understand clearly music theory they understand it you can't improvise off of the off of what you don't understand and embrace and so I think the foundation is to preach transcendent propositional truth about who we are and stop recruiting to our insecurities but accept who we are in Christ then you can improvise and be appropriately female and appropriately male and I think that you know the passage that I taught on I mean the fruit of the Spirit you have to John's point you have you know seemingly very masculine like that word faithfulness confidence assurance boldness is the the idea you know you have you know gentleness you know you have self-control right and I think that that's part of the problem of the whole you know man a man is a you you know a UFC guy a football guy a hunter and a woman you know likes daisies and home interior stuff right and I think that we have bought into that that's the cultural thing that's not a Bible thing and so we have adopted that and then kind of spit that out as masculinity and femininity and I think that I mean it was Paul a masculine guy was he bold would he rebuked would he take a punch as he did in Acts chapter 20 yeah but would he repent quickly as he did there would he in 1st Thessalonians to say I'm gonna share my life and we were with you like a like a mother caring for her children so I yeah nursing mother yeah so I think there is a I think there's a distortion and I think capturing this idea of masculinity and femininity we've got we've got to let the Bible inform us not just cultural you know clues and cues several questions from fathers of daughters asking for counsel on the formation of their daughters there's nothing that can be done it was a little joke one of the one of the things I would say about that is that fathers understand their sons and mothers understand their daughters and fathers and mothers must therefore be communicating with one another about what's going on because fathers tend to be because of that understanding fathers tend to be hard on their sons and more manipulable with regard to their daughters mothers tend to be hard on their daughters and more manipulable when it comes to their sons and so consequently dad has got to toughen mom up and dealing with her boy and mom has got to give dad some insight on dealing with daughters so it's I would say the the main thing is that husbands and wives when you're bringing up children husbands and wives should have routine regular visits like business meetings how's it going how are the kids are the kids flourishing are the kids secure are the kids how are they with the Lord what how are they with their friends how school going so mom and dad need to talk regularly and then decide whether some time with one of the kids or some conversation is needed and who should have that conversation and what the game plan is so I would say the key is not to go don't go into one-on-one time with the kids raw mom and dad should visit and prayerfully visit as you tackle all with all of these things I think there's another element too so we have I have three daughters one son and we have two of the two of the two of our girls one is just almost just like my wife personality-wise and the other one is almost just like me and then there's one that we both don't understand at all and and so I even just I even find myself gravitating towards the kid who I get because she's like me and so that changes that the my wife the same way and so I think you can lean on each other not just on the gender issue but also on the personality issue and help each other you know my wife says the same thing that I say about boys when a boy gets to be about ten inches so mom needs to take a couple of clicks back and dad needs to take a couple of clicks forward she says the same thing as about girls to that sum right around that that time we have two girls and two boys and I have to confess to you that when my daughters when they say daddy they've hot-wired me I lost my mind and you know but I am a little bit I've tried to get counseling all that just never helped but so I'm really agreeing with Doug I think I have learned the hard way that you know they get about 11 or 12 ish I sort of kind of like don't trust yourself with making a decision hide your wallet wait to Karen comes home so and that's not weakness I mean he's being a little facetious but but that's biblical that's Ephesians 5:21 that's submitting to one another it's it's realizing your wife have strengths there you don't have to come up with every good idea most of the time when that I've seen when it comes to our girls she is going to really lead me in some ways and help me initiate and help me be the head of my home she's gonna support me in that and and even in lead out and in helping make room for me I don't have the best ideas with parenting and she's very helpful and God has given you your wife for that reason a very helpful point from Monday night was about strictness and grace justice and mercy this person writes in practical terms how do we know when to apply strict justice puts in parentheses unwavering penalty for disobedience and when to apply mercy not spanking or applying the penalty etc it's a huge subject but let me say just one thing about it in Galatians 6:1 says if a brother's overtaken in a trespass you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness considering yourself lest you also be tempted when you bringing up kids and one of the kids is overtaken in a trespass and you're motivated to discipline you're not qualified alright and when you're qualified you're not motivated so if if someone's overtaken and Tresidder yeah if you're let me add that get that kid so if someone's overtaken in a trespass you who are spiritual so if you're just fuming or mad or angry or irritated or annoyed you you're not qualified it's the it's the beam and the mote situation you're not qualified to discipline your your child if you're not spiritual so oftentimes our motivations to discipline our carnal and then when we don't have those carnal motivations we just say let it go well letting it go is that's when you're qualified to to do it so when you're strict basically I would say I would say strict strict godly discipline is kind its judicial there's a I remember clear when I was get busted for some when I was a kid and and my dad would take us off to the you know did we we were spanked in the basement that's where it happened and he found the bait down to the basement and and he would present us with an opportunity for the defense which is usually pretty thin and so it was very it was proverbs 1817 you know one man's case seems reasonable until you hear the other side my dad would say what's the full story here an opportunity for the defense then we'd be disciplined he would then pray with us and then say you're welcome to rejoin the family at anytime as soon as you're prepared to be pleasant and and we got to stay in the basement listen to the happy clink of silverware upstairs and usually happened at dinner so so they're having fellowship and grand old time and you're down and the only thing that's keeping you out of that fellowship is your own hat is your own attitude but my dad's disciplined during this was judicious and calm i I didn't feel like he was disciplining me because he had didn't have control of himself and I think that's just crucial that and so when you're strict that way it's received appropriate you know and when you're and you can also see clearly went to know when to be merciful when to remember their frame Doug you don't want to create the impression though do you that it's unspiritual to be angry at the disrespect to kid shows to his mother for example and that and that your key phrase at the end there was out of control I think yes God is very angry at sin any accident that anger but he's never out of control we probably have to exert more restraint than God does because he's God and our angry is regularly unrighteous and so and yet I cannot believe that I should not if my boy boys who all grown out out now and tell if it doesn't do this in the same way if they spoke to Noel in certain ways I was furious and probably just because my dad was when I spoke to my mom in a disrespectful way and I think that fury while contaminated like everything was right and for him to see it in my eyes was right if I were to act out of like that that's probably gonna ruin everything so any qualifications yeah I would say two things first I agree that Paul says in Ephesians be angry and sin not and then James says man's anger does not serve the righteous requirements of God so there's a carnal anger which is a work of the flesh and that has to be out completely there's a righteous anger which is like even but even when it's righteous it's like manna it rots overnight so don't let the Sun go down on it so if if it's a righteous anger then then act when Jesus got the one place that says Jesus was angry is in mark with the man with the withered hand I think he was also angry when he cleansed the temple but it doesn't say that I'm sorry so we have have that but when Jesus was angry the end result of that was not a hole in the sheet rock but a man with a withered hand restored so Jesus anger was constructive and so so I would say that also exploding physically is bad but sometimes the look of anger or the explosive anger can be almost as forceful as a blow and so I would so I agree in principle but I would urge us all to be wary of our own heart siren in your talk the three DS the you it really struck me because my dad had the same three rules and he formulated it as no lying no disobedience and no disrespecting your mother that was the top three things no disrespect of your mother so I knew that if if we popped off to mom or we did something like that my dad would land on us it that was very clear but I think there's a firmness and a severity and a and a righteousness that doesn't it cannot be mistaken for dad losing control that's the thing you want to never communicate to your children that they might get hit I might be stepping into some real dangerous territory but in recent years I have revisited this whole idea the relationship between anger in in parenting anger and leadership anger and authority and I have a positive twist on it I don't think you can be an effective father without the demonstration of anger I don't think you can be an effective leader without the demonstration of anger anger has gotten a bad name it is the out of control it is the graceless but I think anger if people need to dishonest it sounds bully-ish and I know a person cannot lead if he's not passionate about the direction and values that need to be protected and led with and when those things are threatened there needs to be appropriate passion and preservation and protection over those things Jon's illustration the flash in your eyes when your son's that's what that meant there's leadership authority and you will not cross this line and I think what happens to some younger leaders who get beaten up by bullies in the church is that the fear of man and some some I don't know compromise eroded prostituted understanding of anger and false humility causes us to retreat well I you know anger is is is is an ally and it's a friend and I think we need to think a little bit more about that some of us just need to stand up and say to some people I am angry at you for doing this and you're going to stop it and I don't think that's wrong just a text on it that I thought of while Doug was giving one of his messages governing my my fatherhood and imperfect as it was was Romans 11:20 the kindness and the severity of God and I told my boys outright I am here as soon as they can understand me I am here to represent God to you I don't think you'll know God any other way early on than the way I treat you God has a hell and God as a heaven God as a son who died I I get right the proportion in this family of showing you the kindness and the severity of God huge challenge and and we've got personalities that are all messed up and and so hence the cautions are totally appropriate yeah so again Jesus got angry and for us to outlaw it and say it never is never appropriate we're trying to be holier than Jesus but that's I agree in principle someone writes my wife and I are fostering children in the state is very strict on how we discipline them what is the best way to go about this but want to love and teach the children the way Christ would want us to move to Egypt let me just get it rolling I'd foster-care I presume is not exactly the same as parenting they're here to be cared for and loved and yet foster means they've not adopted I presume and they're gonna go away shortly perhaps I mean so I've not thought through frankly how the demands of if Uncle Sam said to me that I couldn't spank one of my sons I would disobey Uncle Sam period okay but but but a foster care I'm just trying to think out loud here whether the distinction between the child living with me for a month or a year in order to let his family get in order or keep him off the street or whatever in the state has its rules must I suppose given that kind of relationship might then justify you in conforming to the state's unbiblical expectations in order to do good to this child and then you would find ways I suppose to do what's within the states expectations that would be as close to representing firmness and justice and severity representing God and kindness mercy and care so tag something on to that the agreeing with everything there with I wouldn't urge kind-hearted Christians and I would I'm saying this as an enthusiastic proponent of adoption and a cheerleader for people who are ministering to kids who need foster care so nothing should be taken as taken up taking away from that but I would urge kind-hearted Christians to read the fine print in concerning everything before they get in into it know what they require know how they enforce their requirements know how it goes in your state it matters whether you've got foster kids and your own kids in the same home let's say the biological parent makes a false accusation that you're abusing the the foster kid and now the social services can come into your home and take your natural kids away right because the rules of evidence and innocent till proven guilty and that sort of thing it's just out the window when it comes to a lot of these a lot of these sorts of tangled family social social services sort of situations so know what you're getting into understand what the challenges are and make sure that it's a mission and a call and not an emotional reaction so that's that's the thing once you get in you're all in and and I agree with what John said just that it's you function within the parameters that you agreed to function within but you should know what that's going to cost you should talk to foster parents who've done it for five years who've done it for ten years and you know just do your due diligence rama's having been in a place much more hostile to the gospel than many of us know in North America lessons in courage and boldness and wisdom that you would have for us learned along the way I'm not sure it's the right assumption I think North America may be more hostile to the gospel than a Muslim country in a real way because the values that Muslims uphold are similar for not identical to many of the values we as conservative Christians with upon't so the opposition is mainly in places like Egypt on twofold one is on doctrinal issues so is Jesus the Son of God and the other on restrictions in evangelism and I've just mentioned creative ways of overcoming them so I think the only advice I would give to someone who was in this situation who was going into a situation is remember it's just been said now understand the limitations respect them and try to work within them don't try bravado at the kayo Book Fair for instance two years ago we sold for a pound seven thousand new testaments a couple of missions came and gave out two Bibles free of charge find themselves in jail so they were all excited and wrote newsletters and said that they were persecuted for Jesus and their everybody got up in arms and all this kind of thing and we fed they were stupid and they they got us in trouble so there are ways of doing things in many situations and you you will break the law only if there is no absolutely other way of evangelizing so I would say the wisdom is work as much as you can within and respect the culture you're in the limitations and in many cases if you respect the letter of the law there's a lot of things you can do that that that are maybe not in the spirit of a law that would pass following up on the topic of worship from last night dug when the world leaders are meeting together and here in the distance the faint boom of Christian worship as you mentioned in your talk what is that that is happening in Christian worship what is it that is happening in Christian worship that threatens the pattern of this world one of the things I should have said in that talk is that you're trying to bring together Romans 12 worship present your bodies a living sacrifice which is your spiritual worship day to day worship and then formal worship on the Lord's Day when you were coming into the heavenly places Hebrews 12 worship so this Hebrews 12 worship and there's Romans 12 worship and those two things should be integrated the message that that the secular rulers and the the rulers of this world should be hearing if this is done right is that Jesus is Lord which means that Caesar isn't so if Jesus is Lord the early the earth this is really important the early Christians we're not persecuted because they wanted to worship Jesus the Roman Empire could have cared less whether you worship Jesus or not it will add him to the God shelf we'll put him on the put him in the pantheon you can worship you can worship Jesus the the conflict came because the Christians said that Jesus is Lord of Heaven and Earth he's the king of kings he's the Lord of lords they're saying that Caesar has a lord Caesar has someone above him there's a court of appeals past our our eminent our earthly kingdoms there there's a God in heaven who judges all these things so when earthly rulers become aware that there are hundreds and then thousands and then tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of people who are gathering in places like this or in catacombs or in homes or in traditional church buildings and they are gathering to express their allegiance to the one who rules all the kingdoms of earth the kingdoms of the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever and that is the message that and throw some of them into a state of consternation I I don't want to be answerable they want the Supreme Court to be the Supreme Being and it's not that's the thing that I want to get through you answer to someone you have a lord you have accountability and ever every prophetic Minister with an open Bible can tell them how that accountability is going to run the changing gears we see on the topic of corporate worship how does recovering biblical manhood and masculinity relate to our worship music there seems to be a subtle femininity too much of the music we use in worship is this merely an issue of style or is it something deeper we should be concerned about I'm a guest here well I'll just say a word and toss it to the guest if he wants it you know you you're not gonna stay long yes there are deeper things I think going on and I think yes there's a feminine music and the more masculine music it's on a continuum and yes there are motions that are touched that are more feminine and some that are more masculine you know a mighty fortress is our God the the historic one and the newer one I think has a pretty robust feel to it and then some of the more tender warm embrace language songs would be a more feminine and therefore my suggestion is that we mix it up and that there be a strong masculine feel to it but not an only one and it should not be only feminine I think the reason I said predominantly met masculine leaders is because I'm thinking of the men in the church being affected and I want the Midnighter to be masculine and I want them to have emotions if only women are singing in front of them and they're looking a certain way in swaying a certain way it's just going to say to feel like this and have these affections is feminine and and I don't want that rather I like this kind of stand up here they're pretty engaged they're pretty emotionally involved and and the choir last night briefly enthusiastic guys I want the men in our church to feel it is masculine to be emotionally thrilled with the King of Kings and it is masculine to hear Doug say at the end if you were stuck struck by God the Father is waiting with open arms when he said that I wanted to cry because I want one of my son's there that's a real emotional thing so we have a huge job helping our broken people grow into full orbed emotions so lasers yes that matters who leads it matters what it feels like matters the instrumentation matters and some of it is so instinctual you have to choose the right worship leaders and trust them so now do you go ahead say whatever you want to say let me say let me say amen to that and let me also say that there's a lot about the music here that I really genuinely sincerely enjoy appreciate I appreciate the exuberance I appreciate how loud it is I appreciate the instrumentation I appreciate some of the chord changes and and an amen to everything you said just a quick word I I've lined up in the in the ministry because our church Christ church was then faith Fellowship and then it was community of Angelica Fellowship and back when it started it was a Jesus people type of thing and I was a college student and one of the worship leaders I was the guy played the guitar and I was up front with the guitar and it was the 70s and things were kind of weird and loosie loosie goosie and one day the pastor with the church was a year and a half old and the man who was doing the preaching announced one Sunday that he'd gotten a job in another city and he was going to be gone the next week and good luck everybody and and there's about 30 of us I think we were meeting in the park and my call that was my call of the ministry I was up front with the guitar and so I preached the next Sunday and that's how this all happened so I've been there I've done all I've done that kind of music I grew out of that I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church with traditional hymnody and and I remember number one and the Baptist hymnal was holy holy holy one of my favorite hymns now but as a child I hated that song I just hated that song it's like we are God's funeral and it was a ball it was a ball and chain and you know and when I first encountered what's now called contemporary music it was a it was threat it was thrilling to me and it opened up a bunch of things that I went through that and thank God for it the one the and I do believe I think you pointed to the fact that there's a it's this is not an on/off toggle switch this is a dimmer switch issue and so that said the thing that drives me crazy on the on the far end of the contemporary music scene is Jesus as my girlfriend music when you have Jesus as my girlfriend music and you can put you could substitute Sheila for Jesus in the song and and it works just as well maybe even bet you know then some things then something's wrong and so I so all that said and then at the other end there's the the orthodoxy you know when the choir director raises his arms a little puff of smoke goes up there's that there's that problem there's a ditch on both sides of the road so that's that's the problem I will say one thing that I would I have as our church has gone back to Psalms and hymns and that kind of music the thing that I love about it is we're trying to teach our congregation to sing four-part harmony and the Congress and that's something that was used to be standard in Christian churches and I think a lot of contemporary Christian music swallows up the ability to sing parts and and that's something I would like to urge contemporary Christian Church musicians to work on if the standards stacked harmonies don't work with the new arrangements then write new then write new parts and teach teach them to your people so that we can express polyphonically the one and the many a Trinitarian worship where different people are singing different things or regular worshipers can do that and I think that there's been a sliding back musically at that at that level so pastors outside of corporate worship can you share some significant specific strategies for building godly men no I I really think we need to get back to New Testament discipleship I think we make we make we make building men more difficult than it ought to be I think we need to get back to the scriptures back to pouring ourselves into men loving them modeling it before them re-- parenting them where necessary but being this I wanted to sound right being being fathers and I think that's where we need to get back to I think we have programmed everything to death in our church we we have rally did we have principled eyes that we have best practiced it and we've we've gotten so convoluted and so confused getting back to aggressively sharing the gospel modeling it before other men walking with them helping them to overcome sin in their lives to get face to face with Jesus and that's where it all begins and there's multiple ways of doing that but I think I get I get frustrated and the older I get the more simple I kid about certain basic things and in Wheatly I can get on a hobby horse about this because we tend to whatever is the latest greatest thing it becomes a surrogate for discipleship and we need to get back to biblical discipleship getting guys connected with Jesus and staying with him things that we've done is trying to teach our men the discipline of silence and so various ways this works to pray have a time in the scripture and then just sit for 10 minutes and wow if you tried it you know but I have found for men that discipline it's huge they they're never silent the radio is always on the phone is always with and the kids are always talking and as far as just really sensing God's presence being aware of his conviction his leadership in our culture I think silence is is a big deal and most of our guys including most of us are scared to death of it so for what it's worth I would encourage silence not right now trying to give us some application break the application ok several have asked about bromance how do you choose your bromance how many bros do you have inside or outside the church do you seek out a group of peers in addition to lay leaders some more details about the bromance I'm really sorry I said that yeah for me are there's my there's an elder team that I'm that keep me accountable these are lay guys so they can fire me I can't fire them in the in the sense of they don't work for the church and we get together once a week for prayer and do the silence thing and then every other week we do discipleship together and just kind of help each other believe the gospel keep each other accountable we pair up at different times there's there's three of them other than me and we pair up at different times and do accountability and switch off and whatnot and so I think it's important to have that on your team but I also think it's important to have guys outside of your team and so I have other pastors that I talked to for a while I hadn't kind of a a group that I met with regularly now it's more hit and miss and I think that's good to do with guys across the country but I also think some other pastors in your city are really good and then I just got some normal business guys that are just in the church they kind of understand some of the complex complexities of a large church that I talked to about that kind of those so I think different guys for different purposes I think we're looking for like one guy that can do everything well his name is Jesus and he he's closer than a brother but you need some guys you need some Jesus with skin on with some men around you and so you just have to figure it out but I think it's multiple relationships multiple groups in and out of the church in and out of vocational ministry other councillor experiences relation to friendships or accountability I really love what you have to say although we don't have a bromance not yet hmm your son and I do so I know that ain't true I really want to underscore the city I think sometimes one of these I've learned and I'm watching young guys or others don't make the people that you surround yourself with so narrow that it ends up being spiritual cloning you have to be very careful of that I think you need to choose wisely and I think that the most healthy accountable relationships are those that you enter in where you have defined what you need and so you're not abdicating your will but you've you've looked at what you need and you've taken that assessment and so you're you're you're getting what you need and there are powerful personalities and you got to be careful I tell younger guys all the time don't ever give your will over to anybody except the Lord and so I think and if you're hurting be very careful about who you submit yourself to and I have found it healthy and my life to have different voices you know I mean believe in the gospel and this kind of thing but people different for me different voices coming at things from a different way it helps me to be whole in second Timothy 2:2 it's plural not faithful man but faithful men and and so I think that that's that's advice I would pass on just add one other thing and this incidentally is very important for your sons as parents are concerned with the friendships that they are developing and I was thinking of a very important point you made in your talk about masculinity as an imprinted thing it's something you learn it's something that's culturally instilled NIP it's biblically culturally instilled it resonates with how God make makes us but it doesn't just come automatic come on so friendships matter and one of the things that you don't want to do is have the imprinting going all one-way if you've got a dominant person and everybody else is just copycatting then he's he's the the seal and they're they're taking the imprint well true friendship is iron sharpening iron the imprinting goes both ways it's give and take and and one one person affects the other and then the next week it goes the other way that's that shoulder-to-shoulder true friendship and that the need for that doesn't go away my strong conviction of principles and I find that one way of not having that dominant is to have the scriptures and principles be the subject of what you're discussing so am i submitting to biblical principles how are we applying biblical principles so we're accountable to each other but more to the Lord and when we discuss our accountability it's to the Lord rather than to each other so you know I'm struggling with this principle and then we work of how to do it well I'm not able to apply this principle and I think a principle centered relationship between men lifts you up rather than simply a situational centered one to capture those last couple of things everybody should probably read CS Lewis the four loves because the chapter on friendship there is supposed to eros captures that I think men relate shoulders shoulder with a common quest vision passion whatever it happens to be and women sit face to face tend to her he said the romant romantic does but trying to make relationships happen with men when the relationship is the end is is not going to last it's not gonna last it there needs to be weather use the word principles scripture a mission project something there that they bond deeply when they have a common passion so I think forcing the relational thing as a constant get together and talk about your relationship just will abort eventually something that very quickly going back to my comment earlier about first Corinthians 11 if you look at a book written by a man for a male audience and compare it to a book written by a woman for a female audience you can see this stark difference what's the what's the book for men about well it's about the mission it's about winning the war or spiking the guns are getting the cattle back or finding the gold and it can be great literature it can be Louis L'Amour Western type of stuff it's always about the mission and when the woman enters into it it's to help with to help get the gold back or find the cattle or you know the plucky ranchers daughter comes in and helps and that is that is how men think and then when when a woman writes for women it's and it could be great literature or some gothic you know bodice Buster romance sort of thing it could be Pride and Prejudice it could be something else the relationship is the plot first they like each other then they don't like each other and then they like each other again and so what what you have to do is say okay how can we get these two worlds together the men men could be friends for years a common hobby or hunting or some activity a common sport and its shoulder to shoulder and they they are true friends they are real friends and they know each other there's a lot of comments they pick up by the way side to side but it's shoulder to shoulder and and the interesting thing is when a man and a woman come together and it's face to face in the courtship and the initial part of the marriage and then he veers off to the mission and she's saying what happened you know I thought that this was the way is going to be well that those two worlds have to come together and occupy the same space a final question for fathers who are in fathering recovery any practical counsel for helping dads as they seek to restore what the locusts have eaten besides bathing our souls in the gospel where to from here in taking practical steps to rebuild our relationships with grown children that we sense we may not have fathered well I would say don't be afraid to say and own what everybody knows anyway so if you have sinned or stumbled or failed or whatever the issue is say so one of the things that fathers tend to do when they failed is they they flare up or whatever it is that they've done and then they hope it just blows over well I don't feel and the next week of the next month of the next year I'm not feeling the same place so I'm just gonna act differently and hope nobody notices but it really is important to acknowledge sin to God if we confess our sins he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness so we do that God word confess as possible to your wife to your spouse what God has taught you about what happened and then as God gives opportunity go to your kids and talk to them and say this is this is where we are now we all know that this is where we are now let me own with you my responsibility I'm not here to bring accusations but I'm here to simply own my part in this and then just after that leave it in God's hands God takes us from where we are not from where we should have been I was gonna say start where you are in the relationship the problem is I think sometimes we when we blow it and we feel bad about it we feel guilty we acknowledge it you want to backtrack and start all over again I don't think you need to start all over again I think you need to start right where you are and realize that that the burden to rebuild trust is on your shoulders again we want to be the desired destination from here on out at which we want others to arrive I think being patient with yourself and demonstrating love and the willingness to change and the willingness to meet them where they are I think that that's that's important you know we've all made mistakes I've made a ton of mistakes of my kids adult kids and sometimes you don't find this stuff out until the thirty years old and you find yourself apologizing and saying that you know humility is your ally none of us are the fourth members of the Trinity and we need to stop acting like it keep offering to meet keep calling keep emailing keep inviting if they don't want to that be one say face to face eyeball to eyeball I love you whether they believe it or not and admit that they might not believe it and just say it anyway or whatever was missing so I think I think I talked about besetting sins it's odd how many strong men are wimpy when it comes to that sort of thing that is if if a strong man gets shut down by a woman say you're dating single strong man and and you somebody men who just go home and lick their wounds there's like that's right and I'm I did my best and and a glory in the self-pity of that moment same with kids kids do something even as a teenager say 14 year old or 15 year old there's something in a lot of guys probably living too out of knowledge to know it from inside me who when when you've been hurt to to retreat and to lick the wound and to feel sorry and you justify yourself in a save tried and then to do your thing leave the relationship and and that walk away as much as it feels emotionally right and the alternative emotional impossible I think manhood just says no I'm not gonna do that you just walk right back into that again and again and again that's from the hardest thing in the world to do is to keep walking into painful relationships and so I don't have grown kids the oldest is 11 but I've seen what my wife and I spare ins have done for us and so when they serve us meaning you know we were poor and in seminary taking us out to eat and you know you know giving us giving us a nice Christmas buying clothes for us we couldn't buy and then we had our kids them coming and and watching our kids and so that we could have a date night I mean that is a big deal as you're trying because as you get older you realized how screwed up everything was and you start getting 30 and you start getting married and you start seeing things things come up and then and I just think that an Abe that enables a soft heart as it has for us because we we were wounded as everybody is because you know we're all in dysfunctional families there's no family's perfect and that serving has softened us to receive those conversations and even to initiate some of those close in prayer father it's a good note to end on our utter dependence upon doing what we don't have it within ourselves to do those who wait upon the Lord will renew their strength doesn't come from within us doesn't come from their masculine self-sufficient soul or a or a feminine tender so it comes from God and it makes men women able to do what they're not able to do and so I pray for these brothers and the sisters that are here that their children and their parents would feel the difference of this conference in the best possible way may everything that's been said be put through the sieve of the Scriptures and may the Holy Spirit may you father by the Holy Spirit because of the grace of Jesus apply powerfully transforming lis Christ exalting Li to every person here and may the churches from which they come feel the sweetness of the fruit of what you've wrought here may wives back home say what happened to you this is sweet grant that there would be ripple effects beyond anything we could imagine including for the nation's we pray this in Jesus name

Channel: Desiring God

Views: 13,043

Rating: 4.6923075 out of 5

Keywords: Conference Message, John Piper, Desiring God, Bethlehem Baptist Church, Christian, Christianity, Church, Bible, Jesus Christ, God, Scripture

Id: c7wzMxa6Sag

Length: 60min 24sec (3624 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 01 2013